Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry
Thomas Kelly wrote: [snip] He was clearly advocating 2%, 5% blends. Why? Is it simply because the auto manufacturers will void warrantees at higher blends? If so, why not just say so. Not the auto manufacturers. Bosch, the largest manufacturer of diesel injection equipment. Bosch is for some reason very biodiesel _un_friendly. Unless things have changed with them while I wasn't looking. AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry
the auto manufacturers dont really care who powers their stuff as long as it gives them the PR boost so they can sell more. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Alan Petrillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry Thomas Kelly wrote: [snip] He was clearly advocating 2%, 5% blends. Why? Is it simply because the auto manufacturers will void warrantees at higher blends? If so, why not just say so. Not the auto manufacturers. Bosch, the largest manufacturer of diesel injection equipment. Bosch is for some reason very biodiesel _un_friendly. Unless things have changed with them while I wasn't looking. AP ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry
I think you said it Tom; The money. With all those years in the petroleum industry could he still be benefiting from that industry somehow? Possible? Running 5 or 10% BD means still selling 90 to 95% of the petroleum.. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Snip Somehow I know I should be following the money. It must involve dollars and cents. Any ideas? Thanks , I've been mulling this over for weeks. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry
Joe, Like my father-in-law often laments: It's all about money. Todd's post explains subidies for blending BD in with petro. It also mentions a premium charge: . allows the blender to net the entire subsidy plus charge a premium of several cents per gallon for the blended fuel. If that premium is $0.05 per gallon, this amounts to $0.50 on top of the subsidy dollar, or fifty cents if WVO is the parent stock. This would seem to make lower % blends more profitable (maybe I have it wrong) From what Todd said in his post I can understand the reasons (mostly economic reasons, but also, even if not intentionally, environmental reasons) for commercially produced BD to be initially available at lower blends. My problem with the biofuel presentation was why the misinformation about blends over 10 or 20% ? Why not just explain it honestly? Had Todd been the speaker and provided the same information he did in his post, I would have had little/no problem with it and would have joined the nice round of applause at the end of the presentation. My questions probably would have been more along the lines of: What can we, as consumers and voters, do to help make BD blends available at the pump? Will you actually make the BD that you plan blend with petro for distribution or do you plan to buy it from local producers? When can we expect to see BD blends at the pump in this area? I was uneasy with the BD presentation when I left the biofuels forum . Finding out that the presenter was linked to petro-oil, hasn't helped. Tom - Original Message - From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry I think you said it Tom; The money. Possible? Running 5 or 10% BD means still selling 90 to 95% of the petroleum.. Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Snip Somehow I know I should be following the money. It must involve dollars and cents. Any ideas? Thanks , I've been mulling this over for weeks. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry
Todd, Thanks for the reply. If I understand you correctly, a reasonable strategy is to start at lower blends, largely due to limited production ( demand?). Subsidies and a premium added to blends help to make production profitable. As profit stimulates production, blends can be increased to B-50, even B-75. The lower blends also help establish a comfort level with consumers allow manufacturers of diesel engines, pumps, etc. to test their equipment on various blends of BD. I admit I'm still a bit baffled by the subsidies: B) Taking existing inventory of B-100 and dilluting it, to let's say 10%, allows the blender to net the entire subsidy plus charge a premium of several cents per gallon for the blended fuel. If that premium is $0.05 per gallon, this amounts to $0.50 on top of the subsidy dollar, or fifty cents if WVO is the parent stock. Lower blends result in higher profits? 1 gal B-100 --- 10 gal B-10 blend. The subsidy doesn't change by lowering the blend. The increased profit comes from the premium charges on the blend (regardless of % BD). Ex. 5 cents on 10 gal rather than on just 1gal. Have I got it right? Won't subidies, as they now exist, and the premium that can be charged on top of the subsidies actually discourage higher blending? I'm impatient. I started making BD largely because of concerns about CO2 emissions. The idea was to make it until it becomes available; then I'll buy it. Now I want it to be made locally . I want it to be a part of an energy strategy that includes diversification and starts with conservation. I don't see how my demands for the commercial product will fit, given their track record, with the philosophy of the powers that control fuel blending and distribution. Is there really any hope for commercially produced BD to become available w/o involving the big oil companies in its blending and distribution? ... sort of like the local bakery, corner deli, diner or restaurant, local vegs in the local family-owned market, rather than WalMarts, franchises and fast food ... can locally produced biodiesel be part of our future, or should I plan on making my own forever? I continue to write to my elected representatives and appreciate your help in understanding the economics of BD from a commercial production view. Additions/corrections are always appreciated. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry Thomas, A) The subsidy is for blended fuel only, up to $1.00 per gallon for B-99 from first use feedstock and up to $0.50 per gallon for WVO feedstock. B) Taking existing inventory of B-100 and dilluting it, to let's say 10%, allows the blender to net the entire subsidy plus charge a premium of several cents per gallon for the blended fuel. If that premium is $0.05 per gallon, this amounts to $0.50 on top of the subsidy dollar, or fifty cents if WVO is the parent stock. C) The biggest bang for the buck relative to environmental benefits is at approximately B-75. Running blends higher than that, up to B-99 or straight B-100 means that the ratio of emissions gains is reduced in comparison to B-75. The environmentally logical pursuit would be to not run anything more than B-75 until there is enough biodiesel for the entire market to run B-75. Unfortunately, the primary motivation in both the private and commercial sectors is often soley to reduce personal or corporate fuel costs. As home-brewers and most intermediate users/producers such as fleet operators are not set up for high ratio blending and aren't in the game for distribution, they simply run the B-99 and take the subsidy dollar. Money trumps environmental benefit in such cases. In commercial distribution cases, money is still the motivator, but the moderate blends become available to the market. Market wins and environment benefits. If this were about the environment, there would be legislation forbidding use of any biodiesel in blends above B-75 until the market was saturated enough for everyone to run higher blends. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: Todd, You wrote: There's greater profit in blending biodiesel rather than selling straight. and later: Unfortunately, economic benefits aren't in line with environmental benefits. And the subsidy dollar doesn't help that matter either. Could you explain these two points? Thanks, Tom - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry Thomas, Why? You asked... 1) There's greater profit
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry
Thomas, Lower blends result in higher profits? 1 gal B-100 --- 10 gal B-10 blend. The subsidy doesn't change by lowering the blend. The increased profit comes from the premium charges on the blend (regardless of % BD). Ex. 5 cents on 10 gal rather than on just 1gal. Have I got it right? The premium charges come from blending, yes. But if you charge $0.05 per gallon of B-10, that nets a total of $0.50 extra profit per gallon of B-100. So B-9.9 times Five gallons plus th $1.00 subsidy per gallon of B-99 (virgin oil feedstock) nets a total of $1.50 profit per gallon of B-99. Won't subidies, as they now exist, and the premium that can be charged on top of the subsidies actually discourage higher blending? Yup. But that won't last forever as inventories of biodiesel increase. Blenders will eventually be forced to offer higher blends. For the time being, however, they're quite happy with offering lower blends and taking a few more pennies per gallon profit. The argument that you will hear for justifying the profit taking off blends is that they have to hold different inventories. Nonsense. The stuff is blended at the nozzle. Reset the mixer and pump a different tanker compartment with a different blend than the last one that was filled. Reset it for the next customer, etc. It's a few seconds for the metering change and a tidy little profit is netted. Is there really any hope for commercially produced BD to become available w/o involving the big oil companies in its blending and distribution? Yes and no. It will never be an either / or situation. can locally produced biodiesel be part of our future, Yes. Much depends upon the motive of the manufacturer. or should I plan on making my own forever? Sure. But if you want to place the planet over profit (personal savings), the suggestion would be to share your fuel and run a blend in the neighborhood of B-75. Your mother (Earth) would appreciate that. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: Todd, Thanks for the reply. If I understand you correctly, a reasonable strategy is to start at lower blends, largely due to limited production ( demand?). Subsidies and a premium added to blends help to make production profitable. As profit stimulates production, blends can be increased to B-50, even B-75. The lower blends also help establish a comfort level with consumers allow manufacturers of diesel engines, pumps, etc. to test their equipment on various blends of BD. I admit I'm still a bit baffled by the subsidies: B) Taking existing inventory of B-100 and dilluting it, to let's say 10%, allows the blender to net the entire subsidy plus charge a premium of several cents per gallon for the blended fuel. If that premium is $0.05 per gallon, this amounts to $0.50 on top of the subsidy dollar, or fifty cents if WVO is the parent stock. Lower blends result in higher profits? 1 gal B-100 --- 10 gal B-10 blend. The subsidy doesn't change by lowering the blend. The increased profit comes from the premium charges on the blend (regardless of % BD). Ex. 5 cents on 10 gal rather than on just 1gal. Have I got it right? Won't subidies, as they now exist, and the premium that can be charged on top of the subsidies actually discourage higher blending? I'm impatient. I started making BD largely because of concerns about CO2 emissions. The idea was to make it until it becomes available; then I'll buy it. Now I want it to be made locally . I want it to be a part of an energy strategy that includes diversification and starts with conservation. I don't see how my demands for the commercial product will fit, given their track record, with the philosophy of the powers that control fuel blending and distribution. Is there really any hope for commercially produced BD to become available w/o involving the big oil companies in its blending and distribution? ... sort of like the local bakery, corner deli, diner or restaurant, local vegs in the local family-owned market, rather than WalMarts, franchises and fast food ... can locally produced biodiesel be part of our future, or should I plan on making my own forever? I continue to write to my elected representatives and appreciate your help in understanding the economics of BD from a commercial production view. Additions/corrections are always appreciated. Thanks again, Tom - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 23, 2006 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry Thomas, A) The subsidy is for blended fuel only, up to $1.00 per gallon for B-99 from first use feedstock and up to $0.50 per gallon for WVO feedstock. B) Taking existing inventory of B-100 and dilluting it, to let's say 10%, allows the blender to net the entire subsidy plus charge a premium of several cents
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry
The argument that you will hear for justifying the profit taking off blends is that they have to hold different inventories. Nonsense. The stuff is blended at the nozzle. Reset the mixer and pump a different tanker compartment with a different blend than the last one that was filled. Reset it for the next customer, etc. It's a few seconds for the metering change and a tidy little profit is netted. Ideally yes, but the place here doesn't blend it at the nozzle. Mainly because they can't have the B100 tanks outside. So, they have a tank of pre-blended B20 outside at the credit card pumps, and a 600 gallon tank of B100 inside and you pull the hose out the door. I don't actually know of anywhere around here that sells B100 in a normal pump, because of the temperature issue. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry
Thomas, Why? You asked... 1) There's greater profit in blending biodiesel rather than selling straight. 2) Scrap all the misinformation about engine problems at higher blends. 3) Also scrap his misinformation about emissions benefits tapering off at 10%. They actually do little until after B-10, rising sharply to approximately B-75, where it plateaus. 4) Although his ratios on benefits are quite off, he is right in the environmental benefit of everyone running a blend, rather than some people running B-100. It's better for the environment (greater emissions benefits across the board) if everyone runs B-10 until the market-wide supply is sufficient for everyone to run B-15, then B-20, etc Essentially, if people were looking out for the planet first and their wallets second, anyone producing biofuel for personal use should share with others who don't have it. One vehicle at B-100 achieves less emissions benefits than two vehicles, one running B-25 and another at B-75. Unfortunately, economic benefits aren't in line with environmental benefits. And the subsidy dollar doesn't help that matter either. Then again, if there weren't a subsidy it's rather doubtful that the industry would be growing leaps and bounds as it is. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: I attended a public forum on Biofuels a while back. One of the speakers, the head of a biodiesel co-op, had me perplexed by his repeated assertion that biodiesel can be used in 2, 5%, even 10% or 20% blends, but above these levels engine problems and gelling can occur. He had graphs showing the benefit of using biodiesel to improve exhaust emissions, but pointed out that above a 10% blend improvement tapers off better to have 10 people driving with B10 than 1 person driving with B100. I questioned his assertions regarding gelling of fuel and pointed out that I drop from BD100 to BD70 in winter months w/o gelling. I explained the cleansing effect of BD and how this may clog fuel filters during initial use, but mentioned that this will also happen w blends as low as 5%. Actual engine damage is more a function of fuel quality than the nature of the fuel itself ... even homebrewers can make quality fuel shouldn't commercial producers be expected to do the same? I conceded that at BD10 there is a 10% reduction in hydrocarbon emissions and that at BD100 there is only a 70% reduction, but suggested that I'd like to see all 10 drivers using BD100 to achieve the 70% reduction. There were 60 - 70 people at the forum; some from local newspapers, others from Community Action Groups, most were just curious about biofuels. Their enthusiasm was palpable, their questions polite. Before responding to a question, the speaker asked each person their name, and then spoke as if he was having a friendly, heart-to-heart conversation. To my questions he simply shrugged his shoulders and moved on. I contacted the friend who told me about the forum. He emailed me the actual invitation he had received. Re: the Biodiesel guy: .Jerry --- has over 20 years of domain expertise in the petroleum distribution and marketing and is presently a member of a biodiesel business development team at a major independent energy supplier. ... Jerry does consulting in building biodiesel refineries and advocacy work in promoting alternative and sustainable fuels. Jerry brings over 25 years of experience in the petroleum industry in technology in the distribution, logistics and terminal operations areas. Jerry has been personally involved in the alternative energy arena for the past 15 years, operating his personal car on biodiesel more than 10 years ago and presently driving a van powered by CNG (compressed natural gas) as well as a car on home made biodiesel. He was clearly advocating 2%, 5% blends. Why? Is it simply because the auto manufacturers will void warrantees at higher blends? If so, why not just say so. Somehow I know I should be following the money. It must involve dollars and cents. Any ideas? Thanks , I've been mulling this over for weeks. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.3/395 - Release Date: 7/21/2006
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry
Todd, You wrote: There's greater profit in blending biodiesel rather than selling straight. and later: Unfortunately, economic benefits aren't in line with environmental benefits. And the subsidy dollar doesn't help that matter either. Could you explain these two points? Thanks, Tom - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry Thomas, Why? You asked... 1) There's greater profit in blending biodiesel rather than selling straight. 2) Scrap all the misinformation about engine problems at higher blends. 3) Also scrap his misinformation about emissions benefits tapering off at 10%. They actually do little until after B-10, rising sharply to approximately B-75, where it plateaus. 4) Although his ratios on benefits are quite off, he is right in the environmental benefit of everyone running a blend, rather than some people running B-100. It's better for the environment (greater emissions benefits across the board) if everyone runs B-10 until the market-wide supply is sufficient for everyone to run B-15, then B-20, etc Essentially, if people were looking out for the planet first and their wallets second, anyone producing biofuel for personal use should share with others who don't have it. One vehicle at B-100 achieves less emissions benefits than two vehicles, one running B-25 and another at B-75. Unfortunately, economic benefits aren't in line with environmental benefits. And the subsidy dollar doesn't help that matter either. Then again, if there weren't a subsidy it's rather doubtful that the industry would be growing leaps and bounds as it is. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: I attended a public forum on Biofuels a while back. One of the speakers, the head of a biodiesel co-op, had me perplexed by his repeated assertion that biodiesel can be used in 2, 5%, even 10% or 20% blends, but above these levels engine problems and gelling can occur. He had graphs showing the benefit of using biodiesel to improve exhaust emissions, but pointed out that above a 10% blend improvement tapers off better to have 10 people driving with B10 than 1 person driving with B100. I questioned his assertions regarding gelling of fuel and pointed out that I drop from BD100 to BD70 in winter months w/o gelling. I explained the cleansing effect of BD and how this may clog fuel filters during initial use, but mentioned that this will also happen w blends as low as 5%. Actual engine damage is more a function of fuel quality than the nature of the fuel itself ... even homebrewers can make quality fuel shouldn't commercial producers be expected to do the same? I conceded that at BD10 there is a 10% reduction in hydrocarbon emissions and that at BD100 there is only a 70% reduction, but suggested that I'd like to see all 10 drivers using BD100 to achieve the 70% reduction. There were 60 - 70 people at the forum; some from local newspapers, others from Community Action Groups, most were just curious about biofuels. Their enthusiasm was palpable, their questions polite. Before responding to a question, the speaker asked each person their name, and then spoke as if he was having a friendly, heart-to-heart conversation. To my questions he simply shrugged his shoulders and moved on. I contacted the friend who told me about the forum. He emailed me the actual invitation he had received. Re: the Biodiesel guy: .Jerry --- has over 20 years of domain expertise in the petroleum distribution and marketing and is presently a member of a biodiesel business development team at a major independent energy supplier. ... Jerry does consulting in building biodiesel refineries and advocacy work in promoting alternative and sustainable fuels. Jerry brings over 25 years of experience in the petroleum industry in technology in the distribution, logistics and terminal operations areas. Jerry has been personally involved in the alternative energy arena for the past 15 years, operating his personal car on biodiesel more than 10 years ago and presently driving a van powered by CNG (compressed natural gas) as well as a car on home made biodiesel. He was clearly advocating 2%, 5% blends. Why? Is it simply because the auto manufacturers will void warrantees at higher blends? If so, why not just say so. Somehow I know I should be following the money. It must involve dollars and cents. Any ideas? Thanks , I've been mulling this over for weeks. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry
Hi Thomas, You may have missed this item posted recently. It concerned a New Zealand company formed to make, promote and sell bio-diesel. They solved the problem of manufacturer's warranty by confining their engine alterations to the fuel lines only.Might be worth contacting them for further information. Regards, Bob. Here it is: PUT AN OLIVE IN YOUR TANK Well not quite, but if David Renwick has his way it could be olive oil or even used cooking oil for that matter - once it has been refined into biodiesel. His conversion kit, which allows diesel engines to run on biodiesel offers considerably lower fuel costs and higher efficiency. He demonstrated both in Kerikeri this week with a late model SUV, modified to run on either standard diesel or biofuels, or a mix of the two. To illustrate his vehicle's versatility he urged his audience to pour a range of standard cookng oils into the tank while the engine was running. A test drive showed good acceleration, no smoke from the exhaust and an absence of diesel smell. Instead a slight fragrance of Mom's kitchen. .Renwick, Operations Director of Envirocar - a company he grew from a garage-based idea four years ago into a national organisation, is an enthusiastic exponent of the new wave of environmentally friendly fuels. He claims his fuel gives cleaner burning engines, lower emissions, efficiencies of 15% or more and costs half that of standard diesel. Asked the hard questions as to cost, availability, payback time and risk to vehicle warranty Renwick was open and frank. Biofuel supplied by his organisation currently costs 69 cents a litre (against the present Kerikeri price of diesel at $1.26), the conversation kit (fitted by a trained technician) comes in at $4,000 and includes a 1,000 litre storage tank for your backyard. Payback time depended on mileage i.e. the further you travelled on an annual basis the faster you could amortise the cost of conversation. For one large diesel fleet in Wellington it was four months. Any diesel engine, even those used on farm machinery, could be converted to biofuel.By agreement with car makers the fuel was acceptable. Conversion was limited to the fuel lines only and did not affect engine warranties. As a backup, Envirocar-converted vehicles retained a separate tank for ordinary diesel. Envirocar is supported by Korean car maker SSangYong and the Foundation for Research, Science and Technology which this year pumped in $93,000 to take the operation from backyard to production line. Interested biofuellers can contact Mr Renwick at [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 11:53 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry I attended a public forum on Biofuels a while back. One of the speakers, the head ofa biodiesel co-op, had me perplexed by his repeated assertion that biodiesel can be usedin 2,5%, " even 10% or 20% blends", but above these levels engine problems and gelling can occur. He had graphs showing the benefit of usingbiodiesel to improve exhaust emissions, but pointed out that above a 10% blend improvement tapers off "better to have 10 people driving with B10 than 1 person driving with B100." I questioned his assertions regarding gelling of fuel and pointed out that I drop from BD100 to BD70 in winter months w/o gelling. I explained the cleansing effect of BD and how this may clog fuel filters during initial use, but mentioned that this will also happen w blends as low as 5%. Actual engine damage is more a function of fuel quality than the nature of the fuel itself ... even homebrewers can make quality fuel shouldn't commercial producers be expected to do the same? I conceded that at BD10 there is a 10% reduction in hydrocarbon emissions and that at BD100 there is "only a 70% reduction", but suggested that I'd like to see all 10 drivers using BD100 to achieve the 70% reduction. There were 60 - 70 people at the forum; some from local newspapers, others from Community Action Groups, most were just curious about biofuels.Their enthusiasm was palpable, their questions polite. Before responding to a question, the speaker asked each person their name, and then spoke as if he was having a friendly, heart-to-heart conversation. To my questions he simply shrugged his shoulders and moved on. I contacted the friend who told me about the forum. He emailed me the actual invitation he had received. Re: the Biodiesel guy: " .Jerry--- has over 20 years of domain expertise in the petroleum distribution and marketing and is presently a member of a biodiesel business development team at a major independent energy supplier. ...Jerry does consulting in building biodiesel refineries and advocacy work in promoting alternative
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry
Hello Bob,
I did read the post you
mentioned. It appeared to be referring to the use of waste veg oil
directlyrather thanto using biodiesel.
"To illustrate his vehicle's versatility he urged
his audience to pour a range of standard cookng oils into the tank while the
engine was running."
and
"the conversation kit (fitted by a trained
technician) comes in at $4,000"
$4000 NZD ($2500 USD) for fuel
line alteration (pre-heater?) + installation of a separate diesel
tank.
If it was for biodiesel the only
alterations would involve replacing rubber hoses/seals with viton ... certainly
less than $4000, and there's no need for a separate tank.
"By agreement with car makers the fuel
was acceptable."
Which car
makers?
Here in the US, some
diesels (ex. Jeep Liberty) are sold with 5% BD in the tanks. This is, however,
the highest blend that will not void the warantee. The warantees on Cummins
diesel engines in our large pickup trucks also limit blends to 5% BD. I've been
told that they are re-thinking this limit and will probably go to 20% blends as
did New Holland.
I've been told that it is
a fuel quality issue. Commercially produced biodiesel does not always meet
quality standards. The thinking is that 2% or 5% blends, oflow quality BD,
will not cause harm to engines.
Tom
- Original Message -
From:
Bob Molloy
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 9:09
PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the
Petroleum Industry
Hi Thomas,
You may have missed this item posted recently. It concerned a New Zealand
company formed to make, promote and sell bio-diesel. They solved the problem
of manufacturer's warranty by confining their engine alterations to the fuel
lines only.Might be worth contacting them for further
information.
Regards,
Bob.
Here it is:
PUT AN OLIVE IN YOUR TANK
Well not quite, but if David Renwick has his way
it could be olive oil or even used cooking oil for that matter - once it has
been refined into biodiesel. His conversion kit, which allows diesel engines
to run on biodiesel offers considerably lower fuel costs and higher
efficiency. He demonstrated both in Kerikeri this week with a late model
SUV, modified to run on either standard diesel or biofuels, or a mix of the
two. To illustrate his vehicle's versatility he urged his audience to pour a
range of standard cookng oils into the tank while the engine was running. A
test drive showed good acceleration, no smoke from the exhaust and an absence
of diesel smell. Instead a slight fragrance of Mom's kitchen.
.Renwick, Operations Director of Envirocar - a company he grew from a
garage-based idea four years ago into a national organisation, is an
enthusiastic exponent of the new wave of environmentally friendly fuels. He
claims his fuel gives cleaner burning engines, lower emissions, efficiencies
of 15% or more and costs half that of standard diesel. Asked the hard
questions as to cost, availability, payback time and risk to vehicle warranty
Renwick was open and frank. Biofuel supplied by his organisation currently
costs 69 cents a litre (against the present Kerikeri price of diesel at
$1.26), the conversation kit (fitted by a trained technician) comes in at
$4,000 and includes a 1,000 litre storage tank for your backyard.
Payback time depended on mileage i.e. the further you travelled on
an annual basis the faster you could amortise the cost of conversation. For
one large diesel fleet in Wellington it was four months. Any diesel engine,
even those used on farm machinery, could be converted to biofuel.By
agreement with car makers the fuel was acceptable. Conversion was limited to
the fuel lines only and did not affect engine warranties. As a backup,
Envirocar-converted vehicles retained a separate tank for ordinary diesel.
Envirocar is supported by Korean car maker SSangYong and the Foundation
for Research, Science and Technology which this year pumped in $93,000 to take
the operation from backyard to production line. Interested
biofuellers can contact Mr Renwick at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From:
Thomas
Kelly
To: biofuel
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 11:53
PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the
Petroleum Industry
I attended a public
forum on Biofuels a while back. One of the speakers, the head ofa
biodiesel co-op, had me perplexed by his repeated assertion that biodiesel
can be usedin 2,5%, " even 10% or 20% blends", but above these
levels engine problems and gelling can occur. He had graphs showing the
benefit of usingbiodiesel to improve exhaust emissions, but pointed
out that above a 10% blend improvement tapers off "better to have 10
people driving with B10 than 1 per
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry
Thomas, A) The subsidy is for blended fuel only, up to $1.00 per gallon for B-99 from first use feedstock and up to $0.50 per gallon for WVO feedstock. B) Taking existing inventory of B-100 and dilluting it, to let's say 10%, allows the blender to net the entire subsidy plus charge a premium of several cents per gallon for the blended fuel. If that premium is $0.05 per gallon, this amounts to $0.50 on top of the subsidy dollar, or fifty cents if WVO is the parent stock. C) The biggest bang for the buck relative to environmental benefits is at approximately B-75. Running blends higher than that, up to B-99 or straight B-100 means that the ratio of emissions gains is reduced in comparison to B-75. The environmentally logical pursuit would be to not run anything more than B-75 until there is enough biodiesel for the entire market to run B-75. Unfortunately, the primary motivation in both the private and commercial sectors is often soley to reduce personal or corporate fuel costs. As home-brewers and most intermediate users/producers such as fleet operators are not set up for high ratio blending and aren't in the game for distribution, they simply run the B-99 and take the subsidy dollar. Money trumps environmental benefit in such cases. In commercial distribution cases, money is still the motivator, but the moderate blends become available to the market. Market wins and environment benefits. If this were about the environment, there would be legislation forbidding use of any biodiesel in blends above B-75 until the market was saturated enough for everyone to run higher blends. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: Todd, You wrote: There's greater profit in blending biodiesel rather than selling straight. and later: Unfortunately, economic benefits aren't in line with environmental benefits. And the subsidy dollar doesn't help that matter either. Could you explain these two points? Thanks, Tom - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 9:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry Thomas, Why? You asked... 1) There's greater profit in blending biodiesel rather than selling straight. 2) Scrap all the misinformation about engine problems at higher blends. 3) Also scrap his misinformation about emissions benefits tapering off at 10%. They actually do little until after B-10, rising sharply to approximately B-75, where it plateaus. 4) Although his ratios on benefits are quite off, he is right in the environmental benefit of everyone running a blend, rather than some people running B-100. It's better for the environment (greater emissions benefits across the board) if everyone runs B-10 until the market-wide supply is sufficient for everyone to run B-15, then B-20, etc Essentially, if people were looking out for the planet first and their wallets second, anyone producing biofuel for personal use should share with others who don't have it. One vehicle at B-100 achieves less emissions benefits than two vehicles, one running B-25 and another at B-75. Unfortunately, economic benefits aren't in line with environmental benefits. And the subsidy dollar doesn't help that matter either. Then again, if there weren't a subsidy it's rather doubtful that the industry would be growing leaps and bounds as it is. Todd Swearingen Thomas Kelly wrote: I attended a public forum on Biofuels a while back. One of the speakers, the head of a biodiesel co-op, had me perplexed by his repeated assertion that biodiesel can be used in 2, 5%, even 10% or 20% blends, but above these levels engine problems and gelling can occur. He had graphs showing the benefit of using biodiesel to improve exhaust emissions, but pointed out that above a 10% blend improvement tapers off better to have 10 people driving with B10 than 1 person driving with B100. I questioned his assertions regarding gelling of fuel and pointed out that I drop from BD100 to BD70 in winter months w/o gelling. I explained the cleansing effect of BD and how this may clog fuel filters during initial use, but mentioned that this will also happen w blends as low as 5%. Actual engine damage is more a function of fuel quality than the nature of the fuel itself ... even homebrewers can make quality fuel shouldn't commercial producers be expected to do the same? I conceded that at BD10 there is a 10% reduction in hydrocarbon emissions and that at BD100 there is only a 70% reduction, but suggested that I'd like to see all 10 drivers using BD100 to achieve the 70% reduction. There were 60 - 70 people at the forum; some from local newspapers, others from Community Action Groups, most were just curious about biofuels. Their enthusiasm was palpable, their questions polite. Before responding to a question
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry
Hi Tom,
Agreed, the pricedoes sound a bit stiff even though it includes
installation of a 1,000 litre holding tank on your property as part of the deal.
I felt it made the payback timefor a single vehicle barely worth
it.He seemed to be more interested in fleet owners. As far as warranties
are concerned I talked to Renwick who assured me that "all diesel engine
warranties in the usual range of SUVs are covered" by his conversation kit.
Granted, I didn'tcheck it out with any particular manufacturer,
myassumption beingthat if he was happy to make those statements to
the media then he was taking a major risk of being clobbered by someone in the
industry. Certainly any fleet owner who found his warranties voided would be
screaming for compensation. Hisbusiness base is almost 1,000 km from where
I live so I can't personally vouch forhis bona fides but I did have
someone else look into itand Envirocarappears to be what Renwick
claims it is.
I saw thebusiness of pouring cooking oils
into fuel tank assimply a gimmick to catch audience attention at his press
conference and give the media something to hang the story on. He assured me the
engine normally ran on BD100. Send a query to him at [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'd
be interested to hear how it pans out.
Regards,
Bob.
Original Message -
From:
Thomas
Kelly
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, July 24, 2006 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the
Petroleum Industry
Hello Bob,
I did read the post you
mentioned. It appeared to be referring to the use of waste veg oil
directlyrather thanto using biodiesel.
"To illustrate his vehicle's versatility he urged
his audience to pour a range of standard cookng oils into the tank while the
engine was running."
and
"the conversation kit (fitted by a trained
technician) comes in at $4,000"
$4000 NZD ($2500 USD) for fuel
line alteration (pre-heater?) + installation of a separate diesel
tank.
If it was for biodiesel the
only alterations would involve replacing rubber hoses/seals with viton ...
certainly less than $4000, and there's no need for a separate
tank.
"By agreement with car makers the
fuel was acceptable."
Which car
makers?
Here in the US, some
diesels (ex. Jeep Liberty) are sold with 5% BD in the tanks. This is, however,
the highest blend that will not void the warantee. The warantees on Cummins
diesel engines in our large pickup trucks also limit blends to 5% BD. I've
been told that they are re-thinking this limit and will probably go to 20%
blends as did New Holland.
I've been told that it
is a fuel quality issue. Commercially produced biodiesel does not always meet
quality standards. The thinking is that 2% or 5% blends, oflow quality
BD, will not cause harm to engines.
Tom
- Original Message -
From:
Bob Molloy
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 9:09
PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and
the Petroleum Industry
Hi Thomas,
You may have missed this item posted recently. It concerned a New Zealand
company formed to make, promote and sell bio-diesel. They solved the problem
of manufacturer's warranty by confining their engine alterations to the fuel
lines only.Might be worth contacting them for further
information.
Regards,
Bob.
Here it is:
PUT AN OLIVE IN YOUR TANK
Well not quite, but if David Renwick has his
way it could be olive oil or even used cooking oil for that matter - once it
has been refined into biodiesel. His conversion kit, which allows diesel
engines to run on biodiesel offers considerably lower fuel costs and higher
efficiency. He demonstrated both in Kerikeri this week with a late model
SUV, modified to run on either standard diesel or biofuels, or a mix of the
two. To illustrate his vehicle's versatility he urged his audience to pour a
range of standard cookng oils into the tank while the engine was running. A
test drive showed good acceleration, no smoke from the exhaust and an
absence of diesel smell. Instead a slight fragrance of Mom's kitchen.
.Renwick, Operations Director of Envirocar - a company he grew from a
garage-based idea four years ago into a national organisation, is an
enthusiastic exponent of the new wave of environmentally friendly fuels. He
claims his fuel gives cleaner burning engines, lower emissions, efficiencies
of 15% or more and costs half that of standard diesel. Asked the hard
questions as to cost, availability, payback time and risk to vehicle
warranty Renwick was open and frank. Biofuel supplied by his organisation
currently costs 69 cents a litre (against the present Kerikeri price of
diesel
[Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry
I attended a public forum on Biofuels a while back. One of the speakers, the head ofa biodiesel co-op, had me perplexed by his repeated assertion that biodiesel can be usedin 2,5%, " even 10% or 20% blends", but above these levels engine problems and gelling can occur. He had graphs showing the benefit of usingbiodiesel to improve exhaust emissions, but pointed out that above a 10% blend improvement tapers off "better to have 10 people driving with B10 than 1 person driving with B100." I questioned his assertions regarding gelling of fuel and pointed out that I drop from BD100 to BD70 in winter months w/o gelling. I explained the cleansing effect of BD and how this may clog fuel filters during initial use, but mentioned that this will also happen w blends as low as 5%. Actual engine damage is more a function of fuel quality than the nature of the fuel itself ... even homebrewers can make quality fuel shouldn't commercial producers be expected to do the same? I conceded that at BD10 there is a 10% reduction in hydrocarbon emissions and that at BD100 there is "only a 70% reduction", but suggested that I'd like to see all 10 drivers using BD100 to achieve the 70% reduction. There were 60 - 70 people at the forum; some from local newspapers, others from Community Action Groups, most were just curious about biofuels.Their enthusiasm was palpable, their questions polite. Before responding to a question, the speaker asked each person their name, and then spoke as if he was having a friendly, heart-to-heart conversation. To my questions he simply shrugged his shoulders and moved on. I contacted the friend who told me about the forum. He emailed me the actual invitation he had received. Re: the Biodiesel guy: " .Jerry--- has over 20 years of domain expertise in the petroleum distribution and marketing and is presently a member of a biodiesel business development team at a major independent energy supplier. ...Jerry does consulting in building biodiesel refineries and advocacy work in promoting alternative and sustainable fuels. Jerry brings over 25 years of experience in the petroleum industry in technology in thedistribution, logistics and terminal operations areas.Jerry has been personally involved in the alternative energy arena for the past 15 years,operating his personal car on biodiesel more than 10 years ago and presently driving a van powered by CNG (compressed natural gas) as well as a car on home made biodiesel." He was clearly advocating 2%, 5% blends. Why? Is it simply because the auto manufacturers will void warrantees at higher blends? If so, why not just say so. Somehow I know I should be following the money. It must involve dollars and cents. Any ideas? Thanks , I've been mulling this over for weeks. Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Biodiesel and the Petroleum Industry
In my opinion, that until the petroleum industry finds a way for them to regulate (control) biodiesel, they will use all at their disposal to keep the general public in the dark about the whole truth.Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I attended a public forum on Biofuels a while back. One of the speakers, the head ofa biodiesel co-op, had me perplexed by his repeated assertion that biodiesel can be usedin 2,5%, " even 10% or 20% blends", but above these levels engine problems and gelling can occur. He had graphs showing the benefit of usingbiodiesel to improve exhaust emissions, but pointed out that above a 10% blend improvement tapers off "better to have 10 people driving with B10 than 1 person driving with B100." I questioned his assertions regarding gelling of fuel and pointed out that I drop from BD100 to BD70 in winter months w/o gelling. I explained the cleansing effect of BD and how this may clog fuel filters during initial use, but mentioned that this will also happen w blends as low as 5%. Actual engine damage is more a function of fuel quality than the nature of the fuel itself ... even homebrewers can make quality fuel shouldn't commercial producers be expected to do the same? I conceded that at BD10 there is a 10% reduction in hydrocarbon emissions and that at BD100 there is "only a 70% reduction", but suggested that I'd like to see all 10 drivers using BD100 to achieve the 70% reduction. There were 60 - 70 people at the forum; some from local newspapers, others from Community Action Groups, most were just curious about biofuels.Their enthusiasm was palpable, their questions polite. Before responding to a question, the speaker asked each person their name, and then spoke as if he was having a friendly, heart-to-heart conversation. To my questions he simply shrugged his shoulders and moved on. I contacted the friend who told me about the forum. He emailed me the actual invitation he had received. Re: the Biodiesel guy: " .Jerry--- has over 20 years of domain expertise in the petroleum distribution and marketing and is presently a member of a biodiesel business development team at a major independent energy supplier. ...Jerry does consulting in building biodiesel refineries and advocacy work in promoting alternative and sustainable fuels. Jerry brings over 25 years of experience in the petroleum industry in technology in thedistribution, logistics and terminal operations areas.Jerry has been personally involved in the alternative energy arena for the past 15 years,operating his personal car on biodiesel more than 10 years ago and presently driving a van powered by CNG (compressed natural gas) as well as a car on home made biodiesel." He was clearly advocating 2%, 5% blends. Why? Is it simply because the auto manufacturers will void warrantees at higher blends? If so, why not just say so. Somehow I know I should be following the money. It must involve dollars and cents. Any ideas? Thanks , I've been mulling this over for weeks. Tom ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
