Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm not sure whether you are requesting these for yourself or for somebody else. If for somebody else, that somebody else should seriously consider building Python himself, and publishing the result. I'm requesting it for the many Boost.Python (heck, all Python 'C' API) users who find it a usability hurdle when their first visual studio projects fail to work properly in the default mode (debug) just because they don't have the right Python libraries. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
David Abrahams schrieb: I'm not sure whether you are requesting these for yourself or for somebody else. If for somebody else, that somebody else should seriously consider building Python himself, and publishing the result. I'm requesting it for the many Boost.Python (heck, all Python 'C' API) users who find it a usability hurdle when their first visual studio projects fail to work properly in the default mode (debug) just because they don't have the right Python libraries. And there is not one of them who would be willing and able to build a debug release, and distribute that Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David Abrahams schrieb: I'm not sure whether you are requesting these for yourself or for somebody else. If for somebody else, that somebody else should seriously consider building Python himself, and publishing the result. I'm requesting it for the many Boost.Python (heck, all Python 'C' API) users who find it a usability hurdle when their first visual studio projects fail to work properly in the default mode (debug) just because they don't have the right Python libraries. And there is not one of them who would be willing and able to build a debug release, and distribute that I don't know. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
Dave Abrahams schrieb: The only problem here is that there appears to be a lag in the release of ActivePython after Python itself is released. Is there any chance of putting up just the debugging libraries a little earlier? I may be out of context here: what is the precise problem in producing them yourself? Why do you need somebody else to do it for you? Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dave Abrahams schrieb: The only problem here is that there appears to be a lag in the release of ActivePython after Python itself is released. Is there any chance of putting up just the debugging libraries a little earlier? I may be out of context here: what is the precise problem in producing them yourself? Why do you need somebody else to do it for you? At the moment I have too weak a server to provide those files, but that will change very soon. All that said, the Python and ActiveState teams need to be aware of each and every Python release and go through a standard release procedure anyway, whereas -- except for this problem -- I would not. I'm willing to try to add it if that's what works, and of course it's easy for me to say, but I think it adds a lot more overhead for me than it would for the other two groups. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
David Abrahams schrieb: At the moment I have too weak a server to provide those files, but that will change very soon. All that said, the Python and ActiveState teams need to be aware of each and every Python release and go through a standard release procedure anyway, whereas -- except for this problem -- I would not. I'm willing to try to add it if that's what works, and of course it's easy for me to say, but I think it adds a lot more overhead for me than it would for the other two groups. It's a significant amount of work, either way. It will be larger for you when you do it the first time; after that, it will be the same amount of work for you that it would be for me. It will be easier for you than for me as you won't be acting under time pressure (whereas additional actions from me will delay the entire Python release, which, due to timezones, already significantly suffers from the need to create Windows binaries). I'm not sure whether you are requesting these for yourself or for somebody else. If for somebody else, that somebody else should seriously consider building Python himself, and publishing the result. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
Trent Mick [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [Thomas Heller wrote] Anyway, AFAIK, the activestate distribution contains Python debug dlls. [Er, a month late, but I was in flitting around Australia at the time. :)] Yes, as a separate download. ftp://ftp.activestate.com/ActivePython/etc/ ActivePython-version-win32-ix86-debug.zip And those should be binary compatible with the equivalent python.org installs as well. Note that the simple install.py script in those packages bails if the Python installation isn't ActivePython, but I could easily remove that if you think that would be useful for your users. Yes, please! Would Python.org be willing to post links to the Activestate package? That would help, too. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
[Thomas Heller wrote] Anyway, AFAIK, the activestate distribution contains Python debug dlls. [Er, a month late, but I was in flitting around Australia at the time. :)] Yes, as a separate download. ftp://ftp.activestate.com/ActivePython/etc/ ActivePython-version-win32-ix86-debug.zip And those should be binary compatible with the equivalent python.org installs as well. Note that the simple install.py script in those packages bails if the Python installation isn't ActivePython, but I could easily remove that if you think that would be useful for your users. Trent -- Trent Mick [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
David Abrahams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For years, Boost.Python has been doing some hacks to work around the fact that a Windows Python distro doesn't include the debug build of the library. [...] Having to download the Python source and build the debug DLL was deemed unacceptable. I'm curious: why was this deemed unacceptable? Python's license is about as liberal as it gets, and the code is almost startlingly easy to compile -- easier than any other similarly-sized codebase I've had to work with. Charles -- --- Charles Cazabon [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPL'ed software available at: http://pyropus.ca/software/ --- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
I vaguely recall that there were problems with distributing the debug version of the MS runtime. Anyway, why can't you do this yourself for all Boost users? It's all volunteer time, you know... --Guido On 11/4/05, Charles Cazabon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Abrahams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For years, Boost.Python has been doing some hacks to work around the fact that a Windows Python distro doesn't include the debug build of the library. [...] Having to download the Python source and build the debug DLL was deemed unacceptable. I'm curious: why was this deemed unacceptable? Python's license is about as liberal as it gets, and the code is almost startlingly easy to compile -- easier than any other similarly-sized codebase I've had to work with. Charles -- --- Charles Cazabon [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPL'ed software available at: http://pyropus.ca/software/ --- ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/guido%40python.org -- --Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
[David Abrahams] For years, Boost.Python has been doing some hacks to work around the fact that a Windows Python distro doesn't include the debug build of the library. ... MS is recommending that we (Boost) start distributing a debug build of the Python DLL with Boost, but Boost really seems like the wrong place to host such a thing. Is there any way Python.org can make a debug build more accessible? Possibly. I don't do this anymore (this == build the Python Windows installers), but I used to. For some time I also made available a zip file containing various debug-build bits, captured at the time the official installer was built. We didn't (and I'm sure we still don't) want to include them in the main installer, because they bloat its size for something most users truly do not want. I got sick of building the debug zip file, and stopped doing that too. No two users wanted the same set of stuff in it, so it grew to contain the union of everything everyone wanted, and then people complained that it was too big. This is one of the few times in your Uncle Timmy's life that he said so screw it -- do it yourself, you whiny baby whiners with your incessant baby whining you ;-) Based on that sure-to-be universal reaction from anyone who signs up for this, I'd say the best thing you could do to help it along is to define precisely (a) what an acceptable distribution format is; and, (b) what exactly it should contain. That, and being nice to Martin, would go a long way. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
Guido van Rossum [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I vaguely recall that there were problems with distributing the debug version of the MS runtime. Right: the debug runtime dlls are not disributable. Anyway, why can't you do this yourself for all Boost users? It's all volunteer time, you know... Doesn't any boost user need a C compiler anyway, so it should not really be a problem to compile Python? Anyway, AFAIK, the activestate distribution contains Python debug dlls. Thomas ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
Tim Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [David Abrahams] For years, Boost.Python has been doing some hacks to work around the fact that a Windows Python distro doesn't include the debug build of the library. ... MS is recommending that we (Boost) start distributing a debug build of the Python DLL with Boost, but Boost really seems like the wrong place to host such a thing. Is there any way Python.org can make a debug build more accessible? Possibly. I don't do this anymore (this == build the Python Windows installers), but I used to. For some time I also made available a zip file containing various debug-build bits, captured at the time the official installer was built. We didn't (and I'm sure we still don't) want to include them in the main installer, because they bloat its size for something most users truly do not want. I got sick of building the debug zip file, and stopped doing that too. No two users wanted the same set of stuff in it, so it grew to contain the union of everything everyone wanted, and then people complained that it was too big. This is one of the few times in your Uncle Timmy's life that he said so screw it -- do it yourself, you whiny baby whiners with your incessant baby whining you ;-) Based on that sure-to-be universal reaction from anyone who signs up for this, I'd say the best thing you could do to help it along is to define precisely (a) what an acceptable distribution format is; and, (b) what exactly it should contain. Who knows what the whiny babies will accept? That said, I think people would be happy with a .zip file containing whatever is built by selecting the debug build in the VS project and asking it to build everything. (**) That, and being nice to Martin, I'm always as nice as Davidly possible to Martin! would go a long way. My fingers and toes are crossed. Thanks! (**) If you could build the ability to download the debugging binaries into the regular installer, that would be the shiznit, but I don't dare ask for it. ;-) -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
Bronek Kozicki [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David Abrahams wrote: Who knows what the whiny babies will accept? That said, I think people would be happy with a .zip file containing whatever is built by selecting the debug build in the VS project and asking it to build everything. (**) Just to clarify - what we are asking for is library built with _DEBUG and no BOOST_DEBUG_PYTHON, that is the one compatible with default Python distribution. Bronek, I know you're trying to help, but I'm sure that's not making anything clearer for these people. They don't know anything about BOOST_DEBUG_PYTHON and would never have cause to define it. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
David Abrahams wrote: Who knows what the whiny babies will accept? That said, I think people would be happy with a .zip file containing whatever is built by selecting the debug build in the VS project and asking it to build everything. (**) I would go a step further than Tim: Send me (*) a patch to msi.py (which is used to build the distribution) that picks up the files and packages them in the desired way, and I will include the files it outputs in the official distribution. This is how the libpython24.a got in (and this is also the way in which it will get out again). In the patch, preferably state whom to contact for the specific feature, as I won't be able to answer questions about it. I don't have a personal need for the feature (I do have debug builds myself, and it takes only 10 minutes or so to create them), so I won't even have a way to test whether the feature works correctly. Regards, Martin (*) that is, sf.net/projects/python ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
David Abrahams wrote: Just to clarify - what we are asking for is library built with _DEBUG and no BOOST_DEBUG_PYTHON, that is the one compatible with default Python distribution. I know you're trying to help, but I'm sure that's not making anything clearer for these people. They don't know anything about BOOST_DEBUG_PYTHON and would never have cause to define it. Actually, I'm truly puzzled. Why would a library that has _DEBUG defined be compatible with the standard distribution? Doesn't _DEBUG cause linkage with msvcr71d.dll? In addition (more correctly: for that reason), the debug build causes python2x_d.dll to be build, instead of python2x.dll, which definitely is incompatible with the standard DLL. It not only uses a different C library; it also causes Py_DEBUG to be defined, which in turn creates a different memory layout for PyObject. So in the end, I would assume you are requesting what you call a debug-python, i.e. one that (in your system) *has* BOOST_DEBUG_PYTHON defined. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David Abrahams wrote: Who knows what the whiny babies will accept? That said, I think people would be happy with a .zip file containing whatever is built by selecting the debug build in the VS project and asking it to build everything. (**) I would go a step further than Tim: Send me (*) a patch to msi.py (which is used to build the distribution) that picks up the files and packages them in the desired way, and I will include the files it outputs in the official distribution. This is how the libpython24.a got in (and this is also the way in which it will get out again). Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but won't that cause the problem that Tim was worried about, i.e. a bloated Python installer? In the patch, preferably state whom to contact for the specific feature, as I won't be able to answer questions about it. I don't have a personal need for the feature (I do have debug builds myself, and it takes only 10 minutes or so to create them), I know, me too. It's easy enough once you get started building Python. I just think it's too big a hump for many people. so I won't even have a way to test whether the feature works correctly. Regards, Martin (*) that is, sf.net/projects/python I s'pose that means, put it in the patches tracker. grateful-ly y'rs, -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
Martin v. Löwis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: David Abrahams wrote: Just to clarify - what we are asking for is library built with _DEBUG and no BOOST_DEBUG_PYTHON, that is the one compatible with default Python distribution. I know you're trying to help, but I'm sure that's not making anything clearer for these people. They don't know anything about BOOST_DEBUG_PYTHON and would never have cause to define it. Actually, I'm truly puzzled. I was afraid this would happen. Really, you're better off ignoring Bronek's message. Why would a library that has _DEBUG defined be compatible with the standard distribution? Doesn't _DEBUG cause linkage with msvcr71d.dll? Unless you do the hacks that I mentioned in my opening message. Read http://www.boost.org/libs/python/doc/building.html#variants for details. In addition (more correctly: for that reason), the debug build causes python2x_d.dll to be build, instead of python2x.dll, which definitely is incompatible with the standard DLL. It not only uses a different C library; it also causes Py_DEBUG to be defined, which in turn creates a different memory layout for PyObject. Exactly. So in the end, I would assume you are requesting what you call a debug-python, i.e. one that (in your system) *has* BOOST_DEBUG_PYTHON defined. What I am requesting is the good old python2x_d.dll and any associated extension modules that get built as part of the Python distro, so I can stop doing the hack, drop BOOST_DEBUG_PYTHON, and tell people use _DEBUG in the usual way. -- Dave Abrahams Boost Consulting www.boost-consulting.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Plea to distribute debugging lib
David Abrahams wrote: I would go a step further than Tim: Send me (*) a patch to msi.py (which is used to build the distribution) that picks up the files and packages them in the desired way, and I will include the files it outputs in the official distribution. This is how the libpython24.a got in (and this is also the way in which it will get out again). Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but won't that cause the problem that Tim was worried about, i.e. a bloated Python installer? Not if done properly: it would, of course, *not* add the desired files in to the msi file, but create a separate file. It is pure Python code, and called msi.py because that's it main function. It does several other things, though (such as creating a .cab file and a .a file); it could well create another zip file. As to how it would work: preferably by invoking the Python zip library, but invoking external programs to package up everything might be acceptable as well (assuming I'm told what these tools are, and assuming it falls back to doing nothing if the tools are not available). The separate file would have a name similar to the MSI file, so that the debug file has the same version number as the MSI file. I s'pose that means, put it in the patches tracker. Exactly. Regards, Martin ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
