subject:"\[Sprinklerforum\] Re\: Residential Design in NFPA 13"

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

2023-07-20 Thread Brett Peters

Taylor
That is exactly how I see it as well

I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on
Tuesday August 22nd

Thanks

Brett Peters
General Manager Installation & Design
Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
br...@proudline.ca
780 490 7602 office ext 202
780 490 7605 fax
780 777 0568 cell
780 718 2676 24h
Visit us at www.proudline.ca

Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact
a...@proudline.ca for more information






On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 10:53 AM Taylor Schumacher 
wrote:

> I’ve had AHJ’s call me out for not picking the more obvious fire scenario,
> but I stick to the most demanding and then your bases are covered.
>
>
>
> It’s not a start at the most demanding sprinkler and then pick up the ones
> closest to it. It’s the group of 4 sprinklers that produce the greatest
> hydraulic demand.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Taylor Schumacher*
>
>
>
> *From:* Brett Peters 
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2023 11:41 AM
> *To:* Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers <
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13
>
>
>
> *Caution:* This email originated from outside your organization. Please
> take care when clicking links or opening attachments.
>
>
>
> This is my thought, so if the area ends up being the master bedroom and
> there is one line that feeds the bedroom, closet and ensuite and another
> line that feeds living area sprinklers, if the master bedroom is the
> hydraulically most demanding space then the adjacent sprinklers would be
> the closet and ensuite, this is both the most likely "next sprinklers to
> activate as well as flowing the 3 heads on one line would be more
> demanding from a pressure loss standpoint, this other "company" is
> calculating the heads in the living space and usually ending up with the 4
> heads being from 3 separate lines.
>
> I'm saying his system is underdesigned and doesn't represent the
> "hydraulically most demanding sprinklers" and he is saying that my way is
> over designed.
>
>
>
> Are we spending too much money on our design (material costs) or is he
> opening himself up to a liability issue?
>
>
>
> Trying to determine which is actually the "right" way to design the system
> as there are cost implications.
>
>
>
> I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on
> Tuesday August 22nd
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Brett Peters
>
> General Manager Installation & Design
>
> Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
>
> br...@proudline.ca
>
> 780 490 7602 office ext 202
>
> 780 490 7605 fax
>
> 780 777 0568 cell
>
> 780 718 2676 24h
>
> Visit us at www.proudline.ca
>
>
>
> Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact
> a...@proudline.ca for more information
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.] [image: Image removed by sender.] [image:
> Image removed by sender.] [image: Image removed by sender.] [image: Image
> removed by sender.] [image: Image removed by sender.] [image: Image
> removed by sender.] [image: Image removed by sender.]
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 10:22 AM Greg McGahan <
> g...@genesisfireservices.com> wrote:
>
> The intent is to calculate the 4 most demanding sprinklers that would
> activate in a single fire event, therefore we tend to submit the version
> that reflects that scenario but we typically prove the calcs for our sake.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 11:07 AM Brett Peters  wrote:
>
> LOL, unfortunately I have someone arguing that it can be done the other
> way because "those heads have a larger area of coverage".
>
> In my opinion they are twisting the definitions of "adjacent" and
> "hydraulically most demanding" to include the sprinklers that cover the
> largest area but in my opinion the largest floor space doesn't
> necessarily present as the most demanding.
>
>
>
> I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on
> Tuesday August 22nd
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Brett Peters
>
> General Manager Installation & Design
>
> Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
>
> br...@proudline.ca
>
> 780 490 7602 office ext 202
>
> 780 490 7605 fax
>
> 780 777 0568 cell
>
> 780 718 2676 24h
>
> Visit us at www.proudline.ca
>
>
>
> Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact
> a...@proudline.ca for more information
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: Image removed by sender.] [

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

2023-07-20 Thread Taylor Schumacher

I’ve had AHJ’s call me out for not picking the more obvious fire scenario, but 
I stick to the most demanding and then your bases are covered.

It’s not a start at the most demanding sprinkler and then pick up the ones 
closest to it. It’s the group of 4 sprinklers that produce the greatest 
hydraulic demand.


Taylor Schumacher

From: Brett Peters 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2023 11:41 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13


Caution: This email originated from outside your organization. Please take care 
when clicking links or opening attachments.


This is my thought, so if the area ends up being the master bedroom and there 
is one line that feeds the bedroom, closet and ensuite and another line that 
feeds living area sprinklers, if the master bedroom is the hydraulically most 
demanding space then the adjacent sprinklers would be the closet and ensuite, 
this is both the most likely "next sprinklers to activate as well as flowing 
the 3 heads on one line would be more demanding from a pressure loss 
standpoint, this other "company" is calculating the heads in the living space 
and usually ending up with the 4 heads being from 3 separate lines.
I'm saying his system is underdesigned and doesn't represent the "hydraulically 
most demanding sprinklers" and he is saying that my way is over designed.

Are we spending too much money on our design (material costs) or is he opening 
himself up to a liability issue?

Trying to determine which is actually the "right" way to design the system as 
there are cost implications.

I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on Tuesday 
August 22nd

Thanks

Brett Peters
General Manager Installation & Design
Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
br...@proudline.ca<mailto:br...@proudline.ca>
780 490 7602 office ext 202
780 490 7605 fax
780 777 0568 cell
780 718 2676 24h
Visit us at www.proudline.ca<http://www.proudline.ca/>

Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact 
a...@proudline.ca<mailto:a...@proudline.ca> for more information



[Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.]  [Image removed by 
sender.]  [Image removed by sender.]  [Image removed by sender.]  [Image 
removed by sender.]  [Image removed by sender.]  [Image removed by sender.]


On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 10:22 AM Greg McGahan 
mailto:g...@genesisfireservices.com>> wrote:
The intent is to calculate the 4 most demanding sprinklers that would activate 
in a single fire event, therefore we tend to submit the version that reflects 
that scenario but we typically prove the calcs for our sake.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 11:07 AM Brett Peters 
mailto:br...@proudline.ca>> wrote:
LOL, unfortunately I have someone arguing that it can be done the other way 
because "those heads have a larger area of coverage".
In my opinion they are twisting the definitions of "adjacent" and 
"hydraulically most demanding" to include the sprinklers that cover the largest 
area but in my opinion the largest floor space doesn't necessarily present as 
the most demanding.

I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on Tuesday 
August 22nd

Thanks

Brett Peters
General Manager Installation & Design
Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
br...@proudline.ca<mailto:br...@proudline.ca>
780 490 7602 office ext 202
780 490 7605 fax
780 777 0568 cell
780 718 2676 24h
Visit us at www.proudline.ca<http://www.proudline.ca/>

Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact 
a...@proudline.ca<mailto:a...@proudline.ca> for more information



[Image removed by sender.] [Image removed by sender.]  [Image removed by 
sender.]  [Image removed by sender.]  [Image removed by sender.]  [Image 
removed by sender.]  [Image removed by sender.]  [Image removed by sender.]


On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 9:31 AM Chris Dorn 
mailto:chris.d...@dornfireprotection.com>> 
wrote:
Brett,
I think you answered your own question. “I always choose whatever gives me the 
greatest pressure loss not necessarily the larger flow.” Wouldn’t that by 
definition be the hydraulically most demanding area regardless of location? 
It’s exactly what I do also in this situation.
Chris Dorn



From: Brett Peters mailto:br...@proudline.ca>>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2023 11:15 AM
To: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Residential Design in NFPA 13

Having a debate on which sprinklers actually have to be part of the hydraulic 
calculation in a residential unit in a 13 building (So the calculation has to 
include 4 sprinklers) - NFPA 13, 2013

11.3.1.1* The design area shall be the area that includes the four adjacent 
sprinklers that produce
the greatest hydraulic demand.

With 11.3.1.1 in mind if you have a spa

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

2023-07-20 Thread Brett Peters

This is my thought, so if the area ends up being the master bedroom and
there is one line that feeds the bedroom, closet and ensuite and another
line that feeds living area sprinklers, if the master bedroom is the
hydraulically most demanding space then the adjacent sprinklers would be
the closet and ensuite, this is both the most likely "next sprinklers to
activate as well as flowing the 3 heads on one line would be more
demanding from a pressure loss standpoint, this other "company" is
calculating the heads in the living space and usually ending up with the 4
heads being from 3 separate lines.
I'm saying his system is underdesigned and doesn't represent the
"hydraulically most demanding sprinklers" and he is saying that my way is
over designed.

Are we spending too much money on our design (material costs) or is he
opening himself up to a liability issue?

Trying to determine which is actually the "right" way to design the system
as there are cost implications.

I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on
Tuesday August 22nd

Thanks

Brett Peters
General Manager Installation & Design
Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
br...@proudline.ca
780 490 7602 office ext 202
780 490 7605 fax
780 777 0568 cell
780 718 2676 24h
Visit us at www.proudline.ca

Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact
a...@proudline.ca for more information






On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 10:22 AM Greg McGahan 
wrote:

> The intent is to calculate the 4 most demanding sprinklers that would
> activate in a single fire event, therefore we tend to submit the version
> that reflects that scenario but we typically prove the calcs for our sake.
>
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 11:07 AM Brett Peters  wrote:
>
>> LOL, unfortunately I have someone arguing that it can be done the other
>> way because "those heads have a larger area of coverage".
>> In my opinion they are twisting the definitions of "adjacent" and
>> "hydraulically most demanding" to include the sprinklers that cover the
>> largest area but in my opinion the largest floor space doesn't
>> necessarily present as the most demanding.
>>
>> I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on
>> Tuesday August 22nd
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Brett Peters
>> General Manager Installation & Design
>> Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
>> br...@proudline.ca
>> 780 490 7602 office ext 202
>> 780 490 7605 fax
>> 780 777 0568 cell
>> 780 718 2676 24h
>> Visit us at www.proudline.ca
>>
>> Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact
>> a...@proudline.ca for more information
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 9:31 AM Chris Dorn <
>> chris.d...@dornfireprotection.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Brett,
>>>
>>> I think you answered your own question. “I always choose whatever gives
>>> me the greatest pressure loss not necessarily the larger flow.” Wouldn’t
>>> that by definition be the hydraulically most demanding area regardless of
>>> location? It’s exactly what I do also in this situation.
>>>
>>> Chris Dorn
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Brett Peters 
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2023 11:15 AM
>>> *To:* Sprinklerforum 
>>> *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Residential Design in NFPA 13
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Having a debate on which sprinklers actually have to be part of the
>>> hydraulic calculation in a residential unit in a 13 building (So the
>>> calculation has to include 4 sprinklers) - NFPA 13, 2013
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 11.3.1.1* The design area shall be the area that includes the four
>>> adjacent sprinklers that produce
>>>
>>> the greatest hydraulic demand.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> With 11.3.1.1 in mind if you have a space where you have less than 4
>>> sprinklers in a compartment and you have to start adding sprinklers in
>>> other compartments to come up with 4 in the calculation, what is the method
>>> that you have to use?
>>>
>>> So for arguments sake this scenario is 2 sprinklers in one compartment
>>> and then two "adjacent" sprinklers outside of that compartment but there
>>> are sprinklers in different directions that can be considered as "adjacent"
>>>
>>>1. Adding sprinklers from the next compartment on a different
>>>sprinkler line which would qualify as an "adjacent sprinkler" and
>>>potentially have 4 sprinklers fed form 3 different lines or
>>>2. adding "adjacent sprinklers" that are first on a common sprinkler
>>>line and potentially having 3 sprinklers on a single line.
>>>
>>> My argument is that scenario 2 has to be followed as that would produce
>>> the largest demand to a sprinkler line and if required increase the size of
>>> that line.
>>>
>>> The other argument is that in scenario 1 they are picking the "adjacent
>>> sprinkler" that has a larger protection area, so the actual water flow
>>> might be slightly higher but it spreads the flow through 3 different lines
>>> instead of only 2
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So scenario 1 has more flow but less pressure loss resulting in smaller

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

2023-07-20 Thread Greg McGahan

The intent is to calculate the 4 most demanding sprinklers that would
activate in a single fire event, therefore we tend to submit the version
that reflects that scenario but we typically prove the calcs for our sake.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 11:07 AM Brett Peters  wrote:

> LOL, unfortunately I have someone arguing that it can be done the other
> way because "those heads have a larger area of coverage".
> In my opinion they are twisting the definitions of "adjacent" and
> "hydraulically most demanding" to include the sprinklers that cover the
> largest area but in my opinion the largest floor space doesn't
> necessarily present as the most demanding.
>
> I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on
> Tuesday August 22nd
>
> Thanks
>
> Brett Peters
> General Manager Installation & Design
> Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
> br...@proudline.ca
> 780 490 7602 office ext 202
> 780 490 7605 fax
> 780 777 0568 cell
> 780 718 2676 24h
> Visit us at www.proudline.ca
>
> Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact
> a...@proudline.ca for more information
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 9:31 AM Chris Dorn <
> chris.d...@dornfireprotection.com> wrote:
>
>> Brett,
>>
>> I think you answered your own question. “I always choose whatever gives
>> me the greatest pressure loss not necessarily the larger flow.” Wouldn’t
>> that by definition be the hydraulically most demanding area regardless of
>> location? It’s exactly what I do also in this situation.
>>
>> Chris Dorn
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Brett Peters 
>> *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2023 11:15 AM
>> *To:* Sprinklerforum 
>> *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Residential Design in NFPA 13
>>
>>
>>
>> Having a debate on which sprinklers actually have to be part of the
>> hydraulic calculation in a residential unit in a 13 building (So the
>> calculation has to include 4 sprinklers) - NFPA 13, 2013
>>
>>
>>
>> 11.3.1.1* The design area shall be the area that includes the four
>> adjacent sprinklers that produce
>>
>> the greatest hydraulic demand.
>>
>>
>>
>> With 11.3.1.1 in mind if you have a space where you have less than 4
>> sprinklers in a compartment and you have to start adding sprinklers in
>> other compartments to come up with 4 in the calculation, what is the method
>> that you have to use?
>>
>> So for arguments sake this scenario is 2 sprinklers in one compartment
>> and then two "adjacent" sprinklers outside of that compartment but there
>> are sprinklers in different directions that can be considered as "adjacent"
>>
>>1. Adding sprinklers from the next compartment on a different
>>sprinkler line which would qualify as an "adjacent sprinkler" and
>>potentially have 4 sprinklers fed form 3 different lines or
>>2. adding "adjacent sprinklers" that are first on a common sprinkler
>>line and potentially having 3 sprinklers on a single line.
>>
>> My argument is that scenario 2 has to be followed as that would produce
>> the largest demand to a sprinkler line and if required increase the size of
>> that line.
>>
>> The other argument is that in scenario 1 they are picking the "adjacent
>> sprinkler" that has a larger protection area, so the actual water flow
>> might be slightly higher but it spreads the flow through 3 different lines
>> instead of only 2
>>
>>
>>
>> So scenario 1 has more flow but less pressure loss resulting in smaller
>> piping and scenario 2 has less flow but more pressure loss requiring larger
>> pipe to be installed.
>>
>>
>>
>> So what are other people doing in these situations and what is really
>> considered as producing the greatest hydraulic demand? I always choose
>> whatever gives me the greatest pressure loss not necessarily the larger
>> flow.
>>
>>
>>
>> I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on
>> Tuesday August 22nd
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Brett Peters
>>
>> General Manager Installation & Design
>>
>> Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
>>
>> br...@proudline.ca
>>
>> 780 490 7602 office ext 202
>>
>> 780 490 7605 fax
>>
>> 780 777 0568 cell
>>
>> 780 718 2676 24h
>>
>> Visit us at www.proudline.ca
>>
>>
>>
>> Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact
>> a...@proudline.ca for more information
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _
>> SprinklerForum mailing list:
>>
>> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>> sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org
>>
>
> _
> SprinklerForum mailing list:
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> To unsubscribe send an email to
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-- 

Greg McGahan

*Genesis Fire Services, LLC*

*4912 Glover Lane. Milton, FL **32570*

*P- 850-637-8535*

*C- 850-712-9555*

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

2023-07-20 Thread Chris Dorn

Then prove that area to them and keep your pipe sizing the same as if you were 
calculating the “real” hydraulically most demanding area. You are covered in 
both cases.
Chris

From: Brett Peters 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2023 12:06 PM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

LOL, unfortunately I have someone arguing that it can be done the other way 
because "those heads have a larger area of coverage".
In my opinion they are twisting the definitions of "adjacent" and 
"hydraulically most demanding" to include the sprinklers that cover the largest 
area but in my opinion the largest floor space doesn't necessarily present as 
the most demanding.

I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on Tuesday 
August 22nd

Thanks

Brett Peters
General Manager Installation & Design
Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
br...@proudline.ca<mailto:br...@proudline.ca>
780 490 7602 office ext 202
780 490 7605 fax
780 777 0568 cell
780 718 2676 24h
Visit us at www.proudline.ca<http://www.proudline.ca/>

Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact 
a...@proudline.ca<mailto:a...@proudline.ca> for more information

[https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4wRo6r0eNDUWx8YR-4XJLvwcnouQn_xEZH_HIb4jDbepWtON2RWC-ekzvZHKtncFOQqPcNQfzM]

[https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4yJVI287VPLDWiW9maE2Np3U4CdszCY9deeyaLl8DM90wlBd7pnuOZV9U-swv-7gWN_24py6vo]

[https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4wlGmqj6Ja06DKOIMLPvEE8B2W8fT_TPPA3w-4JfqygLq9n77ECSni09YLIVICXJYzWo4Z0PjU]

[https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4zEgPbs279KVEfWIpIiWNLel8zAlcloW9dNXGLTaE1cMz88CRkmg17fju5BQB_iIzhWK20DUL8]

[https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4z7J0kfmSGA8jKvDK0pTqW3KQlc5v-tYcWosmy5W7pdok462Gzu_9Ft7UK9oJUWDT1DzhQ4hUU]

[https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4wTVHoTZxkppBoWSCTFnGLgGTq0apivi8sNvWPyBsloO0mmy8ZYu4Ax854jo7ihTMFyeYeOceg]

[https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4xwBWEOX5v9mpza4Jqf9lOKSwThBNvyIO7Rl-Cxo7NRiV7p70C0f1biwbh44Y-iIA5GcmD1MCo]

[https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/mail-sig/AIorK4yPfO1HdtbQPYiKlYE38cwc88ABhX7xN1nh0fCK5LjFXjKplJggk3Xn6_XypmtMWyADKR7ZRGk]

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 9:31 AM Chris Dorn 
mailto:chris.d...@dornfireprotection.com>> 
wrote:
Brett,
I think you answered your own question. “I always choose whatever gives me the 
greatest pressure loss not necessarily the larger flow.” Wouldn’t that by 
definition be the hydraulically most demanding area regardless of location? 
It’s exactly what I do also in this situation.
Chris Dorn

From: Brett Peters mailto:br...@proudline.ca>>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2023 11:15 AM
To: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Residential Design in NFPA 13

Having a debate on which sprinklers actually have to be part of the hydraulic 
calculation in a residential unit in a 13 building (So the calculation has to 
include 4 sprinklers) - NFPA 13, 2013

11.3.1.1* The design area shall be the area that includes the four adjacent 
sprinklers that produce
the greatest hydraulic demand.

With 11.3.1.1 in mind if you have a space where you have less than 4 sprinklers 
in a compartment and you have to start adding sprinklers in other compartments 
to come up with 4 in the calculation, what is the method that you have to use?
So for arguments sake this scenario is 2 sprinklers in one compartment and then 
two "adjacent" sprinklers outside of that compartment but there are sprinklers 
in different directions that can be considered as "adjacent"

  1.  Adding sprinklers from the next compartment on a different sprinkler line 
which would qualify as an "adjacent sprinkler" and potentially have 4 
sprinklers fed form 3 different lines or
  2.  adding "adjacent sprinklers" that are first on a common sprinkler line 
and potentially having 3 sprinklers on a single line.
My argument is that scenario 2 has to be followed as that would produce the 
largest demand to a sprinkler line and if required increase the size of that 
line.
The other argument is that in scenario 1 they are picking the "adjacent 
sprinkler" that has a larger protection area, so the actual water flow might be 
slightly higher but it spreads the flow through 3 different lines instead of 
only 2

So scenario 1 has more flow but less pressure loss resulting in smaller piping 
and scenario 2 has less flow but more pressure loss requiring larger pipe to be 
installed.

So what are other people doing in these situations and what is really 
considered as producing the greatest hydraulic demand? I always choose whatever 
gives me the greatest pressure loss not necessarily the larger flow.

I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on Tue

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

2023-07-20 Thread Brett Peters

LOL, unfortunately I have someone arguing that it can be done the other way
because "those heads have a larger area of coverage".
In my opinion they are twisting the definitions of "adjacent" and
"hydraulically most demanding" to include the sprinklers that cover the
largest area but in my opinion the largest floor space doesn't
necessarily present as the most demanding.

I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on
Tuesday August 22nd

Thanks

Brett Peters
General Manager Installation & Design
Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
br...@proudline.ca
780 490 7602 office ext 202
780 490 7605 fax
780 777 0568 cell
780 718 2676 24h
Visit us at www.proudline.ca

Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact
a...@proudline.ca for more information






On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 9:31 AM Chris Dorn <
chris.d...@dornfireprotection.com> wrote:

> Brett,
>
> I think you answered your own question. “I always choose whatever gives me
> the greatest pressure loss not necessarily the larger flow.” Wouldn’t that
> by definition be the hydraulically most demanding area regardless of
> location? It’s exactly what I do also in this situation.
>
> Chris Dorn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Brett Peters 
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2023 11:15 AM
> *To:* Sprinklerforum 
> *Subject:* [Sprinklerforum] Residential Design in NFPA 13
>
>
>
> Having a debate on which sprinklers actually have to be part of the
> hydraulic calculation in a residential unit in a 13 building (So the
> calculation has to include 4 sprinklers) - NFPA 13, 2013
>
>
>
> 11.3.1.1* The design area shall be the area that includes the four
> adjacent sprinklers that produce
>
> the greatest hydraulic demand.
>
>
>
> With 11.3.1.1 in mind if you have a space where you have less than 4
> sprinklers in a compartment and you have to start adding sprinklers in
> other compartments to come up with 4 in the calculation, what is the method
> that you have to use?
>
> So for arguments sake this scenario is 2 sprinklers in one compartment and
> then two "adjacent" sprinklers outside of that compartment but there are
> sprinklers in different directions that can be considered as "adjacent"
>
>1. Adding sprinklers from the next compartment on a different
>sprinkler line which would qualify as an "adjacent sprinkler" and
>potentially have 4 sprinklers fed form 3 different lines or
>2. adding "adjacent sprinklers" that are first on a common sprinkler
>line and potentially having 3 sprinklers on a single line.
>
> My argument is that scenario 2 has to be followed as that would produce
> the largest demand to a sprinkler line and if required increase the size of
> that line.
>
> The other argument is that in scenario 1 they are picking the "adjacent
> sprinkler" that has a larger protection area, so the actual water flow
> might be slightly higher but it spreads the flow through 3 different lines
> instead of only 2
>
>
>
> So scenario 1 has more flow but less pressure loss resulting in smaller
> piping and scenario 2 has less flow but more pressure loss requiring larger
> pipe to be installed.
>
>
>
> So what are other people doing in these situations and what is really
> considered as producing the greatest hydraulic demand? I always choose
> whatever gives me the greatest pressure loss not necessarily the larger
> flow.
>
>
>
> I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on
> Tuesday August 22nd
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Brett Peters
>
> General Manager Installation & Design
>
> Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
>
> br...@proudline.ca
>
> 780 490 7602 office ext 202
>
> 780 490 7605 fax
>
> 780 777 0568 cell
>
> 780 718 2676 24h
>
> Visit us at www.proudline.ca
>
>
>
> Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact
> a...@proudline.ca for more information
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _
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> To unsubscribe send an email to
> sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org
>

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

2023-07-20 Thread cliff

Brett,



If there is any doubt, show both remote areas on the drawings, then the AHJ 
won’t have any questions.



Cliff Whitfield, SET

President



Fire Design, Inc.

940 Summerbrooke Dr

Tallahassee, FL 32312

Ph: 828-284-4772





From: Brett Peters 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2023 11:15 AM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Residential Design in NFPA 13



Having a debate on which sprinklers actually have to be part of the hydraulic 
calculation in a residential unit in a 13 building (So the calculation has to 
include 4 sprinklers) - NFPA 13, 2013



11.3.1.1* The design area shall be the area that includes the four adjacent 
sprinklers that produce

the greatest hydraulic demand.



With 11.3.1.1 in mind if you have a space where you have less than 4 sprinklers 
in a compartment and you have to start adding sprinklers in other compartments 
to come up with 4 in the calculation, what is the method that you have to use?

So for arguments sake this scenario is 2 sprinklers in one compartment and then 
two "adjacent" sprinklers outside of that compartment but there are sprinklers 
in different directions that can be considered as "adjacent"

1.  Adding sprinklers from the next compartment on a different sprinkler 
line which would qualify as an "adjacent sprinkler" and potentially have 4 
sprinklers fed form 3 different lines or
2.  adding "adjacent sprinklers" that are first on a common sprinkler line 
and potentially having 3 sprinklers on a single line.

My argument is that scenario 2 has to be followed as that would produce the 
largest demand to a sprinkler line and if required increase the size of that 
line.

The other argument is that in scenario 1 they are picking the "adjacent 
sprinkler" that has a larger protection area, so the actual water flow might be 
slightly higher but it spreads the flow through 3 different lines instead of 
only 2



So scenario 1 has more flow but less pressure loss resulting in smaller piping 
and scenario 2 has less flow but more pressure loss requiring larger pipe to be 
installed.



So what are other people doing in these situations and what is really 
considered as producing the greatest hydraulic demand? I always choose whatever 
gives me the greatest pressure loss not necessarily the larger flow.



I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on Tuesday 
August 22nd



Thanks



Brett Peters

General Manager Installation & Design

Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.

br...@proudline.ca 

780 490 7602 office ext 202

780 490 7605 fax

780 777 0568 cell

780 718 2676 24h

Visit us at www.proudline.ca 



Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact 
a...@proudline.ca   for more information







  


















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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

2023-07-20 Thread Chris Dorn

Brett,
I think you answered your own question. “I always choose whatever gives me the 
greatest pressure loss not necessarily the larger flow.” Wouldn’t that by 
definition be the hydraulically most demanding area regardless of location? 
It’s exactly what I do also in this situation.
Chris Dorn



From: Brett Peters 
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2023 11:15 AM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Residential Design in NFPA 13

Having a debate on which sprinklers actually have to be part of the hydraulic 
calculation in a residential unit in a 13 building (So the calculation has to 
include 4 sprinklers) - NFPA 13, 2013

11.3.1.1* The design area shall be the area that includes the four adjacent 
sprinklers that produce
the greatest hydraulic demand.

With 11.3.1.1 in mind if you have a space where you have less than 4 sprinklers 
in a compartment and you have to start adding sprinklers in other compartments 
to come up with 4 in the calculation, what is the method that you have to use?
So for arguments sake this scenario is 2 sprinklers in one compartment and then 
two "adjacent" sprinklers outside of that compartment but there are sprinklers 
in different directions that can be considered as "adjacent"

  1.  Adding sprinklers from the next compartment on a different sprinkler line 
which would qualify as an "adjacent sprinkler" and potentially have 4 
sprinklers fed form 3 different lines or
  2.  adding "adjacent sprinklers" that are first on a common sprinkler line 
and potentially having 3 sprinklers on a single line.
My argument is that scenario 2 has to be followed as that would produce the 
largest demand to a sprinkler line and if required increase the size of that 
line.
The other argument is that in scenario 1 they are picking the "adjacent 
sprinkler" that has a larger protection area, so the actual water flow might be 
slightly higher but it spreads the flow through 3 different lines instead of 
only 2

So scenario 1 has more flow but less pressure loss resulting in smaller piping 
and scenario 2 has less flow but more pressure loss requiring larger pipe to be 
installed.

So what are other people doing in these situations and what is really 
considered as producing the greatest hydraulic demand? I always choose whatever 
gives me the greatest pressure loss not necessarily the larger flow.

I will be on Holidays from August 12th to 21st, returning to work on Tuesday 
August 22nd

Thanks

Brett Peters
General Manager Installation & Design
Proudline Fire Protection Services Ltd.
br...@proudline.ca
780 490 7602 office ext 202
780 490 7605 fax
780 777 0568 cell
780 718 2676 24h
Visit us at www.proudline.ca

Proudline now offers ULc listed monitoring services, please contact 
a...@proudline.ca for more information



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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Residential Design in NFPA 13

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