[Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A)
My original plan was to let the transmitter PTT control the Micor encoder board as usual, but supply a valid user signal present logic input to abruptly stop the tone when there is no user signal present... thus allowing the controller to keep the transmitter keyed for IDs without PL tone. This would also kill the reverse burst capability. But wait! (this is a little complicated to explain) What if I divorced J401-2 from keyed filtered A+ on the exciter and instead used my valid user signal present logic to supply keyed filtered A+ to that pin? The controller PTT would control transmitter PTT as normal. Valid user signal logic would control the tone encoder. Suppose I then put a diode between the collector of Q707 and J401-4 (delayed keyed filtered A+) and used logic from the collector of Q707 (inverted) to pull Pin 701 low when Q707 shuts off. I think this would: 1) allow the controller to keep the transmitter keyed for *both* valid user signals and IDs by way of normal transmitter PTT 2) allow valid user signal logic to control the tone encoder in such a way that there would be no tone output unless there was a valid user signal... and allow the decoder to do reverse burst after loss of valid user signal, then abruptly kill the tone instead of reverting to normal tone. If anyone followed my poor description... are there flaws in my thinking? Perhaps I am over-engineering here? Paul
RE: [Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A)
I don't have a schematic in front of me, but if your plan is to key voltage to the board on/off, this won't work ideally because the vibrasender reed takes a little time to come up to speed. Since the repeater transmitter is still keyed long after a user unkeys, just muting the encoder seems like it would work fine all by itself. Whether the radio does or does not understand reverse-burst shouldn't matter. RB would mute the receiver quicker on radios that do understand RB, but unless your courtesy tone, ID's, etc. start to be played out very quickly (like within a few hundred ms) of a user unkeying, even radios looking for RB should mute before those ID's and CT's air. Also consider what happens if a user is noisy/ratty/fluttery into the repeater. As the COR briefly goes inactive during a fade, you're going be switching PL phases. This will tend to make the user sound even more choppy on listener's radios that are using PL decode. You'd be better off not having the phase change, and just having the PL drop out briefly without RB, and then recovering in-phase when COR goes active again - less chance of having the user radio mute intermittantly. --- Jeff WN3A -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of N1BUG Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:18 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A) My original plan was to let the transmitter PTT control the Micor encoder board as usual, but supply a valid user signal present logic input to abruptly stop the tone when there is no user signal present... thus allowing the controller to keep the transmitter keyed for IDs without PL tone. This would also kill the reverse burst capability. But wait! (this is a little complicated to explain) What if I divorced J401-2 from keyed filtered A+ on the exciter and instead used my valid user signal present logic to supply keyed filtered A+ to that pin? The controller PTT would control transmitter PTT as normal. Valid user signal logic would control the tone encoder. Suppose I then put a diode between the collector of Q707 and J401-4 (delayed keyed filtered A+) and used logic from the collector of Q707 (inverted) to pull Pin 701 low when Q707 shuts off. I think this would: 1) allow the controller to keep the transmitter keyed for *both* valid user signals and IDs by way of normal transmitter PTT 2) allow valid user signal logic to control the tone encoder in such a way that there would be no tone output unless there was a valid user signal... and allow the decoder to do reverse burst after loss of valid user signal, then abruptly kill the tone instead of reverting to normal tone. If anyone followed my poor description... are there flaws in my thinking? Perhaps I am over-engineering here? Paul No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2842 - Release Date: 05/03/10 02:27:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A)
Jeff, Good explanation, especially the fluttery/noisy user signal. Would this general theory apply for factory Micor DPL boards as well? I might run my repeater using DPL since that is what I have available and its working fine. Tony On 05/03/2010 02:36 PM, Jeff DePolo wrote: I don't have a schematic in front of me, but if your plan is to key voltage to the board on/off, this won't work ideally because the vibrasender reed takes a little time to come up to speed. Since the repeater transmitter is still keyed long after a user unkeys, just muting the encoder seems like it would work fine all by itself. Whether the radio does or does not understand reverse-burst shouldn't matter. RB would mute the receiver quicker on radios that do understand RB, but unless your courtesy tone, ID's, etc. start to be played out very quickly (like within a few hundred ms) of a user unkeying, even radios looking for RB should mute before those ID's and CT's air. Also consider what happens if a user is noisy/ratty/fluttery into the repeater. As the COR briefly goes inactive during a fade, you're going be switching PL phases. This will tend to make the user sound even more choppy on listener's radios that are using PL decode. You'd be better off not having the phase change, and just having the PL drop out briefly without RB, and then recovering in-phase when COR goes active again - less chance of having the user radio mute intermittantly. --- Jeff WN3A -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of N1BUG Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:18 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A) My original plan was to let the transmitter PTT control the Micor encoder board as usual, but supply a valid user signal present logic input to abruptly stop the tone when there is no user signal present... thus allowing the controller to keep the transmitter keyed for IDs without PL tone. This would also kill the reverse burst capability. But wait! (this is a little complicated to explain) What if I divorced J401-2 from keyed filtered A+ on the exciter and instead used my valid user signal present logic to supply keyed filtered A+ to that pin? The controller PTT would control transmitter PTT as normal. Valid user signal logic would control the tone encoder. Suppose I then put a diode between the collector of Q707 and J401-4 (delayed keyed filtered A+) and used logic from the collector of Q707 (inverted) to pull Pin 701 low when Q707 shuts off. I think this would: 1) allow the controller to keep the transmitter keyed for *both* valid user signals and IDs by way of normal transmitter PTT 2) allow valid user signal logic to control the tone encoder in such a way that there would be no tone output unless there was a valid user signal... and allow the decoder to do reverse burst after loss of valid user signal, then abruptly kill the tone instead of reverting to normal tone. If anyone followed my poor description... are there flaws in my thinking? Perhaps I am over-engineering here? Paul No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2842 - Release Date: 05/03/10 02:27:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A)
Thanks Jeff! Having someone to kick this around with is helping. Very good point about the ratty user signal. I hadn't thought of that. You are exactly right. I need to make sure the controller is set up to always keep the transmitter up for a short time after loss of user signal on the repeater, and just kill the tone. Paul Jeff DePolo wrote: I don't have a schematic in front of me, but if your plan is to key voltage to the board on/off, this won't work ideally because the vibrasender reed takes a little time to come up to speed. Since the repeater transmitter is still keyed long after a user unkeys, just muting the encoder seems like it would work fine all by itself. Whether the radio does or does not understand reverse-burst shouldn't matter. RB would mute the receiver quicker on radios that do understand RB, but unless your courtesy tone, ID's, etc. start to be played out very quickly (like within a few hundred ms) of a user unkeying, even radios looking for RB should mute before those ID's and CT's air. Also consider what happens if a user is noisy/ratty/fluttery into the repeater. As the COR briefly goes inactive during a fade, you're going be switching PL phases. This will tend to make the user sound even more choppy on listener's radios that are using PL decode. You'd be better off not having the phase change, and just having the PL drop out briefly without RB, and then recovering in-phase when COR goes active again - less chance of having the user radio mute intermittantly. --- Jeff WN3A Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A)
There was an earlier post concerning grounding a pin on the backplane which instantly disables the PL tone on the transmitter. I've got a VHF unified chassis MICOR which is controlled by an SCOM 7K controller. I used one of the digital outputs of the controller and tied it directly to the PL disable connection on the backplane. Then, I programmed a macro which was tied to a command function to have the line go low 1 or 2 seconds just before the transmitter shuts down. I works flawlessly. I don't have the manual or the code in front of me, but if anyone is interested in this I can provide details. Obviously you would need either a controller or some type of interface to accomplish this. 73, Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: N1BUG p...@n1bug.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A) Thanks Jeff! Having someone to kick this around with is helping. Very good point about the ratty user signal. I hadn't thought of that. You are exactly right. I need to make sure the controller is set up to always keep the transmitter up for a short time after loss of user signal on the repeater, and just kill the tone. Paul Jeff DePolo wrote: I don't have a schematic in front of me, but if your plan is to key voltage to the board on/off, this won't work ideally because the vibrasender reed takes a little time to come up to speed. Since the repeater transmitter is still keyed long after a user unkeys, just muting the encoder seems like it would work fine all by itself. Whether the radio does or does not understand reverse-burst shouldn't matter. RB would mute the receiver quicker on radios that do understand RB, but unless your courtesy tone, ID's, etc. start to be played out very quickly (like within a few hundred ms) of a user unkeying, even radios looking for RB should mute before those ID's and CT's air. Also consider what happens if a user is noisy/ratty/fluttery into the repeater. As the COR briefly goes inactive during a fade, you're going be switching PL phases. This will tend to make the user sound even more choppy on listener's radios that are using PL decode. You'd be better off not having the phase change, and just having the PL drop out briefly without RB, and then recovering in-phase when COR goes active again - less chance of having the user radio mute intermittantly. --- Jeff WN3A Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A)
At 01:56 PM 5/3/2010, Don Kupferschmidt wrote: There was an earlier post concerning grounding a pin on the backplane which instantly disables the PL tone on the transmitter. I've got a VHF unified chassis MICOR which is controlled by an SCOM 7K controller. I used one of the digital outputs of the controller and tied it directly to the PL disable connection on the backplane. I was gonna say.a LOT of overkill suggestions are being made when the quick and very simple solution is to use the tools Motorola gave with Micors. I've used this method myself and it works flawlessly. Of course I use one of our controllers however :-) Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A)
shameless plug, right Ken? Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: Ken Arck To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A) At 01:56 PM 5/3/2010, Don Kupferschmidt wrote: There was an earlier post concerning grounding a pin on the backplane which instantly disables the PL tone on the transmitter. I've got a VHF unified chassis MICOR which is controlled by an SCOM 7K controller. I used one of the digital outputs of the controller and tied it directly to the PL disable connection on the backplane. I was gonna say.a LOT of overkill suggestions are being made when the quick and very simple solution is to use the tools Motorola gave with Micors. I've used this method myself and it works flawlessly. Of course I use one of our controllers however :-) Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A)
At 02:16 PM 5/3/2010, Don Kupferschmidt wrote: shameless plug, right Ken? ---Who, me? g -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A)
There was an earlier post concerning grounding a pin on the backplane which instantly disables the PL tone on the transmitter. I've got a VHF unified chassis MICOR which is controlled by an SCOM 7K controller. I used one of the digital outputs of the controller and tied it directly to the PL disable connection on the backplane. Then, I programmed a macro which was tied to a command function to have the line go low 1 or 2 seconds just before the transmitter shuts down. I works flawlessly. I don't have the manual or the code in front of me, but if anyone is interested in this I can provide details. Obviously you would need either a controller or some type of interface to accomplish this. 73, Don, KD9PT - Original Message - From: N1BUG p...@n1bug.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A) Thanks Jeff! Having someone to kick this around with is helping. Very good point about the ratty user signal. I hadn't thought of that. You are exactly right. I need to make sure the controller is set up to always keep the transmitter up for a short time after loss of user signal on the repeater, and just kill the tone. Paul Jeff DePolo wrote: I don't have a schematic in front of me, but if your plan is to key voltage to the board on/off, this won't work ideally because the vibrasender reed takes a little time to come up to speed. Since the repeater transmitter is still keyed long after a user unkeys, just muting the encoder seems like it would work fine all by itself. Whether the radio does or does not understand reverse-burst shouldn't matter. RB would mute the receiver quicker on radios that do understand RB, but unless your courtesy tone, ID's, etc. start to be played out very quickly (like within a few hundred ms) of a user unkeying, even radios looking for RB should mute before those ID's and CT's air. Also consider what happens if a user is noisy/ratty/fluttery into the repeater. As the COR briefly goes inactive during a fade, you're going be switching PL phases. This will tend to make the user sound even more choppy on listener's radios that are using PL decode. You'd be better off not having the phase change, and just having the PL drop out briefly without RB, and then recovering in-phase when COR goes active again - less chance of having the user radio mute intermittantly. --- Jeff WN3A Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A)
Thanks Don. Yep, I was over-thinking the problem! Links are new to me. Somehow I was forgetting I have control over keeping the link transmitter up after I drop the PL tone, so I can eliminate squelch crashes at the receive end of the link that way. All I need to do is ground that trusty pin (P701) on the Micor encoder, and possibly tweak some timer settings in the repeater/link controller. I was also forgetting I can force messages (ID) to start some specified time after I drop the PL tone and before the transmitter drops. I may be able to control P701 directly from an output on the RLC-4 controller. Needs some research. I'm not sure I understand exactly how some of the event triggers (029-044) work (or rather exactly what triggers them) but I will ask and/or figure it out. Paul N1BUG Don Kupferschmidt wrote: There was an earlier post concerning grounding a pin on the backplane which instantly disables the PL tone on the transmitter. I've got a VHF unified chassis MICOR which is controlled by an SCOM 7K controller. I used one of the digital outputs of the controller and tied it directly to the PL disable connection on the backplane. Then, I programmed a macro which was tied to a command function to have the line go low 1 or 2 seconds just before the transmitter shuts down. I works flawlessly. I don't have the manual or the code in front of me, but if anyone is interested in this I can provide details. Obviously you would need either a controller or some type of interface to accomplish this. 73, Don, KD9PT Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Repeater-Builder] IDEA? Re: Micor PL encoder modification (TLN5731A)
Paul, Here is my two cents worth. I am not sure what you are using for your other equipment in your system, but we use Micor repeaters and have a combination of Motorola Maxtrac, GE MVS, and Johnson Challenger link radios. We always enable PL encode and decode with reverse burst on the repeaters and both ends of the links. No squelch crash anywhere in the system. I have to listen very closely to tell if the user is coming in on the link receiver or the local repeater that I am listening to. If you have commercial PL encoders/decoders that are capable you might want to enable reverse burst throughout your system, and give that a try first. Our repeaters are in PL access with the AND Squelch mod. We run the link radios in PL mode and strap the mic hangup button to ground. We feed the controllers COR signal only. We do not let the controllers control any part of the PL. If you have any open COR only repeaters in your system, you will still hear a squelch burst when someone is using that repeater. Good Luck, Joe - WA7JAW --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, N1BUG p...@... wrote: Thanks Don. Yep, I was over-thinking the problem! Links are new to me. Somehow I was forgetting I have control over keeping the link transmitter up after I drop the PL tone, so I can eliminate squelch crashes at the receive end of the link that way. All I need to do is ground that trusty pin (P701) on the Micor encoder, and possibly tweak some timer settings in the repeater/link controller. I was also forgetting I can force messages (ID) to start some specified time after I drop the PL tone and before the transmitter drops. I may be able to control P701 directly from an output on the RLC-4 controller. Needs some research. I'm not sure I understand exactly how some of the event triggers (029-044) work (or rather exactly what triggers them) but I will ask and/or figure it out. Paul N1BUG Don Kupferschmidt wrote: There was an earlier post concerning grounding a pin on the backplane which instantly disables the PL tone on the transmitter. I've got a VHF unified chassis MICOR which is controlled by an SCOM 7K controller. I used one of the digital outputs of the controller and tied it directly to the PL disable connection on the backplane. Then, I programmed a macro which was tied to a command function to have the line go low 1 or 2 seconds just before the transmitter shuts down. I works flawlessly. I don't have the manual or the code in front of me, but if anyone is interested in this I can provide details. Obviously you would need either a controller or some type of interface to accomplish this. 73, Don, KD9PT
