Re: [Open-graphics] Announcement: Finally ready to announce OGD1 pre-orders
time between when we place our order for 100 boards and when we get (...) leaves us with a $6 bill to pay before we have any revenue, and that makes one card = 600 USD ? - The retail price is $1500, but the first 100 pre-orders will get a $100 discount. For deeper discounts, you can put in a request with the OHF. There are two discount levels, $1000 and $700 (depending on your level of involvement in the OGP), but we are placing strict limits on them. (If we can get all 100 pre-orders, the deepest discount will probably go down to $600.) so that's a... 900 USD profit margin... or is there something I'm missing there ? What we are missing is the demand curve. The goal is to make enough profit to be able to get an ASIC made and then make the OGC card. IIRC the estimate was something like US$2M. So we have to sell a couple thousand OGD cards. Set the price higher and we don't have to sell as many cards, but demand might go down faster than profit goes up. Set the price lower and demand goes up so you can sell more cards, but you *have* to sell more cards to be able to build OGC. No one knows how many cards would be sold at various prices, so it is a guessing game. OGD is expensive for a consumer product, but it isn't a consumer product, it is a professional tool. I've seen professional tools with much higher profit margins than OGD. ___ Open-graphics mailing list Open-graphics@duskglow.com http://lists.duskglow.com/mailman/listinfo/open-graphics List service provided by Duskglow Consulting, LLC (www.duskglow.com)
Re: [Open-graphics] Announcement: Finally ready to announce OGD1 pre-orders
So, to partially reiterate, here's what we need to produce: - Articles and interviews - Ads - An electronic brochure That's the harder part to do. Each ads will point to the product page on the web site but we need also a datasheet of the card. This data sheet must be as precise as possible. (schematics, connectors description, precise chip model, etc...). White paper for basic use should also be produice, etc... - Web pages with detailed information - Publicity info about OGP, OHF, etc. - A convincing argument that will make every FOSS enthusiast want to buy an OGD1 board. ___ Open-graphics mailing list Open-graphics@duskglow.com http://lists.duskglow.com/mailman/listinfo/open-graphics List service provided by Duskglow Consulting, LLC (www.duskglow.com)
Re: [Open-graphics] Announcement: Finally ready to announce OGD1 pre-orders
On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:34:42 -0400 Timothy Normand Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The OGD1 design has actually been finished for a couple of months now. Congrats. - Publicity info about OGP, OHF, etc. Where shall we start? The 2008 Libre Graphics Meeting (LGM) is in Wrocław, Poland, 8-11th May. There should still be a small time slot available to talk about OGD. I realize the audience would be more interested in an ASIC version, except maybe Blender developers. The 2006 event was the launch of the Elephants Dream projet, maybe the 2008 LGM could be used to propel OGD to the front scene ? http://www.libregraphicsmeeting.org/ http://www.libregraphicsmeeting.org/2008/index.php?lang=enaction=contact Cheers F ___ Open-graphics mailing list Open-graphics@duskglow.com http://lists.duskglow.com/mailman/listinfo/open-graphics List service provided by Duskglow Consulting, LLC (www.duskglow.com)
Re: [Open-graphics] Announcement: Finally ready to announce OGD1 pre-orders
On 4/12/08, Raphaël Jacquot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Timothy Normand Miller wrote: time between when we place our order for 100 boards and when we get (...) leaves us with a $6 bill to pay before we have any revenue, and that makes one card = 600 USD ? Sortof. The parts cost is not the only thing we'll end up paying per board to get it to the customer. And we're also accounting for a certain failure rate. The specific details are not something we feel we should discuss openly. - The retail price is $1500, but the first 100 pre-orders will get a $100 discount. For deeper discounts, you can put in a request with the OHF. There are two discount levels, $1000 and $700 (depending on your level of involvement in the OGP), but we are placing strict limits on them. (If we can get all 100 pre-orders, the deepest discount will probably go down to $600.) so that's a... 900 USD profit margin... I wish! or is there something I'm missing there ? Tons. You've just demonstrated why we don't publicly discuss this. :) -- Timothy Normand Miller http://www.cse.ohio-state.edu/~millerti Open Graphics Project ___ Open-graphics mailing list Open-graphics@duskglow.com http://lists.duskglow.com/mailman/listinfo/open-graphics List service provided by Duskglow Consulting, LLC (www.duskglow.com)
Re: [Open-graphics] Announcement: Finally ready to announce OGD1 pre-orders
- OGD1 is for hardware hackers. This isn't just about graphics. If all you wanted was a graphics card that worked with Free Software, we've had that for a long time with Matrox, for some time with Intel, and most recently and significantly with ATI. And VIA has very recently (announced on Tuesday) seen the light, although I don't think they have released any docs yet. All this makes me wonder about the market for OGC. Will it have enough unique features to sell, given the new competition? - Some technical stuff: The TV chip still has not been tested. It's probably just fine, but we don't know for sure. $1500 for untested hardware. Hmmm I've been looking at the data sheet, and they talk about 800x600 and 1024x768. But s-video out is either x480 for NTSC or x576 for PAL/SECAM (right?). Do they scale 800x600 and 1024x768 down to fit, or what? One thing I've been trying to figure out is the maximum horizontal resolution for s-video. The standard is 720x480 (or x576), but there isn't any hard limit, and some analog TVs can go much higher. Can a normal (e.g. ATI) graphics card output, say, 1600x480 to s-video? If not, can OGD OGC do it and make that a selling point? So, to partially reiterate, here's what we need to produce: - Articles and interviews - Ads - An electronic brochure - Web pages with detailed information - Publicity info about OGP, OHF, etc. - A convincing argument that will make every FOSS enthusiast want to buy an OGD1 board. - Documentation hardware pinouts for the expansion connector(s) I assume the missing one can be added by the user? Voltages, min/max temp, humidity, and such software How does the end user program the thing? Provide a simple Hello, World! type example. Do the tools run on their preferred OS? Things to avoid doing so it doesn't become a paperweight. A clear warranty/return policy spelling out what happens when the user does manage to make a paperweight. - Diagnostics - A starter list of things one can use the board for (may require additional programming and/or hardware) - graphics card - FPGA projects (examples?) - high speed D/A outputs signal generator sine, square, pulse, triangle, sawtooth, ... ATSC DVB-T NTSC, PAL, SECAM AM, FM SSB, VSB other? - PCI bus sniffer - what else? - mailing list(s) and/or web forum(s) for users (seperate from the development forums) ___ Open-graphics mailing list Open-graphics@duskglow.com http://lists.duskglow.com/mailman/listinfo/open-graphics List service provided by Duskglow Consulting, LLC (www.duskglow.com)
Re: [Open-graphics] Announcement: Finally ready to announce OGD1 pre-orders
Dieter wrote: - OGD1 is for hardware hackers. This isn't just about graphics. If all you wanted was a graphics card that worked with Free Software, we've had that for a long time with Matrox, for some time with Intel, and most recently and significantly with ATI. And VIA has very recently (announced on Tuesday) seen the light, although I don't think they have released any docs yet. All this makes me wonder about the market for OGC. Will it have enough unique features to sell, given the new competition? - Some technical stuff: The TV chip still has not been tested. It's probably just fine, but we don't know for sure. $1500 for untested hardware. Hmmm I've been looking at the data sheet, and they talk about 800x600 and 1024x768. But s-video out is either x480 for NTSC or x576 for PAL/SECAM (right?). Do they scale 800x600 and 1024x768 down to fit, or what? One thing I've been trying to figure out is the maximum horizontal resolution for s-video. The standard is 720x480 (or x576), but there isn't any hard limit, and some analog TVs can go much higher. Can a normal (e.g. ATI) graphics card output, say, 1600x480 to s-video? If not, can OGD OGC do it and make that a selling point? So, to partially reiterate, here's what we need to produce: - Articles and interviews - Ads - An electronic brochure - Web pages with detailed information - Publicity info about OGP, OHF, etc. - A convincing argument that will make every FOSS enthusiast want to buy an OGD1 board. - Documentation hardware pinouts for the expansion connector(s) I assume the missing one can be added by the user? Voltages, min/max temp, humidity, and such software How does the end user program the thing? Provide a simple Hello, World! type example. The ideal Hello, World! would be a plain vga card with no pipelining and stuff. You just get a framebuffer you can access like any other memory. Do the tools run on their preferred OS? Things to avoid doing so it doesn't become a paperweight. A clear warranty/return policy spelling out what happens when the user does manage to make a paperweight. - Diagnostics - A starter list of things one can use the board for (may require additional programming and/or hardware) - graphics card - FPGA projects (examples?) - high speed D/A outputs signal generator sine, square, pulse, triangle, sawtooth, ... ATSC DVB-T NTSC, PAL, SECAM AM, FM SSB, VSB other? - PCI bus sniffer - what else? - mailing list(s) and/or web forum(s) for users (seperate from the development forums) __ ___ Open-graphics mailing list Open-graphics@duskglow.com http://lists.duskglow.com/mailman/listinfo/open-graphics List service provided by Duskglow Consulting, LLC (www.duskglow.com)
[Open-graphics] Announcement: Finally ready to announce OGD1 pre-orders
The OGD1 design has actually been finished for a couple of months now. In that time, we've been chasing a chick-and-egg problem. We can take all the orders we want, but there's as much as an 8-week lead time between when we place our order for 100 boards and when we get them so that we can test and then ship them. It would be inappropriate to charge our own customers until we ship to them. That leaves us with a $6 bill to pay before we have any revenue, and that's too much for Andy, Howard, and I to float on our own. We didn't want to make a formal announcement for pre-orders until we solved this problem. We have now solved the problem and are ready to take pre-orders. Traversal's web site is almost ready, and the OHF is working on their part, so to get things started, I thought we should discuss marketing strategy on the mailing list. We need to make multiple simultaneous, high-profile announcements and word them so as to strongly encourage Free Software and Open Hardware enthusiasts to place a pre-order for an OGD1 board. This involves web sites, articles, ads (where we can place them for free), and lots of informative materials on what OGD1 is and what they can expect to get out of it. This is a major milestone for open hardware and free software. We need to make it count. I believe that it is important for the health of the FOSS community that we maintain momentum on these efforts. Selling OGD1 and then reinvesting that profit into more open hardware designs will have a snowball effect on the ability of computer and electronics hackers everywhere to be able to use, study, modify, and share the hardware they buy. Here are some facts about this pre-order situation: - We have a quote from the fabricator for 100 boards, so we need to get 100 pre-orders. In fact, fewer would cover the cost (there is a profit margin), but there's a risk of people canceling orders while they're waiting. Also, we can place a smaller order, but that will increase the per-unit cost to us, which will affect at least our developer discount price. There's also the risk of people placing bogus pre-orders, and the solution to that is to place holds (not charges) on each of the credit card orders just before we go ahead with the fabrication; if we meet the minimum threshold, we do it. - The retail price is $1500, but the first 100 pre-orders will get a $100 discount. For deeper discounts, you can put in a request with the OHF. There are two discount levels, $1000 and $700 (depending on your level of involvement in the OGP), but we are placing strict limits on them. (If we can get all 100 pre-orders, the deepest discount will probably go down to $600.) - These are pre-orders, not orders. That means the lead time is unpredictable. We don't have a stock. We will purchase a stock based on the number of pre-orders we get. Also, this means that if we never get a large enough number of pre-orders, we will be unable to fulfill them; all pre-orders would be canceled, and no one would be charged anything. - There are issues with regard to international sales that we have yet to work out. On the other hand, if we get most of our orders internationally, we'll be highly motivated to learn what we need to know to handle it properly. We know people who know this. We just don't know it ourselves yet. - The HDL code that we want to pre-program into OGD1 isn't finished. It's likely that we'll have it finished before we get 100 pre-orders, but there is a chance that it won't be. We need to he honest about this without scaring people off. Basically, what you're ordering is a blank FPGA board that you can program to do what you want. If you don't know how to program it, you can't get it to do anything. - We often get inquiries about the use of OGD1 as a graphics card. It can easily-enough function as a graphics card, but for most such uses, it is badly over-priced. On the other hand, OGD1 is very competitively priced as an FPGA development kit. We need to make it clear what OGD1 is and why buying one is an important step for Free Software. - OGD1 is for hardware hackers. This isn't just about graphics. If all you wanted was a graphics card that worked with Free Software, we've had that for a long time with Matrox, for some time with Intel, and most recently and significantly with ATI. Where our graphics pipeline will be competitive is in embedded systems. As for long-term goals of this project, there are many different types of peripherals for which we do not have good Free Software support; for instance, wifi. But let's not get ahead of ourselves here. OGD1 is for hardware hackers. It's for the community of people who want to tinker with their own hardware ideas, students who want to learn, and professionals who need a prototyping platform. And of course full schematics and design details for OGD1 are offered under the GPL. - Some technical stuff: The TV chip still has not been tested. It's probably
Re: [Open-graphics] Announcement: Finally ready to announce OGD1 pre-orders
From: Timothy Normand Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Open-graphics] Announcement: Finally ready to announce OGD1 pre-orders Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:34:42 -0400 Good News, Congratulations!! Althrough the price is high, this product will be written in the history. I think the main market of the first release should be aimed at universities and academic agents. The professors on academic perfer freedom more than engineers in company :-) With supporting of the academic funds, they may afford the high price. If you can bring this card to the Siggraph 2008, that will be a good advertising and may attract many eye-balls. Try to send a paper to the journals on Computer Graphics. As a anti-traditional hardware project, maybe they will accept it with glad. To be honest, being a student, I can't afford this price. But i will keep an eye on this project and will contribute codes and ideas one day. Now, I'm fighting for my degree and hacking Linux kernel codes. A huge mount of docs, academic papers, codes need to be read God bless.. So, to partially reiterate, here's what we need to produce: - Articles and interviews - Ads - An electronic brochure - Web pages with detailed information - Publicity info about OGP, OHF, etc. - A convincing argument that will make every FOSS enthusiast want to buy an OGD1 board. Richard Stallman and the FSF are still interested in helping us with the publicity. We need to provide him with appropriate materials. For some of this, we already have things that can be modified to include updated info. Where shall we start? ___ Open-graphics mailing list Open-graphics@duskglow.com http://lists.duskglow.com/mailman/listinfo/open-graphics List service provided by Duskglow Consulting, LLC (www.duskglow.com)
Re: [Open-graphics] Announcement: Finally ready to announce OGD1 pre-orders
Timothy Normand Miller wrote: time between when we place our order for 100 boards and when we get (...) leaves us with a $6 bill to pay before we have any revenue, and that makes one card = 600 USD ? - The retail price is $1500, but the first 100 pre-orders will get a $100 discount. For deeper discounts, you can put in a request with the OHF. There are two discount levels, $1000 and $700 (depending on your level of involvement in the OGP), but we are placing strict limits on them. (If we can get all 100 pre-orders, the deepest discount will probably go down to $600.) so that's a... 900 USD profit margin... or is there something I'm missing there ? ___ Open-graphics mailing list Open-graphics@duskglow.com http://lists.duskglow.com/mailman/listinfo/open-graphics List service provided by Duskglow Consulting, LLC (www.duskglow.com)
Re: [Open-graphics] Announcement: Finally ready to announce OGD1 pre-orders
Raphaël Jacquot wrote: Timothy Normand Miller wrote: time between when we place our order for 100 boards and when we get (...) leaves us with a $6 bill to pay before we have any revenue, and that makes one card = 600 USD ? - The retail price is $1500, but the first 100 pre-orders will get a $100 discount. For deeper discounts, you can put in a request with the OHF. There are two discount levels, $1000 and $700 (depending on your level of involvement in the OGP), but we are placing strict limits on them. (If we can get all 100 pre-orders, the deepest discount will probably go down to $600.) so that's a... 900 USD profit margin... or is there something I'm missing there ? Or 900USD for time, shipping, handling, testing, first prototype cost and some basic working code... Also in that you need the factor in the need for some money to bootstrap the chip production who is near 1 or 2 millions. So for a card with all the feature there is, 1500$ for corporate user it is rather cheap. For the developer the cost of 1000$ or 700$ is rather step for some but for that kind of hardware it is still expected to cost that much or even more. You need to remember the goal of transversal is to make money to pay it's employee, OGP goal is to make a open graphics core. OHF goal is to enable some openness in the hardware market for computer part. That card is another step for everyone goal. ___ Open-graphics mailing list Open-graphics@duskglow.com http://lists.duskglow.com/mailman/listinfo/open-graphics List service provided by Duskglow Consulting, LLC (www.duskglow.com)
