Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven totheworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of robert and benita Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 11:59 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work as proven totheworldby Shell Oil Company in 1973 Mike Pelly wrote: Sorry robert luis rabello but you are the one who is not reading here. Come back with some serious answers to address my questions so I can take you seriously. Hmm . . . I don't have a problem with that. It's the outlandish claim that vaporized gasoline can return hundreds of MPG in a REAL car that I disagree with. I never said this will get hundreds of MPGs in a real car. Those are not my words.. If we end up increasing hundreds of MPGs that would be nice but not something I'd expect. I have always contended that this is something we should be doing to increase the MPGS in real cars. If every car on earth got 10-15 more MPGs from this, That would be significant for me. This is what you've written in this forum? 10 - 15 more MPG can be done by making cars lighter and installing smaller engines. Hybrid drives are a step in the right direction, too. My hybrid Camry gets almost double the fuel economy of my Ranger, and both are of similar mass and displacement. And your point here is?? Are you getting anything of what I'm saying about vaporizing gasoline to increase fuel mileage? Yes robert luis rabello your camry hybrid gets better gas mileage than your truck. I imagine that is why you bought a camry in the first place. Just because you get a hybrid does not mean your fuel savings has hit the highest point it will go. You can vaporize the fuel or you can make it a plugin and either route will increase your Camry's gas mileage further. Just because you can not go to the store and buy one does not mean the technology is non-existent. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3060 (20080428) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3061 (20080428) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3061 (20080428) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engineswork asproventotheworldbyShell Oil Company in 1973
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of robert and benita Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 11:54 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engineswork asproventotheworldbyShell Oil Company in 1973 Mike Pelly wrote: You don't think cats are hot? Put your finger on one sometime and than let me know what you think. They have shields all over them for a good reason. They HAVE to be hot in order to work. They are very efficient at re-burning the hydrocarbon rich exhaust but why are we not working to improve vehicle fuel effeciency by burning this fuel properly the first time? Sigh . . . Carbon RICH exhaust? Hardly! We measure pollutants in parts per million or grams per kilometer, even before the catalytic convertor. There is very little unburned fuel leaving the combustion chamber. Why do we have to run engines a little bit rich? Under cruise conditions, most engines are set up to run lean. At idle, however, in order to improve quality they tend to run a few tenths or so below stoichometric. (This has greatly improved with the introduction of sequential injection.) Acceleration requires more power, and maximum power is made at around a 12.5:1 air / fuel ratio for gasoline. Acceleration enrichment pumps more fuel into the manifold, a small amount of which condenses on the (relatively) cool surface of the intake manifold. (This is all related to temperature and pressure.) After the acceleration event is over, that engine management system returns everything to a lean condition for cruise, and that wee bit of extra fuel eventually winds up getting burned. The computer is measuring the ratio of oxygen in the exhaust as a means of optimizing the air / fuel ratio and adjusting the intake pulse as required, but at low pulse ratios it's far harder to be completely precise because there are limitations to how narrow the injector pulse can be at a given rpm. Robert, till you are ready to step away from your ingrained thinking about injecting gasoline into an engine as a 'liquid' and start looking at introducing gasoline into the engine in a 'gaseous state' you'll continue to miss the point of this art. Yes you can throw your terms like 12.5/1 stoichometric and anything else you have related to liquid fuel injection and carburetion out as much as you want but your just confusing yourself. Gasoline vapor like propane vapor (and I cringe using this analogy because it is not 100% identical) have no problem mixing with the air and vaporized gasoline is far more flammable than liquid gasoline. Maybe the analogy of a car crash and gasoline tank explosion being much worse in a car with an empty tank of gasoline compared to one with a full tank, might help to illustrate this point. Vaporized gasoline is as different an art from gasoline fuel injection and carburetion as is diesel injection and spark ignited gas ignition. It's like comparing apples and fudge brownies. Mike What this means, in practical terms, is that in order to have a car that can accelerate and deal with traffic, it HAS to have acceleration enrichment. In addition, during warm-up it's necessary to inject extra fuel just to get the machine running! The variable nature of driving ensures that compromises between power and economy have to be made, and the catalytic covertor helps to even out those differences. But here, we're talking VERY small amounts of fuel--not enough to change economy by a factor of ten. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3060 (20080428) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3061 (20080428) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3061 (20080428) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives
Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines workasproventotheworldbyShell Oil Company in 1973
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 11:50 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines workasproventotheworldbyShell Oil Company in 1973 A good ICE engine might turn one third of the input energy to mechanical energy, one third to heat rejected to the water jacket, and one third to heat in the exhaust stream. This is a good point, thanks for helping me make my point. If a significant portion of the heat going to the exhaust system and the water jacket instead went to heating up the gasoline in the heat exchanger to a vaporous state, than we now can see where some of the increased work used to increase the vehicles fuel mileage is coming from. It's been a while since I studied the Carnot cycle but am I right in remembering that the closer one can bring the incoming temperature to that of the outgoing temperature, the more efficient the cycle becomes? That is basically what happens when your robbing exhaust heat to heat the gasoline in the heat exchanger/exhaust manifold. The other thing that happens is that the vaporous gasoline has a much easier time mixing with the in coming air in the intake manifold. Far better than liquid gasoline sprayed in at ambient temperatures. If we use a 100kW (mechanical) engine (about 130HP), that means that it is also giving out 100kW of heat to the exhaust, and 100kW to the cooling water. Would that not mean it is now a 300kW?3 times 100? If it is indeed possible to double the efficiency of the engine by burning unburned hydrocarbons, then we must assume that we have 100kW of energy in unburned hydrocarbons leaving the tailpipe as well. If all of that is burned in the catalytic converter, it would have to dissipate 100kW of heat, or send it off as an even hotter exhaust stream. In addition to the 100kW of waste heat sent off in the exhaust stream already. I just question whether the average cat is capable of dissipating 100kW of heat without getting seriously hot -- not just the 1500F or so that they run, but 4000F or such... Think about a regular stove burner which manages to get to 3,000F with just 1500 watts of heat. I don't have the numbers to prove this though. Z On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 12:36 PM, Mike Pelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You don't think cats are hot? Put your finger on one sometime and than let me know what you think. They have shields all over them for a good reason. They are very efficient at re-burning the hydrocarbon rich exhaust but why are we not working to improve vehicle fuel effeciency by burning this fuel properly the first time? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 10:21 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work asproventotheworldbyShell Oil Company in 1973 The biggest problem in their logic is that if the catalytic converter really was burning off a large percentage of unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust, it would have to be dissipating enormous amounts of heat-- and though they do run hot, they don't dissipate an equal amount of heat to the rest of the engine. Therefore, there simply is not that much unburned hydrocarbons to double the gas mileage of a car simply by increasing the combustion efficiency (either by hydrogen injection or gasoline vaporization or whatever). I do not have a clue what point you are trying to make. Can you take another stab at this one? I think you've just made my point for me. When I bring it up the first law of thermodynamics as a potential argument for why what you are proposing won't work, you don't understand it. Unless you can show me where I've drawn the energy boundries in my model in the wrong place, I simply don't think it's possible -- if regular automobiles were sending as much unburned hydrocarbons out the exhaust as you claim, the catalytic converters would be glowing bright red all the time (which, in a really out of wack car, they can do, but it's not normal). And, as far as high efficiency vehicles go, there was as college competition not too long ago, that I believe achieved 1700 miles per gallon on gasoline. For some little carbon fiber pod thing -- again, an impressive stunt, but not directly applicable to the behemoth automobiles that we drive around in reality (which as Robert pointed out, it part of the problem...) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Hey Mike. I'm a novice too but, for what it's worth, in my first 10 test
batches in a blender I have gotten a pretty substantial temperature increase
during mixing - between 10F and 20F increase depending on how long I mixed the
batch (from 25 to 45 minutes) and whether it was my first, 2nd or 3rd batch of
the evening (basically preheating the blender). In my first couple of batches
I tried to insulate the blender with a towel because I was worried that the
mixture would cool during blending. After I saw such significant temperature
gains, I took off the towel. I believe that the temperature increase is due to
friction of the blades - I don't know if it is an exothermic reaction.
As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated to
148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started processing, the
mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm processing 40 minutes
instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended on Journey-to-forever just because
I'm trying to ensure a complete reaction.
Hope that's useful.
Jim
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:49:05 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch
question Methanol shouldn't vaporize until 148.46 deg F assuming the
atmospheric pressure in you area is 760mmHg. That's the boiling point
of methanol. It starts to evaporate at much lower temperatures than that.
Temperature maintenance is one of the reasons we recommend a
mini-processor rather than a blender: You can use a spare blender, or,
better, make a simple Test-batch mini-processor.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html Another reason is
that processing in a blender doesn't scale up well to a full-sized
processor, blenders are too fast. Scaling up:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#scale Best Keith
Best, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL
PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Moran
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:46 PM To:
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org;
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
biodiesel test batch question I think (but I'm not sure) that
methanol will evaporate at 140, is that correct? If it is, then keeping
the temp below that would become very important too.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf
of Thomas Kelly Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 6:39 PM To:
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
biodiesel test batch question Mike, Test batches can be
difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide excellent
agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper temp. PET
bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation may be
inadequate. It is important to maintain temp even if you must
interupt agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the temp of 130F, blend for
5 minutes, check temp If necessary, carefully return the liquid to a
container to be heated. Return to blender and repeat 2 (3?) more
times I use a hot water bath for heating the mix. Do you have a pot
big enough to fit the blender pitcher into? The pot would contain hot
(~150F) water. Instead of pouring the hot mix back and forth you
could simply place the pitcher from the blender, with top on, into
the hot water bath to re-establish the 130F, blot dry and buzz it
again. I have returned to doing some test batches. I favor heating
the mix in a PET bottle that has a wide mouth with a twist
open/close top. Sport drink plastic bottles often have this feature.
This allows me to limit methanol evaporation while heating the mix.
I either twist the top to open while heating or I squeeze the bottle to
decrease volume of air before closing and heating. The wide mouth
and a funnel make it easy to add the liquid. I heat the mix in a hot
water bath. Good Luck, Tom- Original Message
- From: mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 3:57 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Hello
everyone, my first post i want to apologize if this has been
answered, but I have searched the archives and relevant sites
without finding a clear answer. I've been reading the j2f howto
for doing my first test batch with unused veg oil and a blender. I see
that I'm suppose to pre-heat the oil before starting the process
to 130 deg F, but everything else i read says I need to maintain that
temperature which isn't possible without moving the oil back to
another container that can be heated so I guess basically i'm
asking, is that temp (130) required for the reaction or does it
just aid in a faster reaction. Thanks Mike
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Mechanical agitation will increase the kinetic energy of the molecules thus
temperature.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of James Pfeiffer
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:27 PM
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org;
biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Hey Mike. I'm a novice too but, for what it's worth, in my first 10
test batches in a blender I have gotten a pretty substantial
temperature increase during mixing - between 10F and 20F increase
depending on how long I mixed the batch (from 25 to 45 minutes) and
whether it was my first, 2nd or 3rd batch of the evening (basically
preheating the blender). In my first couple of batches I tried to
insulate the blender with a towel because I was worried that the
mixture would cool during blending. After I saw such significant
temperature gains, I took off the towel. I believe that the
temperature increase is due to friction of the blades - I don't know if
it is an exothermic reaction.
As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was
heated to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started
processing, the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F.
I'm processing 40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended
on Journey-to-forever just because I'm trying to ensure a complete
reaction.
Hope that's useful.
Jim
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:49:05 +0900 To:
biofuel@sustainablelists.org From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Methanol
shouldn't vaporize until 148.46 deg F assuming the atmospheric
pressure in you area is 760mmHg. That's the boiling point of
methanol. It starts to evaporate at much lower temperatures than
that. Temperature maintenance is one of the reasons we recommend a
mini-processor rather than a blender: You can use a spare blender,
or, better, make a simple Test-batch mini-processor.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html Another reason
is that processing in a blender doesn't scale up well to a full-sized
processor, blenders are too fast. Scaling up:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#scale Best
Keith Best, Chris -Original Message- From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Steve Moran Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:46 PM To:
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org;
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
biodiesel test batch question I think (but I'm not sure) that
methanol will evaporate at 140, is that correct? If it is, then
keeping the temp below that would become very important too.
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of
Thomas Kelly Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 6:39 PM To:
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
biodiesel test batch question Mike, Test batches
can be difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide
excellent agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper
temp. PET bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation
may be inadequate. It is important to maintain temp
even if you must interupt agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the
temp of 130F, blend for 5 minutes, check temp If necessary,
carefully return the liquid to a container to be heated.
Return to blender and repeat 2 (3?) more times I use a hot
water bath for heating the mix. Do you have a pot big enough to fit
the blender pitcher into? The pot would contain hot (~150F)
water. Instead of pouring the hot mix back and forth you could simply
place the pitcher from the blender, with top on, into the hot
water bath to re-establish the 130F, blot dry and buzz it again.
I have returned to doing some test batches. I favor heating the
mix in a PET bottle that has a wide mouth with a twist
open/close top. Sport drink plastic bottles often have this
feature. This allows me to limit methanol evaporation while
heating the mix. I either twist the top to open while heating or I
squeeze the bottle to decrease volume of air before closing and
heating. The wide mouth and a funnel make it easy to add the liquid. I
heat the mix in a hot water bath. Good Luck, Tom
- Original Message - From: mike
[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent:
Monday, April 28, 2008 3:57 PM Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel test
batch question Hello everyone, my first post
i want to apologize if this has been answered, but I have searched
the archives and relevant sites without finding a clear answer.
I've been reading the j2f howto for doing my first test
batch with unused veg oil and a blender. I see that I'm suppose
to pre-heat the oil before starting the process to 130 deg F,
but everything else i read says I need to maintain that
temperature
Re: [Biofuel] Growdiesel International Summit, New Delhi, India
An International Summit on pond-weed? LOL! A hype-fest, methinks. Stakeholders and decision-makers will rub bespoke shoulders and self-esteems and be part of the loop. I have to agree with Denise: I've heard it said that the best salespeople are also some of the most gullible when it comes to buying into the hype on new products. A trillion dollar industry, hm. Not so sure about trillion-dollar algae, but organising these biofuels confabs is good business, and there are scores of them all the time all over the world these days. Maybe when the amount of biodiesel from algae that's actually being produced equals and exceeds the amount of ethanol consumed in all the cocktails downed after the biofuels confabs it'll have achieved an economically feasibly EROEI. :-) Best Keith September 17-19, 2008 Growdiesel International Summit, New Delhi, India Growdiesel Climate Care Council is pleased to invite you to the inaugural International Summit on Algae Biofuels to be held on 17th, 18th 19th September 2008 at New Delhi, India. The Summit is focused on next generation of Biofuels using Algae as main feedstock. The main objective of the Summit is to provide an improved up-to-date understanding of the next generation feedstocks and technologies in Algae Biofuel Industry. The Summit will be an excellent platform to gain and disseminate information regarding recent research, development and commercialization activities in the field of Algae, mass production systems, Photobioreactor technologies and other important areas of Algae Biofuel Industry. In view of Biofuels emerging as a trillion dollar futuristic industry, the summit shall bring out many value added opportunities for the entrepreneurs, investors, venture/PE companies, Renewable fuel Sector, co-organisers, speakers, industry experts and sponsors. The technical financial topics of the summit will cover the entire Algae Biofuel Industry. http://www.algaebiofuelsummit.com/ You are also requested to help us by forwarding this communication to your friends and colleagues who are active in this field. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Steve, Have your test batches passed the quality test? I do my test batches in a pot on a coleman stove out in the garage so I can maintain the temp. How do you agitate the mix? Is the processor an open pot? Tom - Original Message - From: Steve Moran [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question I do my test batches in a pot on a coleman stove out in the garage so I can maintain the temp. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mike Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:58 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Hello everyone, my first post i want to apologize if this has been answered, but I have searched the archives and relevant sites without finding a clear answer. I've been reading the j2f howto for doing my first test batch with unused veg oil and a blender. I see that I'm suppose to pre-heat the oil before starting the process to 130 deg F, but everything else i read says I need to maintain that temperature which isn't possible without moving the oil back to another container that can be heated so I guess basically i'm asking, is that temp (130) required for the reaction or does it just aid in a faster reaction. Thanks Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Jim,
As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated
to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started
processing, the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm
processing 40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended on
Journey-to-forever just because I'm trying to ensure a complete reaction.
Have you not gotten complete reactions on 1L test batches run at 130F
(or higher) in a blender for 20 - 30 minutes?
You are using new, unused veg oil?
Tom
- Original Message -
From: James Pfeiffer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org;
biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Hey Mike. I'm a novice too but, for what it's worth, in my first 10 test
batches in a blender I have gotten a pretty substantial temperature
increase during mixing - between 10F and 20F increase depending on how
long I mixed the batch (from 25 to 45 minutes) and whether it was my
first, 2nd or 3rd batch of the evening (basically preheating the
blender). In my first couple of batches I tried to insulate the blender
with a towel because I was worried that the mixture would cool during
blending. After I saw such significant temperature gains, I took off the
towel. I believe that the temperature increase is due to friction of the
blades - I don't know if it is an exothermic reaction.
As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated
to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started processing,
the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm processing
40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended on
Journey-to-forever just because I'm trying to ensure a complete reaction.
Hope that's useful.
Jim
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:49:05 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test
batch question Methanol shouldn't vaporize until 148.46 deg F
assuming the atmospheric pressure in you area is 760mmHg. That's
the boiling point of methanol. It starts to evaporate at much lower
temperatures than that. Temperature maintenance is one of the reasons
we recommend a mini-processor rather than a blender: You can use a
spare blender, or, better, make a simple Test-batch mini-processor.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html Another reason
is that processing in a blender doesn't scale up well to a full-sized
processor, blenders are too fast. Scaling up:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#scale Best
Keith Best, Chris -Original Message- From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:sustainablelorgbiofuel-bo
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Moran Sent: Monday,
April 28, 2008 4:46 PM To:
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org;
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
biodiesel test batch question I think (but I'm not sure) that
methanol will evaporate at 140, is that correct? If it is, then
keeping the temp below that would become very important too.
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of
Thomas Kelly Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 6:39 PM To:
sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel]
biodiesel test batch question Mike, Test batches can
be difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide excellent
agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper temp.
PET bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation may be
inadequate.
It is important to maintain temp even if you must interupt
agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the temp of 130F, blend for 5
minutes, check temp If necessary, carefully return the liquid to a
container to be heated. Return to blender and repeat 2 (3?)
more times I use a hot water bath for heating the mix. Do you
have a pot big enough to fit the blender pitcher into? The pot
would contain hot (~150F) water. Instead of pouring the hot mix
back and forth you could simply place the pitcher from the
blender, with top on, into the hot water bath to re-establish the
130F, blot dry and buzz it again. I have returned to doing some
test batches. I favor heating the mix in a PET bottle that has
a wide mouth with a twist open/close top. Sport drink plastic
bottles often have this feature. This allows me to limit methanol
evaporation while heating the mix. I either twist the top to open
while heatin
g or I squeeze the bottle to decrease volume of air before closing
and heating. The wide mouth and a funnel make it easy to add the
liquid. I heat the mix in a hot water bath. Good Luck,
Tom- Original Message - From: mike
Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines workasproventotheworldbyShell Oil Company in 1973
Mike Pelly wrote: The other thing that happens is that the vaporous gasoline has a much easier time mixing with the in coming air in the intake manifold. Far better than liquid gasoline sprayed in at ambient temperatures. If you look at modern gasoline fueled cars, most of them have fuel coolers in the return lines. Fuel is not injected into an engine at ambient temperatures, having been heated by residence time under the hood and close proximity to the head. Fuel injection timing and duration are altered by the measured temperature of the fuel, and efforts are made to keep the fluid from boiling. On the subject of injection, it's far easier to get deeper penetration of fuel into the airstream when you are injecting a liquid than a vapor. Vapor injection would have to be of a higher pressure to prevent a localized over-enriching near the point of injection and a fuel-lean condition in the airstream near the opposite wall of the duct. Higher pressures require more power to be generated. The other thing is that gasoline in a vaporous state will be more prone to knocking than gasoline in a liquid state. Compression ratio would need to be low, since there would be no liquid fuel to absorb the heat of compression and maintain a steady temperature below the autoignition temperature of gasoline within the chamber. Older engines were low compression to begin with, in some cases as low as 7:1, which would not pose this problem but limit the power and efficiency that can be extracted from the engine. Higher compression ratios lead to increased power -and- efficiency. --- If we use a 100kW (mechanical) engine (about 130HP), that means that it is also giving out 100kW of heat to the exhaust, and 100kW to the cooling water. Would that not mean it is now a 300kW?3 times 100? - No, because we label power outputs by what we can measure as mechanical work. A 100kW engine is able to give you 100kW of mechanical work. A 20% efficient 100kW engine puts out the exact same amount of mechanical work as a 40% efficient 100kW engine. -Kurt ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline
Mike Pelly wrote: Robert, till you are ready to step away from your ingrained thinking about injecting gasoline into an engine as a 'liquid' and start looking at introducing gasoline into the engine in a 'gaseous state' you'll continue to miss the point of this art. Ingrained thinking? Really now! Where does the extra energy you're claiming is present in vaporized gasoline come from, Mike? I'm not writing this for you, since you're clearly a true believer, but for the benefit of others on the list who might not understand what you're claiming. I know what you're writing about. Yes you can throw your terms like 12.5/1 stoichometric and anything else you have related to liquid fuel injection and carburetion out as much as you want but your just confusing yourself. I am not confused. I've built engines that run on both gasoline and propane, AND fuel injection systems--both of which work and have been reliable for years. Do you drive a vehicle with your own fuel injection system? I do. I know about what I'm writing from both theoretical and practical perspectives. Gasoline vapor like propane vapor (and I cringe using this analogy because it is not 100% identical) have no problem mixing with the air and vaporized gasoline is far more flammable than liquid gasoline. You can throw a lighted cigarette into a bucket of gasoline and it will simply extinguish. Throw the same cigarette into gasoline vapor and it will explode. Nobody is disputing this with you. What you don't understand is that there is no magic addition of energy in gasoline just because you've heated it up. There is a finite, measureable amount of energy available in a liter of gasoline, just as there is in propane, which enters the air / fuel charge as a vapor. Maybe the analogy of a car crash and gasoline tank explosion being much worse in a car with an empty tank of gasoline compared to one with a full tank, might help to illustrate this point. Vaporized gasoline is as different an art from gasoline fuel injection and carburetion as is diesel injection and spark ignited gas ignition. It's like comparing apples and fudge brownies. Mike I've heard all of this before. My sweetheart has a cousin whose father-in-law was really into gas vapor carburation, but he ALSO ran up against the undeniable fact that you don't add energy by heating up the fuel. It doesn't suddenly produce more energy just because it's a vapor, and further, the vast majority of the energy available in the fuel transforms into heat, noise and vibration in a combustion engine. We use the heat to drive pistons and create mechanical work, but about two thirds of that energy dissipates as heat into the block and exhaust system. (And heating the fuel will not significantly impact this fact.) You might use that heat to drive another process, such as air conditioning if you're clever, but if you want measureably greater efficiency at the wheels, you have to do something mechanical, such as squeezing the fuel harder (if possible). robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080429/e394e061/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
I've gotten one to pass a wash test, but I stopped with test batches until I get a more accurate scale. Its too hit or miss with the scale I have now. I use a drill with a hollow-wall molly anchor as a stirrer and use a piece of Velcro strap to keep the drill moving at a low speed. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Thomas Kelly Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 5:36 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Steve, Have your test batches passed the quality test? I do my test batches in a pot on a coleman stove out in the garage so I can maintain the temp. How do you agitate the mix? Is the processor an open pot? Tom - Original Message - From: Steve Moran [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:30 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question I do my test batches in a pot on a coleman stove out in the garage so I can maintain the temp. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mike Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 1:58 PM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Hello everyone, my first post i want to apologize if this has been answered, but I have searched the archives and relevant sites without finding a clear answer. I've been reading the j2f howto for doing my first test batch with unused veg oil and a blender. I see that I'm suppose to pre-heat the oil before starting the process to 130 deg F, but everything else i read says I need to maintain that temperature which isn't possible without moving the oil back to another container that can be heated so I guess basically i'm asking, is that temp (130) required for the reaction or does it just aid in a faster reaction. Thanks Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Hello Jim Hey Mike. I'm a novice too but, for what it's worth, in my first 10 test batches in a blender I have gotten a pretty substantial temperature increase during mixing - between 10F and 20F increase depending on how long I mixed the batch (from 25 to 45 minutes) and whether it was my first, 2nd or 3rd batch of the evening (basically preheating the blender). In my first couple of batches I tried to insulate the blender with a towel because I was worried that the mixture would cool during blending. After I saw such significant temperature gains, I took off the towel. I believe that the temperature increase is due to friction of the blades - I don't know if it is an exothermic reaction. As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started processing, the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm processing 40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended on Journey-to-forever just because I'm trying to ensure a complete reaction. So you're just guessing? Didn't you read this bit? Scaling up: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#scale I just posted that link, it's below, in the previous message. It discusses using the quality checks and tweaking the process to fine-tune it. The same applies to any processor, full-scale or mini or blender - for a blender just reduce the period between the samples, for instance. It says that in Make your first test batch, #6. Quality: For instance, different blenders and mini-processors have different shapes and different rates of agitation, and the processing time required for good process completion can vary accordingly. You might have to adjust it. Don't you guys do links? It's hyperlinked, it's not a book. It even explains how it works, though I'd have thought it superfluous: ... comment from a Biofuel list member: - Your website is very well done. I appreciate the layers of technical complexity. You have progressively more technical information layered in an escalating and logical fashion. I like the links as each new item is introduced, the user can click for more specific information on a topic and it opens in a new window. This eliminates the tediousness of having to constantly backtrack to where the new concept was introduced. -- from Make your own biodiesel What's next? It takes you right there: Make your own biodiesel Make your first test batch 6. Quality: Proceed to the wash-test and the methanol test to check the quality of your biodiesel. ... If the biodiesel doesn't pass the tests ... Here's what to do next. The Here's link takes you here: What should you do if your fuel doesn't pass the wash-test? See also How to use the quality tests, below. Scale up to larger batches. Tweaking the process. It's all there, but if you don't follow the links you'll only get a keyhole view. Best Keith Hope that's useful. Jim Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:49:05 +0900 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Methanol shouldn't vaporize until 148.46 deg F assuming the atmospheric pressure in you area is 760mmHg. That's the boiling point of methanol. It starts to evaporate at much lower temperatures than that. Temperature maintenance is one of the reasons we recommend a mini-processor rather than a blender: You can use a spare blender, or, better, make a simple Test-batch mini-processor. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor7.html Another reason is that processing in a blender doesn't scale up well to a full-sized processor, blenders are too fast. Scaling up: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html#scale Best Keith Best, Chris -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Moran Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 4:46 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question I think (but I'm not sure) that methanol will evaporate at 140, is that correct? If it is, then keeping the temp below that would become very important too. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Thomas Kelly Sent: Mon 4/28/2008 6:39 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Mike, Test batches can be difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide excellent agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper temp. PET bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation may be inadequate. It is important to maintain temp even if you must interupt agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the temp of 130F, blend for 5 minutes, check temp If necessary,
[Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines workasproventotheworldbyShell Oil Company in 1973
-Original Message- From: Mike Pelly [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 11:41 PM To: 'sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org' Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines workasproventotheworldbyShell Oil Company in 1973 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 11:50 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines workasproventotheworldbyShell Oil Company in 1973 A good ICE engine might turn one third of the input energy to mechanical energy, one third to heat rejected to the water jacket, and one third to heat in the exhaust stream. This is a good point, thanks for helping me make my point. If a significant portion of the heat going to the exhaust system and the water jacket instead went to heating up the gasoline in the heat exchanger to a vaporous state, than we now can see where some of the increased work used to increase the vehicles fuel mileage is coming from. It's been a while since I studied the Carnot cycle but am I right in remembering that the closer one can bring the incoming temperature to that of the outgoing temperature, the more efficient the cycle becomes? That is basically what happens when your robbing exhaust heat to heat the gasoline in the heat exchanger/exhaust manifold. The other thing that happens is that the vaporous gasoline has a much easier time mixing with the in coming air in the intake manifold. Far better than liquid gasoline sprayed in at ambient temperatures. If we use a 100kW (mechanical) engine (about 130HP), that means that it is also giving out 100kW of heat to the exhaust, and 100kW to the cooling water. Would that not mean it is now a 300kW?3 times 100? If it is indeed possible to double the efficiency of the engine by burning unburned hydrocarbons, then we must assume that we have 100kW of energy in unburned hydrocarbons leaving the tailpipe as well. If all of that is burned in the catalytic converter, it would have to dissipate 100kW of heat, or send it off as an even hotter exhaust stream. In addition to the 100kW of waste heat sent off in the exhaust stream already. I just question whether the average cat is capable of dissipating 100kW of heat without getting seriously hot -- not just the 1500F or so that they run, but 4000F or such... Think about a regular stove burner which manages to get to 3,000F with just 1500 watts of heat. I don't have the numbers to prove this though. Z On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 12:36 PM, Mike Pelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You don't think cats are hot? Put your finger on one sometime and than let me know what you think. They have shields all over them for a good reason. They are very efficient at re-burning the hydrocarbon rich exhaust but why are we not working to improve vehicle fuel effeciency by burning this fuel properly the first time? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zeke Yewdall Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 10:21 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines work asproventotheworldbyShell Oil Company in 1973 The biggest problem in their logic is that if the catalytic converter really was burning off a large percentage of unburned hydrocarbons in the exhaust, it would have to be dissipating enormous amounts of heat-- and though they do run hot, they don't dissipate an equal amount of heat to the rest of the engine. Therefore, there simply is not that much unburned hydrocarbons to double the gas mileage of a car simply by increasing the combustion efficiency (either by hydrogen injection or gasoline vaporization or whatever). I do not have a clue what point you are trying to make. Can you take another stab at this one? I think you've just made my point for me. When I bring it up the first law of thermodynamics as a potential argument for why what you are proposing won't work, you don't understand it. Unless you can show me where I've drawn the energy boundries in my model in the wrong place, I simply don't think it's possible -- if regular automobiles were sending as much unburned hydrocarbons out the exhaust as you claim, the catalytic converters would be glowing bright red all the time (which, in a really out of wack car, they can do, but it's not normal). And, as far as high efficiency vehicles go, there was as college competition not too long ago, that I believe achieved 1700 miles per gallon on gasoline. For some little carbon fiber pod thing -- again, an impressive stunt, but not directly applicable to the behemoth automobiles that we drive around in reality (which as Robert pointed out, it part of the problem...) ___ Biofuel mailing list
Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline engines workasproventotheworldbyShell Oil Company in 1973
as you claim, the catalytic converters would be glowing bright red all the time (which, in a really out of wack car, they can do, but it's not normal). And, as far as high efficiency vehicles go, there was as college competition not too long ago, that I believe achieved 1700 miles per gallon on gasoline. For some little carbon fiber pod thing -- again, an impressive stunt, but not directly applicable to the behemoth automobiles that we drive around in reality (which as Robert pointed out, it part of the problem...) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3060 (20080428) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3060 (20080428) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3060 (20080428) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080429/a58baffc/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Thanks Jim, that is very helpful and I'll be sure to monitor my temps closely as I blend. I thought maybe there was a chance that it would hold the same temp for that reason, but would never have guessed a temp increase. James Pfeiffer wrote: Hey Mike. I'm a novice too but, for what it's worth, in my first 10 test batches in a blender I have gotten a pretty substantial temperature increase during mixing - between 10F and 20F increase depending on how long I mixed the batch (from 25 to 45 minutes) and whether it was my first, 2nd or 3rd batch of the evening (basically preheating the blender). In my first couple of batches I tried to insulate the blender with a towel because I was worried that the mixture would cool during blending. After I saw such significant temperature gains, I took off the towel. I believe that the temperature increase is due to friction of the blades - I don't know if it is an exothermic reaction. As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started processing, the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm processing 40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended on Journey-to-forever just because I'm trying to ensure a complete reaction. Hope that's useful. Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Hey thanks everyone for the advice, I'll try the hot water bath idea and hope for the best, just hope I don't get it too hot and evaporate my methanol... I'd really like for my first test batch to come out good. As for my atmospheric pressure, im not sure what it is, but I live in NW FL so i'm pretty darn close to sea level. as a side note, it's really hard to reply when I have the mailing list set to digest mode lol. Thomas Kelly wrote: Test batches can be difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide excellent agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper temp. PET bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation may be inadequate. It is important to maintain temp even if you must interupt agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the temp of 130F, blend for 5 minutes, check temp If necessary, carefully return the liquid to a container to be heated. Return to blender and repeat 2 (3?) more times I use a hot water bath for heating the mix. Do you have a pot big enough to fit the blender pitcher into? The pot would contain hot (~150F) water. Instead of pouring the hot mix back and forth you could simply place the pitcher from the blender, with top on, into the hot water bath to re-establish the 130F, blot dry and buzz it again. Good Luck, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline enginesworkasproventotheworldbyShell Oil Company in 1973
I'm no 'gear-head' but, also to consider that there is approximate 18,000:1 ratio volumetric from liquid to vapor. Therefore, there could be some expected advantage to vaporizing the atomized (liquid) fuel inside the cylinder. The expansion of the gas alone may account for some energy/torque, while also using some of the available heat. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirk McLoren Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 2:15 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline enginesworkasproventotheworldbyShell Oil Company in 1973 Talk about grasping at straws. The most efficient conversion would be at the highest temperature. It is , after all, a HEAT engine. Unfortunately we have no commercial materials that can withstand a stoichiometric mix. An engine run with a stoichiometric mix first burns the exhaust valves and if it runs long enough devours the pistons as well. Hitlers boys researched an engine that ran red hot but never got it out of the lab. The best practical engine I know of is a Bourke. The Experimental Aircraft Association had and perhaps still publishes a paper about it. Had 50:1 compression for those that understand why. Kirk ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Bidets: Eliminate Toilet Paper, Increase Your Hygiene
We use 36.5 billions rolls of toilet paper in the U.S. each year, this represents at least 15 million trees pulped. This also involves 473,587,500,000 gallons of water to produce the paper and 253,000 tons of chlorine for bleaching purposes. The manufacturing process requires about 17.3 terawatts of electricity annually. Also, there is the energy and materials involved in packaging and transporting the toilet paper to households across the country. - http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/04/bidets_eliminat.php Bidets: Eliminate Toilet Paper, Increase Your Hygiene by Justin Thomas, Virginia on 04.28.08 Two years ago, I posted an article about bidets, and it generated a lot of healthy discussion. Since that time I've gathered more information on this topic, and I've been testing out a bidet for about three months. I now consider bidets to be a key green technology, because they eliminate the use of toilet paper. They also provide important health benefits. These include increased cleanliness, and the therapeutic effect of water on damaged skin (think rashes or hemorrhoids). But let's look at some figures on toilet paper usage: We use 36.5 billions rolls of toilet paper in the U.S. each year, this represents at least 15 million trees pulped. This also involves 473,587,500,000 gallons of water to produce the paper and 253,000 tons of chlorine for bleaching purposes. The manufacturing process requires about 17.3 terawatts of electricity annually. Also, there is the energy and materials involved in packaging and transporting the toilet paper to households across the country. Toilet paper also constitutes a significant load on the city sewer systems, and water treatment plants. It is also often responsible for clogged pipes. In septic systems, the elimination of toilet paper would mean the septic tank would need to be emptied much less often. Basically, the huge industry of producing toilet paper could be eliminated through the use of bidets. Instead of using toilet paper, a bidet cleans your posterior using a jet of water. Some bidets also provide an air-drying mechanism. In Japan, high-tech bidets called Washlets are now the most popular electronic equipment being sold -- 60% of households have them installed. In Venezuela they are found in approximately 90% of households. Many who commented on my first post on bidets were concerned about the electricity and water that bidets consume. However, it seems to me that the consumption is minimal, when compared to the amount of energy, water and chemicals consumed in the production of toilet paper. I'm sure that some of the high-tech bidets with heated seats (or the ones that speak to you in a calming voice) are wasteful, but there are also non-electric models available that are quite efficient. I have been testing a $50 bidet that attaches to my toilet. This model uses no electricity or hot water. After using a bidet, most people find cold water is fine, and not particularly shocking on one's rear. Occasionally, a few sheets of paper are needed to dry oneself. To avoid this, you could get a air-drying bidet that would eliminate toilet paper entirely. I am also interested in creating a toilet that combines a bidet with a composting sawdust toilet. Since these toilets can cope with urine, I'm sure they could cope with the small amount of water that a bidet produces. See the Composting Toilet Systems Book and Humanure Handbook for more information. This book is a good source of information on bidets: Everything There Is To Know, From The First and Only Book On The Bidet. The book discusses the different models of bidets, the health aspects and ecological benefits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Environmental Cost of Shipping Groceries Around the World
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/business/worldbusiness/26food.html?_r=1emex=1209355200en=24c7b0554935fcaaei=5087%0Aoref=slogin THE FOOD CHAIN Environmental Cost of Shipping Groceries Around the World By ELISABETH ROSENTHAL Published: April 26, 2008 Cod caught off Norway is shipped to China to be turned into filets, then shipped back to Norway for sale. Argentine lemons fill supermarket shelves on the Citrus Coast of Spain, as local lemons rot on the ground. Half of Europe's peas are grown and packaged in Kenya. In the United States, FreshDirect proclaims kiwi season has expanded to All year! now that Italy has become the world's leading supplier of New Zealand's national fruit, taking over in the Southern Hemisphere's winter. Food has moved around the world since Europeans brought tea from China, but never at the speed or in the amounts it has over the last few years. Consumers in not only the richest nations but, increasingly, the developing world expect food whenever they crave it, with no concession to season or geography. Increasingly efficient global transport networks make it practical to bring food before it spoils from distant places where labor costs are lower. And the penetration of mega-markets in nations from China to Mexico with supply and distribution chains that gird the globe - like Wal-Mart, Carrefour and Tesco - has accelerated the trend. But the movable feast comes at a cost: pollution - especially carbon dioxide, the main global warming gas - from transporting the food. Under longstanding trade agreements, fuel for international freight carried by sea and air is not taxed. Now, many economists, environmental advocates and politicians say it is time to make shippers and shoppers pay for the pollution, through taxes or other measures. We're shifting goods around the world in a way that looks really bizarre, said Paul Watkiss, an Oxford University economist who wrote a recent European Union report on food imports. He noted that Britain, for example, imports - and exports - 15,000 tons of waffles a year, and similarly exchanges 20 tons of bottled water with Australia. More important, Mr. Watkiss said, we are not paying the environmental cost of all that travel. Europe is poised to change that. This year the European Commission in Brussels announced that all freight-carrying flights into and out of the European Union would be included in the trading bloc's emissions-trading program by 2012, meaning permits will have to be purchased for the pollution they generate. The commission is negotiating with the global shipping organization, the International Maritime Organization, over various alternatives to reduce greenhouse gases. If there is no solution by year's end, sea freight will also be included in Europe's emissions-trading program, said Barbara Helferrich, a spokeswoman for the European Commission's Environment Directorate. We're really ready to have everyone reduce - or pay in some way, she said. The European Union, the world's leading food importer, has increased imports 20 percent in the last five years. The value of fresh fruit and vegetables imported by the United States, in second place, nearly doubled from 2000 to 2006. Under a little-known international treaty called the Convention on International Civil Aviation, signed in Chicago in 1944 to help the fledgling airline industry, fuel for international travel and transport of goods, including food, is exempt from taxes, unlike trucks, cars and buses. There is also no tax on fuel used by ocean freighters. Proponents say ending these breaks could help ensure that producers and consumers pay the environmental cost of increasingly well-traveled food. The food and transport industries say the issue is more complicated. The debate has put some companies on the defensive, including Tesco, Britain's largest supermarket chain, known as a vocal promoter of green initiatives. Some of those companies say that they are working to limit greenhouse gases produced by their businesses but that the question is how to do it. They oppose regulation and new taxes and, partly in an effort to head them off, are advocating consumer education instead. Tesco, for instance, is introducing a labeling system that will let consumers assess a product's carbon footprint. Some foods that travel long distances may actually have an environmental advantage over local products, like flowers grown in the tropics instead of in energy-hungry European greenhouses. This may be as radical for environmental consuming as putting a calorie count on the side of packages to help people who want to lose weight, a spokesman for Tesco, Trevor Datson, said. Better transportation networks have sharply reduced the time required to ship food abroad. For instance, improved roads in Africa have helped cut the time it takes for goods to go from farms on that continent to stores in Europe to 4 days,
[Biofuel] 'Sustainable' bio-plastic can damage the environment
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/apr/26/waste.pollution?gusrc=rssfeed=networkfront 'Sustainable' bio-plastic can damage the environment Corn-based material emits climate change gas in landfill and adds to food crisis * John Vidal, environment editor * The Guardian, Saturday April 26 2008 Supermarkets' efforts to find new compostable plastics bring environmental problems. Photograph: Linda Nylind The worldwide effort by supermarkets and industry to replace conventional oil-based plastic with eco-friendly bioplastics made from plants is causing environmental problems and consumer confusion, according to a Guardian study. The substitutes can increase emissions of greenhouse gases on landfill sites, some need high temperatures to decompose and others cannot be recycled in Britain. Many of the bioplastics are also contributing to the global food crisis by taking over large areas of land previously used to grow crops for human consumption. The market for bioplastics, which are made from maize, sugarcane, wheat and other crops, is growing by 20-30% a year. The industry, which uses words such as sustainable, biodegradeable, compostable and recyclable to describe its products, says bioplastics make carbon savings of 30-80% compared with conventional oil-based plastics and can extend the shelf-life of food. Concern centres on corn-based packaging made with polylactic acid (Pla). Made from GM crops, it looks identical to conventional polyethylene terephthalate (Pet) plastic and is produced by US company NatureWorks. The company is jointly owned by Cargill, the world's second largest biofuel producer, and Teijin, one of the world's largest plastic manufacturers. Pla is used by some of the biggest supermarkets and food companies, including Wal-Mart, McDonald's and Del Monte. It is used by Marks Spencer to package organic foods, salads, snacks, desserts, and fruit and vegetables. It is also used to bottle Belu mineral water, which is endorsed by environmentalists because the brand's owners invest all profits in water projects in poor countries. Wal-Mart has said it plans to use 114m Pla containers over the course of a year. While Pla is said to offer more disposal options, the Guardian has found that it will barely break down on landfill sites, and can only be composted in the handful of anaerobic digesters which exist in Britain, but which do not take any packaging. In addition, if Pla is sent to UK recycling works in large quantities, it can contaminate the waste stream, reportedly making other recycled plastics unsaleable. Last year Innocent drinks stopped using Pla because commercial composting was not yet a mainstream option in the UK. Anson, one of Britain's largest suppliers of plastic food packaging, switched back to conventional plastic after testing Pla in sandwich packs. Sainsbury's has decided not to use it, saying Pla is made with GM corn. No local authority is collecting compostable packaging at the moment. Composters do not want it, a spokesman said. Britain's supermarkets compete to claim the greatest commitment to the environment with plant-based products. The bioplastics industry expects rising oil prices to help it compete with conventional plastics, with Europe using about 50,000 tonnes of bioplastics a year. Concern is mounting because the new generation of biodegradable plastics ends up on landfill sites, where they degrade without oxygen, releasing methane, a greenhouse gas 23 times more powerful than carbon dioxide. This week the US national oceanic and atmospheric administration reported a sharp increase in global methane emissions last year. It is just not possible to capture all the methane from landfill sites, said Michael Warhurt, resources campaigner at Friends of the Earth. A significant percentage leaks to the atmosphere. Just because it's biodegradable does not mean it's good. If it goes to landfill it breaks down to methane. Only a percentage is captured, said Peter Skelton of Wrap, the UK government-funded Waste and Resources Action Programme. In theory bioplastics are good. But in practice there are lots of barriers. Recycling companies said they would have to invest in expensive new equipment to extract bioplastic from waste for recycling. If we could identify them the only option would be to landfill them, said one recycler who asked to remain anonymous. They are not wanted by UK recycling companies or local authorities who refuse to handle them. Councils are saying they do not want plastics near food collection. If these biodegradable [products] get into the recycling stream they contaminate it. It will get worse because the government is encouraging more recycling. There will be much more bioplastic around. Problems arise because some bioplastics are home compostable and recyclable. It's so confusing that a Pla bottle looks exactly the same as a standard Pet
Re: [Biofuel] Vaporized gasoline enginesworkasproventotheworldbyShell Oil Company in 1973
Andy Karpay wrote: I'm no 'gear-head' but, also to consider that there is approximate 18,000:1 ratio volumetric from liquid to vapor. Therefore, there could be some expected advantage to vaporizing the atomized (liquid) fuel inside the cylinder. The expansion of the gas alone may account for some energy/torque, while also using some of the available heat. That's one advantage obtained by direct injection. Otherwise, the expanded liquid merely displaces some of the air in the mixture, resulting in loss of power. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
Hello Mike Hey thanks everyone for the advice, I'll try the hot water bath idea and hope for the best, just hope I don't get it too hot and evaporate my methanol... I'd really like for my first test batch to come out good. As for my atmospheric pressure, im not sure what it is, but I live in NW FL so i'm pretty darn close to sea level. as a side note, it's really hard to reply when I have the mailing list set to digest mode lol. Hard to follow the discussions too. You should try this: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg21651.html Best way to handle mailing lists, and any email. Best Keith Thomas Kelly wrote: Test batches can be difficult .. well worth the effort. Blenders provide excellent agitation, but it is difficult to maintain the proper temp. PET bottles allow one to maintain temp better, but agitation may be inadequate. It is important to maintain temp even if you must interupt agitation. Suggestion: Achieve the temp of 130F, blend for 5 minutes, check temp If necessary, carefully return the liquid to a container to be heated. Return to blender and repeat 2 (3?) more times I use a hot water bath for heating the mix. Do you have a pot big enough to fit the blender pitcher into? The pot would contain hot (~150F) water. Instead of pouring the hot mix back and forth you could simply place the pitcher from the blender, with top on, into the hot water bath to re-establish the 130F, blot dry and buzz it again. Good Luck, Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
I was just gonna take it out of digest mode and have everything from this list go straight to a folder that I just made but I think that's basically what the link is saying to do, so thanks :) Keith Addison wrote: div class=moz-text-flowed style=font-family: -moz-fixedHello Mike Hey thanks everyone for the advice, I'll try the hot water bath idea and hope for the best, just hope I don't get it too hot and evaporate my methanol... I'd really like for my first test batch to come out good. As for my atmospheric pressure, im not sure what it is, but I live in NW FL so i'm pretty darn close to sea level. as a side note, it's really hard to reply when I have the mailing list set to digest mode lol. Hard to follow the discussions too. You should try this: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg21651.html Best way to handle mailing lists, and any email. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize! http://www.gowindowslive.com/Mobile/Landing/Messenger/Default.aspx?Locale=en-US?ocid=TAG_APRIL -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080428/58225dbc/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Make i'm yours. Create a custom banner to support your cause. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Contribute/Default.aspx?source=TXT_TAGHM_MSN_Make_IM_Yours -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080429/26f4de97/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Environmental Cost of Shipping Groceries Around the World
, fisheries and forestry, said that carbon footprinting and labeling food miles - the distance food has traveled - was nothing more than protectionism. Shippers have vigorously fought the idea of levying a transportation fuel tax, noting that if some countries repealed those provisions of the Chicago Convention, it would wreak havoc with global trade, creating an uneven patchwork of fuel taxes. It would also give countries that kept the exemption a huge trade advantage. Some European retailers hope voluntary green measures like Tesco's labeling - set to begin later this year - will slow the momentum for new taxes and regulations. The company will begin testing the labeling system, starting with products like orange juice and laundry detergent. Customers may be surprised by what they discover. Box Fresh Organics, a popular British brand, advertises that 85 percent of its vegetables come from the British Midlands. But in winter, in its standard basket, only the potatoes and carrots are from Britain. The grapes are South African, the fennel is from Spain and the squash is Italian. Today's retailers could not survive if they failed to offer such variety, Mr. Moorehouse, the British food consultant, said. Unfortunately, he said, we've educated our customers to expect cheap food, that they can go to the market to get whatever they want, whenever they want it. All year. 24/7. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080429/e29fdd45/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] american Trucks
i have an 06 duramax(isuzu ) chevrolet that runs great on b100just remember to be ready to change your filters more frequently for a bit as the bio will clean out any gunk that has accumulated in the tank and lines especially on older trucksi am now running a lot of my construction equip on bio and having good luck with cat cummins ford and isuzu engines new and old regards kelly Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2008 14:32:45 -0600 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] american Trucks Most of the diesel mechanic's I've talked to only recommend the cummins engines, which means the dodge trucks, or the F550 and larger Fords. They also don't recommend using biodiesel, for the most part As far as running on biodiesel, I think that just about all of the older ones are compatible -- only the very newest ones with the high pressure common rail systems have reported any problems that I am aware of. The new ones are very nice though... I have a friend with a 2008 Ram 3500, and it barely sounds like a diesel any more, and has enormous amounts of torque (it slows down a bit coming up the last hill to my house when pulling the tandem axle trailer fully loaded firewood or a skidsteer or such... but that same hill easily drops my old car into 2nd gear too.). The very old ones are the best if you want to do SVO since they're not as picky on fuel... I know there are particular years and pumps that handle it better than others, but I don't have the experience to know for sure. In Canada, I'd recommend a two tank SVO type system just to run biodiesel... just here in Colorado I have to switch to B20 in the winter or I get gelling pretty bad (mitsubishi pickup) at temps below 25F (which is often the high temp for the day) Z On Mon, Apr 28, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Fritz Friesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, a friend of mine wants to buy a 250 Pickup to pull a 5.whealer trailer What model should he look for to be able to run on BD.We think to look for a 2tank system.Up here in Canada we have very cold winters Thanks for your help Fritz -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080428/e4c0a8af/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game. http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080430/6e5e8393/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
your temps are getting very close to where the methanol will start to boil not something you want to happen,,, esp in your kitchen(been there) incomplete reaction,, boiling mess to clean up not pretty kelly Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:33:58 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question Thanks Jim, that is very helpful and I'll be sure to monitor my temps closely as I blend. I thought maybe there was a chance that it would hold the same temp for that reason, but would never have guessed a temp increase. James Pfeiffer wrote: Hey Mike. I'm a novice too but, for what it's worth, in my first 10 test batches in a blender I have gotten a pretty substantial temperature increase during mixing - between 10F and 20F increase depending on how long I mixed the batch (from 25 to 45 minutes) and whether it was my first, 2nd or 3rd batch of the evening (basically preheating the blender). In my first couple of batches I tried to insulate the blender with a towel because I was worried that the mixture would cool during blending. After I saw such significant temperature gains, I took off the towel. I believe that the temperature increase is due to friction of the blades - I don't know if it is an exothermic reaction.As I write this email, I'm running another test batch. the oil was heated to 148F before putting it into a cold blender. When I started processing, the mixture was 122F and 42 minutes later it is at 145F. I'm processing 40 minutes instead of the 20 to 30 minutes recommended on Journey-to-forever just because I'm trying to ensure a complete reaction.Hope that's useful.Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Back to work after baby–how do you know when you’re ready? http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498ocid=T067MSN40A0701A -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080430/db2d4023/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Express yourself wherever you are. Mobilize! http://www.gowindowslive.com/Mobile/Landing/Messenger/Default.aspx?Locale=en-US?ocid=TAG_APRIL -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080428/58225dbc/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Make i'm yours. Create a custom banner to support your cause. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Contribute/Default.aspx?source=TXT_TAGHM_MSN_Make_IM_Yours -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080429/26f4de97/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ Back to work after baby–how do you know when you’re ready? http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498ocid=T067MSN40A0701A -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080430/c5553513/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Bidets: Eliminate Toilet Paper, Increase Your Hygiene
On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am also interested in creating a toilet that combines a bidet with a composting sawdust toilet. Since these toilets can cope with urine, I'm sure they could cope with the small amount of water that a bidet produces. See the Composting Toilet Systems Book and Humanure Handbook for more information. Composting toilets actually have a bit of trouble dealing with urine, especially the small self contained units. Too much liquid drowns them and makes them go anerobic instead of aerobic. This is why most of them have electric heaters in them... the non heated ones that only have a vent fan to aid in evaporation can handle a much lower loading than the ones with heaters. Now.. there is no reason that you couldn't use a solar thermal system to aid in the heating and evaporation instead of an electric heater... but I know that too much liquid can be a problem. I still think that a bidet would be good to avoid using so much paper. In africa I used a little tea pot of water, and it was fine. For my current situation, in the winter the outhouse is well below freezing most of the time, so it might get a bit frozen up. but perhaps I could think of a way to incorporate a solar thermal system on there too... Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Environmental Cost of Shipping Groceries Around the World
Hello Josh More new taxes disquised as a 'tool' to help the environment. Global warming is the greatest thing that has happened for government revenue since World War II; people now 'demand' to be taxed in the name of saving the world. I read the following quote from the article as saying Europeans, the most taxed people on earth, will be taxed even more. Why are we so scared to let markets sort this out? Um, you didn't notice that the markets have just driven yet another 100 million people into starvation? They're not markets, they're casinos. The Europeans do a lot better than Americans do, in a lot of ways, as Dean Baker for instance keeps pointing out - better pay, better working conditions, healthcare that actually works, healthier economies, healthier environment, much less poverty, even their elections usually work, their media actually make an attempt to do their job sometimes, and there's only a fraction of the per capita spin production, it's generally much less of a corporate fiefdom. It's been said that the difference between Europe and the US is that the European governments are frightened of their people, but in the US the people are frightened of their government (and so is everyone else!). There could be something to that. As fuel gets more expensive, this incentive to ship overseas will disappear on its own. Why is fuel getting more expensive? The divine invisible hand at work? Pickpockets also have invisible hands. I'm amused at all the analysts pontificating about soaring oil prices who're saying the high prices are proof of the Peak Oil theory, while it's hard to find any link between the rising prices and anything to do with supply and demand, and there's no apparent evidence of either shrinking supplies or rising costs. Market forces, LOL! Best Keith Interesting that all of these governments are not suggesting that the domestic taxes be DROPPED to make local food more competitive- they want import taxes INCREASED. The European Union has led the world in proposals to incorporate environmental costs into the price consumers pay for food. - Original Message From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, 30 April, 2008 4:47:52 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Environmental Cost of Shipping Groceries Around the World http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/26/business/worldbusiness/26food.html?_r=1emex=1209355200en=24c7b0554935fcaaei=5087%0Aoref=slogin THE FOOD CHAIN Environmental Cost of Shipping Groceries Around the World By ELISABETH ROSENTHAL Published: April 26, 2008 Cod caught off Norway is shipped to China to be turned into filets, then shipped back to Norway for sale. Argentine lemons fill supermarket shelves on the Citrus Coast of Spain, as local lemons rot on the ground. Half of Europe's peas are grown and packaged in Kenya. In the United States, FreshDirect proclaims kiwi season has expanded to All year! now that Italy has become the world's leading supplier of New Zealand's national fruit, taking over in the Southern Hemisphere's winter. Food has moved around the world since Europeans brought tea from China, but never at the speed or in the amounts it has over the last few years. Consumers in not only the richest nations but, increasingly, the developing world expect food whenever they crave it, with no concession to season or geography. Increasingly efficient global transport networks make it practical to bring food before it spoils from distant places where labor costs are lower. And the penetration of mega-markets in nations from China to Mexico with supply and distribution chains that gird the globe - like Wal-Mart, Carrefour and Tesco - has accelerated the trend. But the movable feast comes at a cost: pollution - especially carbon dioxide, the main global warming gas - from transporting the food. Under longstanding trade agreements, fuel for international freight carried by sea and air is not taxed. Now, many economists, environmental advocates and politicians say it is time to make shippers and shoppers pay for the pollution, through taxes or other measures. We're shifting goods around the world in a way that looks really bizarre, said Paul Watkiss, an Oxford University economist who wrote a recent European Union report on food imports. He noted that Britain, for example, imports - and exports - 15,000 tons of waffles a year, and similarly exchanges 20 tons of bottled water with Australia. More important, Mr. Watkiss said, we are not paying the environmental cost of all that travel. Europe is poised to change that. This year the European Commission in Brussels announced that all freight-carrying flights into and out of the European Union would be included in the trading bloc's emissions-trading program by 2012, meaning permits will have to be purchased for the pollution they generate. The commission is negotiating with the global shipping organization, the International Maritime
Re: [Biofuel] biodiesel test batch question
I was just gonna take it out of digest mode and have everything from this list go straight to a folder that I just made Much better. Best Keith but I think that's basically what the link is saying to do, so thanks :) Keith Addison wrote: div class=moz-text-flowed style=font-family: -moz-fixedHello Mike Hey thanks everyone for the advice, I'll try the hot water bath idea and hope for the best, just hope I don't get it too hot and evaporate my methanol... I'd really like for my first test batch to come out good. As for my atmospheric pressure, im not sure what it is, but I live in NW FL so i'm pretty darn close to sea level. as a side note, it's really hard to reply when I have the mailing list set to digest mode lol. Hard to follow the discussions too. You should try this: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg21651.html Best way to handle mailing lists, and any email. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
