Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
If our planet were the size of a basketball, the thickness of the breathable atmosphere would be no more than one quarter of a millimeter, a barely noticeable 6-mile-high smear over the surface of the ball. The Earth is a ball of rock covered by a thin smear of atmosphere and ocean.-- James L. Grubb book review @ www.amazon.com of Almost Everyone's Guide to Science : The Universe, Life and Everything by John Mary Gribbin After reading - General: Elephant Grass and Coppiced Willow (thank you Todd) http://beyond2000.com/news/Feb_01/story_1032.html found a book review (below) that lead to the authors website with the following excerpts; Entitled: Living with the greenhouse effect by John Mary Gribbin [date unknown to me] A great deal of what you read and hear about the so-called greenhouse effect is either exaggerated, or misrepresented, or both. But the basis for concern about uncomfortably rapid global warming occurring within our own lifetimes and those of our children rests on just three facts, and a reasonable inference. [with a brief plain speak message in-between] Should we care? That's really another story, but if nothing is done to curb the increasing buildup of greenhouse gases, the models suggest that temperatures will rise by a further 1.5 oC by the year 2030, bringing flooding of coastal regions around the world as sea levels rise, diseases normally associated with lower latitudes spreading out from the tropics, drought in the US Midwest (still the most important grain producing region in the world) and other climate changes. You may or may not feel that this is a price worth paying (by our children) for our own reliance on fossil fuels; but there is enough evidence to persuade an unbiased observer that it really is going to happen. http://www.biols.susx.ac.uk/home/John_Gribbin/environ.htm If moisture levels gradually recede - humus content in soil could be beneficial absorbing morning dew providing a highway for biological activity. I'm not sure how important this is to the US Senate's Energy Policy or anybody else but thought others might find this interesting to some ¼. The author, a scientist, is reported to have written over 30* science books.*http://beyond2000.com/news/Oct_99/story_286.html Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Ken, Isn't Wake Island a mid pacific US military installation? I think they refuel ships and jets mainly so the figures could be skewed as they sometimes are. I have heard arguments that the US per capita energy use is similarly skewed since it does not take into account the huge petroleum use that is needed to raise and tranport crops which then end up in other countries without the energy use being attributed to those end use countries. Dana --- Ken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where is wake island and what are the people doing there, powering a death ray? Ken C. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Where is wake island and what are the people doing there, powering a death ray? Ken C. At 01:05 AM 2/25/02 -0600, you wrote: Located a list of about 220 countries[?] indicating BTU use per person. World Per Capita Total Primary Energy Consumption, 1980-1999 (Million Btu) Location1999 ÷÷÷ Africa 15 Far East and Oceania 29 Central and South America 50 Middle East 101 Eastern Europe and Former U.S.S.R.125 Western Europe 148 North America289 ÷÷÷ World Total Per Capita 64 Extremes and a few in between Country 1999 ÷÷÷ Chad 0,3 Cambodia 0,6 Afghanistan 1 India 12 China 25 Cuba 35 Brazil 52 Mexico63 Portugal 102 Hong Kong 108 Spain 133 Italy 140 Korea, South 157 Taiwan 159 UK 168 Germany 170 Japan 172 France174 Russia 177 Saudi Arabia208 Australia 250 Kuwait324 Singapore342 USA356 Canada 411 Norway425 Luxembourg 437 Iceland 454 Netherlands Antilles 726 Qatar 996 Gibraltar 1452 Virgin Islands, US2303 Wake Island 62292 Data above - from this link requires MS Excel or Viewer Direct Link http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tablee1c.xls Found at http://eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/contentsnjava.html In the article below it mentioned, Europeans routinely use 30 percent less energy per unit of gross national product than Americans do. Could anyone point me to a website(s) that could elaborate or compare the differences. Thank you. This should get you started: US Energy Information Administration http://www.eia.doe.gov/ Thank you Keith Regards Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5027 TOMPAINE.com - Book Excerpt Making Something From Nothing The Quixotic Logic Of The Bush Energy Plan, And How To Fix It Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
A HREF=http://www.buck.com/cntry-cd/factbook/wq.htm;The World Factbook page on Wake Island/A [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
http://www.nrdc.org/globalwarming/carbon/kocinx.asp Kingpins of Carbon - How Fossil Fuel Producers Contribute to Global Warming Table of Contents Terrific report, thank you. Added CO2 (carbon dioxide) to the BTU table to get some prospective. Located a list of about 220 countries[?] indicating BTU use per person. BTU Table E1c World Per Capita Total Primary Energy Consumption, 1980-1999 (Million Btu) I'm assuming, and maybe wrong, the definition of Table E1c - Primary energy consumption reported in this table includes petroleum, dry natural gas, coal, net hydroelectric, nuclear, geothermal, solar, wind, and wood and waste electric power, as reported in Tables E2-E7. Primary energy consumption for the United States also includes: [more] requires Adobe Acrobat Reader http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/ieapdf/te_01.pdf CO2 Per Capita (Person) Total Carbon Dioxide Emissions from the Consumption of Petroleum, Natural Gas, and Coal, and the Flaring of Natural Gas All Countries, 1980-1999 (Metric Tons of Carbon Equivalent per Person) Location 1999 Btu CO2 ÷÷÷ Africa15 0,3 Far East and Oceania 29 0,5 Central and South America 50 0,6 Middle East 101 1,8 Eastern Europe and Former U.S.S.R. 125 2,0 Western Europe 148 2,1 North America 289 4,4 ÷÷÷ World Total Per Capita 64 1,0 Fossil Fuels world CO2 emissions per capita was 1,1 from 1980-1997 then dropped to 1,0 1998-1999 about a 9 percent decline per person but population more than made up for it. Using 'World Total Per Capita' average of 64 Btu and 1,0 CO2 to formulate a Ratio column to view country/world average. e.g. Mexico 63 Btu divide by 64 equals 1,0 CO2 is average. e.g. USA 356 Btu divide by 64 equals 5,6 CO2 is average. e.g. Sweden 249 Btu divide by 64 equals 3,9 CO2 is below average CO2 emissions by 54% or -54%. Extremes and a few in between Country 1999 Btu CO2 Ratio ÷ Chad 0,3 0,0 Cambodia 0,6 0,0 Afghanistan 1 0,0 India 12 0,2 0,2 China 25 0,5 Cuba 35 0,7 Brazil 52 0,5 0,8 -38% Mexico63 1,0 1,0 Portugal 102 1,7 Hong Kong 108 1,9 Spain 133 2,1 2,1 Italy 140 2,1 2,2 -5% Korea, South 157 2,3 2,5 -8% Taiwan 159 2,9 UK 168 2,6 2,6 Germany 170 2,8 Japan 172 2,42,7 -11% France174 1,82,7 -33% Russia 177 2,7 Saudi Arabia208 3,5 Sweden 249 1,8 3,9 -54% Australia 250 5,0 Kuwait324 5,8 Singapore342 6,4 USA356 5,6 5,6 Canada 4114,9 6,4 -23% Norway4252,7 6,6 -59% Luxembourg 4375,4 6,8 -21% Iceland 4543,0 7,1 -58% Netherlands Antilles726 14,8 Qatar996 14,2 15,6 -9% Gibraltar 1452 30,4 Virgin Islands, US230344,0 Wake Island 622921167,5 [?] Data above - from this link requires MS Excel or Viewer Direct Link http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tablee1c.xls for BTUs Direct Link http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tableh1c.xls for CO2 Found at http://eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/contentsnjava.html Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4. No Minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Located a list of about 220 countries[?] indicating BTU use per person. World Per Capita Total Primary Energy Consumption, 1980-1999 (Million Btu) Location1999 ÷÷÷ Africa 15 Far East and Oceania 29 Central and South America 50 Middle East 101 Eastern Europe and Former U.S.S.R.125 Western Europe 148 North America289 ÷÷÷ World Total Per Capita 64 Extremes and a few in between Country 1999 ÷÷÷ Chad 0,3 Cambodia 0,6 Afghanistan 1 India 12 China 25 Cuba 35 Brazil 52 Mexico63 Portugal 102 Hong Kong 108 Spain 133 Italy 140 Korea, South 157 Taiwan 159 UK 168 Germany 170 Japan 172 France174 Russia 177 Saudi Arabia208 Australia 250 Kuwait324 Singapore342 USA356 Canada 411 Norway425 Luxembourg 437 Iceland 454 Netherlands Antilles 726 Qatar 996 Gibraltar 1452 Virgin Islands, US2303 Wake Island 62292 Data above - from this link requires MS Excel or Viewer Direct Link http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/international/iealf/tablee1c.xls Found at http://eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/contentsnjava.html In the article below it mentioned, Europeans routinely use 30 percent less energy per unit of gross national product than Americans do. Could anyone point me to a website(s) that could elaborate or compare the differences. Thank you. This should get you started: US Energy Information Administration http://www.eia.doe.gov/ Thank you Keith Regards Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5027 TOMPAINE.com - Book Excerpt Making Something From Nothing The Quixotic Logic Of The Bush Energy Plan, And How To Fix It Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Trains - was Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
It is unclear to me the meaning. Average BTU consumed Per Passenger mile by mode of travel: Analogy follows. SUV: 4,591 Air: 4,123 Bus: 3,729 Car: 3,672 Train: 2,138 Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics http://199.79.179.77/btsprod/nts/Ch4_web/4-20.htm (notes from site above) NOTES: To calculate total Btu, multiply fuel consumed (see tables 4-21, 4-22, 4-24, 4-25) by 135,000 Btu/gallon for air carrier, 125,000 Btu/gallon for passenger car, other 2-axle 4-tire vehicle, and motorcycle, and 138,700 Btu/gallon for transit motor bus and Amtrak. MH wrote: What I'm trying to understand is mile-per-gallon per-passenger per-vehicle Perhaps I should restate that - What I am trying to understand is BTUs per-passenger, per-mile, per-vehicle. NOTE: all mpg rounded off SUV: 125,000 Btu/gallon divide by 4,591 BTUs Per Passenger mile = 27 mpg (*) SUV: 16 mpg (and other Light Trucks - pkups, vans) 125,000 Btu/gallon divide by 4,591 BTUs Per Passenger mile = 27 mpg divide by 1.64 passengers per vehicle equals 16 mpg 4,591 BTUs divide by 1.64 persons equals 2,799 BTUs per-person per-mile. Air:135,000 Btu/gallon divide by 4,123 BTUs Per Passenger mile = 33 mpg Bus: 138,700 Btu/gallon divide by 3,729 BTUs Per Passenger mile = 37 mpg Car:125,000 Btu/gallon divide by 3,672 BTUs Per Passenger mile = 34 mpg (*) Car: 21 mpg 125,000 Btu/gallon divide by 3,672 BTUs Per Passenger mile = 34 mpg divide by 1.59 passengers per vehicle equals 21 mpg 3,672 BTUs divide by 1.59 persons equals 2,309 BTUs per-person per-mile. Train: 138,700 Btu/gallon divide by 2,138 BTUs Per Passenger mile = 65 mpg Lupo: 138,700 divide by 100 mpg = 1,387 BTUs Per Passenger mile (*) Lupo: 100 mpg or 872 BTUs per-person per-mile 138,700 Btu/gallon divide by 1,387 BTUs Per Passenger mile equals 100 mpg 1,387 BTUs divide by 1.59 persons equals 872 BTUs per-person per-mile. (*) Passenger-miles are derived by multiplying vehicle-miles by an average occupancy rate for that vehicle type based on data provided by the Federal Highway Administration, Nationwide Personal Transportation Survey, 1977, 1983, 1995. Average vehicle occupancy rates are as follows: [1995] passenger car 1.59 other 2-axle 4-tire vehicle 1.64 http://199.79.179.77/btsprod/nts/Ch4_web/4-22.htm ~ Average Fuel Efficiency of U.S. Passenger Cars and Light Trucks (mpg) [1980, 1985, 1990-1999] USA http://199.79.179.77/btsprod/nts/Ch4_web/4-23.htm Table 1.10 Motor Vehicle Mileage, Fuel Consumption, and Fuel Rates [1973 - 2000] USA Passenger Cars Vans, Pickup Trucks, and Sport Utility Vehicles Trucks All Motor Vehicles http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/mer/txt/mer1-10 Table 2.8 Motor Vehicle Mileage, Fuel Consumption, and Fuel Rates, [1949-1999] USA http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/tab0208.htm www.eia.doe.gov Thank you for the link. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Trains - was Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
- Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:57 AM Subject: Trains - was Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing Here's something someone sent me about the London Underground - the Metro. Very interesting Keith, the Biology teachers at school should be able to use this. Gives a whole new meaning to Public Transport. At least in your own vehicle you are mainly responsible for the bacterial flora and have probably developed a resistance to it. Regards, Paul Gobert. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
I know the chimney needs hot gases to work, Since it is reduced density generating the needed lift it seems to me you could use a well insulated stack and extract the heat at the last moment. If you want to discuss it on micro cogen it is fine with me. Cogen is cogen. I just advocate diesel because it is off the shelf and top efficiency. I suppose there would be lots of problems powering a Brayton cycle with wood. Charcoal might be ok but I think wood has lots of goop problems. I suppose your wood heated closed cycle is a reasonable compromise. Kirk - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2002 10:52 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing Keith Addison wrote: (this is actually robert's comment from a previous post) I'm working on a cogeneration scheme for my wood stove to increase the efficiency of my biofuel resource. (And no, it's not going very well!!!) to which Keith responded: Do you know Kirk's group? [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Micro_Cogeneration Yes. I'm on his list. (As well as solar concentrator, distillers, gasification and others. . .) Kirk has a good resource developing, but the main thrust seems to involve diesel gen sets. My project is a scroll expander driven by refrigerant gas, and I've had no end of headache getting it off the ground. I've done this sort of thing with steam in the past, but I wanted something operating at lower temperatures, so I could use hot water to drive the cycle (a topping system is what I had in mind--take the first 10 degrees C off of a water tank heated by my wood stove for the expander, then pipe the rest to the domestic supply), while condenser waste supplied pre heated water for the hot side. With such a system, flat plate solar panels could generate the required heat on the rare occasions when the sun shines around here. . . It's a great idea on paper. I have a scroll expander, assorted plumbing, valves and gauges, but the system pump, acquiring the refrigerant (I want to use R 124, or R 134--not 134a!), and eliminating oil (which the scroll needs in order to seal) and air from the lines have proven more problematic than I imagined. I could use methanol, but I really don't want to vaporize anything that can kill me or my family if it leaks! My long suffering wife is waiting for me to lose heart and abandon the project. . . However, I'm rather determined to increase my level of independence. The amount of wood I cut each year should be able to heat my house, all my domestic hot water and provide a couple of kilowatt hours of electricity. The fact that so much energy races up the stack to heat the sky simply bothers me. I know the chimney needs hot gases to work, but the temperature gauge on the flue indicates that more is heating the sky than is necessary. I'd really like to collect, cut, stack, burn and waste less. But my garden LOVES the ashes! robert luis rabello Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
kirk wrote: I know the chimney needs hot gases to work, Since it is reduced density generating the needed lift it seems to me you could use a well insulated stack and extract the heat at the last moment. True. However, as long as the stack remains inside my house, it contributes to space heating. snip If you want to discuss it on micro cogen it is fine with me. Cogen is cogen. I just advocate diesel because it is off the shelf and top efficiency. I haven't discussed it because my system isn't working! When I did this with steam, I ended up with less than 1% conversion efficiency from wood to electricity. If my math is right for the Rankine cycle, I'll end up with about 17% conversion efficiency using the lower temperature working fluid without superheat. That's more than enough! I can use the waste heat for domestic purposes. I suppose there would be lots of problems powering a Brayton cycle with wood. Charcoal might be ok but I think wood has lots of goop problems. I suppose your wood heated closed cycle is a reasonable compromise. The cyclical effect of wood burning, coupled with the high latent heat of water, stabilizes the expander's operation. I plan a vapor cycling system that only activates the expander when vapor pressure reaches a set point. (Batteries don't care if their charging is intermittent.) Wood burning also eliminates the need for feed stock pre treatment characteristic of gasification systems, and the serious energy losses involved in creating charcoal. It wouldn't be a perfect system, but it would be nice if I could actually get it to work! robert luis rabello Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Ah, Robert, I'm but a bear of small brain - frankly, I don't know what the hell you're talking about! :-) What's a scroll expander? No, don't tell me. Don't be discouraged either - plenty of others here know exactly what you're talking about, I'm sure. I get the idea though. I'm also bothered about heating the sky - not right now, in this nice flat, but in the past when I've used wood, and generally. That chimney heat should be tappable so it can be used. Or something. Peter Singfield in Belize would wax interesting on this I think, and so would Adrian English - on the other lists you're on. Have you checked out Adrian's Big Top gasifier? All that nice fertile soil you're sitting on can't push up a crop of oil so you can use a diesel? Best Keith Keith Addison wrote: (this is actually robert's comment from a previous post) I'm working on a cogeneration scheme for my wood stove to increase the efficiency of my biofuel resource. (And no, it's not going very well!!!) to which Keith responded: Do you know Kirk's group? [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Micro_Cogeneration Yes. I'm on his list. (As well as solar concentrator, distillers, gasification and others. . .) Kirk has a good resource developing, but the main thrust seems to involve diesel gen sets. My project is a scroll expander driven by refrigerant gas, and I've had no end of headache getting it off the ground. I've done this sort of thing with steam in the past, but I wanted something operating at lower temperatures, so I could use hot water to drive the cycle (a topping system is what I had in mind--take the first 10 degrees C off of a water tank heated by my wood stove for the expander, then pipe the rest to the domestic supply), while condenser waste supplied pre heated water for the hot side. With such a system, flat plate solar panels could generate the required heat on the rare occasions when the sun shines around here. . . It's a great idea on paper. I have a scroll expander, assorted plumbing, valves and gauges, but the system pump, acquiring the refrigerant (I want to use R 124, or R 134--not 134a!), and eliminating oil (which the scroll needs in order to seal) and air from the lines have proven more problematic than I imagined. I could use methanol, but I really don't want to vaporize anything that can kill me or my family if it leaks! My long suffering wife is waiting for me to lose heart and abandon the project. . . However, I'm rather determined to increase my level of independence. The amount of wood I cut each year should be able to heat my house, all my domestic hot water and provide a couple of kilowatt hours of electricity. The fact that so much energy races up the stack to heat the sky simply bothers me. I know the chimney needs hot gases to work, but the temperature gauge on the flue indicates that more is heating the sky than is necessary. I'd really like to collect, cut, stack, burn and waste less. But my garden LOVES the ashes! robert luis rabello Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Trains - was Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
By the way, there's a major magazine that wants to run a big piece on trains, the lack thereof, in the US mainly, also elsewhere. I've been asked to write it, but backed off - too much research, too far away. I guess I could contribute on the elsewhere bit. Anyone know a trains guru/advocate with the whole thing at his fingertips who might be interested? Anyone like to contribute? It wouldn't be for a few months, but this could be a chance to to something about it, considering what Robert's been saying, all too true, and the figures that Tim posted previously - once again: Average BTU consumed Per Passenger mile by mode of travel: SUV: 4,591 Air: 4,123 Bus: 3,729 Car: 3,672 Train: 2,138 Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics http://199.79.179.77/btsprod/nts/Ch4_web/4-20.htm Let me know. Thanks Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Trains - was Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Here's something someone sent me about the London Underground - the Metro. Keith Cleanliness on London Underground During Autumn of 2000, a team of scientists at the Department of Forensics at University College London removed a row of passenger seats from a Central Line tube carriage for analysis into cleanliness. Despite London Underground's claim that the interior of their trains are cleaned on a regular basis, the scientists made some alarming discoveries: This is what was found on the surface of the seats: - 4 types of hair sample (human, mouse, rat, dog) - 7 types of insect (mostly fleas, mostly alive) - vomit originating from at least 9 separate people - human urine originating from at least 4 separate people - human excrement - rodent excrement - human semen When the seats were taken apart, they found: - the remains of 6 mice - the remains of 2 large rats - 1 previously unheard of fungus It is estimated that by holding one of the armrests, you are transferring, to your body, the natural oils and sweat from as many as 400 different people. It is estimated that it is generally healthier to smoke five cigarettes a day than to travel for one hour a day on the London Underground. It is far more hygienic to wipe your hand on the inside of a recently flushed toilet bowl before eating, than to wipe your hand on a London Underground seat before eating. It is estimated that, within London, more work sick-days are taken because of bugs picked up whilst travelling on the London Underground than for any other reason including alcohol). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
I find on very windy days my 20 foot long pipe is marginal unless the fire is hot. I need that much lift to offset the partial pressure made by the wind. I haven't made any effort to capture the heat moving out the stack. Those thermoelectric semiconductors they are touting look interesting. They never seem to make it to market though. Kirk - Original Message - From: robert luis rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 12:36 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing kirk wrote: I know the chimney needs hot gases to work, Since it is reduced density generating the needed lift it seems to me you could use a well insulated stack and extract the heat at the last moment. True. However, as long as the stack remains inside my house, it contributes to space heating. snip If you want to discuss it on micro cogen it is fine with me. Cogen is cogen. I just advocate diesel because it is off the shelf and top efficiency. I haven't discussed it because my system isn't working! When I did this with steam, I ended up with less than 1% conversion efficiency from wood to electricity. If my math is right for the Rankine cycle, I'll end up with about 17% conversion efficiency using the lower temperature working fluid without superheat. That's more than enough! I can use the waste heat for domestic purposes. I suppose there would be lots of problems powering a Brayton cycle with wood. Charcoal might be ok but I think wood has lots of goop problems. I suppose your wood heated closed cycle is a reasonable compromise. The cyclical effect of wood burning, coupled with the high latent heat of water, stabilizes the expander's operation. I plan a vapor cycling system that only activates the expander when vapor pressure reaches a set point. (Batteries don't care if their charging is intermittent.) Wood burning also eliminates the need for feed stock pre treatment characteristic of gasification systems, and the serious energy losses involved in creating charcoal. It wouldn't be a perfect system, but it would be nice if I could actually get it to work! robert luis rabello Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Never seem to make it market? Geez, do a google on it you can buy all sorts of them from numerous manufacturers. I'm not on the computer where I have that stuff bookmarked or I'd post some -- but I'm also sure I've posted some before, if not here, perhaps at wastewatts. Look for thermoelectric generators TEG pelletier devices etc. One company is replacing semi-truck alternators with them in the exhaust. kirk wrote: I find on very windy days my 20 foot long pipe is marginal unless the fire is hot. I need that much lift to offset the partial pressure made by the wind. I haven't made any effort to capture the heat moving out the stack. Those thermoelectric semiconductors they are touting look interesting. They never seem to make it to market though. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Harmon wrote: Never seem to make it market? Geez, do a google on it you can buy all sorts of them from numerous manufacturers. I'm not on the computer where I have that stuff bookmarked or I'd post some -- but I'm also sure I've posted some before, if not here, perhaps at wastewatts. Look for thermoelectric generators TEG pelletier devices etc. One company is replacing semi-truck alternators with them in the exhaust. This is one of your posts, there may have been others. Keith To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 10:18:09 -0600 From: Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: thermoelectric devices If you want to add a thermoelectric generator to a woodstove, I'd think it much more economical to buy just the basic modules rather than the quite expensive radiolantern or other commercial unit which would then have to be adapted. Here's a list of manufacturers and other info: http://www.peltier-info.com/generators.html Some of these things can be quite powerful: http://www.hi-z.com/websit07.htm However, let us remember, there's no free lunch. I'm wondering if taking heat from the stove might inhibit gasification? For instance, the outside wood boilers which have become popular in the US are horrible polluters, principally because the poor design surrounds the combustion chamber with the boiler, and combustion temperatures stay well below what is needed for real gasification. Also realize that these peltier devices all need heat on one side, but also cooling on the other, in order to generate electricity. The above 1KW unit, for instance, is cooled by the truck radiator. Here's a page which gives equations for the process: http://www.ferrotec-america.com/3ref13.htm -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com kirk wrote: I find on very windy days my 20 foot long pipe is marginal unless the fire is hot. I need that much lift to offset the partial pressure made by the wind. I haven't made any effort to capture the heat moving out the stack. Those thermoelectric semiconductors they are touting look interesting. They never seem to make it to market though. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
My blathering* idiosyncrasies about heat, water and gasses brought me to a better understanding of what Lester R Brown wrote in his articles and the connection I drew from another ÷ impart said, If sea ice at the poles shrinks significantly, the earth could respond by warming because of a positive feedback loop, Jeffries said. With less sea ice, there's more open water. The open water collects energy from the sun in summer, which hampers the formation of sea ice when temperatures drop in the winter. With less sea ice at the poles, less sunlight is reflected. Sunlight that would have been reflected is absorbed by the water, which heats up and repeats the warming cycle. The Norwegian researchers say they can't determine the cause of the sea ice reduction, but it does match a pattern expected from greenhouse warming, where gases such as the carbon dioxide (exhaled by our vehicles and power plants) warm the planet by trapping heat. Geophysical Institute, University of Alaska Fairbanks Alaska Science Forum October 5, 1995 Sea Ice Reduction May Be Another Climate Change Clue by Ned Rozell Article #1255 http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF12/1255.html *I'll relent and turn this back to the [biofuel] carbon neutral list. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Trains - was Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
SkyTran http://www.SkyTran.net homepage How energy efficient is SkyTran? Mathematically compares: Light Rail, Diesel Bus, Auto, Electric Car, SkyTran (estimated at 200 plus mpg) http://www.SkyTran.net/faq/index.htm#efficient Keith Addison wrote: By the way, there's a major magazine that wants to run a big piece on trains, the lack thereof, in the US mainly, also elsewhere. I've been asked to write it, but backed off - too much research, too far away. I guess I could contribute on the elsewhere bit. Anyone know a trains guru/advocate with the whole thing at his fingertips who might be interested? Anyone like to contribute? It wouldn't be for a few months, but this could be a chance to to something about it, considering what Robert's been saying, all too true, and the figures that Tim posted previously - once again: Average BTU consumed Per Passenger mile by mode of travel: SUV: 4,591 Air: 4,123 Bus: 3,729 Car: 3,672 Train: 2,138 Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics http://199.79.179.77/btsprod/nts/Ch4_web/4-20.htm Let me know. Thanks Keith Addison Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Been to the website. Is a proof of concept. Try to buy one. The only 2 companies selling are the Canadian outfit and Teledyne and both are higher than a giraffes butt. Only pencils under special circumstances. I have recommended them for repeaters where the batteries benefit from the heat and the area has several days in a row with no sun. - Original Message - From: Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing Never seem to make it market? Geez, do a google on it you can buy all sorts of them from numerous manufacturers. I'm not on the computer where I have that stuff bookmarked or I'd post some -- but I'm also sure I've posted some before, if not here, perhaps at wastewatts. Look for thermoelectric generators TEG pelletier devices etc. One company is replacing semi-truck alternators with them in the exhaust. kirk wrote: I find on very windy days my 20 foot long pipe is marginal unless the fire is hot. I need that much lift to offset the partial pressure made by the wind. I haven't made any effort to capture the heat moving out the stack. Those thermoelectric semiconductors they are touting look interesting. They never seem to make it to market though. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Which website is that? Did you check out this (http://www.peltier-info.com/generators.html) that Keith just posted, gives a whole list of manufacturers of TEGS, places to buy surplus one, etc. And the company doing the truck muffler definitely sells the TEGS, they gave me prices. While some of these have been expensive, the prices are dropping rapidly, they now are at or even lower than PV prices. kirk wrote: Been to the website. Is a proof of concept. Try to buy one. The only 2 companies selling are the Canadian outfit and Teledyne and both are higher than a giraffes butt. Only pencils under special circumstances. I have recommended them for repeaters where the batteries benefit from the heat and the area has several days in a row with no sun. - Original Message - From: Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing Never seem to make it market? Geez, do a google on it you can buy all sorts of them from numerous manufacturers. I'm not on the computer where I have that stuff bookmarked or I'd post some -- but I'm also sure I've posted some before, if not here, perhaps at wastewatts. Look for thermoelectric generators TEG pelletier devices etc. One company is replacing semi-truck alternators with them in the exhaust. kirk wrote: I find on very windy days my 20 foot long pipe is marginal unless the fire is hot. I need that much lift to offset the partial pressure made by the wind. I haven't made any effort to capture the heat moving out the stack. Those thermoelectric semiconductors they are touting look interesting. They never seem to make it to market though. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
I emailed the truck site twice on different occassions with no response. If you have a URL for $5 a watt TEG please share. I would love to get some. Kirk - Original Message - From: Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 12:09 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing Which website is that? Did you check out this (http://www.peltier-info.com/generators.html) that Keith just posted, gives a whole list of manufacturers of TEGS, places to buy surplus one, etc. And the company doing the truck muffler definitely sells the TEGS, they gave me prices. While some of these have been expensive, the prices are dropping rapidly, they now are at or even lower than PV prices. kirk wrote: Been to the website. Is a proof of concept. Try to buy one. The only 2 companies selling are the Canadian outfit and Teledyne and both are higher than a giraffes butt. Only pencils under special circumstances. I have recommended them for repeaters where the batteries benefit from the heat and the area has several days in a row with no sun. - Original Message - From: Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing Never seem to make it market? Geez, do a google on it you can buy all sorts of them from numerous manufacturers. I'm not on the computer where I have that stuff bookmarked or I'd post some -- but I'm also sure I've posted some before, if not here, perhaps at wastewatts. Look for thermoelectric generators TEG pelletier devices etc. One company is replacing semi-truck alternators with them in the exhaust. kirk wrote: I find on very windy days my 20 foot long pipe is marginal unless the fire is hot. I need that much lift to offset the partial pressure made by the wind. I haven't made any effort to capture the heat moving out the stack. Those thermoelectric semiconductors they are touting look interesting. They never seem to make it to market though. -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Trains - was Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Keith Addison wrote: By the way, there's a major magazine that wants to run a big piece on trains, the lack thereof, in the US mainly, also elsewhere. I've been asked to write it, but backed off - too much research, too far away. I guess I could contribute on the elsewhere bit. Anyone know a trains guru/advocate with the whole thing at his fingertips who might be interested? Anyone like to contribute? It wouldn't be for a few months, but this could be a chance to to something about it, considering what Robert's been saying, all too true, and the figures that Tim posted previously - once again: Average BTU consumed Per Passenger mile by mode of travel: SUV: 4,591 Air: 4,123 Bus: 3,729 Car: 3,672 Train: 2,138 Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics http://199.79.179.77/btsprod/nts/Ch4_web/4-20.htm (notes from site above) NOTES: To calculate total Btu, multiply fuel consumed (see tables 4-21, 4-22, 4-24, 4-25) by 135,000 Btu/gallon for air carrier, 125,000 Btu/gallon for passenger car, other 2-axle 4-tire vehicle, and motorcycle, and 138,700 Btu/gallon for transit motor bus and Amtrak. MH wrote: What I'm trying to understand is mile-per-gallon per-passenger per-vehicle NOTE: all mpg rounded off SUV: 125,000 Btu/gallon divide by 4,591 BTUs Per Passenger mile = 27 mpg Air:135,000 Btu/gallon divide by 4,123 BTUs Per Passenger mile = 33 mpg Bus: 138,700 Btu/gallon divide by 3,729 BTUs Per Passenger mile = 37 mpg Car:125,000 Btu/gallon divide by 3,672 BTUs Per Passenger mile = 34 mpg Train: 138,700 Btu/gallon divide by 2,138 BTUs Per Passenger mile = 65 mpg Lupo: 138,700 divide by 100 mpg = 1,387 BTUs Per Passenger mile Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
kirk wrote: I emailed the truck site twice on different occassions with no response. If you have a URL for $5 a watt TEG please share. I would love to get some. Kirk Here's the prices I got from them back at the beginning of Dec. Note that he says these prices will soon drop. Here's a cheap site for pelletier devices, these seem to be designed for heating and cooling, not electric generation, but my understanding of the technology is that you can get either heat, cold, or power out of any of these modules -- apply juice, you get heat from one side, cold the other, apply heat (and cooling) you get power: http://www.tedist.com/modules/hiperf.html And here's a site: http://www.yankeescientific.com/html/free_watt.html that say: When the Free Watt furnace was built, themoelectric generators cost about $20 per watt of output. Dramatic cost reductions have been made with some current thermoelectric generators costing only $6 per watt. In the next few years it may be possible to purchase thermoelectric generators for as little as $2 per watt. You should also check out another page on this site, interesting low-power steam application. http://www.yankeescientific.com/html/lp_steam_furnace.html This one is oil-fired, but it could just as easily be wood-fired. So the Hi-Z units were about $12.60 @ watt back then, probably cheaper now, and yankeescientific says they are paying $6 @ watt. Original Message Subject: Your inquiry, 07 December Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:07:41 -0800 From: Dan Allen, Hi-Z Technology, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix Dear Mr. Seaver: Our prices FOB San Diego, plus shipping. Availability is a problem at this time due to high demand for our modules. HZ-2$ 87 no schedule for volume discounts has been prepared HZ-14 1 - 9 $ 195 each 10 - 99 $ 175 each 100 - 599 $ 140 each 600 - 999 $ 124 each 1000 - 1999 $ 99 each HZ-20 1 - 9 $ 235 each 10 - 99 $ 210 each 100 - 599 $ 180 each 600 - 999 $ 149 each 1000 - 1999 $ 120 each I am told we may be reducing these prices soon, but this is our current pricing. In most applications you must use insulating wafers on both sides of the module. We recommend the use of heat transfer paste with these wafers. (Refer to the information on our Internet web-site concerning the use and application of the modules:http://www.hi-z.com/how-to.htm) Hi-Z can provide these materials also: HZ-14 ceramic wafers (two needed) $ 3 each HZ-20 ceramic wafers (two needed) $ 5 each 2 oz. heat transfer paste $15 Hi-Z does not sell a wafer sized for the HZ-2. For the HZ-2 you will want to get the HZ-14 wafer and either cut it down to size using a diamond scribe or use it as is. (One HZ-14 wafer will give you material for four HZ-2 wafers, but buy extra unless you are experienced at cutting thin ceramic.) We prefer to ship by USPS Express Mail [Global Express Mail (EMS) to Canada] for smaller orders, but shipment can be requested by FedEx, UPS or standard mail. Please be sure to specify shipment method. Sales tax of 7.5% is added to shipments within the state of California, unless the purchaser is a government agency or unless the order is indicated for resale and a California resale number is provided to us with the order. We accept Purchase Orders by mail or FAX (858 695 8870) from recognized US and Canadian businesses and government agencies. For sales to individuals we ask for payment in advance. Orders or payments in Canadian funds are not accepted. We do not have the facility to take payment by credit card. Yours sincerely, Dan Allen staff engineer Hi-Z Technology, Inc. 7606 Miramar Road San Diego CA 92126 4210 tel.: 858 695 6660 -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Here's another interesting technology to use with wood fires, not a TEG, but a TPV, thermophotovoltaic. Essentially uses the heat and light from the fire to produce electricity. http://www.jxcrystals.com/ -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
check out www.allelectronics.com they have some peltier junction units. anton -Original Message- From: Harmon Seaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 4:09 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing Here's another interesting technology to use with wood fires, not a TEG, but a TPV, thermophotovoltaic. Essentially uses the heat and light from the fire to produce electricity. http://www.jxcrystals.com/ -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/iZp8OC/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Devices made for cooling will work but not as efficiently as devices made for TEG work. The doping is different so they tell me. The TPV data I've seen so far claims higher conversion efficiency. I called the people with the pellet stove but they are only doing tests in Washington state. Kirk - Original Message - From: Anton Berteaux [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 6:20 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing check out www.allelectronics.com they have some peltier junction units. anton -Original Message- From: Harmon Seaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 4:09 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing Here's another interesting technology to use with wood fires, not a TEG, but a TPV, thermophotovoltaic. Essentially uses the heat and light from the fire to produce electricity. http://www.jxcrystals.com/ -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Keith Addison wrote: (this is actually robert's comment from a previous post) I'm working on a cogeneration scheme for my wood stove to increase the efficiency of my biofuel resource. (And no, it's not going very well!!!) to which Keith responded: Do you know Kirk's group? [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Micro_Cogeneration Yes. I'm on his list. (As well as solar concentrator, distillers, gasification and others. . .) Kirk has a good resource developing, but the main thrust seems to involve diesel gen sets. My project is a scroll expander driven by refrigerant gas, and I've had no end of headache getting it off the ground. I've done this sort of thing with steam in the past, but I wanted something operating at lower temperatures, so I could use hot water to drive the cycle (a topping system is what I had in mind--take the first 10 degrees C off of a water tank heated by my wood stove for the expander, then pipe the rest to the domestic supply), while condenser waste supplied pre heated water for the hot side. With such a system, flat plate solar panels could generate the required heat on the rare occasions when the sun shines around here. . . It's a great idea on paper. I have a scroll expander, assorted plumbing, valves and gauges, but the system pump, acquiring the refrigerant (I want to use R 124, or R 134--not 134a!), and eliminating oil (which the scroll needs in order to seal) and air from the lines have proven more problematic than I imagined. I could use methanol, but I really don't want to vaporize anything that can kill me or my family if it leaks! My long suffering wife is waiting for me to lose heart and abandon the project. . . However, I'm rather determined to increase my level of independence. The amount of wood I cut each year should be able to heat my house, all my domestic hot water and provide a couple of kilowatt hours of electricity. The fact that so much energy races up the stack to heat the sky simply bothers me. I know the chimney needs hot gases to work, but the temperature gauge on the flue indicates that more is heating the sky than is necessary. I'd really like to collect, cut, stack, burn and waste less. But my garden LOVES the ashes! robert luis rabello Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Thanks Keith. Still looking for one that lists all 167? countries of the world BUT found a chart that list the top 30 countries of the world. Table 1. Top BTU Consumption by Country - 1995. Per Capita BTUs (Millions) India 11 Brazil25 China27 Mexico 57 Japan 142 UK 148 Australia 219 Canada 303 USA 327 http://www.ecoworld.com/Articles/May23_BTU_GNP.cfm Table E1 World Primary Energy Consumption (Btu), 1990-1999 (Quadrillion (10^15) Btu) Lists over 80 of the worlds countries. http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/iea/tablee1.html Even took the Kids Quiz on Energy. 15 multiple choice questions with Find the answer first or look at the Quick Answer List. http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyquiz.html MH wrote: In the article below it mentioned, Europeans routinely use 30 percent less energy per unit of gross national product than Americans do. Could anyone point me to a website(s) that could elaborate or compare the differences. Thank you. This should get you started: US Energy Information Administration http://www.eia.doe.gov/ Regards Keith Addison http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5027 TOMPAINE.com - Book Excerpt Making Something From Nothing The Quixotic Logic Of The Bush Energy Plan, And How To Fix It Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Hi Martin The US is at the top because it is the largest highly industrialized nation. The gross size doesn't account for it though. The average American uses twice as much energy as the average European or Japanese. In terms of production, Americans produce more per head than Europeans and about the same as Japanese, but they use twice as much energy as the Japanese to do it. And the comment from Lester Brown's book, which Hoagy questioned in the first place: Europeans routinely use 30 percent less energy per unit of gross national product than Americans do. Energy per unit and per capita consumption are comparative measures. Not much can be done besides make things more efficient and get energy from cleaner sources [the Sun gives us more energy per day than we need in a lifetime]. That's right - which leaves a very great deal to be done, eh? There are now a few seemingly solid studies that show it'd be a terrific boost to the economy - the whole economy, not just the usual suspects. Strange how such hearty news goes down like a lead balloon. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ = -Martin Klingensmith http://archive.nnytech.net/ http://devzero.ath.cx/ http://www.nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
I understand what you mean after reading these interesting but brief capsulated Related Articles: [thanks for the link] You're most welcome, Hoagy. Maybe TomPaine.com might be carrying further excerpts. By the way, the current issue of Mother Earth News has a major essay by Lester brown on the Eco-Economy. Worth a look-at. As is the whole mag, IMO. Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Book Excerpt Rethinking Economic Progress The Dow May Be Up Over The Past Decade, But Cod, Aquifers, Topsoil, Fisheries, Forests And Coral Reefs Are Down http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5023 The America Syndrome What Would Happen If Chinese Citizens Lived Like Americans? http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5024 The Next Big Investment Opportunity How To Make The Economy Work For Mother Earth http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5026 Making Something From Nothing The Quixotic Logic Of The Bush Energy Plan, And How To Fix It http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5027 Lester Brown is chairman of the Worldwatch Institute's board. adapted from the Earth Policy Institute's new book Eco-Economy: Building an Economy for the Earth (W.W. Norton Co., NY: 2001) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Keith Addison wrote: The gross size doesn't account for it though. The average American uses twice as much energy as the average European or Japanese. In terms of production, Americans produce more per head than Europeans and about the same as Japanese, but they use twice as much energy as the Japanese to do it. In my view, two things contribute to this excessive energy usage. The first, is that the U.S. is a very large country whose manufacturing, farming and retail centers are dispersed over a large geographic area. This creates a need to move goods and services in excess of what smaller nations, like Japan or Germany, are required to do. Hence, 25% of all energy used in the U.S. is used for transportation, most of that is derived from petroleum, and better than 50% of that is imported. Secondly, our economic and tax policies favor resource extraction rather than resource conservation. This might have been an important factor in developing the national infrastructure, but now that it's in place, such policies contribute to excessive resource use. If people have no economic incentive to conserve resources, few will actually do so. This is not a problem limited to Americans--we just happen to be wealthy enough to afford waste, and that's a shame. What we typically don't see, is that our waste creates distress for other nations that supply us with goods and services, while it undermines our economic future. (Increased efficiency will result in greater productivity and profit for local businesses.) Living in someone else's country has brought these issues into clear focus for me. Americans interested in changing this dynamic need to begin by reducing their own energy use as much as possible, then work to address myopic policies that promote waste. Alack! I've been preaching this sermon for almost 30 years, and nobody seems to be listening! I'm done with my rant now. . . robert luis rabello Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
Keith Addison wrote: The gross size doesn't account for it though. The average American uses twice as much energy as the average European or Japanese. In terms of production, Americans produce more per head than Europeans and about the same as Japanese, but they use twice as much energy as the Japanese to do it. In my view, two things contribute to this excessive energy usage. The first, is that the U.S. is a very large country whose manufacturing, farming and retail centers are dispersed over a large geographic area. This creates a need to move goods and services in excess of what smaller nations, like Japan or Germany, are required to do. Hence, 25% of all energy used in the U.S. is used for transportation, most of that is derived from petroleum, and better than 50% of that is imported. Secondly, our economic and tax policies favor resource extraction rather than resource conservation. This might have been an important factor in developing the national infrastructure, but now that it's in place, such policies contribute to excessive resource use. If people have no economic incentive to conserve resources, few will actually do so. This is not a problem limited to Americans--we just happen to be wealthy enough to afford waste, and that's a shame. What we typically don't see, is that our waste creates distress for other nations that supply us with goods and services, while it undermines our economic future. (Increased efficiency will result in greater productivity and profit for local businesses.) Living in someone else's country has brought these issues into clear focus for me. Americans interested in changing this dynamic need to begin by reducing their own energy use as much as possible, then work to address myopic policies that promote waste. Alack! I've been preaching this sermon for almost 30 years, and nobody seems to be listening! I'm done with my rant now. . . robert luis rabello No no, Robert, don't stop now! Take heart! Thanks, I fully agree. I think Japanese are richer than Americans though, many things indicate. (Anyone who thinks they're an economic basket-case as alleged should dream on.) Also there are other big countries. When it's said that Americans need big gas-guzzlers because it's a big country, that's a load of nonsense nearly all the time, but it does hold good for transport. On the other hand, why's the rail network so weak? Other things too - like food miles, it has to change. As Europe is beginning to see. Massive waste and asking for all kinds of trouble. Which duly arrives. More local self-reliance, good for everyone, and also results in greater productivity and profit for local businesses. It needs a really broad approach, eh? Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Making Something From Nothing
In the article below it mentioned, Europeans routinely use 30 percent less energy per unit of gross national product than Americans do. Could anyone point me to a website(s) that could elaborate or compare the differences. Thank you. This should get you started: US Energy Information Administration http://www.eia.doe.gov/ Regards Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/5027 TOMPAINE.com - Book Excerpt Making Something From Nothing The Quixotic Logic Of The Bush Energy Plan, And How To Fix It Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
