RE: [biofuel] Picking up my first load of used cooking oil
First, you can get some nice plastic buckets by doing a bit of 'dumpster-diving' behind supermarkets with bakeries. You might want to take a stick with a bent nail to fish them out. (sometimes some tasty frosting or fruit filling left-overs...yumm). There are nice 2 gallon ones there also that you might use to ladle with, this can also have the function of skimming the good oil from the top by pushing the whole bucket in, bottom first with another stick. Then you can use another empty 5 gallon to put the 2 gallon 'dipper' in still full of it's last dip, to transport it cleanly. Well, I hope I haven't totally confused you, good luck, and let us know what you finally do. Richard U -Original Message- From: TJ Ferreira [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 5:53 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Picking up my first load of used cooking oil Just getting started in making biodiesel. Ordering items I need to make my first batch as I have nothing other than the book from the fryer to the fuel tank. Decided to call a local restaurant and the chef there said I can come by and take cooking oil when he has it. He empties the used vegetable oil from the fryer into a big 15 gallon pot and then takes downstairs and empties into some big container of a company they pay to take it. He agreed to not empty it into this big tank and will call me when ready for pickup and I have to get it from this 15 gallon pot into some container I would have. So, question is, what type of containers do you all use when collecting? 5 gallon, ??? Are you just laddling it into your own container or use some device for sucking it from theirs into your own. I would like to make this as quick and easy as possible to not bother them so let me know of any neat tools I can use to collect oil. I have no containers so will need to buy some and wanted opinions first on what to get. Is there some electric pump I can get to connect to my car lighter and suck the oil into my pots? thomas Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Picking up my first load of used cooking oil
First, you can get some nice plastic buckets by doing a bit of 'dumpster-diving' behind supermarkets with bakeries. You might want to take a stick with a bent nail to fish them out. (sometimes some tasty frosting or fruit filling left-overs...yumm). There are nice 2 gallon ones there also that you might use to ladle with, this can also have the function of skimming the good oil from the top by pushing the whole bucket in, bottom first with another stick. Then you can use another empty 5 gallon to put the 2 gallon 'dipper' in, still full of it's last dip, to transport it cleanly. Well, I hope I haven't totally confused you, good luck, and let us know what you finally do. Richard U -Original Message- From: TJ Ferreira [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 5:53 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Picking up my first load of used cooking oil Just getting started in making biodiesel. Ordering items I need to make my first batch as I have nothing other than the book from the fryer to the fuel tank. Decided to call a local restaurant and the chef there said I can come by and take cooking oil when he has it. He empties the used vegetable oil from the fryer into a big 15 gallon pot and then takes downstairs and empties into some big container of a company they pay to take it. He agreed to not empty it into this big tank and will call me when ready for pickup and I have to get it from this 15 gallon pot into some container I would have. So, question is, what type of containers do you all use when collecting? 5 gallon, ??? Are you just laddling it into your own container or use some device for sucking it from theirs into your own. I would like to make this as quick and easy as possible to not bother them so let me know of any neat tools I can use to collect oil. I have no containers so will need to buy some and wanted opinions first on what to get. Is there some electric pump I can get to connect to my car lighter and suck the oil into my pots? thomas Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Biodiesel Equipment Class, berkeley, Ca, May 30
[Edited to remove html code.] Could you please outline the contents of the 80-page biodiesel homebrewing guidebook? Thanks! Derek = Homebrew Biodiesel Equipment Building and Design Class May 30, 12-6 Berkeley CA email me for directions to the workshop site: Ê [EMAIL PROTECTED] $20-$50 sliding scale optional 80-page biodiesel homebrewing guidebook available $8 I am teaching a one-day biodiesel equipment building workshop in Berkeley. At this class we will build a no-weld water heater-based 'Appleseed' biodiesel reactor, a standpipe wash tank, a methanol recovery condensor, and assemble basic wash gear. There will be a lot of discussion of reactor and system needs, engineering original systems, using any kind of tank you might come across, plumbing tools, materials compatibility, safety, basic plumbing and wiring, basics of pumps, and more. This will be slightly less hands-on than the two-day reactor building class I did in April but the same material will be covered. I am looking for ONE person who wants their equipment built as part of this class- if you would like your system built in class, please email me. You would need to provide a water heater and transport it to class (new they cost $200, used- perhaps free) and $225 for the other parts, which I would be able to pick up and bring to the class. Someone who only wants a reactor is also OK - the parts for a reactor only are approximately $150 plus however much your water heater costs you. For more info on the equipment, please look around at www.veggieavenger.com/media . If you are new (ish) to biodiesel homebrewing info, please familiarise yourself with the process by doing some reading at www.journeytoforever.org . If you are looking for a basic homebrewing class in the area, I am also doing my Comprehensive workshop on biodiesel homebrewing at Solar Living Institute in Hopland the day before, May 29. Here's a link to SLI's workshop info: http://store. solarlivingstore.com/bifufrve2920.html please note: I'm teaching in the New Mexico/Arizona this week, have poor internet access, and won't be checking list email as often as usual- it may take me a few days to respond to registration or to questions about the class. I apologise for any delay. Mark Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war
Hello Malcolm Interesting views aired, and valid too. But no nation is without guilt at some point in its history, in its treatment of its own nationals and those of other nations, past or present. The universal word that applies to us all, whatever nationality, is greed. As soon as we all loose this seemingly inherrant trait - the world will become something towards true freedom. I doubt I will see that day in my lifetime - but we have to hope, for the sake of our children. I don't agree with you that greed is a universal trait inherent to all. It's an aberration, not at all normal. The major activity of humans in society is cooperation. It's so common, ingrained in so much that we do, and for so long, that we mostly fail to notice it, like water to a fish. Please have a look at these two previous posts: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30675/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30694/ Best wishes Keith Kindest regards Malcolm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, balaji [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Colonisation was not however an unmitigated disaster for India and had many positives. We are bringing them to Christianity said Slater on the slave ship. An upright and honest judicial system that continued to dispense humane justice in spite of the many black laws enacted by the administration. The British judicial system was only intent upon ensuring the smooth exploitation of India - contracts law - that is what it was all about. Entire generations of Brahman were transformed from being spiritual non-materialistic beacons into judges who would ensure transactions that bled India of its resources. The many voices of conscience from Britain that spoke up for the natives. Churchill's voice rose above them all: naked little fakhir. Voices were raised around the world. Yet the British kept electing racist imperialistic governments The excellent education system which was mostly secular with little attempt at religious proselytisation. To transform Indians into good little servants - engineers, technical workers, etc. to better exploit the nation. Indians left alone would nevertheless have an excellent school system. They have no one to thank. Proselytisation would have spelled an unmanageable jihad against the occupiers. It was a practical choice, nothing more. The basic railroad that has mushroomed into the largest in the world. The railroad was built to move resources and workers. It was a system designed to rob Indians of their resources as efficiently as possible. What Indians did with it after the Brits were booted out is a testament to Indians, not to the British. I think it had partly to do with the British sense of justice and fairplay (it wasn't cricket) and the rule of law most of them abided by back in Britain. What a crock. Where is the fair play in keeping an entire nation subjugated by force of arms?. The fairplay myth is just that, a myth. It may have existed on a coventry cricket field, but it did not exist in any colony of any empire. That's possibly why slave trading initiated by the British in the Americas, was abolished in 1807, long before it happened in the USA. more likely from the extreme guilt associated with being the world's number one and most ruthless slave traders. Regards. balaji good reading on the matter: Freedom struggle http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/- /8173044422/qid=1084999512/sr=8-15/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i15_xgl14/103- 3251336-7764659?v=glances=booksn=507846 Pierre Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Items of information - was Fw: Your last e-mail
Hello Art Thankyou, Stuart should not have taken it offlist, especially after I asked that it stay onlist as several people were interested. I'm glad to see it return. It needs the preceding bit though, that was onlist, so I've added it at the end. Thanks again Best wishes Keith Addison List owner Keith, Per our discussion, I have these emails to submit to the Biofuels forum. These are a series of emails that I had with Stuart Hoernig on his concept of de-humidifying air with electrostatics. They read in reverse order. Stuart was kind enough to FAX me two pages which were the basis for his concept. I reviewed them and sent my comments back to him. He has chosen to stop further communication on the subject. I have designed several high voltage Cottrell Precipitators which successfully collect particulates from the air. We have been able to collect droplets but not unless they have condensed into droplets in the airstream due to saturation. Unsaturated vapors pass right through the unit without agglomerating. I look forward to the potential of seeing these items on the market but I am not looking too hard. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 2:07 PM Subject: Your last e-mail I see no reason for us to correspond any more , you are on AC and I am on DC. Hopefully you will see some of our inventions on the market on Phoenix by the end of the year. Stuart A. Hoernig Stuart, You mentioned the obvious - that air moving across a lake can increase the water evaporation by a factor of two. What was not obvious in your presentation was that the lake was at 50 degrees centigrade (see graph data). The vapor pressure of water at 20 degrees C = 17.5 mm Hg. The vapor pressure of water at 50 degrees C = 92.51 mm Hg. The vapor pressure is 5.3 times greater at 50 degrees C than at room temperature. Would you not expect water to evaporate at least five times faster with a five fold increase in vapor pressure when you agree that wind alone doubles the evaporation rate?? Electric wind velocity is proportional to voltage applied so you can generate nice graphs such as you presented when you compare evaporation rate vs time. You said, In normal evaporation many of the drops go back to the liquid phase, if the drops are evaporated electrostatically they will have a charge and will be repelled by the surface with has the opposite charge. In my world, opposite charges attract each other. You said, Last but not least the droplets evaporated from salt water are fresh, this has been understood for some 75 years. Where do you think CA gets all its water---rainfall. Yes, CA gets rainfall which comes from condensed water VAPOR from the ocean. The vapor stage leaves behind all the solids which you are proposing to collect the droplets with. Unless you have severely acid rain, water vapor is more of an insulator when it comes to collecting a charge. That is why thunderstorms can generate incredible voltages per meter and store such high energy fields in the clouds. If the clouds had high conductivity such as the ions you propose, lightning would not be generated in such huge bursts of energy. I think this subject needs some better review. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Stuart Hoenig To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information I guess I forgot to mention things I thought were obvious; 1) There will be a temperature drop as the water evaporates, you take some of the water and run it through long sections of plastic tubing that lie in the sun. You do not evaporate all the salt water only about 10-15 percent of it. The rest goes back to the ocean. Air moving across a lake does increase the rate of evaporation, this has been measured and at most it is a factor of 2. In normal evaporation many of the drops go back to the liquid phase, if the drops are evaporated electrostatically they will have a charge and will be repelled by the surface with has the opposite charge. Last but not least the droplets evaporated from salt water are fresh, this has been understood for some 75 years. Where do you think CA gets all its water---rainfall. Stuart Previous: From: Art Krenzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 17:42:52 -0700 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of information Keith, I have not heard from Stuart or seen anything on the site. I would like to review the technology with him as well. Art - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Items of
Re: [biofuel] Thanks!
Dear Mohamed And my thanks to you, so much, for saying so, but I must protest that credit would be due to the whole list, not just to me. But many thanks all the same, and I'm glad we've been of use to you. Loughborough... It's a long time since I was there. The town, not the university. Please give it my love. Best wishes Keith Dear Keith Addison Thank you for setting up this grate forum that has provided me with a lot of help in My PhD in Bio Diesel Processing, am sure others will agree with me that this is a grate job that you are doing and we all appreciate it Mohamed Hassan(PhD Researcher) Chem Eng Loughborough University Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Diesel VWs: High Mileage Vehicles, Well Kept Secrets?
Hakan, MM MM, You asked about VW, Europe and biodiesel. In Europe the VW diesels are certified for RME fuel (biodiesel). The are clearly stating that in the specifications. RME = Rapeseed Methyl Esters. They don't like soy biodiesel. It's been thought that this is more political than anything else - Europe grows rapeseed, the US grows soy. But biodiesel is biodiesel is biodiesel. Which is what the EPA says with their substantial equivalence for all feedstocks, although the NBB only tested virgin soy biodiesel. But there could be more to it. Rachel Burton posted a link to Lyle's site and her report on a recent SVO workshop with Elsbett engineer Alexander Noack. It included this interesting bit: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. http://www.biofuels.coop/blog/archives/66.html Energy Blog: Elsbett Workshop Slightly different, but if you have a look at the new Euro standard for biodiesel, here: National standards for biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#biodstds See Europe EN 14214, scroll down to Oxidation stability hrs; 110¡C - 6 hours min. Only Europe has such a standard, and the concern is polymerisation due to oxidation. The Iodine No. standard is 120; others are lower, but the US ASTM D-6751 doesn't specify an IV. The higher the IV the more it's a drying oil that will polymerise, the highest being linseed and fish oil and the lowest coconut and palm kernel. For an explanation see: Iodine Values http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine So have a look at these Iodine Values: Rapeseed oil, h. eruc. - 97 to 105 Rapeseed oil, i. eruc. - 110 to 115 Soybean oil - 125 to 1 So. I think there's some substance to this, I'll find out more soon. Meeting the German or Austrian standard isn't difficult, but the Euro standard might be, especially if we think bubblewashing is a great idea. Might have to drop bubblewashing, go for simple stirring instead (and making the stuff properly in the first place). Might have to use an additive as well. And, might have to drop soy too. Something tells me the ASTM standard isn't about to adopt these Euro oxidation limits any time soon. Anyway, both VW and Mercedes seem to be going for Fischer Tropsch diesel from biomass. Perhaps the reason they prefer it to biodiesel might be that it gives them a nice industrial, high-tech, expensive operation to invest in, well beyond the reach of this shabby riff-raff that's taken to making biodiesel in their garages and now the whole thing's right out of corporate control. :-) Best Keith Hakan At 20:16 19/05/2004, you wrote: I have collected four testimonials to high-mileage VW Diesels that came up in discussion. I have seen many such testimonials over the years, but I have been meaning to make a few points in response to them. These came up recently, in response to reports that the two gasoline hybrids have not been getting as good mileage as they advertise. My comments are below the four testimonials. snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Another first batch question
Hello Ryan Yesterday when I made my first biodiesel I used a cheap GE blender. I know that Josh Tickrell says in his book to shut off the blender if the motor and or mixing chamber gets excessively hot. Mine did get hot, but I don't know what he means by excessively hot. It certainly wasn't hot enough to burn me, but was well above room temperature. Is that an issue? Should I look for a different blender? Thanks, Ryan Ideal mixing temperature is 55 deg C, 130 deg F. A blender should be able to take that, but some blender motors might not like running for very long. Best to pre-heat the oil, and to pre-mix the methoxide, see: Methoxide the easy way http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html#easymeth Mixing the methoxide http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#methmix The methoxide gets a bit hot in the mixing, but it'll probably be back to room temp by the time you add it, so be aware that'll lower the overall temperature a bit. Don't overcompensate though, methanol boils at about 64 deg C, 147 deg F, so don't let it get too near that. If it ends up at 50C or higher that's okay. Fifteen or 20 minutes' mixing in a blender should be enough, and the oil should stay hot enough for that time. If your blender dies, there's a simple 1- or 2-litre test-batch processor here: Test-batch mini-processor http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html Be wary of Joshua Tickell's book! Best wishes Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Biodiesel Powered Chainsaw
Tom, Remarkable. Thank you so much for pushing the edge of the envelope. I may share your vision of the grease economy, but lacking imagination I have simply abandoned mowing, and weed eating. I now use a swingblade, and machetes, but my chainsaws are still on fossil. My hat is off to you. On May 19, 2004, at 6:03 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In case anyone wondered if this was possible, I finally started operating my biodiesel powered chainsaw today. Runs well. This is all part of my grease economy plan, a goal of replacing all types of fossil fueled equipment with renewable energy based alternatives. I'm on my way, but it will take a year or two more to replace every mower, string trimmer, rototiller, etc. Its not a matter of technology, as it is a matter of money. The chainsaw is a Stanley hydraulic chainsaw that has two 50' hoses from the live hydraulic circuit off of the biodiesel powered tractor. Its pretty good, the 50' tether is so far not a problem, I don't want to cut stuff that I have to carry farther than that from the tractor. Its quiet, doesn't vibrate, has plenty of power, but is not heavy. It doesn't blow exhaust back in my face, but there is a vague smell of lunch in the air. Still have to do a couple of cords to determine if it is an unbridled success. Tom Leue - Homestead Inc. www.yellowbiodiesel.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Lyle Estill CEO Blast Internet Services www.blast.com (919) 545-2551 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war
Dear Kieth, thanks for the warm welcome back, good to be back! I read the links you sent - fine, eloquent words. I think I must have become synical about certain aspects of life, especially here in the UK. We have a massive drugs problem brewing here, and with that an increase in related crime, as well as a huge influx of economic migrants reffugees from Eastern Europe, Iraq etc. We have an ever growing population of Asian people, a very hard working successful group in our society. All these factors are dramatically changing the way many look at things here, society is becomming fragmented too quickly for many to adjust to comfortably. The UK is a small Island compared to the US, so it is easy to understand how selfishness and greed can creep into the phsychy of the nation as a whole - as the land resources run out, panic sets in people become deffensive possessive over what they have. This situation has led many Brits to upsticks move to Spain elsewhere - perhaps that's what they mean when they say globalisation? I guess you're right. Maybe inherrant was a bad choice of wording. However, whilst cooperation for mutual benefit goes on around us all the time as with this forum and more, there are traits of greed that pervade our lives also. This starts at a basic level, involving everyday people, goes right to the top with our politicians, some of the biggest greed offenders of all time, vested interests all that. Collectively we are all subscribing to a greed ellement in our lives, we vote for politicians. As consumers, we are fuelling the greed of corporations who want to profit from us. As biofuel advocates, yes we are striving to save us all from environmental ruin, but at the same time we rub our hands in glee that we could be providing fuel for our own use without lining the coffers of corporations and governments. We are all subscribing to a greed culture of sorts, but that in itself is no bad thing as long as it ensures healthy competition, choice, benefit to all, leaving no one out of the equation. Unfortunately there are many in the world that are left out, which was really my point. As a biologist I see it as more of a case of parasitism or symbiosis, where the current emphasis, endorsed by politicians corporations is of a parasitic nature - take what you can no matter what the consequences - that's the next generation's problem or, the symbiotic approach, take what you need, use it wisely don't take anymore untill you know there's plenty more to take from again I'm not racist or fiercly nationalistic, I'm pro globalisation, it would help pull down the barriers between nations if we learned to share resources for the common good, but I just don't think we have learnt enough yet, as a species, to take things to that level, why? Because greed places that element of doubt suspicion that triggers the selfish side of mankind. We have still a long way to go, and much to learn before we shrug off our greatest burdon. If I sound like I'm spouting a load of uneducated twaddle - please say so I'll put on my sombraro and sod off to Spain with everyone else. Lol Regards Malcolm Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Malcolm, by the way, welcome back! Glad you're okay. Regards Keith Hello Malcolm Interesting views aired, and valid too. But no nation is without guilt at some point in its history, in its treatment of its own nationals and those of other nations, past or present. The universal word that applies to us all, whatever nationality, is greed. As soon as we all loose this seemingly inherrant trait - the world will become something towards true freedom. I doubt I will see that day in my lifetime - but we have to hope, for the sake of our children. I don't agree with you that greed is a universal trait inherent to all. It's an aberration, not at all normal. The major activity of humans in society is cooperation. It's so common, ingrained in so much that we do, and for so long, that we mostly fail to notice it, like water to a fish. Please have a look at these two previous posts: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30675/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30694/ Best wishes Keith Kindest regards Malcolm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, balaji [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Colonisation was not however an unmitigated disaster for India and had many positives. We are bringing them to Christianity said Slater on the slave ship. An upright and honest judicial system that continued to dispense humane justice in spite of the many black laws enacted by the administration. The British judicial system was only intent upon ensuring the smooth exploitation of India - contracts law - that is what it was all about. Entire generations of Brahman were transformed from being spiritual non-materialistic beacons into judges who would ensure transactions that bled India of its resources.
[biofuel] wood gas
http://www.dti.gov.uk/energy/renewables/publications/pdfs/bu100678.pdf Kirk Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Washing methods/Pressure
Matt, Mist and bubble washing are methods that were developed to prevent or reduce the formation of emulsions. The biggest problem is that the emulsions shouldn't occur in properly prepared fuel, meaning that rather than solving the problems of incomplete reactions, their inventors chose to try and engineer around that trivial little matter. Unfortunately, both have become standards in the homebrew circuit. If you prepare your fuel correctly, there is no reason why you cannot use mechanical agitation, aka motor and impeller. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Matt S [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 8:00 AM Subject: [biofuel] Washing methods/Pressure I'm in the process of planning out a garage-based biodiesel system, but I'm confused abou two things. First, what is the best method of washing biodiesel? I have heard of the mist method, which I assume sprays a light mist over the diesel, lets it sink to the bottom, which is then drained off. My question is how long would I let it mist for and what it used to provide a light mist? Would I be better off building a bubble wand? I want the process to be as automated as possible. Second, I keep hearing about people using a pressure tank for the biodiesel process. What is this used for? Thanks! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] deacidifying WVO
I do not seem to have enough information on this process: 9.6 g NaOH + 9.6 ml WVO, mix and add it to 40 ml water/liter of WVO, then add this to how many liters of WVO after soaps have been removed? I have been making 55 gallon batches succesfully until the big glop monster sucked up my brain. My titration of this smelly oil from a new high end restaurant is 1.8 grams/liter. Venceramos. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Washing methods/Pressure
hi all this is the method i use in my lab 1- evaporate off the methanol by gentle heating mainly to quantify how much is in the bio diesel and to attempt to recycle it 2 neutralise the biodiesel with HCL of a known morality mainly to quantify the alkalinity of the titration 3- wash with water distilled or de ionised 2 parts water to one bio diesel you will have 2 layers remove the bottom one as it is water and soaps 4- add activated carbon or any other substance to remove the access water 5-filter out the bio diesel just to remove any remaining impurities then centrifuge it at 4000rpm for 20 min then filter once more if the material split but most of the time it wont and BD is ready to use. All the best Mohamed hassan --- biobenz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: By far the method of choice is the Idaho Bubble Washing method; http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html#container all the details are laid out. And as for a wash tank design try: http://www.veggieavenger.com/avengerboard/viewtopic.php?t=333) Luc --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Matt S [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm in the process of planning out a garage-based biodiesel system, but I'm confused abou two things. First, what is the best method of washing biodiesel? I have heard of the mist method, which I assume sprays a light mist over the diesel, lets it sink to the bottom, which is then drained off. My question is how long would I let it mist for and what it used to provide a light mist? Would I be better off building a bubble wand? I want the process to be as automated as possible. Second, I keep hearing about people using a pressure tank for the biodiesel process. What is this used for? Thanks! __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains Claim yours for only $14.70/year http://smallbusiness.promotions.yahoo.com/offer Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] building a biodiesel fuel processor
Hi all,, I have been working on a fuel processor now for some time. I have the methoxide tank done,it is all stainless steel construction.Now I am building the reaction tank also stainless. It will have a heating coil in it, that is connected to my wood boiler to heat the used veg. oil up for the proper reaction temp..Also I am installing 3 240 volt electric heating elements in the tank,aprox.225 gallon in size in case I want a faster heat up of the oil.Also the temp . will be regulated automatically with 4 aquastats, one for each element and one for the main hot water coil in the tank.The aquastates are then connected to relays that power up the heating elements.The aquastats then automatically control the temp. in the tank..Also I am building a stainless tank for washing.Would it be a good idea to put a coil in this tank to control that temp. also or isnt it necessary? Thanks __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Domains Claim yours for only $14.70/year http://smallbusiness.promotions.yahoo.com/offer Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] wood gas
Kirk This is a british venture, where did the paper come from? Mark Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly...Ping your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Tuthill-Kinney Vacuum system - 3.1L per second methanol recovery
Hi I have a now excess 300 BHP 180m3 per minute Tuthill-Kinney liquid ring-mechanical booster vacuum system that is being refurbed such that methanol can be used as the liquid ring seal. Its equipped with heat exchangers, level control etc. Any one interested? Mark, UK Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly...Ping your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Syngas to methanol
Walt Have you looked at polyethene to ethanol reactors? Mark Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly...Ping your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Hard to describe the feeling
Luebering Oil - 573-365-3238 Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. 573.435.9628 - Office 573.435.1429 - Fax 281.682.4181 - Mobile http://www.accubak.com/ http://www.accubak.net/ Nationwide Internet Access Accurate backups for your critical data! -Original Message- From: Pool, Ryan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 12:30 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Hard to describe the feeling Mark, Thanks for the information. If it's not too much trouble I'll take the name and number from you. I don't know if it would be economically feasible since that's quite a trip for me but it would still be good to know how to get in touch with them. Thanks, Ryan -Original Message- From: Mark McElvy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 7:47 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [biofuel] Hard to describe the feeling If you don't mind driving a little, There is a supplier north of Jefferson City selling at $1.50 a gal in 55's. They sell clean drums for 15.00 or you can bring your own. I'll have to find there name and number if interested. Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. 573.435.9628 - Office 573.435.1429 - Fax 281.682.4181 - Mobile http://www.accubak.com/ http://www.accubak.net/ Nationwide Internet Access Accurate backups for your critical data! -Original Message- From: lostinthelife [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2004 10:50 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Hard to describe the feeling It's hard to describe what I'm feeling right now just sitting here looking. I'm a little proud, like a father who sees his child sleeping. I'm a little humble, like someone learning a new insight into the way nature works. I'm a little excited, like I'm standing on the threshold to a new beginning. I'm a little anxious, like someone who wants to get involved in something bigger than themselves. Why do I feel this way? You should know, you all probably felt this way about this same time in your life as well. I'm going to be tempted to stay up all night now because I'm watching it. I'm watching my very first batch of biodiesel separate. It's beautiful in it's own way. It's still cloudy, but I've already got about 20mm of darker glycerin on the bottom. I already know it's contaminated, but I don't care. I tried to dry out the container with my air compressor's blow gun but in my haste I forgot to take off the air tool oiler, so there's some oil in there. I couldn't find a scale that would measure out half a gram of lye, so I think I put too much in. It's really humid here right now, and I couldn't find any translucent lye anyway so maybe the extra lye is ok. Of course I didn't wash it, I'll learn to do that soon, but not tonight. Now I've got 'first batch' questions: 1. If I accidentally shake it and some of the glycerin mixes back in with the biodiesel will it settle back out again? 2. Would it be easier to remove the biodiesel if I chilled the container a little so the glycerin was thicker? 3. Will people like my roommate someday stop looking at me funny when I tell them I'm making my own diesel? 4. Is it just me or have I just done more to end terrorism than most of the politicians in Washington? 5. The only place in town that sells methanol charges $2 a gallon regardless of quantity. Is that typical? 6. Does anyone know a good place in the Kansas City area to buy methanol? 7. Are any of you from Kansas City? The guy I bought my methanol from told me there was someone else in there about two weeks ago who said he was going to make biodiesel as well. 8. Does watched biodiesel separate? Or should I go boil water and come back? 9. If I wanted to keep this bottled up for 'posterity' since it's my first batch, how long would it keep? Thanks for reading this incredibly long and rambling post. Ryan Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129kp9u0v/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups /S=1705083269:HM/EXP=1085065252/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http://companio n.yahoo.com click here http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S= :HM/A=2128215/rand=844170378 _ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [biofuel] Re: biodiesel in Nevada City / Grass Valley CA
Cool... let me know what you find out please. use my real email... [EMAIL PROTECTED] I miss emails on hotmail alot. Thanks. Matt - Original Message - From: TJ Ferreira [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 6:34 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: biodiesel in Nevada City / Grass Valley CA I just visited a new store up here in Grass Valley and the clerk tells me a Biodiesel Co-op will be starting soon here in GV. Ag Natural contact: Roy Harris 403 Idaho-Maryland Road Grass Valley, CA. 95945 TEL: (530) 274-0990 FAX: (530) 274-0980 Thomas --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, TJ Ferreira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am new to Biodiesel and just getting started but there is a company in Nevada City that sells Biodiesel. I found them in my search. I live in Grass Valley myself. Here is the information.. tj World Energy Alternatives; Nevada City, CA Phone: (530) 478-9196 Contact: Graham Noyes http://www.worldenergy.net --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Matt Golden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, I'm in the process of moving up to the Nevada City / Grass Valley area of CA... I wanted to find out if there were any biodiesel cooperatives in the area? Thanks. Matt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Making bio on the cheap
Hello all, Thought I'd add my 2 cents worth. Been making our own fuel for about a year and a half. Here's our story. I made my own processor out of a 55 ga metal drum. (People will GIVE these to you or you can buy them cheaply) Used the removable lid as the botton and cut out half of the old bottom to be the new top. Welded up a stand out of 2x2 angle and made a small lean towards the drain I installed in the bottom. I also welded in a piece I got at the local home center that allows me to screw in a 110volt H2O heater element. I make 40 gallonas at a time. I mix the Red devil lye in the meth in 5 gallon buckets and just pour it in. STIR OUT IN THE OPEN or wear a good resperator. I mix the batches up using a 1/3 HP sump pump that I just lower down in the soup. After mixing, I pull it out and set it on top of the uncut old bottom that is now the top. Then it drains right back into the mix. GETTING OIL: I have made contacts with some small restaurants. Some call mke and I pick up the 35lb containers from them and I have left 55 gal drums with some of the others. I bought a Honda 4 hp engine with a 1:6 reduction gear and it drives a gear pump. All mounted on a angle steel frame. (Ther IS no life without a mig welder) I bought some gas station hose at Grainger. So, when my people with the 55 galopon drums call, I just run over in the most beat-up discusting diesel vanagon with a barrel in it and pump the good stuff from their drum to mine. RAW OIL: I get cruddy soil oil and cruddy Canola oils. They both make great fuel, but titrate out VERY differently, so I save each until I have 40 gallons then either make a Canola batch or a soy batch. The soy fuel is light gold in color, the Canola fuel turns out darker. TEST BATCHES: I tried the blender method and found it to ba a BIG pain in the ass, so I use the diet coke method. I do my titration and then add a litre of raw to the diet coke bottle followed by 22 ml of metanol with the appropriate amount of lye mixed in. Shake well (put the cap back on first...) Let it set a few hours. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS make test batches! Best to screw up a litre versus 40 gallons!! FILTERS: I looked at the cost of the diesel fuel filters and about chocked!! So, I use water sedimant filters that fit in this neato $19 plastic container with inlet and outlet ports on it. The filters last a long time and get EVERYTHING out of the finished fuel. They cost about 2-3 a piece and I find a LOT of them sat yard sales. I use a tallow pump which is a gear drive pump for emptying fryers. (perfect) It is 110 volt and I use it to move the fuel to storasge containers etc. I use metal 5 gallojn fuel cans to fill the Wittle Wellow Wabbit and the discusting Vanagon, a 99 Golf and a soon to be ready to go to the beach diesel Vanagon Westy. I was priviledged to be asked to do a presentation at the Sol Fest here in Scottsdale last April. Giving up a nice Real Estste career to go back to school to get my teaching certificate. REALLY want to end up teaching alt energy and environmental issues to kids.. So if you have not ytried making any bio yet, GET TO IT!! Don't wait for the Government to fix the energy problem with their tax incentives etc. This is OUR country and WE have to save it. I feel the whole energy thing is a major crisis. RIDE YOR BIKE everywhere you can and then drive your bio car when you NEED it.You run into a nice class of people on the bike lanes PEACE, Kitch in Az Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Washing methods/Pressure
Preventing the poor reaction that allows the emulsion to form in the first place sounds like the real goal. Does Aleks Kac's Foolproof method create fuel that can withstand mechanical agitation during the wash phase? If not, what method does? Thanks, Ryan -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 11:45 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Washing methods/Pressure Matt, Mist and bubble washing are methods that were developed to prevent or reduce the formation of emulsions. The biggest problem is that the emulsions shouldn't occur in properly prepared fuel, meaning that rather than solving the problems of incomplete reactions, their inventors chose to try and engineer around that trivial little matter. Unfortunately, both have become standards in the homebrew circuit. If you prepare your fuel correctly, there is no reason why you cannot use mechanical agitation, aka motor and impeller. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Matt S [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 8:00 AM Subject: [biofuel] Washing methods/Pressure I'm in the process of planning out a garage-based biodiesel system, but I'm confused abou two things. First, what is the best method of washing biodiesel? I have heard of the mist method, which I assume sprays a light mist over the diesel, lets it sink to the bottom, which is then drained off. My question is how long would I let it mist for and what it used to provide a light mist? Would I be better off building a bubble wand? I want the process to be as automated as possible. Second, I keep hearing about people using a pressure tank for the biodiesel process. What is this used for? Thanks! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129ofj5n2/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=1705083269:HM/EXP=1085114744/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http://companion.yahoo.com click here http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S=:HM/A=2128215/rand=439412698 _ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Weird Gummy Stuff
When I went to add the second batch, there was this weird gummy stuff floating on top. It looked like tofu curds, or congealed something. Soap. Don't use a blender to mix your lye. You'll destroy the blender relative to future food uses. Worse still, the top could pop off while mixing, spreading casutic all over hell and half of creation. Even worse, the open frame motor could ignite methanol fumes, whether the container was leaking or not. Use a thick, translucent, 1 gallon, HDPE jug to mix the methoxide - NOT a thin milk jug. This will alow for a single batch and quick mixing into your oil, rather than the two you had before and any dallying before mixing it in. You'll need to crack the lid carefully and vent the pressure buildup once or twice before the caustic is completely dissolved. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Gundle, Noam [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 10:31 AM Subject: [biofuel] Weird Gummy Stuff Hello, I made a 5 gallon batch today, and had a few problems. I tried to mix the methanol/lye in blenders, and it didn't work. The seals of the blenders must be shot, because the methanol leaked out. So we mixed the methoxide by hand in a large beaker (all done in my fume hood). I added the lye in two batches, with half the methanol/lye in each. When I went to add the second batch, there was this weird gummy stuff floating on top. It looked like tofu curds, or congealed something. It was creamy brown and broke apart when I poked it. I hesitated to remove it because i worried about upsetting the balance of lye. I did take out one small piece to try to identify it. I have NEVER seen this before. Has anyone else? Any advice? Also, when I blended the methanol/lye, the container got very hot. I immediately stopped it because I was worried about explosions. It got hot when I mixed it by hand too. Is this normal? I would appreciate any help anyone feels like offering. thanks, Noam Gundle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] European Biofuel Issues
Thanks NTSL and Craig and bwelch. Looks like some comments worth discussing. I'm passing on Craig's comments especially to Keith Addison's biofuels list, which is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ as there may be some further hashing out of this information there. The more we all use the net to stay in touch with each other, the more transparent we can make this information, even if it gets a bit intricate. MM On Thu, 20 May 2004 12:25:17 +0200, you wrote: At 02:19 20.05.2004 +, you wrote: Yes, my friend in Germany tells me that the way diesel fuel is processed in Europe allows for low sulphur content and therefore allows for the use of highly efficient catalytic converters that remove the high emissions normally associated with diesels. Too bad we can't get this grade of diesel produced here in the uS. Then perhaps more environmnetally friendly people would consider diesel. Hi, I'm new to this list - my first posting. While you are right that fuel quality is higher in Europe (in France, you cannot generally get gasoline below 95 octane - do you still have 87 octane in the US?), I would just like to point out that environmentalists do not generally like diesel here. Greenpeace has greatly criticised VW for producing the Lupo, which gets nearly 100 mpg in a diesel version, and produced a spiffed-up Twingo called the Smile as a gasoline version that also got at least 100 mpg to prove its point: 3-liter cars (i.e. cars that consume 3 liters of fuel per 100 km, which is how mileage is measured here) do not have to be diesels. The particle filter the French introduced a few years ago reduces diesel particle emissions by more than 99%, but German manufacturers refuse to install it. They claim it may not be reliable, which they cannot claim forever as the things continue to work perfectly. The real reason thus seems to be that they don't want to charge customers an extra 150 euros that they then have to pass on to the French compeition, who hold the patent... Otherwise, diesel drivers here are filling up with biodiesel in the summer in growing numbers, when temperatures are warm enough to keep the stuff fluid. An expat in Germany, Craig Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Energy Star Ratings and cars and Trucks?
I am spending some time today researching energy star rated appliances at www.Energystar.gov It is quite fun to see the efforts being made or apparently being made by some manufacturers to allow some folks to buy appliances which will assist them in their financial and environmental conservation efforts. Why aren't cars and trucks included in Energy Star Ratings? Might this be a partial solution to the quandry of what to do about CAFE rules and the somewhat skewed results of them? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] (fwd) Saving time at the gas pump with a hybrid
I particularly like this one. We consumers so seldom have anyone make an effort to put a value on our time. And isn't our time important to us? And so much has been made over the years over the issue of lengthy recharge times for EVs. With fast-charging those EV fueling times are coming down (not that the auto companies seem to be publicizing this), and if one recharges only at home at night, it is questionable whether it takes anywhere near the same time with just a hookup or two and a button or two it takes to stop at a pump. Not to say that EVs don't still have their fuel time and range and other disadvantages along with advantages, but still, it's nice to see someone evaluate vehicles for how much time and effort they cost us in one area. Now, if only we could expand this thinking to time on the phone with insurance companies in an accident (and medical compensation to replace hair follicles pulled out). http://www.hybridcars.com/time_savings.html saving time at the gas pump with a hybrid car I recently received an email from Mark Linroth, a self-employed petroleum engineer who has owned approximately a dozen cars since getting his first driverâs license in 1976. As an engineer, he pays close attention to their operating characteristics and fuel economy. He calculates hybrid cost savings of $2,640 over an eight-year period using a constant $1.60 per gallon and 20,000 miles of driving per year. More importantly, he offers these observations about how much time he saves at the pump: äTo estimate the time savings we assume that on average the tank will be filled when it is near empty taking an average of 12 gallons each time. For me, fill-ups take approximately 10 minutes so I'll use that figure. ãIn 8 years at 12 gallons per fill-up, the hybrid will have to be re-fuelled 267 times for a total of 44 hours spent standing at the pump getting high off the gasoline fumes. The regular Civic will need to be re-fuelled 346 times for a total of 58 hours battling nicotine withdrawal (No smoking at the pump, please). äSince we can assume that most people do not get any significant utility from the act of re-fuelling, putting a monetary value on these hours depends on how you value your time. It depends on what else you would be doing instead with the additional 14 hours. äExample: if my alternate activity is talking to the IRS, the time is not that important. If I'm otherwise going to be late to the beginning of a chick-flick my wife has waited months to see, the value of the time is beyond measure. Added benefit, value priceless: at the present time, not all service stations have the pay-at-the-pump option. Thus, some portion of those 79 avoided fuel stops would have forced an encounter with a surly and incompetent store clerk. = Û¼¡`¡¼Û¿,üü,¿Û¼¡`¡¼Û¿Û¼¡`¡¼Û¿,üü,¿Û¼¡`¡¼Û¿ All-Energy News and Discussion http://groups.yahoo.com/group/All-Energy Û¼¡`¡¼Û¿,üü,¿Û¼¡`¡¼Û¿Û¼¡`¡¼Û¿,üü,¿Û¼¡`¡¼Û¿ __ Do you Yahoo!? SBC Yahoo! - Internet access at a great low price. http://promo.yahoo.com/sbc/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/All-Energy Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Least Costly Cars To Own.... according to one study's methodology
According to this study's methodology, fuel efficiency is important, though obviously not the only factor. The top 5 cars include an assortment of approaches, including the Hybrid Prius, the Non-Hybrid Civic and the VW TDI. http://money.cnn.com/2004/05/18/pf/autos/efficient_cost_to_own/ The real costs of fuel-efficient cars The most fuel-efficient autos may not always be the least expensive to own. May 19, 2004: 1:31 PM EDT NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - If you're looking to save money in this new era of rising gas prices, cars with high fuel-mileage figures are tempting. When looking at costs of ownership for five years, the cars that get the highest gas mileage tend be the least costly to own, not counting their depreciation. But while fuel costs are among the biggest items in overall ownership cost, there are many other factors to consider. On this list of the 15 most fuel-efficient, according to the autos Web site Edmunds.com, the typical Honda Insight driver will spend more than $2,500 less on fuel over 5 years than the driver of a Toyota Celica, the 15th-ranked car on the list. [...] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Energy Star Ratings and cars and Trucks?
It's a good point. I've been investigating Energy Star ratings for buildings. Why not vehicles? On May 20, 2004, at 12:39 PM, murdoch wrote: I am spending some time today researching energy star rated appliances at www.Energystar.gov It is quite fun to see the efforts being made or apparently being made by some manufacturers to allow some folks to buy appliances which will assist them in their financial and environmental conservation efforts. Why aren't cars and trucks included in Energy Star Ratings? Might this be a partial solution to the quandry of what to do about CAFE rules and the somewhat skewed results of them? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM - ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Lyle Estill CEO Blast Internet Services www.blast.com (919) 545-2551 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] The Vegan Car: Greasel, not diesel...
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/laweekly/20040514/lo_laweekly/53474 Fri May 14, 7:49 PM ET Add Local - Los Angeles Weekly to My Yahoo! By Joshuah Bearman LA Weekly Writer A sticker on the blue Dodge read: ask me about veggie power. The truck belonged to Joel Wolf, a rancher, surfer and longtime diesel mechanic, who had agreed to meet me at Summit Restaurant up above the Ojai Valley, so that I could do just what the sticker requested. Recently, Joel formed a company to propagate the usage of discarded vegetable oil as an alternative fuel. And no matter how many times the question is put to him ÷ Okay, so what gives with veggie power? ÷ Joel cant contain his enthusiasm when answering. He loves it. Its liberating. Its the future. It makes freaking sense. Veggie power, as he put it over a chocolate malted outside the Summit, is totally bitchen. Joel is part of a growing movement that is realizing the latent environmental and economic potential of diesel engines by converting them to run on the oil thrown away daily by thousands of restaurants. Making a relatively small investment, these folks install parallel fuel systems in their cars and trucks, into which they can pour grease collected from the back of Wendys, Wienerschnitzel or any eatery that serves fried food. They adapt all kinds of vehicles, share technical information, transverse the country, stopping at diners every 500 miles or so, proselytizing along the way. Greasel, its called ÷ or at least thats one coinage catching on because its the name of the company selling the most popular conversion kit. The Depart-ment of Energy prefers the more technical designation of waste vegetable oil (WVO), but among devotees the term that generates the most enthusiasm is a passionately pronounced straight veg. [etc.] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war
Hello Pierre, and all This is all quite correct, but you and Balaji are looking at it from different viewpoints, you from that of the society that did the colonising, which should indeed be working on such self-examination, and he from that of a society that was colonised, which now has to get on with life. I don't think it's a widely held view in India that the colonial occupation was a Good Thing, and India would have been the worse off without it. I don't think India has blinded itself either, with any or much pretence and denial over their history. They had to accept it, good and bad (or bad and good maybe), assess it as best they could (not a process that's ended yet), adjust what they could, adapt as they could, and move on, not attempting to leave it all behind (obviously not possible), but hopefully not harbouring grudges and resentments either, or as little as possible anyway, because that isn't a sound basis for a society facing the considerable challenges of independence. Such resentment makes it much too easy to cast blame on distant culprits when things go wrong instead of facing the problems and dealing with them, and it's very tempting. Not good for the spirit, of a person or of a society. I think India's done very well in resisting it. Of course it's not over yet, not for either side. But when Balaji says this, for instance: Colonisation was not however an unmitigated disaster for India and had many positives. - I can see why he says it, and I agree, but I doubt he's unaware of the points you make (neither am I). Yes, the judicial system was as you say, but India has been able to turn it to the use that Balaji says. Yes the railway system was built for extraction and exploitation, but that's not what the Indians use it for and it's definitely an asset to them. Yes, there were Churchills and racists (and there still are), but there were many voices of conscience too, and they were not ineffective. You might enjoy this book by the excellent Dr Wrench: The Restoration of the Peasantries, With especial reference to that of India by G.T. Wrench http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#Wrench_Rest Best wishes Keith --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, balaji [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Colonisation was not however an unmitigated disaster for India and had many positives. We are bringing them to Christianity said Slater on the slave ship. An upright and honest judicial system that continued to dispense humane justice in spite of the many black laws enacted by the administration. The British judicial system was only intent upon ensuring the smooth exploitation of India - contracts law - that is what it was all about. Entire generations of Brahman were transformed from being spiritual non-materialistic beacons into judges who would ensure transactions that bled India of its resources. The many voices of conscience from Britain that spoke up for the natives. Churchill's voice rose above them all: naked little fakhir. Voices were raised around the world. Yet the British kept electing racist imperialistic governments The excellent education system which was mostly secular with little attempt at religious proselytisation. To transform Indians into good little servants - engineers, technical workers, etc. to better exploit the nation. Indians left alone would nevertheless have an excellent school system. They have no one to thank. Proselytisation would have spelled an unmanageable jihad against the occupiers. It was a practical choice, nothing more. The basic railroad that has mushroomed into the largest in the world. The railroad was built to move resources and workers. It was a system designed to rob Indians of their resources as efficiently as possible. What Indians did with it after the Brits were booted out is a testament to Indians, not to the British. I think it had partly to do with the British sense of justice and fairplay (it wasn't cricket) and the rule of law most of them abided by back in Britain. What a crock. Where is the fair play in keeping an entire nation subjugated by force of arms?. The fairplay myth is just that, a myth. It may have existed on a coventry cricket field, but it did not exist in any colony of any empire. That's possibly why slave trading initiated by the British in the Americas, was abolished in 1807, long before it happened in the USA. more likely from the extreme guilt associated with being the world's number one and most ruthless slave traders. Regards. balaji good reading on the matter: Freedom struggle http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/- /8173044422/qid=1084999512/sr=8-15/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i15_xgl14/103- 3251336-7764659?v=glances=booksn=507846 Pierre Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM
Re: [biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war
Dear Malcolm Dear Kieth, thanks for the warm welcome back, good to be back! :-) Good to have you. I read the links you sent - fine, eloquent words. I think I must have become synical about certain aspects of life, especially here in the UK. Well then let's see if we can cheer you up a little over the general prospect. We have a massive drugs problem brewing here, and with that an increase in related crime, as well as a huge influx of economic migrants reffugees from Eastern Europe, Iraq etc. We have an ever growing population of Asian people, a very hard working successful group in our society. All these factors are dramatically changing the way many look at things here, society is becomming fragmented too quickly for many to adjust to comfortably. The UK is a small Island compared to the US, so it is easy to understand how selfishness and greed can creep into the phsychy of the nation as a whole But many Americans are most bothered about how that's happening there, along with the fragmentation you mention, more usually seen in the US case as a polarisation (though with more sides than two, as yet). - as the land resources run out, panic sets in people become deffensive possessive over what they have. That state of mind has many potential routes of arrival. Again in the US, what many blame is the exploitation and engendering of fear (the emotion, as opposed to actual risk and danger). Perhaps we have to look further for the true causes. This situation has led many Brits to upsticks move to Spain elsewhere - perhaps that's what they mean when they say globalisation? Or dislocation? Yes, I know they call it relocation. I guess you're right. Maybe inherrant was a bad choice of wording. However, whilst cooperation for mutual benefit goes on around us all the time as with this forum and more, there are traits of greed that pervade our lives also. This starts at a basic level, involving everyday people, goes right to the top with our politicians, some of the biggest greed offenders of all time, vested interests all that. Ah, now, would you mind if I rearranged things a little? How about: This starts at the top with our politicians, some of the biggest greed offenders of all time, vested interests all that, goes right to a basic level, involving everyday people. Now try seeing it as a ploy rather than a (natural) phenomenon, so you can ask Who benefits?, and then ask How and Why. If it's the result of a more or less successful ploy, and a very heavily funded one at that, then you can see it as imposed rather than inherent. Comparisons that confirm that are quite easy to find. Collectively we are all subscribing to a greed ellement in our lives, we vote for politicians. Do you vote for the choice you're presented with? ... scrawled wisdom in the men's loo at a Brighton pub, circa 1980 - 'If voting could change anything it would be illegal'. Gore Vidal says of the US that the two parties are really one party representing 4% of the people. The 4% is probably optimistic. Chomsky talks of the two branches of the business party. It's much the same in the UK. Did you vote for that? As consumers, we are fuelling the greed of corporations who want to profit from us. Yup. How do you think it is that they manage to kick you and society into the best shape to enable that? As we naturally are wouldn't work all that well, and indeed it didn't. Advertising is now a $435 billion business. But that's a conservative estimate of annual global expenditures. If all forms of marketing are included, the figure rises to nearer $1 trillion. This is a little simplistic, but nonetheless it's true to say that advertising has one major purpose - to make people feel dissatisfied with what they've got. That figure of $1 trillion probably doesn't include much of the huge amounts spent on manipulating opinion (manufacturing consent) via the PR industry, the right-wing foundations and the think-tanks they fund so heavily, the corporate and other support for politicians and political campaigns, which comes in many forms, subversion of the media via ownership and concentration... Another quote -- Australian social scientist Alex Carey says The 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy. You can fool too many of the people too much of the time. As biofuel advocates, yes we are striving to save us all from environmental ruin, but at the same time we rub our hands in glee that we could be providing fuel for our own use without lining the coffers of corporations and governments. Hm... You're stretching it a bit Malcom, I wouldn't see that as greed, there's a lot more to it. Sure, a lot of us (no idea what proportion) just want to save a buck, especially when
Re: [biofuel] deacidifying WVO
cholla51 wrote: I do not seem to have enough information on this process: 9.6 g NaOH + 9.6 ml WVO, mix and add it to 40 ml water/liter of WVO, then add this to how many liters of WVO after soaps have been removed? I have been making 55 gallon batches succesfully until the big glop monster sucked up my brain. My titration of this smelly oil from a new high end restaurant is 1.8 grams/liter. Venceramos. There's enough information, you just haven't read it right. It's here: Deacidifying WVO http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#deacid It follows straight on from this: High FFA levels http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#highffa ... which starts like this: Most people find their used cooking oil generally gives a titration of 2-3 ml, but some used oils can have much higher FFA levels than this -- we've seen horrific titration levels of 9.6 ml. etc. Not much need for deacidifying oil that titrates at a mere 1.8 gm/litre. Still, if you must, it should be easy enough. But I don't see how you could misinterpret it like that. Here's the text: Use the titration amount of NaOH -- eg, 9.6 grams for our 9.6 ml WVO -- and mix it with 40 ml of water per liter of oil. It gets hot. Use a stainless steel container, mix it outside (by stirring), and take care! This is very corrosive stuff, take full safety precautions, have running water handy. Add the dissolved NaOH to the oil (room temperature), stir gently by hand until thoroughly mixed. Settle overnight. This leaves soapstock at the bottom. The water is apparently in the soapstock. Filter to remove the soapstock -- no need for fine filtering, fine steel mesh will do (like a fine tea strainer). Now process as usual for virgin oil -- 3.5 grams NaOH per liter of oil, but use 25% methanol, 55 deg C, good and prolonged agitation as usual. I do not seem to have enough information on this process: 9.6 g NaOH + 9.6 ml WVO, mix and add it to 40 ml water/liter of WVO, then add this to how many liters of WVO after soaps have been removed? That's completely wrong. 9.6 g NaOH is the titration level of the high FFA oil used in the example given: eg, 9.6 grams for our 9.6 ml WVO. With your oil, titrating at 1.8 gm, you'd use 1.8 g NaOH, wouldn't you? + 9.6 ml WVO - it's not plus 9.6 ml WVO: it says Use the titration amount of NaOH -- eg, 9.6 grams for our 9.6 ml WVO. With your oil, as opposed to our oil, use the titration amount, as it says, 1.8 gm, not plus any amount of WVO - it doesn't say that. The use of grams and millilitres (ml) shouldn't confuse you, or not if you understand basic titration. When you titrated your oil it would have taken 1.8 milliliters of 0.1% lye solution to reach pH8.5, so you'd need an extra 1.8 grams of NaOH, right? - 1.8 grams of NaOH for *your* 1.8 milliliter WVO. Surely that's clear. Basic titration http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#titrate Anyway: Use the titration amount of NaOH -- eg, 9.6 grams for our 9.6 ml WVO -- and mix it with 40 ml of water per liter of oil. So you'd mix 1.8 grams of NaOH per litre of oil with 40 ml of water per liter of oil... then add this to how many liters of WVO after soaps have been removed? Huh? How did you get to remove the soaps already? This process converts the acids - FFAs, Free Fatty Acids - to soaps, and you haven't got that far yet. Mix 1.8 grams of NaOH per liter of oil with 40 ml of water per liter of oil... and add this to how many liters of oil? How about 1 liter of oil? Mix thoroughly (but gently!), settle overnight, and the saponified FFAs settle out as soapstock. Anyway, if your titration was accurate, I doubt that your 55 gals of glop is due to any excess of FFAs that would justify removal by this extra step. It's smelly? You mean rotten, rancid? Did you check it for water content? Have you tried a small test bach? Or perhaps the poor man's titration? See: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/33676/ Best wishes Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] re: weird gummy stuff
Keith, We did NOT end up with biodiesel. The consistancy is close to that of the original grease. I am unsure now what to do with the stuff. I think I didn't mix the lye/methanol enough and something reacted with the animal fat. I don't know. I did the same experiment with my 6th period class and it seemed turn out alright. I mixed methoxide in a plastic bucket with a mixer and by hand. I was scared of static electricity making a spark though and igniting the whole thing. Is this a danger? Is the methanol less volatile once you add the lye? thanks, Noam Gundle Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Received a message from biofuel-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com biofuel-unsubscribe
I received a message from that email address. The email contains an attachment. Being the suspicious type, I expect it's an attempt to infect me with a virus, since I have not yet unsubscribed from this list. Anyone else seen such emails? Bryan Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Washing methods/Pressure
Yes Ryan, As do all methods if they are conducted properly. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Pool, Ryan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 10:21 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Washing methods/Pressure Preventing the poor reaction that allows the emulsion to form in the first place sounds like the real goal. Does Aleks Kac's Foolproof method create fuel that can withstand mechanical agitation during the wash phase? If not, what method does? Thanks, Ryan -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 11:45 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Washing methods/Pressure Matt, Mist and bubble washing are methods that were developed to prevent or reduce the formation of emulsions. The biggest problem is that the emulsions shouldn't occur in properly prepared fuel, meaning that rather than solving the problems of incomplete reactions, their inventors chose to try and engineer around that trivial little matter. Unfortunately, both have become standards in the homebrew circuit. If you prepare your fuel correctly, there is no reason why you cannot use mechanical agitation, aka motor and impeller. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Matt S [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 8:00 AM Subject: [biofuel] Washing methods/Pressure I'm in the process of planning out a garage-based biodiesel system, but I'm confused abou two things. First, what is the best method of washing biodiesel? I have heard of the mist method, which I assume sprays a light mist over the diesel, lets it sink to the bottom, which is then drained off. My question is how long would I let it mist for and what it used to provide a light mist? Would I be better off building a bubble wand? I want the process to be as automated as possible. Second, I keep hearing about people using a pressure tank for the biodiesel process. What is this used for? Thanks! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=129ofj5n2/M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups /S=1705083269:HM/EXP=1085114744/A=2128215/R=0/SIG=10se96mf6/*http://companio n.yahoo.com click here http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=295196.4901138.6071305.3001176/D=groups/S= :HM/A=2128215/rand=439412698 _ Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] building a biodiesel fuel processor
ardis streeter wrote: Hi all,, I have been working on a fuel processor now for some time. I have the methoxide tank done,it is all stainless steel construction.Now I am building the reaction tank also stainless. It will have a heating coil in it, that is connected to my wood boiler to heat the used veg. oil up for the proper reaction temp..Also I am installing 3 240 volt electric heating elements in the tank,aprox.225 gallon in size in case I want a faster heat up of the oil.Also the temp . will be regulated automatically with 4 aquastats, one for each element and one for the main hot water coil in the tank.The aquastates are then connected to relays that power up the heating elements.The aquastats then automatically control the temp. in the tank..Also I am building a stainless tank for washing.Would it be a good idea to put a coil in this tank to control that temp. also or isnt it necessary? Thanks Hello Ardis, it is my understanding that you would not need to heat the washing tank, as long as temperature would stay above the gelling point of the biodiesel. -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Washing methods/Pressure
Hi Ryan Preventing the poor reaction that allows the emulsion to form in the first place sounds like the real goal. That's quite right. Does Aleks Kac's Foolproof method create fuel that can withstand mechanical agitation during the wash phase? If not, what method does? Both do, when done properly. But if you're still at the stage where you get a poor reaction with the single-stage method you're not ready to move on to the acid-base process yet. The two-stage processes are advanced methods, not for novices. Much better to master the single-stage process first, along with titration and everything else. So just keep going Ryan, you're on the right track and doing well, no reason to lose heart now. Quite the opposite! The goal is to be able to make biodiesel that will withstand the shake test. Quality testing http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality When you've done that then you can move on to the Foolproof method if you like, as many do. Bes wishes Keith Thanks, Ryan -Original Message- From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 11:45 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Washing methods/Pressure Matt, Mist and bubble washing are methods that were developed to prevent or reduce the formation of emulsions. The biggest problem is that the emulsions shouldn't occur in properly prepared fuel, meaning that rather than solving the problems of incomplete reactions, their inventors chose to try and engineer around that trivial little matter. Unfortunately, both have become standards in the homebrew circuit. If you prepare your fuel correctly, there is no reason why you cannot use mechanical agitation, aka motor and impeller. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Matt S [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 8:00 AM Subject: [biofuel] Washing methods/Pressure I'm in the process of planning out a garage-based biodiesel system, but I'm confused abou two things. First, what is the best method of washing biodiesel? I have heard of the mist method, which I assume sprays a light mist over the diesel, lets it sink to the bottom, which is then drained off. My question is how long would I let it mist for and what it used to provide a light mist? Would I be better off building a bubble wand? I want the process to be as automated as possible. Second, I keep hearing about people using a pressure tank for the biodiesel process. What is this used for? Thanks! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Least Costly Cars To Own.... according to one study's methodology
murdoch wrote: According to this study's methodology, fuel efficiency is important, though obviously not the only factor. The top 5 cars include an assortment of approaches, including the Hybrid Prius, the Non-Hybrid Civic and the VW TDI. http://money.cnn.com/2004/05/18/pf/autos/efficient_cost_to_own/ I figured out the total cost [with their numbers] for 5 years. Cost to own includes insurance, fuel costs, maintenance and repairs and other costs + purchase price. I am puzzled by the fact that the Chevy Cavalier is not included, with a $10k base price and 47MPG highway. It gets better mileage than a Civic and costs less. CostMakeModel $28081 Toyota ECHO $28259 Honda Civic $29552 Scion xA $29768 Toyota Corolla $30985 Dodge Neon $31351 Scion xB $32466 Toyota Matrix $33301 Volkswagen Golf $33366 Volkswagen New Beetle $34504 Volkswagen Jetta $35195 Honda Civic Hybrid $35873 Honda Insight $36400 Pontiac Vibe $36641 Toyota Prius $37680 Toyota Celica Table for fuel costs [est. 5 year] fuelMakeModel $2,406 Honda Insight $2,896 Toyota Prius $3,112 Volkswagen Golf $3,112 Volkswagen Jetta $3,112 Volkswagen New Beetle $3,122 Honda Civic Hybrid $3,746 Honda Civic $3,849 Toyota ECHO $4,156 Toyota Corolla $4,412 Scion xA $4,608 Pontiac Vibe $4,608 Toyota Matrix $4,810 Scion xB $4,995 Dodge Neon $4,995 Toyota Celica -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Least Costly Cars To Own.... according to one study 's methodology
Martin, Is this a diesel or something else - a non-USA model? The cavalier, according to yahoo autos, achieves 27-37 mpg. http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/chevrolet_cavalier_2005/3916/model_overview.h tml -Original Message- From: Martin Klingensmith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 11:42 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Least Costly Cars To Own according to one study's methodology murdoch wrote: According to this study's methodology, fuel efficiency is important, though obviously not the only factor. The top 5 cars include an assortment of approaches, including the Hybrid Prius, the Non-Hybrid Civic and the VW TDI. http://money.cnn.com/2004/05/18/pf/autos/efficient_cost_to_own/ I figured out the total cost [with their numbers] for 5 years. Cost to own includes insurance, fuel costs, maintenance and repairs and other costs + purchase price. I am puzzled by the fact that the Chevy Cavalier is not included, with a $10k base price and 47MPG highway. It gets better mileage than a Civic and costs less. CostMakeModel $28081 Toyota ECHO $28259 Honda Civic $29552 Scion xA $29768 Toyota Corolla $30985 Dodge Neon $31351 Scion xB $32466 Toyota Matrix $33301 Volkswagen Golf $33366 Volkswagen New Beetle $34504 Volkswagen Jetta $35195 Honda Civic Hybrid $35873 Honda Insight $36400 Pontiac Vibe $36641 Toyota Prius $37680 Toyota Celica Table for fuel costs [est. 5 year] fuelMakeModel $2,406 Honda Insight $2,896 Toyota Prius $3,112 Volkswagen Golf $3,112 Volkswagen Jetta $3,112 Volkswagen New Beetle $3,122 Honda Civic Hybrid $3,746 Honda Civic $3,849 Toyota ECHO $4,156 Toyota Corolla $4,412 Scion xA $4,608 Pontiac Vibe $4,608 Toyota Matrix $4,810 Scion xB $4,995 Dodge Neon $4,995 Toyota Celica -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] European Biofuel Issues
Thankyou MM and all Thanks NTSL and Craig and bwelch. Looks like some comments worth discussing. I'm passing on Craig's comments especially to Keith Addison's biofuels list, which is here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ as there may be some further hashing out of this information there. Hopefully. I haven't looked at this recently so some of the details may be fuzzy, but I think the overall picture should be right. IIRC Europe introduced low-sulphur diesel in the early 90s, in stages. The US will introduce it in 2007 it seems - 15 years later? Why the delay? No apparent technical reason, and even if there were, how could European technology be 15 years ahead of the US? Especially since they're transnationals. One factor is that the oil companies in the US protested that it would cost too much to gear up the refineries. A more recent study found that it wouldn't, what a surprise, and found no technical barriers either. That aside, they've failed to keep up the refineries anyway, they lack overall capacity, as far as I understand it. Whatever, that 15-year gap just isn't acceptable, is it? Along with all the other gaps, which you know of - CAFE standards worse now than 15 years ago, etc etc etc. It would be hard to find a better case for illustrating that all the wrong people are calling all the wrong tunes for all the wrong reasons. The more we all use the net to stay in touch with each other, the more transparent we can make this information, even if it gets a bit intricate. Indeed. It baffles me that some people take exception to cross-posting, what nonsense. Sure, you have to be judicious about it, but you have to be judicious with mailing lists anyway, don't you? Nothing wrong with cross-posting, quite the opposite. Please keep going MM, it's helping to build up a clear picture. Best Keith MM On Thu, 20 May 2004 12:25:17 +0200, you wrote: At 02:19 20.05.2004 +, you wrote: Yes, my friend in Germany tells me that the way diesel fuel is processed in Europe allows for low sulphur content and therefore allows for the use of highly efficient catalytic converters that remove the high emissions normally associated with diesels. Too bad we can't get this grade of diesel produced here in the uS. Then perhaps more environmnetally friendly people would consider diesel. Hi, I'm new to this list - my first posting. While you are right that fuel quality is higher in Europe (in France, you cannot generally get gasoline below 95 octane - do you still have 87 octane in the US?), I would just like to point out that environmentalists do not generally like diesel here. Greenpeace has greatly criticised VW for producing the Lupo, which gets nearly 100 mpg in a diesel version, and produced a spiffed-up Twingo called the Smile as a gasoline version that also got at least 100 mpg to prove its point: 3-liter cars (i.e. cars that consume 3 liters of fuel per 100 km, which is how mileage is measured here) do not have to be diesels. The particle filter the French introduced a few years ago reduces diesel particle emissions by more than 99%, but German manufacturers refuse to install it. They claim it may not be reliable, which they cannot claim forever as the things continue to work perfectly. The real reason thus seems to be that they don't want to charge customers an extra 150 euros that they then have to pass on to the French compeition, who hold the patent... Otherwise, diesel drivers here are filling up with biodiesel in the summer in growing numbers, when temperatures are warm enough to keep the stuff fluid. An expat in Germany, Craig Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Received a message from biofuel-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com biofuel-unsubscribe
I received a message from that email address. The email contains an attachment. Being the suspicious type, I expect it's an attempt to infect me with a virus, since I have not yet unsubscribed from this list. Anyone else seen such emails? Bryan False sender's address, can't be helped. Certainly a virus. We've had quite a few viruses purporting to come from Yahoo. We've even had viruses purporting to come from Journey to Forever, even from us personally, doing things like warning us that our email service is going to be closed down, please see the attachment (not!). It's happening to everyone, including a lot of the big environment groups, NGOs, businesses, all sorts of people. Keep your system properly patched and protected, keep your virus gear up to date, be a suspicious type. You can't get a virus via the group, by the way, it just can't happen. But you can get a virus from a false address pretending to be from the group, though you should be able to see the difference, as you did with this. Dear old Micro$oft, what a disaster. Yes, sure, if you keep it all squeaky-clean then there's no problem, right. Maybe it's even true, but during the most recent virus onslaught something like 70 million Windoze computers were infected and spewing out viruses and spam, the owners all cheerfully unaware. A security survey of a million computers in businesses in the US found an *average* infection rate of 28 viruses and worms per machine. It won't get better until M$ wakes up to the idea that maybe a secure OS might be something to think about. Holding your breath is contraindicated. Dumbo system administrators who set up protection systems that automatically send the damned things *back* to where they almost certainly didn't come from don't exactly help, but it seems to be their default mode. :-( Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Syngas to methanol
At 02:42 PM 5/20/04 +0100, you wrote: Walt Have you looked at polyethene to ethanol reactors? Mark Nope. Tell us more :-) Walt Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] crossposting?
CAFE standards worse now than 15 years ago, etc etc etc. It would be hard to find a better case for illustrating that all the wrong people are calling all the wrong tunes for all the wrong reasons. The more we all use the net to stay in touch with each other, the more transparent we can make this information, even if it gets a bit intricate. Indeed. It baffles me that some people take exception to cross-posting, what nonsense. Sure, you have to be judicious about it, but you have to be judicious with mailing lists anyway, don't you? Nothing wrong with cross-posting, quite the opposite. It sounds like you may have heard from some who don't like it. If I am doing it in a way that people don't like, then nobody has made me aware of this, recently. They could do so, politely, I think, in a way that might cause me to consider modifying some of it. What I have done over the years is, as you say, try to be judicious about it, basically giving things a relevancy test, and trying to BCC sometimes instead of cc'ing. The purpose of the BCC'ing in my view is to try not to develop too many incoherent conversations. Sometimes I forget to BCC, and this is when we see the crosspost, but lately I am moving more toward BCC'ing, but not to an absolute extent. Putting myelf in the position of the reader and not the poster, there are times when I find crossposting to some extent annoying, and times when I find it to some extent helpful. I sort of like to see, sometimes, for example, when it's a news post or a general initiation of a topic, where else the author is putting his thoughts. The times when I don't like it I guess might be when it becomes visually annoying with too many screwed up subject lines, and-or where the conversations do not connect to each other. In this particular instance, the scales were clearly tipped in favor of passing on the info, because it is so valuable to me (and I assume, some others) to get some of the low-down from far-away lands as to what is going on in these worldwide-relevant activities. But this particular case was a special instance, as I was specifically directing people to this (biofuel) group. The argument for crossposting is, I guess, partly the overall rule of erring on the side of getting the info out there to the people who might want to see it, even if it gets a bit sloppy sometimes and, in the opinion of some, uses a little too much bandwidth. But, that said, I do think there's a place for me and others to modify crossposting behaviour so that it conforms to principles that amount to good netiquette? I know that some folks hate crossposting and consider all crossposting poor netiquette. In that case, I'll just fail netiquette I guess. But I'll listen to or read contrary opinions, and give them consideration. MM Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Diesel VWs: High Mileage Vehicles, Well Kept Secrets?
Alexander Noack of Elsbett made the same statement to me regarding the lubricating oil contamination problems when using soybean SVO. (We were discussing only SVO so I am not sure if he also meant to imply soybean based Biodiesel as well.) I did some research on the lubrication oil contamination issue and polymerization issue and the following links may be helpful: http://www.missouri.edu/~pavt0689/Research_Needs_Resulting.pdf http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19990902_gen-228.pdf http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Pages/biodiesel21.html The vegetable-based lubricating oil that is referred to, is mandatory to use in Elsbett converted engines, according to the Elsbett instructions. However, this lubricating oil, made by Fuchs, is not sold in the U.S. so this poses a problem. However, I have not been able, so far, to find any other Elsbett customers in the U.S. who seem concerned by this. Bruce Colley, Sustainable Energy Project http://www.sustainableenergyproject.org - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 2004 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Diesel VWs: High Mileage Vehicles, Well Kept Secrets? Hakan, MM MM, You asked about VW, Europe and biodiesel. In Europe the VW diesels are certified for RME fuel (biodiesel). The are clearly stating that in the specifications. RME = Rapeseed Methyl Esters. They don't like soy biodiesel. It's been thought that this is more political than anything else - Europe grows rapeseed, the US grows soy. But biodiesel is biodiesel is biodiesel. Which is what the EPA says with their substantial equivalence for all feedstocks, although the NBB only tested virgin soy biodiesel. But there could be more to it. Rachel Burton posted a link to Lyle's site and her report on a recent SVO workshop with Elsbett engineer Alexander Noack. It included this interesting bit: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. http://www.biofuels.coop/blog/archives/66.html Energy Blog: Elsbett Workshop Slightly different, but if you have a look at the new Euro standard for biodiesel, here: National standards for biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield2.html#biodstds See Europe EN 14214, scroll down to Oxidation stability hrs; 110¡C - 6 hours min. Only Europe has such a standard, and the concern is polymerisation due to oxidation. The Iodine No. standard is 120; others are lower, but the US ASTM D-6751 doesn't specify an IV. The higher the IV the more it's a drying oil that will polymerise, the highest being linseed and fish oil and the lowest coconut and palm kernel. For an explanation see: Iodine Values http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine So have a look at these Iodine Values: Rapeseed oil, h. eruc. - 97 to 105 Rapeseed oil, i. eruc. - 110 to 115 Soybean oil - 125 to 1 So. I think there's some substance to this, I'll find out more soon. Meeting the German or Austrian standard isn't difficult, but the Euro standard might be, especially if we think bubblewashing is a great idea. Might have to drop bubblewashing, go for simple stirring instead (and making the stuff properly in the first place). Might have to use an additive as well. And, might have to drop soy too. Something tells me the ASTM standard isn't about to adopt these Euro oxidation limits any time soon. Anyway, both VW and Mercedes seem to be going for Fischer Tropsch diesel from biomass. Perhaps the reason they prefer it to biodiesel might be that it gives them a nice industrial, high-tech, expensive operation to invest in, well beyond the reach of this shabby riff-raff that's taken to making biodiesel in their garages and now the whole thing's right out of corporate control. :-) Best Keith Hakan At 20:16 19/05/2004, you wrote: I have collected four testimonials to high-mileage VW Diesels that came up in discussion. I have seen many such testimonials over the years, but I have been meaning to make a few points in response to them. These came up recently, in response to reports that the two gasoline hybrids have not been getting as good mileage as they advertise. My comments are
Re: [biofuel] crossposting?
Hi MM CAFE standards worse now than 15 years ago, etc etc etc. It would be hard to find a better case for illustrating that all the wrong people are calling all the wrong tunes for all the wrong reasons. The more we all use the net to stay in touch with each other, the more transparent we can make this information, even if it gets a bit intricate. Indeed. It baffles me that some people take exception to cross-posting, what nonsense. Sure, you have to be judicious about it, but you have to be judicious with mailing lists anyway, don't you? Nothing wrong with cross-posting, quite the opposite. It sounds like you may have heard from some who don't like it. Regularly, but not very recently, come to think of it, or not here anyway, and not ever about you. Sorry if I gave you that impression. If I am doing it in a way that people don't like, then nobody has made me aware of this, recently. They could do so, politely, I think, in a way that might cause me to consider modifying some of it. I think it's just fine. What I have done over the years is, as you say, try to be judicious about it, basically giving things a relevancy test, and trying to BCC sometimes instead of cc'ing. The purpose of the BCC'ing in my view is to try not to develop too many incoherent conversations. Sometimes I forget to BCC, and this is when we see the crosspost, but lately I am moving more toward BCC'ing, but not to an absolute extent. Putting myelf in the position of the reader and not the poster, there are times when I find crossposting to some extent annoying, and times when I find it to some extent helpful. I sort of like to see, sometimes, for example, when it's a news post or a general initiation of a topic, where else the author is putting his thoughts. The times when I don't like it I guess might be when it becomes visually annoying with too many screwed up subject lines, and-or where the conversations do not connect to each other. Yes. There are problems with it, if a complex thread develops on more than one list, or threads branch, it can get confusing, and maybe annoying. It's hard to make rules, there are too many possibilities, so I leave it to those who do it to manage it as best they can. In this particular instance, the scales were clearly tipped in favor of passing on the info, because it is so valuable to me (and I assume, some others) to get some of the low-down from far-away lands as to what is going on in these worldwide-relevant activities. But this particular case was a special instance, as I was specifically directing people to this (biofuel) group. But maybe not only that. Anyway, there might not be any other way of assembling this kind of information, and it is valuable. The argument for crossposting is, I guess, partly the overall rule of erring on the side of getting the info out there to the people who might want to see it, even if it gets a bit sloppy sometimes and, in the opinion of some, uses a little too much bandwidth. I'd agree. But, that said, I do think there's a place for me and others to modify crossposting behaviour so that it conforms to principles that amount to good netiquette? Like what? Do you always say where they come from? Would that be difficult, useful, more polite? Dunno. I know that some folks hate crossposting and consider all crossposting poor netiquette. In that case, I'll just fail netiquette I guess. Yes, those are the ones I was referring to. Never mind, I'll happily fail it with you, though I don't do it a lot these days somehow. No more biofuels-biz list, partly. Not much time either, I mainly focus on this list now. But I'll listen to or read contrary opinions, and give them consideration. Fair enough. Don't stop anyway. Best Keith MM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Least Costly Cars To Own.... according to one study's methodology
Martin, Yah, well nothing should surprise you when you compare the prices in that list vs MSRP. $33 - $34 thousand for a Golf? Try $18,275 - $19,300 for a 2004, GL, TDI, 1.9 liter, Turbodiesel. I guess if they can escalate the value by 80% for their little list, they can manipulate anything else they like. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 1:41 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Least Costly Cars To Own according to one study's methodology murdoch wrote: According to this study's methodology, fuel efficiency is important, though obviously not the only factor. The top 5 cars include an assortment of approaches, including the Hybrid Prius, the Non-Hybrid Civic and the VW TDI. http://money.cnn.com/2004/05/18/pf/autos/efficient_cost_to_own/ I figured out the total cost [with their numbers] for 5 years. Cost to own includes insurance, fuel costs, maintenance and repairs and other costs + purchase price. I am puzzled by the fact that the Chevy Cavalier is not included, with a $10k base price and 47MPG highway. It gets better mileage than a Civic and costs less. Cost Make Model $28081 Toyota ECHO $28259 Honda Civic $29552 Scion xA $29768 Toyota Corolla $30985 Dodge Neon $31351 Scion xB $32466 Toyota Matrix $33301 Volkswagen Golf $33366 Volkswagen New Beetle $34504 Volkswagen Jetta $35195 Honda Civic Hybrid $35873 Honda Insight $36400 Pontiac Vibe $36641 Toyota Prius $37680 Toyota Celica Table for fuel costs [est. 5 year] fuel Make Model $2,406 Honda Insight $2,896 Toyota Prius $3,112 Volkswagen Golf $3,112 Volkswagen Jetta $3,112 Volkswagen New Beetle $3,122 Honda Civic Hybrid $3,746 Honda Civic $3,849 Toyota ECHO $4,156 Toyota Corolla $4,412 Scion xA $4,608 Pontiac Vibe $4,608 Toyota Matrix $4,810 Scion xB $4,995 Dodge Neon $4,995 Toyota Celica -- -- Martin Klingensmith http://infoarchive.net/ http://nnytech.net/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] re: weird gummy stuff
Hello Noam Keith, We did NOT end up with biodiesel. The consistancy is close to that of the original grease. I am unsure now what to do with the stuff. I think I didn't mix the lye/methanol enough and something reacted with the animal fat. What animal fat? Was this virgin oil or used oil? You say grease, but I'm never quite sure what Americans mean when they say grease. I'd assumed it was virgin oil, because it sounded like your first attempt. You did say you'd never seen the weird gummy stuff before, but it also seemed like you'd never mixed methoxide before. Though 5 gal is a bit much for a first attempt, 5 litres or even 1 would be better. If not virgin oil, how did you determine how much lye to use? Did you titrate the oil? Now I understand what you meant - I'd thought the gummy stuff appeared in the methoxide, which would have been a mystery, but it appeared after you added it to the oil. Yes, as Todd said, soap. What sort of processor did you use? How did you stir it? What temperature was it? How long did you agitate it for? How much methanol did you use? How much lye? I don't know. Reprocess the failed batch as if it were new oil. See: Biodiesel from new oil http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodnew Mix the methoxide as Todd suggests in his reply to you, as in the links I gave you previously: Methoxide the easy way http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html#easymeth More here: Mixing the methoxide http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#methmix And more here: Adding the methoxide http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor5.html#methadd If reprocessing doesn't work then you have heavily used WVO (used oil) with a high Free Fatty Acid level and you'll either have to learn how to titrate it for an accurate lye quantity, or, better for newcomers, abandon it and get better oil - and STILL learn how to titrate it for accurate lye quantities. You can find out all about that and much more at the link I gave you previously: Make your own biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html Check the links Noam. I did the same experiment with my 6th period class and it seemed turn out alright. I mixed methoxide in a plastic bucket with a mixer and by hand. Use a closed container, see the links above and Todd's message. I was scared of static electricity making a spark though and igniting the whole thing. Is this a danger? Is the methanol less volatile once you add the lye? Nope. Do it the Easy way. thanks, Noam Gundle Best Keith Hello, I made a 5 gallon batch today, and had a few problems. I tried to mix the methanol/lye in blenders, and it didn't work. The seals of the blenders must be shot, because the methanol leaked out. So we mixed the methoxide by hand in a large beaker (all done in my fume hood). I added the lye in two batches, with half the methanol/lye in each. When I went to add the second batch, there was this weird gummy stuff floating on top. It looked like tofu curds, or congealed something. It was creamy brown and broke apart when I poked it. I hesitated to remove it because i worried about upsetting the balance of lye. I did take out one small piece to try to identify it. I have NEVER seen this before. Has anyone else? Any advice? Also, when I blended the methanol/lye, the container got very hot. I immediately stopped it because I was worried about explosions. It got hot when I mixed it by hand too. Is this normal? I would appreciate any help anyone feels like offering. thanks, Noam Gundle [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Noam It does get hot, an exothermic reaction. Methoxide can be very unkind to blender seals. Best to keep the blender for test batch processing, mix the methoxide separately in an HDPE carboy or something similar. Here's the best way to mix it: Methoxide the easy way http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html#easymeth More here: Mixing the methoxide http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#methmix And more here: Adding the methoxide http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor5.html#methadd Simple 5-gallon processor: Journey to Forever See also: Make your own biodiesel http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html I don't know what the gummy stuff might have been. Anyway, did you end up with biodiesel? Best Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
