Re: [biofuel] Thought provoking?
In a message dated 3/25/03 11:17:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do not know the author of this, so I do not even know if it is a true opinion or fiction. But it does sound plausible, I must admit I find it difficult to not find the everyday violence which is more common is non-western countries, somewhat horrifying. I taught a summer class last year for 10-12 year olds. One child, from India, when asked what she liked about living in the US the most, responded , I like the libraries and that the teachers don't beat the students here. Of course the other children wanted more details, they were all shocked to find out what normal school life was like where she came from. Perhaps people from other cultures do not want to be saved from the lifestyle they currently have, I don't know. Certainly the child I met from India thought it was much nicer, and less scary living in the US. Perhaps we should ask the children. Caroline Letter from an Iraqi-American Before anybody decides to go out and join more protests, maybe it would be fair to provide an alternate view. I, as you may have learned, am an Iraqi-American. Actually Assyrian-Iraqi-American. Most of my family was in Baghdad during the first Gulf War--some were in Kuwait. My aunt Margaret tells me that during that war, they would wait until night and go sit on the rooftops and cheer the bombing. The American attacks were so concise, she said that they would bet on which government or utilities building would be hit, and were more often than not, correct. Civilian targets were always accidental. Think about it: what military objective would be served by hitting a civilian hospital, when the opposing army is surrendering en masse(not fighting and getting injured)? For the last six months on al-Jazeera television, Iraqi defectors have been appearing on talk shows begging--literally, begging--the other Arab nations to support the US in this war, to finally free the Iraqi people. Without fail, their counterparts from other nations stated that they preferred Hussein to the USA. Here are some figures. Since taking power officially in 1978 (although he was the functional leader since 1971), Hussein has executed somewhere in the range of 3 million political prisoners. He launched chemical weapons against Assyrians and Kurds in the North. He drained the marshes in the south, which the Shi'ites need to survive, causing a famine-on-purpose in the style of what Stalin did to Ukraine in the 30s. Every day in Iraq, 2,500 children die from malnutrition and lack of medicine because Hussein has been kicking out UN (not US) inspectors for 11 years. Two thousand five hundred children die every day. So do not dare, for one instant, to protest this war on behalf of the Iraqi people. To do so is to spit in the face of the millions of people who yearn for freedom from his regime. Hussein is not Castro. Uday Hussein, his son, is the head of athletics in Iraq. He owns a football club. For years, whenever they wouldn't perform to expectations, he would bring them to his personal prison and torture them ruthlessly. He maintained a harem of hundreds of women whom he would rape, defile, and murder. The few hundred Iraqi civilians who may die in the bombing raids are a pittance compared to the millions Hussein has killed as well as the appalling number of children who die every day due to his arms program stubborn-ness. How many more can die so a bunch of addle-brained do-gooders can get on TV waving placards? It is hypocritical and worse irrational to oppose this war on behalf of the Iraqi people. They don't know the desires of the Iraqi people, or the apalling suffering of the Iraqi people. The only reason to protest the war would be because you are opposed to any and all war, opposed to sending US troops anywhere, ever. In which case kudos to you, I suppose, for returning to the turn-of-the-century style isolationism that indirectly lead to the horrific casualties of World War I and II. The world depends on superpowers to lend coercive power to international regimes. The best are those signs that say, No Iraqi Blood for Oil. How about, No More Iraqi Blood for French Interests, since the French opposed this war solely because they have hundreds of billions of dollars tied up with the Iraqi regime, money they will lose if Hussein is ousted because international regimes stipulate that a nation is not responsible for the debts of a deposed, illegitimate regime. The same goes for the Russians and Germans. The Russians have invested billions in Iraq's nuclear program. And to answer those who argue that the US is only engendering more hate among out European allies: Whose fault is that? Ours? Bush is an inept, almost moronic leader who angered many when he imposed a steel tariff, pulled out of the Kyoto protocol, and so forth. But in this
Re: [biofuel] Thought provoking?
I do not know the author of this, so I do not even know if it is a true opinion or fiction. But it does sound plausible, I must admit I find it difficult to not find the everyday violence which is more common is non-western countries, somewhat horrifying. I taught a summer class last year for 10-12 year olds. One child, from India, when asked what she liked about living in the US the most, responded , I like the libraries and that the teachers don't beat the students here. Of course the other children wanted more details, they were all shocked to find out what normal school life was like where she came from. Perhaps people from other cultures do not want to be saved from the lifestyle they currently have, I don't know. Certainly the child I met from India thought it was much nicer, and less scary living in the US. Perhaps we should ask the children. Caroline Try asking this child - see YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK. http://www.prorev.com/indexa.htm Or the children Robert Fisk wrote about: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=23129list=BIOFUEL Letter from an Iraqi-American Before anybody decides to go out and join more protests, maybe it would be fair to provide an alternate view. I, as you may have learned, am an Iraqi-American. Actually Assyrian-Iraqi-American. Most of my family was in Baghdad during the first Gulf War--some were in Kuwait. My aunt Margaret tells me that during that war, they would wait until night and go sit on the rooftops and cheer the bombing. The American attacks were so concise, she said that they would bet on which government or utilities building would be hit, and were more often than not, correct. Civilian targets were always accidental. Think about it: what military objective would be served by hitting a civilian hospital, when the opposing army is surrendering en masse(not fighting and getting injured)? It wasn't nearly as precise as claimed at the time, there was a lot of collateral damage (dead civilians), the details have been well established and in the public record for a long time. The current generation of smart bombs are also not as smart as claimed. From a previous post: US gambles on a 'smart' war in Iraq The military hope precision weapons will both win the war and help prevent politically damning civilian casualties - but the technology is far from fail-safe http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns3518 For the last six months on al-Jazeera television, Iraqi defectors have been appearing on talk shows begging--literally, begging--the other Arab nations to support the US in this war, to finally free the Iraqi people. Without fail, their counterparts from other nations stated that they preferred Hussein to the USA. Here are some figures. Since taking power officially in 1978 (although he was the functional leader since 1971), Hussein has executed somewhere in the range of 3 million political prisoners. Do you have a reference for that please? Nobody argues that Saddam Hussein isn't a monster - but THAT much of a monster? - I doubt it very much. Whatever the correct figure, Saddam Hussein's monstrous behaviour had the at least tacit approval of the United States up to 1991, and active support as well - the US funded him and supplied him. He launched chemical weapons against Assyrians and Kurds in the North. Iraq did use chemical weapons against Iranian troops and Kurdish civilians back in the 1980s when Saddam Hussein's regime was being supported by the United States. The Reagan administration covered up for the Halabja massacre and similar attacks against Kurdish civilians by falsely claiming that it was the Iranians--then the preferred enemy--who were responsible. In addition, the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency provided Iraq with U.S. satellite data to help Saddam Hussein's forces locate Iranian troop concentrations in the full knowledge that they were using chemical weapons. Many of the key components of Iraq's chemical weapons program came from the United States, ostensibly for pesticides as part of taxpayer-funded agricultural subsidies, despite evidence that these U.S.-manufactured chemicals were probably being diverted for use in illegal chemical weapons. He drained the marshes in the south, which the Shi'ites need to survive, causing a famine-on-purpose in the style of what Stalin did to Ukraine in the 30s. Every day in Iraq, 2,500 children die from malnutrition and lack of medicine This is primarily a result of the UN sanctions. Though widely criticized because of the harsh impact of the sanctions on innocent Iraqi civilians, the US and the UK have blocked many proposed reforms. Their intention was to cause suffering in the hopes of turning the population against Saddam Hussein. In fact the sanctions have not achieved their aim, despite all the deaths. Iraq has what the UN has termed the world's most efficient food rationing system, run by the government, with food distributed through 40,000 shops.
Re: [biofuel] Thought provoking?
Plausible or not, peace is not won by dropping bombs without first exhausting all other remidies. Mr. Bush and his administration have fabricated pretext after pretext in the attempt to gain public and political support. This is almost certainly high amongst the reasons for protest around the globe. Most people generally don't appreciate being lied to and cajoled into subjection - not Iraqis - not Americans - not anybody. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Grahams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 11:15 PM Subject: [biofuel] Thought provoking? I do not know the author of this, so I do not even know if it is a true opinion or fiction. But it does sound plausible, I must admit I find it difficult to not find the everyday violence which is more common is non-western countries, somewhat horrifying. I taught a summer class last year for 10-12 year olds. One child, from India, when asked what she liked about living in the US the most, responded , I like the libraries and that the teachers don't beat the students here. Of course the other children wanted more details, they were all shocked to find out what normal school life was like where she came from. Perhaps people from other cultures do not want to be saved from the lifestyle they currently have, I don't know. Certainly the child I met from India thought it was much nicer, and less scary living in the US. Perhaps we should ask the children. Caroline Letter from an Iraqi-American Before anybody decides to go out and join more protests, maybe it would be fair to provide an alternate view. I, as you may have learned, am an Iraqi-American. Actually Assyrian-Iraqi-American. Most of my family was in Baghdad during the first Gulf War--some were in Kuwait. My aunt Margaret tells me that during that war, they would wait until night and go sit on the rooftops and cheer the bombing. The American attacks were so concise, she said that they would bet on which government or utilities building would be hit, and were more often than not, correct. Civilian targets were always accidental. Think about it: what military objective would be served by hitting a civilian hospital, when the opposing army is surrendering en masse(not fighting and getting injured)? For the last six months on al-Jazeera television, Iraqi defectors have been appearing on talk shows begging--literally, begging--the other Arab nations to support the US in this war, to finally free the Iraqi people. Without fail, their counterparts from other nations stated that they preferred Hussein to the USA. Here are some figures. Since taking power officially in 1978 (although he was the functional leader since 1971), Hussein has executed somewhere in the range of 3 million political prisoners. He launched chemical weapons against Assyrians and Kurds in the North. He drained the marshes in the south, which the Shi'ites need to survive, causing a famine-on-purpose in the style of what Stalin did to Ukraine in the 30s. Every day in Iraq, 2,500 children die from malnutrition and lack of medicine because Hussein has been kicking out UN (not US) inspectors for 11 years. Two thousand five hundred children die every day. So do not dare, for one instant, to protest this war on behalf of the Iraqi people. To do so is to spit in the face of the millions of people who yearn for freedom from his regime. Hussein is not Castro. Uday Hussein, his son, is the head of athletics in Iraq. He owns a football club. For years, whenever they wouldn't perform to expectations, he would bring them to his personal prison and torture them ruthlessly. He maintained a harem of hundreds of women whom he would rape, defile, and murder. The few hundred Iraqi civilians who may die in the bombing raids are a pittance compared to the millions Hussein has killed as well as the appalling number of children who die every day due to his arms program stubborn-ness. How many more can die so a bunch of addle-brained do-gooders can get on TV waving placards? It is hypocritical and worse irrational to oppose this war on behalf of the Iraqi people. They don't know the desires of the Iraqi people, or the apalling suffering of the Iraqi people. The only reason to protest the war would be because you are opposed to any and all war, opposed to sending US troops anywhere, ever. In which case kudos to you, I suppose, for returning to the turn-of-the-century style isolationism that indirectly lead to the horrific casualties of World War I and II. The world depends on superpowers to lend coercive power to international regimes. The best are those signs that say, No Iraqi Blood for Oil. How about, No More Iraqi Blood for French Interests, since the French opposed this war solely because they have hundreds of billions of dollars tied up with the Iraqi regime, money they will lose if Hussein is ousted because
BS - was Re: [biofuel] Thought Provoking Book Review
Motie, if you don't mind, this is total BS. Ronald Bailey, FCOL! When it comes to sheer hard facts, Mr Bailey, the Competitive Enterprise Institute and Reason Magazine are right up there with Denis Avery, Michael Fumento, Bjorn Lomborg and, indeed, the one and only David Pimentel - hooray for these torch-bearers of perverted truth, talented liars one and all who would save us from ourselves! Sheesh! The Competitive Enterprise Institute 'postures as an advocate of sound science in the development of public policy. In fact, it is an ideologically-driven, well-funded front for corporations opposed to safety and environmental regulations that affect the way they do business.' Simply that, spinners one and all, very much including Mr Bailey: Ronald Bailey (1993) is the author of a 1993 book titled Eco-Scam: The False Prophets of Ecological Apocalypse and a contributing editor to Reason magazine. In 1995, CEI published a book edited by Bailey titled The True State of the Planet, written to counter to the Worldwatch Institute's influential annual State of the World reports. Contributors to The True State of the Planet included a who's-who of the libertarian right: Dennis Avery of the Hudson Institute, Terry L. Anderson of the Political Economy Research Center, Nicholas Eberstadt of the American Enterprise Institute, Kent Jeffreys of the Heritage foundation, Stephen Moore of the Cato Institute. http://www.prwatch.org/improp/cei.html Competitive Enterprise Institute Impropaganda Review - A Rogue's Gallery of Industry Front Groups and Anti-Environmental Think Tanks (Center for Media Democracy) Organic farming could kill billions of people, wrote Mr Bailey in an article titled Organic Alchemy in Reason Magazine (June 5, 2002). Ho-hum. On the other hand, his co-author in this Thought Provoking Book, Norman Borlaug, is accused of doing just that, with some reason. Other chapters recount the DDT charade, including the ongoing costs in human life resulting from its ban; the illogical debate over energy supplies and alternative sources; the widespread acceptance of the Precautionary Principle, whose main object is to stop the development of the human race. Stop the rampant development of the corporate bottom-line maybe, at the expense of everything else, including the planet. DDT is essential to controlling the spread of malaria - BS. (One reason malaria's spreading is the spreading of the effects of global warming - not BS.) Norman Borlaug, father of the Green Revolution? He still has some semblance of credibility outside of the Monsanto boardroom? Amazing. All the usual suspects. Hey, guys, we're all being illogical with this childish nonsense over biodiesel and so on - Love Big Oil! And all will be well. Trust me. Er, Motie, you were joking, right? Try this instead: #737 - Environmental Trends -- Part 1, 11-08-01 http://www.rachel.org/bulletin/bulletin.cfm?Issue_ID=2114bulletin_ID=48 #738 - Environmental Trends -- Part 2, 11-22-01 http://www.rachel.org/bulletin/bulletin.cfm?Issue_ID=2116bulletin_ID=48 Please, no more Mr Bailey, nor Messrs Avery, Lomborg, etc. Best Keith Mommy, There's A Monster Under My Bed! (A Review Of Global Warming And Other Eco-Myths) Beginning with the publication of Silent Spring, the environmental movement has become progressively disconnected from science and more rigidly defined by a utopian ideology. Based primarily on exaggerations, distortions, and a willful neglect of valid scientific data that runs contrary to their preaching's, the movement continues to advance an agenda that, while posing as society's savior, condemns millions to poverty and disease. Aided by contemporary press- release journalism and the want-it-to-be-true attitudes on the part of those reporting the stories, their claims go unchallenged, becoming part of the conventional wisdom. But information about the true state of the world environment is available; it's just difficult for to find among the hysteria. Fortunately, Ronald Bailey, of the Competitive Enterprise Institute, is trying to change that. As the editor of the recently published Global Warming and Other Eco- Myths, Mr. Bailey has assembled a group of the most respected researchers in their respective fields to explain the truth in their areas of interest. The list of contributors includes, among others, Dr. John R. Christy, Director of the Earth System Science Center at the University of Alabama, Huntsville, and Lead Author of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change [Global Warming]; Dr. Norman Borlaug, Distinguished Professor of International Agriculture at Texas AM and the driving force behind the Green Revolution [Biotechnology]; Dr. Nicholas Eberstadt, Harvard Center for Population and Development Studies [Population and Resources]; Dr. C. S. Prakash, Director of the Center for Plant Biotechnology Research, Tuskegee University, Alabama [Genetically modified plants]. Along with their
Re: [biofuel] Thought Provoking Book Review
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Mommy, There's A Monster Under My Bed! (A Review Of Global Warming And Other Eco-Myths) snip Probably the subject line should have read 'provocative book review!' ;-) I guess, an Indian edition/context of the book would include a lengthy chapter on greed (oops, green) revolution by that illustrious agri scientist of India called MS Swaminathan, who is the Norman Borlaug's equivalent in India. The cutest thing is that this scientist has now started talking about 'sustainable' farming etc - probably because, this would get suffient funding, in these days of enlightened benefactors! Anyway, a few quotes that I harvested are in order here: Do not become archivists of facts. Try to penetrate to the secret of their occurrence, persistently search for the laws which govern them. -- Ivan Pavlov It is not necessary to understand things in order to argue about them. -- Caron de Beaumarchais So Motie, please forgive Ron Bailey - he knows naught what he is doing. ;-) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
BS - was Re: [biofuel] Thought Provoking Book Review
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Motie, if you don't mind, this is total BS. Er, Motie, you were joking, right? Please, no more Mr Bailey, nor Messrs Avery, Lomborg, etc. Best Keith Keith and all, My sincere apologies! It wasn't meant to be a joke, just thought provoking. I confess I didn't research it. It came in my email, and I passed it on without knowing it's History, or researching it. To be honest, I am embarrassed, particularly after my recent tirades against those who pass on debunked 'studies'. I do now have a better understanding as to how it can happen. Feeling Humble, Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
