Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Hi David Keith, Keith Addison wrote: Where can I find a quick transform between gpd/lpd of biodiesel and mixer volume, for batch-process mixers? As to the size of the mixer, how long is a piece of string? I didn't really want to get into this [...] Still, I'm glad you did. That helps a lot. I'm not sure it will though, it's a bit unlikely that they'd use such a setup. More likely the company that provides the processor will decide, and they'd quite likely opt for a bigger processor (and lower labour costs?). What I am trying to do (besides publicly exposing my ignorance re biodiesel), :-) Never mind, so are they. is to get some idea of how it will look on the ground so I can fold that information into my thoughts about the design of the biogas part of the process, which (as mentioned) is apparently an afterthought. As the poor step child, feeding from the table scraps of the biodiesel process, it behooves us to have a fine understanding of what is happening so as not to get in the way... Finally, I mentioned interplanting or intercropping options with Jatropha. I have found some resources regarding this [...] Did you try this? http://www.fact-fuels.org/en/FACT_Knowledge_Centre/FACT_Publications?session=cl4scdo0dk1e8c4ql2hpeev1s1 I had not previously seen that page, although I had encountered some of the publications, such as the handbook. Again, many thanks. Also: Physic nut -- Jatropha curcas L. Promoting the conservation and use of underutilized and neglected crops [...] I did run across that publication by Heller. But in spite of its relatively recent vintage (1996) he seems unconvinced that you (and your brethren and sistren) exist: Yeah he's right, we don't exist, it's more peaceful that way. Transesterified oil can be used in any diesel engine. This process is normally carried out in centralized plants since the the small-scale economy of transesterification has not been determined. [p 22, para 3] :-) So it is sometimes alleged, especially in the world of jatropha it seems. Eg: Production principle: SVO - decentralized small oil expellers Biodiesel - central, big industrial units [Also:] Human toxicity SVO - regularly no or small Biodiesel - toxic And so on - from Comparison of pure plant oil and bio diesel as fuel by Prof. E. Schrimpff, FH Weihenstephan, Germany http://jatropha.org/p-o-engines/svo-bd-characteristics.htm A rather ignorant professor. Schrimpff hmpff. And he does not even mention biogas (sniff!). Aw. Quite a lot about it at www.fact-fuels.org though, hope that helps. For my own purposes only, I found Claims and Facts on Jatropha curcas L. (linked from the page you mentioned) to have more of the sort of information that interests me (http://www.ifad.org/events/jatropha/breeding/claims.pdf and elsewhere). Yes, that's quite useful. Thanks. Best Keith d. -- David William House The Complete Biogas Handbook |www.completebiogas.com| Make no search for water. But find thirst, And water from the very ground will burst. (Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in /Delight of Hearts/, p. 77) ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Hello David Keith, Where can I find a quick transform between gpd/lpd of biodiesel and mixer volume, for batch-process mixers? If I understand correctly, it will take perhaps 3 days to produce the biodiesel in the mixer, after which one could (and in a plant this size, would probably) pump the reactant elsewhere to undertake other processes using other equipment: settling, separation, washing, etc. If it takes a day to clean, prepare and load the mixer, and we add a half day to give some slack for... whatever, then the amount of reactant one can process in a year would have to be about 80 times the volume of the mixer. Thus with some idea of the ratio of end-product biodiesel volume to reactant volume, I would be able to estimate the size of the mixer itself. What is that ratio? Reactant usually means the alcohol, methanol, which is usually 20% of the volume of oil being processed. For the ratio of end-product biodiesel volume to feedstock volume, ie the jatropha oil, the production rate is or should be 100%: 1,000 litres of oil 1,000 litres of biodiesel. As to the size of the mixer, how long is a piece of string? I didn't really want to get into this (I don't work for such projects), and anyway the question didn't make sense to me. However, I mentioned a 1,000-litre processor, that would be a batch processor. I wouldn't want to do it, but using the basic single-stage base process, the processor should be able to produce one batch in little more than an hour, say 7-8 batches per working day, 7-8,000 litres a day. (An oil pre-heating tank would help.) The product could all go into multiple settling tanks (say 8, or use bigger tanks), for separation of the biodiesel from the settled by-product cocktail the next day, freeing the tanks for the next batches; again, say 8 washing tanks could get the washing process done in another day if stir washing is used, though that means the fuel has to be made properly or it will emulsify, see: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html Multiple tanks take a bit of space, maybe they haven't got the space or the labour or whatever, everyone's situation is different, so people use different schemes. Anything from 8 batches a day to 1 batch a day to a batch every five days is possible, with the same processor. To calculate your ratio you'd have to find out more about how they intend to operate (if they know). People often want to speed up the process to make it more efficient, which usually means taking shortcuts with the process itself or with stuff like centrifuges or so-called dry-washing and so on, unnecessary extras that don't work very well (not as well as gravity and water, respectively). But it's not really more efficiency they want, it's more production. Rather than messing with the process, get a bigger processor, or a second processor running in parallel (and double the number of settling and washing tanks). Keith Addison wrote: The project information I have says that they intend to use a suitable packed column, condenser, and receiver... to recover excess amount of Methanol in the system. These are the options: Reclaiming excess methanol http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#methreclaim As I grow more familiar with the site, I grow more amazed and grateful. Fabulous resource. Why thankyou sir. :-) By the way, on the page http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html, a link to Boston University's site is given for the MSDS for methanol (http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSMethanol.html). It's not there, even given that a search of the site using the tools thereon provided demonstrates that it's supposed to be there. In fact, it looks like, for the moment or permanently, /all/ MSDS information (http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/ESMSDS.html), even as linked from the lab safety page itself, has disappeared. (A pretty good MSDS for methanol is found at http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/M2015.htm, if the BU site does not resolve its problems soon, and a generic resource for MSDS information is at http://www2.hazard.com/msds/.) Aarghh!!! Broken links! Why do they do it?? :-( Thankyou David, I'll fix it. One can make biogas from methanol, and it therefore seems possible to me based on what little I know about its contents that the whole unseparated glycerol fraction of the trans-esterified result could likely be put in the digester. List members have surmised that, but not confirmed it. I'd be interested to know the results. I'm fuzzy as yet on when we will get a chance to run proof-of-concept tests, but if/when, I'll be in touch. Yes please. Finally, I mentioned interplanting or intercropping options with Jatropha. I have found some resources regarding this: http://www.jatrophabiodiesel.org/intercropping.php?_divid=menu3 http://www.bioruta.com/JATROPHA/Documentos/Agrotechnology%20of%20Jatropha.pdf The basic story, as far as I yet have found
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Keith, Keith Addison wrote: Where can I find a quick transform between gpd/lpd of biodiesel and mixer volume, for batch-process mixers? As to the size of the mixer, how long is a piece of string? I didn't really want to get into this [...] Still, I'm glad you did. That helps a lot. What I am trying to do (besides publicly exposing my ignorance re biodiesel), is to get some idea of how it will look on the ground so I can fold that information into my thoughts about the design of the biogas part of the process, which (as mentioned) is apparently an afterthought. As the poor step child, feeding from the table scraps of the biodiesel process, it behooves us to have a fine understanding of what is happening so as not to get in the way... Finally, I mentioned interplanting or intercropping options with Jatropha. I have found some resources regarding this [...] Did you try this? http://www.fact-fuels.org/en/FACT_Knowledge_Centre/FACT_Publications?session=cl4scdo0dk1e8c4ql2hpeev1s1 I had not previously seen that page, although I had encountered some of the publications, such as the handbook. Again, many thanks. Also: Physic nut -- Jatropha curcas L. Promoting the conservation and use of underutilized and neglected crops [...] I did run across that publication by Heller. But in spite of its relatively recent vintage (1996) he seems unconvinced that you (and your brethren and sistren) exist: Transesterified oil can be used in any diesel engine. This process is normally carried out in centralized plants since the the small-scale economy of transesterification has not been determined. [p 22, para 3] And he does not even mention biogas (sniff!). For my own purposes only, I found Claims and Facts on Jatropha curcas L. (linked from the page you mentioned) to have more of the sort of information that interests me (http://www.ifad.org/events/jatropha/breeding/claims.pdf and elsewhere). d. -- David William House The Complete Biogas Handbook |www.completebiogas.com| Make no search for water. But find thirst, And water from the very ground will burst. (Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in /Delight of Hearts/, p. 77) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090104/de53cdef/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Hi David Keith, Keith Addison wrote: Hello David And back at you. Good to hear from you. I've been contacted about a project in south Asia which would involve planting 600 ha to Jatropha, to produce 3,500 tonnes of biodiesel annually Since it bears on some of the points you raised, let me say that my connection to the project is indirect. An organization with which I've done some consulting re biogas has gotten interest from the folks who are developing the biodiesel plant, and so I've been asked to assist with the biogas add-on. As such, even if I had the answers to your [excellent] questions regarding the selection of Jatropha, monocultures, and whether mere jobs count as SED (social and economic development) since the information I have thus far makes only that connection, I neither know nor if I did would it make any difference. My position in the venture is rather humble, as befits my vast gifts (or perhaps they're half-vast). As such, I ask the questions I ask for two reasons. One is that I'm insatiably curious, just like Kipling's elephant child, and the other is that the biogas portion of the project, afterthought that it appears to be, should be designed with an eye towards the realities that are likely, as contrasted to simply what is stated as the plans. I'm always suspicious of the best crop or the best technology approach (see eg http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous4.html#1511Technology and the poor), and 600-ha monocrop plantations don't have a very good record. No question. We've talked about SED previously. My view, boiled down, is that what is needed is to attend to improving human capacity, in a manner which is very sensitive and wise regarding creating dependencies. Whereas, most projects that engage or purport to engage in SED aim themselves at problems identified by the external organization (not the people themselves; this is often the first mistake), and generally tend toward solutions that are impossible for the people themselves to implement. There are times, no question, where certain necessary solutions are and will remain beyond the capacity of people to implement, but generally those are not low on Maslow's hierarchy. That is, people everywhere are really pretty smart about their own circumstances, and usually with fairly modest help they can feed and shelter themselves. Where people provide these things themselves, there is an increase in dignity, confidence, and capacity. Where solutions are offered which require them to depend on external charity in a chronic manner (for example) usually things get worse. Well put. Have you read this, by the way? The same gist: Community development http://journeytoforever.org/community.html http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html Why jatropha? Whose choice was it? [... etc.] As I said, excellent questions, but having an impact on the implied decisions is presently above my pay grade. My wisest option, I imagine, is to do the best possible job within the fairly obvious constraints of the situation, and try to make as valuable a contribution as I can. All else being equal, if there are follow-on projects, successful realization of those goals may give me earlier access, increase my responsibility, and make it more possible to be among the voices that determine the shape of critical aspects of those future projects. Amid all the jatropha hype, this report is interesting, I don't know if you saw it, from GRAIN: Jatropha - the agrofuel of the poor? GRAIN July 2007 http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=480 That whole July 2007 issue of Seedling is worth a look: http://www.grain.org/seedling/?type=68 Excellent resources. So, ... [w]hat size would/should [the mixer] be to produce that much biodiesel annually? You could probably set the upper limit of what would qualify as DIY or homebrew or local coop or Appropriate Technology-level biodiesel production at about 1,000 gallons a day, which is about a [third] of what they're planning. They'll be wanting an industrial processor. [...] Yes, I think they are; or at least the plant will be at the small end of industrial. Where can I find a quick transform between gpd/lpd of biodiesel and mixer volume, for batch-process mixers? I don't do that kind of work, only Appropriate Technology. I'll email you offlist though. Second, am I near the mark with suggesting that the project consider producing ethanol (or butanol) rather than purchasing methanol? [...] Nobody does it [...] I strongly suggest you stick with methanol. Good to know. After modest research I had thought so, but I was not sure. Methanol is an affordable input. Glycerol/glycerine would be one by-product at perhaps 10% of the amount of biodiesel (i.e. ~350 tonnes/yr?). Glycerol/glycerine plus soap, and it will take quite a lot of 85% phosphoric acid (not cheap) to separate the two, which would probably be advisable, unless you want a whole lot of
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Keith, Where can I find a quick transform between gpd/lpd of biodiesel and mixer volume, for batch-process mixers? If I understand correctly, it will take perhaps 3 days to produce the biodiesel in the mixer, after which one could (and in a plant this size, would probably) pump the reactant elsewhere to undertake other processes using other equipment: settling, separation, washing, etc. If it takes a day to clean, prepare and load the mixer, and we add a half day to give some slack for... whatever, then the amount of reactant one can process in a year would have to be about 80 times the volume of the mixer. Thus with some idea of the ratio of end-product biodiesel volume to reactant volume, I would be able to estimate the size of the mixer itself. What is that ratio? Keith Addison wrote: The project information I have says that they intend to use a suitable packed column, condenser, and receiver... to recover excess amount of Methanol in the system. These are the options: Reclaiming excess methanol http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#methreclaim As I grow more familiar with the site, I grow more amazed and grateful. Fabulous resource. By the way, on the page http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html, a link to Boston University's site is given for the MSDS for methanol (http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/MSMethanol.html). It's not there, even given that a search of the site using the tools thereon provided demonstrates that it's supposed to be there. In fact, it looks like, for the moment or permanently, /all/ MSDS information (http://www.bu.edu/es/labsafety/ESMSDSs/ESMSDS.html), even as linked from the lab safety page itself, has disappeared. (A pretty good MSDS for methanol is found at http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/M2015.htm, if the BU site does not resolve its problems soon, and a generic resource for MSDS information is at http://www2.hazard.com/msds/.) One can make biogas from methanol, and it therefore seems possible to me based on what little I know about its contents that the whole unseparated glycerol fraction of the trans-esterified result could likely be put in the digester. List members have surmised that, but not confirmed it. I'd be interested to know the results. I'm fuzzy as yet on when we will get a chance to run proof-of-concept tests, but if/when, I'll be in touch. Finally, I mentioned interplanting or intercropping options with Jatropha. I have found some resources regarding this: http://www.jatrophabiodiesel.org/intercropping.php?_divid=menu3 http://www.bioruta.com/JATROPHA/Documentos/Agrotechnology%20of%20Jatropha.pdf The basic story, as far as I yet have found out, appears to be that young Jatropha plants (up to 3 years) need a lot of sunlight to grow, so any other crop interplanted while the Jatropha plants are small, should not shade them. Other than that, I have not found any mention of restrictions, i.e. plants that will not grow when interplanted with Jatropha, or which suppress the growth of Jatropha. I have seen mention of corn, tomatoes, rice, sesame, red peppers, legumes and grasses in general, and many other plants which, it is suggested on various sites, can be used in co-plantings. I suspect that there must be allelopathic interactions between some of these plants and Jatropha, but as yet I have not found careful reports of research which bear on the question. Some work has apparently been done by Pankaj Oudhia (http://www.pankajoudhia.com/resume_pankaj.htm), who appears to have a real aversion to Jatropha. (Based on what he says about himself, I'm not sure I would entirely trust his evaluation as dispassionate.) d. -- David William House The Complete Biogas Handbook |www.completebiogas.com| Make no search for water. But find thirst, And water from the very ground will burst. (Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in /Delight of Hearts/, p. 77) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090103/a2cf70f5/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Hello David Dear list experts, I note a good deal of information in the list about using Jatropha (J. curcas) for biodiesel, and, mindful of repeated admonitions, I've looked for information about the questions I have in the archives, but I've not yet seen answers directly to my questions. My own background is in biogas, and I have only recently started learning about biodiesel and ethanol, so I'm an admixture of knowing and novice. May I ask a few questions? But of course. (And Kieth, no doubt there are many gems in the archives which of which you know, yet which I missed. Please feel free to educate me regarding their nature and location.) I keep finding surprises there. There are 74,000 messages, 498.4 Mb of it, and that's in a compressed format, it's at least 500 books' worth. I've been contacted about a project in south Asia which would involve planting 600 ha to Jatropha, to produce 3,500 tonnes of biodiesel annually. (Based on what I've seen about Jatropha, that may be optimistic for yield, but I'm just presenting the information as given to me.) Obviously then that also means either the use of a good deal of methanol (as presently planned), or (as I have suggested), producing either ethanol or butanol through fermentation and using one or more than one together for separation. The oil cake resulting from oil extraction would be feedstock for a biogas plant. The biodiesel plant is presently being considered as a prototype for a number of such plants, and among the key goals of the project are social and economic development, not merely the production of fuel, and although the project expects a profit, my impression is that things would be operated to produce a balance of outcomes. I quite often hear of projects that sound similar (they often want advice from us). I'm always suspicious of the best crop or the best technology approach (see eg http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous4.html#1511Technology and the poor), and 600-ha monocrop plantations don't have a very good record. Why jatropha? Whose choice was it? On what grounds? Because there's a tax rebate for it in India? (There is still, isn't there?) Because it's hyped such a lot? I'm not being too sceptical, those are common reasons. If social and economic development are truly key goals, then the approach has to be bottom-up, not top-down. How are the local people to benefit? Did anybody ask them yet? There are other choices besides jatropha. The hype says the jatropha seedcake makes a great organic fertiliser, but the truth is that a non-poisonous seedcake that can be fed to livestock is generally much more useful - in fact it can make the difference to whether a project is feasible or not. Generating biogas from the cake first might make better numbers, but, again, how would the local community see it? What oil crops do the local farmers use, or know of? Wouldn't using mixed species something like J. Russell Smith's Tree Crops http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#treecrops but with a bias towards oil production (easily done) be better? Such an agroforestry project, with intercropping, livestock grazing and so on, would seem to offer much more than a monocrop plantation could, and be more likely to be adaptible to local conditions, and the local community. Amid all the jatropha hype, this report is interesting, I don't know if you saw it, from GRAIN: Jatropha - the agrofuel of the poor? GRAIN July 2007 http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=480 That whole July 2007 issue of Seedling is worth a look: http://www.grain.org/seedling/?type=68 So, first question: Although I've reviewed the project overview, which mentions that the biodiesel mixer will be batch loaded, as yet I have no information about the size of the unit. What size would/should it be to produce that much biodiesel annually? You could probably set the upper limit of what would qualify as DIY or homebrew or local coop or Appropriate Technology-level biodiesel production at about 1,000 gallons a day, which is about a tenth of what they're planning. They'll be wanting an industrial processor. If the biodiesel plant is to be a prototype for a number of such plants, they'll also be industrial processors. Second, am I near the mark with suggesting that the project consider producing ethanol (or butanol) rather than purchasing methanol? Certainly it will provide increased challenges to use ethanol, and perhaps even more to use butanol (in either case including adding complexity to the process), but I would think for a plant this large, with good access to land (albeit perhaps marginal land) and given the low labor costs in the area, it may make sense, although one problem may be training personnel. Yes? No? Nobody does it. A few homebrewers use ethanol, and they seem to be the only ones, virtually all or all commercially produced biodiesel is methyl esters, not ethyl esters. The ethanol biodiesel process is not easy, but the main
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Hello again David Re this: You could probably set the upper limit of what would qualify as DIY or homebrew or local coop or Appropriate Technology-level biodiesel production at about 1,000 gallons a day, which is about a tenth of what they're planning. They'll be wanting an industrial processor. If the biodiesel plant is to be a prototype for a number of such plants, they'll also be industrial processors. Sorry, I got the numbers wrong, took gallons for litres - it's about a third of the planned production, not a tenth. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Keith, Keith Addison wrote: Hello David And back at you. Good to hear from you. I've been contacted about a project in south Asia which would involve planting 600 ha to Jatropha, to produce 3,500 tonnes of biodiesel annually Since it bears on some of the points you raised, let me say that my connection to the project is indirect. An organization with which I've done some consulting re biogas has gotten interest from the folks who are developing the biodiesel plant, and so I've been asked to assist with the biogas add-on. As such, even if I had the answers to your [excellent] questions regarding the selection of Jatropha, monocultures, and whether mere jobs count as SED (social and economic development) since the information I have thus far makes only that connection, I neither know nor if I did would it make any difference. My position in the venture is rather humble, as befits my vast gifts (or perhaps they're half-vast). As such, I ask the questions I ask for two reasons. One is that I'm insatiably curious, just like Kipling's elephant child, and the other is that the biogas portion of the project, afterthought that it appears to be, should be designed with an eye towards the realities that are likely, as contrasted to simply what is stated as the plans. I'm always suspicious of the best crop or the best technology approach (see eg http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous4.html#1511Technology and the poor), and 600-ha monocrop plantations don't have a very good record. No question. We've talked about SED previously. My view, boiled down, is that what is needed is to attend to improving human capacity, in a manner which is very sensitive and wise regarding creating dependencies. Whereas, most projects that engage or purport to engage in SED aim themselves at problems identified by the external organization (not the people themselves; this is often the first mistake), and generally tend toward solutions that are impossible for the people themselves to implement. There are times, no question, where certain necessary solutions are and will remain beyond the capacity of people to implement, but generally those are not low on Maslow's hierarchy. That is, people everywhere are really pretty smart about their own circumstances, and usually with fairly modest help they can feed and shelter themselves. Where people provide these things themselves, there is an increase in dignity, confidence, and capacity. Where solutions are offered which require them to depend on external charity in a chronic manner (for example) usually things get worse. Why jatropha? Whose choice was it? [... etc.] As I said, excellent questions, but having an impact on the implied decisions is presently above my pay grade. My wisest option, I imagine, is to do the best possible job within the fairly obvious constraints of the situation, and try to make as valuable a contribution as I can. All else being equal, if there are follow-on projects, successful realization of those goals may give me earlier access, increase my responsibility, and make it more possible to be among the voices that determine the shape of critical aspects of those future projects. Amid all the jatropha hype, this report is interesting, I don't know if you saw it, from GRAIN: Jatropha - the agrofuel of the poor? GRAIN July 2007 http://www.grain.org/seedling/?id=480 That whole July 2007 issue of Seedling is worth a look: http://www.grain.org/seedling/?type=68 Excellent resources. So, ... [w]hat size would/should [the mixer] be to produce that much biodiesel annually? You could probably set the upper limit of what would qualify as DIY or homebrew or local coop or Appropriate Technology-level biodiesel production at about 1,000 gallons a day, which is about a [third] of what they're planning. They'll be wanting an industrial processor. [...] Yes, I think they are; or at least the plant will be at the small end of industrial. Where can I find a quick transform between gpd/lpd of biodiesel and mixer volume, for batch-process mixers? Second, am I near the mark with suggesting that the project consider producing ethanol (or butanol) rather than purchasing methanol? [...] Nobody does it [...] I strongly suggest you stick with methanol. Good to know. After modest research I had thought so, but I was not sure. Glycerol/glycerine would be one by-product at perhaps 10% of the amount of biodiesel (i.e. ~350 tonnes/yr?). Glycerol/glycerine plus soap, and it will take quite a lot of 85% phosphoric acid (not cheap) to separate the two, which would probably be advisable, unless you want a whole lot of powerful soap in the biogas digester, not sure it would like that. If the feedstock is mostly oil cake (small particle size), it might be possible to deal with some of the soap-type contaminants, which would tend to increase problems with scum.
[Biofuel] Jatropha and ethanol
Dear list experts, I note a good deal of information in the list about using Jatropha (J. curcas) for biodiesel, and, mindful of repeated admonitions, I've looked for information about the questions I have in the archives, but I've not yet seen answers directly to my questions. My own background is in biogas, and I have only recently started learning about biodiesel and ethanol, so I'm an admixture of knowing and novice. May I ask a few questions? (And Kieth, no doubt there are many gems in the archives which of which you know, yet which I missed. Please feel free to educate me regarding their nature and location.) I've been contacted about a project in south Asia which would involve planting 600 ha to Jatropha, to produce 3,500 tonnes of biodiesel annually. (Based on what I've seen about Jatropha, that may be optimistic for yield, but I'm just presenting the information as given to me.) Obviously then that also means either the use of a good deal of methanol (as presently planned), or (as I have suggested), producing either ethanol or butanol through fermentation and using one or more than one together for separation. The oil cake resulting from oil extraction would be feedstock for a biogas plant. The biodiesel plant is presently being considered as a prototype for a number of such plants, and among the key goals of the project are social and economic development, not merely the production of fuel, and although the project expects a profit, my impression is that things would be operated to produce a balance of outcomes. So, first question: Although I've reviewed the project overview, which mentions that the biodiesel mixer will be batch loaded, as yet I have no information about the size of the unit. What size would/should it be to produce that much biodiesel annually? Second, am I near the mark with suggesting that the project consider producing ethanol (or butanol) rather than purchasing methanol? Certainly it will provide increased challenges to use ethanol, and perhaps even more to use butanol (in either case including adding complexity to the process), but I would think for a plant this large, with good access to land (albeit perhaps marginal land) and given the low labor costs in the area, it may make sense, although one problem may be training personnel. Yes? No? The Jatropha will almost certainly be planted in rows, ~3x2m per plant, and it appears that the project developers are not considering using irrigation. The area in which the plants will be growing has a rainy season (June-September; 130cm rainfall), and a hot, usually dry season (April-May, sometimes 40 deg C). What plants might be considered to assist in producing ethanol/butanol, if they were interplanted with the Jatropha? Glycerol/glycerine would be one by-product at perhaps 10% of the amount of biodiesel (i.e. ~350 tonnes/yr?). I know that depending on how one handles this waste stream, it can be burned (at high temp), composted, used in soap-making, used to supplement the oil cake for biogas production, used in Clostridium fermentation to produce ABE, used to dry ethanol (and butanol?), et al. Are there other options? Among those possibilities, which might best serve the mix of goals? Lastly, the information I have says that Furthermore, the process to manufacture biodiesel... has no waste at all [excepting the oil cake and glycerol]. The process employed has no emissions and absolutely no effluent treatment. I don't see how that can be correct. Can that be the case? d. -- David William House The Complete Biogas Handbook |www.completebiogas.com| Make no search for water. But find thirst, And water from the very ground will burst. (Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in /Delight of Hearts/, p. 77) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20090101/00e0f327/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
