[Fwd: [recoznet2] RE: ABC Newslink - Labor Member questions God's inclusion inpreambl]
At 04:26 PM 23/2/99, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is a constituion itself a 'modernist' thing, in a post-modern society? I've always been intrigued by the idea of a "post-modern" society. Is it something which is modern but chained to a telegraph pole? Is it something which is so far in front of itself that it doesn't know where it is at all? Is it something that essentially depends on the soulless pastel colours of 1990's banks, cafes and offices? Is it simply a nice piece of mystification which allows the real estate agents, stock brokers and their confreres (who ignore the question completely) to profit from the confusion of the academics and literary buffs at the expense of all the rest of humanity? How about lots of different localities having their own song/charters, each a verse in a larger song? Well yes, this is nice and good, but, I fear, a certain recipe for obliteration at the hands of McDonalds, Exxon, Microsoft, the World Bank and the Gnomes who used to be in Zurich but are now to be found everywhere. Am i getting silly (or is this how it was pre 1788?) No, Yes, but the problems in Australia in 1999 ( or AI 111 - after invasion 111) are not the same as in BI 1 (before-invasion 1) Cheers Rod ps how about the Archie Roach / Paul Kelly song "From little things , big things grow as a preamble? Rod Hagen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hurstbridge, Victoria, Australia WWWhttp://www.netspace.net.au/~rodhagen --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use."
[Fwd: [recoznet2] RE: ABC Newslink - Labor Member questions God's inclusion inpreambl]
Good evening all, I am finding these contradictory arguments a bit hard to follow. If I may play devil's advocate (another entity supported by even fewer people, but I digress) for a moment, without being labelled myself one way or another and getting people off-side. Sorry I jumped the gun and misread "do not recognise any religion at all" as being atheists, but isn't that the issue - those who do not believe in God, ie atheists, will be offended. If the number of atheists is indeed quite low, as Trudy and Rod assert, (and regretting that atheists, and agnostics, will be offended, but then name anything that does get 100% agreement) than surely it is fair enough to include a reference to a belief held by the overwhelming majority of Australians, and a form of words can be found that incorporates the diversity of that belief. Rod, you quoted a lot of statistics which boil down to the conclusion that between 16.6% and 31% (allowing for growth) follow no religion. As Trudy points out this is not the same as not believing in God, the preamble statement would not claim that Australians follow a religion, but recognise that Australians believe in God, which the census apparently says is true. To go the other way and claim that we are a secular state, ie "concerned with the affairs of this world, not spiritual or sacred" (Oxford Dict.), is even more extreme than including a God reference and will offend a greater number. It certainly does not recognise what we claim for the spirituality of Indigenous culture. Nevertheless, all that said, I think the indigenous references will be lost if too many contentious issues are included in the same question. Disempowerment increases as the number of questions put at referenda decrease, instead we should be asked to assent to each part separately. Anything else is tactical manoeuvring. Please read this in the spirit it was intended, no offence meant. Regards, Peter. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Rod Hagen Sent: Monday, 22 February 1999 18:06 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [recoznet2] RE: ABC Newslink - Labor Member questions God's inclusion inpreambl At 08:33 AM 22/2/99, Trudy and Rod Bray wrote: I don't think he said that 30% were atheists, Peter, in fact, the percentage of those is actually very small. The last census doesn't indicate that 30% are atheists. It does, however indicate that 16.6% of people indicated that they followed no religion in 1996 and that a further 9% didn't answer the question. Moreover the number of people indicating no religion had grown by some 35% since the previous census compared with, for a example, a 2.9% fall in the number of people identifying as Anglican. If the same growth/fall rates have been sustained since 1996 there are now far more atheists / agnostics in Australia than there are Anglicans. snip (source ABS Web data on religious affiliation.) My own view is that the preamble should state that we are a secular state, which recognises the freedom of people to either believe, or not believe, as their personal conscience dictates. Cheers Rod snip --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use."
[Fwd: [recoznet2] RE: ABC Newslink - Labor Member questions God's inclusion inpreambl]
Rod, re your brawl with vic ed... are there schools in Victoria which teach Aboriginal dreaming or other religions apart from the Christian one(s)? My objection to my children receiving religious education has been not that Christianity's belief systems shouldn't be shared, but that other religions deserve equal airplay. I am particularly interested in whether and how Aboriginal dreaming is taught in primary schools, re our work on North Stradbroke/Minjerribah and policy suggestions for the school. Thanks, Dee Dee Elliott Elliott Whiteing Associates PO Box 818 Cooroy 4563 Q. Australia (61) 7 54477440 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- From: Rod Hagen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [recoznet2] RE: ABC Newslink - Labor Member questions God's inclusion inpreambl Date: Monday, 22 February 1999 17:05 At 08:33 AM 22/2/99, Trudy and Rod Bray wrote: I don't think he said that 30% were atheists, Peter, in fact, the percentage of those is actually very small. The last census doesn't indicate that 30% are atheists. It does, however indicate that 16.6% of people indicated that they followed no religion in 1996 and that a further 9% didn't answer the question. Moreover the number of people indicating no religion had grown by some 35% since the previous census compared with, for a example, a 2.9% fall in the number of people identifying as Anglican. If the same growth/fall rates have been sustained since 1996 there are now far more atheists / agnostics in Australia than there are Anglicans. The number of people indicating that they pursue no religion vastly exceeds the number of people who identify as Muslim , Hindu etc (three times the number in fact). There are more people indicating "no religion" than all of the other christian groups combined apart from Anglican and Catholic. After Anglicans and Catholics, people without a religion made up the third largest group in the Australian community in 1996. I suspect that by now only the Catholics outnumber them (us). (source ABS Web data on religious affiliation.) My own view is that the preamble should state that we are a secular state, which recognises the freedom of people to either believe, or not believe, as their personal conscience dictates. Cheers Rod (who is in the middle of a bit of a brawl about whether religious education should be given the prominence which it is at the local Victorian state school!) Rod Hagen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hurstbridge, Victoria, Australia WWWhttp://www.netspace.net.au/~rodhagen --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use." --- RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2 To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body of the message, include the words:unsubscribe announce or click here mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission from the copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under the "fair use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further without permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use."
