Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-06 Thread Derek Stewart

Tony Firshman wrote:

Dilwyn Jones wrote, On 5/01/10 19:14:

Tony Firshman wrote:

Dilwyn Jones wrote, On 5/01/10 17:00:

Clever, but better to use Thunderbird.

Although I've never installed Thunderbird, I think it's the program
my son's school suggested he install. He got so frustrated with it
(can't remember why) he uninstalled it and started using Hotmail of
all things instead.

What troubles I wonder?  Mine worked perfectly from day one and
continues to do so.

Tony
I don't really remember why, although I remember him saying it wasn't 
displaying some of his friends' emails correctly (don't ask me what 
kinds of emails they were sending him...).


He'd also installed another browser which school suggested and found 
that didn't display some of the pages of his school website and the 
homework files he did via the school website didn't display properly. 
Likewise, he uninstalled that and went back to the M$ offerings for 
his sins. Probably not the course of action many would suggest, but 
he seemed happier going back to M$ programs. I wonder if he might 
have been trying to use out of date versions of the other programs, 
or not applying the right settings, perhaps.
Thunderbird defaults to displaying text only.  There are two other 
options - simple html and original html.
It also blocks original images by default, but offers an option to 
download.


I have had quite a few users of OE who have had corrupted databases. 
This typically crashes OE.

It is a horrible program..

Tony




No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.126/2601 - Release Date: 01/05/10 07:35:00


  
I am sorry to disagree with this, but I am getting lots of blanks line 
with quotation marks and then the message.


This look very bad to me.

Derek
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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-06 Thread Derek Stewart

Derek Stewart wrote:

Tony Firshman wrote:

Dilwyn Jones wrote, On 5/01/10 19:14:

Tony Firshman wrote:

Dilwyn Jones wrote, On 5/01/10 17:00:

Clever, but better to use Thunderbird.

Although I've never installed Thunderbird, I think it's the program
my son's school suggested he install. He got so frustrated with it
(can't remember why) he uninstalled it and started using Hotmail of
all things instead.

What troubles I wonder?  Mine worked perfectly from day one and
continues to do so.

Tony
I don't really remember why, although I remember him saying it 
wasn't displaying some of his friends' emails correctly (don't ask 
me what kinds of emails they were sending him...).


He'd also installed another browser which school suggested and found 
that didn't display some of the pages of his school website and the 
homework files he did via the school website didn't display 
properly. Likewise, he uninstalled that and went back to the M$ 
offerings for his sins. Probably not the course of action many would 
suggest, but he seemed happier going back to M$ programs. I wonder 
if he might have been trying to use out of date versions of the 
other programs, or not applying the right settings, perhaps.
Thunderbird defaults to displaying text only.  There are two other 
options - simple html and original html.
It also blocks original images by default, but offers an option to 
download.


I have had quite a few users of OE who have had corrupted databases. 
This typically crashes OE.

It is a horrible program..

Tony




No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 
270.14.126/2601 - Release Date: 01/05/10 07:35:00


  
I am sorry to disagree with this, but I am getting lots of blanks line 
with quotation marks and then the message.


This look very bad to me.

Derek
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 9.0.725 / Virus Database: 270.14.126/2602 - Release Date: 01/05/10 19:35:00


  
The blank lines were the encoding in Thunderbird... I did not configure 
correctly.


But still I prefer the new message at the top.

Derek
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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-06 Thread Ralf Reköndt

Derek Stewart wrote:


The blank lines were the encoding in Thunderbird... I did not configure
correctly.

But still I prefer the new message at the top.


Me too.

Cheers...Ralf
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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-06 Thread Tony Firshman

Ralf Reköndt wrote, On 6/01/10 18:37:

Derek Stewart wrote:


The blank lines were the encoding in Thunderbird... I did not configure
correctly.
Ah yes - that is what I thought.  you were using *exactly* the same 
Thunderbord version as me, but under Windoze.


In-line quoting, as I did for the this comment, makes for very easy 
contextual reading.

This is totally impossible with bottom quoting.


But still I prefer the new message at the top.


Me too.



We will have to start another ql-users for bottom quoters (8-)#
This is beginning to sound like Lilliput.

Like Lau, I tend not to read (well more relevantly, not understand) 
bottom quoted messages, and hence do not reply to them.


Also bottom quoting is only good for *one* level of quoting. 

I see absolutely no problem with top quoting, as long as there is 
judicious editing.



Tony

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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Ian Pine
In my opinion, generally, I think that as a thread builds up, old stuff 
should be 'pushed down' with the latest comment going in at the top (like 
this message); this means that I don't have to scroll through a lengthening 
chunk of everything I've previously read to get to the latest reply - BUT if 
the last message contains a number of points being responded to 
individually, the responses should be embedded, with each response coming 
after the original question; in this case I find that the  at the start 
of original lines is enough to separate them from new comments. I also 
prefer to do all emailing in plain text - I don't trust opening HTML 
content!


Sorry Tony, I guess it's just what I've always been used to, rather than 
right or wrong.

Ian.

P.S. Another fascinating issue of QL Today - I devoured it all on the day it 
arrived (yesterday).


- Original Message - 
From: Tony Firshman t...@firshman.co.uk

To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:08 PM
Subject: [Ql-Users] Message formatting


I think mailing lists like this need in-line quoting.  The vast majority do 
use this, and good mailers like Thunderbird do this by default.


However some users append the Original message under the reply.  M$ 
Outlook (and Express) mailers unfortunately do this by default.


This makes it look pretty bad, especially in a reply.  Also the Original 
message includes an in-line quoted message with all the correct indents, 
but now without the extra indent, making it unusable in further in-line 
replies.


What do others think?
Tony

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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Ian Pine

See below.
- Original Message - 
From: Ian Pine ilp...@tesco.net

To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting


In my opinion, generally, I think that as a thread builds up, old stuff 
should be 'pushed down' with the latest comment going in at the top (like 
this message);


Looks as though I'm in the minority here then ... [joins cat in naughty 
corner for 3 minutes ;o)]


this means that I don't have to scroll through a lengthening chunk of 
everything I've previously read to get to the latest reply - BUT if the 
last message contains a number of points being responded to individually, 
the responses should be embedded, with each response coming after the 
original question; in this case I find that the  at the start of 
original lines is enough to separate them from new comments. I also prefer 
to do all emailing in plain text - I don't trust opening HTML content!


Sorry Tony, I guess it's just what I've always been used to, rather than 
right or wrong.

Ian.

P.S. Another fascinating issue of QL Today - I devoured it all on the day 
it arrived (yesterday).


- Original Message - 
From: Tony Firshman t...@firshman.co.uk

To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 2:08 PM
Subject: [Ql-Users] Message formatting


I think mailing lists like this need in-line quoting.  The vast majority 
do use this, and good mailers like Thunderbird do this by default.


However some users append the Original message under the reply.  M$ 
Outlook (and Express) mailers unfortunately do this by default.


This makes it look pretty bad, especially in a reply.  Also the Original 
message includes an in-line quoted message with all the correct indents, 
but now without the extra indent, making it unusable in further in-line 
replies.


What do others think?
Tony

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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Tony Firshman

Ian Pine wrote, On 5/01/10 11:58:
In my opinion, generally, I think that as a thread builds up, old 
stuff should be 'pushed down' with the latest comment going in at the 
top (like this message); this means that I don't have to scroll 
through a lengthening chunk of everything I've previously read to get 
to the latest reply - BUT if the last message contains a number of 
points being responded to individually, the responses should be 
embedded, with each response coming after the original question; in 
this case I find that the  at the start of original lines is enough 
to separate them from new comments. I also prefer to do all emailing 
in plain text - I don't trust opening HTML content!


Sorry Tony, I guess it's just what I've always been used to, rather 
than right or wrong.


Yes but that is hopeless when there are threads.  They simply cannot be 
used except manually!


There should *never* be an ever increasing length of quoting.  All one 
needs to do is snip older or no longer relevant  comments (as I have 
done now and always *try* to do).  These don't necessarily need to be at 
the beginning of course.


Whatever is done we must *all* follow the same method otherwise it gets 
ridiculous (as now).


Usnet use inline so why not here?

Tony

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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Tony Firshman

Ian Pine wrote, On 5/01/10 12:05:

See below.
- Original Message - From: Ian Pine ilp...@tesco.net
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting


In my opinion, generally, I think that as a thread builds up, old 
stuff should be 'pushed down' with the latest comment going in at the 
top (like this message);


Looks as though I'm in the minority here then ... [joins cat in 
naughty corner for 3 minutes ;o)]




... and there is another plus for inline (top quoting).  Bottom quoting 
is only sensible if you have read and remember the previous comment(s).  
For someone coming new to a thread, bottom quoting is hopeless.


Tony

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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Marcel Kilgus
Tony Firshman wrote:
 Usnet use inline so why not here?

My 2 cents: I'm fully with Tony on this one but also think that it's a
battle against windmills and thus cannot be won.

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Laurence Reeves

Marcel Kilgus wrote:

Tony Firshman wrote:
  

Usnet use inline so why not here?



My 2 cents: I'm fully with Tony on this one but also think that it's a
battle against windmills and thus cannot be won.

Marcel

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No. People eventually learn that top-posting is wrong (and contrary to 
everything, as it destroys all chance of following what has happened in 
a thread). They learn, when they notice that no one replies to their 
contributions.


The practice is required netiquette, on NNTP newsgroups, as the early 
parts of a thread are no longer available. Joining a thread is made 
simple, when one can just read the thread, in correct, logical sequence, 
from top to bottom of the latest post.


It is no different on a mailing list, where it makes it impossible for a 
newcomer to understand what a thread is about, it it has been mangled by 
out-of-sequence postings.


I just ignore top-posted contributions, and never reply to them.

Google: top-posting netiquette

(PS. Hi all.)

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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread gdgqler

On 4 Jan 2010, at 14:08, Tony Firshman wrote:

 I think mailing lists like this need in-line quoting.  The vast majority do 
 use this, and good mailers like Thunderbird do this by default.
 

I would probably agree if I knew what in-line quoting means.

 However some users append the Original message under the reply.  M$ Outlook 
 (and Express) mailers unfortunately do this by default.
 

I put my reply at the end unless, as now, I am replying to specific points 
inside the original  message.

 This makes it look pretty bad, especially in a reply.  Also the Original 
 message includes an in-line quoted message with all the correct indents, but 
 now without the extra indent, making it unusable in further in-line replies.
 
 What do others think? 
 Tony

This reply is what I do. But is this what Tony suggests?

George

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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Ralf Reköndt

From: gdgqler
I put my reply at the end unless, as now, I am replying to specific points 
inside the original  message.


I have all set in OE, as Tony F. suggested, but sometimes the quote chars 
appears, sometimes not. As I have said, OE puts the chars in front of the 
original messages, then(!) format the text as set in OE but keeps the 
original LFs.


8-(

Cheers...Ralf 


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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Tony Firshman

gdgqler wrote, On 5/01/10 16:07:

On 4 Jan 2010, at 14:08, Tony Firshman wrote:

  

I think mailing lists like this need in-line quoting.  The vast majority do use 
this, and good mailers like Thunderbird do this by default.




I would probably agree if I knew what in-line quoting means.

  

However some users append the Original message under the reply.  M$ Outlook 
(and Express) mailers unfortunately do this by default.




I put my reply at the end unless, as now, I am replying to specific points 
inside the original  message.

  

This makes it look pretty bad, especially in a reply.  Also the Original 
message includes an in-line quoted message with all the correct indents, but now 
without the extra indent, making it unusable in further in-line replies.

What do others think? 
Tony



This reply is what I do. But is this what Tony suggests?

  


Yep - this is inline (and top quoting) - exactly what I think works.

Tony

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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Tony Firshman

Ralf Reköndt wrote, On 5/01/10 16:14:

From: gdgqler
I put my reply at the end unless, as now, I am replying to specific 
points inside the original  message.


I have all set in OE, as Tony F. suggested, but sometimes the quote 
chars appears, sometimes not. As I have said, OE puts the chars in 
front of the original messages, then(!) format the text as set in OE 
but keeps the original LFs.




Simple solution - bin OE.  There are many free mailers but you can't go 
wrong with Thunderbird.


Tony

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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Andreas Berger

Am 05.01.2010 17:14 schrieb Ralf Reköndt:

From: gdgqler

I put my reply at the end unless, as now, I am replying to specific
points inside the original message.


I have all set in OE, as Tony F. suggested, but sometimes the quote
chars appears, sometimes not. As I have said, OE puts the chars in front
of the original messages, then(!) format the text as set in OE but keeps
the original LFs.


(I have no time to read the complete tread, but...)
You are using http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/?
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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Dilwyn Jones
I put my reply at the end unless, as now, I am replying to specific 
points

inside the original  message.


I have all set in OE, as Tony F. suggested, but sometimes the quote 
chars
appears, sometimes not. As I have said, OE puts the chars in front 
of the
original messages, then(!) format the text as set in OE but keeps 
the

original LFs.

8-(

Cheers...Ralf
I agree, Ralf, I too have problems getting Outlook Express to quote as 
I would like it. My email program is set to do what Tony suggested, 
but it doesn't always work as you might expect.


Sometimes someone sends a Rich Text email and this program is set to 
reply using plain text and all that happens is ... nothing. You get 
the original text (now plain text) but the leading quote characters 
fail to appear.


While there will always be exceptions to rules, Tony is absolutely 
right to pursue this - for most messages on this list the format he 
suggests is best, coupled with sensible snipping to keep message 
lengths down. It is hugely annoying, though, when OE fails to get it 
right and I end up hand-editing to get a sensible quoting.


Dilwyn Jones 




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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Ralf Reköndt

Andreas Berger wrote:

Am 05.01.2010 17:14 schrieb Ralf Reköndt:

From: gdgqler

I put my reply at the end unless, as now, I am replying to specific
points inside the original message.


I have all set in OE, as Tony F. suggested, but sometimes the quote
chars appears, sometimes not. As I have said, OE puts the chars in
front of the original messages, then(!) format the text as set in OE
but keeps the original LFs.


(I have no time to read the complete tread, but...)
You are using http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/?


Not up until now. Thanks, this is a very good enhancement!

Cheers...Ralf 


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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Ralf Reköndt

Dilwyn Jones wrote:

I put my reply at the end unless, as now, I am replying to specific
points
inside the original  message.


I have all set in OE, as Tony F. suggested, but sometimes the quote
chars
appears, sometimes not. As I have said, OE puts the chars in front
of the
original messages, then(!) format the text as set in OE but keeps
the
original LFs.

8-(

Cheers...Ralf

I agree, Ralf, I too have problems getting Outlook Express to quote as
I would like it. My email program is set to do what Tony suggested,
but it doesn't always work as you might expect.

Sometimes someone sends a Rich Text email and this program is set to
reply using plain text and all that happens is ... nothing. You get
the original text (now plain text) but the leading quote characters
fail to appear.

While there will always be exceptions to rules, Tony is absolutely
right to pursue this - for most messages on this list the format he
suggests is best, coupled with sensible snipping to keep message
lengths down. It is hugely annoying, though, when OE fails to get it
right and I end up hand-editing to get a sensible quoting.

Dilwyn Jones


Just try, what Andreas suggested. Works perfectly including the colours. 
This quote was done using standard of the program.


Cheers...Ralf 


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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Dilwyn Jones

Clever, but better to use Thunderbird.
Although I've never installed Thunderbird, I think it's the program my 
son's school suggested he install. He got so frustrated with it (can't 
remember why) he uninstalled it and started using Hotmail of all 
things instead.



That sort of kludge reminds me of a What the customer wanted and
What
the customer got joke that circulated in Ford in the late 60s. 
What
Was Ford itself a joke in the 60s? (Oops, is that their lawyer at my 
door?)



they wanted was a swing on a branch in a tree.  What they got was a
swing with one rope on a branch one side of the tree and one rope on 
a
branch on the other side.  The tree was supported with scaffolding 
and

the trunk was cut in the middle where the swing went through!

Sounds about right :-)


Best to get what the customer wants correct at the start of the
process
(8-)#

Tony

Absolutely.

Though the QL story was not exactly a model of that suggestion, 
perhaps?


Or was the customer not part of it all? (Read Tony Tebby's QL Today 
articles for the answer to that one!)


Dilwyn Jones 




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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Tony Firshman

Dilwyn Jones wrote, On 5/01/10 17:00:

Clever, but better to use Thunderbird.
Although I've never installed Thunderbird, I think it's the program my 
son's school suggested he install. He got so frustrated with it (can't 
remember why) he uninstalled it and started using Hotmail of all 
things instead.
What troubles I wonder?  Mine worked perfectly from day one and 
continues to do so.


Tony

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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Dilwyn Jones

Tony Firshman wrote:

Dilwyn Jones wrote, On 5/01/10 17:00:

Clever, but better to use Thunderbird.
Although I've never installed Thunderbird, I think it's the 
program

my son's school suggested he install. He got so frustrated with it
(can't remember why) he uninstalled it and started using Hotmail 
of

all things instead.

What troubles I wonder?  Mine worked perfectly from day one and
continues to do so.

Tony
I don't really remember why, although I remember him saying it wasn't 
displaying some of his friends' emails correctly (don't ask me what 
kinds of emails they were sending him...).


He'd also installed another browser which school suggested and found 
that didn't display some of the pages of his school website and the 
homework files he did via the school website didn't display properly. 
Likewise, he uninstalled that and went back to the M$ offerings for 
his sins. Probably not the course of action many would suggest, but he 
seemed happier going back to M$ programs. I wonder if he might have 
been trying to use out of date versions of the other programs, or not 
applying the right settings, perhaps.


Just noticed, this OE QuoteFix things is adding an extra  quote mark 
(or it might be OE adding one on top of what QuoteFix is doing) - 
something to keep me amused while surrounded by snow I suppose :-(


I like the way it manages to extract the info for adding Tony 
Firshman wrote at the top of the reply, for example. Lots of little 
touches like that make it a promising add-on for OE. Now I'll just 
have to take the time to read up on all the facilities!


Dilwyn Jones 




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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-05 Thread Tony Firshman

Dilwyn Jones wrote, On 5/01/10 19:14:

Tony Firshman wrote:

Dilwyn Jones wrote, On 5/01/10 17:00:

Clever, but better to use Thunderbird.

Although I've never installed Thunderbird, I think it's the program
my son's school suggested he install. He got so frustrated with it
(can't remember why) he uninstalled it and started using Hotmail of
all things instead.

What troubles I wonder?  Mine worked perfectly from day one and
continues to do so.

Tony
I don't really remember why, although I remember him saying it wasn't 
displaying some of his friends' emails correctly (don't ask me what 
kinds of emails they were sending him...).


He'd also installed another browser which school suggested and found 
that didn't display some of the pages of his school website and the 
homework files he did via the school website didn't display properly. 
Likewise, he uninstalled that and went back to the M$ offerings for 
his sins. Probably not the course of action many would suggest, but he 
seemed happier going back to M$ programs. I wonder if he might have 
been trying to use out of date versions of the other programs, or not 
applying the right settings, perhaps.
Thunderbird defaults to displaying text only.  There are two other 
options - simple html and original html.

It also blocks original images by default, but offers an option to download.

I have had quite a few users of OE who have had corrupted databases. 
This typically crashes OE.

It is a horrible program..

Tony

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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-04 Thread Ralf Reköndt
Yes, it seems so, but as a user of OE, there are no alternatives. It was 
quite easy in the times of  Maustausch, there were quite a few good 
programs on the Atari, which I have used, also QLFED from Andreas Rudolf on 
QDOS/SMSQ. They first formatted the quoted text, left space for the 
quotation chars, then set the quotation chars. OE simply do it vice versa. 
No chance.


Cheers...Ralf

- Original Message - 
From: Tony Firshman


I think mailing lists like this need in-line quoting.  The vast majority do 
use this, and good mailers like Thunderbird do this by default.


However some users append the Original message under the reply.  M$ 
Outlook (and Express) mailers unfortunately do this by default.


This makes it look pretty bad, especially in a reply.  Also the Original 
message includes an in-line quoted message with all the correct indents, 
but now without the extra indent, making it unusable in further in-line 
replies.


What do others think?
Tony 


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Re: [Ql-Users] Message formatting

2010-01-04 Thread GO BOY GO-LT

Tony wrote -

This is John in Wales - John Sadler?
Who, what, why is GO-BOY GO-LT?
Sounds like an instruction to a Welsh sheepdog (8-)#
==

Why not ask *him* he should know!

. tee dum, dum I said O/E (as my current client) it should have 
been, on this machine, Windows Live Mail. Sorry folks.


Cheers,

One of the Johns,  somewhere.

 
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