Re: [biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
At 05:42 PM 7/4/2002 +, you wrote: Thinking back, I recall that for quite awhile we were trying something we'd read about to help keep the goats warm in Winter. The idea was to just keep putting down fresh bedding, not removing the old or the manure. This would compost and the heat would be a great help for the animals, then in Spring you haul it all out. Sounded great to us, we always felt sorry for the animals in Winter, most of our chickens lost their combs and wattles to freezing, the barn cats usually had shortened ears, etc. You'd think that would be the perfect setup, really for good composting -- plenty of manure, plenty of urine to for both moisture and more nitrogen, and the hay for bedding. We were quite disappointed, however, as there was never any noticable composting going on until late Spring. Otherwise it seemed pretty much frozen solid. Never saw any steam rising from it, never felt warm at all, and I spent plenty of time on my knees on it, milking the goats twice a day. That sounds like Joel Salatin's deep bedding idea in his pastured poultry and beef books. We saw his farm, he puts corn in the bedding layers to be aerated by rooting pigs in the spring. ( I imagine goats would just try to eat the corn as you put it down.) It ends up being four feet tall by spring The chicken hoop house he had was very warm and dry- they sprayed it down to dampen the dust. But it also had a plastic greenhouse- like exterior. Caroline [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ztNCyD/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA
Kim wrote: As I saw the practice in Alberta, Canada, it took a couple of years to build up sufficient layers to keep the coop warm. they also do it in Sweden, and start with a 4 ft deep layer of bedding. Grahams wrote: That sounds like Joel Salatin's deep bedding idea in his pastured poultry and beef books. We saw his farm, he puts corn in the bedding layers to be aerated by rooting pigs in the spring. ( I imagine goats would just try to eat the corn as you put it down.) It ends up being four feet tall by spring The chicken hoop house he had was very warm and dry- they sprayed it down to dampen the dust. But it also had a plastic greenhouse- like exterior. MH wrote: Is the bedding - hay or straw bales so as to gain footing ? `` Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ztNCyD/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA
MH wrote: Kim wrote: As I saw the practice in Alberta, Canada, it took a couple of years to build up sufficient layers to keep the coop warm. they also do it in Sweden, and start with a 4 ft deep layer of bedding. Grahams wrote: That sounds like Joel Salatin's deep bedding idea in his pastured poultry and beef books. We saw his farm, he puts corn in the bedding layers to be aerated by rooting pigs in the spring. ( I imagine goats would just try to eat the corn as you put it down.) It ends up being four feet tall by spring The chicken hoop house he had was very warm and dry- they sprayed it down to dampen the dust. But it also had a plastic greenhouse- like exterior. MH wrote: Is the bedding - hay or straw bales so as to gain footing ? MH wrote: Hay of straw's R value, IF i remember correctly, is about R1 when wet, R2 when dry, per inch/2.5 cm. `` Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ztNCyD/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA
As I understand the process, the bales are broken open and the straw scattered, then tamped, then another layer added, then the process repeated until it is 4' deep. The idea is to keep the ammonia from harming the animals as it turns the bottom layers to compost. You keep adding to the top, for a few years anyway, until the whole thing becomes too thick, then you remove the composted soil at the bottom and start again. I have a friend that grew up with the system and he said the barn always smelled sweet and clean. Kim MH wrote: Kim wrote: As I saw the practice in Alberta, Canada, it took a couple of years to build up sufficient layers to keep the coop warm. they also do it in Sweden, and start with a 4 ft deep layer of bedding. Grahams wrote: That sounds like Joel Salatin's deep bedding idea in his pastured poultry and beef books. We saw his farm, he puts corn in the bedding layers to be aerated by rooting pigs in the spring. ( I imagine goats would just try to eat the corn as you put it down.) It ends up being four feet tall by spring The chicken hoop house he had was very warm and dry- they sprayed it down to dampen the dust. But it also had a plastic greenhouse- like exterior. MH wrote: Is the bedding - hay or straw bales so as to gain footing ? `` Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pp91HA/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
Hi again Harmon --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Harmon I should mention too that the guy at MREA, whose been composting humanure for decades, said turning is a bad idea, it loses heat, and, for humanure you want as much heat as possible. He also said let it go a year, make the piles big (pallet size), and just build another pile when the first if full, rather than trying to hurry it along. Obviously that doesn't work for apartment dwellers. 8-) Turning doesn't lose heat, you only turn it once it's cooled anyway. It may or may not be necessary - read Will Brinton's study that I posted previously: Sustainability of Modern Composting: Intensification Versus Costs Quality: http://www.woodsend.org/sustain.pdf A lot of people turn it quite often -- thus the rotating barrel compost makers you see. I don't have any time for those. He was saying that you'll lose the optimum heat if you do that. In the rotating barrels perhaps, though nothing that happens in those is ideal anyway, but otherwise not necessarily. Still, I don't recommend excessive turning. Once is enough, when it cools, and that depends on your system, it may not be necessary at all. As for time length, he was talking about the whole sequence. Start the pile with some straw or leaves or hay on a pallet to allow air under it, add your daily bucket of crap, cover that with straw, it will take at least six months to fill the heap (pallets for sides, right?), depending upon the size of your family, maybe even a year. This is just a pile for dealing with humanure, not your main garden compost pile, as a lot of people aren't going to want to put it on the veggie crops. Perfectly safe, if you do it right. Entire populations have used the sanitizing effects of topsoil for this, and grown their crops on it, through many generations, without ill-effects, and still do. Hot-composting makes sure of that, and improves the effectiveness of the product. So I think your guy's being too squeaky-clean. No need for a separate system for humanure, process it along with everything else, kitchen scraps, yard wastes, garden wastes, everything. You can still build it up bit by bit as it comes, when it gets a bit of bulk it will fire up and keep going as you add new stuff. Finally, when it's full, leave it till the heat dies down, then turn it (best to turn with this kind of pile), add a bit of water if necessary, it'll heat up again, when it cools down leave it to cure for a few weeks and then you can safely use it anywhere. The Gromor guys seemed to be doing frequent turning and watering to keep the heat down, but that's not at all necessary, IMO, and Brinton's, and it may be counter-productive. Which is not to say it won't work anyway. I don't think humanure needs any more heat than any other kind of composting. http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/howardAT/ATapp3.html An Agricultural Testament - Albert Howard - Appendix C The Manufacture of Humus from the Wastes of the Town and the Village Van Vuren's pioneering work in South Africa confirms this, along with Wylie's in England, and Gotaas's work all over the place (not online yet). My own work in England also confirmed it. It's just thermophilic composting like any other. C:N ratio, moisture content, aeration apply the same as with any other materials. It'll go well above 65 deg C and stay there awhile, finished in a few weeks, cure it a few more, and that's it. That's not hurrying it along, that's just how it works. No need to leave it for a year, it won't accomplish anything, and unless you store it well it will lose quality in that time. If the actual composting process is taking that long, then it's not properly thermophilic, and not ideal for humanure. Poore's and Moule's experiments with topsoil sanitation were very interesting, and indeed many millions (billions?) of people have done it that way for a long, long time, but I'd want proper hot composting first - not just for sanitation, also the results are better. Hot composting is quick. Yes, if you have a lot, but for individuals or small families it's just not going to work that way, the pile won't be big enough. I know, I've tried it in WI, it froze solid in the winter. I was talking about a small composting box I had on the balcony when we were in Tokyo. I had a 14x14x12 wooden box, only 1.36 cubic feet, composting kitchen wastes, which stayed above 60 deg C (140F) for about 10 days or more, freeze or shine - weather made no difference. Heavy snows during some of that time. The box wasn't insulated, just plain pallet planks with a lid. I did say that was pushing it, we usually recommend not smaller than 8 cub ft, which will certainly work, and is fine for a small household. I've been working with composting systems for householders and kitchen wastes and so on for more than 20 years
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perfectly safe, if you do it right. Entire populations have used the sanitizing effects of topsoil for this, and grown their crops on it, through many generations, without ill-effects, and still do. Hot-composting makes sure of that, and improves the effectiveness of the product. I think the problem here is it just gets too cold in Winter -- when you put the bucket of kitchen waste out on the heap, it freezes solid before it has a chance to start working. Even here in central WI it does that, in northern MN where we did a lot more composting, it was frozen solid from about Nov. 1 -- mid-May, just like the ground. I suppose if you had a large batch of materials mixed up properly with the correct ratios, it might have a chance, but you can't do that with the daily wastes. And really, my compost piles here are more worm-bins than real compost, I don't think they ever heat up much. Not enough nitrogen for one thing, here in town. And when we had animals up in MN, we always just put manure straight on the garden. I wish the humanure book had been out then, we really had a problem in the Winter. Our outhouse would always freeze, as we got a lot of heavy rain in Fall, and it was heavy clay soil, so the outhouse hole would fill to ground level with water, then freeze solid. So you'd have a very small space left which filled rapidly. Several Winters we ended up having to just use a chamber pot and empty it into a 55gal drum, and although we added leaves and wood ashes in there to try to get it working, it just froze solid too. When it doesn't get above zero F. for weeks at a time, things don't get a chance to start breaking down and creating any heat. Up there you'd find piles of snow in the woods well into June, and the lakes never opened up before mid-May, and the Forestry wouldn't allow road work until June. Somewhere I've seen plans for a solar heated outhouse, and solar heated compost bin, which would probably be the ticket. I tried, as I said, making compost in a plastic barrel in the greenhouse this last Winter, but it just didn't get enough air, I think, too much water, even tho I added dry leaves, and not enough nitrogen. I'll try something different next year. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ztNCyD/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
nomadicism... - Original Message - From: harmonseaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 8:12 AM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perfectly safe, if you do it right. Entire populations have used the sanitizing effects of topsoil for this, and grown their crops on it, through many generations, without ill-effects, and still do. Hot-composting makes sure of that, and improves the effectiveness of the product. I think the problem here is it just gets too cold in Winter -- when you put the bucket of kitchen waste out on the heap, it freezes solid before it has a chance to start working. Even here in central WI it does that, in northern MN where we did a lot more composting, it was frozen solid from about Nov. 1 -- mid-May, just like the ground. I suppose if you had a large batch of materials mixed up properly with the correct ratios, it might have a chance, but you can't do that with the daily wastes. And really, my compost piles here are more worm-bins than real compost, I don't think they ever heat up much. Not enough nitrogen for one thing, here in town. And when we had animals up in MN, we always just put manure straight on the garden. I wish the humanure book had been out then, we really had a problem in the Winter. Our outhouse would always freeze, as we got a lot of heavy rain in Fall, and it was heavy clay soil, so the outhouse hole would fill to ground level with water, then freeze solid. So you'd have a very small space left which filled rapidly. Several Winters we ended up having to just use a chamber pot and empty it into a 55gal drum, and although we added leaves and wood ashes in there to try to get it working, it just froze solid too. When it doesn't get above zero F. for weeks at a time, things don't get a chance to start breaking down and creating any heat. Up there you'd find piles of snow in the woods well into June, and the lakes never opened up before mid-May, and the Forestry wouldn't allow road work until June. Somewhere I've seen plans for a solar heated outhouse, and solar heated compost bin, which would probably be the ticket. I tried, as I said, making compost in a plastic barrel in the greenhouse this last Winter, but it just didn't get enough air, I think, too much water, even tho I added dry leaves, and not enough nitrogen. I'll try something different next year. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pp91HA/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
Thinking back, I recall that for quite awhile we were trying something we'd read about to help keep the goats warm in Winter. The idea was to just keep putting down fresh bedding, not removing the old or the manure. This would compost and the heat would be a great help for the animals, then in Spring you haul it all out. Sounded great to us, we always felt sorry for the animals in Winter, most of our chickens lost their combs and wattles to freezing, the barn cats usually had shortened ears, etc. You'd think that would be the perfect setup, really for good composting -- plenty of manure, plenty of urine to for both moisture and more nitrogen, and the hay for bedding. We were quite disappointed, however, as there was never any noticable composting going on until late Spring. Otherwise it seemed pretty much frozen solid. Never saw any steam rising from it, never felt warm at all, and I spent plenty of time on my knees on it, milking the goats twice a day. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pp91HA/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
Harmon wrote: Thinking back, I recall that for quite awhile we were trying something we'd read about to help keep the goats warm in Winter. The idea was to just keep putting down fresh bedding, not removing the old or the manure. This would compost and the heat would be a great help for the animals, then in Spring you haul it all out. Sounded great to us, we always felt sorry for the animals in Winter, most of our chickens lost their combs and wattles to freezing, the barn cats usually had shortened ears, etc. You'd think that would be the perfect setup, really for good composting -- plenty of manure, plenty of urine to for both moisture and more nitrogen, and the hay for bedding. We were quite disappointed, however, as there was never any noticable composting going on until late Spring. Otherwise it seemed pretty much frozen solid. Never saw any steam rising from it, never felt warm at all, and I spent plenty of time on my knees on it, milking the goats twice a day. Trampled flat, no aeration, possibly too much moisture in the urine anyway... might manage to get a start in the spring, yes, in spite of all that. Or whatever, but hot composting most certainly can and does happen in freezing weather. It's more exacting, but it works. I've got photographs of people composting in the winter snow in Canada, and in Sweden. I've done it myself. Not magic, not a trick, it's a simple formula, if you follow it, it works. In cities, dry brown stuff (carbon) might be a problem, though always a solvable one, but I've never been short of nitrogen, not even in an inner city flat with no balcony, let alone a garden. In extremis you can use what English organic gardeners call HCA - household compost activator, aka urine. No smell with hot compost. Not even with leafmould: The decaying leaf medium breaks it down almost instantly so that there is never any odor, and germ survival in material such as this has been shown to be practically nil. http://journeytoforever.org/garden_con-mexico.html Organic food production in the slums of Mexico City By the way, wood might be better than a plastic barrel. Wood breathes, while with plastic water condenses on the inside walls so the edge of the stuff gets too wet and dies, which can kill the whole process, especially if the air supply isn't adequate (from underneath, as you said). http://journeytoforever.org/compost_make.html Making compost Regards Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pp91HA/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Keith, Hi Hoagy Thanks for this, nice... Could be quicker, could be hotter too, only 120-130F. Still, that's okay, they're doing good. Makes you think, though, eh? - all that free heat going to waste. Wonder why they don't use it? I don't know. Whadaya suggest. The Mother Earth News used it to warm water in the cooler times of the year if memory serves me. That's not really a good idea though, if you want good compost. Or, rather, you need to decide which is more important, getting some heat from it or getting and thorough and relatively quick compost. Taking heat from the pile can lower temps enough that some of the most important bacteria can't function. In northern climes especially, you're more in need of adding heat to the pile some of the year. Or composting inside, which I tried for the first time last year but it went anerobic. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those interested, this beautiful book is available online at: http://www.weblife.org/humanure/default.html __ramjee. Hello Ramjee Very interesting too how Joseph Jenkins sells hard-copies of his book AND makes a free version available online at the same website. Would that more publishers realized the two are complementary, and that giving it away for nothing doesn't eat into hard-copy sales as alleged. Quite the opposite. More humanure resources here, by the way: http://journeytoforever.org/compost_humanure.html regards Keith There was a quite interesting workshop on composting toilets at the MREA energy fair. They were selling the Humanure book, essentially took the 5 gallon bucket and compost with straw approach, building a specific compost pile for the humanure out with a pallet frame and base, plus hardware cloth. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
I should mention too that the guy at MREA, whose been composting humanure for decades, said turning is a bad idea, it loses heat, and, for humanure you want as much heat as possible. He also said let it go a year, make the piles big (pallet size), and just build another pile when the first if full, rather than trying to hurry it along. Obviously that doesn't work for apartment dwellers. 8-) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
Hi Harmon I should mention too that the guy at MREA, whose been composting humanure for decades, said turning is a bad idea, it loses heat, and, for humanure you want as much heat as possible. He also said let it go a year, make the piles big (pallet size), and just build another pile when the first if full, rather than trying to hurry it along. Obviously that doesn't work for apartment dwellers. 8-) Turning doesn't lose heat, you only turn it once it's cooled anyway. It may or may not be necessary - read Will Brinton's study that I posted previously: Sustainability of Modern Composting: Intensification Versus Costs Quality: http://www.woodsend.org/sustain.pdf The Gromor guys seemed to be doing frequent turning and watering to keep the heat down, but that's not at all necessary, IMO, and Brinton's, and it may be counter-productive. Which is not to say it won't work anyway. I don't think humanure needs any more heat than any other kind of composting. http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/howardAT/ATapp3.html An Agricultural Testament - Albert Howard - Appendix C The Manufacture of Humus from the Wastes of the Town and the Village Van Vuren's pioneering work in South Africa confirms this, along with Wylie's in England, and Gotaas's work all over the place (not online yet). My own work in England also confirmed it. It's just thermophilic composting like any other. C:N ratio, moisture content, aeration apply the same as with any other materials. It'll go well above 65 deg C and stay there awhile, finished in a few weeks, cure it a few more, and that's it. That's not hurrying it along, that's just how it works. No need to leave it for a year, it won't accomplish anything, and unless you store it well it will lose quality in that time. If the actual composting process is taking that long, then it's not properly thermophilic, and not ideal for humanure. Poore's and Moule's experiments with topsoil sanitation were very interesting, and indeed many millions (billions?) of people have done it that way for a long, long time, but I'd want proper hot composting first - not just for sanitation, also the results are better. Hot composting is quick. Regards Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
Harmon wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], MH [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Keith, Hi Hoagy Thanks for this, nice... Could be quicker, could be hotter too, only 120-130F. Still, that's okay, they're doing good. Makes you think, though, eh? - all that free heat going to waste. Wonder why they don't use it? I don't know. Whadaya suggest. The Mother Earth News used it to warm water in the cooler times of the year if memory serves me. That's not really a good idea though, if you want good compost. Or, rather, you need to decide which is more important, getting some heat from it or getting and thorough and relatively quick compost. Taking heat from the pile can lower temps enough that some of the most important bacteria can't function. In northern climes especially, you're more in need of adding heat to the pile some of the year. Or composting inside, which I tried for the first time last year but it went anerobic. I don't think you should ever need to add heat to a compost pile if it's properly assembled. Minus 15 deg C hasn't slowed my compost down. The process is too fierce for a simple copper coil to make any noticeable difference. Anaerobic = too much moisture/not enough air. Go easy on the water, or don't use any - if it runs out of water you can always break it up, sprinkle more water on it, mix thoroughly and rebuild, but if there's too much water it'll turn into an intractable sludge that's hard to rescue. Adding lots of dry stuff might revive it, if you manage to keep the C:N ratio right (dry stuff usually lacks N). Or it might not. It might seem too dry when you build it at first, but much of the moisture's inside the plant cells and only gets released once the process starts and the cells break down. All that's if you're building it in one go. If you're doing it bit by bit as the wastes become available, you have to balance it bit by bit too. Kitchen wastes, plant wastes generally, are much too moist, you have to add dry stuff at the same time. Using worms can be a lot easier for wastes that come in dribs and drabs. No free heat though. Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Farmers Turn To Composting, Georgia, USA sulfur
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Harmon I should mention too that the guy at MREA, whose been composting humanure for decades, said turning is a bad idea, it loses heat, and, for humanure you want as much heat as possible. He also said let it go a year, make the piles big (pallet size), and just build another pile when the first if full, rather than trying to hurry it along. Obviously that doesn't work for apartment dwellers. 8-) Turning doesn't lose heat, you only turn it once it's cooled anyway. It may or may not be necessary - read Will Brinton's study that I posted previously: Sustainability of Modern Composting: Intensification Versus Costs Quality: http://www.woodsend.org/sustain.pdf A lot of people turn it quite often -- thus the rotating barrel compost makers you see. He was saying that you'll lose the optimum heat if you do that. As for time length, he was talking about the whole sequence. Start the pile with some straw or leaves or hay on a pallet to allow air under it, add your daily bucket of crap, cover that with straw, it will take at least six months to fill the heap (pallets for sides, right?), depending upon the size of your family, maybe even a year. This is just a pile for dealing with humanure, not your main garden compost pile, as a lot of people aren't going to want to put it on the veggie crops. The Gromor guys seemed to be doing frequent turning and watering to keep the heat down, but that's not at all necessary, IMO, and Brinton's, and it may be counter-productive. Which is not to say it won't work anyway. I don't think humanure needs any more heat than any other kind of composting. http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/howardAT/ATapp3.html An Agricultural Testament - Albert Howard - Appendix C The Manufacture of Humus from the Wastes of the Town and the Village Van Vuren's pioneering work in South Africa confirms this, along with Wylie's in England, and Gotaas's work all over the place (not online yet). My own work in England also confirmed it. It's just thermophilic composting like any other. C:N ratio, moisture content, aeration apply the same as with any other materials. It'll go well above 65 deg C and stay there awhile, finished in a few weeks, cure it a few more, and that's it. That's not hurrying it along, that's just how it works. No need to leave it for a year, it won't accomplish anything, and unless you store it well it will lose quality in that time. If the actual composting process is taking that long, then it's not properly thermophilic, and not ideal for humanure. Poore's and Moule's experiments with topsoil sanitation were very interesting, and indeed many millions (billions?) of people have done it that way for a long, long time, but I'd want proper hot composting first - not just for sanitation, also the results are better. Hot composting is quick. Yes, if you have a lot, but for individuals or small families it's just not going to work that way, the pile won't be big enough. I know, I've tried it in WI, it froze solid in the winter. I think his point was pretty good advice -- you aren't going to get enough compost to really matter from your own feces, and it isn't really worth the risk of continuing parasite, viral, or bacterial infection to use the little bit you get on veggies, especially root crops. It's primarily a good way to stop wasting all the water you flush everytime you go. And it's great for the flowers. On a large scale, that's different, although with municipal sludge you've got serious problems with heavy metals, so I sure wouldn't put that on my land. Best use for that is gasification. Regards Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
