[biofuels-biz] Re: butanol process
thanx... did he post it here on this list? --- In biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com, goat industries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've just been told that it works well. If you read the Canecki report about a week ago that Keith re-posted you will see that they thought that water inhibited the reaction, which made a lot of sense to me. Get the water out of the solution and you can theoretically get 100% esterification. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: butanol process
thanx... did he post it here on this list? Of course, or he would have said so, wouldn't he? Check the archives, that's what it's for after all. http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=1952list=BIOFUELS-BIZ Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 00:21:00 +0900 To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] copy of high ffa study Hello, I too would like to get hold of a copy of this document. Canakci/Van Gerpen study Biodiesel production from Oils and Fats with High Free Fatty Acids Many thanks, Tom Branigan Paddy distributed this study to some or many of us some while back. Attached is the document biodiesel production from oiils and fats with high FFA's.doc. Appologies for lack of corrections and bad formatting ... Paddy It came in for some criticism, from me and others: Some of us thought the Canakci-Van Gerpen paper was rather muddled and confused about a few things, such as what it said about the interphase. I wasn't too persuaded by the main drift of the paper. Loads of methanol, loads of acid, all those stages - can it possibly be worth it? I'd had quite a high opinion of Van Gerpen's work before reading this paper, but it took a nosedive. The subject at the time was mainly processing crude palm oil in Thailand. I believe Michael Allen got further with Aleks Kac's acid-base method than with this study (which appeared eight months after Aleks's method, by the way, let me add, as some people seem to be saying that it had inspired Aleks's work). Anyway, here's a text-only version of the study, below - I haven't corrected it and the tables probably aren't legible. Best Keith --- In biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com, goat industries [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've just been told that it works well. If you read the Canecki report about a week ago that Keith re-posted you will see that they thought that water inhibited the reaction, which made a lot of sense to me. Get the water out of the solution and you can theoretically get 100% esterification. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] butanol process and biodiesel biproduct
David, I'm not convinced that the 'the mixture of FFAs and glycerol that combine in our 'by-product'.' that you mention does actually contain FFA. I recently aquired a sample of 95% pure oleic acid and found that it was completely soluble in biodiesel. Also, other FFA's will be solids which would be visible as solids as soon as the mixture cooled down. Personnally, I don't have any other explanations, although I'm sure there are others more qualified to comment Paddy Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Biodiesel Bulletin
BIODIESEL BULLETIN A Monthly Newsletter of the National Biodiesel Board January 2, 2003 HEADLINES: ARLINGTON COUNTY VEHICLES SWITCH TO BIODIESEL STUDY FINDS ILLINOIS TAX INCENTIVE WOULD HAVE POSITIVE ECONOMIC IMPACT WASHINGTON UPDATE BIODIESEL FACILITY BEGINS PRODUCTION IN RALSTON, IOWA SPECIAL ALERT ö DONâT DELAY! REGISTER NOW FOR THE BIODIESEL RESEARCH AND BRAINSTORMING WORKSHOP ARLINGTON COUNTY VEHICLES SWITCH TO BIODIESEL Predictions that the D.C. area will significantly exceed vehicle exhaust limits have made Arlington County a role model for the metro area, thanks to its efforts to reduce pollution by switching to cleaner burning biodiesel in its 500 diesel-powered vehicles. Arlington County is home to the Pentagon and numerous office complexes and has approximately 190,000 residents. It recently became the first county in the Washington region and the first county in Virginia to begin using domestically produced biodiesel in vehicles ranging from school buses to fire trucks to garbage trucks. ãWe started using B20 in all our diesel-powered vehicles because we saw an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone: clean the air and use a renewable fuel,ä said Ric Hiller, Chief of the Equipment Division for Arlington, County. ãWeâre very pleased with biodiesel so far.ä A recent analysis by transportation planners at the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments found that the Washington region is expected to exceed limits on exhaust by 30 percent due in large part to an increase in sport-utility vehicles, pickups and diesel trucks. STUDY FINDS ILLINOIS TAX INCENTIVE WOULD HAVE POSITIVE ECONOMIC IMPACT A recently released study commissioned by the Illinois Soybean Association (ISA) finds that a state tax incentive for biodiesel would have a positive impact on Illinois soybean producers and taxpayers alike, as well as help boost the stateâs economy. Economist John Urbanchuk, director of LECG economic consulting services firm, conducted the study. The study predicts that national demand for biodiesel will increase to more than 500 million gallons by 2012 as the nationâs highway motor fuel supply incorporates renewable fuels. Thatâs 2.4 billion gallons of biodiesel over the next decade. Since Illinois presently accounts for about four percent of all diesel fuel consumed in the U.S., Urbanchuk says consumption of biodiesel in Illinois is expected to increase from less than two million gallons in 2003 to nearly 20 million gallons by 2012. Illinois is also expected to produce more than 520 million gallons of biodiesel over the next decade, which will require 372 million bushels of soybeans. ãIllinois is one of the nationâs largest soybean producers with the second largest soybean crushing and fats and oils refining industries,ä Urbanchuk said. ãTaken together, Illinois accounts for about 20 percent of U.S. soybean production and processing. The partial exemption from sales and use tax will improve the competitive position of Illinois soybean processors compared to surrounding states, and will assure that Illinois will at least maintain and likely increase its share of the business.ä A tax incentive bill entitled ãUse OCC Tax-Ethanol Credits Bill,ä or HB 46, will be introduced by state representative Julie Curry from Decatur in January. Specifically, the bill would extend the current ethanol tax incentive through 2013, and open the incentive to alternative fuels such as biodiesel. The sales and use tax of 6.25 percent would be reduced by 25 percent during 2003-2007 and by 20 percent during 2008-2012 on biodiesel blends of up to 10 percent. Biodiesel and ethanol with more than 10 percent biomass origin would be exempt from the tax. For more information on the bill or the studyâs findings, visit the ISA Web site at www.ilsoy.org and click on ãwhatâs new.ä WASHINGTON UPDATE December brought even more changes to the Congressional leadership in Washington. Incoming Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott (R-MS) resigned his leadership position mid-month and Senator Bill Frist (R-TN) was soon elected to fill the role. Senator Fristâs rise to power has been swift and he is still largely unknown outside of Washington and his home state of Tennessee. He has served on the Budget Committee, the Foreign Relations Committee and the Health, Education, Labor Pensions Committee. State agriculture groups have a good working relationship with him and expect he will be supportive of most biodiesel and ethanol initiatives. Newly elected Governor of Alaska and former Senator Frank Murkowski has appointed his daughter to fill his seat in the Senate. Lisa Murkowski will fill the remaining two years in her fatherâs term. She is expected to resume fatherâs fight for drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and to focus on other energy issues. The 108th Congress will be sworn in on January 7. Budget issues will dominate early activities. BIODIESEL FACILITY BEGINS PRODUCTION IN RALSTON,
[biofuels-biz] oil @ $33 per barrel
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/dowjones/20030103/bs_dowjones/200301031651000359 Nothing special in this article, just linking it for the price-reference. It is interesting to see Venezuela exacerbating the situation (as though a gulf war wouldn't already drive prices up). Not mentioned is the issue of the Strategic Reserve. I hope that the price of oil goes up because the sooner we see some of the reality of our importation needs, the better. But, on the issue of the reserve, my recollection is I read an article a few weeks ago wondering aloud if President Bush would tap into it if a war came and claiming that arguably an error by his father had been to not go into it soon enough during the previous Gulf War. I hope this President keeps making the same error. In a way it's understandable. I warship or an F-16 can't exactly wage war without some oil. In the long run, it'll be best for the States, I think, to understand the consequences of our oil setup. What's good for Exxon-Mobil is not necessarily the same thing as what's good for citizens of The United States. This article seems to have looked at the reserve question last week: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/nm/20021230/bs_nm/energy_congress_dc_4 Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] oil @ $33 per barrel
Aye, but it's not just the oil prices that are going to freak people out at the pumps or when paying the tab for home heating oil. Have an ailing airline industry tetering on the brink? Higher fares = less customers which equals increased tailspin. Have a struggling economy and a president who hopes to blue blazes consumers go out and buy, buy, buy? Not on your life if the cost of goods start going up as a result of increase fuel costs. Which equals another tailspin on consumer purchases. Fewer purchases = more layoffs. More layoffs = fewer purchases. Have a war being staged in the wings that will inevitably disrupt oil economics, especially when already in a destabilized price escalation mode? Well gee Rummy! Maybe we should hold off a bit on the moral imperitive (or was that oil imperitive) so we can keep our poll ratings stablized. Jimmy Carter is probably shaking his head in amazement at how stupidly repetetive all this continues to be, decade after decade. Fireside chat with G.W. Shrub anyone? Hopefully he'll wear something a little more functional than a golf sweater. Maybe he'll even reinstall those solar collectors atop the White House that uncle Ronny had removed right after his election in 1980. At times like this, perhaps the world should be thankful for how Florida turned over so that the ignorance of US oil/foreign policy can be magnified enough for even the most near sighted. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 9:44 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] oil @ $33 per barrel http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/dowjones/20030103/ bs_dowjones/200301031651000359 Nothing special in this article, just linking it for the price-reference. It is interesting to see Venezuela exacerbating the situation (as though a gulf war wouldn't already drive prices up). Not mentioned is the issue of the Strategic Reserve. I hope that the price of oil goes up because the sooner we see some of the reality of our importation needs, the better. But, on the issue of the reserve, my recollection is I read an article a few weeks ago wondering aloud if President Bush would tap into it if a war came and claiming that arguably an error by his father had been to not go into it soon enough during the previous Gulf War. I hope this President keeps making the same error. In a way it's understandable. I warship or an F-16 can't exactly wage war without some oil. In the long run, it'll be best for the States, I think, to understand the consequences of our oil setup. What's good for Exxon-Mobil is not necessarily the same thing as what's good for citizens of The United States. This article seems to have looked at the reserve question last week: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/nm/20021230/bs_nm/ energy_congress_dc_4 Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] oil @ $33 per barrel
Todd, You are very right in what you are saying and the higher oil price is probably also a result of that US government now is escalating the buying of oil for the reserve deposits. They were only half full or is it half empty? A handout from the government to their friends, with the perfect excuse of the upcoming war, after all it is Christmas season. The effect of Home land security on oil prices? Hakan At 11:02 PM 1/3/2003 -0500, you wrote: Aye, but it's not just the oil prices that are going to freak people out at the pumps or when paying the tab for home heating oil. Have an ailing airline industry tetering on the brink? Higher fares = less customers which equals increased tailspin. Have a struggling economy and a president who hopes to blue blazes consumers go out and buy, buy, buy? Not on your life if the cost of goods start going up as a result of increase fuel costs. Which equals another tailspin on consumer purchases. Fewer purchases = more layoffs. More layoffs = fewer purchases. Have a war being staged in the wings that will inevitably disrupt oil economics, especially when already in a destabilized price escalation mode? Well gee Rummy! Maybe we should hold off a bit on the moral imperitive (or was that oil imperitive) so we can keep our poll ratings stablized. Jimmy Carter is probably shaking his head in amazement at how stupidly repetetive all this continues to be, decade after decade. Fireside chat with G.W. Shrub anyone? Hopefully he'll wear something a little more functional than a golf sweater. Maybe he'll even reinstall those solar collectors atop the White House that uncle Ronny had removed right after his election in 1980. At times like this, perhaps the world should be thankful for how Florida turned over so that the ignorance of US oil/foreign policy can be magnified enough for even the most near sighted. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 9:44 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] oil @ $33 per barrel http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/dowjones/20030103/ bs_dowjones/200301031651000359 Nothing special in this article, just linking it for the price-reference. It is interesting to see Venezuela exacerbating the situation (as though a gulf war wouldn't already drive prices up). Not mentioned is the issue of the Strategic Reserve. I hope that the price of oil goes up because the sooner we see some of the reality of our importation needs, the better. But, on the issue of the reserve, my recollection is I read an article a few weeks ago wondering aloud if President Bush would tap into it if a war came and claiming that arguably an error by his father had been to not go into it soon enough during the previous Gulf War. I hope this President keeps making the same error. In a way it's understandable. I warship or an F-16 can't exactly wage war without some oil. In the long run, it'll be best for the States, I think, to understand the consequences of our oil setup. What's good for Exxon-Mobil is not necessarily the same thing as what's good for citizens of The United States. This article seems to have looked at the reserve question last week: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/nm/20021230/bs_nm/ energy_congress_dc_4 Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] oil @ $33 per barrel
The policies being effected by the present administration are counter productive to true short and long term Homeland Security. They're political manuvers to secure short term responses that supposedly offer the appearance of preferential results. With luck maybe the security of another four years. (Luck for whom?) No different than corporations establishing policies based upon quarterly returns rather than long term results. One is a crap shoot. The other is a bonafied strategy. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 12:31 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] oil @ $33 per barrel Todd, You are very right in what you are saying and the higher oil price is probably also a result of that US government now is escalating the buying of oil for the reserve deposits. They were only half full or is it half empty? A handout from the government to their friends, with the perfect excuse of the upcoming war, after all it is Christmas season. The effect of Home land security on oil prices? Hakan At 11:02 PM 1/3/2003 -0500, you wrote: Aye, but it's not just the oil prices that are going to freak people out at the pumps or when paying the tab for home heating oil. Have an ailing airline industry tetering on the brink? Higher fares = less customers which equals increased tailspin. Have a struggling economy and a president who hopes to blue blazes consumers go out and buy, buy, buy? Not on your life if the cost of goods start going up as a result of increase fuel costs. Which equals another tailspin on consumer purchases. Fewer purchases = more layoffs. More layoffs = fewer purchases. Have a war being staged in the wings that will inevitably disrupt oil economics, especially when already in a destabilized price escalation mode? Well gee Rummy! Maybe we should hold off a bit on the moral imperitive (or was that oil imperitive) so we can keep our poll ratings stablized. Jimmy Carter is probably shaking his head in amazement at how stupidly repetetive all this continues to be, decade after decade. Fireside chat with G.W. Shrub anyone? Hopefully he'll wear something a little more functional than a golf sweater. Maybe he'll even reinstall those solar collectors atop the White House that uncle Ronny had removed right after his election in 1980. At times like this, perhaps the world should be thankful for how Florida turned over so that the ignorance of US oil/foreign policy can be magnified enough for even the most near sighted. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 9:44 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] oil @ $33 per barrel http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/dowjones/20030103 / bs_dowjones/200301031651000359 Nothing special in this article, just linking it for the price-reference. It is interesting to see Venezuela exacerbating the situation (as though a gulf war wouldn't already drive prices up). Not mentioned is the issue of the Strategic Reserve. I hope that the price of oil goes up because the sooner we see some of the reality of our importation needs, the better. But, on the issue of the reserve, my recollection is I read an article a few weeks ago wondering aloud if President Bush would tap into it if a war came and claiming that arguably an error by his father had been to not go into it soon enough during the previous Gulf War. I hope this President keeps making the same error. In a way it's understandable. I warship or an F-16 can't exactly wage war without some oil. In the long run, it'll be best for the States, I think, to understand the consequences of our oil setup. What's good for Exxon-Mobil is not necessarily the same thing as what's good for citizens of The United States. This article seems to have looked at the reserve question last week: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/nm/20021230/bs_nm / energy_congress_dc_4 Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info
Re: [biofuels-biz] oil @ $33 per barrel
Have a struggling economy and a president who hopes to blue blazes consumers go out and buy, buy, buy? Not on your life if the cost of goods start going up as a result of increase fuel costs. Which equals another tailspin on consumer purchases. I used to have a rule in going clothing shopping to avoid, as much as possible, any artificial materials. But I must confess recently some of them seem better-done. I still try to avoid them, but if oil prices go up, so too might some clothing prices, and not that insignificantly. Even if made 12,000 miles away, a shirt with rayon or whatever in it will cost a bit more. At times like this, perhaps the world should be thankful for how Florida turned over so that the ignorance of US oil/foreign policy can be magnified enough for even the most near sighted. It's been surreal watching this happen, and will continue to be. It's possible that you are correct that it is perhaps better to see this play out sooner rather than later. I think the President caresto do his job and to see the U.S. to a bright future, but there are times when he seems to care more about protecting the Status Quo of Exxon-Mobil and GM. MM Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] jatropha@india - musings
Interesting days, these... NEW DELHI: The Government is mulling investment of over Rs 17,500 crore to undertake a comprehensive programme for extracting oil from Jatropha plantations for blending with diesel. [1] I am also told that the Indian Railways intends to use a 10% mix of Jatropha oil in its diesel rail engines to save about Rs. 300 crores (circa USD 60 million) this year(2003) from its fuel bill. However, I am just wondering whether it needs to be only jatropha all the way. India is a repository of various agroclimatic zones and there are various trees that can yield VOs to a significant extent. For example, across India, one can find various oilseed bearing trees like: Madhuca indica, Pongamia glabra, Cacophyllum inophyllum, Salvadora oleoides, Actinodaphine hookerii, Schleichera trijuga, Hydnocarpus wightiana, Shorea robusta, Vateria indica, Garcinia indica, Mesua ferrea, Mallotus phillip et al... even the common azadirachta indica (neem) and nicotiana tabacum (tobacco) can be explored. On the one hand we can be happy that blended VOs are going to be used - but then, by resorting to 'commercial' monocrops of one oilseed bearing species, the benefits that could accrue over a period of time can only be dubious at best, IMHO! If you throw in the NGOs brigade (who revel in sailing along *any* funding_wind [2]) and the forest department (whose idea of 'social' forestry so far is to plant eucalyptus trees all over India) - I don't know what the outcome is going to be. And as for calling SVOs and Blended VOs as 'biodiesel' by the media - please don't get me started on *that*! ;-) __ramjee. [1] Business online - Monday, December 9, 2002 http://www.hinduonnet.com/bline/blnus/14091304.htm Govt mulls investment for bio-diesel NEW DELHI: The Government is mulling investment of over Rs 17,500 crore to undertake a comprehensive programme for extracting oil from Jatropha plantations for blending with diesel. The investment, to be undertaken under a National Mission on Jatropha during the Tenth Plan, would have a multi-purpose objective of making available bio-diesel in the country, greening five million hectares of degraded waste land, generating employment and reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Under the mission, being formulated by the Planning Commission, it is proposed to take up plantation of Jatropha on five million hectares consisting of two million hectares through joint forestry management committees and under Social Forestry programme by Government agencies and three million hectares outside forest areas through voluntary organisations. If the programme is approved now, the nurseries and seedlings would be available next year for plantation and the diesel would be available from 2004. - PTI [2] Foreign aid to Indian NGOs considered harmful http://www.qsl.net/vu2sro/foreign_aid_considered_harmful.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Food for thought Was: Fish Farms Become FeedlotsoftheSea 12-28-02
I feel the same way about this social pressure.Almost as if it's (the pressure) being used as (quite an effective) substitute for the secret police used to keep the dissenters quiet. Who needs the secret police ... when Aunt Meg, Uncle Fred and Cousin Jim will just as effectively do the job for free?? Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's sad, really, that in a country of supposedly free people, I find an inordinate amount of social pressure to keep silent about my dissent. The fact that I don't is, in my view, the mark of an individual raised in a free country. There seem to be very few people questioning the American political leadership these days. That seems a dangerous thing. . . Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Supply Demand Was: Hydrogen Fuel Cells Obsolete
Yeah, but without energy centralization, how else are they (corporate) going to create the desired enviroment of I've got it ALL ... you're a heroin-addict that desperately needs it ... now let's discuss the price?? Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Try this tack, meanwhile - you're taking the same approach as the top-down, centralist question of How much land will it take to grow 'enough' biofuels... Too much, is the answer they come up, and then they abandon the whole idea as impractical. Wrong question, wrong approach. Have a look in the archives. Start at the other end of the scale, the local-level, micro-niches, decentralised energy supply, small-scale, on-farm and off. Consider (once again!) that 15% and rising of the world's food supply is produced with the use of no land at all, nor any fossil-fuel inputs, and biofuels could (should) be produced via the same approach. No need for saltwater seaweed GMO mega-projects with all the inevitable and unpredictable side-effects and it solves all the wrong problems anyway. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Spreading Democracy Was: Simple economics
To try and_make_ everybody like them?? NOT!! It's called spreading DEMOCRACY. After all, we do carry the (singing) arm of GOD ... TRUTH AND RIGHT. Didn't you know that?? Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Alan S. Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Worse, they think that everyone _should_ be like them, so they try and_make_ everybody like them. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The concept of grid-chargeable hybrids isn't mentioned but I think it is on the minds of many activists. Once a hybrid owner has the chance to drive on Electricity alone, he or she might well be interested in a pure EV. At the least it allows petroleum-free operation. At present none are offered to the public nor talked-about by the major makers. Precisely why the major automakers are not allowing drivers to experience true electrics. I maintain a list of many of the electric vehicles on the road in North America (http://www.econogics.com/ev/evwhere.htm). One trend I am noticing is that people that have had their OEM EVs (eg Honda EV+, GM EV-1) taken back (lease up, no offer to renew or extend) are purchasing Corbin Sparrows. Quite a step down on the price curve, and a single-seater, but still electric. There is nothing about a hybrid which precludes the use of a fuel cell in place of an internal combustion engine. I'm guessing that we might see such a thing if a durable good fuel cell powered by a conventional liquid fuel as developed. I'm skeptical of the success of hydrogen. Actually, hybrids as offered today from Toyota and Honda, and proposed by Daimler- Chrysler are really electric-assist gasoline burners. They do not have an electric motor large enough to sustain extended accelerations or acceleration at highway speeds. To build a car where the ICE could be replaced by a fuel cell would require an all-electric drive train, which is not being provided by the automakers yet. In the case of a series hybrid (where the ICE just charges the batteries, but does not power the drive train directly), then I would agree with your statement. Personally, I'm skeptical of fuel cells for mobile use altogether. Hydrogen just presents more handling, storage and production issues than current liquid fuels. Diesels today can already achieve the efficiencies the fuel cell guys are still shooting for. Clearly, biodiesel should be the fuel of choice in those diesel engines. (Still working toward my biodiesel-electric hybrid car as cashflow permits.) Darryl McMahon 48 Tarquin Crescent, Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8 It's your planet. Voice: (613)784-0655 If you won't look Fax: (613)828-3199 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Food for thought
Keith Addison wrote: Anyway, hadn't you guys over there better start thinking about taking your country back? Please??? Regards Keith We'd love to, but by the time we actually GET to vote, the decent candidates have been long outspent by the political machine that perpetuates business as usual. Yes, that's one of the main things you have to take back. Worse, many of us have been so brainwashed into believing the swill that spews forth from Washington that our hackles raise whenever anyone questions the wisdom of a given policy. ... and that's what a LOT of all that campaign money, and various other ill-gotten gains gets spent on - PR and spin. One effect seems to be a really unnatural level of this divisive, us-vs-them, common bipolar disorder thinking that simply shoves a dissenting view, whatever its merits, into the enemy camp. If you're not for us you're against us. This is not how confident, secure, independent, mature people behave. When I forwarded the article posted here on SUV tax breaks to friends and family, I received the NASTIEST responses from people who are RELATED to me! It seems they actually believe that Mr. Bush and his administration truly have the best interest of America in mind whenever they dream up a policy. (And I get continually reminded that I didn't vote for him!) It's sad, really, that in a country of supposedly free people, I find an inordinate amount of social pressure to keep silent about my dissent. The fact that I don't is, in my view, the mark of an individual raised in a free country. There seem to be very few people questioning the American political leadership these days. That seems a dangerous thing. . . I get the impression that a hell of a lot of Americans are questioning it, and rejecting it, more and more loudly, but that the mainstream media don't at all reflect that (despite their alleged left-wing bias - LOL!). Here at home, alternative media--not just the Internet, but video and community access TV; community, low power, and pirate radio; zines and community newspapers; and political music, dance, and art--are flourishing under the radar. New and revived forms of organizing are energizing people not interested in traditional petitions, lobbying of Congress or the White House, marches, meetings, and the Same Old Chants. The phenomenal early December turnout at Garfield High School, where some 2,000 activists turned out specifically to sign up for volunteer work, is an obvious example. So was the euphoric student walk-out and march that week, organized and led almost entirely by high school students. Is evil afoot these days? Yep, and the omnicidal bipartisan stampede in Washington (and the greedy bastards they work for) have a corner on the market. But that has the advantage of letting us know where our work lies. There's lots to do, and plenty of reasons to believe it can and will matter; the outcome is clear only when we choose to stand idly by. Here's to regime change at home in 2003. - Geov Parrish, Peace on Earth: Maybe Next Year http://eatthestate.org/07-09/PeaceonEarth.htm Apt New Year toast. Keith robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Food for thought
Keith writes: Anyway, hadn't you guys over there better start thinking about taking your country back? Please??? Great idea, but hard to do when the Democrats haven't got anyone to offer but a bunch of uninspiring wimps who would've been called Republicans back in the good ol' days :-). I think, as usual, it has to get worse before it'll get better.-K No, I meant take it back, not just give it to the other lot. Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Food for thought
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith writes: Anyway, hadn't you guys over there better start thinking about taking your country back? Please??? Great idea, but hard to do when the Democrats haven't got anyone to offer but a bunch of uninspiring wimps who would've been called Republicans back in the good ol' days :-). I think, as usual, it has to get worse before it'll get better.-K No, I meant take it back, not just give it to the other lot. Keith Keith, Some of us are in active pursuit of that goal. It can't be done from the Top down, or effectively from the Grass Roots up. It needs to be a concerted effort on all levels at once. And you are correct in your statement that both major Parties will need to go. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
Hi MM I'm a little confused. I thought that GM has announced having to turn to Toyota for hybrid technology to bring these hybrids out. But in this USA Today presentation, no mention seems to be made of that, and at the end GM comes off as some sort of supposed innovator in the field. Yes, while Toyota follows in front. The concept of grid-chargeable hybrids isn't mentioned but I think it is on the minds of many activists. Once a hybrid owner has the chance to drive on Electricity alone, he or she might well be interested in a pure EV. At the least it allows petroleum-free operation. At present none are offered to the public nor talked-about by the major makers. Didn't you enjoy the authoritative quote by Anne Hanson, an Ann Arbor, Mich., marketing consultant and former marketing chief with Ford's electric vehicle program? Did the former chief of the Edsel marketing program get to make authoritative statements afterwards? Or was he out selling Tupperware? Or am I reading it all wrong? This is from State Takes Sharp Turn on Emissions - Cars: With electric vehicles still impractical, hybrids and gasoline engines are showing unexpected promise, LA Times, September 15 2002: The battery car never lived up to expectations because conventional lead-acid batteries don't produce enough power to make electric cars perform like vehicles with gasoline engines. More advanced batteries that improve performance still cost too much. The battery electric car is not going to be viable any time soon. It is dead on arrival, said Greg Dana, vice president of environmental affairs for the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which represents 12 of the world's biggest automakers. The full-size electric vehicles are not appealing to the public. They are not full-function, said Reg Modlin, director of environmental and energy planning for DaimlerChrysler. It wasn't the right way to start the program. It also says this: Toyota Motor Corp. plans to produce 300,000 [hybrids] worldwide in two years, while the Big Three auto makers have plans for hybrid vehicles beginning in 2004. What keeps on cropping up is this: The low cost of petrol in the U.S. has discouraged efforts to cut fuel consumption and led GM to scrap its most efficient U.S. gasoline models, the Chevrolet Metro and Chevrolet Prizm. http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/17890/story.htm As fuel in the United States is much cheaper than in Europe, U.S. consumers feel little pressure to switch to HEVs, although the situation might change if fuel costs soared, delegates said. Many American consumers don't feel obliged to economise on fuel as it is so cheap, Miller said. [Ted Miller, a Dearborn, Michigan-based executive with Ford Motor Co, also a senior official of the U.S. advanced battery consortium (USABC)] http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/17738/story.htm Or at least they think it's cheap - never mind hidden costs like the $378 billion or whatever Defence (LOL!) Budget (LOL!). The White House (aka Exxon-Mobil) is quite happy with that, of course. We don't get any government support for either hybrid or natural-gas-only vehicles. Essentially, our current government has said that global warming isn't a problem, fuel economy isn't a problem. They have voted down any participation in the worldwide effort to reduce global warming and voted down any increase in the fuel-economy standards. I suspect that they think-and they may be right-that they are expressing the will of the American people in these things. Then again, they may be wrong. I hope they are wrong. But Americans like big cars. I guess it's the mentality that really goes for monster trucks and things of that nature. Consumption of fuel still seems to be something to be admired. - Michael Seal, director of the Vehicle Research Institute at Western Washington University in Bellingham, Wash., in The Future of Fuel-Efficient Cars, NEWSWEEK, April 5 2002. That was quite an interesting Newsweek series, no longer at their site. EVWorld cross-reffed three of the eight articles at the time, but those links are dead. I'll post this one on the VRI. There is nothing about a hybrid which precludes the use of a fuel cell in place of an internal combustion engine. I'm guessing that we might see such a thing if a durable good fuel cell powered by a conventional liquid fuel as developed. I'm skeptical of the success of hydrogen. From the LA Times article: Toyota announced in July that it plans to market 20 fuel-cell / hybrid vehicles by the end of this year. See also: http://www.toyota.com/html/about/environment/partner_tech/fuelcell_hyb rid.html#fchv-bus1 Toyota's Fuel Cell Hybrid Vehicles (FCHV) Not quite the hybrids we're thinking of though. So Japan leaps ahead with hybrids and fuel cells, Europe leaps ahead with clean diesels, and the US goes right on guzzling. Best Keith MM On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 16:41:16 -, you
[biofuel] The Future of Fuel-Efficient Cars / The Thirst for Oil
The Future of Fuel-Efficient Cars Designers have built cars that can run on everything from soybean oil to solar power. So why aren't we driving them? NEWSWEEK WEB EXCLUSIVE April 5 - Since 1972, more than 30 fuel-efficient, experimental-and often award-winning-vehicles have been designed and built by the students and faculty at the Vehicle Research Institute at Western Washington University in Bellingham, Wash. Funded by $7 million in grants from the federal government, industry and private individuals, the models range from a propane-fueled minivan to a lightweight, streamlined gas-powered model able to get a whopping 118 miles-per-gallon on the highway. FOR AT LEAST A DECADE, the new models have run on alternative fuels ranging from solar power to a thermophotovoltaic generator (basically, an engine powered by burning methane to simulate solar energy). NEWSWEEK's Jennifer Barrett spoke to VRI's director Michael Seal about the feasibility of using alternative fuels from soybean oil to solar power, and which-if any-is most likely to replace gasoline in our cars in the future. NEWSWEEK: Tell me about the latest car designed at the Vehicle Research Institute? How is it powered? Michael Seal is founder and director of the Vehicle Research Institute Michael Seal: It's a hybrid vehicle, powered with natural gas on the engine side and an electric drive on the other. It's a little different than those currently on the market. It is a four-wheel drive. The front wheels drive electrically with 100-horsepower electric motor and the rear wheels drive with a 100-horsepower natural-gas engine. But it's a full-sized, four-door vehicle, and our goal is 50 miles per gallon in the city or on the highway. It's the 32nd vehicle we have built, and we are basing this on what we've learned from building other vehicles in the past, so it is not just a pie-in-the-sky dream. But we are still working on it. The engine comes from Honda and it already meets super ULEV (ultra-low emission vehicle) standards. Our vehicle is different in another way as well. It rises to the height of a sports utility vehicle, so it has the same ground clearance and the high driving position that people seem to look for. But above 30 miles per hour it drops to car height, so there is the increased stability and general increased drivability. It lowers itself to normal car height. An SUV that drops to regular car height while you're driving? Why? You can drive at the low height at low speed, too, if you wish, but you can't drive it up high over 30mph. There are too many of these high vehicles rolling over, and I can't think of any that have rolled over at less than 30mph. So this is a way of forcing people to have a safer vehicle. Most of the reasons for a sport utility vehicle is to drive it in the snow or off-road. Most of the reasons for a sport utility vehicle is to drive it in the snow or off-road. Most people who drive in the snow or drive off-road at full speed, though, are probably doing something foolish. You've been designing hybrid cars powered by different types of alternative fuels for at least a decade. What kind of interest have you gotten from automakers? On the current project, not much. They all have similar hybrid projects they are doing themselves now. But the current high-performance Subaru uses an engine that was designed here in our labs. We developed the natural-gas systems that became widely used in Canada. And we did do one a few years back that Daimler-Chrysler was interested in. DaimlerChrysler has a hybrid vehicle in the works now-it is just not out yet. Virtually every automaker has a hybrid ready to spring on the market as soon as Toyota and Honda prove there's a market, which they seem to be doing. Unlike electric vehicles, people will buy hybrid vehicles. Beyond better fuel efficiency, why buy a hybrid vehicle-especially if it costs more? There's no loss of range or loss of performance or loss of utility and a bonus is that you get substantially increased fuel economy. Of course, in today's America, fuel economy is just about the last thing most people look at when they buy a new car. However, when one looks at recent events in the Middle East, that might be foolish. I also think that most people, given the opportunity, will spend a couple thousand extra on a new car if it is really doing something to clean up the environment. I think the current national government misreads the American public in its view that no American gives a damn about the environment. I don't think that's true at all. Most Americans do care about the environment, but they are not willing to buy a car with very limited range and a very high price just to do their bit. Except
[biofuel] Re: Food for thought
Hi Motie --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith writes: Anyway, hadn't you guys over there better start thinking about taking your country back? Please??? Great idea, but hard to do when the Democrats haven't got anyone to offer but a bunch of uninspiring wimps who would've been called Republicans back in the good ol' days :-). I think, as usual, it has to get worse before it'll get better.-K No, I meant take it back, not just give it to the other lot. Keith Keith, Some of us are in active pursuit of that goal. It can't be done from the Top down, or effectively from the Grass Roots up. It needs to be a concerted effort on all levels at once. And you are correct in your statement that both major Parties will need to go. Motie Yea verily. Seems to me that it's many of you though, not just some of you, and indeed at many levels, and growing fast - the current cosy little arrangement is just too blatant, and maybe people aren't quite as sheeple-ish as they're supposed to be. Now's the time, eh? Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
Hello Darryl Please pardon the snip, interesting stuff! But I just want to ask... snip (Still working toward my biodiesel-electric hybrid car as cashflow permits.) Are you building it? Best Keith Darryl McMahon 48 Tarquin Crescent, Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8 It's your planet. Voice: (613)784-0655 If you won't look Fax: (613)828-3199 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Supply Demand Was: Hydrogen Fuel Cells Obsolete
Yeah, but without energy centralization, how else are they (corporate) going to create the desired enviroment of I've got it ALL ... you're a heroin-addict that desperately needs it ... now let's discuss the price?? The dealer may have made the mistake of becoming more addicted than the addicts are. Keith Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Try this tack, meanwhile - you're taking the same approach as the top-down, centralist question of How much land will it take to grow 'enough' biofuels... Too much, is the answer they come up, and then they abandon the whole idea as impractical. Wrong question, wrong approach. Have a look in the archives. Start at the other end of the scale, the local-level, micro-niches, decentralised energy supply, small-scale, on-farm and off. Consider (once again!) that 15% and rising of the world's food supply is produced with the use of no land at all, nor any fossil-fuel inputs, and biofuels could (should) be produced via the same approach. No need for saltwater seaweed GMO mega-projects with all the inevitable and unpredictable side-effects and it solves all the wrong problems anyway. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] industrial livestock husbandry
Alan S. Petrillo wrote: Or age it. But then aging meat the old fashioned way is not FDA approved. I've been eating a lot of grass fed, grass finished beef lately, and if I age it properly before I cook it then it's fork tender, and very tasty. I even get to shake the hand of the farmer from whom I buy it. Also, if the animal is not terrified by a long trailer ride, uncouth herding into slaughter pens, etc., it does not release tons of adrenaline into it's system to toughen the meat. Alive and happy one minute, dead the next makes for very tender meat. 90 days in the freezer gives the same aging as the modern method, but the meat keeps it's value for longer, both taste and nutrition wise. Research from one of the Pennsylvania Universities, released by Rodale Press. Bright Blessings, Kim Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] jatropha@india - musings
Hello Ramjee Interesting days, these... Aren't they? Interesting post too, thankyou. NEW DELHI: The Government is mulling investment of over Rs 17,500 crore to undertake a comprehensive programme for extracting oil from Jatropha plantations for blending with diesel. [1] I am also told that the Indian Railways intends to use a 10% mix of Jatropha oil in its diesel rail engines to save about Rs. 300 crores (circa USD 60 million) this year(2003) from its fuel bill. However, I am just wondering whether it needs to be only jatropha all the way. The best technology again - topdown-think. I share your reservations. India is a repository of various agroclimatic zones and there are various trees that can yield VOs to a significant extent. For example, across India, one can find various oilseed bearing trees like: Madhuca indica, Pongamia glabra, Cacophyllum inophyllum, Salvadora oleoides, Actinodaphine hookerii, Schleichera trijuga, Hydnocarpus wightiana, Shorea robusta, Vateria indica, Garcinia indica, Mesua ferrea, Mallotus phillip et al... even the common azadirachta indica (neem) and nicotiana tabacum (tobacco) can be explored. There's probably room for all of those and more, and they'd do better than an imposed jatropha plantation in the local niches where they're best adapted and people know how to deal with them. There's also the question of multi-use, I doubt New Delhi's thought of that, but it's most important. As we see, for instance, with large-scale ethanol plants using grain, which regard the grain oil as a waste product and throw it away. I cross-posted a message on jatropha in India from A.D. Karve a couple of months ago, from the Stoves list at Crest: I have conducted field experiments on both castor and Jatropha. I had already mentioned in a previous E-mail, that Jatropha was tested rather widely in India and was given up because it was not found to be as high yielding as the traditional oil crops in India. I do not know how it behaves in other countries, but under our agroclimatic and edaphic conditions, Jatropha produces much more vegetative matter than fruits. At harvest, one has to search for the occasional fruit hidden behind all the foliage that this plant produces. It is found all over India as a wild plant. India has some 25 uncultivated species of trees that yield non-edible oil. The seed of the wild trees is collected by villagers and sold to merchants attending the weekly village markets, but no farmer would ever think of growing them as a crop, because all of them are lower yielding than the cultivated oil plants such as peanut, soybean, sunflower, safflower, sesame, various mustards and rapes, coconut, etc. Among the seasonal oilseeds, hybrid castor is the highest yielding (2.5 tonnes oil per ha), but it is not an edible oil. The highest yield of edible oil, also about 2.5 tonnes per ha, is obtained from coconut. Oil palm, which yields 6 tonnes of oil per hectare in Malaysia, was tested and given up as low yielding under Indian conditions. Yours A.D.Karve http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=17993list=BIOFUEL On the one hand we can be happy that blended VOs are going to be used - but then, by resorting to 'commercial' monocrops of one oilseed bearing species, the benefits that could accrue over a period of time can only be dubious at best, IMHO! Benefits would no doubt accrue, but to all the wrong people, with high costs to the rest. It's possible to do anything badly. If you throw in the NGOs brigade (who revel in sailing along *any* funding_wind [2]) and the forest department (whose idea of 'social' forestry so far is to plant eucalyptus trees all over India) - I don't know what the outcome is going to be. That bad? They know there are better ways of doing things, don't they? Did they learn nothing from the Chipko movement etc? And as for calling SVOs and Blended VOs as 'biodiesel' by the media - please don't get me started on *that*! ;-) Oh no, not again! Same as Southeast Asia with their VO-petrodiesel biodiesel that was breaking people's cars. :-( Nice rant Ramjee. I read it quickly and copied it to give it a more thorough read, but I certainly agree with its drift. A significant number of would be and current beneficiaries are willing to change their foci only to enable them to get fundi ng, even though apparently, the born-again-NGOs would not have *any* expertise on the 'changed focus areas.' This is a manifestation of a typical tendency to work for one's paymasters. And not only that, raising funds becomes an end it itself - and *not* a mere means to a paramount objective. That's so true! I think it's much more widespread than just India and foreign funding, even than development issues, it's almost a general malaise. Science funding is probably worse. It works both ways, funders also have a distorting effect. We haven't accepted any backing or funding for Journey to Forever yet, and that's exactly why.
[biofuel] Biodiesel Bulletin
BIODIESEL BULLETIN A Monthly Newsletter of the National Biodiesel Board January 2, 2003 HEADLINES: ARLINGTON COUNTY VEHICLES SWITCH TO BIODIESEL STUDY FINDS ILLINOIS TAX INCENTIVE WOULD HAVE POSITIVE ECONOMIC IMPACT WASHINGTON UPDATE BIODIESEL FACILITY BEGINS PRODUCTION IN RALSTON, IOWA SPECIAL ALERT ö DONâT DELAY! REGISTER NOW FOR THE BIODIESEL RESEARCH AND BRAINSTORMING WORKSHOP ARLINGTON COUNTY VEHICLES SWITCH TO BIODIESEL Predictions that the D.C. area will significantly exceed vehicle exhaust limits have made Arlington County a role model for the metro area, thanks to its efforts to reduce pollution by switching to cleaner burning biodiesel in its 500 diesel-powered vehicles. Arlington County is home to the Pentagon and numerous office complexes and has approximately 190,000 residents. It recently became the first county in the Washington region and the first county in Virginia to begin using domestically produced biodiesel in vehicles ranging from school buses to fire trucks to garbage trucks. ãWe started using B20 in all our diesel-powered vehicles because we saw an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone: clean the air and use a renewable fuel,ä said Ric Hiller, Chief of the Equipment Division for Arlington, County. ãWeâre very pleased with biodiesel so far.ä A recent analysis by transportation planners at the Metropolitan Washington Council of Governments found that the Washington region is expected to exceed limits on exhaust by 30 percent due in large part to an increase in sport-utility vehicles, pickups and diesel trucks. STUDY FINDS ILLINOIS TAX INCENTIVE WOULD HAVE POSITIVE ECONOMIC IMPACT A recently released study commissioned by the Illinois Soybean Association (ISA) finds that a state tax incentive for biodiesel would have a positive impact on Illinois soybean producers and taxpayers alike, as well as help boost the stateâs economy. Economist John Urbanchuk, director of LECG economic consulting services firm, conducted the study. The study predicts that national demand for biodiesel will increase to more than 500 million gallons by 2012 as the nationâs highway motor fuel supply incorporates renewable fuels. Thatâs 2.4 billion gallons of biodiesel over the next decade. Since Illinois presently accounts for about four percent of all diesel fuel consumed in the U.S., Urbanchuk says consumption of biodiesel in Illinois is expected to increase from less than two million gallons in 2003 to nearly 20 million gallons by 2012. Illinois is also expected to produce more than 520 million gallons of biodiesel over the next decade, which will require 372 million bushels of soybeans. ãIllinois is one of the nationâs largest soybean producers with the second largest soybean crushing and fats and oils refining industries,ä Urbanchuk said. ãTaken together, Illinois accounts for about 20 percent of U.S. soybean production and processing. The partial exemption from sales and use tax will improve the competitive position of Illinois soybean processors compared to surrounding states, and will assure that Illinois will at least maintain and likely increase its share of the business.ä A tax incentive bill entitled ãUse OCC Tax-Ethanol Credits Bill,ä or HB 46, will be introduced by state representative Julie Curry from Decatur in January. Specifically, the bill would extend the current ethanol tax incentive through 2013, and open the incentive to alternative fuels such as biodiesel. The sales and use tax of 6.25 percent would be reduced by 25 percent during 2003-2007 and by 20 percent during 2008-2012 on biodiesel blends of up to 10 percent. Biodiesel and ethanol with more than 10 percent biomass origin would be exempt from the tax. For more information on the bill or the studyâs findings, visit the ISA Web site at www.ilsoy.org and click on ãwhatâs new.ä WASHINGTON UPDATE December brought even more changes to the Congressional leadership in Washington. Incoming Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott (R-MS) resigned his leadership position mid-month and Senator Bill Frist (R-TN) was soon elected to fill the role. Senator Fristâs rise to power has been swift and he is still largely unknown outside of Washington and his home state of Tennessee. He has served on the Budget Committee, the Foreign Relations Committee and the Health, Education, Labor Pensions Committee. State agriculture groups have a good working relationship with him and expect he will be supportive of most biodiesel and ethanol initiatives. Newly elected Governor of Alaska and former Senator Frank Murkowski has appointed his daughter to fill his seat in the Senate. Lisa Murkowski will fill the remaining two years in her fatherâs term. She is expected to resume fatherâs fight for drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and to focus on other energy issues. The 108th Congress will be sworn in on January 7. Budget issues will dominate early activities. BIODIESEL FACILITY BEGINS PRODUCTION IN RALSTON,
Re: [evworld] Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
I think that the success of Hydrogen, either via ICE or Fuel Cell will entirely depend on public acceptance. The CNG technology has been out for quite some time for home an puplic infructure use and it's acceptance is marginal as far as alternative fuels go, mostly in fleets at best. What will change the common idea that gaseous fuel is better than liquid fuel, when people are somewhat suspect of gaseous fuels (especially Hydrogen, remember the Hindenburg...)? I don't think there is enough push for any gasious fuels to make a large dent in the liquid fuels stranglehold. I think that a pure EV solution has a better chance than any gaseous fuel due to the public acceptance of plugging household appliances in on a routine basis. Not often to I have to filler up or plug in my NG stove, dryer, water heater. Those things are seen as more a 'have a professional install it once and let it go' type of technology. Electricity is ubiqiteous. Liquid fuels are also. Sometimes I do have to fill up the BBQ propane tank, but that is every 3 months or so, so my experience is not weekly. It's more about commonality and habit. James Slayden On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, murdoch wrote: I'm a little confused. I thought that GM has announced having to turn to Toyota for hybrid technology to bring these hybrids out. But in this USA Today presentation, no mention seems to be made of that, and at the end GM comes off as some sort of supposed innovator in the field. The concept of grid-chargeable hybrids isn't mentioned but I think it is on the minds of many activists. Once a hybrid owner has the chance to drive on Electricity alone, he or she might well be interested in a pure EV. At the least it allows petroleum-free operation. At present none are offered to the public nor talked-about by the major makers. There is nothing about a hybrid which precludes the use of a fuel cell in place of an internal combustion engine. I'm guessing that we might see such a thing if a durable good fuel cell powered by a conventional liquid fuel as developed. I'm skeptical of the success of hydrogen. MM On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 16:41:16 -, you wrote: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-12-29-hybrid_x.htm Now we need to equip those hybrids as Flexible Fuel Vehicles that can burn either gasoline or ethanol, or any combination of the two fuels. http://www.ccities.doe.gov/vbg/consumers/e85.shtml Then we need a genome project to produce a saltwater seaweed with a high cellulose content, that can be used to produce unlimited supplies of ethanol, as in my essay entitled Benthic Energy, near the bottom of my Starship Generations website. http://geocities.com/womplex_oo1/StarshipGenerations.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Biodiesel-electric hybrid (was [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells)
Hi Keith Yes, I am building the car, well, more accurately gutting and converting a previous ICE machine. (1973 Porsche 914 chosen because it is small, light and relatively simple mechanically and most parts are still available after-market). The electric motor is installed. Battery compartment is designed, and batteries selected but not purchased. Motor controller selected, but not purchased. Grid- connection charger purchased, but not yet received. The electrics come easily to me - I currently drive an all-electric Fiero conversion, and also have an electric tractor, boat and motorcycle, and another EV project on the go besides the hybrid. On the ICE side, I want to wait to see how much power is consumed at highway cruising speed, then purchase an air-cooled diesel generator to match the requirement. The 914 is originally an air-cooled system, so if I want to utilize the heat, air-cooled makes more sense. Also less weight and plumbing issues. Current estimates suggest 8-10 kW should do it. 120 volts AC RMS at 80 amps across a bridge rectifier and a ripple capacitor should be a reasonable match for the 144 volt main traction pack. The engine will have to have electric (remote) start capability and switch-off ability. The diesel will not be part of the drive train - just a means of supplying electric power to the battery bank. It is also not intended to be the primary charger. In normal urban driving, the generator should not be required - grid charging should be sufficient. The car is currently in a body shop to bring the body back up to good condition and painting. Once I have it back, I should be able to start working on the wiring harnesses and instrumentation. While I have been interested in biodiesel for a few years, this vehicle has become my real impetus for starting up my own brewing, as there is no local supply, but plenty of WVO about. I used to sit on a citizen's committee for the municipal landfill, so methods of diverting waste from landfill and into reuse and recycling opportunities is also near to my heart. I hope to have my 1-liter test production line up and running by the end of the month. Scaling up comes after that, hopefully by summertime. Darryl McMahon 48 Tarquin Crescent, Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8 It's your planet. Voice: (613)784-0655 If you won't look Fax: (613)828-3199 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] The Future of Fuel-Efficient Cars / The Thirst for Oil
Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] provided: NEWSWEEK WEB EXCLUSIVE snip Canada has a lot of natural-gas vehicles because they have a refueling network. But it took the Canadian government buying a fuel company, Petrocan, which sells natural gas at its outlets. Otherwise, it wouldn't have happened there.
Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
Is Corbin actually selling Sparrows anymore? I thought they were moving into their Merlin line completely (ie. ICE engine). James Slayden On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Darryl McMahon wrote: murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The concept of grid-chargeable hybrids isn't mentioned but I think it is on the minds of many activists. Once a hybrid owner has the chance to drive on Electricity alone, he or she might well be interested in a pure EV. At the least it allows petroleum-free operation. At present none are offered to the public nor talked-about by the major makers. Precisely why the major automakers are not allowing drivers to experience true electrics. I maintain a list of many of the electric vehicles on the road in North America (http://www.econogics.com/ev/evwhere.htm). One trend I am noticing is that people that have had their OEM EVs (eg Honda EV+, GM EV-1) taken back (lease up, no offer to renew or extend) are purchasing Corbin Sparrows. Quite a step down on the price curve, and a single-seater, but still electric. There is nothing about a hybrid which precludes the use of a fuel cell in place of an internal combustion engine. I'm guessing that we might see such a thing if a durable good fuel cell powered by a conventional liquid fuel as developed. I'm skeptical of the success of hydrogen. Actually, hybrids as offered today from Toyota and Honda, and proposed by Daimler- Chrysler are really electric-assist gasoline burners. They do not have an electric motor large enough to sustain extended accelerations or acceleration at highway speeds. To build a car where the ICE could be replaced by a fuel cell would require an all-electric drive train, which is not being provided by the automakers yet. In the case of a series hybrid (where the ICE just charges the batteries, but does not power the drive train directly), then I would agree with your statement. Personally, I'm skeptical of fuel cells for mobile use altogether. Hydrogen just presents more handling, storage and production issues than current liquid fuels. Diesels today can already achieve the efficiencies the fuel cell guys are still shooting for. Clearly, biodiesel should be the fuel of choice in those diesel engines. (Still working toward my biodiesel-electric hybrid car as cashflow permits.) Darryl McMahon 48 Tarquin Crescent, Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8 It's your planet. Voice: (613)784-0655 If you won't look Fax: (613)828-3199 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] jatropha@india - musings
Hi Keith, There was an interesting quip in your post that I found interesting and had a question on. On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Keith Addison wrote: There's probably room for all of those and more, and they'd do better than an imposed jatropha plantation in the local niches where they're best adapted and people know how to deal with them. There's also the question of multi-use, I doubt New Delhi's thought of that, but it's most important. As we see, for instance, with large-scale ethanol plants using grain, which regard the grain oil as a waste product and throw it away. Huh? Ethanol production using grain throws away oil? I have never heard of this. Please explain or provide links. Thanks again. Best wishes Keith Thanks, James Slayden Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Muscle Power
This is somthing that I have been interested in for some time now, and have been looking for more info, as to how to set things up ( like how to build a tread mill, or a cage wheel ). Greg H. - Original Message - From: MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 12:54 Subject: [biofuel] Muscle Power [Received this in the mail thought it interesting for the average person or engineers] When the oil runs low, there's always Muscle Power. The March 2002 Issue of Natural History had an article based on the book Prime Mover: A Natural History of Muscle by Steven Vogel. This is a brief review of the article (and book): About 4000 years ago, in the Middle East or India, people discovered animals could do many chores by turning wheels fixed in place. In a time when the only non-muscular sources of energy were wind and water wheels, this was no small matter. The first use of animals was (and still is) lifting water with a bucket chain. There were three major designs used to harness the muscle power of animals and humans: 1) A horizontal bar jutting out from a vertical shaft. A circling animal attached to the bar did the work of bringing water from the well. 2) a human or a domestic animal worked within a huge hollow wheel, like a hamster in an exercise wheel. The motor thus climbed rather than pulled. A greater load on the wheel meant a greater resistance to its being turned, and this meant that the living motor had to climb farther up the inside of the wheel to keep it going. The increasing slope gave the wheel a neatly self-regulating character: the motor's output was automatically matched with the load. 3) The treadmill -- this makes an animal climb a sloped platform. Making these devices work is difficult: The platform has to support the weight of the animal, the impact of it's feet, and be built well and flexibly enough to go around revolving drums. Some uses of muscle-driven engines: - pumping water out of the hulls of wooden ships - Medieval Europe: sawmills, pile drivers, dough-kneading machines, dockside cranes, bellows, and a dog-powered roasting spit - Cage Wheels: building cathedrals - oars for when the wind dies out or in battle situations - In eastern North America, horse-powered teamboats served as ferries across waterways such as New York's Hudson River. They were less expensive than steam, more reliable - 40-horse combines that reaped and threshed wheat - agricultural treadmills that could be connected to various machines to do such chores such as sawing logs or churning butter (the manufacturer of the latter said that dogs, goats, sheep or children could power it). - Prisoners at Bellevue Penitentiary worked at a sustained output of 90 watts. A similar output was demanded of nineteenth-century Australian convicts, who worked up to twelve hours per day; some said they'd rather hang than work their mill. Since only one quarter of the energy in food is useful towards mechanical work, sustaining 90 watts for 10 hours would require 3,000 calories, double the normal intake. Strength and power of muscle tissue vary little from animal to animal, and mammals all have about the same amount of muscle: about 40 percent of body weight. But larger creatures spend relatively less energy on basic body functions, and this increases the fraction of their food that can be appropriated for labor--so forget battalions of wheel-turning rodents... Few if any tractable animals come close to the mechanical versatility of agile humans. Before you go buy an elephant (larger animals being more powerful on the whole), be sure Dumbo won't have to go up any slopes. The larger the animal, the harder it is for them to lift their own mass against gravity. Some more quotes: Muscle does just one task: It makes the chemical fuel that originally came from our food produce force and motion. It does neither more nor less than what we ask of the combustion engines of our cars and airplanes. In power efficiency--how much work it can do for a given amount of fuel--muscle differs little from those combustion engines. In weight efficiency--how much work a given weight of muscle can do in a given time--it compares well with automobile engines but suffers badly when put up against a good jet turbine. Power Output, Engine Watts per Pound --- Muscle90 Early steam pump 50 Electric motor 100 Automobile engine 200 Motorcycle engine 500 Aircraft engine, piston 700 Aircraft engine, turbine 2,500 Today we have machines for making people move in place: run, walk uphill, push pedals back and forth or up and down, row, ski, or
Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
James Slayden [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked: Is Corbin actually selling Sparrows anymore? I thought they were moving into their Merlin line completely (ie. ICE engine). According to their website at http://www.corbinmotors.com/products_sparrow1.html they are taking orders for 2003 Sparrow 1's. The Sparrow II production line is being constructed. http://www.corbinmotors.com/products_sparrow2.html Somehow, the American motor media seem to have concluded that the introduction of the Merlin Roadster and Merlin Coupe meant Corbin was throwing in the towel on the Sparrow. Reports I have read also give the impression that the Merlins are in production, which they are not. The only vehicle Corbin is actually producing and selling today is the all-electric Sparrow. Darryl McMahon 48 Tarquin Crescent, Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8 It's your planet. Voice: (613)784-0655 If you won't look Fax: (613)828-3199 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [evworld] Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
Success of hydrogen is going to depend on its energy net gain. The current over all 0.25% through electrolyses, has only been improved with platinum as catalyzer. If they find something, it can be improved with 3 to 4 times and be better or as good as gasoline and diesel. Hakan At 08:59 AM 1/3/2003 -0800, you wrote: I think that the success of Hydrogen, either via ICE or Fuel Cell will entirely depend on public acceptance. The CNG technology has been out for quite some time for home an puplic infructure use and it's acceptance is marginal as far as alternative fuels go, mostly in fleets at best. What will change the common idea that gaseous fuel is better than liquid fuel, when people are somewhat suspect of gaseous fuels (especially Hydrogen, remember the Hindenburg...)? I don't think there is enough push for any gasious fuels to make a large dent in the liquid fuels stranglehold. I think that a pure EV solution has a better chance than any gaseous fuel due to the public acceptance of plugging household appliances in on a routine basis. Not often to I have to filler up or plug in my NG stove, dryer, water heater. Those things are seen as more a 'have a professional install it once and let it go' type of technology. Electricity is ubiqiteous. Liquid fuels are also. Sometimes I do have to fill up the BBQ propane tank, but that is every 3 months or so, so my experience is not weekly. It's more about commonality and habit. James Slayden On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, murdoch wrote: I'm a little confused. I thought that GM has announced having to turn to Toyota for hybrid technology to bring these hybrids out. But in this USA Today presentation, no mention seems to be made of that, and at the end GM comes off as some sort of supposed innovator in the field. The concept of grid-chargeable hybrids isn't mentioned but I think it is on the minds of many activists. Once a hybrid owner has the chance to drive on Electricity alone, he or she might well be interested in a pure EV. At the least it allows petroleum-free operation. At present none are offered to the public nor talked-about by the major makers. There is nothing about a hybrid which precludes the use of a fuel cell in place of an internal combustion engine. I'm guessing that we might see such a thing if a durable good fuel cell powered by a conventional liquid fuel as developed. I'm skeptical of the success of hydrogen. MM On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 16:41:16 -, you wrote: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-12-29-hybrid_x.htm Now we need to equip those hybrids as Flexible Fuel Vehicles that can burn either gasoline or ethanol, or any combination of the two fuels. http://www.ccities.doe.gov/vbg/consumers/e85.shtml Then we need a genome project to produce a saltwater seaweed with a high cellulose content, that can be used to produce unlimited supplies of ethanol, as in my essay entitled Benthic Energy, near the bottom of my Starship Generations website. http://geocities.com/womplex_oo1/StarshipGenerations.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [evworld] Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
True. I just didn't put that in cause I was looking at a more acceptance issue. But yes, until there is a net energy GAIN, there won't even be large production, or it will be expensive; both cost and energy wise. James Slayden On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Hakan Falk wrote: Success of hydrogen is going to depend on its energy net gain. The current over all 0.25% through electrolyses, has only been improved with platinum as catalyzer. If they find something, it can be improved with 3 to 4 times and be better or as good as gasoline and diesel. Hakan At 08:59 AM 1/3/2003 -0800, you wrote: I think that the success of Hydrogen, either via ICE or Fuel Cell will entirely depend on public acceptance. The CNG technology has been out for quite some time for home an puplic infructure use and it's acceptance is marginal as far as alternative fuels go, mostly in fleets at best. What will change the common idea that gaseous fuel is better than liquid fuel, when people are somewhat suspect of gaseous fuels (especially Hydrogen, remember the Hindenburg...)? I don't think there is enough push for any gasious fuels to make a large dent in the liquid fuels stranglehold. I think that a pure EV solution has a better chance than any gaseous fuel due to the public acceptance of plugging household appliances in on a routine basis. Not often to I have to filler up or plug in my NG stove, dryer, water heater. Those things are seen as more a 'have a professional install it once and let it go' type of technology. Electricity is ubiqiteous. Liquid fuels are also. Sometimes I do have to fill up the BBQ propane tank, but that is every 3 months or so, so my experience is not weekly. It's more about commonality and habit. James Slayden On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, murdoch wrote: I'm a little confused. I thought that GM has announced having to turn to Toyota for hybrid technology to bring these hybrids out. But in this USA Today presentation, no mention seems to be made of that, and at the end GM comes off as some sort of supposed innovator in the field. The concept of grid-chargeable hybrids isn't mentioned but I think it is on the minds of many activists. Once a hybrid owner has the chance to drive on Electricity alone, he or she might well be interested in a pure EV. At the least it allows petroleum-free operation. At present none are offered to the public nor talked-about by the major makers. There is nothing about a hybrid which precludes the use of a fuel cell in place of an internal combustion engine. I'm guessing that we might see such a thing if a durable good fuel cell powered by a conventional liquid fuel as developed. I'm skeptical of the success of hydrogen. MM On Thu, 02 Jan 2003 16:41:16 -, you wrote: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2002-12-29-hybrid_x.htm Now we need to equip those hybrids as Flexible Fuel Vehicles that can burn either gasoline or ethanol, or any combination of the two fuels. http://www.ccities.doe.gov/vbg/consumers/e85.shtml Then we need a genome project to produce a saltwater seaweed with a high cellulose content, that can be used to produce unlimited supplies of ethanol, as in my essay entitled Benthic Energy, near the bottom of my Starship Generations website. http://geocities.com/womplex_oo1/StarshipGenerations.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of
Re: [evworld] Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
One of the problems (I think) associated with liquid and electric vehicles is when comparing energy derived at a given weight, Lead acid battery___1x Ethanol50x E8580x Gasoline_100x I'm unsure of the source of these figures and question how it was derived but I'd assume it may have converted the energy to Btu/lb or J/kg for comparative purposes only BUT technical studies indicate that ethanol and E85 Internal Combustion Engines can be dedicated to provide equal (or slightly better) fuel economy per given volume (e.g. one litre) as unleaded gasoline. Another comparison would be cost per given unit of energy such as a comparable price for electricity to petrol, for example -- One US gallon of Low-Heating-Value petrol (gasoline) = 115,000 BTUs divide by 3412 BTUs/kW = 33.7 kW times $0.07/kW = $2.359 US dollars for the equivalent residential electrical amount of energy per US gallon of unleaded gasoline. Costs per kW may very. Using the BTU figure from -- Energy Conversion Facts http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html Energy Conversion Calculator http://www.ex.ac.uk/cimt/dictunit/ccenrgy.htm I imagine comparative factors could be used using (Compressed) Natural Gas, LPG, hydrogen, coal, biofuels, wind, hydroelectric, PV, etc. ` Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [evworld] Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
Acutally, if your calculations are correct, electricity doesn't look half bad. :) Even better if TOU net metering with some solar was taken in to account. We also have to take the energy conversion of the vehicle system which EV's come out way ahead of ICE vehicles, no matter what fuel is used. James Slayden On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, MH wrote: One of the problems (I think) associated with liquid and electric vehicles is when comparing energy derived at a given weight, Lead acid battery___1x Ethanol50x E8580x Gasoline_100x I'm unsure of the source of these figures and question how it was derived but I'd assume it may have converted the energy to Btu/lb or J/kg for comparative purposes only BUT technical studies indicate that ethanol and E85 Internal Combustion Engines can be dedicated to provide equal (or slightly better) fuel economy per given volume (e.g. one litre) as unleaded gasoline. Another comparison would be cost per given unit of energy such as a comparable price for electricity to petrol, for example -- One US gallon of Low-Heating-Value petrol (gasoline) = 115,000 BTUs divide by 3412 BTUs/kW = 33.7 kW times $0.07/kW = $2.359 US dollars for the equivalent residential electrical amount of energy per US gallon of unleaded gasoline. Costs per kW may very. Using the BTU figure from -- Energy Conversion Facts http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html Energy Conversion Calculator http://www.ex.ac.uk/cimt/dictunit/ccenrgy.htm I imagine comparative factors could be used using (Compressed) Natural Gas, LPG, hydrogen, coal, biofuels, wind, hydroelectric, PV, etc. ` Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HGTV Dream Home Giveaway Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [evworld] Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
Acutally, if your calculations are correct, electricity doesn't look half bad. :) Even better if TOU net metering with some solar was taken in to account. We also have to take the energy conversion of the vehicle system which EV's come out way ahead of ICE vehicles, no matter what fuel is used. James Slayden Terrific! The figures used for the petrol to electric grid comparison are based on a 'well to pump' or 'mine to electrical outlet' cost factor. It would be helpful to see further results when using 'energy conversion' efficiencies factored in from the 'pump to wheel' or 'electrical plug outlet to wheel' (energy per unit/cost) calculations. Look forward to further explanations and maybe address the weight factor concerning gasoline and the lead acid battery power ratio. It would go a long ways in clarifying doubts expressed about EVs. Thank you. ` Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [evworld] Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
Those numbers are fuel comparisons not drivetrain. To the end user curb weight and range tell it all. Lead Acid needs to be replaced by something more efficient. Skeleton says their new supercap is an order of magnitude better than the current crop of caps. A hybrid using their cap would beat lead acid. Not only charge/discharge losses but weight as well. Diesel or Bourke for prime mover. Maybe some day fuel cells. Kirk -Original Message- From: MH [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 12:44 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [evworld] Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells One of the problems (I think) associated with liquid and electric vehicles is when comparing energy derived at a given weight, Lead acid battery___1x Ethanol50x E8580x Gasoline_100x I'm unsure of the source of these figures and question how it was derived but I'd assume it may have converted the energy to Btu/lb or J/kg for comparative purposes only BUT technical studies indicate that ethanol and E85 Internal Combustion Engines can be dedicated to provide equal (or slightly better) fuel economy per given volume (e.g. one litre) as unleaded gasoline. Another comparison would be cost per given unit of energy such as a comparable price for electricity to petrol, for example -- One US gallon of Low-Heating-Value petrol (gasoline) = 115,000 BTUs divide by 3412 BTUs/kW = 33.7 kW times $0.07/kW = $2.359 US dollars for the equivalent residential electrical amount of energy per US gallon of unleaded gasoline. Costs per kW may very. Using the BTU figure from -- Energy Conversion Facts http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html Energy Conversion Calculator http://www.ex.ac.uk/cimt/dictunit/ccenrgy.htm I imagine comparative factors could be used using (Compressed) Natural Gas, LPG, hydrogen, coal, biofuels, wind, hydroelectric, PV, etc. ` Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.435 / Virus Database: 244 - Release Date: 12/30/2002 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Food for thought Was: Fish Farms Become FeedlotsoftheSea 12-28-02
You guys need to read The New Thought Police by Tammy Bruce. You guys ain't seen nothing yet! Jonathan Fairbanks East Tawas, MI --- csakima [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I feel the same way about this social pressure. Almost as if it's (the pressure) being used as (quite an effective) substitute for the secret police used to keep the dissenters quiet. Who needs the secret police ... when Aunt Meg, Uncle Fred and Cousin Jim will just as effectively do the job for free?? Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's sad, really, that in a country of supposedly free people, I find an inordinate amount of social pressure to keep silent about my dissent. The fact that I don't is, in my view, the mark of an individual raised in a free country. There seem to be very few people questioning the American political leadership these days. That seems a dangerous thing. . . Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
Actually it was the reports of Sparrow I owners that had indicated that and Corbin's lack of any visable support. :) So I called Tom Corbin directly today and here is what the skivey is: They have ~70-72 Sparrow I's that are being changed over to the AC system. About 22 are already paid for by customers, 20 are slated for dealers, and the rest are for the factory for direct purchase. The Sparrow II's will be in production within the next 6 to 8 months and available for purchase at that time. They are expecting a 200,000 unit a year production of the Sparrow II's. Tom also indicated that they might eventually be going to a front wheel drive system on the Sparrow II's. He also indicated some possible battery enhancements. Well, that is a big change from the things I heard, so I am glad to see things moving forward. I visited the factory in Aug. 2001 in hopes of purchasing one, but was going to wait for the Sparrow II's due to more legroom. James Slayden On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Darryl McMahon wrote: James Slayden [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked: Is Corbin actually selling Sparrows anymore? I thought they were moving into their Merlin line completely (ie. ICE engine). According to their website at http://www.corbinmotors.com/products_sparrow1.html they are taking orders for 2003 Sparrow 1's. The Sparrow II production line is being constructed. http://www.corbinmotors.com/products_sparrow2.html Somehow, the American motor media seem to have concluded that the introduction of the Merlin Roadster and Merlin Coupe meant Corbin was throwing in the towel on the Sparrow. Reports I have read also give the impression that the Merlins are in production, which they are not. The only vehicle Corbin is actually producing and selling today is the all-electric Sparrow. Darryl McMahon 48 Tarquin Crescent, Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8 It's your planet. Voice: (613)784-0655 If you won't look Fax: (613)828-3199 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Biodiesel-electric hybrid (was [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells)
Hi Darryl, Are you using a VoltsPorsche kit? I was wondering how those work out. James Slayden On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Darryl McMahon wrote: Hi Keith Yes, I am building the car, well, more accurately gutting and converting a previous ICE machine. (1973 Porsche 914 chosen because it is small, light and relatively simple mechanically and most parts are still available after-market). The electric motor is installed. Battery compartment is designed, and batteries selected but not purchased. Motor controller selected, but not purchased. Grid- connection charger purchased, but not yet received. The electrics come easily to me - I currently drive an all-electric Fiero conversion, and also have an electric tractor, boat and motorcycle, and another EV project on the go besides the hybrid. On the ICE side, I want to wait to see how much power is consumed at highway cruising speed, then purchase an air-cooled diesel generator to match the requirement. The 914 is originally an air-cooled system, so if I want to utilize the heat, air-cooled makes more sense. Also less weight and plumbing issues. Current estimates suggest 8-10 kW should do it. 120 volts AC RMS at 80 amps across a bridge rectifier and a ripple capacitor should be a reasonable match for the 144 volt main traction pack. The engine will have to have electric (remote) start capability and switch-off ability. The diesel will not be part of the drive train - just a means of supplying electric power to the battery bank. It is also not intended to be the primary charger. In normal urban driving, the generator should not be required - grid charging should be sufficient. The car is currently in a body shop to bring the body back up to good condition and painting. Once I have it back, I should be able to start working on the wiring harnesses and instrumentation. While I have been interested in biodiesel for a few years, this vehicle has become my real impetus for starting up my own brewing, as there is no local supply, but plenty of WVO about. I used to sit on a citizen's committee for the municipal landfill, so methods of diverting waste from landfill and into reuse and recycling opportunities is also near to my heart. I hope to have my 1-liter test production line up and running by the end of the month. Scaling up comes after that, hopefully by summertime. Darryl McMahon 48 Tarquin Crescent, Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8 It's your planet. Voice: (613)784-0655 If you won't look Fax: (613)828-3199 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT HGTV Dream Home Giveaway Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [evworld] Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
Kirk, U got a link for that? On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, kirk wrote: Those numbers are fuel comparisons not drivetrain. To the end user curb weight and range tell it all. Lead Acid needs to be replaced by something more efficient. Skeleton says their new supercap is an order of magnitude better than the current crop of caps. A hybrid using their cap would beat lead acid. Not only charge/discharge losses but weight as well. Diesel or Bourke for prime mover. Maybe some day fuel cells. Kirk -Original Message- From: MH [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 12:44 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [evworld] Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells One of the problems (I think) associated with liquid and electric vehicles is when comparing energy derived at a given weight, Lead acid battery___1x Ethanol50x E8580x Gasoline_100x I'm unsure of the source of these figures and question how it was derived but I'd assume it may have converted the energy to Btu/lb or J/kg for comparative purposes only BUT technical studies indicate that ethanol and E85 Internal Combustion Engines can be dedicated to provide equal (or slightly better) fuel economy per given volume (e.g. one litre) as unleaded gasoline. Another comparison would be cost per given unit of energy such as a comparable price for electricity to petrol, for example -- One US gallon of Low-Heating-Value petrol (gasoline) = 115,000 BTUs divide by 3412 BTUs/kW = 33.7 kW times $0.07/kW = $2.359 US dollars for the equivalent residential electrical amount of energy per US gallon of unleaded gasoline. Costs per kW may very. Using the BTU figure from -- Energy Conversion Facts http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html Energy Conversion Calculator http://www.ex.ac.uk/cimt/dictunit/ccenrgy.htm I imagine comparative factors could be used using (Compressed) Natural Gas, LPG, hydrogen, coal, biofuels, wind, hydroelectric, PV, etc. ` Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.435 / Virus Database: 244 - Release Date: 12/30/2002 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] The Future of Fuel-Efficient Cars / The Thirst for Oil
Darryl McMahon wrote: Their solution - at-home refueliing for those with a NG connection. This involves installing a compressor (Fuelmaker is one brand) connected to a 220 volt outlet and a 2 psi natural gas line. These used to be available only by lease, but they can be purchased now. A reconditioned unit will run about $3 500 here in B.C. Most of the natural-gas vehicles are actually dual-fuel gasoline / natural gas vehicles, and many of these run NG seldom or never for lack of infrastructure. (Oh, and last I heard, the waiting list for these dual-fuellers from Ford Canada is over a year). The natural gas vehicles I've seen around here are primarily in fleets. Interest in NG as a transport fuel is diminishing rapidly in Canada for two main reasons. 1) since conversions have been banned since 1999, there is a definite shortage of the vehicles available to purchase. WHAT??? I can get a conversion any time I like, if I can afford it! 2) as NG becomes more popular for home heating and electrical generation, its price is rising, making it economically less attractive. The price rises and falls, just like any other commodity. We're paying about half the price consumers had to pay two winters ago. Once we start dropping bombs in Iraq in earnest, that price will likely rise again . . . I think the problem relates to the price of conversions, which has increased considerably, and the small price difference between gasoline and natural gas. Right now, gasoline is selling for 59 cents per liter. The equivalent energy in natural gas sells for about 45 cents per liter. A consumer investing in a conversion would have to buy a LOT of fuel in order for the system to pay itself back. If the pay back time exceeds the expected ownership period of the vehicle, then it makes no economic sense to convert. That is, I believe, why conversions are becoming rare. Double ARRGGHH!! This guy is a senior employee in a vehicle research facility? Boston is a tropical paradise compared to Ottawa, where I drive an electric car all winter. Range reduction is in the order of 10%, not 80%, and that is primarily due to plowing through slush and snow (increased road drag) and using power for cabin heating. It is a simple matter to keep the batteries warm to retain their energy storage capacity. And it is an issue specific to lead-acid batteries - advanced battery technologies do not have the same temperature-energy storage dependency. Typical gas-head attitude - I have seen it for years in the Canadian government transport research community. The much higher efficiency and zero-emissions attributes are irrelevant, I need to have 400 miles worth of range in the tank because I drive 40 miles a day. Ridiculous, isn't it? I've moved much further away from work, but very seldom do I travel more than 100 kilometers in a single day! However, driving that far in an EV will strain the batteries. The replacement cost of a battery bank is nearly that of gasoline that would have been consumed during the same period of time. (An EV owner in Langley discussed this issue with me at length.) The EV conversion simply doesn't pay for itself if we have to be replacing entire battery banks every few years, hence, people are reluctant to invest in them. A short lived advantage as NG use increases world-wide. All the other alternatives including electricity and hydrogen no doubt. Yep, definite shortage of hydrogen on the planet. (I'm not a fan of hydrogen fuel, but that doesn't mean there is a shortage of it.) Sorry to hear about the end of sunlight falling on the planet and the winds all dying as potential sources of electrical generation. Hydrogen makes less and less sense to me, and I've LONG been a hydrogen enthusiast! Perhaps, one day, we'll figure all of this out. It seems to me that the best solution involves hybrid diesel electric power trains running on SVO. But, we have to reduce the mass of our vehicles first. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Biodiesel-electric hybrid (was [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells)
Hi Darryl Very nice! And good for you! Several people have talked along these lines here since this list started three years ago, and some said they were doing it, but we never heard much detail, nor the end of the story: Hey! It works! Please keep us updated, and if you have technical problems or issues you'd like to discuss, I'd guess there are a lot of folks here who'd enjoy getting their teeth into it. Thanks for telling us about it. Best wishes Keith Hi Keith Yes, I am building the car, well, more accurately gutting and converting a previous ICE machine. (1973 Porsche 914 chosen because it is small, light and relatively simple mechanically and most parts are still available after-market). The electric motor is installed. Battery compartment is designed, and batteries selected but not purchased. Motor controller selected, but not purchased. Grid- connection charger purchased, but not yet received. The electrics come easily to me - I currently drive an all-electric Fiero conversion, and also have an electric tractor, boat and motorcycle, and another EV project on the go besides the hybrid. On the ICE side, I want to wait to see how much power is consumed at highway cruising speed, then purchase an air-cooled diesel generator to match the requirement. The 914 is originally an air-cooled system, so if I want to utilize the heat, air-cooled makes more sense. Also less weight and plumbing issues. Current estimates suggest 8-10 kW should do it. 120 volts AC RMS at 80 amps across a bridge rectifier and a ripple capacitor should be a reasonable match for the 144 volt main traction pack. The engine will have to have electric (remote) start capability and switch-off ability. The diesel will not be part of the drive train - just a means of supplying electric power to the battery bank. It is also not intended to be the primary charger. In normal urban driving, the generator should not be required - grid charging should be sufficient. The car is currently in a body shop to bring the body back up to good condition and painting. Once I have it back, I should be able to start working on the wiring harnesses and instrumentation. While I have been interested in biodiesel for a few years, this vehicle has become my real impetus for starting up my own brewing, as there is no local supply, but plenty of WVO about. I used to sit on a citizen's committee for the municipal landfill, so methods of diverting waste from landfill and into reuse and recycling opportunities is also near to my heart. I hope to have my 1-liter test production line up and running by the end of the month. Scaling up comes after that, hopefully by summertime. Darryl McMahon 48 Tarquin Crescent, Econogics, Inc. Nepean, Ontario K2H 8J8 It's your planet. Voice: (613)784-0655 If you won't look Fax: (613)828-3199 after it, who will?http://www.econogics.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
Personally, I'm skeptical of fuel cells for mobile use altogether. Hydrogen just presents more handling, storage and production issues than current liquid fuels. I think you and I are on the same page on several of the issues you mention. On the Hydrogen issue I'll reitterate that I don't equate that with the question of whether fuel cells are viable, because Hydrogen is not the only potential fuel cell fuel. I think a fuel cell can be installed in a vehicle that can run off a compromise fuel, such as methanol, or where a reformer can be installed to get hydrogen from the methanol. In that case, the storage and production issues are somewaht altered. From the article I read in evworld.com as to a Daimler Benz lengthy methanol fuel cell trip, for example, the car sounded manageable. Not ideal, but I didn't dismiss it out of hand as non-viable for public use or something. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
I'll crosspost to the evworld.com group from this biofuel group because I think the folks there may find your summary views interesting. Last things first: From the LA Times article: Toyota announced in July that it plans to market 20 fuel-cell / hybrid vehicles by the end of this year. See also: http://www.toyota.com/html/about/environment/partner_tech/fuelcell_hyb rid.html#fchv-bus1 Toyota's Fuel Cell Hybrid Vehicles (FCHV) Not quite the hybrids we're thinking of though. So Japan leaps ahead with hybrids and fuel cells, Europe leaps ahead with clean diesels, and the US goes right on guzzling. I don't know for certain, but I think the fuel cell vehicles proposed by Toyota, Honda, et. al. are not the sort of thing you're going to be able to walk down the street and buy. More like very first-gen vehicles. What I keep thinking though is that even if some of the claimed supporters of fuel cells don't really mean it, even if they just want to delay progress while they drag along making cars in the standard old slowly evolving way, and even if they've chosen to advocate fuel cells because there is good reason to be skeptical of the *pace* of progress we can reasonably expect, some of the more innovative companies may actually break the expectations of those supporters and actually come out with fuel cell vehicles. Honda and Toyota's early efforts are, in this theory, an example of that. MM On Fri, 3 Jan 2003 19:25:27 +0900, you wrote: Hi MM I'm a little confused. I thought that GM has announced having to turn to Toyota for hybrid technology to bring these hybrids out. But in this USA Today presentation, no mention seems to be made of that, and at the end GM comes off as some sort of supposed innovator in the field. Yes, while Toyota follows in front. The concept of grid-chargeable hybrids isn't mentioned but I think it is on the minds of many activists. Once a hybrid owner has the chance to drive on Electricity alone, he or she might well be interested in a pure EV. At the least it allows petroleum-free operation. At present none are offered to the public nor talked-about by the major makers. Didn't you enjoy the authoritative quote by Anne Hanson, an Ann Arbor, Mich., marketing consultant and former marketing chief with Ford's electric vehicle program? Did the former chief of the Edsel marketing program get to make authoritative statements afterwards? Or was he out selling Tupperware? Or am I reading it all wrong? This is from State Takes Sharp Turn on Emissions - Cars: With electric vehicles still impractical, hybrids and gasoline engines are showing unexpected promise, LA Times, September 15 2002: The battery car never lived up to expectations because conventional lead-acid batteries don't produce enough power to make electric cars perform like vehicles with gasoline engines. More advanced batteries that improve performance still cost too much. The battery electric car is not going to be viable any time soon. It is dead on arrival, said Greg Dana, vice president of environmental affairs for the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which represents 12 of the world's biggest automakers. The full-size electric vehicles are not appealing to the public. They are not full-function, said Reg Modlin, director of environmental and energy planning for DaimlerChrysler. It wasn't the right way to start the program. It also says this: Toyota Motor Corp. plans to produce 300,000 [hybrids] worldwide in two years, while the Big Three auto makers have plans for hybrid vehicles beginning in 2004. What keeps on cropping up is this: The low cost of petrol in the U.S. has discouraged efforts to cut fuel consumption and led GM to scrap its most efficient U.S. gasoline models, the Chevrolet Metro and Chevrolet Prizm. http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/17890/story.htm As fuel in the United States is much cheaper than in Europe, U.S. consumers feel little pressure to switch to HEVs, although the situation might change if fuel costs soared, delegates said. Many American consumers don't feel obliged to economise on fuel as it is so cheap, Miller said. [Ted Miller, a Dearborn, Michigan-based executive with Ford Motor Co, also a senior official of the U.S. advanced battery consortium (USABC)] http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/17738/story.htm Or at least they think it's cheap - never mind hidden costs like the $378 billion or whatever Defence (LOL!) Budget (LOL!). The White House (aka Exxon-Mobil) is quite happy with that, of course. We don't get any government support for either hybrid or natural-gas-only vehicles. Essentially, our current government has said that global warming isn't a problem, fuel economy isn't a problem. They have voted down any participation in the worldwide effort to reduce global warming and voted down any increase in the fuel-economy standards. I suspect that they think-and they may be right-that they are
[biofuel] oil @ $33 per barrel
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/dowjones/20030103/bs_dowjones/200301031651000359 Nothing special in this article, just linking it for the price-reference. It is interesting to see Venezuela exacerbating the situation (as though a gulf war wouldn't already drive prices up). Not mentioned is the issue of the Strategic Reserve. I hope that the price of oil goes up because the sooner we see some of the reality of our importation needs, the better. But, on the issue of the reserve, my recollection is I read an article a few weeks ago wondering aloud if President Bush would tap into it if a war came and claiming that arguably an error by his father had been to not go into it soon enough during the previous Gulf War. I hope this President keeps making the same error. In a way it's understandable. I warship or an F-16 can't exactly wage war without some oil. In the long run, it'll be best for the States, I think, to understand the consequences of our oil setup. What's good for Exxon-Mobil is not necessarily the same thing as what's good for citizens of The United States. This article seems to have looked at the reserve question last week: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/nm/20021230/bs_nm/energy_congress_dc_4 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Corn oil - was Re: [biofuel] jatropha@india - musings
Hi James Hi Keith, There was an interesting quip in your post that I found interesting and had a question on. On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Keith Addison wrote: There's probably room for all of those and more, and they'd do better than an imposed jatropha plantation in the local niches where they're best adapted and people know how to deal with them. There's also the question of multi-use, I doubt New Delhi's thought of that, but it's most important. As we see, for instance, with large-scale ethanol plants using grain, which regard the grain oil as a waste product and throw it away. Huh? Ethanol production using grain throws away oil? I have never heard of this. Please explain or provide links. Weren't we discussing it in the thread about aflatoxin attacking the US corn crop? Anyway, have you ever heard of them using the oil? I hadn't, and I'd been wondering about it... Here it is: 1 Bushel of corn = 3.6 gallons of fuel oil. A typical bushel of corn weighs 56 pounds. 1 bushel provides 2.5 gallons of ethanol fuel, 14.4 pounds of feed, 1.6 pounds of corn oil. (Of course it needn't take 3.6 gallons of fuel oil to produce 1 bushel of corn, nor any at all, but it does.) Funny, with all this crap put about by David Pimentel on the alleged energy inefficiency of ethanol from corn (NOT), I've never seen the corn oil brought into the picture. Different lobbies I suppose, ne'er the twain shall meet. Also this: Now there's some discussion with a chemical engineer in Brazil about it. He's working with a factory making ethanol from corn and producing 30 thousand liters per month of non-refined corn oil, stored or used as fertilizer in the sugar-cane crop, of all things. So it seems the corn oil is indeed regarded as a waste product from ethanol production. They haven't even thought of using it for process heat. If they did, and made biodiesel from the excess (looks like there'd be an excess), that would rather change the energy efficiency of the corn distillation and the economics of both operations. I think we'll be hearing more about this soon. We haven't yet, but we will. I still don't know what people like ADM do. What happens to the corn oil? Keith Thanks again. Best wishes Keith Thanks, James Slayden Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Food for thought
You guys need to read The New Thought Police by Tammy Bruce. You guys ain't seen nothing yet! Jonathan Fairbanks East Tawas, MI Uh... The left control the media and are working towards the downfall of America, etc etc, according to Ms Bruce. What a joke. Rupert Murdoch, eg, well-known left-wing pinko running-dog - damn, he's virtually an (AARGGHHH!) Socialist! Or maybe he's just too dumb to notice that his journalists are working against his interests all the time, or he doesn't really mind because he's such a sweet old uncle. Take him out and have him shot, Tammy Bruce, Ann Coulter, Rush Limbaugh et al can pass a hat round to pay for the bullets. Ms Bruce and her book are a bizarre load of hysterical BS. I suppose you believe Ronald Bailey and Steve Milloy too. From Lomborg to Limbaugh, sheesh, it does nothing to raise the tone of the place, mumble mumble... Behind these particular scenes one finds lurking the likes of L. Brent Bozell III and his far-rightwing Media Research Center, Inc., funded to the tune of $15 million a year by right-wing foundations like the Scaife, Bradley, Olin and Donner foundations, various corporations and wealthy Republican donors, all the usual suspects, and Bozell himself gets a quarter-million a year. I guess they get their money's worth. On the MRC advisory boards are well-known bias-free figures such as Elliot Abrams, Mona Charen, Pete DuPont, Rush Limbaugh. The MRC sends e-mail alerts throughout the day to its list of over 11,000 followers who can then rain complaints onto ABC, NBC, CBS and other media that aren't toeing the correct line on Iraq and other issues, along with the constant cant of left-wing media bias. The bothering thing is that people believe it, fact-free foundations regardless. I think *you* need to read Trudy Lieberman's Slanting the Story: the Forces that Shape the News (The New Press, 2000), on the enormous influence right-wing think tanks like The Heritage Foundation, the Cato Institute, the National Center for Policy Analysis etc have over government policy, yet their activities go unscrutinized and underreported. No doubt because of all that left-wing media bias, yes, that must be the reason. Book Excerpt Slanting the Story, Part 1 - Black Holes Of Power http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/4155 Book Excerpt Slanting the Story, Part 2 - Ralph Nader And The Right http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/4156 Book Excerpt Slanting the Story, Part 3 - Courting The Press http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/4192 Book Excerpt Slanting the Story, Part 4 - Clubbing The Press http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/4219 Book Excerpt Slanting the Story, Part 5 - Advancing A Cause: Remaking Medicare http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/4248 Keith --- csakima [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I feel the same way about this social pressure. Almost as if it's (the pressure) being used as (quite an effective) substitute for the secret police used to keep the dissenters quiet. Who needs the secret police ... when Aunt Meg, Uncle Fred and Cousin Jim will just as effectively do the job for free?? Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] It's sad, really, that in a country of supposedly free people, I find an inordinate amount of social pressure to keep silent about my dissent. The fact that I don't is, in my view, the mark of an individual raised in a free country. There seem to be very few people questioning the American political leadership these days. That seems a dangerous thing. . . Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] OT: interesting article on fast food business economics and nutrition
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46261-2002Dec27.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [evworld] Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
http://www.skeleton-technologies.com/supcap6.htm Some pdf you can download there. -Original Message- From: James Slayden [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 6:01 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [evworld] Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells Kirk, U got a link for that? On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, kirk wrote: Those numbers are fuel comparisons not drivetrain. To the end user curb weight and range tell it all. Lead Acid needs to be replaced by something more efficient. Skeleton says their new supercap is an order of magnitude better than the current crop of caps. A hybrid using their cap would beat lead acid. Not only charge/discharge losses but weight as well. Diesel or Bourke for prime mover. Maybe some day fuel cells. Kirk -Original Message- From: MH [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 12:44 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [evworld] Re: [biofuel] GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells One of the problems (I think) associated with liquid and electric vehicles is when comparing energy derived at a given weight, Lead acid battery___1x Ethanol50x E8580x Gasoline_100x I'm unsure of the source of these figures and question how it was derived but I'd assume it may have converted the energy to Btu/lb or J/kg for comparative purposes only BUT technical studies indicate that ethanol and E85 Internal Combustion Engines can be dedicated to provide equal (or slightly better) fuel economy per given volume (e.g. one litre) as unleaded gasoline. Another comparison would be cost per given unit of energy such as a comparable price for electricity to petrol, for example -- One US gallon of Low-Heating-Value petrol (gasoline) = 115,000 BTUs divide by 3412 BTUs/kW = 33.7 kW times $0.07/kW = $2.359 US dollars for the equivalent residential electrical amount of energy per US gallon of unleaded gasoline. Costs per kW may very. Using the BTU figure from -- Energy Conversion Facts http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/energy_conv.html Energy Conversion Calculator http://www.ex.ac.uk/cimt/dictunit/ccenrgy.htm I imagine comparative factors could be used using (Compressed) Natural Gas, LPG, hydrogen, coal, biofuels, wind, hydroelectric, PV, etc. ` Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.435 / Virus Database: 244 - Release Date: 12/30/2002 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.435 / Virus Database: 244 - Release Date: 12/30/2002 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: GM rethinks hydrogen fuel cells
In 10 to 15 years, we will see a lot of fuels cells out there, not the ones that could power a car, but the ones that can power a notebook, a flash light, toys, etc. My best guess will be ethanol or similar. Hydrogen maybe, but I doubt it when you can use methanol directly. The price threshold for this fuel cells are high and the price of fuel not an issue. The small fuel cells for ethanol or multi fuels are a ready for use technology, fuel cells in general not and hydrogen definitely not. We all know the serious problem with pollution from batteries and if fuel cells can reduce that, it will even go faster. It does not mean that the fuel cells themselves couldn't be a problem also, I have not research this, but the reuse in itself will reduce the pollution problem significantly. Hakan At 06:19 PM 1/3/2003 -0800, you wrote: Personally, I'm skeptical of fuel cells for mobile use altogether. Hydrogen just presents more handling, storage and production issues than current liquid fuels. I think you and I are on the same page on several of the issues you mention. On the Hydrogen issue I'll reitterate that I don't equate that with the question of whether fuel cells are viable, because Hydrogen is not the only potential fuel cell fuel. I think a fuel cell can be installed in a vehicle that can run off a compromise fuel, such as methanol, or where a reformer can be installed to get hydrogen from the methanol. In that case, the storage and production issues are somewaht altered. From the article I read in evworld.com as to a Daimler Benz lengthy methanol fuel cell trip, for example, the car sounded manageable. Not ideal, but I didn't dismiss it out of hand as non-viable for public use or something. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Food for thought
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith, Some of us are in active pursuit of that goal. It can't be done from the Top down, or effectively from the Grass Roots up. It needs to be a concerted effort on all levels at once. And you are correct in your statement that both major Parties will need to go. Motie Yea verily. Seems to me that it's many of you though, not just some of you, and indeed at many levels, and growing fast - the current cosy little arrangement is just too blatant, and maybe people aren't quite as sheeple-ish as they're supposed to be. Now's the time, eh? Best Keith Hi Keith, Now is indeed the time! We got one party out of power, and the other one will soon be severely weakened. Partisan Politics must be resisted as strongly as Racism. Let the ideas and positions on the Issues stand or fail on their Merits, not be supported or opposed based on the Party affiliation of the Author. Onward, Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] oil @ $33 per barrel
Have a struggling economy and a president who hopes to blue blazes consumers go out and buy, buy, buy? Not on your life if the cost of goods start going up as a result of increase fuel costs. Which equals another tailspin on consumer purchases. I used to have a rule in going clothing shopping to avoid, as much as possible, any artificial materials. But I must confess recently some of them seem better-done. I still try to avoid them, but if oil prices go up, so too might some clothing prices, and not that insignificantly. Even if made 12,000 miles away, a shirt with rayon or whatever in it will cost a bit more. At times like this, perhaps the world should be thankful for how Florida turned over so that the ignorance of US oil/foreign policy can be magnified enough for even the most near sighted. It's been surreal watching this happen, and will continue to be. It's possible that you are correct that it is perhaps better to see this play out sooner rather than later. I think the President caresto do his job and to see the U.S. to a bright future, but there are times when he seems to care more about protecting the Status Quo of Exxon-Mobil and GM. MM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] oil @ $33 per barrel
Things could be worse Puppet government in Iraq to help prevent OPEC switching from dollar to euro (english) MaxDProphet [repost from DC Indymedia] 2:03pm Fri Jan 3 '03 article#226551 http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=226551group=webcast The it's all about oil mantra gets fleshed out a little more by blogger GoreN4 via blogger ldabney at below address. Key oil producing states have already switched to the euro and now OPEC as a whole is ruminating on it. This would mean a big slide in the dollar, undercutting the value of our oligopolists' fortunes and undermining US power in general. http://www.praesentia.us/archives/2003_01.html#000227 The effect of an OPEC switch to the euro would be that oil-consuming nations would have to flush dollars out of their reserve funds and replace these with euros. The dollar would crash anywhere from 20-40% in value and the consequences would be those one could expect from any currency collapse and massive inflation (think Argentina currency crisis, for example). You'd have foreign funds stream out of the U.S. stock markets and dollar denominated assets, there'd surely be a run on the banks much like the 1930s, the current account deficit would become unserviceable, the budget deficit would go into default, and so on. Your basic 3rd world economic crisis scenario. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
