[biofuel] Re: OT: US Organic certification program
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I said that politicians can be egoistic, ignorant, dishonest and work for corporate interests instead of peoples interest, but I never said that they are not smart. This Organic Certification Program is a good example of if you can't beat them. join them strategy, very often used by politicians/corporations. Yes, never make the mistake of thinking that they are simply stupid -- they are venal, they are evil. I read somewhere recently that the gov't seems to be using Orwell's 1984 as a textbook. This is just another example, brought to you by the Ministry of Love. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Looking for a more powerful website? Try GeoCities for $8.95 per month. Register your domain name (http://your-name.com). More storage! No ads! http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info http://us.click.yahoo.com/auyVXB/KJoEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Windside Turbine
Huh, that's weird. I didn't get the second frame with the menu for pictures, models, specs, etc. until after I clicked on the distributors link. Maybe they just need to hire some of those Finlander hackers to build them a real website. 8-) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], harmonseaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sort of amazing that an outfit that says it's been building these cool machines for the last 20 years can't even provide a picture or any details on their website, eh? --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], greg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yes but try justwww.windside.com - Original Message - From: kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 21stCenturySurvival (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 2:04 PM Subject: [biofuel] Windside Turbine Novel design from Finland Rugged and reliable. Handles ice loads -- and -- is SILENT ! ! ! zero dB http://www.windside.com/frames.htmhttp://www.windside.com/frames.htm Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Is your business paying to much? Affordable insurance and benefits packages for Less. http://us.click.yahoo.com/jCP0DB/E.mEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Kerosene heater on Veg oil?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], coachgeo3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: found the link [snip] Hakan [snip] Thanx for the links guys. Anyone have knowledge of how these things work. As in is their a problem in principle (or practice if anyone has tried it) of running them on veg oil? If you check out the previously posted esbar site in Ken's message they explain fairly clearly how they work. I've got one in my camper, also had one in a previous vanagon, they definitely put out the heat. However, I have my doubts whether they will work with SVO/WVO, and not sure I even want to try it. Somebody on the stoves list is building cooking stoves that burn SVO, but they both pre-heat and pressurize the SVO first. I've got a little MSR camping stove that will burn anything from gasoline to diesel, and works on the same principle (preheated and pressurized) but didn't burn canola -- although I haven't given it a real try, futzing around with it, just a rather quick attempt. Anyone know anymore about the Diesel cook stoves? They are very commonly used on boats. Made by Dickenson, Sigmarine, Olympic, Washington Stove Works, and other. Although all the ones I've seen so far are too large to fit in my camper, certainly, and I'd think too big for the camper Ken posted about. Wish he'd said what the brand was. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Kerosene heater on Veg oil?
Go to www.crest.org to sign on the stoves list. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], craig reece [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Harmon, I just did a search on Yahoo Groups for stoves and stoves and biodiesel and got zip. Could you post the link for the stoves group you mention? Thanks, Craig snip Somebody on the stoves list is building cooking stoves that burn SVO, but they both pre-heat and pressurize the SVO first. snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] US Fed biofuel taxes? Not!
The fact is that there are zero federal taxes on biodiesel or ethanol (or hydrogen) in the US. If indeed there are *state* taxes on biodiesel, as some have said, I think they should tell us exactly what they are, and for which states. If they exiest, how many cents per gallon please? I wouldn't doubt at all that the people in -- MA? -- who were recently reported as being charged with not paying their fuel tax are being conned by an overzealous fascist idiot, as it is certain at this point they he lied to them about having to pay federal penalties. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: please don't fuel my confusion
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hot Dog writes: I am in the uk what is #1 diesel ? Same as paraffin (UK, kerosene US), used as a mix with #2 diesel to improve cold-weather performance. Many people also use it as a mix with biodiesel for the same reason. Not recommended as a diesel fuel by itself. No, no, not quite -- try burning #1 diesel in a kerosene lamp once and you'll quickly learn the difference, especially the Aladdin mantle lamps. We used to buy our Winter lamp oil supply by the 50gal drum, but learned early on to buy a gallon or two from the supplier to try in the lamps first. The expensive Aladdin wicks are quickly ruined by #1 diesel, not to mention the smoke and stink. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: What is the smallest displacement diesel engine used in common automobiles?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Witmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the smallest displacement diesel engine used in common automobiles? From what I can tell, around 2.0 liters total displacement seems to be about as small as they come here in Japan. Thanks, Christopher Witmer Well, not exactly automobile, but easily obtainable are the Kubota small tractor and industrial diesels. The smallest I know of is a 600cc watercooled two cylinder. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: What is the significance of compression ratio in cogeneration context?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Witmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the significance of diesel engine compression ratio in a cogeneration context? I have heard that with cogeneration, the higher the compression ratio the better. Can anyone tell me why? Is it because a higher compression ratio means more heat? And how high is high for readily available engines? I think my source said something to the effect that Cummins has some engines with relatively high compression ratios, beyond 20:1. Also, how easy is it to increase an engine's compression ratio? I seems to me that one could damage one's engine trying, if one was careless. I don't think it makes any difference in cogeneration, per se, the engines still run at the same operating temperature. Perhaps what you are thinking of is that engines running on biomass gasifiers need much higher compression, which is why diesels are used. Many diesels have 25:1 compression, although some newer ones like the VW TDI's have only about 18:1. You can quite easily raise compression ratio by having the cylinder head milled off a bit, although that needs to be done after careful computation of the deck height of the pistons in the cylinder and the actual volume of the compression chamber in the head. For some gasoline engines, high compression pistons are available, although those are probably only going to take it to 11:1 or 12:1. Even for ethanol you want at least 13:1. You can't raise it much more than that for a petrol engine, since the piston crowns and connecting rods aren't strong enough. Bearings also might be a problem. Better to use a diesel and convert it to spark if necessary. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: sawdust toilets - questions
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, While I might be a little off topic, I have a question. I did not do all the science courses that I should have, so this may sound dumb. On another list, they are recommending sawdust toilets, but they are talking about the urine going in the grey water and only the feces going in the sawdust. I know this is not what is recommended by Humanure. [Nor do I follow this practice] Urine is used directly for gardening, especially in container gardening --- if you take a look thru the stuff on container gardening on the journeytoforever.org site you'll find an article about people using untreated urine as their principal fertilizer for container gardening. Also note that there is a branch of yoga that uses the person's own urine for healing, both externally on wounds, etc. and also internally by drinking it. Not that I'm going to try the later, and I see that Dr. Weil says essentially the same thing on www.drweil.com -- he can't see any harm in using it externally, but doesn't see the point of drinking it -- you might want to read his piece on it. At any rate, there isn't any danger in using it on gardens. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Is Sewage Fertilizer Too Toxic? Fossil Fuels?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: biodigestion would be preferred , I would think. I would not want to use the leftover solids for fertilizer, unless the incoming stream could be certified. At least a gasified fuel would result, as well as reduction of solids. They've already gone thru biodigestion. What they are spreading on farmer's fields is the dried end product of biodigestion. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Open Season on Open Space
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], coachgeo3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am an avide offroader and we have seen PUBLIC land closed to the PUBLIC way to much. Yes... their are peope who abuse the land but lets punish that small percentage not the larger percentage of those who do not. All, and I mean *ALL*, motorized offroad use needs to be stopped ASAP. And that includes motorboats. There's just no excuse for polluting and using up precious resources for recreation. The noise factor alone is reason enough. If the gov't won't do it, I'll bet tire spikes in the trails and barbed wire neck high will. I have property in the north woods in a national forest -- the off-roaders laugh at no-tresspass signs. People in WI and MN have been threatened, assualted, and even run over when trying to stop off-roaders from trespassing on their property. Off-roaders are a pack of disgusting subhuman vermin the world could do without. Anybody too lazy to get off their fat ass and walk, ski, paddle, or sail shouldn't be allowed in the outofdoors. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Is Sewage Fertilizer Too Toxic? Fossil Fuels?
Well, the sludge locally is totally dry and crumbly as it comes out of the plant, and they actually pay people to take it and deliver it to them as well. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tis is a common technology. But it needs a lot of energy, because usually the sludge is 95 % of water. Reinhard Henning harmonseaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: So what about gasification of biosolids? I'd think that would essentially concentrate any heavy metals in the ash, which could either be put in a toxic waste dump, or, preferably, have the metals extracted and sold. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- bagani GbR, Reinhard Henning, Rothkreuz 11, D-88138 Weissensberg, Germany Tel: ++49 8389 984129, Fax: 984128, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] internet: www.bagani.de Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Open Season on Open Space
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Witmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: vigilante justice is no justice. The gov't is responsible for dispensing justice, and it is a travesty when it fails to do so. But if people acting outside legal authority take it upon themselves to seek vengeance when the gov't fails to fulfill it's responsibility, the result isn't justice, but simply greater injustice. (And to point that out is not to support or offer any sort of defense for trespassers. Trespassers are violating the landowner's property rights, and that is no small matter. I don't know what the law is where you live, but in both MN and WI, the law says you can use deadly force to resist a tresspass on your land. Of course, the way our gov't is nowadays, I'd want the whole thing on video tape before I would actually blow some off-roader away, but in the past there have been a number of them who have found themselves looking down the barrel of a gun. And one I knocked on his ass -- funny thing was he actually went to the sheriff and tried to charge me with assault. But he was particularly stupid in the first place, tried to tell me he could cross my land anytime. I also have a lot of barbwire fences at odd places on my land, that's my right. And if I want to leave boards laying around with spikes in them, that's my right too. We lost a house and a barn to a jerk who cut the lock off the gate and drove into tall, very dry grass with his truck, set a grass fire with his muffler, then, instead of trying to put it out, took off. He got stuck however, and got caught, but of course he didn't have a pot to piss in, so we didn't get much. We've had an awful lot of experience with off-roaders -- and I know for a fact that 99% of them will absolutely totally ignore No-Tresspassing signs, it's not even debatable, we've watched them do it easily a 1000 times. We hear them drive down the road, stop at the no-tresspass signs, talk it over, then drive right on past, then -- oops, they're in our yard. Very, very, very few turn around at the sign. Same goes for the water crowd -- jet skiers and big powerboats and 90% assholes. I windsurf and I row a lot in a little sliding seat rig, and also sail various very small sailboats. Jetskis and the hotrod boater are a constant menace, trying to see how close they can come to you hoping their bow wave will tip you over. I've even had them do it right in front of the safety patrol, who just totally ignore it. When I had a place on the water it was just a constant PITA -- sit out on your dock enjoying the sunset and some SOB comes by deliberately trying to soak you. I've even seen guys with big powerboats sit and spin around and around in front of a dock trying to wreck the dock with the waves. What's really frightening is they have absolutely no concern at all for swimmers -- I've seen boat after boat roaring along top speed just a few feet away from the end of dock. I think what the bottom line is that most people who are really into motorized recreation are basically assholes who's biggest thrill is seeing how many people they can annoy or how much damage they can cause. You certainly see that with all the people even on the street with big harleys and hot bikes and cars -- sitting at the stop sign revving it up over and over and over, burning rubber taking off, etc. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Open Season on Open Space
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And I'm sorrybut I'm not. If the little tykes can't walk, let the parents pack 'em in. If they can, let them carry their own weight. Yup, kids can walk. Babies can be carried, there's tons of nice equipment for packing kids around. We did it. And later on our kids walked a full 2 miles every morning to get to the school bus. Or skied once snow came. With timber wolves, moose and bear all around too. Not that's a novel thoughtbeing responsible for one's own person at such a young age. It's a hell of a sight better than what most adults can accomplish in their lifetimes. Talk about degenerative diseases. And if the parent's L4-L5 is so shot that they can't carry the little tyke? (Which is me in another couple of years.) Then get the three wheel stroller out, put a harness and reins on the dog and let him or her pull it. Funny how off roaders always use the handicapped excuse for furthering their goals. Exactly. How many times have you seen actually handicapped people riding trail-bikes, 4-wheelers, or snowmobiles anyway? Which brings up another thing -- ever sit around a parking lot and watch what sort of handicapped people have the stickers that let them park in the handicapped space? Their problem is they're too damn fat to walk, and they are that way because they *don't* walk. Even more hilarious is the number of times I've witnessed any of them bundle up a quad or pare and take them out for a joyride on their two or four stroke. Yup. But what we also see now is how many more sportsmen there are hunting the way back places, now that they can ride there. Big fat guys on 4 wheelers all over the place. It's definitely a major impact on wildlife. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Open Season on Open Space
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Witmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Todd, Granted, you have a point that too often justice goes to the highest bidder. But whether vigilante or bought justice, it isn't reallly justice in either case. Sometimes there is no justice to be had in this world, and if I ever find myself in a position where my ox is the one getting gored, I hope I'll have the self-restraint to just commit it to the Lord. (On judgment day, it will be much better to be found among the screwed than among the screwers.) Ho boy, well I guess that's your choice. There won't be a judgement day for me. When I die, I'm going to become a ghost, spooking around the woods, giving people flat tires and terrorizing people who don't respect Mother Earth. At bottom, the problem with the trespassing offroaders is their disrespect for law and other people's property rights. But if our response is also characterized by disrespect for law and other people's property rights, then we're not making the situation better, we're making it worse. Disrespect for law? If someone drives a vehicle onto my land, it belongs to me, legally. And the law also allows me to use just as much physically force, even deadly force, to stop them from trespassing. If I tell someone to get off my land, and they keep coming, I have every legal, and moral, right to shoot them dead. And I see absolutely nothing wrong with that -- there's far, far too many people in this world anyway. Removing the stupider ones is just Darwinism in action. Appal Energy wrote: Sometimes what you call vigilante justice is the only justice that money can't buy. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Open Season on Open Space
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], girl_mark_fire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what I am saying, is that others should not condem a few, that want/need to use their ICEs to blend in with nature and get away from the crowd, Blend in with nature? Isn't that just utterly incredible? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Save on REALTOR Fees http://us.click.yahoo.com/Xw80LD/h1ZEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perfectly safe, if you do it right. Entire populations have used the sanitizing effects of topsoil for this, and grown their crops on it, through many generations, without ill-effects, and still do. Hot-composting makes sure of that, and improves the effectiveness of the product. I think the problem here is it just gets too cold in Winter -- when you put the bucket of kitchen waste out on the heap, it freezes solid before it has a chance to start working. Even here in central WI it does that, in northern MN where we did a lot more composting, it was frozen solid from about Nov. 1 -- mid-May, just like the ground. I suppose if you had a large batch of materials mixed up properly with the correct ratios, it might have a chance, but you can't do that with the daily wastes. And really, my compost piles here are more worm-bins than real compost, I don't think they ever heat up much. Not enough nitrogen for one thing, here in town. And when we had animals up in MN, we always just put manure straight on the garden. I wish the humanure book had been out then, we really had a problem in the Winter. Our outhouse would always freeze, as we got a lot of heavy rain in Fall, and it was heavy clay soil, so the outhouse hole would fill to ground level with water, then freeze solid. So you'd have a very small space left which filled rapidly. Several Winters we ended up having to just use a chamber pot and empty it into a 55gal drum, and although we added leaves and wood ashes in there to try to get it working, it just froze solid too. When it doesn't get above zero F. for weeks at a time, things don't get a chance to start breaking down and creating any heat. Up there you'd find piles of snow in the woods well into June, and the lakes never opened up before mid-May, and the Forestry wouldn't allow road work until June. Somewhere I've seen plans for a solar heated outhouse, and solar heated compost bin, which would probably be the ticket. I tried, as I said, making compost in a plastic barrel in the greenhouse this last Winter, but it just didn't get enough air, I think, too much water, even tho I added dry leaves, and not enough nitrogen. I'll try something different next year. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ztNCyD/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
Thinking back, I recall that for quite awhile we were trying something we'd read about to help keep the goats warm in Winter. The idea was to just keep putting down fresh bedding, not removing the old or the manure. This would compost and the heat would be a great help for the animals, then in Spring you haul it all out. Sounded great to us, we always felt sorry for the animals in Winter, most of our chickens lost their combs and wattles to freezing, the barn cats usually had shortened ears, etc. You'd think that would be the perfect setup, really for good composting -- plenty of manure, plenty of urine to for both moisture and more nitrogen, and the hay for bedding. We were quite disappointed, however, as there was never any noticable composting going on until late Spring. Otherwise it seemed pretty much frozen solid. Never saw any steam rising from it, never felt warm at all, and I spent plenty of time on my knees on it, milking the goats twice a day. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pp91HA/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Keith, Hi Hoagy Thanks for this, nice... Could be quicker, could be hotter too, only 120-130F. Still, that's okay, they're doing good. Makes you think, though, eh? - all that free heat going to waste. Wonder why they don't use it? I don't know. Whadaya suggest. The Mother Earth News used it to warm water in the cooler times of the year if memory serves me. That's not really a good idea though, if you want good compost. Or, rather, you need to decide which is more important, getting some heat from it or getting and thorough and relatively quick compost. Taking heat from the pile can lower temps enough that some of the most important bacteria can't function. In northern climes especially, you're more in need of adding heat to the pile some of the year. Or composting inside, which I tried for the first time last year but it went anerobic. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those interested, this beautiful book is available online at: http://www.weblife.org/humanure/default.html __ramjee. Hello Ramjee Very interesting too how Joseph Jenkins sells hard-copies of his book AND makes a free version available online at the same website. Would that more publishers realized the two are complementary, and that giving it away for nothing doesn't eat into hard-copy sales as alleged. Quite the opposite. More humanure resources here, by the way: http://journeytoforever.org/compost_humanure.html regards Keith There was a quite interesting workshop on composting toilets at the MREA energy fair. They were selling the Humanure book, essentially took the 5 gallon bucket and compost with straw approach, building a specific compost pile for the humanure out with a pallet frame and base, plus hardware cloth. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
I should mention too that the guy at MREA, whose been composting humanure for decades, said turning is a bad idea, it loses heat, and, for humanure you want as much heat as possible. He also said let it go a year, make the piles big (pallet size), and just build another pile when the first if full, rather than trying to hurry it along. Obviously that doesn't work for apartment dwellers. 8-) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Harmon I should mention too that the guy at MREA, whose been composting humanure for decades, said turning is a bad idea, it loses heat, and, for humanure you want as much heat as possible. He also said let it go a year, make the piles big (pallet size), and just build another pile when the first if full, rather than trying to hurry it along. Obviously that doesn't work for apartment dwellers. 8-) Turning doesn't lose heat, you only turn it once it's cooled anyway. It may or may not be necessary - read Will Brinton's study that I posted previously: Sustainability of Modern Composting: Intensification Versus Costs Quality: http://www.woodsend.org/sustain.pdf A lot of people turn it quite often -- thus the rotating barrel compost makers you see. He was saying that you'll lose the optimum heat if you do that. As for time length, he was talking about the whole sequence. Start the pile with some straw or leaves or hay on a pallet to allow air under it, add your daily bucket of crap, cover that with straw, it will take at least six months to fill the heap (pallets for sides, right?), depending upon the size of your family, maybe even a year. This is just a pile for dealing with humanure, not your main garden compost pile, as a lot of people aren't going to want to put it on the veggie crops. The Gromor guys seemed to be doing frequent turning and watering to keep the heat down, but that's not at all necessary, IMO, and Brinton's, and it may be counter-productive. Which is not to say it won't work anyway. I don't think humanure needs any more heat than any other kind of composting. http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/howardAT/ATapp3.html An Agricultural Testament - Albert Howard - Appendix C The Manufacture of Humus from the Wastes of the Town and the Village Van Vuren's pioneering work in South Africa confirms this, along with Wylie's in England, and Gotaas's work all over the place (not online yet). My own work in England also confirmed it. It's just thermophilic composting like any other. C:N ratio, moisture content, aeration apply the same as with any other materials. It'll go well above 65 deg C and stay there awhile, finished in a few weeks, cure it a few more, and that's it. That's not hurrying it along, that's just how it works. No need to leave it for a year, it won't accomplish anything, and unless you store it well it will lose quality in that time. If the actual composting process is taking that long, then it's not properly thermophilic, and not ideal for humanure. Poore's and Moule's experiments with topsoil sanitation were very interesting, and indeed many millions (billions?) of people have done it that way for a long, long time, but I'd want proper hot composting first - not just for sanitation, also the results are better. Hot composting is quick. Yes, if you have a lot, but for individuals or small families it's just not going to work that way, the pile won't be big enough. I know, I've tried it in WI, it froze solid in the winter. I think his point was pretty good advice -- you aren't going to get enough compost to really matter from your own feces, and it isn't really worth the risk of continuing parasite, viral, or bacterial infection to use the little bit you get on veggies, especially root crops. It's primarily a good way to stop wasting all the water you flush everytime you go. And it's great for the flowers. On a large scale, that's different, although with municipal sludge you've got serious problems with heavy metals, so I sure wouldn't put that on my land. Best use for that is gasification. Regards Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: biofuel at the pumps
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is easy for some though (making biodiesel by you and others here) is not as transparent to others. I think you're selling people short -- I'd bet that the majority of farmers would have no real trouble figuring out how to make biodiesel, especially with the current state of published info; anymore than they would have making ethanol. Heck for that matter, I'd be willing to bet that the majority of ten year old kids could do so as well. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
