date:20070430

On 4/30/07, kjettil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On http://www.fast.st/zapbeta/index.php?n=Support-Engine/HomePage one
 can read that a ZAPWIKI is coming soon! The site tells that
 ZAPWIKI is /not designed to be a replacement for PmWiki/. Is it to
 become a lean competitor to PmWiki, or what is the purpose of this new
 wiki software?

ZAPwiki is something I'm developing as kind of an experiment to see if
a wiki couldn't be made a lot simpler. I have a few radical ideas and
want to try it out as proof of concept. I do not envision it
becoming a serious competitor to PmWiki which is certainly more
robust, secure, and flexible.  However, ZAPwiki will have some nice
advantages (mostly simplicity and ease of use for non programmers),
and may be preferable in certain situations.

However, as I've mentioned before, questions about it should be
directed to me personally as I don't think it's appropriate to do
anything that promotes it on this list at least. I'll respond to
questions, but would prefer them submitted via comments on the spec
pages for ZAPwiki or personal emails to me.

 In the Cookbook, you find that  ZAP is now called Acme, for some
 reason (see above?). There are still some pure ZAP pages, such as ZAP
 Business Directory (which btw doesn't at all fits the Cookbook
 structure).  Will Acme develop independently of ZAP, or will it be
 the PmWiki version of ZAP in ZAPWIKI?

ZAP Business Directory was put up by another person, and probably is
out of date.

For information about why I switched the name to Acme, see
http://www.fast.st/zapbeta/index.php?n=Main/Coyote. There is also some
helpful information at the bottom of the Acme recipe page.

I will continue to support ZAP as an Acme's form processing script for
PmWiki as long as it serves a niche in the community here. I'm
wrapping up development of it however, and hope to have it become a
more permanent script as soon as PmWiki comes out of beta, or
shortly thereafter.

 The above situation is confusing (as is e.g the Hg vs Cluster case).

Both are very similar but somewhat different approaches.  See the
http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/HierarchicalGroups page for a
comparison.

 PmWiki is a powerful and stable web site engine, with a huge set of
 useful extensions. It's a pity if confusion would be created about its
 future.

Theres no confusion in anyone's mind that I know of regarding the
future of PmWiki. I still think it's the best web management system
out there. While ZAPwiki will have some advantages--even that will be
good for PmWiki as it may stimulate even further development within
the community.


On 4/30/07, Kathryn Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 My understanding is that Dan renamed ZAP to Acme simply because he
 wanted to appear first in all the lists in the Cookbook, rather than
 letting ZAP stand on its own merits.  You are not the first person to
 point out that this is confusing, and you probably won't be the last,
 because Dan is not listening to the suggestions to revert the name back
 to ZAP.

Actually Kathryn, that is not completely fair.  : ).  First, there
were several reasons--the biggest is suggested in the link I mentioned
above at zapsite.  Second, I have actually had as much or more
positive feedback on the name change than negative, with several
encouraging me NOT to change it back. Actually my associate is
encouraging me to rename Hg to AcmeHg and MarkupExpressionsExtensions
to AcmeExtensions, etc., and I must admit I find the idea kind of
unifying.  : )

 As for Hg versus Cluster, I know I am partly to blame for this, for
 having created Cluster in the first place.  However, I vaguely recall
 that Dan recently said he wasn't interested in mainting Hg any more.  Is
 this correct?  If so, maybe we could clean up the confusion by factoring
 out the differences between Hg and Cluster so that they aren't so
 similar any more.

Well, my associate has taken over maintenance of Hg, as noted on the
page.  And as it's only had one bug fix in recent memory (that others
discovered, solved, and fixed) it's not a lot of work anyway.

Also, Hg and Cluster have both grown in somewhat different directions
since their initial releases, and it would now be to disruptive to try
and merge them.  They both deal with breadcrumbs, group titles, etc
very differently and Hg has features like virtual wikis, link
prefixing, and natural cleanurls I would not want to drop, nor you to
add.

Cheers,
Dan

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

2007-04-30 Thread Ben Wilson

On 4/30/07, The Editor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...]

 Actually Kathryn, that is not completely fair.  : ).  First, there
 were several reasons--the biggest is suggested in the link I mentioned
 above at zapsite.  Second, I have actually had as much or more
 positive feedback on the name change than negative, with several
 encouraging me NOT to change it back. Actually my associate is
 encouraging me to rename Hg to AcmeHg and MarkupExpressionsExtensions
 to AcmeExtensions, etc., and I must admit I find the idea kind of
 unifying.  : )
[...]

 Well, my associate has taken over maintenance of Hg, as noted on the
 page.  And as it's only had one bug fix in recent memory (that others
 discovered, solved, and fixed) it's not a lot of work anyway.

In the interest of full disclosure, I looked at your 'associate,' Wile
E. Coyote. This is the fellow who you say encourages keeping the Acme
moniker, and who you say has taken over Hg maintenance. However, his
profile redirects to PmWiki:Profiles.Caveman. Caveman is your handle,
unless my email archive is totally mistaken.

I would like to discourage your continued use of references to a
certain popular cartoon series. Assume you become successful with your
wiki clone, you will undoubtedly incur the wrath of the holder of the
trademarked names and copyrights of the images you display.

As for unifying by naming a set of recipes maintained by you, I
would also discourage that. I presently maintain several recipes, but
you wouldn't tell by the recipe names. This sounds more like you're
carving out a fief than contributing to the growth and prosperity of
the PmWiki Community. Even if you are not, the impression is conveyed.
What happens if you reach a point, as Hans recently has, of where
you're not able to fully support your recipes and decide the community
is better served by allowing others to carry the load a while? This
community has flourished due to selfless, cooperative support.

ZAP sounds like a fork of PmWiki, judging from the approach taken by
the site. While GPL allows for code forks, it's generally done when
there is dissent in the developer community, or when the owner of the
code fails to support the community. Pm has put years of work into
making PmWiki the flexible, powerful tool it is; and he proves his
support to his user base by his daily involvement in the list.

I have to say I'm with Kathryn on this issue. Pmwiki thrives on an
open, cooperative environment. I recently applauded Pm for having
fostered an open-source community that embodies those characteristics
of a good community. Forking and fiefing are contra-productive in this
environment.

Apart from that, I didn't realize that Hg allowed inheritance of
higher group's configuration. This discussion led me to investigate
further.

Kind Regards,

-- 
Ben Wilson
Words are the only thing which will last forever Churchill

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Enableing pmWiki for SSL

On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 09:02:06AM +0200, Dominique Faure wrote:
 On 4/30/07, H. Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I switched the contitional to this:
 
   if (!$_SERVER[HTTPS] == 'on' || @$_SERVER['SERVER_PORT'] != '443') {
 
 You hurt my boolean algebra here: not(a or b) = not(a) AND not(b)
 so I would merely write:
 
 if (!$_SERVER[HTTPS] == 'on'  @$_SERVER['SERVER_PORT'] != '443') {

Or even:

if (@$_SERVER['HTTPS'] != 'on'  @$_SERVER['SERVER_PORT'] != '443') {

And, for versions of PmWiki after 2.2.0-beta18, one can do the
equivalent with:

if ($UrlScheme != 'https') {

Pm

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

Monday, April 30, 2007, 11:37:49 AM, The wrote:

 On 4/30/07, Kathryn Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 My understanding is that Dan renamed ZAP to Acme simply because he
 wanted to appear first in all the lists in the Cookbook, rather than
 letting ZAP stand on its own merits.  You are not the first person to
 point out that this is confusing, and you probably won't be the last,
 because Dan is not listening to the suggestions to revert the name back
 to ZAP.

 Actually Kathryn, that is not completely fair.  : ).  First, there
 were several reasons--the biggest is suggested in the link I mentioned
 above at zapsite.  Second, I have actually had as much or more
 positive feedback on the name change than negative, with several
 encouraging me NOT to change it back. Actually my associate is
 encouraging me to rename Hg to AcmeHg and MarkupExpressionsExtensions
 to AcmeExtensions, etc., and I must admit I find the idea kind of
 unifying.  : )

I am not sure if there is any point in trying to take serious a paragraph
in which the author refers to himself as my associate. Further more
I like to dissuade any contributing author on pmwiki.org to use more
than one Profile name, purely for the sake of avoiding confusion.

As for the recipe name change, which Dan did not address in his reply
to Kathryn, unless you accept a reference as an argument, I wrote and
write again, because I don't believe in white-washing history:

For the record:
Dan was asked by a number of list members to change the name of the
new MarkupExpressionsExtensions recipe to ZapExtensions, and he
answered:
 If you wish, but it tends to get buried down at the bottom of the
 list. I'd rather keep it here, [...]

In a follow on Dr Fred C wrote:
 So long as the pmwiki search engine continues to provide a rather simplistic
 alphabetical listing without attention to relevance, the most viable option 
 for ZAP
 like projects to get proper (or improper) notice might be to consider an 
 aaZAP name
 change, or perhaps use the Roadrunner/Wiley Coyote line of reasoning with 
 AcmeTools

So we can safely give Dr Fred C credit for the idea to rename the ZAP
page Acme, and deduct that Dan's prime motive for doing so is to get
ZAP to the top of pagelists in PmWiki. Since the cookbook sidebar is
now showing categories using pagelists I suspect Dan felt ZAP will not get
noticed enough.

The naming confusion will remain with us, unless the Acme cookbook
page gets renamed back to ZAP, as this is apparently the true name of
the script, as it is referred to on zapsite as ZAP, and internally
named as ZAP etc.

At the moment, we got a cookbook recipe which requires anyone
interested in it (and there will be quite a few, as the recipe claims
to do so many things one might like to add to PmWiki) to visit an
external site to find more information, and to download the script
code. There he/she looks at something named completely different,
which may be confusing (as he was looking for Acme).
Furthermore he finds himself not on zapsite.org, but on
fast.st/zapbeta, which may add to his confusion.

Maybe not so surprising knowing that coyote is referred to as
the trickster in the mythology of many Native American peoples. :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickster
No doubt Dan will love this.
But I would still prefer a less confusing experience regards to ZAP.


 ~Hans



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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

On 4/30/07, Ben Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 4/30/07, The Editor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 [...]
 
  Actually Kathryn, that is not completely fair.  : ).  First, there
  were several reasons--the biggest is suggested in the link I mentioned
  above at zapsite.  Second, I have actually had as much or more
  positive feedback on the name change than negative, with several
  encouraging me NOT to change it back. Actually my associate is
  encouraging me to rename Hg to AcmeHg and MarkupExpressionsExtensions
  to AcmeExtensions, etc., and I must admit I find the idea kind of
  unifying.  : )
 [...]
 
  Well, my associate has taken over maintenance of Hg, as noted on the
  page.  And as it's only had one bug fix in recent memory (that others
  discovered, solved, and fixed) it's not a lot of work anyway.

 In the interest of full disclosure, I looked at your 'associate,' Wile
 E. Coyote. This is the fellow who you say encourages keeping the Acme
 moniker, and who you say has taken over Hg maintenance. However, his
 profile redirects to PmWiki:Profiles.Caveman. Caveman is your handle,
 unless my email archive is totally mistaken.

Clever detective work, my friend!  : )

 I would like to discourage your continued use of references to a
 certain popular cartoon series. Assume you become successful with your
 wiki clone, you will undoubtedly incur the wrath of the holder of the
 trademarked names and copyrights of the images you display.

No worries... ZAPwiki will not include any reference to anything
trademarked.  It's also not a clone--as the entire codebase is
redesigned from the ground up.  There are some similar concepts but
codewise it is virtually all new.

Also, I am not too concerned about its success. I'm not even sure if
I'll end up using it on my site (I'm leaning toward PmWiki).  I just
kept coming up against obstacles and complexities in PmWiki in regards
to various cutting edge ZAP functionalities. ZAP works in PmWiki, and
PmWiki is a great tool--but both could be integrated in ways that
would make a lot of things cleaner and simpler.

Also, there are several innovative features already in ZAPwiki that
cannot be readily reproduced in PmWiki apart from a slew of add on
recipes.  Some simply cannot be done in PmWiki as is. But that's
another topic.

 As for unifying by naming a set of recipes maintained by you, I
 would also discourage that. I presently maintain several recipes, but
 you wouldn't tell by the recipe names. This sounds more like you're
 carving out a fief than contributing to the growth and prosperity of
 the PmWiki Community. Even if you are not, the impression is conveyed.
 What happens if you reach a point, as Hans recently has, of where
 you're not able to fully support your recipes and decide the community
 is better served by allowing others to carry the load a while? This
 community has flourished due to selfless, cooperative support.

Perhaps you are right. On the other hand, some might see Acme as a
useful warning indicator:  a flashing red light--steer away from this
code! beta! ameteur!  If so, it might help to minimize the level of
support needed to maintain the recipes. : )

Of course, there's no question that the success of the PmWiki
community is its member's selfless, cooperative support of one
another. FWIW, my contributions are offered along these lines.

 ZAP sounds like a fork of PmWiki, judging from the approach taken by
 the site. While GPL allows for code forks, it's generally done when
 there is dissent in the developer community, or when the owner of the
 code fails to support the community. Pm has put years of work into
 making PmWiki the flexible, powerful tool it is; and he proves his
 support to his user base by his daily involvement in the list.

The reason for ZAPwiki is not dissent on my part, and certainly not a
lack of support on Pm's part.  He has my fullest gratitude and
respect. And while not so much a fork as a brand new wiki, the reason
for it's existense is simply I often find PmWiki too complex for most
simple tasks and it's codebase too dense for me to understand.

ZAP was created for the purpose of giving non-programmers easy access
to powerful commands in PmWiki. ZAPwiki is just an extension of that
goal--providing non-programmers even easier and simpler access to
those same capabilities.  All the professionals here at PmWiki I'm
sure will continue to use it for it's robustness, security, and
flexibility. I want to take a stab at developing something
easier--just to see if I can do it.

 I have to say I'm with Kathryn on this issue. Pmwiki thrives on an
 open, cooperative environment. I recently applauded Pm for having
 fostered an open-source community that embodies those characteristics
 of a good community. Forking and fiefing are contra-productive in this
 environment.

Pm has indeed done a wonderful job!  I certainly have no intention of
forking or fiefing. I have only referred to ZAPwiki in response to
others--and prefer to

Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

On 4/30/07, Hans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Monday, April 30, 2007, 11:37:49 AM, The wrote:

 I like to dissuade any contributing author on pmwiki.org to use more
 than one Profile name, purely for the sake of avoiding confusion.

I've noticed programmers tend to take themselves a bit too seriously
at times.  Poking in a bit of fun here and there might not be so bad
at times.

 As for the recipe name change, which Dan did not address in his reply
 to Kathryn, unless you accept a reference as an argument, I wrote and
 write again, because I don't believe in white-washing history:

As I've also explained before, I would not have made the change for
ANY page listing if it did not seem so wonderfully appropriate. The
truth is, as long as ZAP continues to be associated with the
unreliable, back-firing, bug-ridden contraptions Wile E Coyote managed
to get repeatedly from ACME, the name should stick, as a caution to
others considering its use.

 The naming confusion will remain with us, unless the Acme cookbook
 page gets renamed back to ZAP, as this is apparently the true name of
 the script, as it is referred to on zapsite as ZAP, and internally
 named as ZAP etc.

The redirect on the old ZAP page does help some with this otherwise
seemingly insurmountable confusion.  : )

Cheers,
Dan

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

2007-04-30 Thread Neil Herber (nospam)

On 2007-04-30 The Editor is rumoured to have said:
 Thanks for the input Ben... I've enjoyed learning about the ethics of open 
 source communities almost as much as the coding. A curious but interesting 
 environment. 

Hi Dan

A couple of questions that have come up a few times still have not been 
answered to my knowledge. Could you please clarify?

1) Is there any difference between ZAP and Acme?
2) If no, then could you use just one of the names?
3) Is there any need for 2 identities (you and the Coyote)?
4) If no, then could you use just one of the names?

 From what I have seen in questions posed here about ZAP and Acme, they 
are confusing people more than clarifying the reasons they both exist.

I think you would do yourself and PmWiki a favor by using one or the other.

-- 
Neil Herber
Corporate info at http://www.eton.ca/

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

On 4/30/07, Neil Herber (nospam) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 From what I have seen in questions posed here about ZAP and Acme, they
 are confusing people more than clarifying the reasons they both exist.

It strikes me as curious that the ones asking the questions and
participating in the discussion, generally, are the ones who have
quite a good handle on the situation. Perhaps there is not so much
confusion out there as the one's who don't like the names Acme 
Coyote suggest...

Makes me wonder why these dear folk have so much mysterious energy
about the issue--enough to go pouring through old email archives to
try and analyze the issue.  : )  Don't we really have better things to
do with our time?

Cheers,
Dan

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

2007-04-30 Thread Neil Herber (nospam)

The Editor wrote:
 On 4/30/07, Neil Herber (nospam) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 From what I have seen in questions posed here about ZAP and Acme, they
 are confusing people more than clarifying the reasons they both exist.
 
 It strikes me as curious that the ones asking the questions and
 participating in the discussion, generally, are the ones who have
 quite a good handle on the situation. Perhaps there is not so much
 confusion out there as the one's who don't like the names Acme 
 Coyote suggest...
 
 Makes me wonder why these dear folk have so much mysterious energy
 about the issue--enough to go pouring through old email archives to
 try and analyze the issue.  : )  Don't we really have better things to
 do with our time?
 
 Cheers,
 Dan
 

I take it from this response that you are not willing to answer my 
questions.

Because I do not use ZAP or Acme (or Fox or Hg or Cluster, for that 
matter) I have no way of knowing what they do and how they differ other 
than from what I can glean from the discussions here on PmWiki-users.

At the risk of being accused of pouring through old email archives I 
do recall several questions from users (that is, non-developers) about 
the differences between ZAP and Acme.

-- 
Neil Herber
Corporate info at http://www.eton.ca/

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

2007-04-30 Thread Petko Yotov

On Monday 30 April 2007 17:12, Neil Herber (nospam) wrote:
 A couple of questions that have come up a few times still have not been
 answered to my knowledge. Could you please clarify?

 1) Is there any difference between ZAP and Acme?
 2) If no, then could you use just one of the names?
 3) Is there any need for 2 identities (you and the Coyote)?
 4) If no, then could you use just one of the names?

  From what I have seen in questions posed here about ZAP and Acme, they
 are confusing people more than clarifying the reasons they both exist.


For the record, I share Kathryn's, Hans', Ben's and Niel's feelings. Earlier I 
was writing a message, but after reading the Ben's one I realized that he 
says the same in a better, much more polite way, so I didn't post it.

Regards,
Petko


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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

On 4/30/07, Neil Herber (nospam) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I take it from this response that you are not willing to answer my
 questions.

Sorry Neil.  Thought I had in other posts...

1) ZAP is the Script.  Acme is the recipe page, and possibly the label
for several of my recipes, such as AcmeCMS and AcmeTables already.
Perhaps AcmeExtensions and AcmeHg soon--though I've been urged against
fiefdom...

2) I could, but it's probably better to alert people to the potential
risk of using Acme like products. Please see the explanations at the
bottom of the Acme page for more info about the appropriateness of
this name.

3) No need. Just fun.

4) I could, but I like fun.  Really folks, we need to lighten up a
bit. On that note I should mention the farm system in ZAPwiki involves
putting the code engine in the Barn folder!  Or perhaps the RedBarn
folder.  What do you think Neil?

 Because I do not use ZAP or Acme (or Fox or Hg or Cluster, for that
 matter) I have no way of knowing what they do and how they differ other
 than from what I can glean from the discussions here on PmWiki-users.

The recipe pages provide that kind of information.  There could
perhaps be a form processor comparison page comparing ZAP and Fox
features, and Pm's forthcoming core stuff, but there is one already
for Hierarchical Groups comparing Hg and Cluster.

 At the risk of being accused of pouring through old email archives I
 do recall several questions from users (that is, non-developers) about
 the differences between ZAP and Acme.

True, at least one person--when the change first happened. And it was
answered comprehensively enough at the time (in my view).

And actually, thinking about it a bit more, making ZAP slightly harder
to find (by hiding it on the Acme page) may actually be a wise move as
those smart enough to find it are more likely smart enough to handle
all its bugs, security vulnerabilities and risky commands. Just an
added benefit to keeping it slightly obscured from the less skilled
and less persistent searcher.

Thanks again for all the interest in ZAP getting the proper exposure
and having the best findability possible. : )

Cheers,
Dan

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

2007-04-30 Thread pmwiki

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:12:07 -0400
Neil Herber (nospam) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 A couple of questions that have come up a few times still have
 not been answered to my knowledge. Could you please clarify?
 
 1) Is there any difference between ZAP and Acme?
 2) If no, then could you use just one of the names?
 3) Is there any need for 2 identities (you and the Coyote)?
 4) If no, then could you use just one of the names?
 
  From what I have seen in questions posed here about ZAP and
 Acme, they are confusing people more than clarifying the reasons
 they both exist.
 
 I think you would do yourself and PmWiki a favor by using one or
 the other.

I think that is a more general problem of the Pmwiki. The site has
too many ways of how to do things, and it does not explain clearly
when one is deprecated or there is a better way of doing it or
what is related to what. Dan is a more extreme example of that
by being a lightning rod [why? Because he manages in ruffling
too many feathers with statements such as I am making a new
wiki, or I want to be on top].

This is not just ZAP vs Acme vs ...

This is the benefit and the drawback of 'openness.' It would nice
if sometimes [but not too often] Patrick would 'lay down the law.'
On the other hand, this 'debate' is good to the community, it
shows that there are enough people who care.


BTW, I have not been able to use ZAP or Acme because it/they
changes to fast and too much.

-- 
Thanks

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

2007-04-30 Thread David Spitzley

 The Editor [EMAIL PROTECTED] 4/30/2007 11:20 AM 
On 4/30/07, Neil Herber (nospam) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 From what I have seen in questions posed here about ZAP and Acme, they
 are confusing people more than clarifying the reasons they both exist.

It strikes me as curious that the ones asking the questions and
participating in the discussion, generally, are the ones who have
quite a good handle on the situation. Perhaps there is not so much
confusion out there as the one's who don't like the names Acme 
Coyote suggest...

Makes me wonder why these dear folk have so much mysterious energy
about the issue--enough to go pouring through old email archives to
try and analyze the issue.  : )  Don't we really have better things to
do with our time?
-

I suspect two things are at work.  The first, and I recognize this is probably 
a bit unfair, is that since you have been extremely supportive, and by 
extension vocal, with ZAP, it sometimes seems like you're trying to steal Pm's 
thunder, even though I assume it's untrue.  However, having established that 
low-level lingering sense of discomfort in some of the regulars, you've now a) 
implemented a renaming that appears likely to add prominence to your 
contributions for purely alphabetical reasons, and b) created a second identity 
which you have without explanation been referring to in the third person, which 
are commonly known as sock puppets (see 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_%28Internet%29), and are usually seen 
as symptomatic of attempts to manipulate an audience.  The combination seems to 
be causing people to respond to you negatively because they think they see 
classic signs of excessive self-promotion.  

I am not accusing you of misdeeds here, but I'm trying to explain why you're 
getting the reception you are right now, so you can consider whether you're 
doing yourself more harm than good through some of the changes you've made.


David


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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

2007-04-30 Thread marc

The Editor said...
 On 4/30/07, Ben Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On 4/30/07, The Editor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I just
 kept coming up against obstacles and complexities in PmWiki in regards
 to various cutting edge ZAP functionalities. ZAP works in PmWiki, and
 PmWiki is a great tool--but both could be integrated in ways that
 would make a lot of things cleaner and simpler.

You need to cite, Dan. I've mentioned before that you can be light on 
facts, and things ain't improving. In any case, if you believe that 
PmWiki could do things cleaner and simpler, then why not be a fine 
upstanding OSS citizen and post you patches, so that Pm (and others) can 
assess them? If you took that approach, then I doubt anyone would notice 
you calling yourself a1a1a1a1caveman.

-- 
Cheers,
Marc


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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

2007-04-30 Thread Dominique Faure

On 4/30/07, The Editor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 4/30/07, Hans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Monday, April 30, 2007, 11:37:49 AM, The wrote:
 
  I like to dissuade any contributing author on pmwiki.org to use more
  than one Profile name, purely for the sake of avoiding confusion.

 I've noticed programmers tend to take themselves a bit too seriously
 at times.  Poking in a bit of fun here and there might not be so bad
 at times.


Could you confirm you're also not suffering from this specific annoyance?
Don't you truly embraced the programmer's community with your Maslow's
hammer like recipe suite?

Dominique ;)

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Enableing pmWiki for SSL

2007-04-30 Thread IchBin

Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 09:02:06AM +0200, Dominique Faure wrote:
 On 4/30/07, H. Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I switched the contitional to this:

  if (!$_SERVER[HTTPS] == 'on' || @$_SERVER['SERVER_PORT'] != '443') {
 You hurt my boolean algebra here: not(a or b) = not(a) AND not(b)
 so I would merely write:

 if (!$_SERVER[HTTPS] == 'on'  @$_SERVER['SERVER_PORT'] != '443') {
 
 Or even:
 
 if (@$_SERVER['HTTPS'] != 'on'  @$_SERVER['SERVER_PORT'] != '443') {
 
 And, for versions of PmWiki after 2.2.0-beta18, one can do the
 equivalent with:
 
 if ($UrlScheme != 'https') {
 
 Pm

Thanks for the above dialogue. I have a lame question. Apparently I need 
to implement SSL ala OpenSSL under Apache. Sorry I have not had to deal 
with implementing SSL before. Is this true? Also my error, I mentioned 
when using HTTPS may be a firewall issue but not 100% sure yet.

Any info would be helpful. I realize this may not be the correct group 
to ask the above question but at least it is a start for me.

-- 
Thanks in Advance...   http://weconsultants.prophp.org
IchBin, Philadelphia, Pa, USA  http://ichbinquotations.awardspace.com
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-William E. Taylor, Regular Guy (1952-)




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[pmwiki-users] ZAP Forum question

2007-04-30 Thread isherr

Hi Everyone.

I have a question concerning the ZAP Forum script that Caveman developed on his
ZAP site. I think it's really great and does everything I need it to do, the
problem is that I can't figure out one important detail.

I am running pmwiki 2.2.0-beta44, with the april 17 version of zap (the most
recent, i believe).

my problem is this:
i have inserted the forum snippet so that people can submit posts to my site.
truthfully, it's the same code that caveman posted, but it's suiting my needs
just fine. thanks caveman! the code is as follows:
---
(:messages:)
(:zapform key=forum:)
(:zap datapage=Demo-Forum.# forum:)
||border=0
||Date:  ||{(ftime '%x')}(:input hidden Date {(ftime '%x')}:)
||Thread: ||{(thread Demo-Forum)}
||Posted by: ||(:input text Author {$AuthId}:)
||Topic: ||(:input text Topic size=40:)
||Post: ||(:input textarea Post cols=30 rows=7:)
|| ||(:input submit value=Post to Forum:)
(:input hidden savedata Date,Author,Topic,Post:)
(:tableend:)
(:zapend:)

(:pagelist group=Demo-Forum list=normal name=-RecentChanges,-Template 
fmt=#forum:
--

the code for the #forum pagelist template is as follows. again, it was pretty
much copied.:
--
[[#forum]]
(:template first:)
(:table cellpadding=5px border-left:2px border-top:2px width=100%:)
(:cellnr bgcolor=#ccff00; color:#33;:)'''Thread'''
(:cell bgcolor=#ccff00; color:#33;:)'''Topic'''
(:cell bgcolor=#ccff00; color:#33;:)'''Post'''
(:cell bgcolor=#ccff00; color:#33;:)'''Date'''
(:cell bgcolor=#ccff00; color:#33;:)'''By'''
(:template each:)
(:cellnr bgcolor=#33; color:#ccff00;:)[[{=$Group}/{=$Name}]]
(:cell bgcolor=#33; color:#ccff00;:){=$:Topic}
(:cell bgcolor=#33; color:#ccff00;:){=$:Post}
(:cell bgcolor=#33; color:#ccff00;:){(ftime '%x' '{=$:Date}')} {=$:Done}
(:cell bgcolor=#33; color:#ccff00;:){=$:Author}
(:template last:)(:tableend:)
[[#forumend]]
--

PROBLEM:
what i am unsure about is..how do i get the data submitted in the form to appear
on each thread's page? For example, on the ZAP Forum Snippet page
[http://www.fast.st/zapbeta/index.php?n=Snippets/Forum], once a post is made and
appears in the pagelist, you can click the thread # link, and open a new page
with all the data nicely displayed.

however, when i click my thread page # links, the page is displayed, but nothing
is visible. the form data only appears when you edit the page. You can check it
out on my site (which is being reconstructed) here
[http://vinylagain.com/pmwiki/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Forum.HomePage]

i would like to know if there is some code i am missing in my form, or if there
is a template i would have to make so that the data automatically appears in the
 page's normal view mode.

i have VERY limited experience with php or zap coding. i'm sorry.
could someone point me in the right direction?

sorry this email was so long.

thanks for you time and patience (and help!)

:: ira






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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

2007-04-30 Thread Ben Stallings

For the record, since this seems to be gang-up-on-Dan day, I'd just like 
to say that I, for one, do not find the difference between Acme and ZAP 
one bit more confusing than the difference between Apple and Macintosh, 
or between my ISP and the Internet access it provides, or between PmWiki 
and the particular wiki installation on the site I'm currently working on.

We deal with brand names every day, folks.  Acme appears to be a brand 
name (like Apple), while ZAP is clearly a product (like Macintosh).  Is 
that clear enough?  I think it might actually be more confusing if the 
recipe itself were called Acme, because then the product would be called 
by what we know to be a brand name... imagine if Ford released a model 
of car called the Ford!  Calling the recipe Acme ZAP would be clearer 
than the current convention of using the two names interchangeably.

I do agree that it's a shame zapsite.org is just a forwarding domain and 
doesn't keep its domain name when you visit the site, but that may be a 
limitation of Dan's hosting provider, and none of us is really in a 
position to ask Dan to switch providers just to suit us.  If we were 
giving him money, that would be different!  Shall we take up a 
collection?  Or perhaps one of us operates a hosting provider and would 
like to donate the space to put our minds at ease, rather than just griping?

And as for the confusion among Dan and Caveman and their coyote 
associate, perhaps the Crisses can offer them some advice on how to 
present a united front to the world.  :-)

I've been told to lighten up enough times in my life to know that 
simply being told rarely does much good, so I won't follow Dan's example 
and ask you to do that.  I also fear he's doing his reputation more harm 
than good by repeatedly saying the recipe is unreliable and 
untrustworthy and something to be cautious of, when it is not -- it's 
just developed very quickly, and while it's been an exciting ride, in 
retrospect that's really nothing to apologize for.

Instead of lightening up, I think it might be enough if we could all 
just acknowledge that Dan has done an awful lot of work in a very short 
time to produce a useful product (and unlike his detractors, I can say 
that I've used it and am actively using it, and it is, in fact, very 
useful) and has the right to call it whatever the heck he wants without 
having his motives second-guessed.  Once you get it installed, it DOES 
NOT MATTER what it's called or what the programmer is calling himself 
today.  What matters is that the code works as advertised, and that the 
programmer is very responsive to questions and suggestions.

So thank you, Dan.  For most of us, confusion is a temporary state. 
--Ben S.

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

On 4/30/07, marc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The Editor said...
  On 4/30/07, Ben Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   On 4/30/07, The Editor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  I just
  kept coming up against obstacles and complexities in PmWiki in regards
  to various cutting edge ZAP functionalities. ZAP works in PmWiki, and
  PmWiki is a great tool--but both could be integrated in ways that
  would make a lot of things cleaner and simpler.

 You need to cite, Dan. I've mentioned before that you can be light on
 facts, and things ain't improving. In any case, if you believe that
 PmWiki could do things cleaner and simpler, then why not be a fine
 upstanding OSS citizen and post you patches, so that Pm (and others) can
 assess them? If you took that approach, then I doubt anyone would notice
 you calling yourself a1a1a1a1caveman.

Actually the changes I'm talking about are far deeper and more
systemic than can likely be fixed with a patch or recipe. And (IMO)
would require a major overhaul of how PmWiki works. I've discussed
this some time ago with Pm (who was very gracious in his response, as
always) and was encouraged to explore this path if I wanted, so I
decided to tinker with it a bit--now that ZAP is about finished.

I should also add from many posts on this list in the past that some
of the choices I've made for ZAPwiki will not be popular with
experienced PmWiki users--and probably with good reason. I believe
however, the strategy behind it may well produce some surprizing
results, and possibly stimulate development in PmWiki.

You can check out the specs if you are interested in the kinds of
changes I'm talking about at ZAPsite. Most of the differences either
Pm and others have argued against in the past, or are not currently
implementable in PmWiki. Some are somewhat available as recipes. Much
is just simplifications to the underlying code to take better
advantage of cutting edge concepts in PmWiki.

I'd rather discuss the features offlist.  But again, check out the
specs, and tear them to shreds if you want. I'd be very grateful.
Except for the search mechanism, the code is probably 90% done and
working exactly as intended/hoped.

Cheers,
Dan

PS.  As Dominique's incisive question cut to the quick for me
personally, I think I simply MUST drop defending my naming choices to
the community. Good grief!  Dominique, thank you for that welcome slap
back to reality!  Much appreciated...

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Re: [pmwiki-users] [pmwiki-devel] Announce: pmwiki-social

2007-04-30 Thread Tegan Dowling


On 4/30/07, J. Meijer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Pmwiki friends!

We need a pmwiki-social list. That's a start to value our members and our
community more.
snip
Hear me calling.

/jm



I hear you.  What should we do?  My preference would be for something that
has read-access restricted to members (although membership should be
available for the asking).
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Re: [pmwiki-users] ZAP Forum question

On 4/30/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hi Everyone.

 I have a question concerning the ZAP Forum script that Caveman developed on 
 his
 ZAP site. I think it's really great and does everything I need it to do, the
 problem is that I can't figure out one important detail.

 I am running pmwiki 2.2.0-beta44, with the april 17 version of zap (the most
 recent, i believe).

 my problem is this:
 i have inserted the forum snippet so that people can submit posts to my site.
 truthfully, it's the same code that caveman posted, but it's suiting my needs
 just fine. thanks caveman! the code is as follows:
 ---
 (:messages:)
 (:zapform key=forum:)
 (:zap datapage=Demo-Forum.# forum:)

All the pages are stored in this group.  You would probaly want to
change it to Forum.#

To get the posts to display, copy something like the code from
http://www.fast.st/zapbeta/index.php?n=Demo-Forum/GroupHeader to your
Forum.GroupHeader.

If you want to have comments, add something like the comments snippet
to the bottom of that code as well.

Cheers,
Dan

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Re: [pmwiki-users] RSS feeds: description tag as content, and auto-discovery

Anybody have anything on auto-discovery of RSS feeds, and why or why
not the below isn't working?

The feed reads from a reader, but neither BlogLines, nor a RSS-module
at Tribe.net can find it automatically. Granted, that's something to
do with their discovery algorithm, but what about this format might be
incompatible?


-the Other michael
http://www.xradiograph.com/interference
http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings

On 4/27/07, the Other michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 2-item grab-bag:

 1) Description as content removed from quoted message

 2) I'm not getting auto-discovery of feeds working -- at least not
 with Bloglines.

 My feed is as follows:

 http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings/action=rss?group=-pmwiki,-site,-main,-contributions,-profiles,-Category?name=-RecentChanges,-Template,-GroupHeader,-GroupFooter

 I currently subscribe to this via Bloglines -- but I entered it as the feed.

 The auto-discovery recipe at
 http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/RSSFeedLink is set up as

 $HTMLHeaderFmt['rss'] =
  link rel='alternate' title='\$WikiTitle RSS'
 href='\$ScriptUrl/action=rss?group=-pmwiki,-site,-main,-contributions,-profiles,-Category?name=-RecentChanges,-Template,-GroupHeader,-GroupFooter'
type='text/xml' /;

 And generates

 link rel='alternate' title='wrottings RSS'

 href='http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings/action=rss?group=-pmwiki,-site,-main,-contributions,-profiles,-Category?name=-RecentChanges,-Template,-GroupHeader,-GroupFooter'
type='text/xml' /


 the href-tag contains the exact same content as my working
 subscription, but bloglines, at least, claims there is no feed --
 auto-discovery is failing.


 Any advice?

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

Monday, April 30, 2007, 5:57:55 PM, Ben wrote:

 We deal with brand names every day, folks.  Acme appears to be a brand
 name (like Apple), while ZAP is clearly a product (like Macintosh).  Is
 that clear enough?  I think it might actually be more confusing if the
 recipe itself were called Acme, because then the product would be called
 by what we know to be a brand name... imagine if Ford released a model
 of car called the Ford!  Calling the recipe Acme ZAP would be clearer
 than the current convention of using the two names interchangeably.

IF Acme is a brand name, THEN I object of its cookbook page use as
brand promotion. I think cookbook pages are for describing or offering
solutions and extensions to PmWiki, which may otherwise not be covered
by PmWiki or its documentation. Extension modules as add-ons should
ideally be integrating well with PmWiki, observe some standards, don't
break too many other conventions or other modules if possible.

Clearly cookbook pages are not to promote brand names.

The concept of brand names is purely commercial, therefor I find Ben's
interpretation above a little confusing. As for Dan saying in this
thread that the Acme name can act as a red warning sign, I can only
take his remark as sarcasm and not serious.

The only parallel I can see between renaming the ZAP page to Acme is
that it aids promotion by putting it on top of the (alphabetic) pagelists
in the new cookbook by category index system.


  ~Hans


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Re: [pmwiki-users] RSS feeds: description tag as content, and auto-discovery

2007-04-30 Thread Roman

Change link type to application/rss+xml.

Roman

On 4/30/07, the Other michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Anybody have anything on auto-discovery of RSS feeds, and why or why
 not the below isn't working?

 The feed reads from a reader, but neither BlogLines, nor a RSS-module
 at Tribe.net can find it automatically. Granted, that's something to
 do with their discovery algorithm, but what about this format might be
 incompatible?


 -the Other michael
 http://www.xradiograph.com/interference
 http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings

 On 4/27/07, the Other michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  2-item grab-bag:
 
  1) Description as content removed from quoted message
 
  2) I'm not getting auto-discovery of feeds working -- at least not
  with Bloglines.
 
  My feed is as follows:
 
  http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings/action=rss?group=-pmwiki,-site,-main,-contributions,-profiles,-Category?name=-RecentChanges,-Template,-GroupHeader,-GroupFooter
 
  I currently subscribe to this via Bloglines -- but I entered it as the feed.
 
  The auto-discovery recipe at
  http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/RSSFeedLink is set up as
 
  $HTMLHeaderFmt['rss'] =
   link rel='alternate' title='\$WikiTitle RSS'
  href='\$ScriptUrl/action=rss?group=-pmwiki,-site,-main,-contributions,-profiles,-Category?name=-RecentChanges,-Template,-GroupHeader,-GroupFooter'
 type='text/xml' /;
 
  And generates
 
  link rel='alternate' title='wrottings RSS'
 
  href='http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings/action=rss?group=-pmwiki,-site,-main,-contributions,-profiles,-Category?name=-RecentChanges,-Template,-GroupHeader,-GroupFooter'
 type='text/xml' /
 
 
  the href-tag contains the exact same content as my working
  subscription, but bloglines, at least, claims there is no feed --
  auto-discovery is failing.
 
 
  Any advice?

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Re: [pmwiki-users] pmwiki upload 'world write' always set

2007-04-30 Thread Paul Carew

Thanks Patrick and everyone.
One of the probable causes of the problems that we are having, is that we 
are in the process of moving our environment from one hosting platform to a 
new hosting provider. As part of this, the installation was simply tar'ed 
up and copied as opposed to a new/fresh installation from scratch.

We will look into making sure everything is set as you recommend.

Thanks.

Best Regards

--
Paul Carew
CEO
Close Reach Communications Inc
Tel: +1-512-576-3030
Fax: +1-973-201-1670
E:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message - 
From: Patrick R. Michaud [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Paul Carew [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: [pmwiki-users] pmwiki upload 'world write' always set


 On Wed, Apr 25, 2007 at 06:24:38PM -0500, Paul Carew wrote:
 Hello Patrick,
 Thanks for the reply. The files ends up being owned by 'apache'. We have
 added apache to the 'webadmin' group (the owner of the web directory tree
 that contains the pmwiki). We had to do this so that apache could 'write'
 the file in the first place.

 If you followed the standard PmWiki installation steps,
 you shouldn't have needed to add apache to the 'webadmin'
 group.  So, something else occurred here.

 My suggestion at this point would be to do the following:

 1.  Make sure you have pmwiki.php without any modifications.

 2.  Make sure the group ownership of wiki.d/ and its parent
directory is 'webadmin' .

 3.  Change the permissions on wiki.d/ to be 2775.  This will
cause the directory to have rwxrwsr-x permissions.  Any
files created in this directory will end up being in
the 'webadmin' group, which means that the webadmin
account will still be able to manipulate the files.

 4.  Change the group ownership of any existing files in wiki.d/
to be 'webadmin', and set all of the files to have 664
(rw-rw-r--) permissions.

 That should eliminate the need for world write permissions
 on files in wiki.d/ .  If you have uploads enabled, you'll
 want to do a similar process for the uploads/ directory
 and any of its subdirectories.

 Doing the above brings you to the same configuration that
 would occur by following step 3b in PmWiki's installation
 instructions ( http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/Installation ).

 Hope this helps,

 Pm

 


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Re: [pmwiki-users] count pages (guess in zap)

2007-04-30 Thread noskule

Patrick R. Michaud schrieb:
 On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 07:43:23PM +0200, noskule wrote:
   
 hi list/dan

 I'm searching a way to count pages like count 
 {*Group}.{*$Name}-Comment-*? Is there a way to do it. I did see a 
 quiet similar way , guess in zap  ({count {*Group}}) . This counts all 
 pages in a group but so far I tested, it allows no wildcards.
 

 (:pagelist fmt=count name={*$FullName}-Comment-* :)

 Pm

   
hm, seams I do nothing, do I need the extension?
http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/PagelistCount



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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 10:54:31AM -0400, The Editor wrote:
 Also, I am not too concerned about its success. I'm not even sure if
 I'll end up using it on my site (I'm leaning toward PmWiki).  I just
 kept coming up against obstacles and complexities in PmWiki in regards
 to various cutting edge ZAP functionalities. ZAP works in PmWiki, and
 PmWiki is a great tool--but both could be integrated in ways that
 would make a lot of things cleaner and simpler.

Care to enumerate some of these integrations?  And can they
be done while preserving backwards compatibility and features
for existing sites, or do we have to throw out a lot of existing
stuff?

Personally, I have little doubt that we could make a number of
things much cleaner if we removed some of PmWiki's features, or
didn't feel a need to preserve a reasonable upgrade path for
existing sites.

Pm

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Re: [pmwiki-users] count pages (guess in zap)

On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 07:59:13PM +0200, noskule wrote:
 Patrick R. Michaud schrieb:
 On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 07:43:23PM +0200, noskule wrote:
 I'm searching a way to count pages like count 
 {*Group}.{*$Name}-Comment-*? Is there a way to do it. I did see a 
 quiet similar way , guess in zap  ({count {*Group}}) . This counts all 
 pages in a group but so far I tested, it allows no wildcards.
 
 
 (:pagelist fmt=count name={*$FullName}-Comment-* :)
 
 hm, seams I do nothing, do I need the extension?
http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/PagelistCount

Oops!  I thought I had added this to the core already, but
apparently I hadn't.  Yes, in the current version you'll
need the PagelistCount recipe.  I'll be sure to add fmt=count
to the next release.

Pm

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Re: [pmwiki-users] count pages (guess in zap)

2007-04-30 Thread noskule

noskule schrieb:
 Patrick R. Michaud schrieb:
   
 On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 07:43:23PM +0200, noskule wrote:
   
 
 hi list/dan

 I'm searching a way to count pages like count 
 {*Group}.{*$Name}-Comment-*? Is there a way to do it. I did see a 
 quiet similar way , guess in zap  ({count {*Group}}) . This counts all 
 pages in a group but so far I tested, it allows no wildcards.
 
   
 (:pagelist fmt=count name={*$FullName}-Comment-* :)

 Pm

   
 
 hm, seams I do nothing, do I need the extension?
 http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/PagelistCount


   
oky works with the extension, thanks
nos

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[pmwiki-users] RecpeList

2007-04-30 Thread pmwiki

Hi,

I was looking at the recipe list:

[[#recipelist]]
(:template defaults list=recipes class=recipelist:)
(:template first:)
||cellspacing=0 width=100%
||!Name||!Summary ||!Rating ||
(:template each:)
||[[{=$Name}]] ||{=$:Summary} (:if ! equal
{=$:Version}:)({=$:Version})(:ifend:) ||{=$Rating} ||
[[#recipelistend]]

Where is the shading white/grey coming from? How to define it?

-- 
Thanks
http://www.911networks.com
When the network has to work

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Re: [pmwiki-users] RSS feeds: description tag as content, and auto-discovery

Excellent! Works for Bloglines! Tribe.net still can't find anything,
but that's the way it goes...

-the Other michael
http://www.xradiograph.com/interference
http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings


On 4/30/07, Roman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Change link type to application/rss+xml.

 Roman

 On 4/30/07, the Other michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Anybody have anything on auto-discovery of RSS feeds, and why or why
  not the below isn't working?
 
  The feed reads from a reader, but neither BlogLines, nor a RSS-module
  at Tribe.net can find it automatically. Granted, that's something to
  do with their discovery algorithm, but what about this format might be
  incompatible?
 
 
  -the Other michael
  http://www.xradiograph.com/interference
  http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings
 
  On 4/27/07, the Other michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   2-item grab-bag:
  
   1) Description as content removed from quoted message
  
   2) I'm not getting auto-discovery of feeds working -- at least not
   with Bloglines.
  
   My feed is as follows:
  
   http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings/action=rss?group=-pmwiki,-site,-main,-contributions,-profiles,-Category?name=-RecentChanges,-Template,-GroupHeader,-GroupFooter
  
   I currently subscribe to this via Bloglines -- but I entered it as the 
   feed.
  
   The auto-discovery recipe at
   http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/RSSFeedLink is set up as
  
   $HTMLHeaderFmt['rss'] =
link rel='alternate' title='\$WikiTitle RSS'
   href='\$ScriptUrl/action=rss?group=-pmwiki,-site,-main,-contributions,-profiles,-Category?name=-RecentChanges,-Template,-GroupHeader,-GroupFooter'
  type='text/xml' /;
  
   And generates
  
   link rel='alternate' title='wrottings RSS'
  
   href='http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings/action=rss?group=-pmwiki,-site,-main,-contributions,-profiles,-Category?name=-RecentChanges,-Template,-GroupHeader,-GroupFooter'
  type='text/xml' /
  
  
   the href-tag contains the exact same content as my working
   subscription, but bloglines, at least, claims there is no feed --
   auto-discovery is failing.
  
  
   Any advice?
 
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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

On 4/30/07, Patrick R. Michaud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 10:54:31AM -0400, The Editor wrote:
  Also, I am not too concerned about its success. I'm not even sure if
  I'll end up using it on my site (I'm leaning toward PmWiki).  I just
  kept coming up against obstacles and complexities in PmWiki in regards
  to various cutting edge ZAP functionalities. ZAP works in PmWiki, and
  PmWiki is a great tool--but both could be integrated in ways that
  would make a lot of things cleaner and simpler.

 Care to enumerate some of these integrations?  And can they
 be done while preserving backwards compatibility and features
 for existing sites, or do we have to throw out a lot of existing
 stuff?

I'll send you a summary Pm of some of the main things I'm doing as
soon as I get a chance.  But you are right--the main reason it cannot
be implemented in PmWiki (easily) is the issue of backwards
compatibility.

Still there may be ways to implement some of the ideas in PmWiki.
Certainly the markup table could, just like you've done for
Creole--which I'm modeling after somewhat closely. And just because I
can't find ways to implement some of the other ideas in PmWiki doesn't
mean someone else couldn't.

 Personally, I have little doubt that we could make a number of
 things much cleaner if we removed some of PmWiki's features, or
 didn't feel a need to preserve a reasonable upgrade path for
 existing sites.

Yes that is the root of the issue.  But second, I've made a number of
major design decisions you've deliberately chosen to handle
differently--and for very good reasons (you've explained them all). So
part of the problem is I'm trying to solve a different set of
problems. Or perhaps, serve a different set of needs.  Whether or not
those decisions pan out remains to be seen.

But I'll send you another post sometime this afternoon when I get some time.

Cheers,
Dan

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Guitar Tab (was: Bridge stuff)

2007-04-30 Thread Martin Fick

--- Dominique Faure [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 4/23/07, Martin Fick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Anyone wnat to bite and make a nice guitar tab
  recipe?
...

 Somewhat already been done ;) with the help of the
 DomTT recipe and a bunch of CSS styling there (top
of
 page):
 
 http://gnuzoo.org/guitarstuff/AliceCooper/Eighteen

Actually, I found there is actually a PmWiki ChordPro
recipe which does almost the same thing that your page
has... see my ChordPro thread.  Good start, thanks!


 but as the bottom of the page may suggest, guitar
 songs aren't easy to describe using regular text.

Hmm, you should look at abctab2ps:

http://www.lautengesellschaft.de/cdmm/

I have hacked (with some issues remaining) Patrick's
abcmusic recipe to handle this format also, you can
see an example here:

http://www.theficks.name/Test/ABCTab2

But I am also taking this one step further and have
started creating an asciitab to abctab converter
(ascii2abctab) so that the same thing can be written
like this:

http://www.theficks.name/Test/ASCIITab

If you scroll down (scrolling is an artifact of my
hacked abcmusic multi page support), you will see that
it can even support chords!  This is in the very early
stages of development, but it does produce some
simplistic results. I will release this soon along
with PmWiki support when it has had a little more use
and testing.  

A more advanced example that I am hacking on:

http://www.theficks.name/Songs/U2AllIWantIsYou

This is still very messy... the goal is to be able to
simply paste in ascii tabulature found on other sites
(such as this example)

Thanks,

-Martin


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Re: [pmwiki-users] count pages (guess in zap)

2007-04-30 Thread noskule

Patrick R. Michaud schrieb:
 On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 07:59:13PM +0200, noskule wrote:
   
 Patrick R. Michaud schrieb:
 
 On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 07:43:23PM +0200, noskule wrote:
   
 I'm searching a way to count pages like count 
 {*Group}.{*$Name}-Comment-*? Is there a way to do it. I did see a 
 quiet similar way , guess in zap  ({count {*Group}}) . This counts all 
 pages in a group but so far I tested, it allows no wildcards.

 
 (:pagelist fmt=count name={*$FullName}-Comment-* :)

   
 hm, seams I do nothing, do I need the extension?
http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/PagelistCount
 

 Oops!  I thought I had added this to the core already, but
 apparently I hadn't.  Yes, in the current version you'll
 need the PagelistCount recipe.  I'll be sure to add fmt=count
 to the next release.

 Pm
   

jep cool, essential thing :-)


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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

This place is full of seriousness. Knee-deep in it.

Not that I'm encouraging people to create multiple pseudonyms, or
anything. That's reactionary, and, yeah -- confusing.

But, seriously folks, lighten up.

p.s. 'Historically, a brand was any visible mark created for
identification. Today, a brand includes any identifiable or
subconscious characteristic, including the many qualities and emotions
contained in a consumer's relationship with an entity, be it a
company, product, service or individual. Therefore, the term
branding is now synonymous with relationship-building.'
--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand

 The only parallel I can see between renaming the ZAP page to Acme is
 that it aids promotion by putting it on top of the (alphabetic) pagelists
 in the new cookbook by category index system.

People label things -- give them names -- so they can be found and
referenced. Descriptive is good -- but how do you deal with a
catch-all? 50-word Names? I don't think Steve McConnell would
approve... (Which reminds me, what descriptive functionality is the PM
in PmWiki describing, again?)

I didn't like the ZAP name. One, it was in all caps. Two, Zap meant
nothing to me but speed, and I couldn't figure out what the speed
component ways (almost every recipe is to speed something up, in a
way).

But I dislike the shift to Acme, simply because I was already used to
Zap. Move it here, move it there -- yeah, it's a wiki and we can
rename things, but it's still confusing.

Plus, it breaks the brand equity and recognition!

heh.



-the Other michael
http://www.xradiograph.com/interference
http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings


On 4/30/07, Hans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Monday, April 30, 2007, 5:57:55 PM, Ben wrote:

  We deal with brand names every day, folks.  Acme appears to be a brand
  name (like Apple), while ZAP is clearly a product (like Macintosh).  Is
  that clear enough?  I think it might actually be more confusing if the
  recipe itself were called Acme, because then the product would be called
  by what we know to be a brand name... imagine if Ford released a model
  of car called the Ford!  Calling the recipe Acme ZAP would be clearer
  than the current convention of using the two names interchangeably.

 IF Acme is a brand name, THEN I object of its cookbook page use as
 brand promotion. I think cookbook pages are for describing or offering
 solutions and extensions to PmWiki, which may otherwise not be covered
 by PmWiki or its documentation. Extension modules as add-ons should
 ideally be integrating well with PmWiki, observe some standards, don't
 break too many other conventions or other modules if possible.

 Clearly cookbook pages are not to promote brand names.

 The concept of brand names is purely commercial, therefor I find Ben's
 interpretation above a little confusing. As for Dan saying in this
 thread that the Acme name can act as a red warning sign, I can only
 take his remark as sarcasm and not serious.

 The only parallel I can see between renaming the ZAP page to Acme is
 that it aids promotion by putting it on top of the (alphabetic) pagelists
 in the new cookbook by category index system.


   ~Hans

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[pmwiki-users] ZAP mail problem

I installed a brand new wiki with latest zap as a testbed for ZAP,
because I am curious and like to learn more about ZAP. :-)

For a start I created a page with a form to send me emails, exactly
copied from zaps tutorial page: Support-Tutorials/MoreAboutForms
(second example).
I inserted a valid email address to send to, then tried to senfd ans
email.
The message I got on th epage was:
Form submitted. ZAPmail is currently in test mode. Mail sent to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  test

But I never received an email. Are there other setup steps to take?
How does the script know which mailer to use? Where is this
configured? And why do I get the message, spelling out test mode and
the email address, which is supposed to stay secret? What do I need to
set up?


  ~Hans   


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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

2007-04-30 Thread Neil Herber (nospam)

On 2007-04-30 Ben Stallings is rumoured to have said:
 We deal with brand names every day, folks. Acme appears to be a brand name 
 (like Apple), while ZAP is clearly a product (like Macintosh). Is that clear 
 enough? 

I an attempt to enlighten myself about the brand versus product, I
checked the current ZAP/Acme pages on PmWiki.org. I am now even more
confused.

All of the ZAP pages (and there is a Zap page too) seem to redirect to
Acme pages. In the main Acme page:
http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/Acme

the first lines says The Acme (ZAP) forms processor.

The Acme page has a support and download link that goes offsite to
http://www.zapsite.org which gets redirected to
http://www.fast.st/zapbeta/index.php

Low down on that page it refers to ZAP's explosive decision to rename
the PmWiki recipe page to Acme. Everything else is ZAP-related or named.

I am not suggesting that ZAP be named Acme or Acme named ZAP, nor am I
in any way questioning the utility of ZAP or the hard work that Dan has
done to create it. I *am suggesting* that in the interest of a newbie
trying to understand what ZAP does and get ZAP working with PmWiki, it 
would help a lot if there was one consistent nameset used for the recipe(s).

How about TRFKAZ? Which is the recipe formerly known as ZAP. If a 
leading A is desired, then use ARFKAZ, a recipe formerly known as 
ZAP.  ;-)

-- 
Neil Herber
Corporate info at http://www.eton.ca/


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Re: [pmwiki-users] ZAP mail problem

My two cents -- having the ZAP docs externally is a barrier-to-entry
for editing.

There have been a few things that I've wanted to clarify, but didn't
because I can't see a way to add to the docs.

I just decided to push this a bit farther, and attempted to manually
modify the address with ?action=edit and see what happens ... I got
prompted to create an account, got listed as being logged in... but
still can't edit.

Dan -- I suggest moving the docs to PmWiki.org, mirroring the docs on
PmWiki.og*, or open things up for editing. (*but then -- if we edit
docs at PmWiki, and Dan edits at ZapSite oy, vey!)

Maybe they _are_ open for editing, but if so, it's hidden.


(Yes, I know, if the Coyote's tricks weren't hidden, the Roadrunner
would never fall for them... but look what happened to the Coyote!)

-the Other michael
http://www.xradiograph.com/interference
http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings


On 4/30/07, Hans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Monday, April 30, 2007, 8:41:47 PM, Hans wrote:

  But I never received an email. Are there other setup steps to take?
  How does the script know which mailer to use? Where is this
  configured? And why do I get the message, spelling out test mode and
  the email address, which is supposed to stay secret? What do I need to
  set up?

 Okay looking into the bowels I found reference to a $ZAPmailmode
 global. This I added to config.php and set  to true.
 So now the mail arrived! Good! Is $ZAPmailmode = true; documented?
 It certainly was not on the tutorial page.

 Still the message mentions the email address it sends to.
 Does ZAP has a global to set the message for a successful sending of
 email?

 I admit I like the simplicity of the form, and that it totally hides
 the email address (apart from revealing it when one is sent!).
 This feature uses a session variable. I hope this is not causing
 problems elsewhere. I cannot comment on this nor test this.


   ~Hans

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[pmwiki-users] How to get captioned images in a table within a numbered list

2007-04-30 Thread Tony C.

Is there a way to get a caption on images within a simple table, or is
there a way to get tables created using table directives to fit within
a numbered list?

For examples of my failed attempts, see the new question I just added
to the bottom of http://pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/Images


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Whenever a theory appears to you as the only possible one,
take this as a sign that you have neither understood the theory
nor the problem which it was intended to solve. -- Karl Popper
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
HOME PAGE: www.awcfamily.com

I have no control over anything that appears after this sentence.

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Re: [pmwiki-users] How to get captioned images in a table within a numbered list

2007-04-30 Thread Roman

Does it have to be a table? What about this:

# First item
## First subitem
   %lframe% http://pmichaud.com/img/misc/pc.jpgPaper clips|'''Figure 1'''
   %lframe% http://pmichaud.com/img/misc/pc.jpgPaper clips|'''Figure 2'''
   [[]]
## Second subitem
# Second item

Roman

On 4/30/07, Tony C. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Is there a way to get a caption on images within a simple table, or is
 there a way to get tables created using table directives to fit within
 a numbered list?

 For examples of my failed attempts, see the new question I just added
 to the bottom of http://pmwiki.org/wiki/PmWiki/Images


 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
 Whenever a theory appears to you as the only possible one,
 take this as a sign that you have neither understood the theory
 nor the problem which it was intended to solve. -- Karl Popper
 ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
 HOME PAGE: www.awcfamily.com

 I have no control over anything that appears after this sentence.

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Re: [pmwiki-users] [pmwiki-devel] Announce: pmwiki-social

On 4/30/07, Patrick R. Michaud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I disagree with this on several fronts.

 First, in some ways what is happening with Dan *is* his
 fault, in that some of his posts go against open-source
 community norms and expectations (likely unintentionally).

My sincere apologies to anyone offended by any of the misconduct
mentioned by Pm. I certainly never intended to make anyone feel
threatened. I'll carefully reconsider things in light of some of the
points he made.

 In another perspective, Dan has commented several times that
 he feels a forum is superior to a mailing list for answering
 these sorts of questions.  Taking Dan at his word, perhaps
 everyone would be better served if there were a ZAP forum
 somewhere, and then Dan could simply direct any questions
 regarding ZAP, Acme, etc. could simply be directed to the forum,
 without having to repeat his answers on the list.

Actualy there is quite a bit of documentation at ZAPsite with comments
and answers to many questions. But not sure how many are taking
advantage of it, so I may have been wrong on this one too.
Nevertheless, it would not hurt to put up some extra pages there and
just point people to those pages as needed.

  So, _please_, stop treating Dan as some alien. Give him a place. His needs
  represent the needs of many *contributors*, by being of the unselfish
  category. [...]  So I confront Pm with the (passive) suppression of
  social interaction.

 I think I'm innocent on this charge, but I'll let my past actions
 (or non-actions) speak for themselves.  I'll also note that Dan's
 posts don't seem to make this claim -- he seems to feel that I've
 been sufficiently supportive of his efforts.

Just to reiterate, I agree completely, Pm has never said or done
anything from my perspective but show the utmost respect and courtesy.
And I thank him for his level-headed leadership of the community here.
 He's been a great inspiration to me.

Cheers,
Dan

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Re: [pmwiki-users] ZAP mail problem

On 4/30/07, Hans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Monday, April 30, 2007, 9:01:22 PM, Hans wrote:

  Does ZAP has a global to set the message for a successful sending of
  email?

 It appears that all the messages are hard-coded and can't be set by
 global variables. They also can't be internationalized.

 It would be good if ZAP allows setting of message content, and
 internationalizations.

See above.  Will change.

 Another thing I noticed:
 The example email form has a text box for Subject, but anything
 enters there does not arrive in the email. The subject line a user
 enters should be inserted into the mail body text.
 The subject delivered in the email is set by emailsubject= in the
 form, which is good.

If you want to insert the subject in the email you can easily use
field replacements or insert it in the template. I don't know that
should be the default approach as some might not want it in both
places.

 So there is some confusion in the example form, as it mentions
 emailsubject twice, once as in
 (:zap emailsubject=Email from zap-test wiki:)
 and another time as in
 ||Subject: ||(:input text emailsubject size=40:)
 which does not get processed.

 Can you sort this Dan please?

Can you explain which example form you are talking about? It's not in
the source at http://www.fast.st/zapbeta/index.php?n=Snippets/Email  I
may have a typo somewhere else.  Generally though, POST values cannot
overwrite SESSION input values so in the above the first emailsubject
would rule.

Cheers,
Dan

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Re: [pmwiki-users] ZAP mail problem

On 4/30/07, the Other michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 My two cents -- having the ZAP docs externally is a barrier-to-entry
 for editing.

 There have been a few things that I've wanted to clarify, but didn't
 because I can't see a way to add to the docs.

 I just decided to push this a bit farther, and attempted to manually
 modify the address with ?action=edit and see what happens ... I got
 prompted to create an account, got listed as being logged in... but
 still can't edit.

 Dan -- I suggest moving the docs to PmWiki.org, mirroring the docs on
 PmWiki.og*, or open things up for editing. (*but then -- if we edit
 docs at PmWiki, and Dan edits at ZapSite oy, vey!)

I don't want to move them to PmWiki for two reasons.

1) I often do offline editing and then upload the changes.  Or
download edits, so I need ftp access.  There's a lot of stuff up at
ZAPsite.

2) I want to enable ZAP to demo how it works, not just document it.
So I need ZAP enabled. Because of all ZAP's capabilities, I won't
really expect Pm to enable it at PmWiki.

 Maybe they _are_ open for editing, but if so, it's hidden.

I would be open to giving other admins edit permission on a request
basis, but hesitate to give public access. Or maybe I could set up a
password like PmWiki or something. Because of all ZAP can do, it's
important that only trusted users be able to use it. Or maybe only
enable the doc's section and disable ZAP on those pages, etc.  I'll
see if I can't work something out.  Thank you for being willing to
help!

 (Yes, I know, if the Coyote's tricks weren't hidden, the Roadrunner
 would never fall for them... but look what happened to the Coyote!)

It's a very cool little script that allows you to double click to edit
the page--but only if you have edit permissions.  See the snippet on

http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/EditOnDblClick

Cheers,
Dan

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Re: [pmwiki-users] ZAP mail problem

On 4/30/07, Hans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Monday, April 30, 2007, 8:41:47 PM, Hans wrote:

  But I never received an email. Are there other setup steps to take?
  How does the script know which mailer to use? Where is this
  configured? And why do I get the message, spelling out test mode and
  the email address, which is supposed to stay secret? What do I need to
  set up?

 Okay looking into the bowels I found reference to a $ZAPmailmode
 global. This I added to config.php and set  to true.
 So now the mail arrived! Good! Is $ZAPmailmode = true; documented?
 It certainly was not on the tutorial page.

From the documentation page on the email command:

ZAPmail, by default is set to operate in a test mode, to help you
learn how it works, and make sure your forms are working as intended.
To enable ZAPmail for actual sending, add this line to your config
file:

$ZAPmailmode = true;

The ZAP demo mode is 1) a way to test everything is ok with your
messages before sending them out and 2) an extra security step
requiring access to config files before actual emailing.

 Still the message mentions the email address it sends to.
 Does ZAP has a global to set the message for a successful sending of
 email?

 I admit I like the simplicity of the form, and that it totally hides
 the email address (apart from revealing it when one is sent!).
 This feature uses a session variable. I hope this is not causing
 problems elsewhere. I cannot comment on this nor test this.

I've never had problems with the session variables as they are in a
special three dimensional array indexed by both 'ZAP' and
'Pagename-Key' and 'field'.  So no conflicts likely.  They are also
deleted on each submission.

As for the messages, they can be overwritten using the msg command
http://www.fast.st/zapbeta/index.php?n=Support-Documentation/Msg

I have just recently had two different people suggest a better
approach to ZAP's messaging system that would allow for
internationalizations and/or other ways to configure the default
settings. I have not been able to rework the code yet, as the
messaging system is used throughout ZAP and ZAPtoolbox, but will soon.
 I also wanted to think a bit before launching into one solution or
another to determine the best approach. I have a rather creative
approach in mind, but it may take some time before I can get around to
implementing it.

Cheers,
Dan

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Re: [pmwiki-users] count pages (guess in zap)

On 4/30/07, noskule [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 hi list/dan

 I'm searching a way to count pages like count
 {*Group}.{*$Name}-Comment-*? Is there a way to do it. I did see a
 quiet similar way , guess in zap  ({count {*Group}}) . This counts all
 pages in a group but so far I tested, it allows no wildcards.

 thanks for any hints
 nos


This is true.  No support for wildcards (yet?). Using the pagelist
fmt=count might be best in this situation.

Cheers,
Dan

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Enableing pmWiki for SSL

On 4/30/07, Patrick R. Michaud [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 09:02:06AM +0200, Dominique Faure wrote:
  On 4/30/07, H. Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  I switched the contitional to this:
  
if (!$_SERVER[HTTPS] == 'on' || @$_SERVER['SERVER_PORT'] != '443') {
 
  You hurt my boolean algebra here: not(a or b) = not(a) AND not(b)
  so I would merely write:
 
  if (!$_SERVER[HTTPS] == 'on'  @$_SERVER['SERVER_PORT'] != '443') {

 Or even:

 if (@$_SERVER['HTTPS'] != 'on'  @$_SERVER['SERVER_PORT'] != '443') {

You are correct, I was trying to get the opposite of

  if (@$_SERVER[HTTPS] == 'on' || @$_SERVER['SERVER_PORT'] == '443') {

Either of the above would properly detect SSL for the unusual cases where
- HTTPS is not on but the port is 443 and
- HTTPS is on and the port is not 443.

Hagan

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Re: [pmwiki-users] ZAP mail problem

Monday, April 30, 2007, 10:51:35 PM, The Editor wrote:

 Can you explain which example form you are talking about? It's not in
 the source at
 http://www.fast.st/zapbeta/index.php?n=Snippets/Email  I
 may have a typo somewhere else.

I took the code from zaps tutorial page: Support-Tutorials/MoreAboutForms
(second example on the page). I have not yet looked at the email
snippets page. I expected that code from the tutorial will just work.
I think that is a reasonable assumption to make, so it may be good if
you add a sentence about setting $ZAPmailmode = true;
and change perhaps the form code quoted there so that it does not
contain  a subject text field, or explain how the subject text field
should be treated so the content will not get lost when posting. In
other words: make the examples quoted work, so anyone can get them
working easily by copy and pasting code as shown on the page. I really
expect that from a tutorial with examples.


  ~Hans


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Re: [pmwiki-users] ZAP mail problem

Monday, April 30, 2007, 11:01:10 PM, The Editor wrote:

 From the documentation page on the email command:

 ZAPmail, by default is set to operate in a test mode, to help you
 learn how it works, and make sure your forms are working as intended.
 To enable ZAPmail for actual sending, add this line to your config
 file:

 $ZAPmailmode = true;

This information is not available on the email-snippets page
Snippets/Email. I think it should be mentioned there too.
Or a link: please read zap toolbox email.

I think snippets should be sufficiently explained so one can use the
source code on one's own site and get it working. They are basically
demonstrations of applications of ZAP.


  ~Hans


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[pmwiki-users] New template expression markup....

For some time I've been going back and forth between the merits of
Fox's approach to storing comments directly onto a wiki page, and
ZAP's data driven approach which separates the data from the format.

The advantage of page insertions is they are fast to retrieve (no
pagelist) and easy to edit (all on one page). The advantage to data
driven comment is it is easy to edit the template and reformat
sitewide, on the fly.

A couple mornings ago the idea occurred to me (sparked by something
Hans did awhile back) that could allow both.

Basically, suppose you use Fox or ZAP to create a page like this:

[[#ID1]]
(:date: ...:)
(:author: ...:)
(:comment: ...:)
etc.

[[#ID3]]
(:date: ...:)
(:author: ...:)
(:comment: ...:)
etc.

[[#ID3]]
(:date: ...:)
(:author: ...:)
(:comment: ...:)
etc.

Easy enough to do with existing mechanisms.  Then you set either on
the same page or another a markup something like this:

(:template datapage templatepage:)

It opens the datapage, explodes the content by the anchors, inserts
the data values into the template, and then re-implodes the output and
sends it back to the page.  All the data is cleanly stored on one
page.  And the template can be instantly updated sitewide.  The best
of both worlds!

I wrote out the code this morning but haven't had a chance to test or
debut it yet.  Should be able to finish tomorrow.  Any thoughts?

Cheers,
Dan

PS. It also allows some interesting possibilities for editing. ZAP
would have to be able to handle editing of PTV's in anchored sections,
but that should not be too hard an addition. Just what would you call
it?

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Re: [pmwiki-users] New template expression markup....

2007-04-30 Thread Kathryn Andersen

On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 08:42:07PM -0400, The Editor wrote:
 (:template datapage templatepage:)

One problem: (:template :) is already now used in the PmWiki core
for pagelist templates.  It would be advisable to use a different
markup.
 
Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen  http://www.katspace.com
/  \| 
\_.--.*/| GenFicCrit mailing list http://www.katspace.com/gen_fic_crit/
  v | 
| Melbourne - Victoria - Australia - Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   - Earth - Sol - Milky Way Galaxy - Universe

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[pmwiki-users] pagelist count

2007-04-30 Thread Paul Lewis


Is it possible to add multiple groups to the recipe at
http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/PagelistCount
?

I have tried but no luck.

On one of my wikis I have groups for every letter of the alphabet (Citations-A, 
Citations-B, Citations-C, etc.). I need a way to get a total of the pages in 
all of these groups.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Paul Lewis
USC Aiken Library
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Re: [pmwiki-users] pagelist count

2007-04-30 Thread Kathryn Andersen

On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 09:23:39PM -0400, Paul Lewis wrote:
 
 Is it possible to add multiple groups to the recipe at
 http://www.pmwiki.org/wiki/Cookbook/PagelistCount
 ?
 
 I have tried but no luck.
 
 On one of my wikis I have groups for every letter of the alphabet 
 (Citations-A, Citations-B, Citations-C, etc.). I need a way to get a total of 
 the pages in all of these groups.
 

What did you try?  I would have thought that using a wildcard for the
group in the pagelist would work.

(:pagelist group=Citations-* fmt=count:)

Kathryn Andersen
-- 
 _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen  http://www.katspace.com
/  \| 
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  v | 
| Melbourne - Victoria - Australia - Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |   - Earth - Sol - Milky Way Galaxy - Universe

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

2007-04-30 Thread Aleks


ZAP was a very distinctive name and I liked it very much.
I enjoyed looking on the ZAP site for new ideas. ZAP should keep its name as
now it is like a brand. But if a developer wants to change it for some
reason there should be no problem until the reference of the new name is
clearly defined and differences explained.

I enjoy the whole war of words in the PmWiki world. It is amazed how
different views people have and how important some issues are. On the end we
will know the difference between ZAP and Acme. ZAP will still be in our
minds as it was developed first. 

Aleks


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of the Other michael
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 12:02 PM
To: Hans
Cc: Ben Stallings; pmwiki-users@pmichaud.com
Subject: Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

This place is full of seriousness. Knee-deep in it.

Not that I'm encouraging people to create multiple pseudonyms, or
anything. That's reactionary, and, yeah -- confusing.

But, seriously folks, lighten up.

p.s. 'Historically, a brand was any visible mark created for
identification. Today, a brand includes any identifiable or
subconscious characteristic, including the many qualities and emotions
contained in a consumer's relationship with an entity, be it a
company, product, service or individual. Therefore, the term
branding is now synonymous with relationship-building.'
--http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brand

 The only parallel I can see between renaming the ZAP page to Acme is
 that it aids promotion by putting it on top of the (alphabetic) pagelists
 in the new cookbook by category index system.

People label things -- give them names -- so they can be found and
referenced. Descriptive is good -- but how do you deal with a
catch-all? 50-word Names? I don't think Steve McConnell would
approve... (Which reminds me, what descriptive functionality is the PM
in PmWiki describing, again?)

I didn't like the ZAP name. One, it was in all caps. Two, Zap meant
nothing to me but speed, and I couldn't figure out what the speed
component ways (almost every recipe is to speed something up, in a
way).

But I dislike the shift to Acme, simply because I was already used to
Zap. Move it here, move it there -- yeah, it's a wiki and we can
rename things, but it's still confusing.

Plus, it breaks the brand equity and recognition!

heh.



-the Other michael
http://www.xradiograph.com/interference
http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings


On 4/30/07, Hans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Monday, April 30, 2007, 5:57:55 PM, Ben wrote:

  We deal with brand names every day, folks.  Acme appears to be a brand
  name (like Apple), while ZAP is clearly a product (like Macintosh).  Is
  that clear enough?  I think it might actually be more confusing if the
  recipe itself were called Acme, because then the product would be called
  by what we know to be a brand name... imagine if Ford released a model
  of car called the Ford!  Calling the recipe Acme ZAP would be clearer
  than the current convention of using the two names interchangeably.

 IF Acme is a brand name, THEN I object of its cookbook page use as
 brand promotion. I think cookbook pages are for describing or offering
 solutions and extensions to PmWiki, which may otherwise not be covered
 by PmWiki or its documentation. Extension modules as add-ons should
 ideally be integrating well with PmWiki, observe some standards, don't
 break too many other conventions or other modules if possible.

 Clearly cookbook pages are not to promote brand names.

 The concept of brand names is purely commercial, therefor I find Ben's
 interpretation above a little confusing. As for Dan saying in this
 thread that the Acme name can act as a red warning sign, I can only
 take his remark as sarcasm and not serious.

 The only parallel I can see between renaming the ZAP page to Acme is
 that it aids promotion by putting it on top of the (alphabetic) pagelists
 in the new cookbook by category index system.


   ~Hans

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Re: [pmwiki-users] RSS feeds: description tag as content, and auto-discovery

Thanks Roman!

http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings/index.xml

That's a smart suggestion, and it continues to work for Bloglines, and
Firefox's LiveBookmarks. Still not working on Tribe.net, though... I
working with them to see what the issues might be.

Before I drop the .htaccess suggestion into the wiki... what's the
[NC] referring to?

-the Other michael
http://www.xradiograph.com/interference
http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings

STATEMENT OF CONFIDENTIALITY: I send a bcc of every email only to the
NSA, because I want America to Be Secure.

On 4/30/07, Roman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I've noticed that you've changed ampersand with question marks. Proper
link should be

http://www.xradiograph.com/wrottings?action=rssgroup=-pmwiki,-site,-main,-contributions,-profiles,-Categoryname=-RecentChanges,-Template,-GroupHeader,-GroupFooter

I also suggest to make an alias for RSS link that would be more
stable. When someone subscribes to your current link and later you
change the way how you generate the feed, readers will not adapt to
this change.

You can make an alias in .htaccess

RewriteRule ^index\.xml$
?action=rssgroup=-pmwiki,-site,-main,-contributions,-profiles,-Categoryname=-RecentChanges,-Template,-GroupHeader,-GroupFooter
[NC]

and then offer link http://www.xradiograph.com/index.xml

or you can use external service like www.feedburner.com to make a link
in form of http://www.feedburner.com/xradiograph. I offers more than
this.

Roman

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Re: [pmwiki-users] [pmwiki-devel] Announce: pmwiki-social

2007-04-30 Thread J. Meijer

In many ways this has become an open letter to Pm. Read it when you have the 
time.  

 Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:41:40 -0500
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [pmwiki-devel] Announce: pmwiki-social

 [The original post was sent to pmwiki-devel, which is not the
 purpose of the pmwiki-devel list. Please send any followups
 to pmwiki-users.]

That's ok, I just thought the issue concerns anyone wishing to associate 
themselves with pmwiki more.  

 On Mon, Apr 30, 2007 at 04:47:49PM +, J. Meijer wrote:
  We need a pmwiki-social list. That's a start to value our members and our
  community more.  

 Decline. The pmwiki-users list can certainly double as pmwiki-social,
 and has done so in the past. In particular, I have trouble imagining
 posts that would be appropriate for pmwiki-social and inappropriate
 for pmwiki-users.
You want pmwiki-users to function better then? Or not lose value? Afraid people 
will start to ask questions off-list?  

Tegans response is to the point as far as I'm concerned.  

To me it is a product just as pmwiki is. Perhaps more valuable so.  

  Like what's happening now with Dan isn't his fault, it is
  a consequence of a community lacking, forcing everything through the
  semantics of pmwiki-users!

 I disagree with this on several fronts.  

 First, in some ways what is happening with Dan *is* his  
 fault, in that some of his posts go against open-source
 community norms and expectations (likely unintentionally).

 - Open source communities consider forks to be a Bad Thing [1],
 and for all intents and purposes ZAPWiki looks like a fork,
 regardless of whether Dan chooses to call it one.

 - Open source communities don't like unsubstantiated claims.  

 - Open source communities don't like misdirection (e.g., the
 ongoing confusion between ZAP, Acme, ZAPEngine, ZAPWiki, ...),
 false representations of identity, or other forms of spin.

Good list. But the list also holds when substituting Open source communities 
by open source _users_. I.e. it is the users that dictate the norm. It is the 
developers group ('professional contributors') that orients my focus. They are 
a different bunch, my peers, having (and in some ways requiring) something more 
to offer.  

On the topic of forks: I am a fork owner myself. It is frustrating in many 
ways. Yet I have no *intent* of formally forking, that would require a 
_substantial_ additional effort. But yes it may happen and I see it as a *good* 
thing. Code demonstrated is better then code talked about. It is sometimes the 
only way to substantiate claims.  

So when freely shared and finding a place for oneself within the pmwiki 
developers/community, what could be the problem? Mild forks (not the ones 
created from flame wars) are good for open source, regardless if _users_ are 
somewhat confused. Confusion can of course be avoided. Developers on this list 
seem more than willing to do so.  

On the subject of misdirection, to me it seems Dan is pointing to common 
misdirections that have a personal effect on him. But when he turns the spin 
that is on him, he is suddenly guilty of 'spin'. Sure, you haven't commented on 
this thread, and as a father have let it go. I can see your point. Yet I don't 
like seeing it and I feel this is counter-productive and in some way a desire 
to see blood in order for  to be passed on. I don't think that lesson is worth 
passing on. Doesn't this bring people down just for the sake of it?  

You know, communities aren't driven entirely by noble impulses. It is hard -if 
not impossible- to defend oneself of a sudden someone else interpreting you in 
a way you never envisioned, taking you by the balls so to say. It just isn't 
the right thing to do but it happens and it often happens with a majority vote. 
Doesn't make it right though.  

Of course, we mostly all operate on a best effort basis. But especially in this 
environment it helps _knowing_ who is who. Gush, I didn't know Hans is the 
silent pmwiki superman he turns out to be (though I did know about the value of 
his work)!  

A pmwiki-social effort would most certainly help bring the community in focus. 
That would help make pmwiki to become more visible.  

 In citing the above I'm not at all intending any sort of
 personal attack on Dan, or to imply that he has suspect motives.

True, neither am I. Nor can I affirm Dan, it's conjecture. For that matter 
people often like to read intent in my phrases. FWIW, often that intent is the 
opposite of what I knew to be my intent. 

 I'm simply saying that several of his actions, intentional or not,
 can be reasonably construed to violate open-source community
 norms, and it's both natural and appropriate that the community
 expresses its discomfort with perceived threats to the community.

This would be true if other avenues were available, i.e. a conviction only 
upholds if the defendant had a choice.  

Can we discuss the

Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

On 4/30/07, The Editor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 4/30/07, Neil Herber (nospam) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  I take it from this response that you are not willing to answer my
  questions.

 Sorry Neil.  Thought I had in other posts...

 1) ZAP is the Script.  Acme is the recipe page, and possibly the label
 for several of my recipes, such as AcmeCMS and AcmeTables already.
 Perhaps AcmeExtensions and AcmeHg soon--though I've been urged against
 fiefdom...

I would like to see MarkupExpressionsExtensions renamed to
AcmeExtensions or, better, yet, AcmeExpressions.  This way a recipe at
MarkupExpressionsExtensions could be more generic and the
AcmeExpressions recipe could be listed in its See Also section.

I'm willing to work on this if you give the go-ahead, Dan.

Hagan

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Re: [pmwiki-users] Why all this zapping?

On 4/30/07, Ben Stallings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I also fear [Dan's] doing his reputation more harm
 than good by repeatedly saying the recipe is unreliable and
 untrustworthy and something to be cautious of, when it is not

Wile E. Coyote has also been known as Hard-Headipus Ravenus and
Overconfidentii Vulgaris[1].  I haven't been following this whole
matter closely, but it seems like the shoe fits and Dan, to his
credit, is proudly wearing it.

I'm confident that Dan has made some effort to make ZAP safe, but
security concerns seem to have taken a back seat to adding Power!,
Features! and Extensibility!...  From my perspective this conclusion
has been easy to reach, but it may not be obvious to a new
WikiAdministrator that adding lots of power, features, and
extensibility also adds significant risk of vulnerability to their
Pmwiki site.

The Internet is a bizarre bazaar, and writing code safe enough to use
on a production web site is truly an art that even the most skilled
programmers find challenging.  The idea that someone without any
previous web programming experience could code something with all of
ZAPcme's capabilities and not introduce security holes is _highly_
optimistic.

Hagan

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wile_Coyote#Mock_Latin_names_in_the_cartoons

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Re: [pmwiki-users] [pmwiki-devel] Announce: pmwiki-social

Jan makes many points, I just want to quickly respond to 
an apparent misconception in that post...

On Tue, May 01, 2007 at 03:12:37AM +, J. Meijer wrote:
 
 Can we discuss the environment or the conditions we operate in? 
 That is not really the perk of pmwiki-users, with its focus on 
 code, isn't it? Neither is pmwiki-devel, though I think is 
 less problematic.  

The pmwiki-users mailing list has never been intended to be
strictly focus on code.  It's an open mailing list for any and 
all discussions related to PmWiki.  It's perfectly okay for those
discussions to range beyond the PmWiki realm from time to time.

If people on the list feel that they want to talk strictly code,
pmwiki-devel exists for that.

 Now think of me discussing some relevant aspects of what's 
 basically my life, within the pmwiki-users list. It is 
 totally inappropriate! 

Are there really a significant number of people on pmwiki-users
who are wanting a separate forum for totally non-PmWiki-related 
topics?  So far we seem to have two votes in favor of this.

Pm

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Re: [pmwiki-users] [pmwiki-devel] Announce: pmwiki-social

2007-04-30 Thread Dr Fred C

Patrick R. Michaud wrote:
 Jan makes many points, I just want to quickly respond to 
 an apparent misconception in that post...

 On Tue, May 01, 2007 at 03:12:37AM +, J. Meijer wrote:
   
 Can we discuss the environment or the conditions we operate in? 
 That is not really the perk of pmwiki-users, with its focus on 
 code, isn't it? Neither is pmwiki-devel, though I think is 
 less problematic.  
 

 The pmwiki-users mailing list has never been intended to be
 strictly focus on code.  It's an open mailing list for any and 
 all discussions related to PmWiki.  It's perfectly okay for those
 discussions to range beyond the PmWiki realm from time to time.

 If people on the list feel that they want to talk strictly code,
 pmwiki-devel exists for that.

   
 Now think of me discussing some relevant aspects of what's 
 basically my life, within the pmwiki-users list. It is 
 totally inappropriate! 
 

 Are there really a significant number of people on pmwiki-users
 who are wanting a separate forum for totally non-PmWiki-related 
 topics?  So far we seem to have two votes in favor of this.

 Pm
   
Seems there might be a place for starting up a pmwiki social group on 
FaceBook to handle this sort of 'thing'.

-- 

Always, Dr Fred C
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [pmwiki-users] pmwiki upload 'world write' always set