Re: [RDA-L] Profession or occupation
How about (Military officer : II) ? Grin ^^ Adam L. Schiff Principal Cataloger University of Washington Libraries Box 352900 Seattle, WA 98195-2900 (206) 543-8409 (206) 685-8782 fax asch...@u.washington.edu http://faculty.washington.edu/~aschiff ~~ On Thu, 26 Jan 2012, John Hostage wrote: We have come across a potential problem in the application of RDA 9.19.1.6. There is an AACR2 heading already established for ‘Sharma, S. K., Colonel’. It has an RDA form in field 700 for ‘Sharma, S. K. (Military officer)’. We have another author named Major S.K. Sharma. We are confident that it’s a different person and will establish an AACR2 heading as ‘Sharma, S. K., Major’ but it looks like there will be an unavoidable conflict when/if it is converted to RDA. -- John Hostage Authorities and Database Integrity Librarian Langdell Hall Harvard Law School Library Cambridge, MA 02138 host...@law.harvard.edu +(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice) +(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax) http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/
Re: [RDA-L] Announcement: Publication of RDA terms for Content, Carrier, Media type vocabularies
RDA intentionally separates the storage and display of data (see RDA 0.1 Key
Features). The controlled vocabulary used to record this data for RDA is the
result of meetings with the publishing community that resulted in the RDA/ONIX
Framework. The goal was to use terminology common to the library and
publishing communities, so such data could easily be exchanged and re-used
among these communities. The maintenance of those agreed vocabularies is
ongoing. Proposals for new terms should be directed to your JSC representative
(see the JSC Web site for the list of representatives at
http://www.rda-jsc.org/members.html, and for countries without a
representative, proposals may be sent to the JSC Chair - me - at b...@loc.gov).
RDA 0.12 Encoding RDA Data reminds users that the internal controlled
vocabularies may be encoded using a substitute vocabulary encoding scheme,
provided the encoding scheme is identified, but that is for encoding. Any
vocabulary may be used (or even icons or other creative ways of communicating
the information) for display of the terms. RDA offers some commonly used
methods for display, for example, Appendix D for the presentation of RDA based
data according to ISBD, as well as mapping to variable fields and subfields in
MARC 21; and Appendix E for AACR2 punctuation and order for access points for
libraries wishing to follow those conventions.
- Barbara Tillett, Chair, JSC
-Original Message-
From: J. McRee Elrod [mailto:m...@slc.bc.ca]
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 5:38 PM
To: Tillett, Barbara
Cc: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Announcement: Publication of RDA terms for Content,
Carrier, Media type vocabularies
The Joint Steering Committee for Development of RDA etc. have announced the
publication of a second set of vocabulary terms as linked open data.
Included are the media terms:
http://metadataregistry.org/concept/list/vocabulary_id/37.html
The term computer continues to be used as a media type rather than ISBD Area
0's electronic.
-No other media is identified as a piece of equipment, e.g., the term
projected is used, not projector, microcopic not microscope.
-Patrons do not think of their Kobos, Kindles, iPhones, etc. as computers.
-What would one call an actual computer being catalogued?
-Check the definition of computer in RDA; Alice in Wonderland territory, in
which a word means what JSC says it means.
While some of the content term long phrases would mean nothing to most patrons,
the misuse of computer is by far the worst usage offender.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates
RDA 9.3.2 Date of birth and
RDA 9.3.3 Date of death
are specific elements to identify a person. They are Core, meaning they
should be included in a description of a person. Only the date (may include
year, month, and day) needs to be given, as the name of the element identifies
it as birth or death - no matter the language.
When using the dates in constructing access points, RDA 9.19.1.3 instructs
adding the date of birth and/or date of death, if necessary, to distinguish one
access point from another. There is an optional addition to always add dates
associated with a person, even if there is no need to distinguish. The
examples are there to suggest how that could be structured for a catalog to be
used by English speakers. For a non-English catalog, the English term born
or died (if needed) would be replaced by appropriate terms in the language of
the cataloging agency. As stated in RDA 0.10 Examples, All examples
illustrate elements as they would be recorded by an agency whose preferred
language is English.
Barbara Tillett - Chair, JSC
-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Joseph, Angelina
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 10:15 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates
We are talking about English, French and German. What about other languages of
the world? Is not universality the whole scope of RDA? Pardon me if I am wrong?
--angelina joseph
Marquette University
Milwaukee, WI
-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of J. McRee Elrod
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 6:51 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates
Friend Hal from down under has pointed out yet another problem with RDA words
rather than hyphens, when only one of birth or death date is known. The words
in French would differ with gender:
... the need to distinguish gender in French: né masc., née fem. for 'born',
mort/morte for 'died'.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates
RDA still very much respects ISBD. Fruitful harmonization meetings with the
JSC and the ISBD Review Group representatives were part of the JSC meeting in
Glasgow. You may wish to follow the outcomes from the Glasgow meeting found on
the JSC Web site at http://www.rda-jsc.org/out.html .
When the translations of RDA are added to the RDA Toolkit, you will see the
international capabilities even more than are there now. RDA 0.11
Internationalization has further information, noting in particular RDA is
designed for use in an international context. There are instuctions
throughout to show how to use RDA in non-English environments, and the
translations will give further guidance.
Barbara Tillett, JSC Chair
-Original Message-
From: J. McRee Elrod [mailto:m...@slc.bc.ca]
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:41 PM
To: Tillett, Barbara
Cc: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates
Barbara said:
For a non-English catalog, the English term born or died (if
needed) would be replaced by appropriate terms in the language of the
cataloging agency.
Wouldn't this impede bibliographic record sharing, and UBC? Why are we
abandoning ISBD, the most successful international library standard ever
devised?
As a cataloguing agency, we are multilingual.
What terms would we use for a item in a third language going to a bilingual
catalogue, e.g., a Spanish item going to a French/English or French/German
catalogue? (We have clients of each of these types.)
Would we have to have multiple copies of records for each language of the
catalogue?
Wouldn't a hyphen after birth dates, and before death dates, be a simpler
solution? Not to mention fl. and ca.
RDA is much more Anglo centric and AACR2, even though Anglo is no longer in
the title. RDA seems unaware of Quebec or bilingual European countries, where
there may be no one language of the catalogue.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates
I don't really want to fan the flames any more than is necessary, but I think a
few responses are in order.
Bibliographic record sharing: Multiple language versions of bibliographic
records of the same resource already exist in our bibliographic utilities. How
in the world does RDA impede bibliographic record sharing when this situation
already exists? Do the bibliographic records that SLC produces contain only
internationally acceptable abbreviations or words? What do you do when the
need arises to make a note? Doesn't that have to be in the language of the
catalog for which the resource is intended?
UBC: If UBC is accomplished by using natural language strings, then yes, your
point is well taken that a string that uses English, German, French, etc. terms
to describe the type of date, cannot be readily shared. But using natural
language to achieve UBC is stupid anyways. Names change and dates change. If
you want to achieve UBC then unique identifiers, such as URIs, must be used to
uniquely identify persons, works, and the data elements that describe each of
these. How these elements display (whether as hyphens or with specific
language terms) should be left to the programming of user displays.
Arguing over whether or not ca. or circa should be used, or 1978- vs. born 1978
is pointless when it comes to creating the metadata of the future. The only
sense that this argument is meaningful is if we continue to use natural
language strings to control bibliographic entities such as persons. If we
continue to control headings in this manner, then this will be a problem in a
multi-lingual catalog. But if identification and control is done using URIs,
then this problem becomes mute. Using URIs will allow the Francophone users of
a French/English catalog to have the record display in French while the
Anglophone users will have the same record displayed using an English display.
I get the sense that you believe the cataloger will have to supply every
language permutation for a date display, but this is simply not the case. This
is something that can be done through computer programming on the
user-interface side.
Damian Iseminger
New England Conservatory
-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of J. McRee Elrod
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 12:41 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates
Barbara said:
For a non-English catalog, the English term born or died (if
needed) would be replaced by appropriate terms in the language of the
cataloging agency.
Wouldn't this impede bibliographic record sharing, and UBC? Why are
we abandoning ISBD, the most successful international library standard
ever devised?
As a cataloguing agency, we are multilingual.
What terms would we use for a item in a third language going to a
bilingual catalogue, e.g., a Spanish item going to a French/English or
French/German catalogue? (We have clients of each of these types.)
Would we have to have multiple copies of records for each language of
the catalogue?
Wouldn't a hyphen after birth dates, and before death dates, be a
simpler solution? Not to mention fl. and ca.
RDA is much more Anglo centric and AACR2, even though Anglo is no
longer in the title. RDA seems unaware of Quebec or bilingual
European countries, where there may be no one language of the
catalogue.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates
Damian Iseminger asked:
Do the bibliographic records that SLC produces contain only
internationally acceptable abbreviations or words? What do you do
when the need arises to make a note?
When producing records for a bilingual catalogue, we use ISBD Latin
abbreviations, use notes in the language of the text, and add the
appropriate langauge subject headings, controlled by the client ILS
using 2nd indicator.
It took a while to convince one library that if their patrons could
read the French text, they could read the French notes.
We do not have to edit inclusions in headings or description, thanks
to ISBD. The days of having to come up with by in a variety of
languages is thankfully long past, replaced by ISBS's /.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates
Barbara said:
RDA still very much respects ISBD.
So why abandon ISBD brief Latin abbreviations inclusions, which are
ideal for display in any language?
Why computer rather than electronic as a media type?
Seems pretty disrespectful to me.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] MARC records in a bilingual catalogue
Damian Iseminger asked:
Do the bibliographic records that SLC produces contain only
internationally acceptable abbreviations or words?
I should have added that for French items going to a French or
French/English bilingual catalogue, we will change map to carte.
The ISBD abbreviations p., v., ill., col. present no
problem, and need not be changed. RDA will create *much* more work.
I suspect we are already charging the highest prices our clients can
afford in this economic climate. (One client has already cut back on
505 contents of more than 10 chapters, for which there is an
additional charge.) Our present plan is to continue with ISBD and
AACR2 abbreviations as part of the export program.
The abbreviations remain the same in UKMARC records for British
libraries still using UKMARC.
For a German catalogue the abbreviations would need to be changed, and
we have no German only catalogue client at present; our European
clients are at least bilingual if not trilingual.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you should know the JSC greatly
respects and is working with the ISBD Review Group to keep things harmonized,
so records created using either ISBD or RDA for description are compatible.
The ISBD Review Group is examining where they are no longer synchronized with
other IFLA foundations, such as FRBR.
ISBD came out of the card catalog environment and was a tremendous tool when we
were exchanging bibliographic records. We are no longer exchanging catalog
cards. Exchange is being replaced by re-use of data in environments that
can access a shared database (think of the way many of us use OCLC or
SkyRiver). We are moving on to accessing records in shared datastores or
through web services in the cloud, hopefully saving a lot of time and effort of
catalogers by sharing the workload to create descriptions that can be augmented
over time and maybe eventually eliminate the need for our multiple, redundant,
local databases.
Even better will be when we can move beyond MARC and use linked data with URLs
to identify entities and then display whatever language/script the user wants.
We have seen the proof of that concept with VIAF-the Virtual International
Authority File.
UBC is being updated to document IFLA decisions from the mid-1990's with Ton
Heiliger's Working Group that concluded it was important to respect cultural
diversity and put users first. The 1970's ideas of UBC requiring everyone in
the world to use the same form of heading (authority control) and the same
bibliographic description that was created by each national bibliographic
agency for the publishing output of their country is anachronistic in today's
publishing environment where many publishers are more international. VIAF
emerged from those IFLA discussions with the Heiliger's group and is a great
example of how this respect for cultural diversity and respect for the user's
needs is working. A user in China may not be able to read the Latin script
form of a name established by the national library in France, but if we have
linked that to the data established by the National Library of China (or
another contributor who supplied the Chinese script), we can display that to
the user. The revised UBC principles are being worked on in the IFLA
Bibliography Section now and will hopefully get worldwide approval by the IFLA
Conference in Helsinki in August.
The explanation about Latin abbreviations has been given many times on this
list. Latin abbreviations violate the IFLA International Cataloguing
Principles.
Computer vs. electronic has been explained many times on this list. RDA is
following the agreed RDA/ONIX vocabulary and work continues with the publishing
community on those controlled vocabularies.
Barbara Tillett, JSC Chair
-Original Message-
From: J. McRee Elrod [mailto:m...@slc.bc.ca]
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 3:17 PM
To: Tillett, Barbara
Cc: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates
Barbara said:
RDA still very much respects ISBD.
So why abandon ISBD brief Latin abbreviations inclusions, which are ideal for
display in any language?
Why computer rather than electronic as a media type?
Seems pretty disrespectful to me.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] Showing birth and death dates
IFLA principle 2.2. states: Common usage. Vocabulary used in descriptions and access should be in accord with that of the majority of users. My question remains: how do we know what vocabulary the majority of users expect to find in a catalog? Have any empirical studies been done on the question? Is there even such a thing as the majority of users given the diversity of users and user-tasks that are carried out in library catalogs? (These are not merely rhetorical questions... if someone has worked on this, I'd love to see what they discovered.) Some AACR2-isms, like [s.l.], seem pretty clearly to be outside of the norm for an English-speaking person who is not a cataloger or a pedant (but perhaps I repeat myself, here ;)). But others, like circa or flourished seem less clear-cut. (They both show up in Webster's, for example.) And when we start replacing circa with approximately and flourished 1532-1593 with approximately 1532-approximately 1593, aren't we encroaching on IFLA's principle 2.7, Economy? I understand that, at some point in the post-MARCian future, most of these terms will be replaced with URIs, so a library (or even an individual library user) will able to tune its display according to local preference. But, we aren't there yet, and seems uncertain to me when we'll arrive. And when we do there will be a lot of unconverted data to deal with so it seems like it's still worth discussing the literals, as it were. Benjamin Abrahamse Cataloging Coordinator Acquisitions, Metadata and Enterprise Systems MIT Libraries 617-253-7137
Re: [RDA-L] Abandoning ISBD language neutrality
Barbara said:
The 1970's ideas of UBC requiring everyone in the world to use the
same form of heading (authority control) and the same bibliographic
description that was created by each national bibliographic agency
for the publishing output of their country is anachronistic in
today's publishing environment where many publishers are more
international.
And a good idea it was!
A record currently acquired by us from an European national library
with ISBD inclusions requires *far* less editing by us than an RDA one
with long phrases in the language of their catalogue.
In what language would the inclusions be for an item not in one of the
two or three languages of a bi or tri lingual catalogue? I don't
think the ramifications of this have been fully considered. Does any
gain justify the loss of reuse and the massive effort required?
As Mike remarked, we are preparing records for use *now*, not is some
future being forecast.
Perhaps RDA should wait for a coding system which can deal with these
language variations. Why create MARC RDA records for an interim
period? Why not have the change clear, without a muddy overlap?
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
