Re: [biofuel] From the UK:
Keith, Before this goes too much further someone should get to the top of the Ford heirachy and without mentioning this Volvo scenario someone should find out Fords Official policy as regards Biodiesel. Either way the biod industry stands to benefit in the longrun. B.r., David And other such stories - Ford to build hybrid-electric SUV, Ford paying loadsamoney in environmental grants all over the world, and so on. But I haven't seen any Ford statement on biodiesel. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK:
David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Keith, Before this goes too much further someone should get to the top of the Ford heirachy and without mentioning this Volvo scenario someone should find out Fords Official policy as regards Biodiesel. Either way the biod industry stands to benefit in the longrun. B.r., David You're right, David. I'll think on it. Anyone got a hotline to Henry? Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ And other such stories - Ford to build hybrid-electric SUV, Ford paying loadsamoney in environmental grants all over the world, and so on. But I haven't seen any Ford statement on biodiesel. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK:
I have been trying to get a reaction from Ford UK for nearly a year, now, with no success. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK:
Holy Cow!! How could Volvo say that? They should know better, if everything you guys at the bio-board have said... I've known the company to make a stand for the environment at every turn, from the early cold-weather research to the lambda-sond to the LPG... Frankly, I cannot see VOLVO, THE Volvo, missing something so obvious as the advantages as bio-d without them being correct- Everyone knows that they're owned by Ford now, right? So, you can figure Volvo=Ford, and if ford hates bio-d, so does Volvo. (Does it?) I hope to hell there's a reason to hope that Volvo is wrong, and that bio-d really is the miracle I was used to viewing it as. Hail Jendenuvaden! -JIM Bio-diesel is 10 times more carcinogenic than low sulphur diesel, exhaust fumes smell like oily chips and running costs are inflated, says Volvo. Responding to a report by the British Association of Bio Fuels, which promoted the fuel as the 'fuel of the future' Volvo claims Bio-diesel is dirtier, smellier and less fuel efficient than low sulphur diesel, and engines are more costly to maintain. Despite the move by the Government in the recent Budget to make the cost of Bio-diesel 20p per litre less than low sulphur diesel, Volvo believes that fleets should think carefully before encouraging its drivers to top up with Bio-diesel. The most alarming statistic from recent Swedish research says Bio- diesel emissions are 10 times more carcinogenic than standard low sulphur diesel used in Sweden. Tailpipe emissions of 'smog forming' oxides of nitrogen can be up to 40 per cent higher than diesel engines. Combine that with a 10 per cent drop in performance and fuel consumption when running on pure rape seed oil, the fact your car exhaust will constantly smell like oily chips and the fuel's poor low temperature performance and the future of Bio-diesel looks grim, a Volvo spokesman said. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Headers Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: fromÊ rly-ye02.mx.aol.com (rly-ye02.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.199]) by air-ye04.mail.aol.com (v77_r1.37) with ESMTP; Fri, 04 May 2001 02:03:59 2000 Received: fromÊ hk.egroups.com (hk.egroups.com [208.50.99.220]) by rly-ye02.mx.aol.com (v77_r1.36) with ESMTP; Fri, 04 May 2001 02:03:52 2000 X-eGroups-Return: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from [10.1.4.55] by hk.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2001 11:37:55 - X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Apparently-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_1_2); 3 May 2001 11:37:52 - Received: (qmail 19375 invoked from network); 3 May 2001 11:37:52 - Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 3 May 2001 11:37:52 - Received: from unknown (HELO jj.egroups.com) (10.1.10.91) by mta1 with SMTP; 3 May 2001 11:37:52 - X-eGroups-Return: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from [10.1.2.74] by jj.egroups.com with NNFMP; 03 May 2001 11:37:50 - To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] User-Agent: eGroups-EW/0.82 X-Mailer: eGroups Message Poster X-Originating-IP: 63.106.164.110 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MIME-Version: 1.0 Mailing-List: list biofuel@yahoogroups.com; contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivered-To: mailing list biofuel@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 11:37:50 - Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] From the UK: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK:
Holy Cow!! How could Volvo say that? They should know better, if everything you guys at the bio-board have said... I've known the company to make a stand for the environment at every turn, from the early cold-weather research to the lambda-sond to the LPG... Frankly, I cannot see VOLVO, THE Volvo, missing something so obvious as the advantages as bio-d without them being correct- Everyone knows that they're owned by Ford now, right? So, you can figure Volvo=Ford, and if ford hates bio-d, so does Volvo. (Does it?) I hope to hell there's a reason to hope that Volvo is wrong, and that bio-d really is the miracle I was used to viewing it as. Hail Jendenuvaden! -JIM Rest assured, Volvo's wrong, biodiesel's right. Doesn't follow that Ford has the same policy, however. See: 5 May 2001 - Subject: [biofuel] Ford seeks environmental leadership role 5 May 2001 - Subject: [biofuel] Blue oval aims to be green And other such stories - Ford to build hybrid-electric SUV, Ford paying loadsamoney in environmental grants all over the world, and so on. But I haven't seen any Ford statement on biodiesel. And then there's also this: 5 May 2001 - Subject: [biofuel] Volvo drops 5% on Q1 loss woes Please check out the pros and cons in the material in this thread, and then get onto the Volvo contacts Terry provided, make your opinion know to them. Another good reason for making it rough on Volvo - put a stop to this BS before the contagion spreads to Ford and they start making the same claims, and then others too. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Bio-diesel is 10 times more carcinogenic than low sulphur diesel, exhaust fumes smell like oily chips and running costs are inflated, says Volvo. snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK:
Following Tims lead on this, this news is disheartening. Can anyone dismiss these findings? - Original Message - From: Tim Zarbo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] From the UK: Is this corroborated by any other studies anywhere else? -TZ - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 7:37 AM Subject: [biofuel] From the UK: Bio-diesel is 10 times more carcinogenic than low sulphur diesel, exhaust fumes smell like oily chips and running costs are inflated, says Volvo. Responding to a report by the British Association of Bio Fuels, which promoted the fuel as the 'fuel of the future' Volvo claims Bio-diesel is dirtier, smellier and less fuel efficient than low sulphur diesel, and engines are more costly to maintain. Despite the move by the Government in the recent Budget to make the cost of Bio-diesel 20p per litre less than low sulphur diesel, Volvo believes that fleets should think carefully before encouraging its drivers to top up with Bio-diesel. The most alarming statistic from recent Swedish research says Bio- diesel emissions are 10 times more carcinogenic than standard low sulphur diesel used in Sweden. Tailpipe emissions of 'smog forming' oxides of nitrogen can be up to 40 per cent higher than diesel engines. Combine that with a 10 per cent drop in performance and fuel consumption when running on pure rape seed oil, the fact your car exhaust will constantly smell like oily chips and the fuel's poor low temperature performance and the future of Bio-diesel looks grim, a Volvo spokesman said. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.250 / Virus Database: 123 - Release Date: 4/18/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bio-diesel is 10 times more carcinogenic than low sulphur diesel, exhaust fumes smell like oily chips and running costs are inflated, says Volvo. Responding to a report by the British Association of Bio Fuels, which promoted the fuel as the 'fuel of the future' Volvo claims Bio-diesel is dirtier, smellier and less fuel efficient than low sulphur diesel, and engines are more costly to maintain. Despite the move by the Government in the recent Budget to make the cost of Bio-diesel 20p per litre less than low sulphur diesel, Volvo believes that fleets should think carefully before encouraging its drivers to top up with Bio-diesel. The most alarming statistic from recent Swedish research says Bio- diesel emissions are 10 times more carcinogenic than standard low sulphur diesel used in Sweden. Tailpipe emissions of 'smog forming' oxides of nitrogen can be up to 40 per cent higher than diesel engines. Combine that with a 10 per cent drop in performance and fuel consumption when running on pure rape seed oil, the fact your car exhaust will constantly smell like oily chips and the fuel's poor low temperature performance and the future of Bio-diesel looks grim, a Volvo spokesman said. Damn - this Jim Olssen BS again. Aren't we ever going to get rid of this junk science? That's what happens when you burn the stuff in a frying pan, not quite the same thing as under compression in a diesel motor. But Jim just won't see it that way (maybe because it might fry his career - well, so what, who'd cry?). It caused a big fuss at the time, when part of the report of Olssen's study was reported by Reuters. He blamed Reuters, but they weren't at fault, it was the study itself that was junk. Terry De Winne was involved in trying to get the guy to see some reason. This is what he said later: ... point out that a basic principle of common sense (a commodity also applied to science experiments) dictates that you cannot compare like with unlike. I drew Jim Olssen's attention to nitro-glycerine (what not to do with your excess glycerol) and suggested that I should visit him, bringing with me two flasks of the substance. We would carry out two experiments. In the first, I would pour the NG on to his bench and set light to it. He would see that it burnt, giving off a black, oil smoke. In the second, I would drop the flask on to the floor. If we survived, we would then compare the smoke emissions of the two experiments and see how different they were. The disturbing thing was, he took me seriously! Sums it up, I think! And no, Tim, not corraborated, unless you too would like to burn some rapeseed oil in a frying pan. I'll forward this to Jenna Higgins at the NBB, who'll take some action (I've done this before...). Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK: Volvo/Chalmers/Study Misrepresented
This link explains some of it. The scientist's work was fine, but was not done in an engine, so the emissions results are not the same as from a diesel engine. Volvo provides some funding for projects at the centre where the thesis originated (Chalmers Institute in Sweden). What their reasoning is I do not know, perhaps they are heavily invested in other technology? (natural gas, catalysts as an end-of-pipe solution, smog-eating radiators, etc.). Reuters muddied the waters in the way the results were reported and now it is a classic scare story distilled down in people's minds to biodiesel 10 times more carcinogenic than diesel, not correct. Or as Og says to Thag: Biodiesel BAD, diesel GOOD! (Where is Gary Larsen when we need him?) One (or a few) substances, produced at low temperature combustion, that are indeed carcinogenic, and produced at 10x level as compared to petrodiesel, in a lab test, does not equate to a cancer risk. What OTHER substances, found in petrodieselexhaust, DO pose a known cancer risk? Let's see comparisons on that basis. Risk assessment based on exposure required to produce an effect (cancer) and a determination of the severity of that effect if present would be in order before any cancer risk could be pronounced - for workers standing next to lab ovens or similar devices that were burning RME. Even that determination if it were made would not be applicable to exhaust emissions because of differing combustion characteristics inside a diesel engine. http://www.folkecenter.dk/plant-oil/pressr_rapeseed_18012001.htm The fuel standards exist in Austria, Germany, the USA, other countires likely have their versions as well. Also soon in Canada, I understand. Best, Ed B. From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 01:29:44 +1200 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] From the UK: Shows what a bit of bad publicity can achieve. If people look back and remember this group discussed a very adverse report that was put out by some so called Swedish scientist two or three months ago. Volvo have probably picked up on this and continued down the same path. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK:
Thanks Keith :) - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] From the UK: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bio-diesel is 10 times more carcinogenic than low sulphur diesel, exhaust fumes smell like oily chips and running costs are inflated, says Volvo. Responding to a report by the British Association of Bio Fuels, which promoted the fuel as the 'fuel of the future' Volvo claims Bio-diesel is dirtier, smellier and less fuel efficient than low sulphur diesel, and engines are more costly to maintain. Despite the move by the Government in the recent Budget to make the cost of Bio-diesel 20p per litre less than low sulphur diesel, Volvo believes that fleets should think carefully before encouraging its drivers to top up with Bio-diesel. The most alarming statistic from recent Swedish research says Bio- diesel emissions are 10 times more carcinogenic than standard low sulphur diesel used in Sweden. Tailpipe emissions of 'smog forming' oxides of nitrogen can be up to 40 per cent higher than diesel engines. Combine that with a 10 per cent drop in performance and fuel consumption when running on pure rape seed oil, the fact your car exhaust will constantly smell like oily chips and the fuel's poor low temperature performance and the future of Bio-diesel looks grim, a Volvo spokesman said. Damn - this Jim Olssen BS again. Aren't we ever going to get rid of this junk science? That's what happens when you burn the stuff in a frying pan, not quite the same thing as under compression in a diesel motor. But Jim just won't see it that way (maybe because it might fry his career - well, so what, who'd cry?). It caused a big fuss at the time, when part of the report of Olssen's study was reported by Reuters. He blamed Reuters, but they weren't at fault, it was the study itself that was junk. Terry De Winne was involved in trying to get the guy to see some reason. This is what he said later: ... point out that a basic principle of common sense (a commodity also applied to science experiments) dictates that you cannot compare like with unlike. I drew Jim Olssen's attention to nitro-glycerine (what not to do with your excess glycerol) and suggested that I should visit him, bringing with me two flasks of the substance. We would carry out two experiments. In the first, I would pour the NG on to his bench and set light to it. He would see that it burnt, giving off a black, oil smoke. In the second, I would drop the flask on to the floor. If we survived, we would then compare the smoke emissions of the two experiments and see how different they were. The disturbing thing was, he took me seriously! Sums it up, I think! And no, Tim, not corraborated, unless you too would like to burn some rapeseed oil in a frying pan. I'll forward this to Jenna Higgins at the NBB, who'll take some action (I've done this before...). Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK:
Keith and all: Disseminate this, from Chalmers, to everyone you ever come across. Cross post it, print it, put it on your web site, link, issue a press release shout it from the rooftops. It'll do more good than ranting about Olsson. Then maybe we can all put this behind us once and for all. And somebody locate that Volvo guy and make him a crash test dummy for Volvo's next ad campaign. http://www.chalmers.se/Nyheter/2001/vecka08/rapsolja.html Ed B. --- L Damn - this Jim Olssen BS again. Aren't we ever going to get rid of this junk science? That's what happens when you burn the stuff in a frying pan, not quite the same thing as under compression in a diesel motor. But Jim just won't see it that way (maybe because it might fry his career - well, so what, who'd cry?). It caused a big fuss at the time, when part of the report of Olssen's study was reported by Reuters. He blamed Reuters, but they weren't at fault, it was the study itself that was junk. I'll forward this to Jenna Higgins at the NBB, who'll take some action (I've done this before...). Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK: Volvo/Chalmers/Study Misrepresented
Hello Ed This link explains some of it. The scientist's work was fine, but was not done in an engine, so the emissions results are not the same as from a diesel engine. The trouble is that he insists they are the same. Volvo provides some funding for projects at the centre where the thesis originated (Chalmers Institute in Sweden). What their reasoning is I do not know, perhaps they are heavily invested in other technology? (natural gas, catalysts as an end-of-pipe solution, smog-eating radiators, etc.). Reuters muddied the waters in the way the results were reported and now it is a classic scare story distilled down in people's minds to biodiesel 10 times more carcinogenic than diesel, not correct. Or as Og says to Thag: Biodiesel BAD, diesel GOOD! (Where is Gary Larsen when we need him?) One (or a few) substances, produced at low temperature combustion, that are indeed carcinogenic, and produced at 10x level as compared to petrodiesel, in a lab test, does not equate to a cancer risk. What OTHER substances, found in petrodieselexhaust, DO pose a known cancer risk? Let's see comparisons on that basis. According to an EPA study completed at the University of California at Davis, the use of pure biodiesel instead of petroleum-based diesel fuel could offer a 93.6% reduction in cancer risks from emissions exposure. I've tried hard to find this study report. It's quoted by various industry people, and one of them promised to send it to me but never did. Risk assessment based on exposure required to produce an effect (cancer) and a determination of the severity of that effect if present would be in order before any cancer risk could be pronounced - for workers standing next to lab ovens or similar devices that were burning RME. Even that determination if it were made would not be applicable to exhaust emissions because of differing combustion characteristics inside a diesel engine. http://www.folkecenter.dk/plant-oil/pressr_rapeseed_18012001.htm That's a good ref, well done! Thanks! Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ The fuel standards exist in Austria, Germany, the USA, other countires likely have their versions as well. Also soon in Canada, I understand. Best, Ed B. From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 01:29:44 +1200 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] From the UK: Shows what a bit of bad publicity can achieve. If people look back and remember this group discussed a very adverse report that was put out by some so called Swedish scientist two or three months ago. Volvo have probably picked up on this and continued down the same path. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK:
Keith and all: Disseminate this, from Chalmers, to everyone you ever come across. Cross post it, print it, put it on your web site, link, issue a press release shout it from the rooftops. It'll do more good than ranting about Olsson. Then maybe we can all put this behind us once and for all. And somebody locate that Volvo guy and make him a crash test dummy for Volvo's next ad campaign. http://www.chalmers.se/Nyheter/2001/vecka08/rapsolja.html Ed B. My word, Ed, you are doing well! Jenna Higgens at the NBB just sent me the same thing, but without the link. Here's her message: Keith, Thanks for the update. Chalmers U. made a statement about the study. Have you seen it? It is attached. Maybe someone in the U.K. should get it to Volvo. Jenna Higgins Director of Communications National Biodiesel Board 3337-A Emerald Lane P.O. Box 104898 Jefferson City, MO 65110-4898 (800) 841-5849 http://www.biodiesel.org I hope someone takes her up on that, and I think on your suggestion for a movie role for the Volvo guy too. :-) Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ --- L Damn - this Jim Olssen BS again. Aren't we ever going to get rid of this junk science? That's what happens when you burn the stuff in a frying pan, not quite the same thing as under compression in a diesel motor. But Jim just won't see it that way (maybe because it might fry his career - well, so what, who'd cry?). It caused a big fuss at the time, when part of the report of Olssen's study was reported by Reuters. He blamed Reuters, but they weren't at fault, it was the study itself that was junk. I'll forward this to Jenna Higgins at the NBB, who'll take some action (I've done this before...). Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bio-diesel is 10 times more carcinogenic than low sulphur diesel, exhaust fumes smell like oily chips and running costs are inflated, says Volvo. Responding to a report by the British Association of Bio Fuels, which promoted the fuel as the 'fuel of the future' Volvo claims Bio-diesel is dirtier, smellier and less fuel efficient than low sulphur diesel, and engines are more costly to maintain. Despite the move by the Government in the recent Budget to make the cost of Bio-diesel 20p per litre less than low sulphur diesel, Volvo believes that fleets should think carefully before encouraging its drivers to top up with Bio-diesel. The most alarming statistic from recent Swedish research says Bio- diesel emissions are 10 times more carcinogenic than standard low sulphur diesel used in Sweden. Tailpipe emissions of 'smog forming' oxides of nitrogen can be up to 40 per cent higher than diesel engines. Combine that with a 10 per cent drop in performance and fuel consumption when running on pure rape seed oil, the fact your car exhaust will constantly smell like oily chips and the fuel's poor low temperature performance and the future of Bio-diesel looks grim, a Volvo spokesman said. Do you have a source for this? It'd be useful to show what we're rebutting. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK:
Well Keith, I don't know...DO I want to fry rape oil in a pan? -- Until I found joined this forum, I had never heard of Rape. But from the little info I have found it's in the same family (brassica) as Mustard and Canola-- both of which are edible, and I find quite tasty (especially the German mustards with the horseradish 'ZING' ;) As for that feller(Jim Olessen) who likes non standard methods of 'scientific' experimentation, I'll pay for the Nitro if you have some available to ship to him for the second half of your proposed experiment.(It WOUILD be polite however to send along a short note declining his invitation to participate in said experiment, due to unavoidable scheduling conflicts...you know...the fact that you had planned to live a while longer yet and just can't attend the experiment. ;) Cheers! -TZ PS: CAN you make Nitroglycerin from the residue of BioD production??(Feel free to reply directly to my email address above if you'd rather not add such info to the forum :) - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] From the UK: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bio-diesel is 10 times more carcinogenic than low sulphur diesel, exhaust fumes smell like oily chips and running costs are inflated, says Volvo. Responding to a report by the British Association of Bio Fuels, which promoted the fuel as the 'fuel of the future' Volvo claims Bio-diesel is dirtier, smellier and less fuel efficient than low sulphur diesel, and engines are more costly to maintain. Despite the move by the Government in the recent Budget to make the cost of Bio-diesel 20p per litre less than low sulphur diesel, Volvo believes that fleets should think carefully before encouraging its drivers to top up with Bio-diesel. The most alarming statistic from recent Swedish research says Bio- diesel emissions are 10 times more carcinogenic than standard low sulphur diesel used in Sweden. Tailpipe emissions of 'smog forming' oxides of nitrogen can be up to 40 per cent higher than diesel engines. Combine that with a 10 per cent drop in performance and fuel consumption when running on pure rape seed oil, the fact your car exhaust will constantly smell like oily chips and the fuel's poor low temperature performance and the future of Bio-diesel looks grim, a Volvo spokesman said. Damn - this Jim Olssen BS again. Aren't we ever going to get rid of this junk science? That's what happens when you burn the stuff in a frying pan, not quite the same thing as under compression in a diesel motor. But Jim just won't see it that way (maybe because it might fry his career - well, so what, who'd cry?). It caused a big fuss at the time, when part of the report of Olssen's study was reported by Reuters. He blamed Reuters, but they weren't at fault, it was the study itself that was junk. Terry De Winne was involved in trying to get the guy to see some reason. This is what he said later: ... point out that a basic principle of common sense (a commodity also applied to science experiments) dictates that you cannot compare like with unlike. I drew Jim Olssen's attention to nitro-glycerine (what not to do with your excess glycerol) and suggested that I should visit him, bringing with me two flasks of the substance. We would carry out two experiments. In the first, I would pour the NG on to his bench and set light to it. He would see that it burnt, giving off a black, oil smoke. In the second, I would drop the flask on to the floor. If we survived, we would then compare the smoke emissions of the two experiments and see how different they were. The disturbing thing was, he took me seriously! Sums it up, I think! And no, Tim, not corraborated, unless you too would like to burn some rapeseed oil in a frying pan. I'll forward this to Jenna Higgins at the NBB, who'll take some action (I've done this before...). Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.250 / Virus Database: 123 - Release Date: 4/18/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK: Volvo/Chalmers/Study Misrepresented
Thanks Ed, Yeah they are here in the most technologically advanced countries alright but in a lot of countries they dont yet exist. In 5 years they will probably exist almost everywhere but what worries me a little bit is that in the meantime quite a bit of harm can be done to this developing industry by bad manufacturing processes and adverse publicity as a result. B.r., David The fuel standards exist in Austria, Germany, the USA, other countires likely have their versions as well. Also soon in Canada, I understand. Best, Ed B. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK - natural gas reserves
Now, here's an interesting one! I have been asked to appear before the Energy Committee of the Northern Ireland Assembly as a sort of expert* witness to comment on the publication - Vision 2010 - Energy Action Plan. I found it full of bull about the benefits of natural gas, which rather got up my nose, so I decided to do some digging. I tried to find gas statistics on DTI website. Nothing. I e'd a contact address given, then went hunting on the web. On a American site I found UK statistics - UK proven gas reserves - 26.7 trillion cu ft Annual consumption (1999) - 3.259 trillion cu ft Divide one by the other and you get 8 years supply guaranteed. So I rang the DTI statistics guy the following day - Yes, those figures are right, he says, but there is more to be found - probables and possibles. Then I had a reply from DTI Oil and Gas Directorate to my e - Proven plus probable reserves - 1.195 billion cu metres Annual consumption (2000) - 97 BCM Divide etc gives 12 years supply I know from a DETR renewables report that UK has no plans to replace any nuclear capacity, other than with gas and highly clean coal burner generators. A successor to NFFO (renewables) has yet to be announced by MAFF. There is no follow-on to ARBRE biomass plant in the pipeline. What the friggin hell is going on? More to the point - does it apply in your country, too? *Definition of expert - X is the unknown quantity a spurt is a drip under pressure Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK:
Hello Tim Well Keith, I don't know...DO I want to fry rape oil in a pan? -- Until I found joined this forum, I had never heard of Rape. But from the little info I have found it's in the same family (brassica) as Mustard and Canola-- both of which are edible, and I find quite tasty (especially the German mustards with the horseradish 'ZING' ;) :-) Rapeseed is the main European oilseed crop. Canola is the Canadian variety. There's lots about it in the archives. Anyway, I think he wasn't just frying it, he was burning it - you know, frying it to death and beyond. Not someone you'd want to have in your kitchen. As for that feller(Jim Olessen) who likes non standard methods of 'scientific' experimentation, I'll pay for the Nitro if you have some available to ship to him for the second half of your proposed experiment.(It WOUILD be polite however to send along a short note declining his invitation to participate in said experiment, due to unavoidable scheduling conflicts...you know...the fact that you had planned to live a while longer yet and just can't attend the experiment. ;) Terry's idea, not mine... but I'd be an interested bystander (at ba considerable difference). Cheers! -TZ PS: CAN you make Nitroglycerin from the residue of BioD production??(Feel free to reply directly to my email address above if you'd rather not add such info to the forum :) I guess you can, probably quite easy to make it - not quite so easy to make it without killing yourself though. Aleks provides some cautions in the acid-base 2-stage process: DON'T use nitric acid!! There's quite a lot of info on NitroG here - did you know it's a love potion? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] From the UK: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bio-diesel is 10 times more carcinogenic than low sulphur diesel, exhaust fumes smell like oily chips and running costs are inflated, says Volvo. Responding to a report by the British Association of Bio Fuels, which promoted the fuel as the 'fuel of the future' Volvo claims Bio-diesel is dirtier, smellier and less fuel efficient than low sulphur diesel, and engines are more costly to maintain. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK:
Is this corroborated by any other studies anywhere else? -TZ - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 7:37 AM Subject: [biofuel] From the UK: Bio-diesel is 10 times more carcinogenic than low sulphur diesel, exhaust fumes smell like oily chips and running costs are inflated, says Volvo. Responding to a report by the British Association of Bio Fuels, which promoted the fuel as the 'fuel of the future' Volvo claims Bio-diesel is dirtier, smellier and less fuel efficient than low sulphur diesel, and engines are more costly to maintain. Despite the move by the Government in the recent Budget to make the cost of Bio-diesel 20p per litre less than low sulphur diesel, Volvo believes that fleets should think carefully before encouraging its drivers to top up with Bio-diesel. The most alarming statistic from recent Swedish research says Bio- diesel emissions are 10 times more carcinogenic than standard low sulphur diesel used in Sweden. Tailpipe emissions of 'smog forming' oxides of nitrogen can be up to 40 per cent higher than diesel engines. Combine that with a 10 per cent drop in performance and fuel consumption when running on pure rape seed oil, the fact your car exhaust will constantly smell like oily chips and the fuel's poor low temperature performance and the future of Bio-diesel looks grim, a Volvo spokesman said. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.250 / Virus Database: 123 - Release Date: 4/18/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] From the UK:
Shows what a bit of bad publicity can achieve. If people look back and remember this group discussed a very adverse report that was put out by some so called Swedish scientist two or three months ago. Volvo have probably picked up on this and continued down the same path. Undoubtedly there is probably one or two similar reports around the world. I think the risk this emerging industry runs is one of lack of standards and varying manufacturing standards and practices around the world. This is bound to continue for quite some time as the knowledge base grows and expands. B.r., David - Original Message - From: Tim Zarbo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 11:52 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] From the UK: Is this corroborated by any other studies anywhere else? -TZ - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 7:37 AM Subject: [biofuel] From the UK: Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
