Re: [Biofuel] Merry Christmas!
Keith, The same to you and My wishes that you will have a Happy 2010 Hakan At 09:21 PM 12/24/2009, you wrote: Best wishes to everyone who's celebrating today. Peace and goodwill to all mankind, and to all womankind too, and to every other kind as well. All best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ http://linkslujo.com/ and http://lujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 (skype) Tel. Sweden +46 (0)416 511215 (svansjo) Skype user hakanfalk [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] New el cheapo VW commuter car
This is not a new concept and maybe it is time for it again. Since I have the years, I do remember the 1950´s and the three wheel Messerschmidth that a friend of mine had and which I tried a few times. The VW concept is a modern version of it, It was also an other one in this class, forgot the name. like a bubble with the whole front as door. I drove that one too. Both of those cars were out competed by the VW Beetle, so it is quite a full circle, when VW now is working on a new concept car like this. Hakan At 07:50 AM 5/13/2009, you wrote: There are a couple of things that bother me about this. 1. If it's aimed at China it is intended to replace not a full-size American pick-up truck but a bicycle. That is to say, it is intended to increase dependence on motor vehicles in a context that has survived on bicycles and feet for a long time: though my suspicion is that that state of affairs was hitherto maintained through force rather than sound spatial planning. But even then, is it not better to introduce sound spatial planning to suit the bicycles, rather than cars to suit the unsound spatial planning? 2. That level of aerodynamic efficiency etc. rather suggests high-speed movement along roads of very good quality. How suitable is this vehicle for bad roads? How suitable is this vehicle for roads intended primarily for pedestrians, bicycles, hand-carts, animal-drawn carts, etc. because there aren't enough motor vehicles to warrant special high-speed roads? Or must one increase the vehicle fleet in order to justify the roads in order to justify this paragon of efficiency vehicle? It's the same problem I have with the Aptera: the whole business of aerodynamics for efficiency is overblown and misplaced. It's making the problem big enough to suit the solution, rather than small enough not to need a solution. 3. Where does the pig go? Where does the bolt of cloth go? Where does M. Boulanger's basket of eggs go, if it was a very large basket he had in mind? This vehicle seems aimed primarily at moving one or two people with briefcases a fairly long distance, regularly, at a fairly high speed, between a place of residence and another place where one does something more or less senseless in order to get money to pay for the vehicle, among other things. Is it desirable to introduce this pattern where it does not exist? Is it desirable to turn almost-peasants into wage-slave commuters, when the system of economy that supports that pattern is the very cause of the problem this vehicle purports to solve? If the almost-peasants were instead to become proper peasants, true yeomen, the problem would virtually go away. Best regards Dawie Coetzee From: bmolloy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 3:03:20 Subject: [Biofuel] New el cheapo VW commuter car Has anyone heard of the new single seat VW? This is not a toy, not a concept car. It is a fully developed, single-seat car in a highly aerodynamic tear-shaped, road-proven and very practical commuter vehicle format. The new Veedub will go on sale in Shanghai in 2010. Designed to cruise at 100-120 Km/Hr it has an incredible consumption of 0.99litre/100Km (258 miles/gallon), thus in terms of fuel bettering the electric car. The vehicle took three years from conception to production. The company is headquartered in Hamburg, Germany. The car will sell for 4000 yuan, equivalent to US$600. Gas tank capacity 1.7 gallons;Speed 62-74.6 Miles/hour; Fuel efficiency 258 miles/gallon; travel distance with a full tank 404 miles. I have pics which show a very impressive, aerodynamically efficient vehicle, not at all cheap in appearance. Sadly can't post them here due to the site's formatting restrictions but will supply to anyone who emails me directly. Regards, Bob. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090512/bc3fb5b7/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090513/5688a509/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ http
Re: [Biofuel] Eyeless in Gaza
, blockade them, starve them, then maybe you shouldn't be so picky about the kind of resistance they still manage to come up with. Also, Hamas kept to the ceasefire, Israel broke it, twice. You can't apply the same argument to Hamas's crude and remarkably undeadly backyard rockets as to Israel's multi-billion-dollar US-supplied high-tech military blitzkrieg. It's clear that both sides are using violence as a justification for further violence. I don't agree with that either. Did you read the whole of Mike Whitney's article? Did you read what Meshaal said? That's been fairly consistent. Check it out. This is a very difficult issue! What makes it all the more difficult is that those with the power refuse to acknowledge the basic truths of the situation, which goes back more than 60 years, to Nakba, and beyond. What It Was Like Being Forced to Leave Palestine 60 Years Ago By Suzanne Manneh, New America Media January 13, 2009 http://www.alternet.org/story/119369/ Occupation 101 Award-winning documentary film on the root causes of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21734.htm And so on. Did you check the links Bob provided? One Israeli settler leader recently argued during a conversation with a visiting American peace activist that 'if it was right to commit genocide during Biblical time, why can't it be right to commit genocide now. Has God changed his mind,' the settler wondered sarcastically. God permitted the genocide of those days because the people lacked faith to let him handle the situation differently. Their hearts were hard set to conquer by their own strength, and as a result, the ancient Hebrews lost their own sons in battle. God had told Moses: I will send my angel ahead of you, and also: I will drive out the Canaanites with hornets, but slowly, so the land will not become wild. That's in the plain text of the scriptures, so I don't buy the argument that God is somehow pleased with the slaughtering of civilians. Israeli peace activist and author Uri Avnery has an expression for this type of thinking. He calls it moral insanity, a sociopathic disorder. Well said, Uri. Indeed! One can justify all manner of madness in an effort to sanitize the moral failings of human behavior. Or rather of inhuman behaviour, don't you mean? Unless you'd say sociopathic disorder is the human norm, which obviously it's not. All best Keith robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice The Long Journey New Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 (skype) Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Technology and the poor
on. HTH - best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 (skype) Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How To Legally Avoid Unwanted Immunizations OfAll Kinds
the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 (skype) Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] How To Legally Avoid Unwanted Immunizations Of All Kinds
such shilly-shallying. Invariably, once they discover you are adamant and acquainted with the state law, your waiver will be rapidly forthcoming. An Acknowledgment The greatest part of the material on the first four pages is taken from the work of Mrs. Grace Girdwain, of Burbank, Illinois. Our staff has rearranged and edited the information, but we wish the full credit for its existence to go to this courageous woman who has for twelve years worked arduously, without compensation, to help her fellow Americans obtain their legal rights. The following is an example of the state of Illionois law (where I live) relating to immunizations. Illinois, like most states has no philosophical objection, but does have a religious one. Illinois Administrative Code Title 77: Public Health Chapter I: Department of Public Health Subchapter i: Maternal and Child Health Part 665 Child Health Examination Code Subpart E: Exceptions Section 665.510 Objection of Parent or Legal Guardian Parent or legal guardian of a student may object to health examinations, immunizations, vision, and hearing screening tests, and dental health examinations for their children on religious grounds. If a religious objection is made, a written and signed statement from the parent or legal guardian detailing such objections must be presented to the local school authority. General philosophical or moral reluctance to allow physical examinations, immunizations, vision and hearing screening, and dental examinations will not provide a sufficient basis for an exception to statutory requirements. The parent or legal guardian must be informed by the local school authority of measles outbreak control exclusion procedures per IDPH rules. The Control of Communicable Diseases (77 Ill. Adm. Code 690) at the time such objection is presented. Section 665.520 Medical Objections a) Any medical objections to an immunization must be: 1) Made by a physician licensed to practice medicine in all its branches indicating what the medical condition is. 2) Endorsed and signed by the physician on the certificate of child health examination and placed on file in the child*s permanent record. b) Should the condition of the child later permit immunization, this requirement will then have to be met. Parents or legal guardians must be informed of measles outbreak control exclusion procedures when such objection is presented per Section 665.510. (http://www.papercut.biz/emailStripper.htm) Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 (skype) Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 (skype) Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] 7 myths of energy independence
Bob, No problems, but it does not really prove anything. Average life expectancy have nearly doubled since the first world war, in almost all countries. One of the major reasons is the discovery of antibiotics. The whole picture of the reasons of death, have change so much. So your statement about life expectancy is a non starter, even if your are right on the issue. The use of electricity, or for the argument all energy, have gone up many times. This also goes for transportation by means of electricity, even if a lot of it went underground. Our exposure to EMFs has risen enormously, so with the rise of average life span, it might be good for us and it was a period where they sold equipments for EMF treatments. LOL Hakan At 08:36 AM 4/27/2008, you wrote: EMFs promote cancer? What explanation then for three generations of city commuters - from before the First World War until well into the 1960s - that worldwide (we're talking multiples of millions of people here) travelled daily on electric trams and trolley buses, vehicles which require heavy kilowatt hour usage to transport large loads with consequent massive EMFs? Also what of the drivers and conductors who manned them day and daily for all of their working lives, retiring in good health with every expectation of long life? No reports of massive cancer surges during that period, certainly not until the 70s - by which time most electrically driven commuter transport had been phased out in favour of C02 belching combustion engines - when the rise in incidence was attributed to other environmental agencies. Do you have sources, surveys, chapter and verse to back your claim? If so, please fill me in, I'm confused. Regards, Bob. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Francene McClintock Sent: Sunday, 27 April 2008 4:52 a.m. To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] 7 myths of energy independence I own a 2003 Prius. Get an EMF meter and see the electromagnetic fields you and your passengers are sitting in. Those cars are dangerous. EMFs promote cancer. Children are especially suseptible. -- Want an e-mail address like mine? Get a free e-mail account today at www.mail.com! -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080426/7efd7e54/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1399 - Release Date: 26/04/2008 2:17 p.m. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.5/1399 - Release Date: 26/04/2008 2:17 p.m. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080427/8d66f806/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Mobil. +34 609 30 47 35 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 (skype) Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Confessions of an 'ex' Peak Oil believer
They might know, but they out source the investigations, so it is possible that CIA and/or oil companies knows more than the actual owner countries. Hakan At 12:52 PM 3/5/2008, you wrote: Or maybe they know it get's re-filled by mother earth and so don't want to divulge the information. Not that I'm convinced yet that this is the process. Alan Petrillo wrote: As Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute http://www.rmi.org/ has pointed out, 94% of the world's petroleum reserves are owned by countries which consider them national secrets, and hold their information close to the chest. For this reason we don't really know with any degree of accuracy just how much oil there is out there. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Mobil. +34 609 30 47 35 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 (skype) Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Confessions of an 'ex' Peak Oil believer
Ltd.. To contact: www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net. His most recent book, forthcoming with Global Research, is Seeds of Destruction, The Hidden Agenda of Genetic Manipulation. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080302/55db3a63/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Mobil. +34 609 30 47 35 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 (skype) Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic - More on the Holocaust if you can stand it.
Chris, For every Jew It was rather for every 8-10 Jews. I think that you got the numbers a bit wrong and the timing, but you are right, let us not forget that the final solution included the homosexual and mentally impaired. The Slavs (Ziguener, Gipsy) I did mention earlier. The communists not only had a place to go to, but recognized that they were targeted much earlier and escaped in large numbers. It was also easier for them, because they were often poor workers that did not have any possessions to try to protect. Many of them were already engaged in Spain and Finland and I doubt that it was many infants and elderly people among them. *itler did have a cooperation agreement with *talin, up to 1940, and they fought together in Finland 1938 and against each other 1941. I have photographic proof of this, since my parents were voluntaries in Finland as physician and nurse in both wars and my father took both 8 mm films and photos from the front. Hakan At 10:40 AM 10/18/2007, you wrote: there seems little doubt that a reality check is way overdue for this issue. we mustn't forget that for every jew who died in the camps, there was a leftist or slav or homosexual who also died. in fact, the whole machinery of rounding people up into camps started with communists, socialists, and the heterosexually and mentally impaired. so, the holocaust as a genocide against the jews? highly open to question, imho. On 10/17/07, Guag Meister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Hakan ; but the number of human corps laying around and later also excavated, Well, no one is denying that war is a terrible thing, and that there were many corpses lying around, but possibly they were caused by starvation and disease due to relentless Allied bombings of supply routes for food? How does eye witness accounts of many corpses lying around during a time of war translate into a coordinated plot for extinction? be upset about what you are saying and consider you as a dangerous person. Sorry to hear that. If you consider me to be a dangerous person, then I am afraid to think of what you consider Fred Leuchter. He is the one who testified as an expert witness, not me. Best Regards, Peter G. Thailand __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Mobil. +34 609 30 47 35 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 or 693 60 92 (skype) Mobil +46 (0)70-520 68 44 Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Off Topic - More on the Holocaust if you can stand it.
the centuries who have given their lives for freedom, among whom we number the unforgettable Mr. Zundel. Ernst Zundel was keelhauled to Germany by the government of Canada after a star chamber proceeding. He was immediately arrested upon arrival in Germany. His crime? He has the wrong opinions! I hope the Arabs and Muslims are watching this case and learning that, when it comes to Judaism and Zionism, there is no genuine free speech or democracy in the West. It is all hypocrisy. Condoleeza Rice and George Bush are happy to see Zundel go to prison for his opinions and beliefs, yet they presume to lecture China and Iran about freedom. Don't believe these liars and fakers for a minute! Write to: Ernst Zundel , JVA - Mannheim, D-68169 Mannheim, Herzogenried Strasse, 111 Germany The Great Holocaust Trial a 65 minute documentary film about the 1985 trial, edited by Michael Hoffman from more than 100 hours of TV news coverage, is available on VHS Video = Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Mobil. +34 609 30 47 35 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 or 693 60 92 (skype) Mobil +46 (0)70-520 68 44 Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The unspoken Holocaust
civilians and troops) who surrendered to British forces in southern Austria, and who were subsequently handed over to the Yugoslav Communist authorities. The number of Croat captives who perished after 1945 in Communist Yugoslavia remains an emotion-laden topic in Croatia, with important implications for the country's domestic and foreign policy. 4. Anton Scherer, Manfred Straka, Kratka povijest podunavskih Nijemaca/ Abriss zur Geschichte der Donauschwaben (Graz: Leopold Stocker Verlag/ Zagreb: Pan Liber, 1999), esp. p. 131; Georg Wildmann, and others, Genocide of the Ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia 1944-1948 (Santa Ana, Calif.: Danube Swabian Association of the USA, 2001), p. 31. 5. A. Scherer, M. Straka, Kratka povijest podunavskih Nijemaca/ Abriss zur Geschichte der Donauschwaben (1999), pp. 132-140. 6. Georg Wildmann, and others, Verbrechen an den Deutschen in Jugoslawien, 1944-48 (Munich: Donauschwäbische Kulturstiftung, 1998), esp. pp. 312-313. Based on this is the English-language work: Georg Wildmann, and others, Genocide of the Ethnic Germans in Yugoslavia 1944-1948 ( Santa Ana, Calif.: Danube Swabian Association of the USA, 2001). 7. G. Wildmann, and others, Verbrechen an den Deutschen in Jugoslawien, 1944-48, esp. p. 274. 8. Wendelin Gruber, In the Claws of the Red Dragon: Ten Years Under Tito's Heel (Toronto: St. Michaelswerk, 1988). Translated from German by Frank Schmidt. 12In 1993 the ailing Fr. Gruber returned to Croatia from exile in Paraguay, to spend his final years in a Jesuit monastery in Zagreb. I spoke with him shortly before his death on August 14, 2002, at the age of 89. 9. Stéphane Courtois, and others, The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1999). 10. G. Wildmann, and others, Verbrechen an den Deutschen in Jugoslawien (cited above), p. 22. 11. Armin Preuss, Prinz Eugen: Der edle Ritter (Berlin: Grundlagen Verlag, 1996). 12. Otto Kumm, Geschichte der 7. SS-Freiwilligen Gebirgs-Division Prinz Eugen (Coburg: Nation Europa, 1995). 13. Roland Kaltenegger, Titos Kriegsgefangene: Folterlager, Hungermärsche und Schauprozesse ( Graz : Leopold Stocker Verlag, 2001). 14. Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, Nemesis at Potsdam: The Expulsion of the Germans From the East. (Lincoln: Univ. of Nebraska, 1989 [3rd rev. ed.]); Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, The German Expellees: Victims in War and Peace (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1993); Alfred-Maurice de Zayas, A Terrible Revenge: The Ethnic Cleansing of the East European Germans, 1944-1950 (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1994); Ralph F. Keeling, Gruesome Harvest: The Allies' Postwar War Against the German People (Institute for Historical Review, 1992). 15. Tomislav Sunic, Titoism and Dissidence: Studies in the History and Dissolution of Communist Yugoslavia (Frankfurt, New York: Peter Lang, 1995) -- Tomislav Sunic holds a doctorate in political science from the University of California, Santa Barbara. He is an author, translator and former professor of political science in the USA. Tom Sunic currently lives with his family in Croatia. An interview with him, Reexamining Assumptions, appeared in the March-April 2002 Journal of Historical Review (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v21/v21n2p15_sunic.html) . His most recent book is Homo americanus: Child of the Postmodern Age (2007), which can be obtained through Amazon books (http://www.amazon.com/Homo-americanus-Child-Postmodern-Age/dp/1419659847). For more by and about him, see his website (http://doctorsunic.netfirms.com/). This article is adapted from Dr. Sunic's address on June 22, 2002, at the 14th IHR Conference, in Irvine, California. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20071004/6c6b09f5/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Mobil. +34 609 30 47 35 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 or 693 60 92 (skype) Mobil +46 (0)70-520 68 44 Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http
Re: [Biofuel] Re Twentynine steps to the unthinkable
like it. The German government has been owning up to The Holocaust since the end of the war. IF it turns out that, in fact, there was no such thing, no death camps, no extermination plans, then how quick is the world going to be in saying, Well, we were right about the rest of the war but 100 percent wrong about that other little matter. Sorry about that.? It isn't going to happen. Would anyone be sorry that generations of Germans have grown up hating who they are because of a lie? I don't think so. We, as a species, seem to be quick to point the accusing finger but slow to apologize for a mistake if one has been made. Finding out for a certainty whether or not this evil thing did or did not happen would be nice. It is wearying to keep having this ground ploughed again and again without having any crops come up. The seed is there to be sown so why not do it? Send in a multi-national scientific forensic team and do the science. Get a definitive answer and lay this beast to rest. We have work to do and this thing does nothing but divert attention from pressing problems. It can be definitively decided. If the science and math are there then it is laid to rest and if they are not there it is laid to rest. End of story. I am somewhat disappointed that folks would jump on Molloy about this without any evidence other than hearsay, assumptions and cherished beliefs and particularly since Bob was asking questions not making accusations. It is incumbent on those making the accusations of the atrocities to give scientific evidence of not only the physical possibility of the event but of the actual event. Leuchter, who evidently went into the forensic investigation at the behest of a Holocaust denier on trial in Canada I believe but with the personal intention of gathering evidence proving the event, found no evidence to support the claims of the Allies and the survivors of the camps, but contrariwise, found it lacking. As he was working for the opposition so to speak then let disinterested parties, perhaps a United Nations scientific team of varying nationalities do the work. No big shake.Why should Molloy take the heat? He just asked some questions. I can't speak for anyone other than myself but I don't like being wrong and if I am wrong I want to bring myself into line with that which is right and am thankful for anyone helping me to be in the right. I'm wrong and proud of it. is not a slogan I advocate. Even if it makes me uncomfortable or forces me to make fundamental alterations to my belief and knowledge system I would rather be right knowingly than ignorantly wrong. But that's just me. If someone wants me to believe them they are going to have to show me the evidence. No hearsay or anecdotes. No common knowledge or eyewitness testimony from interested parties. Was it mathematically possible given the technology of the day and is there verifiable forensic and other scientific evidence? Not a difficult thing to find out I should think. Why the hesitation? Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Mobil. +34 609 30 47 35 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 or 693 60 92 (skype) Mobil +46 (0)70-520 68 44 Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Twentynine steps to the unthinkable
Bob, My mother studied in Munic around 1938 and made a lot of both Jewish and German friends. When some of them managed to escape to Sweden during the war, she helped helped of them So she experienced both the roundup of the Jews and not to forget a lot of German intellectuals that protested. She was personal friend to one of the group of students that try to escape to, Switzerland. they have done a film about them. After she came back to Sweden, she became very active in helping the refugees and our family had a lot of Jewish friends, which I met and heard their story, after the war, and I also saw myself the tattooed numbers on their arms. It was not many, but some survived and could tell, do not forget that or the allied soldiers who was the first to reach the camps, saw the results from the attempts of finish the job before they got there and could film it. Bob, what you are saying is not only full of s..t, it is also ignorant and dangerous, but I guess that you are aware of your provocation and it is not worth to discuss here. I do think that Keith should consider if you are a valuable member of this group, maybe you are, as an rare and very bad example. I have had a lot of things going on and could not participate much lately, but this I could not be silent on. Hakan At 05:45 PM 9/29/2007, you wrote: Hi Doug, not going into the discussion if the Holocaust killed 6 Million Jews,my beleive is,if it was only one,it was one to much! But talking about Dachau,my Childhood was not to far from D. und i know for fact,that my Grandfather was interned for about 3 Weeks in Dachau,because he refused to let his Sons (my Oncles) to the Hitlerjuths.My Grandfather had real Arien ancestors (wich i dont care about) Fritz - Original Message - From: doug swanson To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Twentynine steps to the unthinkable There's a documentary on Google video, I think it was directed by Alfred Hitchcock, with footage and commentary. Looks like proof to me that the holocaust happened. Having been to Ausschwitz and Dachau, I can believe, without having been through it, just having looked at the site, and the photos in their museum, that it wasn't just an elaborate hoax... the link is: *http://tinyurl.com/3c9yua for those that want to check it out. It is quite disturbing... doug swanson * -- Contentment comes not from having more, but from wanting less. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * All generalizations are false. Including this one. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20070929/9b9b91e8/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Mobil. +34 609 30 47 35 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 or 693 60 92 (skype) Mobil +46 (0)70-520 68 44 Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Watch this
Fritz, Maybe it is not that important where he was born, if I remember right he lived and worked in France. They often say that French is one of the few languages that is suitable to explain mathematics. He was however Jewish and spent most of his active life in France. Considering his historical importance, no wonder that it is conflicting claims on where he was born. Hakan At 05:28 PM 9/9/2007, you wrote: Hi Kirk, did you watched the whole Video? I found a small (or big ) Mistake towards the End! Albert Einstein was presented as an other Austrian Scientist! In my books Einstein was born in Ulm Germany and this makes him a German Scientist! Not very important in my Philosophie but why the misrepresentation? Fritz -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20070909/b780d434/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Mobil. +34 609 30 47 35 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 or 693 60 92 (skype) Mobil +46 (0)70-520 68 44 Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Weapons of mass destruction finally found
I am a bit lost, I thought that AK-47 was the most popular Russian, high quality, reliable weapon. How come that the American lost them. According to the law of business, they should have been destroyed and replaced by an American weapons, which would make the enemy less dangerous. 250,000 bullets/soldier only prove the support of the American industry, I doubt that they have been fired. This means that the average American soldier spent around 23 hours only firing his weapon, sound very high, but the US soldiers are a trigger happy bunch and it is very dangerous to be close to them. The casualties in friendly fire are understandable, but amazing, considering that it is a non drafted and professional army. LOL You should also consider that in every war, it is many soldiers that never fire his gun in a real situation. The safety zone around an American soldier must be around 1,000 m, no wonder that they have difficulties getting terrorists and kill so much innocent civilians, who does not know better. Hakan At 16:57 15/08/2007, you wrote: I'm surprised and disappointed at this. It's totally false and misleading. The US has NEVER lost AK-47's in Iraq. We lose much better weapons. AK-47's are junk compared to the hardware WE'VE lost track off. If you're going to just fling around anti-Americanism, PLEASE get the facts straight. Jeez, -'Merika Keith Addison wrote: Hello Lee It now becomes clear, Bush was right on the money. There are weapons of mass destruction and they are still being developed and deployed. US nuclear weapons being the main example, and I guess the 190,000 guns the US lost in Iraq would also qualify, in sheer number if not in scale, especially when it emerges that the holy US military shoots 250,000 bullets for every alleged insurgent they kill. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2146645,00.html Oh well. At least losing all those AK-47s builds a market Saturday August 11, 2007 The Guardian http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article314944.ece US forced to import bullets from Israel as troops use 250,000 for every rebel killed - Independent Online Edition Americas 26 July 2007 But I get your meaning. It's just that if you're looking for WMDs and people who're ready to use them it's long been the case that Washington's the first place to look. In fact that applies to your meaning for the term here too, the world capital of dangerous and rash behaviour is Washington. The developing countries are following the path of the developed world I don't think so. Some of them are, but even then it's only in part. India is an industrialised nation but it's also an agrarian society, and a traditional one, with its own values that don't necessarily just collapse into those of California wannabes as soon as they see some Golden Arches and a bottle of Coke. Just as often there's active resistance. To say that their most powerful members, India, China, Brazil and South Africa, are following the path of the developed world would be a gross simplification. And developed is a very questionable definition, almost Orwellian. Blind addiction to self-destructive and generally destructive behaviour is not exactly developed. Better to call them the industrialised nations. Anyway the world isn't really made up of nations, that's just a state of mind, a sour ferment of the new wine of democracy in the old bottles of tribalism. Useful for rulers. and mass producing greenhouse gasses and other pollutants with technology we all know we should no longer be using. As their ability to afford more and consume increases, their medical systems improve their population will boom, compounding the effect. On the contrary, the evidence shows that as people's economic situation improves, as soon as they're not too poverty-stricken to feed their children, their breeding rate slows right down. The surefire way to do that is to empower the women, and especially to educate the women. But the usual wealth creation method of improving people's economic situation generally just extracts wealth, removes it and concentrates it in the hands of the few, leaving more poverty in its wake. There are better ways. Have we as a species, reached or exceeded the sustainable population for our planet? It depends how big your feet are. I said this here the other day: ... There is NO shortage of food, and there is NO shortage of money, in fact there's more of both, PER CAPITA, than there's ever been before. Nor is the human eco-footprint outsized, except for some of it, which - surprise! - you'll find in exactly the same places where you'll find all the money, all the food, and all the silly ideas too that we're a cancer on the face of the planet and a few billion of us are just going to have to die, pity, but at least it's not us because we're not poor and starving.
Re: [Biofuel] Pepsi Forced to Admit It's Bottling Tap Water
/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Hakan Falk http://energysavingnow.com/ and http://villaslujo.com/ Tel. Spain +34 972 32 05 89 Mobil. +34 609 30 47 35 Tel. Sweden +46 (0)40 692 82 10 or 693 60 92 (skype) Mobil +46 (0)70-520 68 44 Skype user hakanfalk MSN [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Energy saving
After moving my site http://energysavingnow.com a number of times and changed domain names, I have finally had the time to fix most of the links and information. It was a mess, but I think I did catch most of the problems and if you like to look, it would be nice if you tell me about things I might have missed. After being inactive and not worked on the site, I am surprised about how much useful information it was on it. Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] permanent magnet alternators
Joe, How much are they spinning in a car? To me it looks like the wheel on the alternator is much smaller than the wheel on the car engine, could it be 1 to 4 or more? 4,000 rpm for the car engine is quite usual, so the alternator can not be far from 18,000 in normal conditions. Just a thought about the normal conditions for an alternator, or maybe I am wrong? Hakan At 17:09 08/12/2006, you wrote: Read that page carefully! It says the alternator can produce 12 Kwat 18,000 RPM!!! Good luck spiniing that thing that fast. I'm sure the bearings would catch fire if the whole thing doesn't explode first. Speeds that high require incredible balancing and air bearing spindles. Buyer beware! Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/powerpmas.htmlhttp://www.hydrogenappliances.com/powerpmas.html Access over 1 million songs - http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/Yahoo! Music Unlimited. ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] permanent magnet alternators
Joe, Twice the diameter, would be close to 1 to 4, right (THE SQUARE OF 2)? Agree that 2,500 might be close to normal speed. That would be something like 10,000 rpm for the alternator at normal speed. Talking about that the alternator would explode at 18,000 rpm is maybe an overstatement? With the use of alternators in wind generators, I have never seen them classed at more then 6-8 Kw, but would not be surprised if they would not explode if you under extreme conditions get 12 Kw. With 10 m diameter, you would get a lot more than 12 Kw. I would guess, without calculations, that we are closer to 4-5 m diameter. This after looking at existing wind generators. When we talk about large wind, we are talking about 100's of Kw and diameters around 30 m. It was a while since I looked at wind, but it is a section on my web site. Hakan At 19:06 08/12/2006, you wrote: Hi Hakan; I bet the pulley on the crankshaft is less than twice the alternator's pulley diameter. Also the amount of time your engine is reving above 2500 rpm is short compared to the normal. Anyways they talk about low losses but the gearbox required to turn the alternator that fast would be very lossy and what diameter of propeller would be required to extract 12 kw from the average wind? 10 meters? more? lol! Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, How much are they spinning in a car? To me it looks like the wheel on the alternator is much smaller than the wheel on the car engine, could it be 1 to 4 or more? 4,000 rpm for the car engine is quite usual, so the alternator can not be far from 18,000 in normal conditions. Just a thought about the normal conditions for an alternator, or maybe I am wrong? Hakan At 17:09 08/12/2006, you wrote: Read that page carefully! It says the alternator can produce 12 Kwat 18,000 RPM!!! Good luck spiniing that thing that fast. I'm sure the bearings would catch fire if the whole thing doesn't explode first. Speeds that high require incredible balancing and air bearing spindles. Buyer beware! Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: http://www.hydrogenappliances.com/powerpmas.htmlhttp://www.hydrogenappliances.com/powerpmas.html Access over 1 million songs - http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/Yahoo! Music Unlimited. ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] permanent magnet alternators
Joe, Yes I got messed up with language, circumference, area and wind speed, because circumference is not really interesting. Regarding relations between area and wind speed, you have a table on my site. If you double the circumference the area goes up with the quadrate and if you double the wind speed the energy content goes up with cubic. The best we can do is to try to find some tables on car alternators, to see their data. As I understand it now, after looking at data, a high performance car alternator would give around 200 amps at 12 to 22 VDC, which give at the high end 22x200= 4.4 Kw. You can get more by having a multiple generator system, mounted on single drive axis and can buy those as standard up to 800 amps . It looks like the upper limit for single generator is around 5 Kw and standard one axis multiple generators 17 Kw. Probably the rpm set to 18,000 is a mistyping and it should be 1,800 rpm, but what is a zero more or less between friends. After looking at some existing generators, they recommend to not go over 2,500 rpm. It looks like the recommendations is to have the generator at half the speed of the engine. It is however possible to rev up an generator to give more power, because the limitation is the current not the power, if it is revved up to give a higher voltage and power, it will also give a higher power output. It is however questionable that the windings and other components would stand for it, see, http://www.1stconnect.com/anozira/SiteTops/energy/Alternator/alternator.htm It describes quite good the design and limitations and it confirms the worries that you had, maybe not exactly but it is component problems that limits the output. What would we do, if we did not have Internet and the wealth of information. I found the link to be a good primer to generators. A table that allow you to rev up the generator to 18,000 rpm will probably give you hight voltage and high power output, but does not seem to be realistic, if the generator is not specially designed for this speeds and high voltage. Hakan At 20:49 08/12/2006, you wrote: Hi Hakan; If the diameter of the pulley is doubled the circumference is doubled. Not 4 times. You must be thinking of area. Now if you double the diameter on a wind turbine you do get 4 times the power. Is this what you were thinking of? If a 3 meter turbine produces 1kw ( a safe guess for a home made unit? with average windwhatever that means) so then a 12 kw output would require sqrt 12 or about 3.4 times the diameter so about 10 meters diameter? Does this sound reasonable? Yes when you get into the 10's of thousands of rpm things do tend to fly apart. Explode is not technically the right term but equivalent in effect. I have seen a saw blade disintigrate into dust when it's rpm was increased from 16,000 to 24,000. It was very exciting. Lucky nobody got hurt! No peice of the blade existed which was larger than a grain of sand. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Twice the diameter, would be close to 1 to 4, right (THE SQUARE OF 2)? Agree that 2,500 might be close to normal speed. That would be something like 10,000 rpm for the alternator at normal speed. Talking about that the alternator would explode at 18,000 rpm is maybe an overstatement? With the use of alternators in wind generators, I have never seen them classed at more then 6-8 Kw, but would not be surprised if they would not explode if you under extreme conditions get 12 Kw. With 10 m diameter, you would get a lot more than 12 Kw. I would guess, without calculations, that we are closer to 4-5 m diameter. This after looking at existing wind generators. When we talk about large wind, we are talking about 100's of Kw and diameters around 30 m. It was a while since I looked at wind, but it is a section on my web site. Hakan At 19:06 08/12/2006, you wrote: Hi Hakan; I bet the pulley on the crankshaft is less than twice the alternator's pulley diameter. Also the amount of time your engine is reving above 2500 rpm is short compared to the normal. Anyways they talk about low losses but the gearbox required to turn the alternator that fast would be very lossy and what diameter of propeller would be required to extract 12 kw from the average wind? 10 meters? more? lol! Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, How much are they spinning in a car? To me it looks like the wheel on the alternator is much smaller than the wheel on the car engine, could it be 1 to 4 or more? 4,000 rpm for the car engine is quite usual, so the alternator can not be far from 18,000 in normal conditions. Just a thought about the normal conditions for an alternator, or maybe I am wrong? Hakan At 17:09 08/12/2006, you wrote: Read that page carefully! It says the alternator can produce 12 Kwat 18,000 RPM!!! Good luck spiniing that thing that fast. I'm sure the bearings would catch fire if the whole thing doesn't explode first. Speeds that high
Re: [Biofuel] Jean Pain
Eric, If you want to have flexibility, you should have a low temperature heating system and floor heating is ideal. To this you can have a larger number of heating sources to choose from and better efficiency. It is also wise to use the buildings accumulation potential, instead of being dependent of high temperature heat sources. Heat from compost, solar panels, ground sources, heat pumps etc. will suddenly be at temperatures that easily fit with your delivery system (the floor). Hakan At 23:54 08/12/2006, you wrote: I am interested in Jean Pain's methods of using compost to heat his house. In the Journey to Forever reprint of the article that appeared in Reader's Digest it mentions he pipes the water into registers. I was wondering if it might be more efficient to use underfloor radiant heating instead. Unfortunately I have no copy of his book available to learn more about this. I am in the process of designing a house and look forward to incorporating as many innovative, efficient, and appropriate technologies as I can now and allow for the future addition of those I can't. Eric Jean Pain article: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/methane_pain.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy - a book by Darryl McMahon
Darryl was nice to send me a pre copy and later a signed copy and I can give my best recommendations. It covers the issues very well in a way that is very easy to understand. Hakan At 17:12 14/11/2006, you wrote: Fellow listers, my book, The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy, is now in print. For those wishing to conserve trees, an eBook version is also available. From the back cover: The perfect storm is approaching for energy in North America. World peak oil production has arrived. North American peak natural gas production is knocking on the door. The electrical generation and transmission system is suffering from years of under-investment in the wake of deregulation, corporate mergers, market gaming and cost cutting to boost short-term share values. Demand continues to rise. Analysts forecast dramatic increases in energy prices for the next decade and more. The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy shows in detail why the much-heralded Hydrogen Economy won't work as advertised, and even if it could, it won't be ready in time to help most of us. You can improve your situation as the North American energy crunch unfolds. You can keep your quality of life, and not revert to the Dark Ages as oil supplies diminish. Understand why you need your own personal energy plan, so you can maintain your lifestyle, improve the environment and save money doing it. Learn how from an author who shares his personal experiences and sees light at the end of the path ahead, not blackouts. The book embodies more than four years of research and writing (and logistics associated with producing a physical book for sale in a competitive market). It stems from my work in the field of electric vehicles, and the original promise of hydrogen fuel cells circa 2000. As I dug into the subject, I found there were significant issues. Since 2002, I have presented talks, written articles, and had a Web page dedicated to the subject. The book is an extension from that, and the result of exhortations from others that I should present the material in this format. The first half of the book examines the issues surrounding the hydrogen economy in some detail. The second half explores why we need to become more self-sufficient, and various means at our disposal to do so. That includes many of the things with which I have some first-hand experience: electric vehicles, conservation, efficiency, solar space heating, solar water heating, etc. within a survey of proven, ready-now preferred alternatives. Given the discussions I have enjoyed here over the past few years, I am sure many of you will be interested in the content. Without question, this list has opened my eyes to some potential opportunities I would not have known about otherwise. It has also introduced me to some people who encouraged me with the endeavour, and with material. Thank you. Naturally, JtF merits a mention in the book (page 250). More information on the book is available at my Web site, at http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/ The book is available from several sources, including the following. The publisher, iUniverse (eBook) http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?isbn=0-595-83619-4 Trade paperback http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?isbn=0-595-39229-6 Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Emperors-New-Hydrogen-Economy/dp/0595392296/ Barnes and Noble http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=yEAN=9780595392292 Chapters.Indigo.ca http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/item/books-978059539229/ In the event you want a signed copy, please e-mail me directly. I'm currently out of stock, but should receive more next week. -- Darryl McMahon It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (now in print and eBook) http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] NZ Coroners Report on Complementary Medicines
Talking about medicines natural or whatever. My father always said, that if they could make recipes on love and sex, it would be possible to cut the hospital beds in half. I have yet to find the physician that is not very scared to go to hospital and I have many friends who are physician. LOL Hakan At 00:01 16/10/2006, you wrote: D. Mindock wrote: Hi Marylynn, Thanks for this info on NZ! Yeah, wow. I too am amazed that this study was done. It seems that common sense and spine abounds in NZ. God bless Wallace Bain! The same problems Down Under will be here in the US fairly soon. Big Pharma, along with the AMA and FDA is, imo, trying to snuff out alt medicine before it largely replaces the drugs, surgery, radiation, and chemo used by the so-called health care industry. They can do all the science they want, but the fact is that allopathic medicine is a failed model except for emergency care like heart attacks, acute disease, etc. For chronic problems, alt medicine is the way to go, where the whole person (mind, body, emotional state) is examined and treated. The same is true here wrt to herbs, supplements, essential oils, vitamins. Most of the deaths attributable to these have been because of gross misuse. When a young pro baseball player died a couple years ago because of his total misuse of ephedra the corporate friendly media was all over that story and really pounded it home. They failed to mention that he was trying to lose a lot of weight (winter fat) in a hurry. He took a triple dose of ephedra plus was wearing extra clothes, practicing baseball in the hot sun of Florida. Likely he was dehydrated too. When a few folks died after taking L-tryptophan, maybe six years ago, the FDA took advantage of that to pull it off the market, even though L-tryptophan is a common amino acid found in a number of foods and completely harmless. The manufacturer (a Japanese company) was found later to have released a contaminated product which caused the deaths. Nontheless, L-tryptophan, an essential amino acid, was kept off the market and is still unavailable. nonsense, you can get all tryptophan you want in 500 mg pills at Live extension, or just eat protein, it is full of tryptophan. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophan Every year about 33 people die from contaminated soft cheese but it has never been pulled, as far as I know. Several baseball players are suspected of using performance enhancing steroids. So now, DHEA, a very useful supplement that enhances lean muscle mass, has anti-aging properties, and improves vitality, is the subject of legislation that will categorize it as an anabolic steroid, making it non-available to millions of men and women who use it routinely. This is being done in secret with no public discourse. Of course, the real granddaddy of all is the Codex Alimentarius whose aim is to clear the shelves of health food stores of all the stuff we're used to taking to help us maintain optimal health. Use any search engine to find more info on this. Likely the Codex is what's going on in Oz and now, NZ. Here in the states there is not a word about it on the media, so most have no clue. Dr Mathias Rath is leading the movement in Europe to stop the Codex. Here's his list of cancer studies, many of which are natural: http://www.drrathresearch.org/health_news/natural_health_cancer.html Big Pharma hates this guy are doing all they can to discredit him. Since they have been unsuccessful, you know he is the real deal. Just like Dr Burzynski in Texas. Peace and light, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Marylynn Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 12:41 PM Subject: [Biofuel] NZ Coroners Report on Complementary Medicines Interesting .. I'm amazed that this study was done .. Mary Lynn Schmidt Despite extensive research, coroner Dr Wallace Bain found no deaths have occurred in New Zealand due to natural medicines such as vitamins, minerals and herbal products. Dear Health Freedom Advocate, Dr Wallace Bain, Acting Chair of the Coroners' Council, has just released this report into deaths caused by natural health medicines in New Zealand. He highlights the information in light of the push by the New Zealand government for greater control over natural medicines by way of legislation to create the Australia New Zealand Therapeutics Products Authority (ANZTPA). Natural medicines - the safest way to avoid death A report just released by the Acting Chair of the Coroner's Council has shown natural medicines have the lowest fatality rate of all medical treatments in New Zealand. Despite extensive research, coroner Dr Wallace Bain found no deaths have occurred in New Zealand due to
Re: [Biofuel] Secret to cheap petrol is coal
Aussies is now following the South Africans, next will be Europe, Russia, China, US and all coal rich countries. We discussed and predicted this years ago, it is the natural way for the seven sisters and their associates etc.. New dirty technology since more than 80 years back. LOL Hakan At 12:34 11/09/2006, you wrote: Yep thats the way it goes Come and mine Oz as the people are to stupid to know what goes on D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/secret-to-cheap-petrol-is-coal/2006/09/09/1157222384113.html Secret to cheap petrol is coal Jason Dowling September 10, 2006 A $5 BILLION proposal to turn some of Victoria's abundant brown coal into diesel moved a step closer after the State Government revealed it was about to grant a mining licence to the company behind the project. Energy Minister Theo Theophanous told The Sunday Age that the project aimed to produce about 60,000 barrels a day of high-quality diesel fuel at a much lower cost than present world prices. He said an announcement on a mining licence for Monash Energy was likely to be made before the November 25 state election. The mining licence approval would include details of the total investment and when the plant would be operational. The first stage, which will cost between $300 million and $400 million, would be a demonstration plant that could be up and running in six years. The entire project should be operational in 10 years. The project has the backing of Shell and the big mining company Anglo American. A key aspect of the project, promoted as clean energy, would be the minimising of greenhouse gas emissions by separating the carbon dioxide from the brown coal and storing it underground - a project known as geosequestration. About $1.5 billion of the $5 billion project would be spent on the geosequestration process, Mr Theophanous said. The project would be one of the world's biggest carbon dioxide capture and storage projects, with the gas stored deep underground in the offshore oil and gas fields in the Gippsland Basin. Mr Theophanous told The Sunday Age that a trial geosequestration project near Warrnambool had received $4 million in State Government money and would likely begin depositing carbon dioxide underground next year. We have to find out - does it work and how safe is it? he said. It would be selfish to not worry about global warming, leaving it to our children. Victoria is estimated to have about 500 years of brown coal reserves in the Latrobe Valley. Mr Theophanous said that if geosequestration was successful, Victoria could cut to close to zero the emissions from new brown coal power stations in the future. He said Victoria would need a new base-load power station in the next decade, but he did not expect the geosequestration technology to be ready until the power station after next. Mr Theophanous said it would also be unlikely the geosequestration technology would have much impact on emissions from Victoria's existing power stations. Peter Cook, chief executive of the company CO2CRC, which is behind the geosequestration trial at Nirranda, near Warrnambool, said its success was absolutely crucial to the future of the Monash Energy coal-to-diesel project. Dr Cook said there had been keen interest in the geosequestration trial from around the world. He said representatives from other countries and the International Energy Agency would be in Melbourne next month to examine the geosequestration trial. He said they would look at how the carbon could be monitored once it was stored underground. The project is expected to be the first geosequestration trial in Australia when up and running next year. Opposition Leader Ted Baillieu said he supported any project that tackled carbon dioxide emissions at their source. But a Greenpeace energy campaigner, Mark Wakeham, said geosequestration was untried and expensive. We don't know whether the CO 2 can be stored for the long term, he said. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ On Yahoo!7 http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tag/greatoutdoors/**http%3A%2F%2Fau.travel.yahoo.com%2Fgreat-outdoors%2Findex.htmlCheck out the new Great Outdoors site with video highlights and more ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sweden how they do it
Hi Mike, If you look at the private transportation sector in Sweden, Jan is describing fairly correct the situation. This sector is heavily influenced by foreign companies, after the auto industry has been taken over by them and the export situation. An other sector that is the same or bigger size in a country like Sweden, is the energy use in buildings and Sweden is leading in this sector. On average a Swedish building uses 1/3 of an US and 1/4 of a Canadian, after climate corrections. The good thing is that this cannot be overthrown and it is nailed down in the building standard of 1978, which we were involved in. For the truck and buses, the situation is also more positive, than the private transportation. The Swedish truck and bus industry is known for its good over all fuel economy , cleanliness and reliability. I think that Jan is right, when he talk about private autos, but this is also dependent on that Sweden had to accept imports on this side. If Sweden set too stringent rules for private autos, it would be severe trade consequences. That truck and buses can excel, is mainly because Sweden is a leading manufacturer with large export and that it is driven by economics. Since I have been involved in building Forsmark I and II, I can say that, at this time Sweden was also far ahead in design and security demands of nuclear power. There are no single shielded power stations, as in many other parts of the world, and the design criteria was the hardest in the world. At the time ASEA (later ABB) had a very interesting low temperature neighborhood reactor, designed and ready to build, but the referendum stopped this development. Others are now working on similar designs and it is a very low risk reactor, compared to todays reactors. Knowing the design criteria and maintenance demands, Sweden would not be any of the first countries that worries me. I have much higher concerns about the former Soviet Union and US. Unfortunately, a major nuclear accident almost always goes global and can effect the whole world, that is why I am very worried about the situation on the general state of nuclear power. Hakan At 19:05 13/08/2006, you wrote: Hi Jan (and List)...it's really great getting info from the horse's mouth...good to know Americans aren't the only fatheads on the planet as so many on this List like to continually proclaim. -- Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Jan Warnqvist To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Sweden how they do it Hello Lugano et al. As a Swedish native I can provide a more detailed and personal picture of the possibilities of oil independence of this country. There are a number of buts: - The power companies are not allowed to increase the share of electricity coming from hydropower sources, because there is environmental, nature-protecting legislation. So, in order to become more independent of oil, we just have to trust that the 11 nuclear power plants running, will keep on to do so without serious accidents or other side effects. - Biodiesel has never been a popular product within any administration in this country. This is probably because biodiesel production can be performed in small scale. The administrative favourite product, ethanol, is a typical large scale product, which complies more with the industrial traditions of this country. One can even suspect that there is an attitude proclaiming that it is bad enough letting the farmers be in control of the food production. Things would get even worse if the farmers were in control of the energy production as well. - The petroleum supplies to this country have mainly been coming from the North Sea for a number of decades now, provided nominally by Norwegian and British companies. But the northernAtlantic production has already passed its peak, making changes necessary in order not to be totally depending upon oil from Russia and the middle east, which can be considered as a too adventurous project. - The result of next election can very well over-throw the ambition of oil independence, since the right-liberal-centre coalition aiming for office, doesn´t have this target on the agenda. - The automotive industry, not only the Swedish, has to acknowledge and accept the goal. So far nothing along this line has been proclaimed from the industry. In such a small export-depending country as Sweden, the automotive industry is very power-ful, and used to having its way. Jan Warnqvist + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Lugano Wilson To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Sweden how they do it Yes, Sweden is well commited to renewabel energy as part of energy security and
Re: [Biofuel] Your Beliefs
John, I do not know, probably not, if I knew the consequences. Many of the scientists that were drafted to do the development, on both sides, were also against it. In war time the people have few choices. Maybe even some politician would be against the development, but they could not grasp was the result would be. However, it was better that the Americans was first, Nazi Germany under Hitler was not far behind, delayed a little bit by the destruction of the heavy water production plant in Norway. It is clear that US understood what was going on and had to be first, otherwise Europe might have been Germany now and US a radioactive desert. It is no doubt that Germany was far ahead on the rocket missile development and it was the same people that later help US to be the leading nation in space and missile technology. They were moved to US and fast tracked to be US citizens. Hakan At 19:01 20/07/2006, you wrote: Not to defend the US government's actions, but if you had the opportunity to be the only one holding the nuclear weapons, wouldn't you want to be? -John On Jul 20, 2006, at 12:50 PM, Fritz Friesinger wrote: Not to mention the unecessary use of two atomic bombs on the Japanese. Americans are the only ones ever to massacre human beings with nuclear weapons and yet they deem themselves to be the ones worthy of having them.huh? Joe Hey Joe, you speak my mind thanks Fritz ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ br div___/div divBiofuel mailing list/div divBiofuel@sustainablelists.org/div diva href=http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org; EUDORA=AUTOURLhttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/a/div br divBiofuel at Journey to Forever:/div diva href=http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html; EUDORA=AUTOURLhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html/a/div br divSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):/div diva href=http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/; EUDORA=AUTOURLhttp://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org//a/div /blockquote/x-html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Bob, I forgot about your ethnic forebears massacres of the native American population. In numbers it is also comparable. Bob, I have a lot to do and have been silent for a while, but this I have to comment. It was clearly under the belt and very insensitive and outright dumb, especially form an American. US do have their own racism and the internment of Americans with Japanese decent during WWII is nothing to be proud of, not to talk about the racism and prosecution of black people, this still in more recent times. Your comments says more about you than about Fritz. It was very few Germans who knew about what was going on, most knew about internment, but very few about the final solution and even fewer that was involved in it. In fact it was very few that ever read Mein Kampf and had reasons to suspect anything like the final solution. They knew about the interment as the Americans knew about their own internment of Japanese Americans also. The final solution was set in practise by a few and when the German population were more occupied by the war. You are also talking about taking personal responsibility for forefathers and then you are personal responsible for the Japanese internment and prosecution of black people also. Hakan At 05:09 20/07/2006, you wrote: Hello Bob I think you should check your beliefs. http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2921 'Because This Is the Middle East' http://snipurl.com/pg9x Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel 3 Jun 2004 Keith Yo Fritz, Yeah, right on Fritz. And just to prove it your ethnic forebears killed off six million of these bloody Jews only to have the rest of us dumb westerners stop them just before they'd finished the job. Now it's up to the poor Palestinians with only suicide bombers and Katushya rockets to carry on where the rest of us left off. We need to force the Israelis to open these roads, tear down their walls and move back onto their own territory so that the bombers in civilian clothing have a fighting chance to get closer to Israeli settlements. At least let's have a level playing field here. After it's all over and the Palestinians have finally established their Muslim state we can allow a few Israeli refugees into western countries just as long as they toe the line and run the garbage collection systems for us. Good one, Fritz, Bob. - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Fritz Friesinger To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:33 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Forewardet by Fritz -- Check Your Beliefs By Charley Reese 03/17/06 -- -- Let's play a fantasy game to check on our belief in human rights. Let's suppose that in a mythical state, a governor announced a campaign to punish African-Americans for alleged violence. Step one is to confiscate the land owned by African-Americans, evict them from it and use the land to build massive new subdivisions. Only white Protestant Christians may live in these subdivisions. Step two is to connect these all-white Protestant Christian settlements to each other by a highway on which African-Americans are forbidden to drive. To facilitate control, the automobile tags for African-Americans will be a different color from the tags issued to white motorists. Checkpoints would be set up all around the state capitol to search and harass African-Americans trying to enter. Would you support such a plan? Would you hail that mythical governor as a man of peace? Would you go to your church congregation and ask the members to send money to the occupants of these white settlements? Would you lobby the federal government to subsidize this new apartheid state in our midst? I don't think so. I think most Americans would consider such acts an abomination, un-American and a mockery of everything both Christianity and the United States stand for. Well, if you would condemn such acts here directed against African-Americans, why won't you condemn identical acts committed against the Palestinians by the state of Israel? Those settlements you hear about are built on Palestinian land, and they are for Jews only. New roads that Palestinians are forbidden to use connect them. The entire West Bank is riddled with Israeli checkpoints, where innocent Palestinians are daily humiliated and harassed. A trip to a nearby village can mean waiting in line at checkpoints for hours. Palestinians have died in these lines. After all of these humiliations, abuses, the houses destroyed, the children killed, the olive trees uprooted, how do you think Palestinians feel about Americans who support the Israelis no matter what they do to the Palestinians? Don't take my word about these abuses. Check out the Israeli human-rights organization at
Re: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs
Bob, I have a lot to do and have been silent for a while, but this I have to comment. It was clearly under the belt and very insensitive and outright dumb, especially form an American. US do have their own racism and the internment of Americans with Japanese decent during WWII is nothing to be proud of, not to talk about the racism and prosecution of black people, this still in more recent times. Your comments says more about you than about Fritz. It was very few Germans who knew about what was going on, most knew about internment, but very few about the final solution and even fewer that was involved in it. In fact it was very few that ever read Mein Kampf and had reasons to suspect anything like the final solution. They knew about the interment as the Americans knew about their own internment of Japanese Americans also. The final solution was set in practise by a few and when the German population were more occupied by the war. You are also talking about taking personal responsibility for forefathers and then you are personal responsible for the Japanese internment and prosecution of black people also. Hakan At 05:09 20/07/2006, you wrote: Hello Bob I think you should check your beliefs. http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2921 'Because This Is the Middle East' http://snipurl.com/pg9x Re: [biofuel] Re: Oil and Israel 3 Jun 2004 Keith Yo Fritz, Yeah, right on Fritz. And just to prove it your ethnic forebears killed off six million of these bloody Jews only to have the rest of us dumb westerners stop them just before they'd finished the job. Now it's up to the poor Palestinians with only suicide bombers and Katushya rockets to carry on where the rest of us left off. We need to force the Israelis to open these roads, tear down their walls and move back onto their own territory so that the bombers in civilian clothing have a fighting chance to get closer to Israeli settlements. At least let's have a level playing field here. After it's all over and the Palestinians have finally established their Muslim state we can allow a few Israeli refugees into western countries just as long as they toe the line and run the garbage collection systems for us. Good one, Fritz, Bob. - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Fritz Friesinger To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:33 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Check Your Beliefs Forewardet by Fritz -- Check Your Beliefs By Charley Reese 03/17/06 -- -- Let's play a fantasy game to check on our belief in human rights. Let's suppose that in a mythical state, a governor announced a campaign to punish African-Americans for alleged violence. Step one is to confiscate the land owned by African-Americans, evict them from it and use the land to build massive new subdivisions. Only white Protestant Christians may live in these subdivisions. Step two is to connect these all-white Protestant Christian settlements to each other by a highway on which African-Americans are forbidden to drive. To facilitate control, the automobile tags for African-Americans will be a different color from the tags issued to white motorists. Checkpoints would be set up all around the state capitol to search and harass African-Americans trying to enter. Would you support such a plan? Would you hail that mythical governor as a man of peace? Would you go to your church congregation and ask the members to send money to the occupants of these white settlements? Would you lobby the federal government to subsidize this new apartheid state in our midst? I don't think so. I think most Americans would consider such acts an abomination, un-American and a mockery of everything both Christianity and the United States stand for. Well, if you would condemn such acts here directed against African-Americans, why won't you condemn identical acts committed against the Palestinians by the state of Israel? Those settlements you hear about are built on Palestinian land, and they are for Jews only. New roads that Palestinians are forbidden to use connect them. The entire West Bank is riddled with Israeli checkpoints, where innocent Palestinians are daily humiliated and harassed. A trip to a nearby village can mean waiting in line at checkpoints for hours. Palestinians have died in these lines. After all of these humiliations, abuses, the houses destroyed, the children killed, the olive trees uprooted, how do you think Palestinians feel about Americans who support the Israelis no matter what they do to the Palestinians? Don't take my word about these abuses. Check out the Israeli human-rights organization at http://www.btselem.org/Englishwww.btselem.org/English. If you cannot condemn the flagrant abuses of Palestinians by the Israeli government, then you are
[Biofuel] What is happening?
I never, I never saw so little activities on the list before. Missing it. Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Telegraph - US could be going bankrupt
Kirk, Kotlikoff is not the first and will not be the last to point out the alarming discrepancies and the Americans are still hiding their heads in the sand. When we last discussed this, many suggested that Iraq and confiscating the second largest oil reserves, would be something of a help. Many of us suggested that it would not work that way, on the contrary, US is doing something it cannot afford. This becomes clearer for every day that passes. Some US corporations get a lot, but the average Americans are paying. Now it rather makes US morally bankrupt as well as financially. Hakan At 01:04 15/07/2006, you wrote: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/07/14/cnusa14.xmlhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/07/14/cnusa14.xml US 'could be going bankrupt' By Edmund Conway, Economics Editor (Filed: 14/07/2006) The United States is heading for bankruptcy, according to an extraordinary paper published by one of the key members of the country's central bank. A ballooning budget deficit and a pensions and welfare timebomb could send! the economic superpower into insolvency, according to research by Professor Laurence Kotlikoff for the Federal Reserve Bank of St Louis, a leading constituent of the US Federal Reserve. Prof Kotlikoff said that, by some measures, the US is already bankrupt. To paraphrase the Oxford English Dictionary, is the United States at the end of its resources, exhausted, stripped bare, destitute, bereft, wanting in property, or wrecked in consequence of failure to pay its creditors, he asked. According to his central analysis, the US government is, indeed, bankrupt, insofar as it will be unable to pay its creditors, who, in this context, are current and future generations to whom it has explicitly or implicitly promised future net payments of various kinds''. The budget deficit in the US is not massive. The Bush administration this week cut its forecasts for the fiscal shortfall this year by almost a third, saying it will come in at 2.3pc of gross domestic product. This is smaller than most European countries - including the UK - which have deficits north of 3pc of GDP. Prof Kotlikoff, who teaches at Boston University, says: The proper way to consider a country's solvency is to examine the lifetime fiscal burdens facing current and future generations. If these burdens exceed the resources of those generations, get close to doing so, or simply get so high as to preclude their full collection, the country's policy will be unsustainable and can constitute or lead to national bankruptcy. Does the United States fit this bill? No one knows for sure, but there are strong reasons to believe the United States may be going broke. Experts have calculated that the country's long-term fiscal gap between all future government spending and all future receipts will widen immensely as the Baby Boomer generation retires, and as the amount the state will have to spend on healthcare and pensions soars. The total fiscal gap could be an almost incomprehensible $65.9 trillion, according to a study by Professors Gokhale and Smetters. The figure is massive because President George W Bush has made major tax cuts in recent years, and because the bill for Medicare, which provides health insurance for the elderly, and Medicaid, which does likewise for the poor, will increase greatly due to demographics. Prof Kotlikoff said: This figure is more than five times US GDP and almost twice the size of national wealth. One way to wrap one's head around $65.9trillion is to ask what fiscal adjustments are needed to eliminate this red hole. The answers are terrifying. One solution is an immediate and permanent doubling of personal and corporate income taxes. Another is an immediate and permanent two-thirds cut in Social Security and Medicare benefits. A third alternative, were it feasible, would be to immediately and permanently cut all federal discretionary spending by 143pc. The scenario has serious implications for the dollar. If investors lose confidence in the US's future, and suspect the country may at some point allow inflation to erode away its debts, they may reduce their holdings of US Treasury bonds. Prof Kotlikoff said: The United States has experienced high rates of inflation in the past and appears to be running the same type of fiscal policies that engendered hyperinflations in 20 countries over the past century. Paul Ashworth, of Capital Economics, was more sanguine about the coming retirement of the Baby Boomer generation. For a start, the expected deterioration in the Federal budget owes more to rising per capita spending on health care than to changing demographics, he said. This can be contained if the political will is there. Similarly, the expected increase in social security spending can be controlled by reducing the growth rate of benefits. Expecting a fix now is probably asking too much of
Re: [Biofuel] smart car coming to US in 2008
They do have a 4 seater model already, it is selling in Europe for quite a while. Hakan At 08:06 02/07/2006, you wrote: Great idea but I think that they better make a four seater for the US market. Smart cars have been out for about a year in Canada and while really cool, I have a hard time imagining 2 average Americans in one ;) LOL, regards tallex Smart Car Coming to US in 2008 Launch by DaimlerChrysler http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1151818384.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] was..smart car coming to US in 2008
Tallex, The market for 250 pound people is very much smaller in Europe than in US and I think that it is not a primary target for SMART cars. Do not only look at one, try it and you will be surprised on how spacious it is for 2 people and how well it transport/park for urban dwellers. I do however agree on the problems in US, it is little space for the oversized chip and snack packs, that seems to be the essentials for US commuters. I am not a small person 186 centimeter and 96 kilo (which is too much), but I fit well in a Smart. I did however not consider the image problem. Hakan At 09:15 02/07/2006, you wrote: That's great Haken, so if they already have a four seater, it is not to much of a stretch to do a minivan version as well and still be considered a smart car? Also, I've seen the two seater and while really cool, there is no way you are going to fit 2 - 250 pound people side by side, they would look like circus clowns stuffed into the seats. People want utility in their vehicles and still be as efficient as possible. tallex Smart Car Coming to US in 2008 Launch by DaimlerChrysler http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1151818384.news ---Original Message--- From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Biofuel] smart car coming to US in 2008 Sent: 02 Jul '06 06:56 They do have a 4 seater model already, it is selling in Europe for quite a while. Hakan At 08:06 02/07/2006, you wrote: Great idea but I think that they better make a four seater for the US market. Smart cars have been out for about a year in Canada and while really cool, I have a hard time imagining 2 average Americans in one ;) LOL, regards tallex Smart Car Coming to US in 2008 Launch by DaimlerChrysler http://www.alternate-energy.net/N/news.php?detail=n1151818384.news Get your daily alternative energy news Alternate Energy Resource Network 1000+ news sources-resources updated daily http://www.alternate-energy.net Next Generation Grid http://groups.yahoo.com/group/next_generation_grid/ Tomorrow-energy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tomorrow-energy/ Alternative Energy Politics http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Alternative_Energy_Politics/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Prions and junk science
Chip, What ever it is, most of it has a tendency to show up in my Eudora Junk Box. LOL Hakan At 20:01 14/06/2006, you wrote: Just in case anyone cares (at all) I, and I know others immediately tune out anything that has the phrase 'junk science' in it anywhere. The phrase was useful for about 4 months, many many years ago. It has long since lost any context. It is a pejorative term, initially used to describe logical fallacies masquerading as scientific explanations. In this sense, (from wikipedia) Affirming the consequent If someone is human (P), then she is mortal (Q). Anna is mortal (Q). Therefore Anna is human (P). But in fact Anna can be a cat; very much a mortal, but not a human one. This would be junk science. The term 'junk science' was QUICKLY co-opted by the Fred Singer's of the world (Heritage Institute) to dismiss stuff like a causality between 'second hand smoke' and health problems. Junk Science is a idealogical term, a heavily loaded one at that. So, when attempting to put a point across, one may do well to avoid using this phrase. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Help with graphics
Keith, Send me a sample, I have an old version of visio somewhere, before I substituted if for smartdraw. I have a go and if smartdraw will take them, I can convert them to another format. Hakan At 10:38 11/06/2006, you wrote: Hello all Someone sent me some interesting diagrams, but I can't extract them. He said: the diagrams i have are microsoft visio doc.s but they may convert to html. We use Macs and I can usually get stuff out of Windoze docs, but not this time. Would anyone be able to get tiff's or jpg's or gif's out of an MS Visio doc if I sent them the file? Thanks much Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Oil was first used for lamps and steam boilers. The diesel oil is a by product of the refining process to get gasoline and was used as for lamps, cleaning and heating. A cleaner version of diesel is used for dry cleaning. I do not remember the amount of different products that you get from crude, but you can find it if you google. Short, No, Diesel did not invent the fuel, he was actually looking for using coal dust. His interest or lack of it in petroleum products was understandable. Prohibition was only about drunkenness and wood alcohol can be used if you filter it with active coal to remove harmful oils. After prohibition there are many ways and rules to protect the tax income from alcoholic drinks. Gasoline as product, was developed for Ford T and as a cheaper fuel to replace ethanol. Ethanol has always been an alternative fuel, until they started to use rubber parts that was dissolved by ethanol. Similar development with the diesel engine. I do not know if the choice of rubber was intentional, to secure the use of petroleum products, but it might have been. Hakan At 04:49 09/06/2006, you wrote: Mike The oil engine was in use long before Rudolf Diesel. Bit of chicken or egg. Did Rudolf invent the fuel? He certainly reduced the size of the oil engine principal to enable it to fit into land transport use from Sea and machine shop energy sources. I have been unable to locate any part where he actually invented the mineral oil known as Diesel oil. I can only find references to Peanut/vegetable oils in his early engines. Can anyone point me in the direction where he invented the Diesel oil? Prohibition was to stop home making of fuel or to stop alcoholic drinks or one was to cover the other? In history wood alcohol was included why? Henry Ford was a ruthless marketing and business man. (Read some of Edzels conflicts with his father before his early death). Fuel was sold in cans. How do you sell cars to people well away from fuel sources? Make them able to run on multi fuels, until Prohibition. The dates are about correct, late model T and early model A, AA and AAA. Note the model AAA (Triple A) was still run on ethanol as was not outlawed as far as my trips and research shows. The globe was already controlled by the oil industry. Sloan, the most powerfull man at the time, could not perhaps change this or was in agreement with the oil industry. * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. * Two decades later, Henry Ford was designing his Model Ts to run on ethanol made from hemp. He envisioned the entire mass-produced Model T automobile line would run on ethanol derived from crops grown in the U.S. * Even in the 1920s, the oil industry had massive lobbying power in Washington. Lobbyists convinced policymakers to create laws favoring petroleum based fuels while disgarding the ethanol option. * Nearly a century later, amidst oil wars in the Middle East, Global Warming, and a nearly depleted oil supply, the U.S. government is finally shifting attention to fuels that are more along the lines of Diesel and Ford's original ideas. * In an interview with the New York Times in 1925, Henry Ford said: The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumac out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything. There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years. Whose water is it? *Learn more:* http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_658.cfm http://alerts.organicconsumers.org/trk/click?ref=zqtbkk3um_0-ax332x3239551; ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] A Framework for Understanding Global Conflict and Cooperation
Keith, I am not arguing, because it is more complex and do not want to argue it. I do think that this comment, even as it is referred to a third person, should not have been done. To leave such a comment, without mention how simple and utterly stupid it is, is wrong. Maybe I should have said this straight, instead of my too complex post. I cannot understand that a comment that is published on list, becomes an off list comment, because you say so. Off list is off list and we would never seen it, if we saw it, it is on list and not protected by an off list remark. My postings are also off list comments to an off list posting, if this is the norm. LOL Hakan At 08:43 09/06/2006, you wrote: Keith, I have to differ with that women find the ruthlessness attractive as such. It is natural and built in, that women are attracted to strong men or what is assumed to be strong men. This because she in the past needed protection in her role as child bearer, so the instinct as female part of the specie would seek that protection. The modern society has changed the roles somewhat and the definition of strength, but the instincts are still there. Ruthless persons are often judged to be strong and therefore attractive. Hakan Hakan, you're just arguing about a point in Jai's post: Kurt Vonnegut asserts that it is a weakness in the species that women find this ruthlessness attractive, but that is off topic. It is indeed off-topic, and it's a lot more complex than that anyway. Why don't you read what Greenspan and Shanker have to say? Best Keith At 06:28 09/06/2006, you wrote: Jai Haissman very kindly sent me this paper. It follows on from a previous discussion where Jai cited this research but the paper wasn't available. Now it's online: http://icdl.com/toward_a_psychology_of_interdepe.htm The Interdisciplinary Council on Developmental and Learning Disorders Toward a Psychology of Interdependency: A Framework for Understanding Global Conflict and Cooperation Stanley I. Greenspan, M.D. and Stuart G. Shanker, D.Phil. Over the last decade, shared dangers, as well as shared communications and economies -- for the first time any one group can, through nuclear, biological, or ecological events, destroy life for all other groups -- have brought individuals from all parts of the world together into a closer interdependency than at any time before in human history. This growing interdependency can result in greater social fragmentation, more extreme types of polarized beliefs, and greater hostility; or it can serve as a catalyst for humans to develop new adaptive levels of personal and social organization. The psychology of interdependency will characterize the elements of these personal and social organizations to help us understand and prepare for a rapidly advancing interdependent future. (18,200 words) - Very interesting read, IMO. Here's Jai's previous message: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg30705.html [biofuel] Re: Nothing ... it's people Was: What's wrong with corporations? Jai Haissman CR, SEP 27 Dec 2003 15:34:40 - Greetings, I have been surfing this list for some time and felt moved to weigh in here. I hope this is not too off topic, but I had some interest in the following statements. Mostly because it speaks to why should we be interested in making an environmental fuel at all, if there are no consequences. Consider the following statement: I know if there were no consequences to my actions, I would certainly act differently. We have a christmas party at work every year. I COULD get drunk, punch out my boss and take a leak in the punch bowl. Realistically, there would be no legal consequences (my boss is not the kind of guy to call the cops for something stupid like that). But I didn't do it. Why not? Because there would have been consequences. My coworkers would not have liked me anymore, life at work would have been much more difficult. It would have been socially unacceptable. The premise here is that without consequences, we are basically opportunists, and will seek our advantage without a care. This thinking is not correct, but it is popular and was called Lexus Talionus - law of the claw - by the political philosopher Hobbes... or Locke, I can't remember which. The basic assertion is that we exist in a state of nature where it is eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth, and that the only way to contain this brutality is through the social contract of laws that insure a commodious life. This outdated and psychologically uninformed political philosophy is the basis for present day policymaking that intends to repress and contain what would otherwise be a dangerous population of potential miscreants. Laws from this orientation seek to make consequences as a deterrent
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Jan, You are right about the time before EC, I have personal experiences from this. When we needed the help it was very difficult to get it and we could not pursue it. Once when we were a proven success, they asked us and was upset when we said that we did not need any help from them. I must say that we had the same experiences from the Dutch banks also, Sweden was not the only ones who supported entrepreneurs. UK was the only country that had a good support program for software innovation and development at that time, around 30 years ago. Once when we were a proven success, they all cued up in offering us necessary help. In the end we were very happy that none of them were involved, including the venture capitalists. Hakan At 14:02 09/06/2006, you wrote: Before Sweden´s entry into the EC, the system was built upon shared risks. It could be very difficult to have grants from the official funds. The first condition was almost always that your bank should be involved. Then maybe, you could have some grants - anways smaller than 50% of the project budget- from at least two of the official funds. This system was working out of incompetence and cowardness. The projects were always analyzed by the funds, but the general assumption was that the bank should contribute. And the banks are never interested in evaluating projects, they are interested in securities for their loans. So, this basically meant, that if your security was not good enough, nobody else would contribute either. There were exceptions though. The boards of the funds realized that they had the power to guide the development according to their own desires by giving grants to projects that would serve the temporary (political or administrative) wishes .How much lasting and pay-backing things that were created from this system, I think nobody knows. Jan - Original Message - From: lres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, Thank you for the earlier reply. I don't suppose you would know if the following is correct or not. Australia had the maximum grant to any inventor set at AUD10,000. This was the maximum grant to enable development of an inventors idea. From memory the Swedes had a department that would analyse an idea and if seen to be possible then that department could be asked to assist the inventor to a much greater degree than the AUD10,000. This could be why the cassette was held by such interest and other every day consumable as well as technologically based items. Not much in the way of books, and only slow online here. Can you remember the late 60's and 70's when this system was meant to have been operating in Sweden? Doug. Håkan, it is obvious that no patent or manufacturing lisence will last for one houndrad years, espcecially considering the development of the diesel engine. But Scania is the inheritar of the original diesel engine. However, it is not flattering for us Swedes to be so historically involved and possibly even having promoted the petroleum substitute for the diesel engine. Particulary not, since there is a common imagnination that the discovery of petroleum made it possible for the combustion engine to arise, because of the unique properties of petroleum. Jan - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, Manufacturing rights as a whole to the diesel engine cannot be owned by Scania, only certain modifications that are done the last 25 years. It is no legal way, that I know of, to protect the original diesel engine for 100 years. The only legal way to protect manufacturing rights, is through patents and even they are not protected in certain countries. Patents are only valid for 25 years and the normal way is to patent modifications/enhancements to the original patent to prolong the patent protection of the most competitive product. Diesel might have had the idea as student, but he had financing for his development from the German coal industry. The contract was to develop his engine to run on coal dust. That is why there are always mentioning of coal dust, in conjunction with diesel. Kerrosene was at the time and today, used for lamps and heating. It is also a quality of kerrosene used for dry cleaning. The quality of crude that are economical for gasoline, will end before the crude suitable for fuel for diesel engine. If normal demand principles are governing the situation, the price gap between diesel and gasoline should widen in the future. It depends also on the space heating demands, where heating oil (diesel) is used for small buildings. Large buildings and Area centrals, use heavy oil and it will last longer than diesel. When we are talking of oil depletion, it is a very
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Jan, For us it turned out very good anyway. We sold for value comparable to 500 Million $ in todays money, shared by founders and key staff. A nice and good transaction for everybody. Some of the partners went on and formed a company called Small World (facility management software) and sold it in a very good deal to GE, who was a major client, a couple of years ago. Also an example of good balance between founders and staff interest, all cashed in on hard work and innovation, with the same model that I introduced for the first adventure. Hakan At 15:27 09/06/2006, you wrote: Håkan, this is a terribly low performance for any nation which claims supporting entrepreneurs. And think of all the people busy with not supporting what they are suppose to support! What is the point of such a system and such a mentality ? Jan - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, You are right about the time before EC, I have personal experiences from this. When we needed the help it was very difficult to get it and we could not pursue it. Once when we were a proven success, they asked us and was upset when we said that we did not need any help from them. I must say that we had the same experiences from the Dutch banks also, Sweden was not the only ones who supported entrepreneurs. UK was the only country that had a good support program for software innovation and development at that time, around 30 years ago. Once when we were a proven success, they all cued up in offering us necessary help. In the end we were very happy that none of them were involved, including the venture capitalists. Hakan At 14:02 09/06/2006, you wrote: Before Sweden´s entry into the EC, the system was built upon shared risks. It could be very difficult to have grants from the official funds. The first condition was almost always that your bank should be involved. Then maybe, you could have some grants - anways smaller than 50% of the project budget- from at least two of the official funds. This system was working out of incompetence and cowardness. The projects were always analyzed by the funds, but the general assumption was that the bank should contribute. And the banks are never interested in evaluating projects, they are interested in securities for their loans. So, this basically meant, that if your security was not good enough, nobody else would contribute either. There were exceptions though. The boards of the funds realized that they had the power to guide the development according to their own desires by giving grants to projects that would serve the temporary (political or administrative) wishes .How much lasting and pay-backing things that were created from this system, I think nobody knows. Jan - Original Message - From: lres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 12:45 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, Thank you for the earlier reply. I don't suppose you would know if the following is correct or not. Australia had the maximum grant to any inventor set at AUD10,000. This was the maximum grant to enable development of an inventors idea. From memory the Swedes had a department that would analyse an idea and if seen to be possible then that department could be asked to assist the inventor to a much greater degree than the AUD10,000. This could be why the cassette was held by such interest and other every day consumable as well as technologically based items. Not much in the way of books, and only slow online here. Can you remember the late 60's and 70's when this system was meant to have been operating in Sweden? Doug. Håkan, it is obvious that no patent or manufacturing lisence will last for one houndrad years, espcecially considering the development of the diesel engine. But Scania is the inheritar of the original diesel engine. However, it is not flattering for us Swedes to be so historically involved and possibly even having promoted the petroleum substitute for the diesel engine. Particulary not, since there is a common imagnination that the discovery of petroleum made it possible for the combustion engine to arise, because of the unique properties of petroleum. Jan - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 9:37 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future Jan, Manufacturing rights as a whole to the diesel engine cannot be owned by Scania, only certain modifications that are done the last 25 years. It is no legal way, that I know of, to protect the original diesel engine for 100 years. The only legal way to protect manufacturing rights, is through patents and even they are not protected in certain
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future redux
Mike W, You are right!!! I did not realize that the plastic surgery advanced to this level, or is it a brain transplant? Hakan At 14:22 08/06/2006, you wrote: Is Bush really Dan Quayle? Why wouldn't an enhanced deterrent, a more stable peace, a better prospect to denying the ones who enter conflict in the first place to have a reduction of offensive systems and an introduction to defensive capability. I believe that is the route this country will eventually go. --V.P. D.Q. Republicans understand the importance of bondage between a mother and child. --V.P. D.Q. Mars is essentially in the same orbit... somewhat the same distance from the Sun, which is very important. We have seen pictures where there are canals, we believe, and water. If there is water, that means there is oxygen. If oxygen, that means we can breathe. --V.P. D.Q. Hawaii has always been a very pivotal role in the Pacific. It is *in* the Pacific. It is a part of the United States that is an island that is right here. --V.P. D.Q., Hawaii, September 1989 What a terrible thing to have lost one's mind. Or not to have a mind at all. How true that is. --V.P. D.Q. winning friends while speaking to the United Negro College Fund You all look like happy campers to me. Happy campers you are, happy campers you have been, and, as far as I am concerned, happy campers you will always be. --V.P. D.Q., to the American Samoans, whose capital Quayle pronounces Pogo Pogo. Quayle stumbled in response to a question about his opinion of the Holocaust. He said it was an obscene period in our nation's history. Then, trying to clarify his remark, Quayle said he meant this century's history and added a confusing comment. We all lived in this century, I didn't live in this century, he said. --V.P. D.Q. We expect them [Salvadoran officials] to work toward the elimination of human rights. --V.P. D.Q. El Salvador is a democracy so it's not surprising that there are many voices to be heard here. Yet in my conversations with Salvadorans... I have heard a single voice. --V.P. D.Q. I believe we are on an irreversible trend toward more freedom and democracy--but that could change. --V.P. D.Q. One word sums up probably the responsibility of any vice president, and that one word is to be prepared. --V.P. D.Q. If we do not succeed, then we run the risk of failure. --V.P. D.Q., to the Phoenix Republican Forum, March 1990 It's rural America. It's where I came from. We always refer to ourselves as real America. Rural America, real America, real, real, America. --V.P. D.Q. Target prices? How that works? I know quite a bit about farm policy. I come from Indiana, which is a farm state. Deficiency payments - which are the key--that is what gets money into the farmer's hands. We got loan, uh, rates, we got target, uh, prices, uh, I have worked very closely with my senior colleague, (Indiana Sen.) Richard Lugar, making sure that the farmers of Indiana are taken care of. --V.P. D.Q. on being asked to define the term target prices. Quayle's press secretary then cut short the press conference, after two minutes and 30 seconds. I not going to focus on what I have done in the past what I stand for, what I articulate to the American people. The American people will judge me on what I am saying and what I have done in the last 12 years in the Congress. --V.P. D.Q. I want to be Robin to Bush's Batman. --V.P. D.Q. We should develop anti-satellite weapons because we could not have prevailed without them in Red Storm Rising. --V.P. D.Q. The US has a vital interest in that area of the country. --V.P. D.Q. Referring to Latin America. Japan is an important ally of ours. Japan and the United States of the Western industrialized capacity, 60 percent of the GNP, two countries. That's a statement in and of itself. --V.P. D.Q. May our nation continue to be the beakon of hope to the world. --The Quayle's 1989 Christmas card. [Not a beacon of literacy, though.] Well, it looks as if the top part fell on the bottom part. --V.P. D.Q. referring to the collapsed section of the 880 freeway after the San Francisco earthquake of 1989. [this may be a joke; the source is unclear, but it's still funny] ...getting [cruise missiles] more accurate so that we can have precise precision. --V.P. D.Q. referring to his legislative work dealing with cruise missiles I can identify with steelworkers. I can identify with workers that have had a difficult time. --V.P. D.Q. addressing workers at an Ohio steel plant,1988 [I will never have] another Jimmy Carter grain embargo, Jimmy, Jimmy Carter, Jimmy Carter grain embargo, Jimmy Carter grain embargo. --V.P. D.Q. during the Bentson debate Certainly, I know what to do, and when I am Vice President--and I will be--there will be contingency plans under different sets of situations and I tell you what, I'm not going to go out and hold a news conference about it. I'm going to put it in a safe and keep it there! Does that answer your question? --V.P. D.Q.
Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future
Keith, Coal dust is the key, because it was the coal industry who paid for the development of the diesel engine. Observing that coal dust is almost explosive, they had they idea that it could be sold and used for an engine, instead of piling up as useless trash mountains. Diesel did not successfully manage to develop the coal dust engine, but instead it was running on almost anything else. Hakan At 16:14 08/06/2006, you wrote: * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. Aarghh!!! Not the old Rudolf and the Peanut Oil fairytale again! Facts: 1893 Rudolf Diesel patents the diesel engine. 1900 Rudolf Diesel is twice awarded the Grand Prix at both Paris World Fairs (1900 and 1910) for inventing and developing his engine. But no peanut oil. The true story: ... excerpts from some of Dr Diesels' work, that he published 1912 and 1913, where he states that it was the Otto Company that ran one of his engines on peanut oil at the request of the French government during the 1900 World Fair. He later conducted some trails where he determined fuel consumption and assessed operability. He also mentions similar successful experiments in St. Petersburg using castor oil and animal oils. - Darren Hill It WASN'T him! I recently borrowed his book The Development of the Diesel Engine -afaik the last one he published until he drowned himself in the Channel. All kinds of fuels that had been tested are described there, from coal dust over weird chemical mixtures that had been sent to Diesel by the industry to all sorts of crude oil and even tar-oil. Vegoil just got about 4 lines- remarking that it was the French Otto-Company (yes the Otto-engine!) that ran Diesel's engine on peanut oil: The engine was built for crude oil and was used without any modification on vegoilit worked so well that only a few insiders took notice of this insignificant circumstance. (Diesel, Rudolf. 1913. Die Entstehung des Dieselmotors 1st reprint by Braun, Hans-Joachim (Ed). 1984. Moers: Steiger. Page 115.). - Stephan Helbig Best Keith * Two decades later, Henry Ford was designing his Model Ts to run on ethanol made from hemp. He envisioned the entire mass-produced Model T automobile line would run on ethanol derived from crops grown in the U.S. * Even in the 1920s, the oil industry had massive lobbying power in Washington. Lobbyists convinced policymakers to create laws favoring petroleum based fuels while disgarding the ethanol option. * Nearly a century later, amidst oil wars in the Middle East, Global Warming, and a nearly depleted oil supply, the U.S. government is finally shifting attention to fuels that are more along the lines of Diesel and Ford's original ideas. * In an interview with the New York Times in 1925, Henry Ford said: The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumac out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything. There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years. Whose water is it? *Learn more:* http://www.organicconsumers.org/2006/article_658.cfm http://alerts.organicconsumers.org/trk/click?ref=zqtbkk3um_0-ax332 x3239551 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] price
DO NOT OPEN THE ATTACHMENT, I AM QUITE SURE IT IS A VIRUS! Hakan At 19:27 08/06/2006, you wrote: February price ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] price DO NOT OPEN ATTACHEMENT!!!!!!!!!
DO NOT OPEN THE ATTACHMENT, I AM QUITE SURE IT IS A VIRUS! Hakan At 19:27 08/06/2006, you wrote: February price ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] price DO NOT OPEN ATTACHEMENT!!!!!!!!!
In that case you might have something that caught it on the way, maybe your ISP have virus protection for you. Hakan At 19:48 08/06/2006, you wrote: what attachment? In fact the only biofuel email I have with the subject price is from you. Maybe someone spoofed the biofuel address Kirk Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DO NOT OPEN THE ATTACHMENT, I AM QUITE SURE IT IS A VIRUS! Hakan At 19:27 08/06/2006, you wrote: February price ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Ethanol for diesel engines
Keith, If I remembered right, the Swedish diesel buses are running on a wood alcohol mix, with some sort of additive. In Sweden it is now more and more common that the buses use biofuel. Hakan At 18:47 07/06/2006, you wrote: Hi Tomas Hi, this one fuel combination is interesting. I've never heard about such possibility before: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/xcelplus_acquir.html -- Tomas Juknevicius Fuel-Cycle Energy and Emission Impacts of Ethanol-Diesel Blends in Urban Buses and Farming Tractors, (July 2003, 992kb pdf) http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/TA/280.pdf The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel by S.W. Mathewson Chapter 3 UTILIZATION OF ALCOHOL FUELS Diesel Engines http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual3.html Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] R-2000 program gets mixed reviews
Who said that you should not use controlled ventilation and proper construction? Hakan At 16:49 05/06/2006, you wrote: Hi Guys; I had also heard that sealing up a house that tight leads to indoor air quality issues (especially if the ubiquitous OSB and MDFB materials are used along with all the carpet, and other textiles that are offgassing VOC's for a few years)and then heat exchangers are needed to recover heat from exhaust air and in the end it is not a great idea all things considered. I am enrolled in a course this summer on how to build a house from straw bales. I am also interested in what you talked about Fritz. I have also heard about rammed earth construction but don't know anything about it. I wonder if it is even suitable for cold climates?? Joe Fritz Friesinger wrote: Hi Darryl, the R2000 Code wich says beside others :houses constructed using airtight seals and thick insulation that keeps heat from leaking away is not the very best way of constructing a energie efficient Home,because those Homes require forced Air Heating/Cooling! In Northamerica the Magic Formula seemes to be airtigth wrapings outside and Vaporbarriers inside the House,but the most energie efficient houses are Homes built with natural Materials who dont reqire Vaporbarriers (Cob- Log-or Straw houses) Myself i am trying to get people interestet in my project of building homes with double Log Walls from Larchwood (very cheep availible) filled with natural Insulation wich keeps the Wall breeding.The key is not to produce a thawpoint! This technique gives a totally natural Klimate in the home,better tha a handcraftet Loghome! I got sofare the major equipment together the Place/Workshop,but the constant Cashflow problem is slowly killing me! The conclusion therefore is,nowbody is interestet in good workmanship and good technique,everything is measured on quick return and spend al least to get the most!And this is the real american way of life! If you want to see my Portfolio go to www.traditionalwoodwork.ca http://www.traditionalwoodwork.ca Fritz - Original Message - *From:* Darryl McMahon mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sunday, June 04, 2006 11:43 AM *Subject:* [Biofuel] R-2000 program gets mixed reviews R-2000 is the house construction standard developed in Canada decades ago to minimize energy use via insulation, weather-sealing and other technologies. Uptake has been minimal. Last I heard, less than 1/2 of one percent of new home construction in Canada meets this standard. Pity, because study after study shows it reduces life-time ownership costs, and would make a huge difference in making Canadians somewhat less of energy pigs. = http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2006/05/28/pf-1602659.html May 28, 2006 By DEAN BEEBY OTTAWA (CP) - One of Canada's oldest energy-conservation programs - the R-2000 standard for new homes - is under threat after an internal analysis found that very few homebuyers even care about it. The 25-year-old insulation standard has become one of the Kyoto-related programs that the new Tory government has put on hold as it conducts a sweeping review of greenhouse-gas spending. With rare exceptions, home-buying consumers are not interested in GHG (greenhouse gas) emissions reduction aspects of housing, and are usually less interested in energy-efficiency than in other features of the house, says an internal report on R-2000, obtained under the Access to Information Act. About 10,000 homes have been built in Canada to the R-2000 standard since the program was introduced in 1981. Interest peaked in 1993, with 1,527 houses constructed using airtight seals and thick insulation that keeps heat from leaking away, but in recent years only about 300 have been certified each year. The standard originated in 1978, in the aftermath of the oil-price shocks, with a demonstration house built by the engineering faculty at the University of Saskatchewan that used half the energy of typical houses. But consumers have been wary of the standard. One federal study a decade ago found that energy savings were less than the higher construction and financing costs of R-2000, and that better returns were available in the stock market. Since 1995, the share of new housing built to the standard has fallen to a fraction of one per cent, even as energy prices rose substantially. Ottawa tried to put the program on a new footing after signing the Kyoto Protocol in 1997, making R-2000 part of basket of initiatives intended to help
Re: [Biofuel] R-2000 programm
Fritz, I do not understand this dialogue, when you have a whole nation who on average use 1/3 of energy compared to US and 1/4 compared to Canada, based on equivalent to R-2000 from 1978 and R-1000 from 1958. I like log homes and your sales pitch have some values for home buyers, but it is not a nation wide recipe for conserving energy. I really hope that you sell more log homes, but doubt that they alone will have any major impact on the energy use. A country renew their building stock with between 1 to 2% a year and any serious conservation effort must therefore include much more than new constructions. Methods that can be implemented in refurbishing of buildings are therefore much more important. I doubt that log homes will fit very well in this picture. Hakan At 20:10 05/06/2006, you wrote: Hi Joe, you are rigth on with your comment! ThoseAirtigth Homes need to be serviced by mechanical Aircontrol,wich create again a energieconsumption by itself.Considerin lots of fixt Windows and the great ability of american Windowmakers to trow away all phisical Laws,you end up with Windows of sometimes very big dimention and ridicule small openings for Ventilation at the Bottom of the Windows,so the warm,humid air stays trappet in the upper part of the room or house.It is common knowledge, it takes more energie to keep humid air warm than to reheat cold air!Drywallconstructin is creating also a unhaelty klimat,so you need a humidifier and so on. Double Loghomes (machined dry Lumber T+G) can be built to Standards of Low-energie Homes with K-Value of 0,19W/m2k now i havnt been able to convert this into our R-Value but i am certain,it beats R 2000 by far. Combined a good craftet double Loghome with my 68mm Windows,you have there a Energie efficien home. Fore the Larchwood is to say,Larch is probably the best wood in the northern Hemisphere but have never beeing commercially used because it was in the old times to havy to float and it is so darn hard,that carpenters could not nail it. But with good machines its a peace of cake!There is an other apect talking for Larchwood: one dont need to treat the wood chemically for protection,the most you need to du is applying a coat of Linseedoil (for esthetics only) Windows and Doors from Larch are very durable to. If you consider the Whole Picture: Larch built homes are higly energyefficient, made from a readyly availible lowcost Source and for people with allergies the ideal Home.Combine this with excellent workmanship and you get a result that stand up for centurys (I know Larchbuilt homes with up to 800 years of age) I have no experiance in rammed eart construction,but would raise some doubts about such a technique for canadian climate Fritz ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Why foreign aid is failing
Keith, Looking at is this way, we can be happy that US aid per capita is much lower than many other developed economies. It is apart from this, a shame to use the little that they give, in the way they do it. Hakan At 17:39 05/06/2006, you wrote: Well, I'm by no means an expert, but I have worked quite a bit in the foreign aid field. It wasn't a total failure by any means, but I'd say out failures outweighed our successes. On the other hand, I suppose you could say that very much of it is a great success, since so much foreign aid is unabashedly aimed at benefiting US interests, like other countries' tied aid. My father, who is a PhD in Development Economics, and was known as a radical for such dangerous ideas as arguing that money is not the only metric that can be used to determine development, once observed: The US has never realized that you can't just go in and impose prosperity Yeah. Or democracy, eh? In addition to the articles below I recommend the work of Joseph Stiglitz and William Easterly. Both former World Bank officials. http://snipurl.com/rde2 biofuel - Search results for 'stiglitz' http://snipurl.com/rde4 biofuel - Search results for 'Easterly' Anup Shah gives a good overview, as usual. Best Keith -Weaver Keith Addison wrote: See also: http://snipurl.com/rcij [Biofuel] Bushfood http://snipurl.com/rcik [Biofuel] Myth: More US aid will help the hungry http://snipurl.com/rcim Re: [Biofuel] US Foreign aid Food Dumping [Aid] Maintains Poverty http://snipurl.com/rcig [Biofuel] The US and Foreign Aid Assistance http://snipurl.com/rcih [Biofuel] Famines as Commercial Opportunity http://snipurl.com/rcii [Biofuel] Famine As Commerce http://snipurl.com/rcin [Biofuel] Inequality in wealth - New at Anup Shah's Global Issues web site. http://www.globalissues.org Home * Trade-Related Issues * Sustainable Development * US Foreign Aid Is foreign aid failing because of the lack of accountability of donors as well as problems in recipient countries? Much is said of the corruption, lack of democracy and other ills in developing countries as the reasons for aid and other forms of generous assistance never working. But, could it also be that the type of foreign aid (the conditions and prescriptions tied to the aid) is also a problem? Furthermore, there is very little accountability to the poor countries if the prescriptions and policies themselves are not the right ones and good intentions fail. This and other issues are explored further in the updated foreign aid section. http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp Governments Cutting Back on Promised Responsibilities * Rich Nations Agreed at UN to 0.7% of GNP To Aid * Almost all rich nations fail this obligation * Some donate many dollars, but are low on GNI percent * Aid beginning to increase but still way below obligations * Foreign Aid Numbers in Charts and Graphs * Side note on private contributions * Side Note on Private Remittances * Adjusting Aid Numbers to Factor Private Contributions, and more * Ranking the Rich based on Commitment to Development * Private donations and philanthropy * Aid money is actually way below what has been promised * Are numbers the only issue? * The Changing Definition of Aid Reveals a much Deeper Decline than What Numbers Alone Can Show * Aid is Actually Hampering Development * Aid has been a foreign policy tool to aid the donor not the recipient * Aid And Militarism * Aid Money Often Tied to Various Restrictive Conditions * More Money Is Transferred From Poor Countries to Rich, Than From Rich To Poor * Aid Amounts Dwarfed by Effects of First World Subsidies, Third World Debt, Unequal Trade, etc * But aid could be beneficial * Trade and Aid * Improving Economic Infrastructure * Use aid to Empower, not to Prescribe * Rich donor countries and aid bureaucracies are not accountable * Democracy-building is fundamental, but harder in many developing countries * Failed foreign aid and continued poverty: well-intentioned mistakes, calculated geopolitics, or a mix? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] an apology
Mike, Thanks and you have done no harm in any way. Hakan At 22:18 05/06/2006, you wrote: Hi everyone, I've been thinking about a few posts I made a short time ago. Looking back, it is clear that frustrations in my personal life were vented toward the biofuels group. I made inappropriate remarks and baseless political positions in response to messages from Hakan and Keith. Whatever my reasons, the remarks I made had no place in the biofuels group and I sincerely apologize. Most of all, I apologize to Hakan and Keith for being the recipients of such messages. They were angry, antagonistic, and offered no contribution except to poison the culture within the group. I hope to make it up to you. Respectfully, Mike Redler ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] R-2000 program gets mixed reviews
Fritz, I agree with you, but it has very little to do with the insulation standard. In Sweden we have special ventilation windows, and often mechanical ventilation with heat pump recuperation, very energy efficient even for one family homes. The ventilation windows are used for the rapid room ventilation that you want during cleaning etc. Windows are also three glass in the new 1978 standards, in which we were partially involved. After the 1973 crises, we participated in calculating several experiment houses, with our simulation software, some of them with insufficient ventilation and health, mold problems, etc. The result, among other things, were the ventilation/heat pump recuperation units, which also produces hot water, that now are available from all major suppliers and frequently used. There are also more advanced solutions with storage recuperation. The R-2000 is a good standard and quite optimized, higher insulation standard is very difficult to make functionally working and/or cost effective. . Hakan At 13:17 06/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, the thing is not about controlled Ventilation,but more about mechanical controlled Ventilation! Here the replaced20 years ago Windows in our local Schools to install mosttly Fix Panes with very little openings on the Bottoms of the fixed Panes,to find out after 10 Years of use,that the Airducts hade all beeing contaminated! now they ripped everything out and call for new Windows.And guess who is the Architect... the same guy who did the job at first.At the time he dismissed my arguments about proper Ventilation and called me outdatad since in modern times Ventilation is done mechanical.Today they call for PVC Windows!How can you figth stupidity? Fritz - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Hakan Falk To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] R-2000 program gets mixed reviews Who said that you should not use controlled ventilation and proper construction? Hakan At 16:49 05/06/2006, you wrote: Hi Guys; I had also heard that sealing up a house that tight leads to indoor air quality issues (especially if the ubiquitous OSB and MDFB materials are used along with all the carpet, and other textiles that are offgassing VOC's for a few years)and then heat exchangers are needed to recover heat from exhaust air and in the end it is not a great idea all things considered. I am enrolled in a course this summer on how to build a house from straw bales. I am also interested in what you talked about Fritz. I have also heard about rammed earth construction but don't know anything about it. I wonder if it is even suitable for cold climates?? Joe Fritz Friesinger wrote: Hi Darryl, the R2000 Code wich says beside others :houses constructed using airtight seals and thick insulation that keeps heat from leaking away is not the very best way of constructing a energie efficient Home,because those Homes require forced Air Heating/Cooling! In Northamerica the Magic Formula seemes to be airtigth wrapings outside and Vaporbarriers inside the House,but the most energie efficient houses are Homes built with natural Materials who dont reqire Vaporbarriers (Cob- Log-or Straw houses) Myself i am trying to get people interestet in my project of building homes with double Log Walls from Larchwood (very cheep availible) filled with natural Insulation wich keeps the Wall breeding.The key is not to produce a thawpoint! This technique gives a totally natural Klimate in the home,better tha a handcraftet Loghome! I got sofare the major equipment together the Place/Workshop,but the constant Cashflow problem is slowly killing me! The conclusion therefore is,nowbody is interestet in good workmanship and good technique,everything is measured on quick return and spend al least to get the most!And this is the real american way of life! If you want to see my Portfolio go to http://www.traditionalwoodwork.cawww.traditionalwoodwork.ca http://www.traditionalwoodwork.ca Fritz - Original Message - *From:* Darryl McMahon mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sunday, June 04, 2006 11:43 AM *Subject:* [Biofuel] R-2000 program gets mixed reviews R-2000 is the house construction standard developed in Canada decades ago to minimize energy use via insulation, weather-sealing and other technologies. Uptake has been minimal. Last I heard, less than 1/2 of one percent of new home construction in Canada meets this standard. Pity, because study after study shows it reduces life-time ownership costs, and would make a huge difference in making Canadians somewhat
Re: [Biofuel] R-2000 programm
Fritz, If it is about wind and humidity barriers, I did not misread you. Insulation is quite useless over a very small dimension 50 to 100 mm, if you do not take the opportunity to control the then dominant air and humidity carried energy losses. This does not mean that you are forced to make unhealthy constructions and ventilation with heat recuperation is a very good and extremely efficient solution. To get to high efficiency constructions, you have to use the techniques of closed constructions, because open constructions will have a performance limit, were energy carried by air or humidity will be the dominant losses. Hakan At 13:25 06/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, i think you missed my point,i dont say you should not build conventional Homes,its the Formula of Vapourbarriers and Windwrapping wich should not be written in Granit,my Formula would be Insulation,wich allow breathing of the Walls,in German called Diffusionsoffen i guess in english could be open fore diffusion! Fritz - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Hakan Falk To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:21 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] R-2000 programm Fritz, I do not understand this dialogue, when you have a whole nation who on average use 1/3 of energy compared to US and 1/4 compared to Canada, based on equivalent to R-2000 from 1978 and R-1000 from 1958. I like log homes and your sales pitch have some values for home buyers, but it is not a nation wide recipe for conserving energy. I really hope that you sell more log homes, but doubt that they alone will have any major impact on the energy use. A country renew their building stock with between 1 to 2% a year and any serious conservation effort must therefore include much more than new constructions. Methods that can be implemented in refurbishing of buildings are therefore much more important. I doubt that log homes will fit very well in this picture. Hakan At 20:10 05/06/2006, you wrote: Hi Joe, you are rigth on with your comment! ThoseAirtigth Homes need to be serviced by mechanical Aircontrol,wich create again a energieconsumption by itself.Considerin lots of fixt Windows and the great ability of american Windowmakers to trow away all phisical Laws,you end up with Windows of sometimes very big dimention and ridicule small openings for Ventilation at the Bottom of the Windows,so the warm,humid air stays trappet in the upper part of the room or house.It is common knowledge, it takes more energie to keep humid air warm than to reheat cold air!Drywallconstructin is creating also a unhaelty klimat,so you need a humidifier and so on. Double Loghomes (machined dry Lumber T+G) can be built to Standards of Low-energie Homes with K-Value of 0,19W/m2k now i havnt been able to convert this into our R-Value but i am certain,it beats R 2000 by far. Combined a good craftet double Loghome with my 68mm Windows,you have there a Energie efficien home. Fore the Larchwood is to say,Larch is probably the best wood in the northern Hemisphere but have never beeing commercially used because it was in the old times to havy to float and it is so darn hard,that carpenters could not nail it. But with good machines its a peace of cake!There is an other apect talking for Larchwood: one dont need to treat the wood chemically for protection,the most you need to du is applying a coat of Linseedoil (for esthetics only) Windows and Doors from Larch are very durable to. If you consider the Whole Picture: Larch built homes are higly energyefficient, made from a readyly availible lowcost Source and for people with allergies the ideal Home.Combine this with excellent workmanship and you get a result that stand up for centurys (I know Larchbuilt homes with up to 800 years of age) I have no experiance in rammed eart construction,but would raise some doubts about such a technique for canadian climate Fritz ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Why foreign aid is failing
Mike, This was very interesting to hear, because it show how systematic it was/is. I had some insight in foreign aid from Sweden and some other donor countries, which have 10 to 20 times higher part of GDP than US. One of the holy principles is that it should be spent on the best value for the recipient. Completely opposite to US, who have strings attached, that will ensure the spending in US and to the benefit of US suppliers. It is also some fudging going on with some parts of war material included in the US foreign aid numbers. I did not know that it was systematic down to the state level. LOL Hakan At 15:42 06/06/2006, you wrote: When I worked for a US Gov't aid agency, one of my first web jobs was to put together an online map showing hoe US aid benefited each state so the representatives could use it to show that most of the money flowed back to the US. The agency commisioned a survey: Most Americans believed that 10% or more their tax dollars were spent on foreign aid. When asked the amount they thought was reasonable it was between 5-6%. The actual amount then (the 90's) was less than 1/2 of 1%. The key work with Easterly is former. Too radical. As I have said before, I am not an economist but grew up in a house where development economics was discussed endlessly - my father is a PhD in economics and was considered radical in that he thought top-down foreign aid was nuts. He told me one of his semilnal momnets was when, as a freshly minted PhD and very young professor, a student from India got up during a lecture and asked him: Well, what do you think we in the developing world think of this? He didn't know. That's not what they taught in graduate school in the late 50's. To his credit he set out to find out. I benefited enormously from this. Our house was usually full of students of all lands. His latest book is very interesting, though not orthodox: Achieving Broad-Based Sustainable Development: Governance, Environment, and Growth With Equity - James H Weaver, Mike Rock In my experience during my second stint in the aid game, our projects were all devised by the local population in a select group of African countries We had a set a metrics - how long has the group been together, have they already had some success, do they have a business plan and so on. Tweaking this was an ongoing process. Even with this my informal feeling was that about 1/3 sailed, 1/3 failed and 1/3 just bumped along. -Mike Hakan Falk wrote: Keith, Looking at is this way, we can be happy that US aid per capita is much lower than many other developed economies. It is apart from this, a shame to use the little that they give, in the way they do it. Hakan At 17:39 05/06/2006, you wrote: Well, I'm by no means an expert, but I have worked quite a bit in the foreign aid field. It wasn't a total failure by any means, but I'd say out failures outweighed our successes. On the other hand, I suppose you could say that very much of it is a great success, since so much foreign aid is unabashedly aimed at benefiting US interests, like other countries' tied aid. My father, who is a PhD in Development Economics, and was known as a radical for such dangerous ideas as arguing that money is not the only metric that can be used to determine development, once observed: The US has never realized that you can't just go in and impose prosperity Yeah. Or democracy, eh? In addition to the articles below I recommend the work of Joseph Stiglitz and William Easterly. Both former World Bank officials. http://snipurl.com/rde2 biofuel - Search results for 'stiglitz' http://snipurl.com/rde4 biofuel - Search results for 'Easterly' Anup Shah gives a good overview, as usual. Best Keith -Weaver Keith Addison wrote: See also: http://snipurl.com/rcij [Biofuel] Bushfood http://snipurl.com/rcik [Biofuel] Myth: More US aid will help the hungry http://snipurl.com/rcim Re: [Biofuel] US Foreign aid Food Dumping [Aid] Maintains Poverty http://snipurl.com/rcig [Biofuel] The US and Foreign Aid Assistance http://snipurl.com/rcih [Biofuel] Famines as Commercial Opportunity http://snipurl.com/rcii [Biofuel] Famine As Commerce http://snipurl.com/rcin [Biofuel] Inequality in wealth - New at Anup Shah's Global Issues web site. http://www.globalissues.org Home * Trade-Related Issues * Sustainable Development * US Foreign Aid Is foreign aid failing because of the lack of accountability of donors as well as problems in recipient countries? Much is said of the corruption, lack of democracy and other ills in developing countries as the reasons for aid and other forms of generous assistance never working. But, could it also be that the type of foreign aid (the conditions and prescriptions tied to the aid) is also a problem? Furthermore, there is very little accountability to the poor countries
Re: [Biofuel] Why foreign aid is failing
Mike, The name is SIDA and it is the government group for foreign aid. Many years ago (around 30), before I moved out of Sweden, I participated in some work. Hakan At 19:20 06/06/2006, you wrote: I used to know some Swedish guys - was the group SETA? or SEDA? The did good work. Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, This was very interesting to hear, because it show how systematic it was/is. I had some insight in foreign aid from Sweden and some other donor countries, which have 10 to 20 times higher part of GDP than US. One of the holy principles is that it should be spent on the best value for the recipient. Completely opposite to US, who have strings attached, that will ensure the spending in US and to the benefit of US suppliers. It is also some fudging going on with some parts of war material included in the US foreign aid numbers. I did not know that it was systematic down to the state level. LOL Hakan At 15:42 06/06/2006, you wrote: When I worked for a US Gov't aid agency, one of my first web jobs was to put together an online map showing hoe US aid benefited each state so the representatives could use it to show that most of the money flowed back to the US. The agency commisioned a survey: Most Americans believed that 10% or more their tax dollars were spent on foreign aid. When asked the amount they thought was reasonable it was between 5-6%. The actual amount then (the 90's) was less than 1/2 of 1%. The key work with Easterly is former. Too radical. As I have said before, I am not an economist but grew up in a house where development economics was discussed endlessly - my father is a PhD in economics and was considered radical in that he thought top-down foreign aid was nuts. He told me one of his semilnal momnets was when, as a freshly minted PhD and very young professor, a student from India got up during a lecture and asked him: Well, what do you think we in the developing world think of this? He didn't know. That's not what they taught in graduate school in the late 50's. To his credit he set out to find out. I benefited enormously from this. Our house was usually full of students of all lands. His latest book is very interesting, though not orthodox: Achieving Broad-Based Sustainable Development: Governance, Environment, and Growth With Equity - James H Weaver, Mike Rock In my experience during my second stint in the aid game, our projects were all devised by the local population in a select group of African countries We had a set a metrics - how long has the group been together, have they already had some success, do they have a business plan and so on. Tweaking this was an ongoing process. Even with this my informal feeling was that about 1/3 sailed, 1/3 failed and 1/3 just bumped along. -Mike Hakan Falk wrote: Keith, Looking at is this way, we can be happy that US aid per capita is much lower than many other developed economies. It is apart from this, a shame to use the little that they give, in the way they do it. Hakan At 17:39 05/06/2006, you wrote: Well, I'm by no means an expert, but I have worked quite a bit in the foreign aid field. It wasn't a total failure by any means, but I'd say out failures outweighed our successes. On the other hand, I suppose you could say that very much of it is a great success, since so much foreign aid is unabashedly aimed at benefiting US interests, like other countries' tied aid. My father, who is a PhD in Development Economics, and was known as a radical for such dangerous ideas as arguing that money is not the only metric that can be used to determine development, once observed: The US has never realized that you can't just go in and impose prosperity Yeah. Or democracy, eh? In addition to the articles below I recommend the work of Joseph Stiglitz and William Easterly. Both former World Bank officials. http://snipurl.com/rde2 biofuel - Search results for 'stiglitz' http://snipurl.com/rde4 biofuel - Search results for 'Easterly' Anup Shah gives a good overview, as usual. Best Keith -Weaver Keith Addison wrote: See also: http://snipurl.com/rcij [Biofuel] Bushfood http://snipurl.com/rcik [Biofuel] Myth: More US aid will help the hungry http://snipurl.com/rcim Re: [Biofuel] US Foreign aid Food Dumping [Aid] Maintains Poverty http://snipurl.com/rcig [Biofuel] The US and Foreign Aid Assistance http://snipurl.com/rcih [Biofuel] Famines as Commercial Opportunity http://snipurl.com/rcii [Biofuel] Famine As Commerce http://snipurl.com/rcin [Biofuel] Inequality in wealth - New at Anup Shah's Global Issues web site. http://www.globalissues.org Home * Trade-Related Issues * Sustainable Development * US Foreign Aid Is foreign aid failing because of the lack of accountability of donors as well
Re: [Biofuel] R-2000 program gets mixed reviews
Fritz, In Sweden we have a frame with a normal window that you can open. Beside we will have ventilation window 200-250 mm wide with insulation and a wooden plate and insect protection in the space. This will supply the fresh air and the ventilation sucks out the old trough a heat pump that produces warm water for hot water supply and radiators when the hot water reaches the limit 42-43 degree C, which is the maximum you get from heat pumps. The hot (warm) water deposit is large 300 to 500 liter for a family, because the relative low temperature. Very efficient system and keeps the costs low. We are used to build with windbreaker and vapor barrier and it works very well in cold climates, where the inside air is almost always heated and therefore dry (Molliere effect). Sweden does not have power failures and if it has, they only last minutes. In city environment, you will never have a power outage that is longer than half an hour. At the country side, I have experienced power failure as long as 6 hours, but they are very unusual. Since many houses are dependent on electricity for heating, a long power failure when it is -25 C, would destroy all the piping etc. If you have longer outage, get an emergency generator and thanks to the heat pumps, it will be feasible due to that you only need 1/3 of the energy that you need without heat pumps. I am not talking about odd design criteria, but about generally used equipments in homes that are 20 year old or refurbished within that period. This is why it is so large differences in average energy use, compared to US and Canada. Sweden is also on top on the world living standard, followed by the Nordic countries, shifting places on different aspects, I think that US and Canada are placed at the end of the top 10 list, you can look at the UN statistic. It is due to good engineering and Building Codes, I was active in this during the period when it all was developed. We had a climate simulation software and did a lot of simulation for the development of the Building Codes. This particular software shared the first price in its field with the NASA software for climate in space capsules, in a competition 1976. Hakan At 21:04 06/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, these very insulation standards making Vapourbarriers an Windbarriers a must and Thats what is no good! Than your special ventilation Windows,if you want to say Tilt and Turn windows,i agree,thats what i am making! I dont agree with 3Layers of glass sinze you cut down on Sunligth too (Plants will die with triple Glass).One can achiefe a similar or better Insulation in increasing the Airspace and using Low E Technologie! The problem with mechanical Air make up is often when Powerfailiers occour and a possible contamination of Air duckts! So i personally prefere Ventilation by Windows Fritz - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Hakan Falk To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 8:51 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] R-2000 program gets mixed reviews Fritz, I agree with you, but it has very little to do with the insulation standard. In Sweden we have special ventilation windows, and often mechanical ventilation with heat pump recuperation, very energy efficient even for one family homes. The ventilation windows are used for the rapid room ventilation that you want during cleaning etc. Windows are also three glass in the new 1978 standards, in which we were partially involved. After the 1973 crises, we participated in calculating several experiment houses, with our simulation software, some of them with insufficient ventilation and health, mold problems, etc. The result, among other things, were the ventilation/heat pump recuperation units, which also produces hot water, that now are available from all major suppliers and frequently used. There are also more advanced solutions with storage recuperation. The R-2000 is a good standard and quite optimized, higher insulation standard is very difficult to make functionally working and/or cost effective. . Hakan At 13:17 06/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, the thing is not about controlled Ventilation,but more about mechanical controlled Ventilation! Here the replaced20 years ago Windows in our local Schools to install mosttly Fix Panes with very little openings on the Bottoms of the fixed Panes,to find out after 10 Years of use,that the Airducts hade all beeing contaminated! now they ripped everything out and call for new Windows.And guess who is the Architect... the same guy who did the job at first.At the time he dismissed my arguments about proper Ventilation and called me outdatad since in modern times Ventilation is done mechanical.Today they call for PVC Windows!How can you figth stupidity? Fritz - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Hakanmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Hakan Falk To: mailto:biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] R-2000 program gets mixed reviews
Darryl, R-2000 is today the standard in Sweden, that means equivalent insulation to 200 mm mineral wool in walls and 400 in ceiling, windbreaker and ventilated facade on the outside and humidity (vapor) barrier on the inside. R-1000 have been the standard since the 1950's to 1978. The vapor barrier is very important, since a lot of energy will be transported with the air/humidity. On average the Swedish buildings use 1/3 of the energy in US and 1/4 of Canadian buildings, after climate corrections. The due point will always be somewhere in the construction, the trick is the ventilated facade, which constantly keep the construction dry. Hakan At 18:56 04/06/2006, you wrote: Fritz, I agree that R-2000 is not a perfect solution. However, it is miles ahead of conventional construction being done today. R-2000 does not address alternative energy sources - it is not contrary to solar thermal or geothermal or biofuels - it simply ignores them. It also does not consider thermal mass. Perhaps I was not clear in my original post - the main issue with R-2000 is not that it is not far-reaching enough, it is that virtually no one is implementing even this level of efficiency. R-2000 doesn't help if no one is doing it. Personally, I think the next step for new housing should be the NZEHH - Net Zero Energy Healthy House (the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation site should have something on that - actually not much yet - http://www.cmhc.ca/en/inpr/su/neze/neze_001.cfm Absolutely, I would like to see us using more natural and sustainable materials, and less materials that off-gas and present other issues. Woodcrete and papercrete instead of conventional concrete. Rocks as filler for foundation pours. Insulating the outside of the foundation at time of construction instead of inside after the fact. More intelligent siting and orientation of houses and window technologies. (and on and on) I also believe we have to seriously address the retro-fit issue at all levels - we don't have time to replace all housing stock in the next few years with new ground-up, ultra-efficient buildings. So, even if not the ultimate solution, beefing up insulation and weather-sealing would be a huge step forward for much of Canada's existing housing in terms of reducing energy use, GHG emissions, pollution and other issues. Fritz Friesinger wrote: Hi Darryl, the R2000 Code wich says beside others :houses constructed using airtight seals and thick insulation that keeps heat from leaking away is not the very best way of constructing a energie efficient Home,because those Homes require forced Air Heating/Cooling! In Northamerica the Magic Formula seemes to be airtigth wrapings outside and Vaporbarriers inside the House,but the most energie efficient houses are Homes built with natural Materials who dont reqire Vaporbarriers (Cob- Log-or Straw houses) Myself i am trying to get people interestet in my project of building homes with double Log Walls from Larchwood (very cheep availible) filled with natural Insulation wich keeps the Wall breeding.The key is not to produce a thawpoint! This technique gives a totally natural Klimate in the home,better tha a handcraftet Loghome! I got sofare the major equipment together the Place/Workshop,but the constant Cashflow problem is slowly killing me! The conclusion therefore is,nowbody is interestet in good workmanship and good technique,everything is measured on quick return and spend al least to get the most!And this is the real american way of life! If you want to see my Portfolio go to www.traditionalwoodwork.ca Fritz - Original Message - From: Darryl McMahon To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 11:43 AM Subject: [Biofuel] R-2000 program gets mixed reviews R-2000 is the house construction standard developed in Canada decades ago to minimize energy use via insulation, weather-sealing and other technologies. Uptake has been minimal. Last I heard, less than 1/2 of one percent of new home construction in Canada meets this standard. Pity, because study after study shows it reduces life-time ownership costs, and would make a huge difference in making Canadians somewhat less of energy pigs. = http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Politics/2006/05/28/pf-1602659.html May 28, 2006 By DEAN BEEBY OTTAWA (CP) - One of Canada's oldest energy-conservation programs - the R-2000 standard for new homes - is under threat after an internal analysis found that very few homebuyers even care about it. The 25-year-old insulation standard has become one of the Kyoto-related programs that the new Tory government has put on hold as it conducts a sweeping review of greenhouse-gas spending. With rare exceptions, home-buying consumers are not interested in GHG (greenhouse gas) emissions
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Mike, I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral. I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also. National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been the same thing, but looked better for the US government. It would also given US the best of both worlds and kept the others to pay an artificially high price for the dollars they needed for their energy purchases. It is many factors that tell us that US no longer deserve the responsibility to be the guardian of a world currency and some diversification to Euro and other currencies will create better stability. If you at your leisure chooses to misunderstand my choice of English words and that way take advantage of my choice of words and nationality, I will start to write Swedish in my responses to you. I do not like that you take advantage of that I try to write to you in your language and get upset/ridicule my choice of words, instead of try to understand what I want to say in a positive manner. You can try to communicate with me in Swedish and I am quite sure that your choices of Swedish words will be somewhat worse than my choices of English words. It is after all an International list and the majority of us have other native languages than English. Until you attacked my for my English, I found a very large understanding for this, by the other list members. Hakan At 00:28 01/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, You wrote: ...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower. So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defend themselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value of currencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan? You said: I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt to blame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules. I find it amazing too - since I didn't blame other countries for anything. I find it amazing that (according to you) I can blame someone without using the word blame, or: culpability fault guilt rap responsibility for wrongdoing or failure I didn't say any related words like: regret remorse self-reproach shame accountability liability complicity blameworthiness reprehensibleness sinfulness censure condemnation denunciation (courtesy: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blamehttp://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame ) I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking all the rules. However, I did say White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack. You also said: I do not see that US is under any attack That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has so broadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy of attack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or not you can see it? My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiable popular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both inside and outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions in countries around the world. It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) and express dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm not even asking for respect (although it would be nice). Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might find it helpful to your own credibility. Mike Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike, The weakening of the dollar is not a result of any concerted foreign effort. The dollar is amazingly strong, considering that US breaks all fundamentals. It is probably the opposite, it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower. I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt to blame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules. I would not surprised to hear such things from children mom/dad said we could do it and maybe I am not that surprised to hear it from US. It is however wrong to try to find any to blame other then US itself. I do not see that US is under
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Mike W, If you look at my post, it was an answer to Michael Redler's post, so do not worry. We are probably all confused by all the Mikes and it might be good if you sign your posts with Weaver or Mike W. Maybe you should sign it with The Real Mike. LOL What you are saying in Swedish is I am old except I am cleaning. Mike R. could make a lot with this, if he understand Swedish. LOL If you wanted to say I am old but clean it is Jag är gammal men ren. Probably you wanted to say I am old but innocent which is Jag är gammal men oskyldig. I hope that MR understands that it was a reply to him. LOL Best wishes. Hakan At 12:56 01/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, I think you've gotten your Mikes mixed up. I'm Mike Weaver, or Mike the Elder. I didn't say any of this. Go back and check the headers. I responded to your post of a few days ago, and basically agreed with you that the US suffers from corruption, pollution and lack of transparency. I most certainly didn't attack your English nor your grammer. I did not write this below: -Mike Weaver You wrote: ...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower. So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defend themselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value of currencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan? You said: I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt to blame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules. I find it amazing too - since I didn't blame other countries for anything. I find it amazing that (according to you) I can blame someone without using the word blame, or: culpability fault guilt rap responsibility for wrongdoing or failure I didn't say any related words like: regret remorse self-reproach shame accountability liability complicity blameworthiness reprehensibleness sinfulness censure condemnation denunciation (courtesy: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blamehttp://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame ) I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking all the rules. However, I did say White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack. You also said: I do not see that US is under any attack That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has so broadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy of attack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or not you can see it? My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiable popular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both inside and outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions in countries around the world. It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) and express dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm not even asking for respect (although it would be nice). Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might find it helpful to your own credibility. Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral. I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also. National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been the same thing, but looked better for the US government. It would also given US the best of both worlds and kept the others to pay an artificially high price for the dollars they needed for their energy purchases. It is many factors that tell us that US no longer deserve the responsibility to be the guardian of a world currency and some diversification to Euro and other currencies will create better stability. If you at your leisure chooses to misunderstand my choice of English words and that way take advantage of my choice of words and nationality, I will start to write Swedish in my responses to you. I do not like that you take advantage of that I try to write to you in your language and get upset/ridicule my choice of words, instead of try to understand what I want to say in a positive manner. You can try to communicate with me in Swedish and I am quite sure that your choices of Swedish
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
The Real Mike, Sorry, I got two messages from you, one personal and one through the list. I appreciated you message, but sent the same answer to both you and the list. It was not until afterwards, that I saw the difference and that you in the personal one try a Swedish sentence, also much appreciated because of the effort that must have gone into it. To try to construct a sentence in an unfamiliar language is a lot of work and it is easy to get it wrong. In Swedish we would say Heder åt dig, which is in translation Honor to you. To make my answer to the list understandable. I have to explain to the list that I tried to explain what you said in Swedish, which was JAG er gammal utom JAG rengör! and suggest the Swedish text for what you probably wanted to say. Hakan At 14:10 01/06/2006, you wrote: Mike W, If you look at my post, it was an answer to Michael Redler's post, so do not worry. We are probably all confused by all the Mikes and it might be good if you sign your posts with Weaver or Mike W. Maybe you should sign it with The Real Mike. LOL What you are saying in Swedish is I am old except I am cleaning. Mike R. could make a lot with this, if he understand Swedish. LOL If you wanted to say I am old but clean it is Jag är gammal men ren. Probably you wanted to say I am old but innocent which is Jag är gammal men oskyldig. I hope that MR understands that it was a reply to him. LOL Best wishes. Hakan At 12:56 01/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, I think you've gotten your Mikes mixed up. I'm Mike Weaver, or Mike the Elder. I didn't say any of this. Go back and check the headers. I responded to your post of a few days ago, and basically agreed with you that the US suffers from corruption, pollution and lack of transparency. I most certainly didn't attack your English nor your grammer. I did not write this below: -Mike Weaver You wrote: ...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower. So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defend themselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value of currencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan? You said: I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt to blame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules. I find it amazing too - since I didn't blame other countries for anything. I find it amazing that (according to you) I can blame someone without using the word blame, or: culpability fault guilt rap responsibility for wrongdoing or failure I didn't say any related words like: regret remorse self-reproach shame accountability liability complicity blameworthiness reprehensibleness sinfulness censure condemnation denunciation (courtesy: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blamehttp://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame ) I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking all the rules. However, I did say White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack. You also said: I do not see that US is under any attack That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has so broadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy of attack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or not you can see it? My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiable popular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both inside and outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions in countries around the world. It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) and express dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm not even asking for respect (although it would be nice). Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might find it helpful to your own credibility. Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral. I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also. National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Fred, If it is the same person, he is going through a lot of efforts to hide it, even using two different computers, with different software and different locations, if you read the message headers. It is not likely that they are in the same room, so maybe you are right. If he go trough all of this to be able to have dual personalties, he deserves it. LOL Hakan At 14:38 01/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, Weaver and Redler are the same person. He does this to confuse the point and disorient us all!! You want proof? Have you ever seen them together in the same room? fred On 6/1/06, Hakan Falk mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike W, If you look at my post, it was an answer to Michael Redler's post, so do not worry. We are probably all confused by all the Mikes and it might be good if you sign your posts with Weaver or Mike W. Maybe you should sign it with The Real Mike. LOL What you are saying in Swedish is I am old except I am cleaning. Mike R. could make a lot with this, if he understand Swedish. LOL If you wanted to say I am old but clean it is Jag är gammal men ren. Probably you wanted to say I am old but innocent which is Jag är gammal men oskyldig. I hope that MR understands that it was a reply to him. LOL Best wishes. Hakan At 12:56 01/06/2006, you wrote: Hakan, I think you've gotten your Mikes mixed up. I'm Mike Weaver, or Mike the Elder. I didn't say any of this. Go back and check the headers. I responded to your post of a few days ago, and basically agreed with you that the US suffers from corruption, pollution and lack of transparency. I most certainly didn't attack your English nor your grammer. I did not write this below: -Mike Weaver You wrote: ...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower. So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defend themselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value of currencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan? You said: I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt to blame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules. I find it amazing too - since I didn't blame other countries for anything. I find it amazing that (according to you) I can blame someone without using the word blame, or: culpability fault guilt rap responsibility for wrongdoing or failure I didn't say any related words like: regret remorse self-reproach shame accountability liability complicity blameworthiness reprehensibleness sinfulness censure condemnation denunciation (courtesy: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blamehttp://ww w.m-w.com/dictionary/blame http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame ) I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking all the rules. However, I did say White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack. You also said: I do not see that US is under any attack That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has so broadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy of attack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or not you can see it? My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiable popular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both inside and outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions in countries around the world. It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) and express dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm not even asking for respect (although it would be nice). Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might find it helpful to your own credibility. Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral. I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also. National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been the same thing, but looked better for the US government. It would also given US the best of both worlds and kept the others
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Mike, Very good analysis and it describes the situation. The problem is the currency base, which before was stable with the gold standard. Now the currency base is the collective wealth of the society. Rising debts and deficits should in theory mean some adjustments downwards of the currency, but it is more complex than that, because it now has many emotional and political factors. No one can afford a wholesale collapse of the US economy and it takes time to diversify currency dependence. The best for the world economy, would be stable Euro, dollar and yen, with little movement between them. The loss of prosperity in the world, if the dollar fail, would be enormous, but the current evaluation is based on wishful thinking rather than fundamentals. The world is waiting out the current US administration and hope for something better in the future. If that does not happen, then US and the world will be in serious problems. It will also mean that Russia and China would play much more important parts in the world economy. Hakan At 04:16 31/05/2006, you wrote: I don't see a wholesale collapse of the US economy. I do think the dollar will continue to slide until the country elects some Republicans or Democrats. I am not sure what to call the gang in power now; they are most certainly NOT Republicans. I'm also not sure how successful the Iranian oil bourse will be - so they'll get Euros. Big whoop. All major markets are still denominated in dollars. Maybe they can buy nuclear thechnology from France. Also, say what you want about the US but it is still by far the most dynamic economy in the world. China and India still have significant infrastructure, corruption, pollution and transparency issues to overcome. Don't get me wrong - the concerted effort to destroy our economic system perpetuated by the Bush Administration will (and has) have an effect. And whose to say China and the other Asian countries holding out debt won't decide to trim our sails a bit. A very small sell off would devastating. From Safehaven: The US Dollar has been the reserve currency of the world since the end of WW2 and the Bretton Woods Agreement (July 1944). Bretton Woods signalled the end of the British Pound as the worlds reserve currency. The Pound was the principal currency of the world for over 100 years from 1816 to 1933 and it was backed by gold. But at the outset of WW1 Britain and other European countries came off the gold standard because of the financial dislocations caused by the war. The US$ still backed by gold slowly began to replace the faltering British Pound but by 1933 the US joined them in coming off the gold standard due to the deteriorating deflationary conditions of the Great Depression. The period was also marked by the collapse in international trade and financial flows prior To WW2. With Britain and Europe in ruins after WW2 the way was clear for the US, who emerged unscathed by war to assume the role as the world's reserve currency and the king of the international financial markets. And backing the US Dollar was once again convertibility into gold. The Bretton Woods Agreement saw other key features such as fixed but adjustable exchange rates against the US Dollar and the birth of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank. **What will happen to the US as it is flat on its back engaged in Afganistan, Iraq and Iran? With Europe, China and India wait politely as we sort it out? I doubt it. I don't think China is playing for second place. But by the early 1970's growing structural imbalances amongst the world's leading economies led to increased currency speculation, the floating of the Pound Sterling followed by others, and deteriorating confidence in the US Dollar. The gold standard and Bretton Woods collapsed in 1971 and by 1973 the floating exchange rate system took hold. Since then we have been through a roller coaster ride for the US Dollar and numerous other currencies. The US Dollar after falling precipitously through the 1970's regained strength in the 1980's particularly following the election of the Reagan administration in 1980. That ended in 1985 with the Plaza Accord as the strong US Dollar was causing structural imbalances with the growing US twin deficits of budget and trade (sound familiar). In less then two years the US Dollar lost half its value. The 1990's was the decade of currency crises. The British Pound (1992), the Mexican Peso (1994), the Asian contagion (1997) followed by Asian Contagion II in 1998 along with the collapse of the Russian Ruble. This led to the collapse of the giant hedge fund Long Term Capital Management (LTCM) that required the Federal Reserve to bail the banks that were threatened with collapse. To a lesser degree we also had the Turkish Lira crisis and numerous currency and financial woes in Latin America especially Argentina. And least we forget, the Canadian Dollar also fell to new multi year lows although it was never described
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Mike, At 04:16 31/05/2006, you wrote: snip Also, say what you want about the US but it is still by far the most dynamic economy in the world. China and India still have significant infrastructure, corruption, pollution and transparency issues to overcome. snip And US have none of those problems? LOL Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Mike, I would not take issue on pollution per facility, but pollution per nation. US is very much larger polluter per capita than both China and India together. US is also larger polluter in absolute terms,so it is not surprising that US did not sign Kyoto. Even Bush said that it would be too expensive to meet the Kyoto targets, which means that US is way above them, otherwise it would not be that costly. Looking at GDP levels, if anyone could afford a clean up, it is US. I also think that the US glass house is damaged beyond repair, with all the stone throwing that it suffered. As usual, it is more about image, than practical realities. Hakan At 13:56 31/05/2006, you wrote: I didn't say that. Nor would I. I said the US has a dynamic economy. Our infrastructure is beginning to fall apart; the highway system is crumbling; the electrical grid is shaky; we have no energy policy...the list goes on. But it it better than the systems in most of the world, except Western Europe. There is a functioning legal system, something I think you'd be hard-pressed to claim about China and to some degree India. Our corruption is better managed and on a grander scale - Halliburton. But you don't have to pay a bribe to get driver's license or cross a bridge or open a business. Would you rather own stock in Exxon or Cnooc? Well, figuratively, I wouldn't own oil stocks personally, but one has reasonably open books, and putatively complies with Sarbanes-Oxley, and one can be manipulated at the will of the government. Despite the best efforts of the current administration, our pollution levels are nothing like that of China or India, and the days of major ecological disasters like the Three Gorges Dam are passed. Transparency has suffered mightily under Bush, but Transparency International still rates the US well above China and India. Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, At 04:16 31/05/2006, you wrote: snip Also, say what you want about the US but it is still by far the most dynamic economy in the world. China and India still have significant infrastructure, corruption, pollution and transparency issues to overcome. snip And US have none of those problems? LOL Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] threat to U.S. dollar
to dig your own grave with. And other people's too. It's hard for Americans to see it that way, it's all been glorified from birth. Glorified to death. Best Keith Hakan Falk wrote: Robert, Now we are starting to get somewhere and thank you for posting a good and fuller description of the problem. You're welcome! There are many problems with the US economy, one is the belief that they could export services to balance the lack of production. The markets for US services have failed to materialize. As pointed out, the cost of engaging in war, only worsen the situation. You are correct, but there is a belief over here that engaging in war is GOOD for the economy, and further, that we're strong enough to sustain ongoing warfare. I think the devaluation of labor expenses through currency degradation in the US serves the interests of large corporations who WANT cheap labor from desperate people in order to sustain profit margins. Witness the growing disparity between CEO salaries and wages for the average worker as an example of why powerful people are interested in maintaining the status-quo. The situation WILL get worse, but to what extent and what rate, no one can be certain. I'm convinced, however, that the policies we see in place now will be continued without respite until the whole thing collapses. Too many of us have a rather arrogant view that the world cannot exist without our market. We are large, and we seem wealthy, but much of that wealth is an illusion. In reality, fewer and fewer people are controlling more and more of the world's wealth. The article you refer to, describe the situation much better than I do, but also fail to suggest any solution. Other than maybe a meaningful devaluation with the austerity measures that must go with it. You were right about the situation in Iraq, and you're right that our current economic paradigm cannot be sustained. The solution to all of this involves the foundation principles guiding discussion on the biofuels list. We have to learn how to control our appetites for energy and develop patterns of resource use that are locally controlled and sustainable. It's not just we Americans who need to do this--though we are certainly among the most gluttonous energy users on the planet--but the entire economic structure upon which society has been built needs reconsideration. However, there are too many people who don't want to limit their appetites, and the ongoing devaluation of labor is perceived as good for business. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar
Mike, The weakening of the dollar is not a result of any concerted foreign effort. The dollar is amazingly strong, considering that US breaks all fundamentals. It is probably the opposite, it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower. I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt to blame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules. I would not surprised to hear such things from children mom/dad said we could do it and maybe I am not that surprised to hear it from US. It is however wrong to try to find any to blame other then US itself. I do not see that US is under any attack, it is only taking the consequences of its own doing. I see no reason to develop any mental feelings like being pursued over it. It is not any background for see what they are doing to us when it should be see what we are doing to ourselves. On the other hand, conspiration theories are favorite themes for Americans and they will soon find someone who is making it to the Americans, so the Americans will make it to themselves. Do not misunderstand me, I like Americans very much and I also like children very much. I wonder if there are any connections in this. How they could elect Bush is beyond me, but he is there. Hakan At 17:05 31/05/2006, you wrote: I think the 5/30/06 post and attached article from AltEnergyNetwork did a excellent job explaining the administration's decision making process, the U.S. economy and how it compares to similar situations in other countries. http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg63309.html I also think it's possible that the weakening of the U.S. Dollar is the result of a concerted effort by foreign entities (governments and NGO's) and might be related to what Noam Chomsky describes on the last page of Hegemony or Survival. For the first time, concrete alliances have been taking shape at the grassroots level . These are impressive developments, rich in opportunity. And they have had effects, in rhetorical and sometimes policy changes. When he says policy changes, I read it to mean within the United States. However, I think that a popular movement to identify the U.S. government as the single biggest threat to our survival as a species, is coalescing in foreign policy decisions around the world. The result is an indication of US economic isolation with hopes of slowing military buildup and globalization. (IMO) this adds to Mike Weaver's position: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg63345.html Don't get me wrong - the concerted effort to destroy our economic system perpetuated by the Bush Administration will (and has) have an effect. White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack. Military spending/use, energy, the environment, you name it, the U.S. government is enormously wasteful and destructive (not that I need to tell anyone in this forum) and people are taking notice. Like Keith wrote: Eco-economics has been on the table since Maggie Thatcher put it there by mistake in 1988. It's not going to go away, it's been gaining ground steadily. It's about holding back the most destructive empire in human history - destructive for what it does and doesn't do. Re: WMD's - how U.S. policy threatens our survival. In addition to U.S. engagement in continuous military conflicts since WWII, the Bush administration has vetoed or avoided discussion on nearly every international effort to limit nuclear, chemical and biological weapons, has militarized space in violation of past nuclear weapons treatise and has prompted other countries to react and build more arms. U.S. spending on nuclear weapons has surpassed the entire state department budget. The U.S. Pharmaceutical industry is helping develop vaccine resistant Anthrax (for example) and an arms race for biological weapons is already underway. Mike Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, I would not take issue on pollution per facility, but pollution per nation. US is very much larger polluter per capita than both China and India together. US is also larger polluter in absolute terms,so it is not surprising that US did not sign Kyoto. Even Bush said that it would be too expensive to meet the Kyoto targets, which means that US is way above them, otherwise it would not be that costly. Looking at GDP levels, if anyone could afford a clean up, it is US. I also think that the US glass house is damaged beyond repair, with all the stone throwing that it suffered. As usual, it is more about image, than practical realities. Hakan At 13:56 31/05/2006, you wrote: I didn't say that. Nor would I. I said the US has a dynamic economy. Our infrastructure is beginning to fall apart; the highway system is crumbling; the electrical grid is shaky; we have no energy policy...the list goes
Re: [Biofuel] threat to U.S. dollar
It has already been done by reelecting Bush, now it is only to sit and wait for the results. Hakan At 15:29 30/05/2006, you wrote: Is there anything we at home can do to help speed this process? :) Joe AltEnergyNetwork wrote: http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=58951 Threat against the US$ comes from countries such as Iran and Venezuela... Former Nordland University (Norway) associate professor, Dr. Abbas Bakhtiar writes: On Wednesday, May 17, the Dow Jones plunged 214 points to 11,206 -- its worst point drop since March 2003. The downward trend started a week ago and is a warning sign of troubles ahead. This sudden drop has come as a complete surprise to the unfortunate small investors and speculators. The so called experts point at the sudden threat of inflation as the main cause of the recent reversals in the markets. What is actually surprising is the surprise of the experts. A cursory look at the United States' finances will reveal the amount of pressure that its economy is under. When Bush became president in 2001, the United States' public debt was 5.8 trillion dollars. Today the public debt stands at US$8.3 trillion. Of this over $2.2 trillion are held by foreigners. The United States has a GDP of $12.4 trillion ... this gives the US a Debt/GDP ratio of 66%, placing it in 35th place (out of 113) in the ranking of the Debtor Nations. The current account deficit of over 7% has long passed its danger levels of 4-5%. In 2005 the US government paid $325 billion only in interest payments alone. Then, there are the future obligations such as Medicare, Social Security and government pensions. These obligations amount to $54 trillion. This huge problem worried the former Federal Reserve Chairman, Alan Greenspan. He told congress: As a nation, we may have already made promises to coming generations of retirees that we will be unable to fulfil. One would think that this amount of debt would worry the president and the congress ... but apparently it does not. The United States' Congress recently (March 2006) voted to increase the Federal debt limit to $9 trillion. Any other nation in similar circumstances would have had to approach IMF for help. The IMF would then have forced that nation to cut spending and devalue its currency ... but US does not need to do this. The US can just print some more dollars. But how long can this continue before the world loose faith in the greenback, sending it crashing to unimaginable levels. The Asian Lender The Asian countries such as Japan, China and others that hold most of the US debts have been happy to indulge the American deficit spending. This has been a two-way Street, America has kept its market open to their products and they have financed the Americans' spending. The value of US dollar so far has been kept artificially high by Japan, China and oil-exporting countries. These countries by buying US debts have has kept interests rates relatively low in the United States and allowed Americans to keep spending even as their debts mount. But there is only so much risk these lenders (Asian and oil-exporting countries) are willing to take. Any serious devaluation of the US$ will considerably reduce the value of their national reserves (mostly kept in dollars) and the value of their debt holdings (certificates, bonds, etc.). At the same time, the devaluation will affect their exports to the US. A weaker dollar makes their products more expensive in US, thereby reducing their export earnings. Most Asian countries keep up to 70% of their reserves in dollars. China with the reserves of over $800 billion has already begun to slowly reduce its dependency on dollars by converting part of its reserves to other currencies. If other Asian countries -- with their vast dollar holdings -- follow suit, then it will be disastrous for the value of dollar. Nobody is interested in holding a weakening currency. Petro-Dollar Another threat against the dollar comes from countries such as Iran and Venezuela. Iran recently registered an Oil Bourse to compete with Bourses in New York and London. The threat comes from the currency in which the oil is to be sold in Euro. Iranians are going to make the Euro the standard currency for oil transactions. Some sympathetic countries such as Venezuela and others may join in. If the Iranians succeed in this, the pressure on dollar will be catastrophic. Nearly every country has to hold a certain amount of dollars in reserve for oil purchases. If the dollar continues to weaken in value, and there is the possibility of purchasing oil in Euro, then these countries would unload their dollars for safer currencies such as Euro. What will then happen to the value of dollar? Iraq
Re: [Biofuel] [SPAMPROB:51%] Re: threat to U.S. dollar
Mike, It is not like US will implode, it can still largely maintain prices on domestic products. Imports will however effect price levels and domestic production that use large amounts of energy, will have to correct pricing. Since US is importing a lot of the energy use and also that the domestic energy production will follow the world markets, it is a much that will be effected. The US export will be effected positively and offset some of the negatives as a nation, but the average Joe will see this as negative and lowering of living standard. US will see a rush to buy US properties, companies and corporations by foreigners, which will be cheap and a way to use the large $ holdings. This will be a circus and US will try, within the limits, to stop this owner shifts. If they do nothing, it will be bad and if they do too much, it will be worse for the possibility of future recuperation. US will not afford any more Iraq adventures and have to get out of the existing ones as soon as possible, to stop bleeding. It will lose its international standing and will not be trusted for a couple of generations. This will also put US at the same level as several South American countries. The damages to the national pride, will be far larger than the actual national economic damages. EU will be the worlds economic super power, followed by Russia and China. You will see effects like the depression in the 30's and a lot of suicides, as it was then. You will also see a lot of price regulation on domestic produce. Hakan At 16:19 30/05/2006, you wrote: Joe Street asks, Is there anything we at home can do to help speed this process? :) I suggest: Implore your Federal representatives to continue raising the debt ceiling, to continue supporting the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, to start another war in Iran, etc etc. Or better, don't waste your time. Instead, I ask you, Joe, and the List, how do you believe the average Joe should prepare for the inevitable demise of the US dollar??? I'm not trying to be facetious. I'm asking a real question, seeking a real answer. Might not like the answer, but I'd like to hear. Also, Keith, how will Japan be affected? Japan is one of the largest holders of US Debt. Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:29 AM Subject: [SPAMPROB:51%] Re: [Biofuel] threat to U.S. dollar Is there anything we at home can do to help speed this process? :) Joe AltEnergyNetwork wrote: http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=58951http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=58951 Threat against the US$ comes from countries such as Iran and Venezuela... Former Nordland University (Norway) associate professor, Dr. Abbas Bakhtiar writes: On Wednesday, May 17, the Dow Jones plunged 214 points to 11,206 -- its worst point drop since March 2003. The downward trend started a week ago and is a warning sign of troubles ahead. This sudden drop has come as a complete surprise to the unfortunate small investors and speculators. The so called experts point at the sudden threat of inflation as the main cause of the recent reversals in the markets. What is actually surprising is the surprise of the experts. A cursory look at the United States' finances will reveal the amount of pressure that its economy is under. When Bush became president in 2001, the United States' public debt was 5.8 trillion dollars. Today the public debt stands at US$8.3 trillion. Of this over $2.2 trillion are held by foreigners. The United States has a GDP of $12.4 trillion ... this gives the US a Debt/GDP ratio of 66%, placing it in 35th place (out of 113) in the ranking of the Debtor Nations. The current account deficit of over 7% has long passed its danger levels of 4-5%. In 2005 the US government paid $325 billion only in interest payments alone. Then, there are the future obligations such as Medicare, Social Security and government pensions. These obligations amount to $54 trillion. This huge problem worried the former Federal Reserve Chairman, Alan Greenspan. He told congress: As a nation, we may have already made promises to coming generations of retirees that we will be unable to fulfil. One would think that this amount of debt would worry the president and the congress ... but apparently it does not. The United States' Congress recently (March 2006) voted to increase the Federal debt limit to $9 trillion. Any other nation in similar circumstances would have had to approach IMF for help. The IMF would then have forced that nation to cut spending and devalue its currency ... but US does not need to do this. The US can just print some more dollars. But how long can this continue before the world loose faith in the
Re: [Biofuel] [SPAMPROB:51%] Re: threat to U.S. dollar
Mike, Why should you not have any income? Is your job very dependent on imports to US? Jobs for local produce, is the same or safer, export is safer than before. Imports would sell much less and a lot of jobs will be lost. It is many countries in the past, who have done 30 to 50% write down of their currencies. It is an adjustment to reflect the true value of the assets and businesses. I have experienced countries with 20 to 30% devaluation. The dollar in US is not worthless after a devaluation, you have to shift what you buy for it. You have to buy more US produced food, which is less effected by an devaluation. It is of course a major health risk, but you have no choice. Some national businesses will try to take advantage of the situation, but normally the government will introduce price control to stop this. To prepare? You can buy a low consuming foreign diesel car now, it is a win-win anyway you see it, with or without devaluation. It will be very cheap to buy an American car after devaluation, but the running cost will not be sustainable. US will lose much of its financial wealth, import jobs are going to be lost. The average Joe will not go under in any way, but the wealthy 10% of the population, will be hurt a lot and many fortunes wiped out. Why US have been allowed to run so large debts and deficits, is because a lot of foreign fortunes will be wiped out also. The one who is the least effected, is the average American Joe, employed in local produce, distribution, export etc. Hakan At 17:55 30/05/2006, you wrote: Hi Hakan...thanks for this well thought out response. I've read it carefully and tried to use my imagination more, but I'm still not clear on how any of us in the USA might specifically prepare for this. It seems having the house paid off is a good thing, although I'm not sure how I might pay property taxes and insurance if I have no income. What types of services do you think will fail and survive? I suppose if there is any stuff in the house I want to sell on eBay, I need to get it done immediately. Of course, what good will it do to have worthless US Dollars? I'm wondering if I should be buying Euros and socking them away??? If there are other people or places you feel I should turn to for these answers, please advise. Thanks again. Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [SPAMPROB:51%] Re: threat to U.S. dollar Mike, It is not like US will implode, it can still largely maintain prices on domestic products. Imports will however effect price levels and domestic production that use large amounts of energy, will have to correct pricing. Since US is importing a lot of the energy use and also that the domestic energy production will follow the world markets, it is a much that will be effected. The US export will be effected positively and offset some of the negatives as a nation, but the average Joe will see this as negative and lowering of living standard. US will see a rush to buy US properties, companies and corporations by foreigners, which will be cheap and a way to use the large $ holdings. This will be a circus and US will try, within the limits, to stop this owner shifts. If they do nothing, it will be bad and if they do too much, it will be worse for the possibility of future recuperation. US will not afford any more Iraq adventures and have to get out of the existing ones as soon as possible, to stop bleeding. It will lose its international standing and will not be trusted for a couple of generations. This will also put US at the same level as several South American countries. The damages to the national pride, will be far larger than the actual national economic damages. EU will be the worlds economic super power, followed by Russia and China. You will see effects like the depression in the 30's and a lot of suicides, as it was then. You will also see a lot of price regulation on domestic produce. Hakan At 16:19 30/05/2006, you wrote: Joe Street asks, Is there anything we at home can do to help speed this process? :) I suggest: Implore your Federal representatives to continue raising the debt ceiling, to continue supporting the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, to start another war in Iran, etc etc. Or better, don't waste your time. Instead, I ask you, Joe, and the List, how do you believe the average Joe should prepare for the inevitable demise of the US dollar??? I'm not trying to be facetious. I'm asking a real question, seeking a real answer. Might not like the answer, but I'd like to hear. Also, Keith, how will Japan be affected? Japan is one of the largest holders of US Debt. Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL
Re: [Biofuel] [SPAMPROB:51%] Re: threat to U.S. dollar
Mike, About your house and mortgage. Your house will go up in value after a devaluation and your mortgage will go down in value. In this case you will win, some time after the devaluation, when things improve. It will improve, because that is the whole purpose of the devaluation anyway and property is a safer investment. Hakan At 17:55 30/05/2006, you wrote: Hi Hakan...thanks for this well thought out response. I've read it carefully and tried to use my imagination more, but I'm still not clear on how any of us in the USA might specifically prepare for this. It seems having the house paid off is a good thing, although I'm not sure how I might pay property taxes and insurance if I have no income. What types of services do you think will fail and survive? I suppose if there is any stuff in the house I want to sell on eBay, I need to get it done immediately. Of course, what good will it do to have worthless US Dollars? I'm wondering if I should be buying Euros and socking them away??? If there are other people or places you feel I should turn to for these answers, please advise. Thanks again. Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [SPAMPROB:51%] Re: threat to U.S. dollar Mike, It is not like US will implode, it can still largely maintain prices on domestic products. Imports will however effect price levels and domestic production that use large amounts of energy, will have to correct pricing. Since US is importing a lot of the energy use and also that the domestic energy production will follow the world markets, it is a much that will be effected. The US export will be effected positively and offset some of the negatives as a nation, but the average Joe will see this as negative and lowering of living standard. US will see a rush to buy US properties, companies and corporations by foreigners, which will be cheap and a way to use the large $ holdings. This will be a circus and US will try, within the limits, to stop this owner shifts. If they do nothing, it will be bad and if they do too much, it will be worse for the possibility of future recuperation. US will not afford any more Iraq adventures and have to get out of the existing ones as soon as possible, to stop bleeding. It will lose its international standing and will not be trusted for a couple of generations. This will also put US at the same level as several South American countries. The damages to the national pride, will be far larger than the actual national economic damages. EU will be the worlds economic super power, followed by Russia and China. You will see effects like the depression in the 30's and a lot of suicides, as it was then. You will also see a lot of price regulation on domestic produce. Hakan At 16:19 30/05/2006, you wrote: Joe Street asks, Is there anything we at home can do to help speed this process? :) I suggest: Implore your Federal representatives to continue raising the debt ceiling, to continue supporting the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, to start another war in Iran, etc etc. Or better, don't waste your time. Instead, I ask you, Joe, and the List, how do you believe the average Joe should prepare for the inevitable demise of the US dollar??? I'm not trying to be facetious. I'm asking a real question, seeking a real answer. Might not like the answer, but I'd like to hear. Also, Keith, how will Japan be affected? Japan is one of the largest holders of US Debt. Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: Joe Street mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] amailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.orgmailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:29 AM Subject: [SPAMPROB:51%] Re: [Biofuel] threat to U.S. dollar Is there anything we at home can do to help speed this process? :) Joe AltEnergyNetwork wrote: http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=58951http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=58951http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=58951http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=58951 Threat against the US$ comes from countries such as Iran and Venezuela... Former Nordland University (Norway) associate professor, Dr. Abbas Bakhtiar writes: On Wednesday, May 17, the Dow Jones plunged 214 points to 11,206 -- its worst point drop since March 2003. The downward trend started a week ago and is a warning sign of troubles ahead. This sudden drop has come as a complete surprise to the unfortunate small investors and speculators. The so called experts point at the sudden threat of inflation as the main cause of the recent
Re: [Biofuel] threat to U.S. dollar
Robert, I do not really understand what you are saying. Who are the enemies? Who is responsible, if you have to do one or two devaluations, to adjust your economy? Who will be bombed and why, because I suppose that it is not US that is the target? Why would US start a WWIII over a such a simple issue as adjusting its economy. I have only outlined what happens in an economic adjustment, which is long overdue for US. Who are the rich that will lose and cause any such actions as bombings etc. It is not the oil and energy industries and it is not the property owners, both would gain. The other rich people, does not have the clout and influence, to start a meaningless bombing campaign. The devaluation will happen, because it is long overdue. I can not see how it can be avoided. The mistake is that it has been avoided too long and the final result is a major devaluation. Instead of two or three smaller ones, with time to adjust between them. The result of bad politicians that think more of themselves than the country. None wants to preside over a unpopular but necessary action. US is much less an empire today, than it was 20-40 years ago. It might still be seen as an evil empire in developing countries, where their corporations drain them on their natural resources. US is not an empire, because it have no colonies. Maybe it was a financial empire, but most of it is already lost and it is much more balance today. It is only South America that still have some reasons to be described as part of US financial empire. in the old sense. They are also running the largest risk of US military interventions, to secure US needs of energy and natural resources. Would however not happen at once and it would be a big mistake, since it is not winnable without local cooperation. US have de facto occupied South America for a long time now and we are seeing the start of the end of the puppet regimes that was the instrument. For sure, it will not work in middle east and the Iraq attempt will fail. Hakan At 18:57 30/05/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: snip You will see effects like the depression in the 30's and a lot of suicides, as it was then. (and from a follow up message) US will lose much of its financial wealth, import jobs are going to be lost. The average Joe will not go under in any way, but the wealthy 10% of the population, will be hurt a lot and many fortunes wiped out. Why US have been allowed to run so large debts and deficits, is because a lot of foreign fortunes will be wiped out also. The one who is the least effected, is the average American Joe, employed in local produce, distribution, export etc. You will see mushroom clouds above major cities long before this happens. When we go down, we will drag all the rest of you with us. The fundamental difference between the United States and other, earlier empires is that we have the capability to utterly destroy anyone we perceive as an enemy, and our current administration has already demonstrated that it has greater loyalties to the rich than to the rest of its citizens. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] [SPAMPROB:51%] Re: threat to U.S. dollar
Robert, I do not think that it is comparable with Brazil. I think that the depression in the 30s is a more adequate comparison. This because US is a democracy, educated population and leaders who can handle it. It has been several devaluations in Europe the last 40 years and they were done at proper timing. The only country who had severe problems, was Italy. US will be a bit harder, because the postponements, but hopefully have the competence to do it right. Yes, the rich will try to protect themselves and that is one of the reasons to the current US problems. It is no external threats to the US dollar, it is internal mismanagement. Hakan At 19:14 30/05/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, About your house and mortgage. Your house will go up in value after a devaluation and your mortgage will go down in value. In this case you will win, some time after the devaluation, when things improve. It will improve, because that is the whole purpose of the devaluation anyway and property is a safer investment. Hakan I remember hyperinflation in Brasil during the 1970's. For the price of a refrigerator one week, you could buy a 6 pack of Guarana the next! Banks raised their interest rates to compensate, mortgage payments rose and people whose incomes couldn't keep pace founnd their ability to sustain a living continually eroded. The rich will ALWAYS protect themselves. It's the rest of us who will suffer. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] threat to U.S. dollar
Robert, Now we are starting to get somewhere and thank you for posting a good and fuller description of the problem. It is however not possible to sustain and the corrections will come in a controlled or uncontrolled fashion. The damage that the current inactivity and activities who worsen the problem. will be severe for US and the industrialized world. The situation will not go away, that is for sure and US cannot afford the current war in Iraq. For only economic reasons, US get lesser and the financial empire smaller and smaller. It is no one to bomb, because it is none who is trying to get in control. The reality is that US lost the control and have none to blame for it, therefore it is a lack of targets for bombing. It is no one who is trying to target US for economic control or destruction of its economy, other than US itself. US is at the moment put in self destruct mode and even if the rest of the world like to help, it is not accepted or possible. There are many problems with the US economy, one is the belief that they could export services to balance the lack of production. The markets for US services have failed to materialize. As pointed out, the cost of engaging in war, only worsen the situation. The second world war saved the US economy, because they aided and sold war materials to Europe. A third world war will be US against the world and would not have any economical benefits. Iraq is an internal shift of wealth in US, but an external cost for the US population. US will not be able to get the future profits from the Iraqi oil, which I said a long time ago and it is clearer now. The article you refer to, describe the situation much better than I do, but also fail to suggest any solution. Other than maybe a meaningful devaluation with the austerity measures that must go with it. Hakan At 20:58 30/05/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: Robert, I do not really understand what you are saying. It's not your fault that I'm not communicating clearly! Who are the enemies? Anyone who attempts to exert control over the US economy, even if that control consists of protecting their investments in bonds, dollars and US assets. In essence everyone else is the enemy. We are, in effect, taxing foreigners by the gradual degradation of our currency in order to sustain our spending, and there are a LOT of people over here who are quite content to keep doing this. Who is responsible, if you have to do one or two devaluations, to adjust your economy? Mr. Nixon did this back in the 1970's, and by doing so initiated a round of inflation that benefitted property owners, as you've pointed out. Here is an excerpt from an online article that explains this. I've snipped it from the following page: http://www.tpmcafe.com/node/29686 However, devaluation, fast or slow, almost never produces the effect of moving economic activity from non-tradeable to tradeable goods. Instead, as with the Argentine devaluation, or the devaluation that occurred earlier in Bush's term, it moves the country towards more protectionism. As the value of a currency drops, consumers continue to spend, but transfer money from the local economy, to exporting deficits continue to rise, and investment in the home country falls. Or the home country proceeds to halt exports of materials far down the value chain, and attempts to add value and engage in import substitution. In effect converting inefficient non-tradeable parts of the economy to inefficient trading. The result is a loss of the advantages to trade as work that could be done more efficiently elsewhere is done inside the devaluing country. Since labor prices have dropped, this lower value add strategy works. This is what weak currencies really do by lowering the relative cost of labor, they make lower value add strategies more effective. Afterall, it isn' t the efficient non-tradeable production that goes first, it is the marginal non-tradeable production that will be shifted first. This is why devaluation only works if combined with some form of economic restructuring to radically shift incentives. Generally at the root of all overvalued currencies was an incentive to engage in the protected economy often through excessive budget outlays, but just as often through corrupt or collusive market practices. For example, a large and unproductive war for the benefit of a few industries. Such restructuring is painful, as people who have skills and capital lose out just ask American high tech workers, or Argentinians of any walk of life. This is why while devaluation which hurts mainly foreigners at first, is often a popular step in lieu of restructuring. The problem of course is that most nations import oil. For nations trying to reign in consumption, this is not a problem making oil more expensive acts as a luxury tax. For those with enough energy to support themselves, or nearly so, it is a burden, but a manageable one. For a nation like the US, which
Re: [Biofuel] [SPAMPROB:51%] Re: threat to U.S. dollar
If the dollar devaluate, which means that many countries are prepared to take their losses and give up on US, then your produce will be in high demand/price situation. Until they give up, the imports will be very competitive and since many exporters to US are pegged to the US dollar or even use it as their currency, all your competition will not be eliminated. It might also take a while, since your government do not want you to be successful in this business. They will do almost anything to see you fail. LOL Observe that I have not delivered any doomsday predictions, on the contrary I have only described why the dollar continues to survive. Looking at the basics, it is no strength in the fundamentals for the dollar. It will however be very interesting with the new oil bourses, that will trade in Euro, this is a substantial threat. If US attack Iran, it will be the real reason, anything else will be bad excuses. Without the support of being the oil currency, the dollar might take a nose dive. We do not know, but it is interesting. Hakan At 00:41 31/05/2006, you wrote: so if i bought a big chunk of land and opened a grocery store supplied by that land, i should be fine... - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [SPAMPROB:51%] Re: threat to U.S. dollar Mike, Why should you not have any income? Is your job very dependent on imports to US? Jobs for local produce, is the same or safer, export is safer than before. Imports would sell much less and a lot of jobs will be lost. It is many countries in the past, who have done 30 to 50% write down of their currencies. It is an adjustment to reflect the true value of the assets and businesses. I have experienced countries with 20 to 30% devaluation. The dollar in US is not worthless after a devaluation, you have to shift what you buy for it. You have to buy more US produced food, which is less effected by an devaluation. It is of course a major health risk, but you have no choice. Some national businesses will try to take advantage of the situation, but normally the government will introduce price control to stop this. To prepare? You can buy a low consuming foreign diesel car now, it is a win-win anyway you see it, with or without devaluation. It will be very cheap to buy an American car after devaluation, but the running cost will not be sustainable. US will lose much of its financial wealth, import jobs are going to be lost. The average Joe will not go under in any way, but the wealthy 10% of the population, will be hurt a lot and many fortunes wiped out. Why US have been allowed to run so large debts and deficits, is because a lot of foreign fortunes will be wiped out also. The one who is the least effected, is the average American Joe, employed in local produce, distribution, export etc. Hakan At 17:55 30/05/2006, you wrote: Hi Hakan...thanks for this well thought out response. I've read it carefully and tried to use my imagination more, but I'm still not clear on how any of us in the USA might specifically prepare for this. It seems having the house paid off is a good thing, although I'm not sure how I might pay property taxes and insurance if I have no income. What types of services do you think will fail and survive? I suppose if there is any stuff in the house I want to sell on eBay, I need to get it done immediately. Of course, what good will it do to have worthless US Dollars? I'm wondering if I should be buying Euros and socking them away??? If there are other people or places you feel I should turn to for these answers, please advise. Thanks again. Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] [SPAMPROB:51%] Re: threat to U.S. dollar Mike, It is not like US will implode, it can still largely maintain prices on domestic products. Imports will however effect price levels and domestic production that use large amounts of energy, will have to correct pricing. Since US is importing a lot of the energy use and also that the domestic energy production will follow the world markets, it is a much that will be effected. The US export will be effected positively and offset some of the negatives as a nation, but the average Joe will see this as negative and lowering of living standard. US will see a rush to buy US properties, companies and corporations by foreigners, which will be cheap and a way to use the large $ holdings. This will be a circus and US will try, within the limits, to stop this owner shifts. If they do nothing, it will be bad and if they do too much, it will be worse
Re: [Biofuel] Late Night in US
By operators of electronic voting machines. Hakan At 15:12 23/05/2006, you wrote: Could someone please remind me, because I forget... How the hell did Bush get re-elected?? Question for all of you who do not live in the United States: Do people in your area think that the US people support President Bush? Do those people realize that President Bush has an approval rating of 29%? I'm from Boston, Massachusetts, and darn it, I don't think I know anyone who would admit to voting for Bush in 2004 or who, when asked, would say that they would vote for Bush right now. Just wondering, -John On May 23, 2006, at 8:00 AM, Mike Weaver wrote: The Senate voted to make English the national language of the United States. The vote drew protests from several immigrant groups and one governor of California. --Conan O'Brien Even though it's a little bit controversial, President Bush supports the effort to make English our national language. The president says making English our national language is not 'discriminatious.' --Conan O'Brien The Pentagon announced today that Iraqs border is now 90% under control, which is pretty impressive when you realize San Diego's border is only 20% under control. --Jay Leno As you know, the National Guard stands by, ready to go into action any time the president of the United States feels there's a big enough of a disaster, like a major earthquake, a huge flood, a 29% approval rating. Any one of those things could trigger movement. --Jay Leno He went to a border town in Arizona yesterday. ... But, White House spokesman Tony Snow said it was not just a photo opportunity. No sirry Bob. Apparently, President Bush went down there looking for some guys about landscaping at the White House. --Jay Leno President Bush is pretty serious about this enforcement thing. In fact, before he left the border, he put up a scarecrow of Dick Cheney with a shotgun. --Jay Leno President Bush said today he has nothing but respect for Mexico and its people and he will always speak the truth to them. Here's my question: When can we get that deal? --Jay Leno The Senate voted to make English the national language. More bad news for President Bush. Now he's got to learn that. --Jay Leno The Senate voted 63 to 34 to make English the official language of the United States, but they say as a largely symbolic amendment with no real effect. You know, kind of like that ethics bill. --Jay Leno Pat Robertson said this week that God told him that possibly a tsunami could hit the Pacific northwest this year. I don't want to be disrespectful, but possibly? ... Like God's thinking 60/40. ... Pat, that wasn't God. You fell asleep in front of the weather channel. --Jay Leno As part of the ongoing immigration debate, the Senate on Thursday voted 64 to 34 to make English America's national language. Coming in second: '70s jive talk. Tina Fey A Senate committee on Thursday approved a constitutional amendment banning same sex marriage, apparently forgetting that our forefathers wore wigs and satin Capri pants. --Tina Fey Kenyan Muslims believe that a five-and-a-half pound tuna caught in the Indian Ocean off the coast of Mombasa, carries a message from Allah written among its scales. In a related story, this doctor [shows a picture of Bill Frist] doesn't think doesn't think condoms stop AIDS. And that's this week's edition of 'Religion Gone Nuts' --Tina Fey Many governors of northeastern states are unwilling to volunteer their National Guard troops to assist with President Bush's border plan. They want the Guard troops doing what they do best: freaking people out at Amtrak stations. Amy Poehler A Louisiana state Senate committee unanimously approved a ban on cock fighting, in what appears to be a first step in outlawing gay marriage --Amy Poehler President Bush is sending troops to the Mexican border. He's going to have them look for tequila of mass destruction. --David Letterman The Bush administration is tightening immigration now. In order to cross the United States, you have to have legal documentation. If you want to get into the United States you have to have legal documentation or a 95 mile an hour fast ball. --David Letterman The Senate yesterday voted to make English the national language of the United States and also our national muffin. The English muffin. I'm glad they took some time out to work on that. --Jimmy Kimmel It's all part of this immigration reform bill that they're working on to help us forget how much we don't like them in Congress. President Bush was in Arizona checking out plans for this new fence he's building. They really should let him actually build the fence. Give him a shovel. I think he'd be good at that. ... But, he's a busy man, the president. He's juggling immigration and tax cuts. He's listening into our phone calls. He's got the war. He's got other wars he's planning. --Jimmy Kimmel ___ Biofuel mailing list
Re: [Biofuel] Police Brutality in Ohio
At 16:57 23/05/2006, you wrote: snip People generally don't like being led around the doggy park by a leash (2,500 words) and told what to think or believe, even if it is from a granola source. If I was after pre-packaged, I'd buy Swansons and watch Fox Knows. snip I do think that you are wrong here. It looks like we get daily, if not hourly, proof that most people like to be led around the doogy park by a leash. Otherwise they would have kicked GWB in the butt a long time ago. That you do not like it, it quite obvious and I do not like it either. Like I mentioned to Mike Weaver, I got tired of the propaganda and stopped scrolling down. I did go to their archives and searched for a little more information. So it can't be said that I had neither interest or initiative. If you like to form your own opinion today, then you do need both interest and initiative, do not waste energy. To get most out of energy, is one of my favorite subjects http://energysavingnow.com/ do not say that I am not on topic. I managed to create a little constructive propaganda out of this. LOL Hakan Fault me for not caring for the author's/webmaster's style if you wish. But the point is that if they failed to capture my full attention as someone who has interest in such maladies, then they're probably going to fail to gain the attention of others at an exponential rate. Etc. (instead of repetition of all the text) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] What Would Crazy Horse Do?
Well, US have their own Holocaust history, as ugly, racial and unfair, as the German one. Almost all countries has such histories, that often are suppressed and the current winners banalize it. Even Sweden, Norway and Finland, have a very ugly past in their treatment and stealing from the indigenous population in the north. We are however here and now, the only thing we can do is to try to be honest and realize the true history of the rightness of our forefathers, it is often an ugly and criminal one. It is also important that the agreements that was done in the spirit of making things right are kept. That it is, with time and negligence, a costly proposition, cannot be an excuse. Hakan At 10:53 22/05/2006, you wrote: http://www.dissidentvoice.org/May06/Random19.htm Misconceptions in the Immigration Debate What Would Crazy Horse Do? by Jack Random We are not a nation of immigrants. We might have been. We nearly exterminated the entire population of indigenous peoples but in the end we failed. The natives are still here despite our determined drive to genocide. The tribes are still identifiable despite our determined campaign to scatter and destroy their languages, cultures and religious beliefs. We are not a nation of immigrants; we are a nation of conquerors. We are a nation that seizes by force what we desire. We are a nation that has never been content to share our discovered treasures. We did not steal the land from Mexico; we stole the land from the Apache, Lakota, Iroquois, Cherokee, Nez Perce, Cheyenne, Arapaho, Seminole, Blackfoot, Ute, Paiute and countless other tribes that still exist. We joined Mexico is stealing the land from those who did not wish to possess it but merely to live on it in harmony. We are not a nation of immigrants. We are a nation of natives and ungrateful visitors. We are not a nation of laws. We are a nation that bends laws to power. We are a nation that chooses not to enforce laws when they conflict with our designs or the all-powerful will of the international corporations that control our government. We are a nation that breaks laws at will and violates treaties and international agreements with willful abandon. We are not a nation of laws. We are a nation of lawyers, accountants and corporate boards of directors. When the president explains that employers have not been prosecuted for hiring illegal immigrants because the immigrants have mastered the art of document fraud, he is putting forth another myth. Employers have not been prosecuted because they are the president's constituents. They are in fact sponsors of politicians in all border states. Anyone who actually believes that the authorities will begin prosecuting employers because legal immigrants have better identification cards has drunk from the well of magical wonders. There may be selective prosecutions for show and political retribution but that is all. Anyone who believes that employers will stop hiring low-cost undocumented workers should let his psychotropic prescription lapse. We are not a nation of justice -- justice least of all. If we were a nation of justice, we would honor our debts. We would make just reparations to natives and African Americans who were compelled to migrate as slaves. What the nation owes to the Lakota (1) and Cherokee (2) alone amounts to more than what we will ultimately spend to destroy the nations of Afghanistan and Iraq -- more even than our national debt, a debt that is deeper than the skies over Bear Butte are wide. We are not a nation of justice. We are a nation of exploitation. We have conspired with corporate governments throughout the hemisphere to exploit labor and extract resources. We have created a free trade zone without factoring wages into the equation. Though it seems complex, it is not that difficult to understand. It follows the fundamental laws of supply, demand and profit taking. Corporations will seek all means of maximizing profits, including cutting the cost of production. Jobs will move to where the costs are least. Labor will move to where jobs pay living wages. Wherever possible, good paying jobs will be replaced by low paying jobs and no wall or barrier will prevent these laws from being carried out. In the corporate mind, it is a cold calculation: cost versus benefit. It is easy to see why our politicians ignore the root cause of the immigration problem: global trade policy. Republicans need a new scapegoat to replace the gays and abortion activists that have served them so well. Democrats cannot afford to alienate their corporate sponsors. What has happened to Mexico (a momentary beneficiary of job migration) is happening now in America. Regardless of immigration reform in whatever form it takes, we will continue to lose well-paid jobs and real wages will continue to decline until we understand that the cause of our misfortune resides with the corporate masters of a global economy and their proxies in government. It will continue until we
Re: [Biofuel] CEI runs PRO CARBON DIOXIDE ADS
Finally I looked at the videos and got surprised. How could any sane person participate in such an attempt. It would be a big joke, if it was not serious and part of a comic show. It is so amazing, stupid and in fact a criminal fraud. Hakan At 13:16 22/05/2006, you wrote: Paul S Cantrell wrote: This is a joke...Right? I mean, surely ExxonMobil doesn't think that we are ALL THIS DUMB, RIGHT? No, ExxonMobil *KNOWS* 'we' are all that dumb. The (surreal) videos of the 2 commercials: http://streams.cei.org/ Backed by ExxonMobil. Denialists with a vested interest. Not denialists, Contrarians. Resources: About CEI:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_Enterprise_Institute http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Competitive_Enterprise_Institute Reuters: http://tinyurl.com/jfdcb ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more canada biofuels
Fred, That is the problems with engineers, they do not read the whole thing! I had many engineers working with me and it is amazing how little they read, before starting to do things. It was my most used instruction, please read the manual. People like more to be told in detail what to do. I learned it by dismounting and mounting VW engine in my car and that was the easy one, when I was a teenager. I always got so many pieces left, after mounting the engine. Had to do it several times, because I did not looked at the details in the manual. Well, I was too young to have a car driving licence, so it kept me from breaking the law too often. Hakan At 23:40 17/05/2006, you wrote: Ryan, With your 8 years of education in engineering, biology, chemestry etc, etc... were you ever required to READ a manual? You have been directed to look at the available resources on numerous occasions and you have arrived here asking questions that the answers are clearly posted at Journey to Forever. You were pointed to them. There were even links. The element of responsibility has also escaped you. I don't want to get to far into that because it would be wasted. Let's just say that you are not the only one who lives on the planet and leave it at that. I am an aircraft mechanic by trade. Perhaps I should make my processor fly in order to be credible. I have converted others to the idea that they can do this without the Professional system. We need to show people that this can be done with crap, looks like crap and runs like a top. fred On 5/17/06, Ryan Pope mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fred, First, for background, I'm an engineer. It's ALL cost/gain analysis; it can always be build better, but its not worth the cost. OK now, I'm not looking for finacial gain, but rather prevention of financial loss. Where I am in my life right now means I am driving 90+ miles a day for work. I'm dropping $80 a week on diesel. PLUS, I LVE driving. I'm a driver; pack up the wife and daughter in the truck, and take a nice long trip down the unexplored backroads for a week. If I have to even CONSIDER not taking a vacation like this because of the fuel cost, then that is just beyond horrible. Once I switch to B100, no concerns. Once I switch my wife to B100, even better. I don't want to sell my biodiesel, just make enough for my family. And as far as the learning curve, not to be an ass, but mine wasn't steep. I've gone to college for biology, chemistry, chemical processing, and engineerring for the last,...oh-boy...8 years. So far there has been nothing involved that I haven't already done a half-dozen times in one organic chemistry lab or another, its just putting it all together and learning the nuances. I never got into biofuels because I was looking for a cheaper fuel than conventional fuels. I did; not ashamed of that. I have always been concerned about wisely using what resources we have. That is just a fabulous side effect for me. And because those people I know, also know ME (and my background), seeing me convert to alternate fuel lends creditability to it and makes them consider twice just writing it off as some hippie, greenie adventure. (no offense to you hippie, greenies on the list, but you know as well as I do how you are sometime seen). So this brings me to cost. Yes, I could build a system using recycled parts for next to nothing; but it would look like crap (again, no offense. I am the king of function over form for almost everything). But since part of my goal is to convert others and lend creditabilty, this ENGINEER needs to build a professional looking system, worthy of the 8 years everybody knows I spent in college for engineering. So I bought an inductor tank from a fertilized supplier instead of making one from a 50 gallon drum (paid less than half of what the biodiesel suppliers want, though). I bought new, clean, shiny plumbing, fittings, and hot water heater, from the absolute lowest cost sources I could find. So there were costs, which will be recuperated in under 5 months in fuel savings. OK, I'm going to cut this email off, and address Keith's comments in another, because I think that's a separate topic. Ryan From: Fred Finch mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] more canada biofuels Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 08:36:57 -0500 Hi Keith, Costs Hmmm...Return on Investments... When we start are all steep on the learning curve. Access to information is the key issue not access to the junk needed to build the processor. I did not begin to process a single drop of biodiesel until I read how to make small batches. My first batches were small. Single liter batches and scales measuring lye and methanol mixed in
Re: [Biofuel] American diesels
Jan, US does not have a requirement for cars to be certified for biofuels, Europe had this since 1996, which means that all gasoline are certified for ethanol (I do not know if it is E100 or E85) and diesels for B100, after 1996. If the American diesel is not available in Europe, it is not certified for the biofuel and maybe not suitable without modifications. Normal diesel automobiles are in US only 3% of total automobiles, for Europe this number is larger than 40%. Trucks, buses etc, are not included and have a much larger number of diesels, but not as high as Europe. So the real market for BD in US, is the market for commercial vehicles. This is my understanding of the information that I have received. Hakan At 21:45 18/05/2006, you wrote: Hello everybody in the Americas! I have one question for you concerning BD and the cars consuming it. It seems as if you all are prefering European cars for fueling BD instead of American diesels. Is that true, and in this case why? Arn´t GM:s diesels good for BD ? Jan Warnqvist ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more canada biofuels
Keith, Good that you are not to upset with them, it is not energy efficient. As you know, I have a some experience with the net and computers, it will take me less than 60 seconds to connect and correct the link to JTF. They have been aware of the faulty link for more than the 5 minutes it would take to get the message, check the link, correct it and test it again. I cannot claim that it was not a mistake, but I can claim that it is lng overdue to make the correction. If they have so much problems with making proper links on a web site, I would not touch anything that they do. Maybe Ryan could ask his child to make the correction, if he have one (he or she) over 8 years old, they would probably beat me in making the correction. LOL Hakan At 14:36 17/05/2006, you wrote: Hi Hakan Keith, So that is where they went, girl mark, tilly, john galt, etc., interesting. Not really, it's a strange sort of mixture, like a 100-yen shop. They do hang out at some of the links he has there. Obviously an attempt to make some money on biodiesel in Canada and maybe US. Yes, but there doesn't have to be any harm in that, in itself. I assume that they did not had the courtesy to ask you if they could copy and link to journeytoforever.org. At least the visitor will be curious and copy/paste the link and that works. I checked it! LOL So did I! LOL! His name's Rich Reilly, of BiodieselWarehouse (US). He emailed me some time ago, about something else he wanted to discuss, not this. Pleasant man, we sorted it out without any difficulty. He's okay, but he runs a shop. I don't think he's unscrupulous. Ryan just said it's useful. We don't insist on anything, but we encourage people to built their own stuff, we promote Reduce, Recycle, Reuse and so on. It leads to further development through the inevitable variations in the gear they make. But there's also the empowerment that goes with finding you actually can make your own high-quality fuel, and you actually made the processor too, especially if you made it out of recycled junk. If you can do that, what else can you do that you're not supposed to be able to and thought you couldn't? Quite a lot of people think that's a major part of making biodiesel, and it's the kind of attitude that spreads like a weed. As we can see. I haven't checked it, but IIRC Rich accepted that, but he also thinks there are a lot of people who just aren't going to do it, so he's catering for them. He's right, of course there are a lot of people like that. I don't think that's the way to create change, but I don't have any argument with it. When people lift a whole slab of stuff like that, design and all, especially when it's a commercial site not an educational one, there's the question of whether visitors there end up thinking we're endorsing that site. I don't think Rich did it for that reason though, he didn't strike me that way at all. The NBB link on journeytoforever.org is just a mistake. (I recommend Adobe GoLive.) But there's a context to it, though it has nothing to do with Rich Reilly. Recently (not here) there've been some comparisons made between the NBB and JtF, with JtF better or whatever. I had no part in it and I didn't like it. It came from something I'd said in private correspondence. I don't want to be put in competition with the NBB, or anyone. The NBB still likes to go public with the news that homebrewers can't make good fuel and you should stick with the professionals and so on, like here for instance, in the news article about Bob Allen: http://www.nwanews.com/adg/News/146919/ But unlike commercial biodiesel, the homemade fuel is not held to ASTM International specifications drafted to protect engines, said Jenna Higgins, spokesman for the National Biodiesel Board. Straight vegetable oil is, first of all, not a road-legal fuel, she said, and it is likely to cause engine damage. She said the same concern applies to fuels from home reactors. Either fuel would void engine warranties, she added. Jenna Higgins knows that's BS. It's been BS ever since we turned Graham Noyes of World Energy around at Biofuels-biz and it turned out that contrary to rumour it's the homebrewers who have to clean up the mess when the NBB stuff turns out to be non-ASTM junk that wrecks engines, not the other way round, homebrewers do quality, and Graham went and told the NBB that. But they keep on doing it anyway, like David Pimentel does with ethanol. And they try to exclude small brewers from the market. But that's not my problem. Some of that is on our website at the Quality section, but it's mainly there to defend and encourage homebrewers, rather than attacking the NBB. So now Rich goes and puts a link on a JtF url at his site that goes straight to the NBB! That's good for a chuckle. :-) Actually the NBB link is further down in the stuff he lifted, we link to them too. But it's an old version he used, that link was changed long ago. I just checked it at our site and the
Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules
Mike, Many of the high voltage transformers in electricity distribution are filled with oil for insulation and cooling purposes. In this case I belive it is mineral oils, but it is many years (40) since I worked with this and do not completely trust my memory. Hakan At 14:54 16/05/2006, you wrote: Ah, the computer. Understood. How about food grade, Citation and Avatech White Mineral Oil (for example)? http://www.avatarcorp.com/products_list.php/inid/3/catid/89/org/indus/catn/White%20Mineral%20Oil/?source=googlehttp://www.avatarcorp.com/products_list.php/inid/3/catid/89/org/indus/catn/White%20Mineral%20Oil/?source=google ...although mineral oils might actually conduct electricity. I haven't done enough research yet. In any event, I think it's quite possible to have a clear, non-conductive oil with relatively good heat transfer qualities. There are optical fluids (oils) used in the manufacture of some high power microscopes (for example). I snipped a portion from a site about oil cooled computers. I think it's applicable here. The gunk factor and the place smelling like vegetable oil makes me think that a petrochemical or mineral oil would be the best bet.. I suppose any reasonably non-conductive fluid medium would work. Heh.. Thinned-down petroleum jelly for a porn server? I wonder how conductive gasoline is.. http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/comments/3153/http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/comments/3153/ I like their spunk! Mike Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i wasnt talking about your idea, i was speaking of the computer. anyway if you were to go about it this way, you would need a white oil which is totally clear, and colorless because any color or particulates would lower the applied sunlight. this would produce more heat, yes, but the electrical power would be reduced. from an application standpoint the question is is the tradeoff worth it? it all depends on what results you are after. - Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 8:17 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules What does extreme mean? The way I see it, there is probably less materials (no special methods for interfacing PV panel and cooling). I visualize the PV panels in a clear, oil tight enclosure with an inlet, outlet, a length of tubing, heat exchanger (radiator) and circulating pump. As far as hardware is concerned, I don't see this as a huge departure from what we've already been talking about. Now, this thread contains lot of it won't work type statements which are not supported with a hell of a lot of information. Simply put, it's a bit of a turn-off. So, if you have a position that questions the validity of an idea, please back it up with something more than that's just a touchbit extreme Thank you in advance. Mike Jason Katie wrote: that's just a touchbit extreme... - Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 7:25 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules As we all know, there are a lot of ways to harvest waste heat but the one that stands out in my mind is from a message posted about six months ago. I don't know if this is a solution, but I'm definitely curious to know one way or the other. http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg59540.html 1) Oils are generally non-conductive so, the PV cells can be immersed in it without shorting. 2.) Some oils can come with fairly good optical qualities - important for passing light to PV and transforming light to electricity. Joe: I remember reading your post about experimenting with black bodies and it looks like you have a background that may be useful here. Maybe you can chime in (if your reading this thread)? Mike [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] more canada biofuels
Keith, So that is where they went, girl mark, tilly, john galt, etc., interesting. Obviously an attempt to make some money on biodiesel in Canada and maybe US. I assume that they did not had the courtesy to ask you if they could copy and link to journeytoforever.org. At least the visitor will be curious and copy/paste the link and that works. I checked it! LOL Do not worry about this, it is not worth it and it is not sustainable! anyway, maybe annoying. It take a lot more experiences, brain power and noble goals to create something like JTF and it also takes a lot of good people to have a list like this. Hakan At 21:37 16/05/2006, you wrote: Hi Jesse Anyone seen this? Thoughts? Jesse http://www.diyfuel.com/ca/ Yeah, it's the guy in the US who has Darryl Hannah on his site. I like this bit here: http://www.diyfuel.com/index.php?cPath=34 Biodiesel facts, with the whole section lifted straight from Journey to Forever. He says so, and puts it on a link that says: www.journeytoforever.org, which is wrong, it should be journeytoforever.org, no www - it would work anyway, but instead of linking to JtF it links to the NBB: http://www.biodiesel.org/news/bulletin/1998/0498.pdf The page cannot be found. LOL! You have to pick and choose. Some good stuff, lots of junk too, and he doesn't tell you which is which. He's okay, but you need to get good info elsewhere first. Sells Crappleseeds, still with the same old pump that's too small, and they're not cheap, but at least they're not FuelMeisters. Build yer own. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules
Zeke, Thermal solar panels can reach surface temperatures around 400 degree Celsius, but with pump or thermal driven circulation the water temperatures will not reach boiling temperature and open system can be used. I have such a system on my roof. Generally the efficiency is around 35%. The normal PV cells have 8 to 12% efficiency and the new high efficient ones around 34% efficiency, need cooling in concentrator applications. If the concentrator is not too efficient, they can be mounted on an air cooling device, similar to what is used for electronic components, otherwise they must have liquid cooling. Design criteria for thermal solar panels was researched by Spanish and Swedish Universities in Almeria, Spain, in 1960's. This was used by a Swedish company, that now deliver 70% of the world market for commercial thermal solar elements. They are delivered in rolls, cut to size and the space for the liquid is then expanded with air pressure. This is my understanding of the quite interesting current technological situation. Since you did your master on solar panels, it would be very interesting to get your view on where this is moving and perspective on future possibilities. Hakan At 00:29 14/05/2006, you wrote: This is exactly what I did my master's thesis on. The concept works pretty well from a theoretical perspective. I was just investigating using water cooling for non-concrentrating PV, but it would work even better for concentrating PV. You shouldn't really have to deal with 1200F, at least if you are talking about water, because the maximum working temp for a water based fluid is probably about 400F or so?? (assuming antifreeze additives and increased pressure). Depends on how much pressure you are talking about I guess. On 5/13/06, Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in theory, if one could find a way to waterproof the back of a PV cell it could be used as the heat-side plate in this concentrator/boiler found at (or after) http://www.ida.net/users/tetonsl/solar/page_46.htm you could safely increase the power range of a smaller PV cell without too horrible of a heat loss. the problem is finding a sealing substance that wont melt or burn under these 1200*F temperatures. - Original Message - From: logan vilas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 4:54 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules I am working with the idea of building my own Concentrator with about 50 times the mirror space then collector space. That Is why the question was asked in the first place I was wondering if placeing a 50watt solar panel at the focal point would increase the power output. I've read that it is more then 100% liner increase in power output when increasing the amount of light on it. a normal panel at 50 watts would be 2500 watts at 50 suns. I know it would need to be kept cool. due to the fact that they are only 20-30% efficent, but I could use the coolant to heat my biodiesel processor, then the hot water going into my home before a tankless heater. If I were to get a grid tied inverter It would suppliment my normal power useage and maby with netmetering it might come close to canceling out my power requirements alltogther. a simple temp sensor could be used so if the temp is over 150f in the coolant it will shut down and not collect the sun anymore. As for a solar tracker that is relative easy with very simple electronics. The setup to hold everything would be a simple build for most people who can make their own biodiesel processor. And If I base it off a 7 meter dish I can get those free. I just have to use the labor to remove it. Logan Vilas - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules I am speaking mostly from experience, from what I have seen work and fail in the field, and what I can buy to install for my clients. The reason I talk about trackers on large poles is because that is what is commercially sold right now (at least in the US, europe is ahead of us in many areas). And the biggest reason I see for failed systems is lack of maintenance (mostly batteries, but also anything that moves). Also, the number of new innovative PV systems that I have seen come on the market over the years, only to dissapear within another year... We're still basically doing the same thing as PV was in the 70's, with incremental improvements in efficiency and incremental cost decreases. I called the concrentrating PV exotic merely because I can't call up one of 200 some suppliers and buy one that meets all current electrical code, whereas I can with silicon PV modules. Maybe another breakthrough is coming, but in the mean time, alot
Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
Zeke, This is depressing, as I understand it, democrats are morons and republicans super scrub morons. Where are the reasonable, sensible and knowledgeable Americans? Statistically it must at least be some of them. On this list I think I detected several. Hakan At 16:29 12/05/2006, you wrote: I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists -- morons would be the best description I can think of for them. On 5/12/06, Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ray, Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is an insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election, I doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only candidate. However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party. They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses to the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility in the mainstream media. Camejo's campaign gives the right answers http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml The Democrats aren't a solution http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml Mike Ray in Atlanta GA [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists, excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump on Shrub's band wagon. Ray in Atlanta GA D. Mindock wrote: This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all the info on citizens possible to be stored in a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to accept that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database of your airline flights. When they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can believe it will be much longer than that. Just like your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained for at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our Congress reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive, devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye Dick appear to be out-of-control. Work for Peace, D. Mindock The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts, airlines, and civil libertarians. *Three-Day Quarantine* Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in quarantine for as long as three days. *Detailed Information* The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed contact information from their passengers, including the names of any traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans. The information would be stored for at least two months, and would be provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the government asked for it. USA Today April 25, 2006 [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
Mike, Gulags yes, but it is in Cuba of course and a bit warmer than Siberia, this philosophy to use non national soil is a step further. Assassinate, we do not really know, if we exclude Iraq of course. In Iraq it is FFA, except for the English who prosecute their military if they murder Iraqi civilians and they find out about it. Hakan At 23:22 12/05/2006, you wrote: Only if they can use tax dollars to build gulags and assassinate with impunity. We're not their yet. Mike Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as stalinist? would that be a fitting label? - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall To: Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists -- morons would be the best description I can think of for them. On 5/12/06, Michael Redler wrote: Ray, Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is an insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election, I doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only candidate. However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party. They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses to the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility in the mainstream media. Camejo's campaign gives the right answers http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml The Democrats aren't a solution http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml Mike Ray in Atlanta GA wrote: Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists, excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump on Shrub's band wagon. Ray in Atlanta GA D. Mindock wrote: This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all the info on citizens possible to be stored in a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to accept that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database of your airline flights. When they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can believe it will be much longer than that. Just like your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained for at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our Congress reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive, devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye Dick appear to be out-of-control. Work for Peace, D. Mindock The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts, airlines, and civil libertarians. *Three-Day Quarantine* Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in quarantine for as long as three days. *Detailed Information* The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed contact information from their passengers, including the names of any traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans. The information would be stored for at least two months, and would be provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the government asked for it. USA Today April 25, 2006 [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax
Mike, You mentioned Gulags and if I am not wrong, US have something very similar or worse in Gutanamo. It is also now clear that people got kidnapped by US and sent to secret jails or other nations for questioning. The principle and use are roughly the same as the Gulags. Yes, the democrats are not using Stalinist methods, but Bush is doing his best. You are right, the democrats are not there yet, it is the republicans. I assume that they are using the tax dollars for it also. Stalin hijacked the communist idea and built an apparatus to spy and control the citizens. Stalin's USSR had little to do with Lenin's communist ideas. Today we know that there were links between Lenin and the financial powers in Europe and US. Lenin in his French exile was financially supported and it was corporate powers who worked on a regime change and democracy in Russia. Stalin was probably a dark horse in this and an uneducated leader, who was unsuitable to lead Russia into the industrial revolution. He was a product of a backlash and an unwanted surprise. The pattern for Lenin, follows the pattern that later brought AH to power in Germany. He also built Gulags/Gutanamos to control the people. AH clearly had corporate support and western ideas. This were the big historical dictators, helped and supported by corporations. Then we have numerous small examples in Europe, Far East, Africa and South America and the current backlash against them. History take 100 years to write and it not until now, that we start to get perspective on what happened in the period before the Russian revolution and WWI. Hakan At 00:12 13/05/2006, you wrote: Someone asked: i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as Stalinist? would that be a fitting label?If I understood the question correctly, it was (tongue-in-cheek) about using the label Stalinist on Democrats. Of course, I could be mistaken. In any event, I have no idea how Cuba entered the conversation. You wrote: ...this philosophy to use non national soil is a step further. I don't understand what you are trying to say. I'm guessing you are referring to Russia using Cuba to extend it's expansionist agenda. If true, I'm not sure where it fits into the conversation. Mike Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, Gulags yes, but it is in Cuba of course and a bit warmer than Siberia, this philosophy to use non national soil is a step further. Assassinate, we do not really know, if we exclude Iraq of course. In Iraq it is FFA, except for the English who prosecute their military if they murder Iraqi civilians and they find out about it. Hakan At 23:22 12/05/2006, you wrote: Only if they can use tax dollars to build gulags and assassinate with impunity. We're not their yet. Mike Jason Katie mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as stalinist? would that be a fitting label? - Original Message - From: Zeke Yewdall To: Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax I would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists -- morons would be the best description I can think of for them. On 5/12/06, Michael Redler wrote: Ray, Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is an insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election, I doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only candidate. However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party. They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses to the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility in the mainstream media. Camejo's campaign gives the right answers http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtmlhttp://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml The Democrats aren't a solution http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Demshttp://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtmlhttp://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml Mike Ray in Atlanta GA wrote: Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists, excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump on Shrub's band wagon. Ray in Atlanta GA D. Mindock wrote: This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all the info on citizens possible to be stored in a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to accept that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database of your airline flights. When they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can believe it will be much longer than that. Just like your online traffic through
Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor
for the wrong doeings of the Nazis even i was born in 48! eh bien and so on... Get better Hakan,there is no time to loose Fritz - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Hakan Falk To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran Fritz, Have a strong feeling of dejavu and this time I will save the info in a special place. Pre Iraq, I saw similar figures and also some support on this list. Today it is overwhelming negative numbers in support for the Iraq war and approval ratings for the president. Maybe I should frame this, for future use. Talk about a violent population, 77% in support of military action and killing Iranians. In two years we will have 65% in denial and against the US engagement in Iran. It will be an even bigger mess than Iraq, with attacks all over the world. Hakan At 20:07 07/05/2006, you wrote: just received Fritz Poll: Strong U.S. Support for Bombing Iran An Internet poll sponsored by NewsMax.com reveals that Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of the United States undertaking military action to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program. Nearly 60,000 people have taken part in the poll so far, and more than nine out of 10 say U.S. efforts to contain Iran's weapons program are not working. A large majority of respondents also believe that Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War. NewsMax will provide the results of this poll to major media and share them with radio talk-show hosts across the country. Here are the poll questions and results: 1) Do you believe U.S. efforts to contain Iran's nuclear weapons program are working? Working: 7 percent Not Working: 93 percent 2) Should the United States rely solely on the U.N. to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program? Yes: 11 percent No: 89 percent 3) Do you believe Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War? Yes: 88 percent No: 12 percent 4) Should the U.S. undertake military action against Iran to stop their program? Yes: 77 percent No: 23 percent 5) Who should undertake military action against Iran first? U.S.: 45 percent Israel: 35 percent Neither: 20 percent ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor
campaign against Iran. How come your reply doesn't even mention the word Iran in your haste to defend... to defend what, exactly? Who owns and controls this website? Fritz, have you asked anyone at NewsMax how this poll was conducted? What are the demographics of this poll? I see on their homepage as of today, Sunday, May 7, just after 7pm Central (USA), where they site a poll WITH HEADLINES that says Fox is the most trusted news source in the U.S., but the story says we're talking about 11% of the public making it this popular. Hey, if only roughly One in Ten Americans are fatheads, we're not doin' too bad. I wouldn't be surprised if a large percentage of these 11% make up the largest percentage of the voters who answered the NewsMax poll, which would make that 77% actually an incredibly small percentage of the U.S. population. Sorry you blame the ordinary U.S. citizen for however our government acts. We've just dealt with this, in the torture thread. Please go and read it. You are complicit. What are you doing about it? You're obliged to be aware of what your government does abroad with your tax money, and if you do nothing to counter it you are complicit. What other people or other governments do is beside the point. The only exception is if you live under a totalitarian dictatorship, then you're not complicit because you're just a helpless slave. What's the deal in your country? Is your government walking in lockstep with the will of the overwhelming majority of the ordinary citizens? What is ordinary anyway I'll leave it at that for now. Sorry, you'll have to respond, those are the rules here. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Mike - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Fritz Friesinger To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran Hakan, indeed dejea vu, once the propagandamachine works as fine as it does in the US,all out war is'nt far away! The whole polemic about the communist threat BS, it was and is always the migthy US who uses Nukes to intimidate the rest of the world! I dispise them for it and can not help to blame the ordinary US Citicen.As a German i felt long time the blame for the wrong doeings of the Nazis even i was born in 48! eh bien and so on... Get better Hakan,there is no time to loose Fritz - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Hakan Falk To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran Fritz, Have a strong feeling of dejavu and this time I will save the info in a special place. Pre Iraq, I saw similar figures and also some support on this list. Today it is overwhelming negative numbers in support for the Iraq war and approval ratings for the president. Maybe I should frame this, for future use. Talk about a violent population, 77% in support of military action and killing Iranians. In two years we will have 65% in denial and against the US engagement in Iran. It will be an even bigger mess than Iraq, with attacks all over the world. Hakan At 20:07 07/05/2006, you wrote: just received Fritz Poll: Strong U.S. Support for Bombing Iran An Internet poll sponsored by NewsMax.com reveals that Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of the United States undertaking military action to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program. Nearly 60,000 people have taken part in the poll so far, and more than nine out of 10 say U.S. efforts to contain Iran's weapons program are not working. A large majority of respondents also believe that Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War. NewsMax will provide the results of this poll to major media and share them with radio talk-show hosts across the country. Here are the poll questions and results: 1) Do you believe U.S. efforts to contain Iran's nuclear weapons program are working? Working: 7 percent Not Working: 93 percent 2) Should the United States rely solely on the U.N. to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program? Yes: 11 percent No: 89 percent 3) Do you believe Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War? Yes: 88 percent No: 12 percent 4) Should the U.S. undertake military action against Iran to stop their program
Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran
fear and loathing campaign against Iran. How come your reply doesn't even mention the word Iran in your haste to defend... to defend what, exactly? Who owns and controls this website? Fritz, have you asked anyone at NewsMax how this poll was conducted? What are the demographics of this poll? I see on their homepage as of today, Sunday, May 7, just after 7pm Central (USA), where they site a poll WITH HEADLINES that says Fox is the most trusted news source in the U.S., but the story says we're talking about 11% of the public making it this popular. Hey, if only roughly One in Ten Americans are fatheads, we're not doin' too bad. I wouldn't be surprised if a large percentage of these 11% make up the largest percentage of the voters who answered the NewsMax poll, which would make that 77% actually an incredibly small percentage of the U.S. population. Sorry you blame the ordinary U.S. citizen for however our government acts. We've just dealt with this, in the torture thread. Please go and read it. You are complicit. What are you doing about it? You're obliged to be aware of what your government does abroad with your tax money, and if you do nothing to counter it you are complicit. What other people or other governments do is beside the point. The only exception is if you live under a totalitarian dictatorship, then you're not complicit because you're just a helpless slave. What's the deal in your country? Is your government walking in lockstep with the will of the overwhelming majority of the ordinary citizens? What is ordinary anyway I'll leave it at that for now. Sorry, you'll have to respond, those are the rules here. Keith Addison Journey to Forever KYOTO Pref., Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel list owner Mike - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Fritz Friesinger To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 5:09 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran Hakan, indeed dejea vu, once the propagandamachine works as fine as it does in the US,all out war is'nt far away! The whole polemic about the communist threat BS, it was and is always the migthy US who uses Nukes to intimidate the rest of the world! I dispise them for it and can not help to blame the ordinary US Citicen.As a German i felt long time the blame for the wrong doeings of the Nazis even i was born in 48! eh bien and so on... Get better Hakan,there is no time to loose Fritz - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Hakan Falk To: mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.orgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran Fritz, Have a strong feeling of dejavu and this time I will save the info in a special place. Pre Iraq, I saw similar figures and also some support on this list. Today it is overwhelming negative numbers in support for the Iraq war and approval ratings for the president. Maybe I should frame this, for future use. Talk about a violent population, 77% in support of military action and killing Iranians. In two years we will have 65% in denial and against the US engagement in Iran. It will be an even bigger mess than Iraq, with attacks all over the world. Hakan At 20:07 07/05/2006, you wrote: just received Fritz Poll: Strong U.S. Support for Bombing Iran An Internet poll sponsored by NewsMax.com reveals that Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of the United States undertaking military action to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program. Nearly 60,000 people have taken part in the poll so far, and more than nine out of 10 say U.S. efforts to contain Iran's weapons program are not working. A large majority of respondents also believe that Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War. NewsMax will provide the results of this poll to major media and share them with radio talk-show hosts across the country. Here are the poll questions and results: 1) Do you believe U.S. efforts to contain Iran's nuclear weapons program are working? Working: 7 percent Not Working: 93 percent 2) Should the United States rely solely on the U.N. to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program? Yes: 11 percent No: 89 percent 3) Do you believe Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War? Yes: 88 percent No: 12 percent 4) Should the U.S. undertake military action against Iran to stop their program? Yes: 77 percent No: 23 percent 5) Who should undertake military action against Iran first? U.S.: 45 percent Israel: 35 percent Neither: 20 percent ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of bombing Iran
It goes deeper than short memory and only the Bush machine. Bush is only taking unfair advantages of a much large and loner term effort. For the Americans the WWII has not yet stopped, so also the fight against an illusive communism. It is a part of the general picture of keeping the Americans happy in their belive about heroism and the good purposes, it is a part of empire building. It is not new, the Greeks and Romans understood this well, with the gladiator games. They keep us, the public, entertained and controllable. The motives and the gains are obscure with smoke screen of higher moral values. AH understood this and voiced many times an envy over the American skills. He built his propaganda apparatus with US as the model, he was especially impressed by the Hollywood part of it. Hakan At 04:54 08/05/2006, you wrote: I think this poll shows how the short term memory of Americans is totally lacking. Also it shows how effective the propaganda machine of BushCo is. In a word, terrorfying. Peace, D. Mindock P.S. We have met the enemy and he is us. Poll: Strong U.S. Support for Bombing Iran An Internet poll sponsored by NewsMax.com reveals that Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of the United States undertaking military action to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program. Nearly 60,000 people have taken part in the poll so far, and more than nine out of 10 say U.S. efforts to contain Iran's weapons program are not working. A large majority of respondents also believe that Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War. NewsMax will provide the results of this poll to major media and share them with radio talk-show hosts across the country. Here are the poll questions and results: 1) Do you believe U.S. efforts to contain Iran's nuclear weapons program are working? Working: 7 percent Not Working: 93 percent 2) Should the United States rely solely on the U.N. to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program? Yes: 11 percent No: 89 percent 3) Do you believe Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War? Yes: 88 percent No: 12 percent 4) Should the U.S. undertake military action against Iran to stop their program? Yes: 77 percent No: 23 percent 5) Who should undertake military action against Iran first? U.S.: 45 percent Israel: 35 percent Neither: 20 percent ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of bombing Iran
Mike, Since I think I introduced corporacracy (in greek, corporation power as opposite to democracy that is people power) on this list and think it describes well this phenomena. A logical definition of capitalism is today is better described as corporatism. What I mean is that it could easily replace both communism and capitalism, since it is and has always been a question of which elite group that take the power. Interesting that you brought in Stalin in this, maybe he and Bush are only the two sides of the same coin, in representing a relatively small groups interests. Lenin by the way, was heavily supported by the emerging American corporations, who instigated the Russian revolution. Hakan At 14:25 08/05/2006, you wrote: Hakan, ...so also the fight against an illusive communism. Illusive is a good word to describe it, although I prefer to call it non-existant? The confrontation was between the US and an expanding fascist empire in Russia. However, calling it communist is as deceptive as the so called war on terror, war on drugs or war on..., etc. Either way, I think we're on the same page and in my opinion, your observation is an important one. When the Stalinist bureaucracy arose beginning in the early 1920s, Trotsky, who had been the key organizer of the 1917 insurrection and who had led the Red Army to victory in the Civil War, became the champion of the fight against Stalin. Before his death in 1924, Lenin had begun to challenge the rising bureaucracy, which included a proposal (suppressed by the central committee after his death) to remove Stalin from his position as General Secretary of the party. http://www.socialistworker.org/2005-1/543/543_09_Intenationalism.shtmlhttp://www.socialistworker.org/2005-1/543/543_09_Intenationalism.shtml Mike Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It goes deeper than short memory and only the Bush machine. Bush is only taking unfair advantages of a much large and loner term effort. For the Americans the WWII has not yet stopped, so also the fight against an illusive communism. It is a part of the general picture of keeping the Americans happy in their belive about heroism and the good purposes, it is a part of empire building. It is not new, the Greeks and Romans understood this well, with the gladiator games. They keep us, the public, entertained and controllable. The motives and the gains are obscure with smoke screen of higher moral values. AH understood this and voiced many times an envy over the American skills. He built his propaganda apparatus with US as the model, he was especially impressed by the Hollywood part of it. Hakan At 04:54 08/05/2006, you wrote: I think this poll shows how the short term memory of Americans is totally lacking. Also it shows how effective the propaganda machine of BushCo is. In a word, terrorfying. Peace, D. Mindock P.S. We have met the enemy and he is us. Poll: Strong U.S. Support for Bombing Iran An Internet poll sponsored by NewsMax.com reveals that Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of the United States undertaking military action to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program. Nearly 60,000 people have taken part in the poll so far, and more than nine out of 10 say U.S. efforts to contain Iran's weapons program are not working. A large majority of respondents also believe that Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War. NewsMax will provide the results of this poll to major media and share them with radio talk-show hosts across the country. Here are the poll questions and results: 1) Do you believe U.S. efforts to contain Iran's nuclear weapons program are working? Working: 7 percent Not Working: 93 percent 2) Should the United States rely solely on the U.N. to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program? Yes: 11 percent No: 89 percent 3) Do you believe Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War? Yes: 88 percent No: 12 percent 4) Should the U.S. undertake military action against Iran to stop their program? Yes: 77 percent No: 23 percent 5) Who should undertake military action against Iran first? U.S.: 45 percent Israel: 35 percent Neither: 20 percent ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of bombing Iran
Mike, Lenin had western support, from industrial interests, this is documented. I even read about Lenins return to Russia, which was arranged by western friends. Trotsky supported by competing western interest, yes. Stalin, I do not know enough and have not seen any records of that, he also had minimal western exposure, compared with the others. It is however records of that the industrialist expected that Russia would offer more opportunities after the revolution, which never materialized. They flirted heavily with Stalin. The major corporate players was the French, Germans and to much lesser extent US. As with Vietnam, the Americans tried to jump in when the French failed, they never learn. It was probably the backlash from the disappointment of the Russian revolution, that made the Germans to support and bring AH to power. AH was for a long time seen as the defender against communism and had support from the industrialists and royalists during the 1930's, when the west was afraid of communist revolutions. AH's invasion of Austria was both supported and welcomed by Austria and the west. It was not until the invasion of Poland that France and UK acted, with the mutual defense treaty with Poland as the reason. France by a lackluster attack on Germany, which led to WWII. AH was an Austrian as you know, not German, he was also a corporal in the royal army during WWI. I am convinced that there are many more revelations in the pipe line in the coming decades. The real history take at least 100 years to write, they say. By the way, it was similar naive expectations on that the Americans would be welcomed by the people on the streets, as in Iraq and Afghanistan. They never learn. Hakan At 16:51 08/05/2006, you wrote: Hakan, You said: What I mean is that it could easily replace both communism and capitalism, since it is and has always been a question of which elite group that take the power. I respectfully disagree. Re: Replacing Communism 1.) You can't replace what hasn't existed. If you mean Stalinism, then say it. 2.) Show me where Marx proposes elitism in the manifesto. Communism was A RESPONSE TO elitism and the imbalance of a class society. Re: Replacing Capitalism - Corporatism and capitalism must coexist. One represents the logical progression of the other and (IMO) can only be quantified since it's existence is a forgone conclusion. I don't even feel comfortable making a direct comparison between capitalism and any model of government since elements of it exists everywhere. Both capitalism and libertarianism exist in democracies as well as anarchist states (for example). They are elements of a larger scheme. If Lenin and the Bolsheviks were supported by corporations, it certainly wasn't welcome (unless of course they were willing to redistribute their wealth). Early in the revolution, Trotsky and the Mensheviks may have welcomed that kind of support (although I doubt it) until he joined Lenin and fought together on the same side. You need to back up your statement with some more information. To my knowledge, there were many events that led to the Russian revolution, like the February 1917 bread riot during a woman's day celebration. The counterinsurgency was fought by the Czar's White Army with troop support from the US. I know of no serious contribution to the Bolsheviks by US corporations. If anything, corporations may have assisted in putting down the revolution by supporting Stalin. Mike Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike, Since I think I introduced corporacracy (in greek, corporation power as opposite to democracy that is people power) on this list and think it describes well this phenomena. A logical definition of capitalism is today is better described as corporatism. What I mean is that it could easily replace both communism and capitalism, since it is and has always been a question of which elite group that take the power. Interesting that you brought in Stalin in this, maybe he and Bush are only the two sides of the same coin, in representing a relatively small groups interests. Lenin by the way, was heavily supported by the emerging American corporations, who instigated the Russian revolution. Hakan At 14:25 08/05/2006, you wrote: Hakan, ...so also the fight against an illusive communism. Illusive is a good word to describe it, although I prefer to call it non-existant? The confrontation was between the US and an expanding fascist empire in Russia. However, calling it communist is as deceptive as the so called war on terror, war on drugs or war on..., etc. Either way, I think we're on the same page and in my opinion, your observation is an important one. When the Stalinist bureaucracy arose beginning in the early 1920s, Trotsky, who had been the key organizer of the 1917 insurrection and who had led the Red Army to victory in the Civil War, became the champion of the fight against Stalin. Before his
Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of bombing Iran
Mike, I think that you misunderstood what I said, deliberately or not, and to start an ideological debate. What I wanted to point out, was the similarities in that both (or all three), was set up for a relatively small group to control the people. The US democracy of today, is also in reality govern by corporate interests in US. The only that will be interesting is how the two term rule going to be handled in US. Hakan At 21:06 08/05/2006, you wrote: Hakan, You wrote: Lenin had western support, from industrial interests, this is documented. Documented? Where? Perhaps it's filed under L just before the Leuchter report. Lenin and Trotsky were influential in the creation of the first labor movement in the US (IWW) by virtue of one of it's most influential leaders, Eugene Debs - a Socialist. The first labor leaders followed Trotsky ideology. Why would industrialists support an organization which brought power to the masses. More importantly, why on Earth would leaders of that movement embrace those who want to take it away? You have no direct response to anything I've posted so far. You suggest that a corporacracy (as if one can differentiate between that and capitalism) will replace communism when a communist state has yet to emerge, giving you nothing to replace. I stated that Communism was a response to elitism and the imbalance of a class society. I even challenged you to show me where Marx proposes elitism in the Manifesto (a document which led to Lenin's vision of revolution in Russia). I mention US military support of the Czar's White Army and still, you feel that US industrialists oppose both their government and their own ideology by supporting the Bolsheviks. Despite all that, you just keep going without missing a beat. Mike R Hakan Falk wrote: Mike, Lenin had western support, from industrial interests, this is documented. I even read about Lenins return to Russia, which was arranged by western friends. Trotsky supported by competing western interest, yes. Stalin, I do not know enough and have not seen any records of that, he also had minimal western exposure, compared with the others. It is however records of that the industrialist expected that Russia would offer more opportunities after the revolution, which never materialized. They flirted heavily with Stalin. The major corporate players was the French, Germans and to much lesser extent US. As with Vietnam, the Americans tried to jump in when the French failed, they never learn. It was probably the backlash from the disappointment of the Russian revolution, that made the Germans to support and bring AH to power. AH was for a long time seen as the defender against communism and had support from the industrialists and royalists during the 1930's, when the west was afraid of communist revolutions. AH's invasion of Austria was both supported and welcomed by Austria and the west. It was not until the invasion of Poland that France and UK acted, with the mutual defense treaty with Poland as the reason. France by a lackluster attack on Germany, which led to WWII. AH was an Austrian as you know, not German, he was also a corporal in the royal army during WWI. I am convinced that there are many more revelations in the pipe line in the coming decades. The real history take at least 100 years to write, they say. By the way, it was similar naive expectations on that the Americans would be welcomed by the people on the streets, as in Iraq and Afghanistan. They never learn. Hakan At 16:51 08/05/2006, you wrote: Hakan, You said: What I mean is that it could easily replace both communism and capitalism, since it is and has always been a question of which elite group that take the power. I respectfully disagree. Re: Replacing Communism 1.) You can't replace what hasn't existed. If you mean Stalinism, then say it. 2.) Show me where Marx proposes elitism in the manifesto. Communism was A RESPONSE TO elitism and the imbalance of a class society. Re: Replacing Capitalism - Corporatism and capitalism must coexist. One represents the logical progression of the other and (IMO) can only be quantified since it's existence is a forgone conclusion. I don't even feel comfortable making a direct comparison between capitalism and any model of government since elements of it exists everywhere. Both capitalism and libertarianism exist in democracies as well as anarchist states (for example). They are elements of a larger scheme. If Lenin and the Bolsheviks were supported by corporations, it certainly wasn't welcome (unless of course they were willing to redistribute their wealth). Early in the revolution, Trotsky and the Mensheviks may have welcomed that kind of support (although I doubt it) until he joined Lenin and fought together on the same side. You need to back up your statement with some more
Re: [Biofuel] PLEASE READ - Re: Sweet catalyst continuous processes
Gustl, You are absolutely right, I remember that you were not alone and you had strong support from me among several other members on the list. I have never heard Keith request or ask for donations, on the contrary, he have always supported the biodiesel community, without asking anything in return. Maybe he sometimes, with reasons, been quite tough with some list members that was totally out of line. Gustl and Keith, between us I am probably the oldest and as it happens a little bit sick now. Nothing serious, being sick will pass, contrary to being an idiot, as the one who calls Keith a sick old man. Hakan At 16:38 07/05/2006, you wrote: Hallo Keith, Just in case people weren't around during the time the list suffered from the denial of service and mail flooding time let me tell that when we changed servers it was me, Gustl Steiner-Zehender, who called for donations to defray costs not you. I handled the money and saw that it was all accounted for and properly distributed. I also was responsible for receipts for donations and due to computer problems and lost information I think that may have been mishandled although not intentionally. I believe I still owe a fellow living in Saudi Arabia a receipt for his very generous donation although it has taken me a lot of remembering to come up with that. Whoever it was please drop me an email and I will get that receipt out to you and please forgive me for the oversight. It was definitely not intentional. Again, just to be clear. Keith had absolutely NOTHING to do with the request for donations at all. It was all done by another sick old man by the name of Gustl Steiner-Zehender. Happy Happy, Gustl Saturday, 06 May, 2006, 16:05:51, you wrote: ...snip... KA The official sewer rat at Infopop and some other folks from there KA lurk around here at the Biofuel list archives like, well, like KA sewer rats, sniffing about and telling the same sort of stuff KA offlist to new members and inviting them to Infopop. List members KA complain about it. Here's one, we have quite a few, not only from KA this one, similar stuff from the Appleseed Queen and so on, whose KA biodiesel book Joe Street didn't seem to like much: Please be aware that the vast majority of the biodiesel world holds Keith Addison and his Journey to Forever site in total contempt. Keith Addison is a sick old man who begs for money on his Journey to Forever site, supposedly to help the poor and needy but he actually uses the money donated to him for his day to day expenses. The Journey to Forever site is Keith's Retirement income, is vastly out of date, and contains inaccurate and phony biodiesel information. If you are more interested in making biodiesel that listening to a Psychotic old man rant about the evils of the world, I suggest you join the Infopop biodiesel website at (I have snipped the url here. I won't advertise for that lot.) Tell them a Kindly Elf sent you. Squire Tilly KE ...snip... -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran
Fritz, Have a strong feeling of dejavu and this time I will save the info in a special place. Pre Iraq, I saw similar figures and also some support on this list. Today it is overwhelming negative numbers in support for the Iraq war and approval ratings for the president. Maybe I should frame this, for future use. Talk about a violent population, 77% in support of military action and killing Iranians. In two years we will have 65% in denial and against the US engagement in Iran. It will be an even bigger mess than Iraq, with attacks all over the world. Hakan At 20:07 07/05/2006, you wrote: just received Fritz Poll: Strong U.S. Support for Bombing Iran An Internet poll sponsored by NewsMax.com reveals that Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of the United States undertaking military action to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program. Nearly 60,000 people have taken part in the poll so far, and more than nine out of 10 say U.S. efforts to contain Iran's weapons program are not working. A large majority of respondents also believe that Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War. NewsMax will provide the results of this poll to major media and share them with radio talk-show hosts across the country. Here are the poll questions and results: 1) Do you believe U.S. efforts to contain Iran's nuclear weapons program are working? Working: 7 percent Not Working: 93 percent 2) Should the United States rely solely on the U.N. to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program? Yes: 11 percent No: 89 percent 3) Do you believe Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War? Yes: 88 percent No: 12 percent 4) Should the U.S. undertake military action against Iran to stop their program? Yes: 77 percent No: 23 percent 5) Who should undertake military action against Iran first? U.S.: 45 percent Israel: 35 percent Neither: 20 percent ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
US has not stopped torture, according to Amnesty http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=BreakingstoryId=1519912 Who belive that they stopped? It casts a shadow over all Americans, who are responsible for their government. At least republicans are clearly to identify with what's going on. This especially elected representatives, who refuse to take a stand and stop their support of this administration. Why is there so little public actions to get rid of the current government? A massive rejection of its methods, would make them resign, but it is no signs of it. No actions are the same as compliancy, Americans of today, must have a very good understanding and sympathy for the Germans in the 1930's. They only let it happen also. Was Vietnam not enough, or should future generations have to feel more guilt of their ancestors behavior. Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture?
Randall, US have already proved that they do not want to give up the veto in UN. This also means that they can veto any change that are suggested for UN. So it is the old story about what comes first. Yes, there are some other countries that apply torture, most of them are countries that US does not want to be compared with and some of them South Americans that US support and where CIA have proved to be training the military. To be fair, we must also mention China, where US have no influence at all. Yes, I am saying the same about those countries, but unfortunately torture is an internal matter and used to keep their own population under control. Are you suggesting that this is the case in US, it becomes even more worrisome than I thought. So what you say is, as long as ALL Americans are not aware of their country's methods, the rest is absolved from taking actions and are kept in line by torture as other countries. I never thought that you had such a risky and dangerous environment in US. It has changed very much the last few years that I did not visit. Hakan At 21:19 03/05/2006, you wrote: Hakan, To answer your question: No. Your questions imply that ALL Americans have proof about systematic and long-term torture, and quite simply I do not believe that you have the evidence to support that assertion. What other countries have been reported to and are listed with Amnesty International as having employed torture?Are you going to issue the same indictment of the citizens of those countries as well? Aren't ALL member nations in the UN responsible for not forcing ALL countries to stop using torture? Using your assertion, aren't the citizens of all those countries responsible as well? Yes, I know it is easy to say that the US has a veto on the Security Council...but why not simply change the system?? Sitting back and just saying that they cannot is the same as the comparison to 1930's and 1940's Nazi Germany. Simply having a vote does not imply responsibilty, much less confer the ability to force the action (or non-action) of a government.This does not excuse torture...but nor does it solve it either. I believe you need to first figure out what makes humans CAPABLE of torture then you can address the REASONS that humans employ torture. --Randall ___ Heisenberg may have slept here If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my xe. --Abraham Lincoln ___ - Original Message - From: Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 1:19 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Are Americans torturers or supporters of torture? US has not stopped torture, according to Amnesty http://wireservice.wired.com/wired/story.asp?section=BreakingstoryId=1519912 Who belive that they stopped? It casts a shadow over all Americans, who are responsible for their government. At least republicans are clearly to identify with what's going on. This especially elected representatives, who refuse to take a stand and stop their support of this administration. Why is there so little public actions to get rid of the current government? A massive rejection of its methods, would make them resign, but it is no signs of it. No actions are the same as compliancy, Americans of today, must have a very good understanding and sympathy for the Germans in the 1930's. They only let it happen also. Was Vietnam not enough, or should future generations have to feel more guilt of their ancestors behavior. Hakan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Electric lynch motors
Zeke, Galapagos: Nothing, if they have not done it the last 8 month. I did not see any solar, not even on the houses. The tour boats are not small, generally they take 100 or more passengers, with spacious dining, entertainment and kitchen areas. I was very surprised by the contradictions between the vocal care for environment and the dirty tourist ships. There are many of them, but the Americans try to keep their mind in rest, by not allowing smoking. LOL Hakan At 01:06 04/05/2006, you wrote: Never heard of biscuit tin motors, but I have heard of lynch motors -- used for all kinds of little electric vehicals. I've also heard a bit about eletric boats and ferries -- they used to have one for president Roosevelt (Teddy) I think, for the official launch (equivalent to his Marine 1 helicopter now I guess). As he said, weight is not an issue, and nowadays, you can easily (technically, if you can afford it) put a kW or so of PV as a shade canopy on the barge and run it around all day, pollution free. I know that the galapagos islands were wanting to convert alot of their little tour boats, because they just tool around all day belching diesel (which also kills alot of the very wildlife the tourists are there to see, in the frequent fuel spills). Not sure how far along they've gotten on this plan. On 5/3/06, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all A nice person wrote to me from the UK and told me about this, among other things - anyone know about 'biscuit tin motors'? You may be interested to know that I own a 1936 canal barge which I have had converted so that the propulsion system is an electric lynch motor. I dare say you already know about lynch motors but just in case you don't they are also known as 'biscuit tin motors' because they are so tiny that they will actually fit inside one. The lynch motor happily pushes along my boat which is 72 feet long and weighs in at over 20 tons Fortunately on a boat , batteries are a positive attribute because they become ballast to keep the hull down in the water. I usually have 1,650 amp hours of them onboard. The weak link is the fact that my budget didn't stretch to the kilowatt of photovoltaics needed to do the propulsion system justice so I don't travel very far at present : ( Hugh, who fitted the lynch motor has a website www.solarboat.co.uk which you may find interesting. Also: http://www.lemcoltd.com/ L.M.C. Manufacturers of Permanent Magnet DC Motors Lynch Motor Company Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Joe, In Israel you will see the same, but with efficient solar panels built together with an insulated storage. It is however an enormous difference in efficiency. The black cisterns have a very low efficiency and you can only collect some warm water at the end of sunny days. The main functionality of cisterns on the roof, is to give distribution pressure. It is also very large differences in the coloring methods, what is looking black to us, can have very different absorption factors. A Swedish company is the market leader in delivering the solar collection elements for solar panels. They deliver them in rolls of double black colored copper sheets. Before mounting they are cut to size and pressurized to form the space for water passage. Efficient solar panel construction was researched around 40 years ago in Almeria, Spain, a joint project between technical universities of Sweden and Spain. The Swedish part was managed by prof. Folke Petterson, KTH, who also used some simulation work with the energy transmission program that we have. Hakan At 00:40 28/04/2006, you wrote: Almost every house and building has a big black cistern on the roof. The are everywhere you look. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Yes, but Mexico it is a bit larger and more people than Israel and in total they do not have the same density, but last time was around 15 years ago and Israel the last time was around 6 years ago, China 5 years and Brazil last time was only 2 years ago. Time goes very fast. Still, I doubt it, considering that Israel is a export producer of thermal solar systems also. Hakan At 21:03 27/04/2006, you wrote: Hakan Falk wrote: Zeke, Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . snip Ever been to Mexico? Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] WVO-Water Separation: coalescer media
Zeke, Solar panels was very common in California 100 years ago. Was replaced by other hot water heaters in a successful marketing campaign from the energy companies. Hakan At 20:21 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yeah -- I think that part of it is that people are used to seeing really ugly solar thermal installations put in during the 80's, and not much has been installed here since then. And then they think that solar thermal is old technology that has been superceded by PV. Not knowing the different between electricity and hot water helps... one guy I talked to actually thought that his solar thermal panels stored sunlight somehow, and didn't actually have a clue that they heated water up. He wanted them taken down because they came with the house and he didn't want solar any more great thinking since natural gas prices keep jumping up here... On 4/27/06, Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Zeke, Solar thermal hot water is the cheapest and most efficient solar use, I do not understand that the use is so low. This except Israel, where you can see solar for hot water on almost every house. . Normal thermal solar panels have 35-40% efficiency. A very good and cost effective way to use solar. Thermal solar for hot water will pay for itself in 3 to 5 years and heating around 5 to 8 years. Compared this to PV that are more around 15 - 20 years. The normally used PV cells have 8-12% efficiency, even if you can get very expensive and less used cells that have up to 35% efficiency. Hakan At 18:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: If you are running a reactor from solar, why not use solar thermal? That will be much less costly than PV running resistance heating, and can easily achieve the temperatures required. On 4/27/06, Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes you are correct Hakan and I have to remember that in other places electricity is generated in much poorer ways than it is here in Canada. Most of our electricity comes from hydroelectric and nuclear with a small fraction from other types of generation. However even with your 70 -85% numbers if everyone began burning vegetable oil or glycerine in crude burners to get energy directly the impact on the atmosphere would be quite significant especially in areas like where I live where electricity is generated by relatively clean techniques. (I am not saying that I like nuclear). Local solar PV and storage systems to me seems to be the best option and I would still use an electric heater. I have obtained a surplus watt hour meter which I plan to install on the main power feed to my reactor so I can measure the total input energy to my process. I want to determine the viability of running it from a PV system. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Making electricity with 35% efficiency and the heat with 90+% efficiency, make a total of 32% efficiency, compared with 70 to 85% efficiency by heating directly with oil. This make the oil 2 - 2.5 times more efficient. Pollution has a direct relation to the efficiency. When they get the very efficient filter techniques at the power generation plants, the total pollution would maybe be equal, but we are not there yet. Hakan At 15:55 27/04/2006, you wrote: Yes but the electrical energy is converted to heat with practically 100% eff regardless of it's source of generation which is what I meant. You are right of course, electrical generation is not without it's environmental impact, even hydro. But what of your emissions from burning?? J Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, Electricity more efficient for heating? A lot of the electricity production is using oil, with around 35% efficiency to make the electricity. Heating with oil have 70 to 85% efficiency in burners. I would not give anything for this manual, the author lacks knowledge and understanding. A pity that it is a women who wrote it, because now I am going to be accused of being a male chauvinist. It does however not effect the fact that it is much more efficient to heat with oil, than with electricity. Hakan At 15:16 27/04/2006, you wrote: Getting it really cold means removing heat. Whether you remove heat or add heat it takes time and energy. Adding heat would be a more efficient process unless you live in the arctic and can let good old mother nature do the work for you. BTW someone recently passed me a manual written by a woman who shall remain nameless that is for sale about making biodiesel. It says that heating oil for dewatering is a very inefficient process. An electrical resistance heater is as close to 100 percent efficient as anything I can imagine. Just be careful about heat density. Too much power confined to too small
Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?
Luis, It is only around a year ago, that we established that biofuels would be competitive with an oil price of $35 to $40 a barrel, especially biodiesel. At the current levels over $70 a barrel, biofuels are cheaper than oil. Everybody expect that it will stay on this level and even go higher. The elements are there, for a very rapid growth in making biofuels and with current competitive advantage it will not go slowly. The question is not fuel dominance, but industry dominance. I hope that we will see a far more diversified energy industry as a result of the situation, now that the startup barrier has been lowered so much. A more diversified industry, with small to mid size producers, will have the opportunity to move very fast and the large traditional oil companies can not. The only thing the large industries can do, is to build barriers with help from politicians and with safety concerns as excuse. In an energy crises this will not be successful, because it assumes that they have more time to move. Hakan At 14:44 27/04/2006, you wrote: I dont know man, but I think they've got a point. sustainable or not, there are many ways to slowly shift towrds other fuels until petro dominance fades away. The world will go on through this process, although this doesn't come overnight. With all due respect to your position, it kinda makes sense. Best regards, Luis. Michael Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: The great thing about the dialog we are having is that it is (conceivably) a permanent record of the times, creating perhaps a smaller task for revisionist historians in the future. The Neo-Conservatives of today will be compared (even more) to the cast of characters in Arthur Miller's The Crucible. Now all we need is for someone to read it in a hundred years (assuming our species is still around). ...gotta go. My alien implant is bugging me again. Mike Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: LOL! US have huge amounts of coal, one third of known world reserves. Now it is only left to get the Americans to buy diesel vehicles 1% of current autos, to levels like Europes 50% of current vehicles. So instead of dependance of foreign oil, US will be dependent of foreign autos, but it is a large improvement of the situation anyway. Diesel engines 30% more efficient with smaller autos 50% more efficient and US will be at the level of Europeans. By the way, where is the freedom cars? On the streets of Europe! After this, US maybe even discover biodiesel. Hakan At 23:10 25/04/2006, you wrote: WE ARE SAVED! WELL EXCEPT FOR THE CARBON THING.. http://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.html That's sarcasm folks... Joe Mike Weaver wrote: Redler, you never like my ideas. You've made me cry. Now how do you feel? *snif* Ok I can't leave well enough alone. A good friend who follows peak oil pretty closely sent me this. I think it's optimistic at best and pretty delusional at worst. How long will it take (and cost) to get all this whiz bang stuff going? There's no doubt in my mind the petro economy is doomed. Now, if we had any sense we'd wean ourselves NOW, while we can, use whatever technology may work to do it and move to the next phase. Even in the best case scenario the price of oil is going to continue to climb and climb. They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not about to run out of oil. The world WILL NEVER run out of oil. There just WON'T BE ENOUGH for everyone to go as we are. I'm sure there will alwasy be a trickle ot two... Weaver Michael Redler wrote: Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists: They concede to: The rising costs of oil exploration The eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuel The fact that for every three barrels used there is only one barrel of newly discovered oil to replenish it. At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniques in exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delay the peak. They also make the sweeping statement that the World is not about to run out of oil. What does about mean and when will they have the foresight to see the value of doing something sooner rather than later? More importantly, who is the World and when are they going to count countries (i.e. Iraq) who are slowly losing control of their oil. What a bunch of crap! Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you. Mike */Mike Weaver ?xml:namespace prefix = mailto //* wrote: http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages
