Re: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith)
Do you know the year in which ASTM D5761 was issued? Thx Chistian - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 1:54 PM Subject: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith) Flash Point: Above 118¼C (ASTM PS121 specifies higher than 100¼C, so I didn«t go much further) The new ASTM D-6751 standard specifies 130 deg C, I don't know why. Germany and Czech specify 110, all others 100. Maybe it's all just politics, the rapeseed vs soy game. Christian and Keith, As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.21: The flash point for biodiesel is used as the mechanism to limit the level of unreacted alcohol remaining in the finished fuel. As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.22: The flash point specification for biodiesel is also of importance in connection with legal requirements and safety precautions involved in fuel handling and storage, and is normally specified to meet insurance and fire regulations. Paragraph X1.23 discusses wide variability with the accepted test method. This resulted in 130*C being chosen to insure that a low end flash point of 100*C is never compromised. Improvements to testing are being evaluated, which could result in a revised standard at some point in the future. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Dr_ObB/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith)
D-6751 was published in April, 2002. - Original Message - From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 8:46 PM Subject: Re: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith) Do you know the year in which ASTM D5761 was issued? Thx Chistian - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 1:54 PM Subject: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith) Flash Point: Above 118¼C (ASTM PS121 specifies higher than 100¼C, so I didn«t go much further) The new ASTM D-6751 standard specifies 130 deg C, I don't know why. Germany and Czech specify 110, all others 100. Maybe it's all just politics, the rapeseed vs soy game. Christian and Keith, As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.21: The flash point for biodiesel is used as the mechanism to limit the level of unreacted alcohol remaining in the finished fuel. As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.22: The flash point specification for biodiesel is also of importance in connection with legal requirements and safety precautions involved in fuel handling and storage, and is normally specified to meet insurance and fire regulations. Paragraph X1.23 discusses wide variability with the accepted test method. This resulted in 130*C being chosen to insure that a low end flash point of 100*C is never compromised. Improvements to testing are being evaluated, which could result in a revised standard at some point in the future. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ _ _ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Dr_ObB/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] water (Keith)
Dear Keith, I«d find it very interesting (so as to update my thesis), to get the specifications of ASTM«s new D6751. Please let me know if you have them, and if so, please pass them on. They«d really come in handy. Best wishes, Christian - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] water Hi Christian Hi Keith, I«m answering this letter separate from Ken«s answer. Regarding I'm really not sure at this stage whether that's good advice or not though., my intention is not to freak everyone out. Oh, I meant my advice might not be good, not yours. I simply wouldn«t want anybody to ruin a 2,5lt Grand Cherokee motor by fooling around. No, nor any motor. Water, as you«ve mentioned, can bring some benefits in combustion, and often in chimeneys in industries (for example, when burning hydrocarbons) steam is injected into the flame area to produce a cleaner combustion. I don«t quite understand how, but it supposedly does. In a motor, excess water is said to be a probable cause of rust, and water-traps do exist in diesel engines for some reason. Free water in dinodiesel is one thing, an emulsified water-dino blend seems to be another, and dissolved water in biod should be more like the blend (with its advantages). At least I think so. More in my other message on this. I«m not quite familiar wth the related problems, and I«ve found Camillo Holecek«s quote most interesting. I«ll try to dig into the subject a bit more. Why not ask Camillo? He's head of Energea in Austria. Here's his address: Camillo Holecek [EMAIL PROTECTED] LAB RESULTS were as followed: Flash Point: Above 118¼C (ASTM PS121 specifies higher than 100¼C, so I didn«t go much further) The new ASTM D-6751 standard specifies 130 deg C, I don't know why. Germany and Czech specify 110, all others 100. Maybe it's all just politics, the rapeseed vs soy game. Kinematic Viscosity @ 40¼C: 3.654 cSt Density: 0.8797 g/cm3 Corrosion: (heating to 100¼C over half an hour with inmersed metal strips) Aluminum Strip: Slight change in opacity, barely noticeable. Copper strip: No observed change Tin strip: No observed change Iron strip: No observed change Cloud Point: 9¼C to 10¼C Pour Point: -4.7¼C Carbon Residue: 0.0711% (ASTM D189) Water Sediment: 1000-2000 ppm Cloud point and pour point a bit high, everything else is just fine. And the water probably fits in with what Camillo says. Well done Christian. It's great we can make good fuel like this eh? No need to be Exxon-Mobil! IR Spectrometry: I sent it in attached to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thankyou, received. All best Keith Best wishes, Christian - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 7:00 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] water Hi Christian Well, it's interesting. Do those maximums for water content in the standards make any sense? Will water in the fuel damage the engine? First, this is what Camillo Holecek said about it recently: The Austrian Standard ONORM C 1191 said only: No water should settle out (i.e. about 1200ppm water would stay in solution in our FAME.) All others bother about 500 and even 300 ppm (DIN), which is nonsense IMO, as FAME is hygroscopic and will attract humidity from air until it is back to 1200ppm. Means, in your car you will have anything but 300ppm. (FAME being Fatty Acid Methyl Esters, ie biodiesel.) Meanwhile quite a lot of people are trying to figure ways of getting MORE water into the fuel. See this, for instance: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=835list=BIOFUELS-BIZ Also this: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/analysis/emulsion/emulbibl.pdf And this: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/dc/reference/refer.html There seem to be combustion efficiency gains (with misters into the air intake) and emissions reductions (with fuel emulsions), but I can't figure which is better and why you wouldn't get both effects either way. What's the difference between a water mist injected with the air vs water in the fuel that gets misted anyway when it's injected with the rest of the fuel? Anway, until we settle it one way or the other, if ever, maybe don't worry too much about a little excess water. I'm really not sure at this stage whether that's good advice or not though. What d you think? Christian, what were your lab results, if you don't mind telling us? Regards Keith Hi all. I ran some lab tests on my BD (from M. Pelly«s recipe), including IR spectrometry, Flash point, Pour point, Cloud point, Density, Viscosity, Residual Carbon and free water sediment. My findings showed quite a good BD, except for the water. ASTM requires 0,05 % vol max of water. I
ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith)
Flash Point: Above 118¼C (ASTM PS121 specifies higher than 100¼C, so I didn«t go much further) The new ASTM D-6751 standard specifies 130 deg C, I don't know why. Germany and Czech specify 110, all others 100. Maybe it's all just politics, the rapeseed vs soy game. Christian and Keith, As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.21: The flash point for biodiesel is used as the mechanism to limit the level of unreacted alcohol remaining in the finished fuel. As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.22: The flash point specification for biodiesel is also of importance in connection with legal requirements and safety precautions involved in fuel handling and storage, and is normally specified to meet insurance and fire regulations. Paragraph X1.23 discusses wide variability with the accepted test method. This resulted in 130*C being chosen to insure that a low end flash point of 100*C is never compromised. Improvements to testing are being evaluated, which could result in a revised standard at some point in the future. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith)
Todd, I«ve just asked Keith, but I just as well might ask you. Could you send me the BD specs as per ASTM D6751? I«m still working with PS121 (which I have), but it seems some values have been revised. Thanks, Christian - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 1:54 PM Subject: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith) Flash Point: Above 118¼C (ASTM PS121 specifies higher than 100¼C, so I didn«t go much further) The new ASTM D-6751 standard specifies 130 deg C, I don't know why. Germany and Czech specify 110, all others 100. Maybe it's all just politics, the rapeseed vs soy game. Christian and Keith, As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.21: The flash point for biodiesel is used as the mechanism to limit the level of unreacted alcohol remaining in the finished fuel. As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.22: The flash point specification for biodiesel is also of importance in connection with legal requirements and safety precautions involved in fuel handling and storage, and is normally specified to meet insurance and fire regulations. Paragraph X1.23 discusses wide variability with the accepted test method. This resulted in 130*C being chosen to insure that a low end flash point of 100*C is never compromised. Improvements to testing are being evaluated, which could result in a revised standard at some point in the future. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ __ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith)
Christian, Here are the specs. Flash point (closed cup): 130*C minimum (150*C average) Water and sediment: 0.050 % by volume, maximum Kinematic viscosity at 40*C: 1.9 - 6.0 mm2/s Sulfated ash: 0.020 % by mass, maximum Sulfur: 0.05 % by mass, maximum Cetane: 47 minimum Carbon residue: 0.050 % by mass, maximum Total glycerine (free glycerine and unconverted glycerides combined): 0.240 % by mass, maximum Phosphorous content: 0.001 % by mass, maximum - Original Message - From: Christian [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 1:04 PM Subject: Re: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith) Todd, I«ve just asked Keith, but I just as well might ask you. Could you send me the BD specs as per ASTM D6751? I«m still working with PS121 (which I have), but it seems some values have been revised. Thanks, Christian - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 1:54 PM Subject: ASTM Flash point was Re: [biofuel] water (Keith) Flash Point: Above 118¼C (ASTM PS121 specifies higher than 100¼C, so I didn«t go much further) The new ASTM D-6751 standard specifies 130 deg C, I don't know why. Germany and Czech specify 110, all others 100. Maybe it's all just politics, the rapeseed vs soy game. Christian and Keith, As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.21: The flash point for biodiesel is used as the mechanism to limit the level of unreacted alcohol remaining in the finished fuel. As per ASTM D-6751, paragraph X1.22: The flash point specification for biodiesel is also of importance in connection with legal requirements and safety precautions involved in fuel handling and storage, and is normally specified to meet insurance and fire regulations. Paragraph X1.23 discusses wide variability with the accepted test method. This resulted in 130*C being chosen to insure that a low end flash point of 100*C is never compromised. Improvements to testing are being evaluated, which could result in a revised standard at some point in the future. Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ _ _ mensaje enviado desde http://www.iespana.es emails (pop)-paginas web (espacio ilimitado)-agenda-favoritos (bookmarks)-foros -Chat Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
