Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
Hello Keith. The site is in Norwegian and English. Anti-oxidants are used as a reinsurance, since the temperatures of the car fuel tanks can rise to high levels. Anti-oxidants. Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 1:54 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Hello Jan Hello Keith ! Of course there is a possibility that unsaturated compounds interact in the lubricating oil, but if the engine«s combustion is proper, you do not have to expect big problems. But, there are other ways for the fuel to get in contact with the engine oil: It the engine is equipped with a row pump, with one pump element per injector, there is a possibility (due to construction error) that some of the fuel slips by the pump piston entering the engine oil. Some engine manufacturers refuse to acknowledge biodiesel, because once in the oil, it will not vaporise the way ordinary diesel engine fuel does. But the to be on the safe side, cut the oil change intervals by half, which is recommended by many engine manufacturers. Maybe you even can get Castrol to analyse samples of your oil and look for signs of polymerisation. You can safely assume that the EN 14214 is technically founded, although it has its shortcomings. I'm sure it's technically founded, but I wouldn't assume that it was not also subjected to political pressures. For info on me with a high iodine number, I advice you to enter: www.scanbio.org for further information about the products of ESTRA AS. Fish-oil biodiesel... but I can't read Swedish, apologies. Do you quote any research studies there on polymerisation that might support your statement that there is no practical difference for the consumer between biodiesel made with drying oils (high iodine numbers) and biodiesel made with oils with an iodine number around or under 120? Oils with an iodine number of around or under 120 are classified as semi-drying oils, and both soy and sunflower fall into this category, with rapeseed oil (canola) at the lower end of the range. Polymerise they do, if not quite as fast as linseed oil will (why it's used in paint), as well as fish oils - see, eg: Anti-rust Paint from Fish-Scraps http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/FishPaintJTF.pdf This is what Ken Provost said here recently about linseed oil biodiesel: Being a drying oil, it will crosslink eventually in the presence of oxygen, which will cause it to thicken. I have used linseed biodiesel in my car, but only as a minor constituent (plenty of soy esters, olive esters, etc. in addition to the linseed) and only when I was prepared to empty my tank quickly (eg, a long trip where I'd have to refill with petrodiesel halfway anyway). Fish oils can have a higher iodine # than linseed oil. How do you prevent fish-oil biodiesel from drying? Making biodiesel with it doesn't affect the degree of unsaturation. Do you hydrogenate the oil? That would help, but what does it do for the melting point? The semi-drying oils will also dry, but not as quickly. Oxidation and thermal stability are one of the concerns about biodiesel of the Fuel Injection Equipment (FIE) Manufacturers (Delphi, Stanadyne, Denso, Bosch). In their field trials with biodiesel they found increased dilution and polymerisation of engine sump oil. See: FIEM report http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_FIEM.html Results from fleet tests in in Europe (Bosch) have shown that after 60,000 km even DIN compliant fuel can damage the fuel injection system through polymerisation. I know of one such case of injector pump damage through polymerised fuel after only 40,000 km on B100. I think that if the EU's EN 14214 standard was entirely tchnically founded it might have excluded rapeseed oil; instead it has an IV cut-off of 120 and stipulates quite strict Oxidation stability levels, the only biodiesel standard specification to do so (though Australia has now followed suit). That looks like a compromise that allows for rapeseed oil as a feedstock and tries to limit the damage. There seems to have been a lot of trade in biodiesel anti-oxidants in Europe since EN 14214 was announced. Some American companies are also starting to offer biodiesel anti-oxidants - what do they know about soy biodiesel that we don't know (but are trying to find out)? Best wishes Keith Best wishes Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Hello Jan Hello Stephan. The reason for Elsbett«s people (and several others) for rejecting soy bean oil is its
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
Hello Keith. The site is in Norwegian and English. That's www.scanbio.org? But not the subsidiary ESTRA AS site you referred to, and I didn't see anything on methyl esters made with high IV oils, or at least not in English. Do you have a direct url please? Anti-oxidants are used as a reinsurance, since the temperatures of the car fuel tanks can rise to high levels. Anti-oxidants. Anti-oxidants. That's it? As a reinsurance? Sorry, Jan, this isn't very clear to me, and it seems rather insubstantial. You said that for the consumer there is no practical difference between biodiesel made from high IV oils (drying oils) and biodiesel made from oils with an iodine number around or under 120 (semi-drying oils). What are you saying now, that drying oils don't dry? But you add anti-oxidants anyway just to be sure because the fuel tanks get hot? I'm sorry, that's not very convincing. Can you be any more convincing than that? Do you have any research to support the idea that fish oil biodiesel (IV up to 185 or more), for instance, won't polymerise in the engine (which gets a lot hotter than the fuel tank)? I understand that there's an upper limit to the extent adding an anti-oxidant can prevent polymerisation - not a magic bullet. Do you have any involvement with ESTRA AS, or with the production or marketing of fish oil biodiesel? Regarding this, by the way, in your previous message: But the to be on the safe side, cut the oil change intervals by half, which is recommended by many engine manufacturers. Maybe you even can get Castrol to analyse samples of your oil and look for signs of polymerisation. There's been quite a lot of previous discussion here on greatly extending the intervals between oil changes while decreasing engine wear, mainly by the use of bypass filters and oil tests, even to the extent of never changing the oil, just topping it up occasionally. I think most of us would see halving the interval as a poor trade-off against using high-IV biodiesel. Best wishes Keith Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 1:54 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Hello Jan Hello Keith ! Of course there is a possibility that unsaturated compounds interact in the lubricating oil, but if the engine«s combustion is proper, you do not have to expect big problems. But, there are other ways for the fuel to get in contact with the engine oil: It the engine is equipped with a row pump, with one pump element per injector, there is a possibility (due to construction error) that some of the fuel slips by the pump piston entering the engine oil. Some engine manufacturers refuse to acknowledge biodiesel, because once in the oil, it will not vaporise the way ordinary diesel engine fuel does. But the to be on the safe side, cut the oil change intervals by half, which is recommended by many engine manufacturers. Maybe you even can get Castrol to analyse samples of your oil and look for signs of polymerisation. You can safely assume that the EN 14214 is technically founded, although it has its shortcomings. I'm sure it's technically founded, but I wouldn't assume that it was not also subjected to political pressures. For info on me with a high iodine number, I advice you to enter: www.scanbio.org for further information about the products of ESTRA AS. Fish-oil biodiesel... but I can't read Swedish, apologies. Do you quote any research studies there on polymerisation that might support your statement that there is no practical difference for the consumer between biodiesel made with drying oils (high iodine numbers) and biodiesel made with oils with an iodine number around or under 120? Oils with an iodine number of around or under 120 are classified as semi-drying oils, and both soy and sunflower fall into this category, with rapeseed oil (canola) at the lower end of the range. Polymerise they do, if not quite as fast as linseed oil will (why it's used in paint), as well as fish oils - see, eg: Anti-rust Paint from Fish-Scraps http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/FishPaintJTF.pdf This is what Ken Provost said here recently about linseed oil biodiesel: Being a drying oil, it will crosslink eventually in the presence of oxygen, which will cause it to thicken. I have used linseed biodiesel in my car, but only as a minor constituent (plenty of soy esters, olive esters, etc. in addition to the linseed) and only when I was prepared to empty my tank quickly (eg, a long trip where I'd have to refill with petrodiesel halfway anyway). Fish oils can have a higher iodine # than linseed oil. How do you prevent fish-oil biodiesel from drying? Making biodiesel with it doesn't affect the degree of unsaturation. Do you hydrogenate the oil
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
http://www.biofuelsystems.com/products.htm Biodiesel equipment, supplies additives Write to Paul O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED] and tell him I said so. I haven't tried their anti-oxidant but we use their Wintron X30 and they're good people. He's in the UK and so are they, but they're happy to export. Thats handy, he is just 20 miles down the road from me! Chris Bennett.. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
on 3/7/05 1:41 PM, Chris Bennett at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there any way of counteracting the drawbacks associated with these (high IV) types of oils? I ask because I am currently producing biodiesel from a supply which consists of about 50% semi hydrogenated pourable vegetable oil (The container does not state which variety of oil it contains) and 50% soy bean oil. This thread is concerning me obviously with regards to the long term effects the fuel may be having on my engine. Polyunsaturated oils or their esters won't BURN any differently than completely saturated ones (well, minor difference in energy yield). They only become problematic if they sit around in your storage facility or fuel tank. The key to using them with confidence is to use them fast. If you can't guarantee that, you should avoid them -- i.e., that tank over there holds 100,000 gallons, and we've kept it full since 2007...! As long as you're doing this for yourself and you let your tank go nearly empty every so often, you're fine. Will any of the fuel system cleaning treatments available at most vehicle accessory shops have any effect on the buildups generated during combustion? The buildups only happen during sitting around, and they're more likely to clog your filter or jets than deposit in your cylinders. Just use it up fast -K ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
Hello Keith ! Of course there is a possibility that unsaturated compounds interact in the lubricating oil, but if the engine«s combustion is proper, you do not have to expect big problems. But, there are other ways for the fuel to get in contact with the engine oil: It the engine is equipped with a row pump, with one pump element per injector, there is a possibility (due to construction error) that some of the fuel slips by the pump piston entering the engine oil. Some engine manufacturers refuse to acknowledge biodiesel, because once in the oil, it will not vaporise the way ordinary diesel engine fuel does. But the to be on the safe side, cut the oil change intervals by half, which is recommended by many engine manufacturers. Maybe you even can get Castrol to analyse samples of your oil and look for signs of polymerisation. You can safely assume that the EN 14214 is technically founded, although it has its shortcomings. I'm sure it's technically founded, but I wouldn't assume that it was not also subjected to political pressures. For info on me with a high iodine number, I advice you to enter: www.scanbio.org for further information about the products of ESTRA AS. Fish-oil biodiesel... but I can't read Swedish, apologies. Do you quote any research studies there on polymerisation that might support your statement that there is no practical difference for the consumer between biodiesel made with drying oils (high iodine numbers) and biodiesel made with oils with an iodine number around or under 120? Oils with an iodine number of around or under 120 are classified as semi-drying oils, and both soy and sunflower fall into this category, with rapeseed oil (canola) at the lower end of the range. Polymerise they do, if not quite as fast as linseed oil will (why it's used in paint), as well as fish oils - see, eg: Anti-rust Paint from Fish-Scraps http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/FishPaintJTF.pdf This is what Ken Provost said here recently about linseed oil biodiesel: Being a drying oil, it will crosslink eventually in the presence of oxygen, which will cause it to thicken. I have used linseed biodiesel in my car, but only as a minor constituent (plenty of soy esters, olive esters, etc. in addition to the linseed) and only when I was prepared to empty my tank quickly (eg, a long trip where I'd have to refill with petrodiesel halfway anyway). Fish oils can have a higher iodine # than linseed oil. How do you prevent fish-oil biodiesel from drying? Making biodiesel with it doesn't affect the degree of unsaturation. Do you hydrogenate the oil? That would help, but what does it do for the melting point? The semi-drying oils will also dry, but not as quickly. Oxidation and thermal stability are one of the concerns about biodiesel of the Fuel Injection Equipment (FIE) Manufacturers (Delphi, Stanadyne, Denso, Bosch). In their field trials with biodiesel they found increased dilution and polymerisation of engine sump oil. See: FIEM report http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_FIEM.html Results from fleet tests in in Europe (Bosch) have shown that after 60,000 km even DIN compliant fuel can damage the fuel injection system through polymerisation. I know of one such case of injector pump damage through polymerised fuel after only 40,000 km on B100. I think that if the EU's EN 14214 standard was entirely tchnically founded it might have excluded rapeseed oil; instead it has an IV cut-off of 120 and stipulates quite strict Oxidation stability levels, the only biodiesel standard specification to do so (though Australia has now followed suit). That looks like a compromise that allows for rapeseed oil as a feedstock and tries to limit the damage. There seems to have been a lot of trade in biodiesel anti-oxidants in Europe since EN 14214 was announced. Some American companies are also starting to offer biodiesel anti-oxidants - what do they know about soy biodiesel that we don't know (but are trying to find out)? Best wishes Keith Best wishes Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Hello Jan Hello Stephan. The reason for Elsbett«s people (and several others) for rejecting soy bean oil is its high iodine number. As the case with fish oil, corn oil and several kinds of sunflower oil. A high iodine number is indicating that the oil may be chemically unstable due to its unsaturation level and therefore unsuitable as engine fuel both as SVO and BD. In other words, it polymerises - to quote Phillip Calais: Drying results from the double bonds (and sometimes triple bonds) in the unsaturated oil molecules being broken by atmospheric oxygen and being converted to peroxides. Cross-linking at this site can
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
on 3/7/05 1:41 PM, Chris Bennett at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there any way of counteracting the drawbacks associated with these (high IV) types of oils? I ask because I am currently producing biodiesel from a supply which consists of about 50% semi hydrogenated pourable vegetable oil (The container does not state which variety of oil it contains) and 50% soy bean oil. This thread is concerning me obviously with regards to the long term effects the fuel may be having on my engine. Polyunsaturated oils or their esters won't BURN any differently than completely saturated ones (well, minor difference in energy yield). They only become problematic if they sit around in your storage facility or fuel tank. The key to using them with confidence is to use them fast. If you can't guarantee that, you should avoid them -- i.e., that tank over there holds 100,000 gallons, and we've kept it full since 2007...! As long as you're doing this for yourself and you let your tank go nearly empty every so often, you're fine. Will any of the fuel system cleaning treatments available at most vehicle accessory shops have any effect on the buildups generated during combustion? The buildups only happen during sitting around, and they're more likely to clog your filter or jets than deposit in your cylinders. Just use it up fast -K On the other hand, it doesn't take very long for it to oxidise after brewing, especially if it's been bubble-washed. In one test some bubble-washed homebrew had oxidised well beyond the EU limit after only a week, and well beyond the abilities of anti-oxidants to stop it hardening. Use it fast, yes, and/or use an anti-oxidant. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
On the other hand, it doesn't take very long for it to oxidise after brewing, especially if it's been bubble-washed. In one test some bubble-washed homebrew had oxidised well beyond the EU limit after only a week, and well beyond the abilities of anti-oxidants to stop it hardening. Use it fast, yes, and/or use an anti-oxidant. Best wishes Keith What sort of antioxidants are available? ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
Know of any good anti-oxidants that are readily available? The reason I ask, is that it might not be a bad idea to use some with mystery oil. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 17:59 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] On the other hand, it doesn't take very long for it to oxidise after brewing, especially if it's been bubble-washed. In one test some bubble-washed homebrew had oxidised well beyond the EU limit after only a week, and well beyond the abilities of anti-oxidants to stop it hardening. Use it fast, yes, and/or use an anti-oxidant. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
high Iodine biodiesel with antioxidants. Maybe BHT or BHA. Greg Harbican wrote: Know of any good anti-oxidants that are readily available? The reason I ask, is that it might not be a bad idea to use some with mystery oil. Greg H. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 17:59 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] On the other hand, it doesn't take very long for it to oxidise after brewing, especially if it's been bubble-washed. In one test some bubble-washed homebrew had oxidised well beyond the EU limit after only a week, and well beyond the abilities of anti-oxidants to stop it hardening. Use it fast, yes, and/or use an anti-oxidant. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
Know of any good anti-oxidants that are readily available? The reason I ask, is that it might not be a bad idea to use some with mystery oil. BHA (Butylated hydroxyanisole), BHT (Butylated hydroxytoluene), and TBHQ (Tertiary Butyl Hydroquinone) are all food grade antioxidants that are readily available. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
Know of any good anti-oxidants that are readily available? The reason I ask, is that it might not be a bad idea to use some with mystery oil. Greg H. I suggested this to Chris: Try Biofuel Systems http://www.biofuelsystems.com/products.htm Biodiesel equipment, supplies additives Write to Paul O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED] and tell him I said so. I haven't tried their anti-oxidant but we use their Wintron X30 and they're good people. He's in the UK and so are they, but they're happy to export. In the US, I received this awhile back, with an offer to send me a sample, but when they realised I'm in Japan I heard no more, and no sample, so I can't say anything about it. LANXESS Corporation was formerly the Chemicals Division of Bayer. We are producers of antioxidant's and have developed a Biodiesel Stabilizer that prevents the formation of heavies when Biodiesel is stored. We could offer you 5 gallons free of charge. Our material is non toxic and non regulated. Please let me know where we could send the material. Thank you Best Regards, Dan Hawkinson Mid West Region Manager Basic Fine Chemicals LANXESS Corporation [EMAIL PROTECTED] 219-374-8033 Cell phone 219-781-8033 fax 219-374-8044 6315 W 135th Avenue Cedar Lake, IN 46303 http://www.us.lanxess.com If you write to him, please tell him I said so also! I'm not after freebies, I'd like to add it to our Biofuels supplies page, but not if he doesn't reply. Best wishes Keith - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 17:59 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] On the other hand, it doesn't take very long for it to oxidise after brewing, especially if it's been bubble-washed. In one test some bubble-washed homebrew had oxidised well beyond the EU limit after only a week, and well beyond the abilities of anti-oxidants to stop it hardening. Use it fast, yes, and/or use an anti-oxidant. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
On the other hand, it doesn't take very long for it to oxidise after brewing, especially if it's been bubble-washed. In one test some bubble-washed homebrew had oxidised well beyond the EU limit after only a week, and well beyond the abilities of anti-oxidants to stop it hardening. Use it fast, yes, and/or use an anti-oxidant. Best wishes Keith What sort of antioxidants are available? Try Biofuel Systems http://www.biofuelsystems.com/products.htm Biodiesel equipment, supplies additives Write to Paul O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED] and tell him I said so. I haven't tried their anti-oxidant but we use their Wintron X30 and they're good people. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
Hi Everyone! I am a recent addition to the biodiesel world, due to a malfunction in my brain (age related no doubt) that caused me to go and buy a 190D.(I Love it just as I knew I would) . After I decided that buying the conversion kit from Elsbett wasn't necessarily the best option (due to local WVO quality concerns)by the way, if you come to Hawaii, where I live, and decide to eat in a restaurant, make sure you have healthinsurance, the glop they are using here to fry stuff in .. Seriously, though, the WVO I am getting here is is a mix of mostly Soybean oil used 100 times over and other unidentified saturated and unsaturated things. So I deciided to make BD. Now, Everything is running, I've done small batches, large batches, learned a lot, I am using itand now I just read that an Elsbett engineer said to stay away from Soybean oil, regardless if used straight or as feedstock for BD. Now, in my (brief) dealings with the Elsbett company I had the distinctive feeling that they have a little bit of an anti- BD leaning (maybe I got that because German is my native language) But in studying the resources further, and considering the high IV of soybean oil more questions as to its suitability seem to emerge Here are some questions: As far as suitability as a long term source for B100, how serious are the concerns in using BD made from this sort of an oil? What criteria in evaluating the finished product (beyond Mike Perry's criteria of pH and aspect) should serve as a go no go test? does a two step process improve the situation with the high number of double bonds (which leads to the high IV value, as I understand) Thanks for your consideration, Aloha ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
Hello Stephan. The reason for Elsbett«s people (and several others) for rejecting soy bean oil is its high iodine number. As the case with fish oil, corn oil and several kinds of sunflower oil. A high iodine number is indicating that the oil may be chemically unstable due to its unsaturation level and therefore unsuitable as engine fuel both as SVO and BD. There are some companies producing me from oil with a high iodine number, and there is no practical difference between those products and the BD:s with a iodine number around or under 120 for the consumer.And may I add that the American B100 standard allows soy bean oil as raw material. Best regards Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:19 AM Subject: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Hi Everyone! I am a recent addition to the biodiesel world, due to a malfunction in my brain (age related no doubt) that caused me to go and buy a 190D.(I Love it just as I knew I would) . After I decided that buying the conversion kit from Elsbett wasn't necessarily the best option (due to local WVO quality concerns)by the way, if you come to Hawaii, where I live, and decide to eat in a restaurant, make sure you have healthinsurance, the glop they are using here to fry stuff in .. Seriously, though, the WVO I am getting here is is a mix of mostly Soybean oil used 100 times over and other unidentified saturated and unsaturated things. So I deciided to make BD. Now, Everything is running, I've done small batches, large batches, learned a lot, I am using itand now I just read that an Elsbett engineer said to stay away from Soybean oil, regardless if used straight or as feedstock for BD. Now, in my (brief) dealings with the Elsbett company I had the distinctive feeling that they have a little bit of an anti- BD leaning (maybe I got that because German is my native language) But in studying the resources further, and considering the high IV of soybean oil more questions as to its suitability seem to emerge Here are some questions: As far as suitability as a long term source for B100, how serious are the concerns in using BD made from this sort of an oil? What criteria in evaluating the finished product (beyond Mike Perry's criteria of pH and aspect) should serve as a go no go test? does a two step process improve the situation with the high number of double bonds (which leads to the high IV value, as I understand) Thanks for your consideration, Aloha ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
Hello Stephan. The reason for Elsbett«s people (and several others) for rejecting soy bean oil is its high iodine number. As the case with fish oil, corn oil and several kinds of sunflower oil. A high iodine number is indicating that the oil may be chemically unstable due to its unsaturation level and therefore unsuitable as engine fuel both as SVO and BD. In other words, it polymerises - to quote Phillip Calais: Drying results from the double bonds (and sometimes triple bonds) in the unsaturated oil molecules being broken by atmospheric oxygen and being converted to peroxides. Cross-linking at this site can then occur and the oil irreversibly polymerises into a plastic-like solid. -- From Waste Vegetable Oil as a Diesel Replacement Fuel by Phillip Calais, Environmental Science, Murdoch University, Perth, Australia, and A.R. (Tony) Clark, Western Australian Renewable Fuels Association Inc. http://www.shortcircuit.com.au/warfa/paper/paper.htm See: Iodine Values http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine But that's not quite what Elsbett's Alexander Noack is quoted as saying at the East Coast Region-United States Elsbett Workshop: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. So it would seem that Elsbett's reservations are not so much with polymerisation per se because of the high iodine number as with fuel-lubricating oil interactions. Can you shed any light on this? There are some companies producing me from oil with a high iodine number, and there is no practical difference between those products and the BD:s with a iodine number around or under 120 for the consumer. Can you quote any research that supports the conclusion that there is no practical difference? I've heard of drying problems with sunflower oil biodiesel, and even with rapeseed oil biodiesel (I don't have the reports, I was told they're in German) and I would not want to use linseed oil or tung oil. And may I add that the American B100 standard allows soy bean oil as raw material. Of course they do - how much do you think the soy councils and Big Soy had to do with that? They were involved at every level. Whatever the science may say, do you think it would have been possible for them to develop standards that excluded soy? Similarly, it's often said that the EU standard's stipulating a maximum iodine # of 120 (115 in France and Germany, while the US standard doesn't stipulate anything) is politically based, intended to exclude soy and protect European rapeseed oil production, but is that really all there is to it? If you really wanted to exclude drying problems you'd probably have to exclude rapeseed oil as well and stop at castor oil (85), but no doubt that would be as politically impossible in Europe as excluding soy would be in the US. In both, though less so in Europe perhaps, biodiesel and biofuels are still seen more as agricultural commodities issues than as energy issues. There is a whole side to this that is not to be trusted. In the US, it might not be a clever thing to do career-wise for a researcher to start investigating polymerising problems with soy biodiesel. Quality checks of commercial biodiesel seem to be far from watertight, with one lab attesting ASTM quality and another - after the fuel started causing problems - finding it was not ASTM quality. One commercial produceare repeatedly produced off-spec fuel that caused problems with users' cars, but the NBB didn't seem to be aware of it and proudly presented that producer's plant for delegates to the NBB's annual convention to tour. People at the convention who raised the sub-spec fuel issue were told not to rock the boat. Like Stephan, I too would like some reliable information on this issue. I'm not convinced that it's not a problem. We have discussed this here before, Alexander's statement, polymerisation, and oxidation - see: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34679/ and http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/34769/1 (Elsbett, by the way, is not anti-biodiesel.) Best wishes Keith Best regards Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: stephan torak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:19 AM Subject: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
Hello Keith ! Of course there is a possibility that unsaturated compounds interact in the lubricating oil, but if the engine«s combustion is proper, you do not have to expect big problems. But, there are other ways for the fuel to get in contact with the engine oil: It the engine is equipped with a row pump, with one pump element per injector, there is a possibility (due to construction error) that some of the fuel slips by the pump piston entering the engine oil. Some engine manufacturers refuse to acknowledge biodiesel, because once in the oil, it will not vaporise the way ordinary diesel engine fuel does. But the to be on the safe side, cut the oil change intervals by half, which is recommended by many engine manufacturers. Maybe you even can get Castrol to analyse samples of your oil and look for signs of polymerisation. You can safely assume that the EN 14214 is technically founded, although it has its shortcomings. For info on me with a high iodine number, I advice you to enter: www.scanbio.org for further information about the products of ESTRA AS. Best wishes Jan Warnqvist AGERATEC AB [EMAIL PROTECTED] + 46 554 201 89 +46 70 499 38 45 - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?] Hello Jan Hello Stephan. The reason for Elsbett«s people (and several others) for rejecting soy bean oil is its high iodine number. As the case with fish oil, corn oil and several kinds of sunflower oil. A high iodine number is indicating that the oil may be chemically unstable due to its unsaturation level and therefore unsuitable as engine fuel both as SVO and BD. In other words, it polymerises - to quote Phillip Calais: Drying results from the double bonds (and sometimes triple bonds) in the unsaturated oil molecules being broken by atmospheric oxygen and being converted to peroxides. Cross-linking at this site can then occur and the oil irreversibly polymerises into a plastic-like solid. -- From Waste Vegetable Oil as a Diesel Replacement Fuel by Phillip Calais, Environmental Science, Murdoch University, Perth, Australia, and A.R. (Tony) Clark, Western Australian Renewable Fuels Association Inc. http://www.shortcircuit.com.au/warfa/paper/paper.htm See: Iodine Values http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html#iodine But that's not quite what Elsbett's Alexander Noack is quoted as saying at the East Coast Region-United States Elsbett Workshop: Soybean oil is bad. Whether it is straight vegetable oil or soybean based biodiesel. It is a no-go in diesel engines. Why? In diesel engines you have slight mixing between fuel and lubricating oil. There is a fuel property in soybean oil that makes it reactive when in contact with engine lubricating oil. It supposedly has a polymerizing action with the engine oil, which is detrimental to the life of your lubricating system. What they do in Europe is use a vegetable-based lubricating oil for the engine to prevent any problems with fuel-lubricating oil intimacy. What else? They do not use soybean oil; They use rape seed also known as canola. So it would seem that Elsbett's reservations are not so much with polymerisation per se because of the high iodine number as with fuel-lubricating oil interactions. Can you shed any light on this? There are some companies producing me from oil with a high iodine number, and there is no practical difference between those products and the BD:s with a iodine number around or under 120 for the consumer. Can you quote any research that supports the conclusion that there is no practical difference? I've heard of drying problems with sunflower oil biodiesel, and even with rapeseed oil biodiesel (I don't have the reports, I was told they're in German) and I would not want to use linseed oil or tung oil. And may I add that the American B100 standard allows soy bean oil as raw material. Of course they do - how much do you think the soy councils and Big Soy had to do with that? They were involved at every level. Whatever the science may say, do you think it would have been possible for them to develop standards that excluded soy? Similarly, it's often said that the EU standard's stipulating a maximum iodine # of 120 (115 in France and Germany, while the US standard doesn't stipulate anything) is politically based, intended to exclude soy and protect European rapeseed oil production, but is that really all there is to it? If you really wanted to exclude drying problems you'd probably have to exclude rapeseed oil as well and stop at castor oil (85), but no doubt that would be as politically impossible in Europe as excluding soy would be in the US. In both, though less so in Europe perhaps, biodiesel and biofuels are still seen more as agricultural commodities issues than as energy issues. There is a whole
Re: [Biofuel] (Biofuel)[Fwd: Re: soybeanoil a bad choice for BD making?]
(high IV) types of oils? I ask because I am currently producing biodiesel from a supply which consists of about 50% semi hydrogenated pourable vegetable oil (The container does not state which variety of oil it contains) and 50% soy bean oil. This thread is concerning me obviously with regards to the long term effects the fuel may be having on my engine. Will any of the fuel system cleaning treatments available at most vehicle accessory shops have any effect on the buildups generated during combustion? The only other supply of oil I can get hold of is solid palm oil which runs well as long as it is mixed 50% with regular mineral diesel fuel, reducing te environmental and cost insentives accordingly. Will adding a fuel system or injector cleaning product be sufficient (along with more frequent oil changes) prevent any long term problems, and allow me to continue using my current feedstock? Regards Chris Bennett.. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
