Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin as an Emulsifier (was GlycerineSettling Time)
Hi Joe, If the answers to questions 2 and 3 are yes then it would explain a lot. I think so. Then the answer to question one could be that although the BD did not pass the QT if it was settled long enough that there is no glycerol it would be consistent with the emergent theory. No? Let us be clear re: The emergent theory. Is it : Very small amounts of unreacted Mono- and Di- Glycerides combined with unsettled Glycerin Mix will produce emulsions, but the same amount of the Glycerides or the Glycerin, alone, do not? (There is an additive/multiplicative/? effect when both are present) I think the results seem to indicate this. Or is the emergent theory: The Glycerin Mix settles more slowly from the product of incomplete reactions? Consistent, yes, but not evidence for the hypothesis. If it turns out to be the case it would be a good example of the old double-whammy effect. Incomplete reactions contribute the unreacted Mono- and Di -Glycerides needed for the emulsion which in turn slow the settling of the Glycerin Mix which also contributes to the problem. The significance of whatever emerges may be dispelling a misconception. I know of people who view No problems with the wash as a sign that they achieved complete reactions. I've been told: I would have gotten emulsions if I had any unreacted oil. A buddy of mine recommends letting the BD settle for a few days a week if you can. It seems to take care of any problems. ?? I tell him: Do a QT try dissolving 25 ml of the BD in 225 ml of methanol. (12.5 ml BD in 112.5 ml methanol). I don't know why homebrewers resist QT-ing their fuel. Good Day to You, Tom P.S. I think we will eventually get to the bottom of the effect of glycerides on settling time. I've stocked up on BD for my car (passed QT) in anticipation of a push to make heating BD. I'll be able to get settling times on quite a few batches of poor quality BD, but won't be running any 'good quality batches, for comparison, for a few weeks. - Original Message - From: Joe Street To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 13, 2007 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin as an Emulsifier (was GlycerineSettling Time) Hi Tom; If the answers to questions 2 and 3 are yes then it would explain a lot. Then the anwer to question one could be that although the BD did not pass the QT if it was settled long enough that there is no glycerol it would be consistent with the emergent theory. No? Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: On Friday 8/10, I noted that: II. Glycerin Cocktail: Time to Separate (wash test) good quality BD + water + glycerin cocktail2 hours* poor quality BD + water + glycerin cocktail2 hours* It almost 2 days for the good quality BD to separate out. There was a very clear soap layer between the BD layer and the water layer. It's almost three days now and the poor quality BD still has an emulsion layer. More than half of the BD layer is emulsion. My thoughts: 1. Glycerin, itself, separated from the cocktail, is not an effective emulsifier 2. Presence of just the glycerin cocktail lengthens the time needed to separate water from BD 3. The glycerin cocktail in combination with even small amounts of unreacted Mono- and Di- Glycerides forms emulsions during wash. ***Keep in mind that my poor quality BD failed the Methanol Solubility Test (the Warnqvist Quality Test), in that the resulting mix was cloudy, and given time, an observable, but difficult to measure, amount of residue (unreacted glycerides) dropped out. There were not globs of residue. This was not real bad BD. It is used in my home heating system. Questions/Comments: 1. Unreacted Mono- and Di- Glycerides have a reputation as being very effective emulsifiers. They are present in the BD that I make to heat my house. Why don't they form emulsions when I stir wash this BD? 2. If glycerin cocktail (unsplit) is present, the same levels of Mono- and Di- Glycerides form emulsions, when they are only shaken . Does this represent a cumulative or synergistic effect? The cumulative/synergistic effect of glycerin cocktail and unreacted glycerides on emulsion formation would explain a couple of observations: a. Incomplete reactions coupled with short (6 - 8 hour) settling times often produce emulsions in the wash. Longer settling times 2 days or more no emulsions. The glycerin has settled out b. After breaking emulsions (1st and even 2nd wash), subsequent washes go well w/o emulsions forming. The Mono- and Di-Glycerides are still present, but the components of the glycerin cocktail have been, for the most part washed out. 3. Does the glycerin cocktail settle out of incomplete reactions
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin as an Emulsifier (was Glycerine Settling Time)
On Friday 8/10, I noted that: II. Glycerin Cocktail: Time to Separate (wash test) good quality BD + water + glycerin cocktail2 hours* poor quality BD + water + glycerin cocktail2 hours* It almost 2 days for the good quality BD to separate out. There was a very clear soap layer between the BD layer and the water layer. It's almost three days now and the poor quality BD still has an emulsion layer. More than half of the BD layer is emulsion. My thoughts: 1. Glycerin, itself, separated from the cocktail, is not an effective emulsifier 2. Presence of just the glycerin cocktail lengthens the time needed to separate water from BD 3. The glycerin cocktail in combination with even small amounts of unreacted Mono- and Di- Glycerides forms emulsions during wash. ***Keep in mind that my poor quality BD failed the Methanol Solubility Test (the Warnqvist Quality Test), in that the resulting mix was cloudy, and given time, an observable, but difficult to measure, amount of residue (unreacted glycerides) dropped out. There were not globs of residue. This was not real bad BD. It is used in my home heating system. Questions/Comments: 1. Unreacted Mono- and Di- Glycerides have a reputation as being very effective emulsifiers. They are present in the BD that I make to heat my house. Why don't they form emulsions when I stir wash this BD? 2. If glycerin cocktail (unsplit) is present, the same levels of Mono- and Di- Glycerides form emulsions, when they are only shaken . Does this represent a cumulative or synergistic effect? The cumulative/synergistic effect of glycerin cocktail and unreacted glycerides on emulsion formation would explain a couple of observations: a. Incomplete reactions coupled with short (6 - 8 hour) settling times often produce emulsions in the wash. Longer settling times 2 days or more no emulsions. The glycerin has settled out b. After breaking emulsions (1st and even 2nd wash), subsequent washes go well w/o emulsions forming. The Mono- and Di-Glycerides are still present, but the components of the glycerin cocktail have been, for the most part washed out. 3. Does the glycerin cocktail settle out of incomplete reactions more slowly than from complete reactions? Tom - Original Message - From: Thomas Kelly To: biofuel Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 2:46 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Glycerin as an Emulsifier (was Glycerine Settling Time) Andres, Jan, Joe, Keith, and anyone else who has been following the saga, It would seem that glycerine, itself, is not an effective emulsifier. I've spent the morning experimenting in the kitchen. I did Wash Tests on BD that passed the QT and BD that failed the QT. I tested one group with glycerine split from the cocktail (using Phosphoric Acid) and another group with unsplit Glycerin cocktail. Volumes used: Biodiesel 150 ml Water 150 ml Glycerin (split and unsplit) 4 ml Temp: 70F (~22C) I. Glycerin split from the cocktail (used Phosphoric Acid): Controls: Time for clear separation (min) good quality BD + water 1 - 2 poor quality BD + water 3 - 4 Experimental: good quality BD + water + glycerine (split) less than 5 poor quality BD + water + glycerine (split) less than 5 II Glycerin Cocktail: good quality BD + water + glycerine cocktail2 hours* poor quality BD + water + glycerine cocktail2 hours* * At 2 hours there is a thin layer of BD (1 - 2 mm) The rest appears to be an emulsion. Andres and Jan, you are correct. Glycerin, itself, did little to retard separation of BD and water. Something in the cocktail does seem to be an emulsifier. (The soaps??) Some questions remain: 1. The BD that failed the QT (incomplete reaction) was obtained from a tank that feeds my heating system. It contains unreacted glycerides, but does not produce an emulsion when shaken in water, nor did it produce emulsions when it was stir-washed. Why not? 2. At Joe Street's suggestion I took a sample of BD that had settled for about 10 hours. Twelve hours later, more glycerin had settled out. Today, still another 24 hours later, even more has settled out. Could this small amount of unsplit glycerine (with associated soaps) be the cause of the emulsions I got when I started making BD? It would explain why settling for a day or more seems to eliminate the problem. 3. Does the glycerine mix (or soaps) settle out more slowly in BD from incomplete reactions? Tom -- ___ Biofuel mailing list
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin as an Emulsifier (was Glycerine Settling Time)
Hi Tom; If the answers to questions 2 and 3 are yes then it would explain a lot. Then the anwer to question one could be that although the BD did not pass the QT if it was settled long enough that there is no glycerol it would be consistent with the emergent theory. No? Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: On Friday 8/10, I noted that: II. Glycerin Cocktail: Time to Separate (wash test) good quality BD + water + glycerin cocktail2 hours* poor quality BD + water + glycerin cocktail2 hours* It almost 2 days for the good quality BD to separate out. There was a very clear soap layer between the BD layer and the water layer. It's almost three days now and the poor quality BD still has an emulsion layer. More than half of the BD layer is emulsion. My thoughts: 1. Glycerin, itself, separated from the cocktail, is not an effective emulsifier 2. Presence of just the glycerin cocktail lengthens the time needed to separate water from BD 3. The glycerin cocktail in combination with even small amounts of unreacted Mono- and Di- Glycerides forms emulsions during wash. ***Keep in mind that my poor quality BD failed the Methanol Solubility Test (the Warnqvist Quality Test), in that the resulting mix was cloudy, and given time, an observable, but difficult to measure, amount of residue (unreacted glycerides) dropped out. There were not globs of residue. This was not real bad BD. It is used in my home heating system. Questions/Comments: 1. Unreacted Mono- and Di- Glycerides have a reputation as being very effective emulsifiers. They are present in the BD that I make to heat my house. Why don't they form emulsions when I stir wash this BD? 2. If glycerin cocktail (unsplit) is present, the same levels of Mono- and Di- Glycerides form emulsions, when they are only shaken . Does this represent a cumulative or synergistic effect? The cumulative/synergistic effect of glycerin cocktail and unreacted glycerides on emulsion formation would explain a couple of observations: a. Incomplete reactions coupled with short (6 - 8 hour) settling times often produce emulsions in the wash. Longer settling times 2 days or more no emulsions. The glycerin has settled out b. After breaking emulsions (1st and even 2nd wash), subsequent washes go well w/o emulsions forming. The Mono- and Di-Glycerides are still present, but the components of the glycerin cocktail have been, for the most part washed out. 3. Does the glycerin cocktail settle out of incomplete reactions more slowly than from complete reactions? Tom - Original Message - *From:* Thomas Kelly mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Friday, August 10, 2007 2:46 PM *Subject:* [Biofuel] Glycerin as an Emulsifier (was Glycerine Settling Time) Andres, Jan, Joe, Keith, and anyone else who has been following the saga, It would seem that glycerine, itself, is not an effective emulsifier. I've spent the morning experimenting in the kitchen. I did Wash Tests on BD that passed the QT and BD that failed the QT. I tested one group with glycerine split from the cocktail (using Phosphoric Acid) and another group with unsplit Glycerin cocktail. Volumes used: Biodiesel 150 ml Water 150 ml Glycerin (split and unsplit) 4 ml Temp: 70F (~22C) I. Glycerin split from the cocktail (used Phosphoric Acid): Controls: Time for clear separation (min) good quality BD + water 1 - 2 poor quality BD + water 3 - 4 Experimental: good quality BD + water + glycerine (split) less than 5 poor quality BD + water + glycerine (split) less than 5 II Glycerin Cocktail: good quality BD + water + glycerine cocktail2 hours* poor quality BD + water + glycerine cocktail2 hours* * At 2 hours there is a thin layer of BD (1 - 2 mm) The rest appears to be an emulsion. Andres and Jan, you are correct. Glycerin, itself, did little to retard separation of BD and water. Something in the cocktail does seem to be an emulsifier. (The soaps??) Some questions remain: 1. The BD that failed the QT (incomplete reaction) was obtained from a tank that feeds my heating system. It contains unreacted glycerides, but does not produce an emulsion when shaken in water, nor did it produce emulsions when it was stir-washed. Why not? 2. At Joe Street's suggestion I took a sample of BD that had settled for about 10 hours. Twelve hours later, more glycerin had settled out. Today, still another 24 hours
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin as an Emulsifier (was Glycerine Settling Time)
Thanks a lot Tom for all that work in a short time. You have really shed some light on this discussion. Jumping to your questions at the end, it seems clear then that Jan and Andres were right on and it must be the soap and mono-diglycerides etc rather than the glycerine itself which is the culprit.. It also seems to confirm or at least not in conflict with the theory that glycerin settles more slowly from incomplete reactions. I have never done anything with straight glycerol just the cocktail but it does contain soap al lots of other things. Small amounts of it have a large impact and it appears that incomplete reactions result in a significant amount of it remaining in the fuel after a prolonged period. I normally allow about 12 hours for settling (at least) and when the reaction is good an agressive pump wash is no problem. One of the aims of my project was to reduce cycle time so I really don't want to wait 24 or more hours because sometimes time is not free as Keith had put it. Was going to add more but time's up and the door to my cage is OPEN! Have a good weekend Joe Thomas Kelly wrote: Andres, Jan, Joe, Keith, and anyone else who has been following the saga, It would seem that glycerine, itself, is not an effective emulsifier. I've spent the morning experimenting in the kitchen. I did Wash Tests on BD that passed the QT and BD that failed the QT. I tested one group with glycerine split from the cocktail (using Phosphoric Acid) and another group with unsplit Glycerin cocktail. Volumes used: Biodiesel 150 ml Water 150 ml Glycerin (split and unsplit) 4 ml Temp: 70F (~22C) I. Glycerin split from the cocktail (used Phosphoric Acid): Controls: Time for clear separation (min) good quality BD + water 1 - 2 poor quality BD + water 3 - 4 Experimental: good quality BD + water + glycerine (split) less than 5 poor quality BD + water + glycerine (split) less than 5 II Glycerin Cocktail: good quality BD + water + glycerine cocktail2 hours* poor quality BD + water + glycerine cocktail2 hours* * At 2 hours there is a thin layer of BD (1 - 2 mm) The rest appears to be an emulsion. Andres and Jan, you are correct. Glycerin, itself, did little to retard separation of BD and water. Something in the cocktail does seem to be an emulsifier. (The soaps??) Some questions remain: 1. The BD that failed the QT (incomplete reaction) was obtained from a tank that feeds my heating system. It contains unreacted glycerides, but does not produce an emulsion when shaken in water, nor did it produce emulsions when it was stir-washed. Why not? 2. At Joe Street's suggestion I took a sample of BD that had settled for about 10 hours. Twelve hours later, more glycerin had settled out. Today, still another 24 hours later, even more has settled out. Could this small amount of unsplit glycerine (with associated soaps) be the cause of the emulsions I got when I started making BD? It would explain why settling for a day or more seems to eliminate the problem. 3. Does the glycerine mix (or soaps) settle out more slowly in BD from incomplete reactions? Tom ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] glycerin blocks
- Original Message - From: TLC Orchids and Such [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2005 10:08 PM Subject: [Biofuel] glycerin blocks Can you make glycerin blocks from non gelling glycerin? I have about 20 gallons of liquid glycerin and about 5 Gal. that gelled. Jeremy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
re: [Biofuel] glycerin blocks
Jeremy, Can you make glycerin blocks from non gelling glycerin? I have about 20 gallons of liquid glycerin and about 5 Gal. that gelled. Jeremy Pure glycerol will melt somewhere around 20C I believe. However, if you have any impurites (espically Methanol) then it will stay in a liquid state at a lower temp. Is your glyc. kept air tight? Does it (presuming you acquired it from transesterification) still have the [K|Na]OH still in it? Regards, -Dave ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] glycerin blocks
yes it is air tight. I haven't done methanol recovery on the glycerin and it still has the naoh in it. I saw the five gallon methanol recovery still (for glycerin) on journey to forever's site. but others say to leave the methanol in to make a more flammable log. It also is still caustic. Thanks for the reply Jeremy - Original Message - From: DHAJOGLO [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:55 AM Subject: re: [Biofuel] glycerin blocks Jeremy, Can you make glycerin blocks from non gelling glycerin? I have about 20 gallons of liquid glycerin and about 5 Gal. that gelled. Jeremy Pure glycerol will melt somewhere around 20C I believe. However, if you have any impurites (espically Methanol) then it will stay in a liquid state at a lower temp. Is your glyc. kept air tight? Does it (presuming you acquired it from transesterification) still have the [K|Na]OH still in it? Regards, -Dave ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] glycerin and electricity
dear keith your abstract massage It was a forwarded message. is interesting what do you meant by electricity produced by digestion? is it biogas production by using glycerin? Dr.Paulraj It seems clear enough: Forwarded message from a Journey to Forever reader. Best wishes Keith Hello, I work at a wastewater treatment plant and I was doing a search on glycerin and biofuels and came across your website. It's has good information thanks. Here's another use of glycerin: Our treatment is accepting the glycerin from a biofuel producer, we feed it to our digesters, slowly very slowly. The addition of glycerin has dramatically increased our gas production, that we run all three engines that produce electricity for our plant and occasionally need to flare off the excess methane (we have 4 flares). This might be of interest to your readers that use digestion for electricity. You use digestion to produce methane to power a generator to produce electricity. There were some subsequent messages if you want to read the whole thread. Best wishes Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making
can some glycerin be added to new oil to make a soap? Farmer Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making
Glycerol is an alcohol. Fats/oils are required to make soap. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making can some glycerin be added to new oil to make a soap? Farmer Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making
Paul, Do you mean glycerin or the glycerin layer as there is a big difference? Andy On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 23:19:28 -0800 (PST), [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: can some glycerin be added to new oil to make a soap? Farmer Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making
You should be able to use the left over lye in the glycerin layer to make soap, but it may end up have way too much glycerin in it and end up be drying for the skin. Andy On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:40:12 -0500, Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Glycerin can be added to any soap. But it can't be used to make soap. Glycerol is an alcohol. Fats/oils are required to make soap. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making can some glycerin be added to new oil to make a soap? Farmer Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand. Now includes pop-up blocker! Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today! ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making
the other night having a good look through it. Simple and efficient. maybe I could make some ethanol (vodka) for tinctures :-) or a fuel additive, hehe. Luc - Original Message - From: JD2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 5:22 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making - Original Message - From: Legal Eagle G'day JD; Using a simple to make condenser. There is an example at the bottom of the 5 gallon processor at JtF http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor5.html . I have just finished one of these and am hooking it up to a pressure cooker. This is yet experimental, so don't run out and do it. The first use worked so so. Is this the same as the absolute alcohol process?Alcohol from methanol. Or is that something different again? JD2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making
- Original Message - From: Legal Eagle G'day JD; Using a simple to make condenser. There is an example at the bottom of the 5 gallon processor at JtF http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor5.html . I have just finished one of these and am hooking it up to a pressure cooker. This is yet experimental, so don't run out and do it. The first use worked so so. Is this the same as the absolute alcohol process?Alcohol from methanol. Or is that something different again? JD2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making
You don't lose anything as you leave it in there on purpose, it adds to the combustability of the glycerine log. Luc -Or you could just recover the alcohol before burning. Andy ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making
If you have a sealed container with a vent line, source of hot water (above 75C) and cold water - yes. Run the hot water around the sealed container or put the sealed container in bath of hot water. This will boil off the MeOH - add hot water as needed. The vapors will travel out the vent. The vent line can be coiled and placed in a cold water bath and the open end of the coil then leads into your MeOH recovery vessel. As the coil fills with MeOH it will push out the liquid MeOH into the recovery vessel. It would be good to keep that vessel cold as well and have the outlet of the tubing go down to the bottom of that tank so any left over vapors will bubble through cold MeOH and condense (there shouldn't be any... but). Goggle for batch distillation and find out what each X from a XXX jug means. Andy -Or you could just recover the alcohol before burning. Andy By evaporation...Is there an easy, non-expensive way of doing this using standard eqipment that could be purchased anywhere in the world (i.e. the UK)? JD2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making
- Original Message - From: JD2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making By evaporation...Is there an easy, non-expensive way of doing this using standard eqipment that could be purchased anywhere in the world (i.e. the UK)? Using a simple to make condenser. There is an example at the bottom of the 5 gallon processor at JtF http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor5.html . I have just finished one of these and am hooking it up to a pressure cooker. This is yet experimental, so don't run out and do it. The first use worked so so. It evaporated the methanol although the lid wasn't secure enough and I got leakage of methanol and around a heat source that is counter-indicated as the stuff is very volatile, so I am modifying the lid of the pressure cooker to be more hermetically sealed in order to send all the vapours into the condenser. My condenser is almost identical to the one at JtF except that I used T fittings for the water inlet and drain. The in/out side of the T is threaded for standard 2 and so I used a fine thread bung cap with 3/4 thread incorporated in the cap and plumbed a hose barb to it and then clamped the hose onto the barb. Sealing the end caps was also a challenge. I tried epoxy, but it cracked and leaked, so I then remembered using a thing called Goop http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/infxtra/infgoo.shtm to fix a bit of trim that had come loose on the Benz, and this is cold weather and damp as well and it is still holding perfectly a year later, so I Goop-ed the copper tubing exiting the end caps with this stuff and it is holding up quite nicely, no leaks. I hope to have pics available soon.I have pics of the condenser but am waiting until I can get the unit working properly before posting about it all. Luc JD2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making
- Original Message - From: Andrew Cunningham -Or you could just recover the alcohol before burning. Andy By evaporation...Is there an easy, non-expensive way of doing this using standard eqipment that could be purchased anywhere in the world (i.e. the UK)? JD2005 ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making
Tracy, I am currently taking classes towards a Masters in Health Product Regulation. I have spent a lot of time with various FDA regulations and the way I would interpret most is that it has to more than 50% of the final product. Therefore you could take pure soap and mix 49% dirt into it and sell it as soap. Not many people would buy 49% dirt soap, but it would meet the FDA's description of Soap. I would have to lookup the definition of cosmetics to be sure, but the main differences between soaps, cosmetics and drugs are what you claim it does. You are correct about the soap reaction, by-product glycerin can be added to soap but cannot be made into soap. My only suggestion on how to determine the amount of lye to use would be to do small trial batches or some form of titration. Andy On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:50:47 -0800 (PST), Jeremy Tracy Longworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My name is Tracy, and I am Jeremy's wife. I am also a soapmaker. There are a few things that concern me about making soap with the by-product of biodiesel. First, imho, the wvo is not exactly the cleanest stuff to begin with and I think there might be problems with the government in producing soap with it. The FDA defines soap as a product in which most of the nonvolatile matter consists of an alkali salt of fatty acids and whose detergent properties are due to these alkali-fatty acid compounds. If I read the regulations correctly, if a soap is made mostly of anything else, it is then considered a cosmetic and comes under certain regulations. True soap is not regulated by the FDA: cosmetics are. Secondly, soap cannot be made from primarily glycerin. Glycerin is a by-product of soapmaking and is left in handmade soaps or extracted from commercially made soaps. The soap is formed from the reaction of a caustic soda and fatty acids. If anyone is truly making soap from the by-product of making biodiesel, then it would stand to reason that there are left-over oils in the glycerin. Third, there is no way to know for certain what kinds of oils comprise WVO. Many restaurants don't always use the same kind of oil. That being the case, I can't see how one could accurately figure the amount of lye needed in order to achieve proper saponification. Every oil requires a different amount of lye in order for it to properly saponify. If one were to use too much lye, the resultant soap would be lye heavy and too harsh for anyone to use. I did also see written that the lye was to be added to warm water, I believe. I, and the soapmakers I am in contact with, add their lye to cold water. When the lye is added to water, the resulting solution can reach temperatures near boiling at times. If one was to start out with warm water, the solution could volcano and create quite a mess, not to mention it could also cause harm to anyone around at the time. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making
- Original Message - From: JD2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making Thank you for this thread. It is one of the best threads at the moment because it is constructive. When you make boifuel you are left with alot of glycerin we all know that. What we don't know is what this glycerin can be utilised for. Also if the glycerin is from a wvo reaction to make rem or ree whether it is suitable for making soap or not. Yes, maybe, and that is the experimenting part :-) There is a lot of info at JtF about soap making too, have you snooped it ? Also about seperating the FFA's from the glycerine. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html JD2005 Presumeably lye water would be realy an ideal method of making soap from glycerin. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making
Thank you for this thread. It is one of the best threads at the moment because it is constructive. When you make boifuel you are left with alot of glycerin we all know that. What we don't know is what this glycerin can be utilised for. Also if the glycerin is from a wvo reaction to make rem or ree whether it is suitable for making soap or not. JD2005 Presumeably lye water would be realy an ideal method of making soap from glycerin. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerin soap making
Ok Thanks, The burning idea with the milk cartons looks really good to us here. We're burning wood and stuff on an old oxfordshire range here at the moment.I wouldn't put one on untill we'd got a really hot fire though because of the poison fumes it can cause.Also you stand stand to lose methanol or ethanol that way unless you separate that out. The FFA separation with some kind of expensive acid I reject on the grounds of expense. Unless, I could (I havn't got any methanol or a license for ethenol yet.) find a market for the pure glycerin. JD2005 - Original Message - From:Legal Eagle G'day JD; Yes, maybe, and that is the experimenting part :-) There is a lot of info at JtF about soap making too, have you snooped it ? Also about seperating the FFA's from the glycerine. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html JD2005 Presumeably lye water would be realy an ideal method of making soap from glycerin. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin use
No. First, you would need to find to incorporate an emuslifying agent to get the glycerol to mix with the oil. Second, you would also be adding a water fraction unless you distilled it out first. (The presumption is being made that you are speaking of glycerol/ffa separation as discussed at http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html ) Third, you would be increasing the ratio of glycerol to fatty acids by adding it to the already-glycerol-bearing glycerides (SVO). Aside from that, one has to ask why would a person extract glycerol from glycerides (make biodiesel) and then add a fluid that is as thick as molasses back to a fluid that is already as viscous a fluid as SVO or WVO? Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Mccall Tom WP US [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 10:36 AM Subject: [biofuel] glycerin use After one removed the water could the glycerin be mixed with SVO and burned in a Diesel? Tom [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin buyers?
Depends upon what you call large. Anything glycerin accumulating from over 50 gallons per week of biodiesel production should be given or sold to the nearest glycerin refiner, after FFA recovery, of course. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Kim Nguyen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin buyers? How does one get rid of the glycerol from bio-diesel production?, especially in larger quantities...is it more cost effective and environmentally responsible to invest in glycerol processing equipment so one doesn't have to discard the entire mixture? Kim Sac, CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/10/03 12:53AM Is there anyone in Western Canada that will buy the glycerin I get from my diesel? Brent Sask. Canada You'll be very lucky to sell it in the raw form. It's not just glycerine, as Todd already explained to you: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=24684list=BIOFUEL If you separate it you'll get three distinct layers, the catalyst at the bottom, industrial-grade glycerine in the middle, about 95% pure, and FFA on top, and you might be able to sell this separated glycerine. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html Separating glycerine/FFAs Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/aM1XQD/od7FAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin buyers?
How does one get rid of the glycerol from bio-diesel production?, especially in larger quantities...is it more cost effective and environmentally responsible to invest in glycerol processing equipment so one doesn't have to discard the entire mixture? Kim Sac, CA [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/10/03 12:53AM Is there anyone in Western Canada that will buy the glycerin I get from my diesel? Brent Sask. Canada You'll be very lucky to sell it in the raw form. It's not just glycerine, as Todd already explained to you: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=24684list=BIOFUEL If you separate it you'll get three distinct layers, the catalyst at the bottom, industrial-grade glycerine in the middle, about 95% pure, and FFA on top, and you might be able to sell this separated glycerine. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html Separating glycerine/FFAs Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/aM1XQD/od7FAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin buyers?
How much is the commercial value of glycerine anyhow? Mark, England = Mark Schofield M.Sc B.Eng DHE AMIMechE t 07944 401662 e [EMAIL PROTECTED] Autogas Conversions and LPG Pumps __ Yahoo! Plus For a better Internet experience http://www.yahoo.co.uk/btoffer Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/BVVfoB/hP.FAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin buyers?
Is there anyone in Western Canada that will buy the glycerin I get from my diesel? Brent Sask. Canada You'll be very lucky to sell it in the raw form. It's not just glycerine, as Todd already explained to you: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=24684list=BIOFUEL If you separate it you'll get three distinct layers, the catalyst at the bottom, industrial-grade glycerine in the middle, about 95% pure, and FFA on top, and you might be able to sell this separated glycerine. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html Separating glycerine/FFAs Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/YoVfrB/XP.FAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
The glycerin layer is not just glycerin, nor is it primarily glycerin. The rule of thumb is ~79 mililiters of glycerin for every liter of feedstock. This actually makes the glycerin layer more of a soap layer than anything else, at least if you name something by its highest constituent volume or weight. The glycerin layer is a combination of alcohol, soap and glycerin. The more alcohol you use in your process, the less viscous the layer will be. If you use potassium hydroxide rather than sodium hydroxide, the layer will be slightly less viscous. (Potassium hydroxide is generally used to make liquid soaps, while sodium hydroxide is generally used to make bar soaps.) The more FFAs in the parent oil the more viscous the layer will be, as the ratio of soap increases relative to the amount of glycerin and excess alcohol. And the type of FFAs and their ratio to each other will determine how hard or thin the glycerin layer stays. A feedstock high in palmitic and stearic acids will yield a harder soap (or more viscous glycerin layer) than a feedstock with lower ratios. Eeach feedstock will give you a byproduct of different physical properties. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: brent3369 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2003 3:59 PM Subject: [biofuel] glycerin Ok, reheated the glycerin I got from my first batch. It looks very rich. It is thinner than molasses at room temp. Why would it remain so thin? The information I have found suggests that it should be solid, or close to it, at room temp. The diesel itself has a ph of 8.5, so I will bubble wash it and see what happens. Brent Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/BVVfoB/hP.FAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin from Physic nut
Hi can anybody tell me wether glycerin made from the Jatropha Carcus(Physic nut) is Toxic or not. I want to use Jatropha oil for making biodiesel. I want to know wether glycerin obtained from this process has the same market value as glycerin produced from other oils. Information on Jatropha is found at www.jatropha.org Regards Raj Hello Raj I suggest you should ask Reinhard Henning that, who runs the jatropha site. His address is: [EMAIL PROTECTED] But I should think it wouldn't be the glycerol fraction that's toxic, and once it's split off from the triglyceride and refined, it should be fine. If it's not refined, well, I don't know. If you simply separate the FFA and catalyst from the glycerine you should have industrial-grade glycerine of about 95% purity. You might be able to sell it as-is to refiners. http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycsep.html Separating glycerine/FFAs By the way, you might be interested in this post to the Stoves list at REPP on jatropha from a researcher in India. From: A.D. Karve [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Harmon Seaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Jatropha oil as household energy (forwarding Henning) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 21:29:28 +0530 Dear Mr. Seaver, I have conducted field experiments on both castor and Jatropha. I had already mentioned in a previous E-mail, that Jatropha was tested rather widely in India and was given up because it was not found to be as high yielding as the traditional oil crops in India. I do not know how it behaves in other countries, but under our agroclimatic and edaphic conditions, Jatropha produces much more vegetative matter than fruits. At harvest, one has to search for the occasional fruit hidden behind all the foliage that this plant produces. It is found all over India as a wild plant. India has some 25 uncultivated species of trees that yield non-edible oil. The seed of the wild trees is collected by villagers and sold to merchants attending the weekly village markets, but no farmer would ever think of growing them as a crop, because all of them are lower yielding than the cultivated oil plants such as peanut, soybean, sunflower, safflower, sesame, various mustards and rapes, coconut, etc. Among the seasonal oilseeds, hybrid castor is the highest yielding (2.5 tonnes oil per ha), but it is not an edible oil. The highest yield of edible oil, also about 2.5 tonnes per ha, is obtained from coconut. Oil palm, which yields 6 tonnes of oil per hectare in Malaysia, was tested and given up as low yielding under Indian conditions. Yours A.D.Karve Best wishes Keith Addison Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Fwd: Re: [biofuel] glycerin use
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], David [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Get rid of the methanol and it makes great hand cleaner/de greaser David At 07:37 PM 30/05/2002 +0100, you wrote: I reply to: I am a member of this group since 2000, but I had no quastion until now. I have a big problem what to do with glycerin. I am pripare to buy a expensive (cca.60.000,00 $) vakum destilater to puryfai (clean) glycerin, but do not now for what use is than that glycerin. I make glycerin from waste wegetable oil. Please help me! Thanks egon As with a lot of info on the net, there seems to be a lot of contradictions. Glycerin has been said to be a valuable biproduct, but retails at £750.00 per tonne (GBP) ex Albion chemicals, UK, which is not that fantastic for the producer. Other possibilities discussed have been for fertiliser (not a good option for myself) or as a furnace fuel for heating oil for drying or getting to reaction temperature. Nobody seems to have come forward with a good design for the furnace, which would involve preheating the fuel to about 500 degrees C to get a clean burn, but I peronnally think this is the best option and intend to persue this avenue. My stock pile of glycerine are beginning to become a problem and i don't want to dump it as waste. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- End forwarded message ---
RE: [biofuel] glycerin use
HYPERLINK http://www.herbalhut.com/mfrs/hh_raw_materials.asphttp://www.herbalhut.com /mfrs/hh_raw_materials.aspÊsells it for $46.96 a gallon wholesale Ê Ê Sell it as hand lotion? Glycerin is sold in the states as Corn Husker's Lotion. Need some 1/2 pint bottles and a bottling machine. It has broad uses. Kirk Ê Ê ÊPerhaps added value??xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / MANUFACTURE OF POLYGLYCOLS FROM CRUDE GLYCERIN Ê G. HILLION, I. DURAND, R. STERN, G. DA COSTA ÊAbstract Ê ÊÊÊ The aim of this study was to develop a new process for the synthesis of polyglycerols from crude glycerin. Glycerin is the main by-product of the BiodieselØ process and therefore a cheap and in big quantities available raw material. ÊÊÊ Three different qualities of crude glycerin are available on the market (basic, sulphuric and chlorhydric glycerins) from the two French DIESTERØ units in ROUEN and in COMPIEGNE. From sulphuric glycerin, the polyglycerols obtained contains a very low concentration of soluble salts. Besides, it causes no corrosion problems like chlorhydric glycerin. The nature of the soluble salts in glycerin determines the polyglycerol distributions and the mixtures obtained have different compositions compared with the commercial products. The basic glycerin contains big amounts of sodium soaps and yields polyglycerols with 25% (by weight) of cyclic compounds. Thus, sulphuric glycerin is certainly the best raw material. The polycondensation of sulphuric glycerin is carried out in presence of sodium sulphate (5% max) with sodium hydroxide within a temperature range of 250 to 265¿CØ. Conversion rates are determined by measuring the quantity of water which is produced during the reaction. For example, the synthesis of theoretical decaglycerol would lead to a weight loss of 18% by generation of water. For decaglycerol production a theoretical yield of 86.9% (by weight) has been determined. A yield of 79.4% was obtained during the industrial test. Different compositions of polyglycerols can be obtained with different degrees of polycondensation. ÊÊÊ The first step of the downstream process is a filtration which partly removes the residual salts. The removal of the remaining salts by ion exchange resins improves as well the colour of the product. ÊÊÊ Polyglycerol esters can be obtained by addition of fatty acids or methyl esters at 190¿C - 220¿C to the crude mixture which still contains the catalyst. In this case, the salts can be removed after the neutralisation of the basic catalyst. Ê Estimated cost of polyglycerols are depending on the price of crude glycerin and the capacity of the unit. The manufacturing costs of crude polyglycerols (without purification by ion exchange resins) decrease from 16 to 10FØ/kg if the annual productions increase from 100Øt/a to 500Øt/a. For information, market price varies between 15 and 32F/kg depending of the purity and the composition of the product. Ê Polyglycerols in the ester forms, are good emulsifying agents. Their main uses concern food industry and cosmetics. -Original Message- From: goat industries [ HYPERLINK mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] o.uk] Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 12:38 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] glycerin use I reply to: I am a member of this group since 2000, but I had no quastion until now. I have a big problem what to do with glycerin. I am pripare to buy a expensive (cca.60.000,00 $) vakum destilater to puryfai (clean) glycerin, but do not now for what use is than that glycerin. I make glycerinÊ from waste wegetable oil. Please help me! Thanks egon As with a lot of info on the net, there seems to be a lot of contradictions. Glycerin has been said to be a valuable biproduct, but retails at £750.00 per tonne (GBP) ex Albion chemicals, UK, which is not that fantastic for the producer. Other possibilities discussed have been for fertiliser (not a good option for myself) or as a furnace fuel for heating oil for drying or getting to reaction temperature. Nobody seems to have come forward with a good design for the furnace, which would involve preheating the fuel to about 500 degrees C to get a clean burn, but I peronnally think this is the best option and intend to persue this avenue. My stock pile of glycerine are beginning to become a problem and i don't want to dump it as waste. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.363 / Virus Database: 201 - Release Date: 5/21/2002 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-
Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton
Thanks Steve for the info. Barryt - Original Message - From: steve spence To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 10:34 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton An older unit of pressure is the Torr ( 1 Torr = 1 mmHg ). One atmosphere is ca. 760 Torr ( i.e. 1 Torr = 133.3 Pa ). Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: Barryt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 7:20 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton Martin, What is 760 torr etc? I haven't got a clue what that means. Barryt - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton 760 torr, 290 degrees C 20 torr, 182 degrees C .0025 torr, 50 degrees C This is the data I could find, I am assuming it would be quite difficult to do, you would need a good vacuum pump and a whole lot of heat energy. -Martin Klingensmith --- anton and federica [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: can anyone help me find a table of temperature to pressure in order to figure out what temp I might use to distill glycerin? Has anyone tried it? anton __ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Enter to Win! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton
Thanks Ray Barryt - Original Message - From: Ray Hough To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 5:00 AM Subject: Re: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton Torr is about the same as mm. of Hg pressure. 760 is one atmosphere. If you set up a simple still it will distill at 290 C. Hook up a vacuum pump to lower the pressure and it will distill at lower temperatures. Ray. At 6/17/01 9:20:00 PM, you wrote: Martin, What is 760 torr etc? I haven't got a clue what that means. Barryt - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton 760 torr, 290 degrees C 20 torr, 182 degrees C .0025 torr, 50 degrees C This is the data I could find, I am assuming it would be quite difficult to do, you would need a good vacuum pump and a whole lot of heat energy. -Martin Klingensmith --- anton and federica [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: can anyone help me find a table of temperature to pressure in order to figure out what temp I might use to distill glycerin? Has anyone tried it? anton __ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Enter to Win! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Ray in Atlanta, GA most people occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and continue on as if nothing had ever happened Winston Churchill Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton
Torr is about the same as mm. of Hg pressure. 760 is one atmosphere. If you set up a simple still it will distill at 290 C. Hook up a vacuum pump to lower the pressure and it will distill at lower temperatures. Ray. At 6/17/01 9:20:00 PM, you wrote: Martin, What is 760 torr etc? I haven't got a clue what that means. Barryt - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton 760 torr, 290 degrees C 20 torr, 182 degrees C .0025 torr, 50 degrees C This is the data I could find, I am assuming it would be quite difficult to do, you would need a good vacuum pump and a whole lot of heat energy. -Martin Klingensmith --- anton and federica [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: can anyone help me find a table of temperature to pressure in order to figure out what temp I might use to distill glycerin? Has anyone tried it? anton __ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Enter to Win! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Ray in Atlanta, GA most people occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and continue on as if nothing had ever happened Winston Churchill Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton
An older unit of pressure is the Torr ( 1 Torr = 1 mmHg ). One atmosphere is ca. 760 Torr ( i.e. 1 Torr = 133.3 Pa ). Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: Barryt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2001 7:20 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton Martin, What is 760 torr etc? I haven't got a clue what that means. Barryt - Original Message - From: Martin Klingensmith To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 16, 2001 10:22 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin distillaton 760 torr, 290 degrees C 20 torr, 182 degrees C .0025 torr, 50 degrees C This is the data I could find, I am assuming it would be quite difficult to do, you would need a good vacuum pump and a whole lot of heat energy. -Martin Klingensmith --- anton and federica [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: can anyone help me find a table of temperature to pressure in order to figure out what temp I might use to distill glycerin? Has anyone tried it? anton __ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Enter to Win! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol
Thanks Marc for your contribution with this oldtimer. If you can scan the relevant pages, I«ll appreciate it very much. Regards. Ricardo Tournier - Original Message - From: F. Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 12:36 AM Subject: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol All the recent traffic about glycerol and about absolute alcohol was making my brain itch - I had seen something, somewhere that actually tied those two things together. Here it is, from E. Boullanger: Distillerie Agricole et Industrielle (Paris: Ballire, 1924), translated rather freely from the French: But according to Mr. Mariller, the use of water-adsorbing substances instead of alcohol adsorbing substances [for separating alcohol/water mixtures by adsorption] must necessarily be more economical, for with alcohol-adsorbents water, the third substance [adsorbent] and the alcohol/ substance mixture must be evaporated and the mixture subsequently fractionated to recover pure alcohol. This results in additional vaporization which penalizes the overall cost of the method. Contrarily, with water adsorbents, only water and a little entrained alcohol (if any) must be subsequently vaporized; steam consumption then falls to 30 kg per hectoliter of alcohol, or approximately frs 0.40 at the current [1924] price of coal. These considerations led Mr. Mariller to his absolute alcohol production process by dehydration using glycerine. Alcoholic vapors passing through pure glycerine yield 99.2¡ alcohol directly, and merely adding potassium carbonate, for example, to the glycerine is sufficient for easily obtaining 99.8¡. The glycerine and the salt that it holds in solution are regenerated and returned to the circuit. It goes on to describe in detail the Mariller-Granger process and the apparatus used in it. If this is of interest to anybody, I will continue the translation, or simply scan the relevant pages for any francophone out there. It has not escaped me that this information begs the question of how to obtain glycerine of sufficient purity in the first place. Obviously, further research is needed. If we're lucky, the impurities in the crude glycerine from ethyl ester production will be benign. and the crude stock will thus be usable in alcohol production as is. If not, perhaps only one impurity that can be easily removed is a problem. Perhaps... Best to all, Marc de Piolenc Iligan, Philippines Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol
Thanks Marc for your contribution with this oldtimer. If you can scan the relevant pages, I«ll appreciate it very much. Regards. Ricardo Tournier Yes, indeed, thankyou Marc. If we could nail down the purifying and impurities issues, the whole process could be almost self-contained, the holy grail. Any chance of your translating it to English, Ricardo? :-) Maybe Babelfish would do most of the work (definitely not all). By the way, Ken Provost, if you're reading this, salt (sodium chloride) is cheap and obtainable enough, and easy to dry. Any idea how much water a pound/kilo of salt would absorb? Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ - Original Message - From: F. Marc de Piolenc [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 12:36 AM Subject: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol All the recent traffic about glycerol and about absolute alcohol was making my brain itch - I had seen something, somewhere that actually tied those two things together. Here it is, from E. Boullanger: Distillerie Agricole et Industrielle (Paris: Ballire, 1924), translated rather freely from the French: But according to Mr. Mariller, the use of water-adsorbing substances instead of alcohol adsorbing substances [for separating alcohol/water mixtures by adsorption] must necessarily be more economical, for with alcohol-adsorbents water, the third substance [adsorbent] and the alcohol/ substance mixture must be evaporated and the mixture subsequently fractionated to recover pure alcohol. This results in additional vaporization which penalizes the overall cost of the method. Contrarily, with water adsorbents, only water and a little entrained alcohol (if any) must be subsequently vaporized; steam consumption then falls to 30 kg per hectoliter of alcohol, or approximately frs 0.40 at the current [1924] price of coal. These considerations led Mr. Mariller to his absolute alcohol production process by dehydration using glycerine. Alcoholic vapors passing through pure glycerine yield 99.2¡ alcohol directly, and merely adding potassium carbonate, for example, to the glycerine is sufficient for easily obtaining 99.8¡. The glycerine and the salt that it holds in solution are regenerated and returned to the circuit. It goes on to describe in detail the Mariller-Granger process and the apparatus used in it. If this is of interest to anybody, I will continue the translation, or simply scan the relevant pages for any francophone out there. It has not escaped me that this information begs the question of how to obtain glycerine of sufficient purity in the first place. Obviously, further research is needed. If we're lucky, the impurities in the crude glycerine from ethyl ester production will be benign. and the crude stock will thus be usable in alcohol production as is. If not, perhaps only one impurity that can be easily removed is a problem. Perhaps... Best to all, Marc de Piolenc Iligan, Philippines Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol
By the way, Ken Provost, if you're reading this, salt (sodium chloride) is cheap and obtainable enough, and easy to dry. Any idea how much water a pound/kilo of salt would absorb? I read EVERYTHING :-)! Thx for reminding me -- I actually bought a big box of rock salt to play with, and it's been languishing in the pantry. I'll get on it this weekend -- it wouldn't have to be very efficient, considering the cost, as long as you don't lose too much alcohol just sticking to the crystals... Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol
As far as I know, sodium chloride cristals are naturaly anhidrous. It seems to me that this will not work. FYI I tried to dehydrate 95% ethanol with Copper Sulphate, that has 5 mols H2O, previously dehydrated by calcination. It didn«t work. You need a lot of anhydrous salt and you loose a lot of alcohol sticked to the crystals. Later I thought to use anhydrous calcium chloride, but now there are several ideas discussed in this forum, that I think will work better. Ref. the translation, Marc will do it much better !! Ricardo. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 1:23 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol By the way, Ken Provost, if you're reading this, salt (sodium chloride) is cheap and obtainable enough, and easy to dry. Any idea how much water a pound/kilo of salt would absorb? I read EVERYTHING :-)! Thx for reminding me -- I actually bought a big box of rock salt to play with, and it's been languishing in the pantry. I'll get on it this weekend -- it wouldn't have to be very efficient, considering the cost, as long as you don't lose too much alcohol just sticking to the crystals... Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol
Hi Ricardo, Ken, Marc and all As far as I know, sodium chloride cristals are naturaly anhidrous. It seems to me that this will not work. Sodium chloride is very hygroscopic (absorbs water). I'm interested to know how much water it will absorb before it becomes saturated. Mathewson provides some information on using salt in The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel (chapter 12). http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual_ToC.html A second method takes advantage of the fact that water will dissolve in most salts, but ethanol will not. Therefore, water can be removed (although not entirely) by filtering the alcohol/water through dry salt. Almost any 'hygroscopic' (water absorbing) material such as calcium salt, various sulphates, phosphates and similar materials will work. However, common rocksalt, such as used in water softeners is cheap and available. An apparatus such as described in Chapter 7 for sprouting malt can be used. Fill the drum or container with rocksalt. The alcohol/water is poured in at the top and filters down through the salt. Relatively water-free alcohol is collected through holes or a valve at the bottom of the container. Remember that the salt must be dry. After absorbing water from a certain amount of alcohol, the salt must be re-dried either in an oven or by spreading it out in the sun. This appeals because salt is cheap, ubiquitous and easily dried. But the point about how much alcohol will stick to the crystals is an interesting one. Mathewson first describes the industry method of mixing benzene with the ethanol to render it miscible with gasolene. Benzene's nasty stuff indeed, but it seems that some gasolene in the ethanol won't disturb the transesterification process, so no doubt some benzene wouldn't disturb it either. Benzene's probably easy to get and cheap - or at least it used to be (like quicklime!!). Mathewson says: A good system might be to use both of the methods described above. First, most of the water in the alcohol is removed by the salt method, and then the blend is prepared with benzene. The more water that can be removed from the alcohol, the less benzene will be needed. Benzene will have to be purchased (the cheapest technical grade is fine) and can be used only once. The rocksalt can be dried and used many times. FYI I tried to dehydrate 95% ethanol with Copper Sulphate, that has 5 mols H2O, previously dehydrated by calcination. It didn«t work. You need a lot of anhydrous salt and you loose a lot of alcohol sticked to the crystals. Later I thought to use anhydrous calcium chloride, but now there are several ideas discussed in this forum, that I think will work better. Are copper sulphate and calcium chloride more absorbent than sodium chloride? Which is the most absorbent salt? Marc's ref on glycerine is most interesting, though it brings us back to the original question of purifying the glyc. However, maybe simply boiling off the water content would work? Much easier than distilling the glycerine. The other method is using corn grits: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_grits.html But this, as with 3A zeolyte etc, means treating the vapour, not the liquid ethanol: ie, an add-on to the distillation process. Ref. the translation, Marc will do it much better !! I get the feeling Marc isn't mad about the idea, and who can blame him - or you, Ricardo! :-( Ah well, I guess it's a good thing for this to happen to us hegemonistic Anglophiles occasionally (often?), puts things in perspective, eh? Ricardo. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 1:23 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol By the way, Ken Provost, if you're reading this, salt (sodium chloride) is cheap and obtainable enough, and easy to dry. Any idea how much water a pound/kilo of salt would absorb? I read EVERYTHING :-)! Thx for reminding me -- I actually bought a big box of rock salt to play with, and it's been languishing in the pantry. I'll get on it this weekend -- it wouldn't have to be very efficient, considering the cost, as long as you don't lose too much alcohol just sticking to the crystals... :-) Good luck, look forward to the results. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol
Could someone help me? I am new to all of this. I want to make ethanol legally here in the U.S. What is the quickest and most painless method of obtaining a B.A.T.F. permit and what are, if any, the limitation of the permit. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 6:31 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol Hi Ricardo, Ken, Marc and all As far as I know, sodium chloride cristals are naturaly anhidrous. It seems to me that this will not work. Sodium chloride is very hygroscopic (absorbs water). I'm interested to know how much water it will absorb before it becomes saturated. Mathewson provides some information on using salt in The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel (chapter 12). http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual_ToC.html A second method takes advantage of the fact that water will dissolve in most salts, but ethanol will not. Therefore, water can be removed (although not entirely) by filtering the alcohol/water through dry salt. Almost any 'hygroscopic' (water absorbing) material such as calcium salt, various sulphates, phosphates and similar materials will work. However, common rocksalt, such as used in water softeners is cheap and available. An apparatus such as described in Chapter 7 for sprouting malt can be used. Fill the drum or container with rocksalt. The alcohol/water is poured in at the top and filters down through the salt. Relatively water-free alcohol is collected through holes or a valve at the bottom of the container. Remember that the salt must be dry. After absorbing water from a certain amount of alcohol, the salt must be re-dried either in an oven or by spreading it out in the sun. This appeals because salt is cheap, ubiquitous and easily dried. But the point about how much alcohol will stick to the crystals is an interesting one. Mathewson first describes the industry method of mixing benzene with the ethanol to render it miscible with gasolene. Benzene's nasty stuff indeed, but it seems that some gasolene in the ethanol won't disturb the transesterification process, so no doubt some benzene wouldn't disturb it either. Benzene's probably easy to get and cheap - or at least it used to be (like quicklime!!). Mathewson says: A good system might be to use both of the methods described above. First, most of the water in the alcohol is removed by the salt method, and then the blend is prepared with benzene. The more water that can be removed from the alcohol, the less benzene will be needed. Benzene will have to be purchased (the cheapest technical grade is fine) and can be used only once. The rocksalt can be dried and used many times. FYI I tried to dehydrate 95% ethanol with Copper Sulphate, that has 5 mols H2O, previously dehydrated by calcination. It didn«t work. You need a lot of anhydrous salt and you loose a lot of alcohol sticked to the crystals. Later I thought to use anhydrous calcium chloride, but now there are several ideas discussed in this forum, that I think will work better. Are copper sulphate and calcium chloride more absorbent than sodium chloride? Which is the most absorbent salt? Marc's ref on glycerine is most interesting, though it brings us back to the original question of purifying the glyc. However, maybe simply boiling off the water content would work? Much easier than distilling the glycerine. The other method is using corn grits: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_grits.html But this, as with 3A zeolyte etc, means treating the vapour, not the liquid ethanol: ie, an add-on to the distillation process. Ref. the translation, Marc will do it much better !! I get the feeling Marc isn't mad about the idea, and who can blame him - or you, Ricardo! :-( Ah well, I guess it's a good thing for this to happen to us hegemonistic Anglophiles occasionally (often?), puts things in perspective, eh? Ricardo. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 1:23 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol By the way, Ken Provost, if you're reading this, salt (sodium chloride) is cheap and obtainable enough, and easy to dry. Any idea how much water a pound/kilo of salt would absorb? I read EVERYTHING :-)! Thx for reminding me -- I actually bought a big box of rock salt to play with, and it's been languishing in the pantry. I'll get on it this weekend -- it wouldn't have to be very efficient, considering the cost, as long as you don't lose too much alcohol just sticking to the crystals... :-) Good luck, look forward to the results. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Re: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol
I would also like to know this. -Tim Z - Original Message - From: ronald miller sr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol Could someone help me? I am new to all of this. I want to make ethanol legally here in the U.S. What is the quickest and most painless method of obtaining a B.A.T.F. permit and what are, if any, the limitation of the permit. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 6:31 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol Hi Ricardo, Ken, Marc and all As far as I know, sodium chloride cristals are naturaly anhidrous. It seems to me that this will not work. Sodium chloride is very hygroscopic (absorbs water). I'm interested to know how much water it will absorb before it becomes saturated. Mathewson provides some information on using salt in The Manual for the Home and Farm Production of Alcohol Fuel (chapter 12). http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual_ToC.html A second method takes advantage of the fact that water will dissolve in most salts, but ethanol will not. Therefore, water can be removed (although not entirely) by filtering the alcohol/water through dry salt. Almost any 'hygroscopic' (water absorbing) material such as calcium salt, various sulphates, phosphates and similar materials will work. However, common rocksalt, such as used in water softeners is cheap and available. An apparatus such as described in Chapter 7 for sprouting malt can be used. Fill the drum or container with rocksalt. The alcohol/water is poured in at the top and filters down through the salt. Relatively water-free alcohol is collected through holes or a valve at the bottom of the container. Remember that the salt must be dry. After absorbing water from a certain amount of alcohol, the salt must be re-dried either in an oven or by spreading it out in the sun. This appeals because salt is cheap, ubiquitous and easily dried. But the point about how much alcohol will stick to the crystals is an interesting one. Mathewson first describes the industry method of mixing benzene with the ethanol to render it miscible with gasolene. Benzene's nasty stuff indeed, but it seems that some gasolene in the ethanol won't disturb the transesterification process, so no doubt some benzene wouldn't disturb it either. Benzene's probably easy to get and cheap - or at least it used to be (like quicklime!!). Mathewson says: A good system might be to use both of the methods described above. First, most of the water in the alcohol is removed by the salt method, and then the blend is prepared with benzene. The more water that can be removed from the alcohol, the less benzene will be needed. Benzene will have to be purchased (the cheapest technical grade is fine) and can be used only once. The rocksalt can be dried and used many times. FYI I tried to dehydrate 95% ethanol with Copper Sulphate, that has 5 mols H2O, previously dehydrated by calcination. It didn«t work. You need a lot of anhydrous salt and you loose a lot of alcohol sticked to the crystals. Later I thought to use anhydrous calcium chloride, but now there are several ideas discussed in this forum, that I think will work better. Are copper sulphate and calcium chloride more absorbent than sodium chloride? Which is the most absorbent salt? Marc's ref on glycerine is most interesting, though it brings us back to the original question of purifying the glyc. However, maybe simply boiling off the water content would work? Much easier than distilling the glycerine. The other method is using corn grits: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_grits.html But this, as with 3A zeolyte etc, means treating the vapour, not the liquid ethanol: ie, an add-on to the distillation process. Ref. the translation, Marc will do it much better !! I get the feeling Marc isn't mad about the idea, and who can blame him - or you, Ricardo! :-( Ah well, I guess it's a good thing for this to happen to us hegemonistic Anglophiles occasionally (often?), puts things in perspective, eh? Ricardo. - Original Message - From: Ken Provost [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 1:23 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol By the way, Ken Provost, if you're reading this, salt (sodium chloride) is cheap and obtainable enough, and easy to dry. Any idea how much water a pound/kilo of salt would absorb? I read EVERYTHING :-)! Thx for reminding me -- I actually bought a big box of rock salt to play with, and it's been languishing in the pantry. I'll get on it this weekend -- it wouldn't have to be very efficient, considering the cost, as long as you don't lose too much alcohol just sticking to the crystals
Alcohol permits - was Re: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol
Hi Tim and Ronald Burea of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms: http://www.atf.treas.gov/alcohol/index.htm ATF Online Alcohol Programs COLAs | Customer Service | FAQs | Industry Circulars Information | Permits | Programs | Publications | Regulations Retailers | Rules | Statistics PLEASE guys, SNIP stuff that's not relevant to your replies, CHANGE the subject header when you change the subject!!! All that stuff went to hundreds of people, twice! This is a high-volume list these days, please be considerate. Thanks Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ I would also like to know this. -Tim Z - Original Message - From: ronald miller sr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Glycerin and absolute alcohol Could someone help me? I am new to all of this. I want to make ethanol legally here in the U.S. What is the quickest and most painless method of obtaining a B.A.T.F. permit and what are, if any, the limitation of the permit. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms
CAWKI? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms
poor LIL GUYS ARE JUST GONNA HAVE TO LEARN TO SAY 'VE HAD 'NUFF THANKSH OOPS!! sorry bout the caps :) -TZ - Original Message - From: Biofuels [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms Was the glycerol free from methanol. If not, the worms probably died from alcohol poisoning. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.250 / Virus Database: 123 - Release Date: 4/18/2001 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms
CAWKI? Good heavens, Ed - Civilisation As We Know It. Demise generally dated circa 1970. g Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms
Stop the madness!! W.O.R.M.S. (World Organisation for the Rights of Muckeating Species) strongly objects to this sort of testing! ;-) Ed B. - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 11:13 AM Subject: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms Kills 'em. :-( I put some red worms (manure worms, Eisenia foetida) in dry cocopeat Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms
Was the glycerol free from methanol. If not, the worms probably died from alcohol poisoning. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
Hi David C, Before racing out and spending all your money try your local large city library. After all this is what you pay your taxes and rates for. Also try your local University, Chemistry, and Engineering school libraries. Most loan books on payment of a small fee. America isnt at the forefront of technology because Americans are that much smarter (most of us know otherwise) but because it has invested heavily in its educational institutions. Utilise the resources open to you. Most librarians and especially those who have been at the job a number of years are extremely knowledgeable and can be extremely helpful if approached in the right manner. A sincere and genuine thankyou works wonders and more often than not ensures you get good attention next time. Sure like anywhere today there are people who are just there to pick up their pay packets and there are others who genuinely like what they are doing and try to be of real assistance. The trick is sorting them out so you dont waste time next time and you get the info you need and want. Also in case you are not fully aware of it most libraries can source books from other libraries and the National reference libraries on payment of a small fee. They may also be able to suggest far better books than me. B.r., David Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
David C, Thats a good reference book if thats what you want. There may be better around for all I know as I have not looked too hard and am not that converasant with this particular specialised topic. Unfortunately this is one of the small prices you pay for living in a small country with a small population. In some ways quite a good thing though as you learn to be more self reliant and just get on with things rather than complaining. There is still a lot more information available in a good technical library than on the internet. I find with computers a lot of people are just plain lazy and rather than exercise their mind and get the satisfaction of learning something themselsves they would sooner ask someone else. If you are driving 1800 miles a week I can understand your reluctance to jump in a vehicle to go to the library and owning a good book makes good sense as you can return to it as and when you have time and want. B.r., David Of course you`re right, but I drive 300 miles a day 6 days a week, and I am just to worn out to take a hike into the big town in what little spare time I have. The small libraries out here in the fringe suburbs could probably get the book so I`ll think about it. I go back to the time before computers so I`m real fond of books especially reference works like you have suggested, and I would probably just like to have the book to add to my collection! David Cruse - Original Message - From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 12:56 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms
Terry wrote: Was the glycerol free from methanol. If not, the worms probably died from alcohol poisoning. Yes, I used pharmaceutical-grade glycerine rather than biod WVO gunge, in the interests of reducing variables. Haven't got any biod stuff right now anyway (soon). Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms
Stop the madness!! W.O.R.M.S. (World Organisation for the Rights of Muckeating Species) strongly objects to this sort of testing! ;-) Ed B. Sue if you will, see if I care! They were all volunteers, doing their bit for science, for the world, for the future of CAWKI, and for me. They signed affidavits before willingly stepping into the fray, one and all. Okay, so I used a whip, but there were no witnesses. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 11:13 AM Subject: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms Kills 'em. :-( I put some red worms (manure worms, Eisenia foetida) in dry cocopeat Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms
Sue if you will, see if I care! They were all volunteers, doing their bit for science, for the world, for the future of CAWKI, and for me. They signed affidavits before willingly stepping into the fray, one and all. Okay, so I used a whip, but there were no witnesses. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Sorry Keith didnt your mum tell you that you shouldnt write notes or e-mails. We now have the evidence above. Please post affidavits or I will have to run with Ed B and WORMS on this one. Perhaps the Glycerin contained ethanol not methanol and you gave them a wiff rather than a whip before they signed. What a way to go. I suppose it is only in Japan you could get kamikaze worms. I know people in the rest of the world use them for fish bait in places but for all the wriggling they do it is hardly worth the effort. Maybe they are just latent politicians at heart. B.r., David Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin and red worms
Sue if you will, see if I care! They were all volunteers, doing their bit for science, for the world, for the future of CAWKI, and for me. They signed affidavits before willingly stepping into the fray, one and all. Okay, so I used a whip, but there were no witnesses. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Sorry Keith didnt your mum tell you that you shouldnt write notes or e-mails. We now have the evidence above. Please post affidavits or I will have to run with Ed B and WORMS on this one. Perhaps the Glycerin contained ethanol not methanol and you gave them a wiff rather than a whip before they signed. What a way to go. I suppose it is only in Japan you could get kamikaze worms. I know people in the rest of the world use them for fish bait in places but for all the wriggling they do it is hardly worth the effort. Maybe they are just latent politicians at heart. B.r., David I deny everything. Also I've destroyed the evidence (never had SWEET wormburgers before!). Also I've gone into hiding. So do your worst! All these worms are of European origin, by the way, they're all the same. The wriggling is held by the fishing fraternity to be an asset - worm bait farms do good business. I think they're too smart to be politicians, David. Re which, Charles Darwin wasn't too impressed with his Origin of Species, he reckoned his magnum opus was another book, with the catchy title The Formation of Vegetable Mould Through the Action of Worms with Observations on their Habits, the result of 40 years of most elegant experiments. He concluded that they're intelligent! And, reading it, you're forced to agree. It's a real delight to read. It's online, here: http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010115darwin/fvm.html The Formation of Vegetable Mould And I think they don't have hearts, as such. Ah well. Anyone wants to know more about red worms and compost and so on (worth knowing!), lots of good information here: http://journeytoforever.org/compost_worm.html And this is a great how-to book, full text online: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#oliver Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
Hi David R., Hey if they are that far away, don`t worry about them. I`ll get around to the Mall, there is a Borders Book store there and it`s not a 40 k hike to the place. Thanks, David Cruse - Original Message - From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin Nope sorry changed my mind. No seriously will try and remember. Books are held by Auckland Public Library (40 km away) so will try to look next time I go into the city if it is open. B.r., David - Original Message - From: david e cruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 12:21 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin Hi David R. Thank you , I will remind you later on. Thanks again, David Cruse Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
David, Normally go into the city once or twice a week anyway to get supplies and other things so no problem. B.r., David Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
Hi David R. Thanks again. David Cruse - Original Message - From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin David, Normally go into the city once or twice a week anyway to get supplies and other things so no problem. B.r., David Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
Hi David C, Went to town this afternoon and dug out the books on Glyceryn. Couldnt find one of the ones I wanted but found the other which is excellent and I would recommend, Dug out 4 books, 2 on Glycerine, and 2 on Fatty acids or Fatty Alcohols, which are related topics, especially when it comes to Biod. Titles: 1) The Manufacture of Soaps, Other Detergents and Glycerine by Edgar Woolatt. (formerly Development Manager of Lever Brothers). Published by Ellis Horwood Ltd, and Halstead Press, div of John Wiley and Sons 1985, ISBN 0-85312-567-8 (EHL) and ISBN 0-470-20234-3. An excellent and thoroughly authoritive text. 2)Glycerine by S.W. Koppe Translated from the German. Published by Scott, Greenwood Son, London 1915 A really old book I normally would not have bothered with but has some interesting chapters titled: Compounds and decomposition products of Glycerine, The production of Glycerine, The Production of Pure Glycerine, and Various applications of Glycerine. Had not seen it before as it was down in the basement so will at least have a quick scan of it. 3) Industrial Fatty Acids and their Applications edited by E. Scott Pattison, and published by Reinhold Publishing Corp 1959 Some good photos and line drawings of commercial operations in the States 4)Fatty Alcohols, Raw Materials, Methods, Uses. Published by Henkel, Dusseldorf, Germany 1982 Some good compositional data of various oils etc. The first one is the one I would look for and you should learn a lot from it. I believe the successful design and manufacture of a small mobile plant is one of the answers to making biodiesel a feasible product worldwide and making it viable from an economic point of view. There is a world wide demand for high quality glycerine which fetches good prices. Prices for the glycerine could be used to offset shifts in the base raw materials costs. If a small mobile plant could be put out at realistic cost there would be a fairly reasonable demand for it. The secret is a cheap energy source as to distill glycerine you need temperatures in the range of 500 to 600 degrees and you can imagine how consumptive and expensive this can quickly become at this temperature range. I have looked into this before and it is beyond me on a personal level as it needs a reasonable amount of input and also a reasonable cash input. I believe the answer is design input from half a dozen people or more and also financial input from others. Anyone out there interested in forming a design team and anyone interested in becoming a financial backer?. Hope this is of some help to you and others. The answers are out there, the solution is digging them out and then combining with others to achieve your goal. Keith, Steve, Aleks, Todd, Ed, and others who add their two cents everyday and are getting the word out there have moved this industry forward a long way already but it still has a long way to go. B.r., David Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
Hi David R. Thank you for taking the time, and I agree on the small plant scenario. I will try to get the first book you mention asap. There is some good info at www.britannica.com . I started out by just entering glycerol, and that is a short entry, three paragraphs, but at the bottom of the paragraphs it says * click here for more info * . That takes you to soap and detergent the third paragraph in that is very interesting as it tells how to separate the glycerin from the soap with a saltwater solution. If you have time check it out. The people at www.arserrc.gov filed for a patent ( 08/631,498 ) on 4-12-1996 for a process for Biodiesel Production with Lipases and they also were working on a process for Soapstock for Biodiesel Production . I tried to find the patent I mentioned at www.uspto.gov but couldn`t locate it . The website says that for a fee you can get a copy of the patents and get a license to use them. I was very aggravated in not being able to find any more info! The soapstock thing sounded terrific ! I also found that the NREL in Colorado also has this technology, the process with the lipase catalyst . I`m sure a lot of us would like to know the details on both these things, especially the soapstock process !! David Cruse - Original Message - From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 5:05 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin Hi David C, Went to town this afternoon and dug out the books on Glyceryn. Couldnt find one of the ones I wanted but found the other which is excellent and I would recommend, Dug out 4 books, 2 on Glycerine, and 2 on Fatty acids or Fatty Alcohols, which are related topics, especially when it comes to Biod. Titles: 1) The Manufacture of Soaps, Other Detergents and Glycerine by Edgar Woolatt. (formerly Development Manager of Lever Brothers). Published by Ellis Horwood Ltd, and Halstead Press, div of John Wiley and Sons 1985, ISBN 0-85312-567-8 (EHL) and ISBN 0-470-20234-3. An excellent and thoroughly authoritive text. 2)Glycerine by S.W. Koppe Translated from the German. Published by Scott, Greenwood Son, London 1915 A really old book I normally would not have bothered with but has some interesting chapters titled: Compounds and decomposition products of Glycerine, The production of Glycerine, The Production of Pure Glycerine, and Various applications of Glycerine. Had not seen it before as it was down in the basement so will at least have a quick scan of it. 3) Industrial Fatty Acids and their Applications edited by E. Scott Pattison, and published by Reinhold Publishing Corp 1959 Some good photos and line drawings of commercial operations in the States 4)Fatty Alcohols, Raw Materials, Methods, Uses. Published by Henkel, Dusseldorf, Germany 1982 Some good compositional data of various oils etc. The first one is the one I would look for and you should learn a lot from it. I believe the successful design and manufacture of a small mobile plant is one of the answers to making biodiesel a feasible product worldwide and making it viable from an economic point of view. There is a world wide demand for high quality glycerine which fetches good prices. Prices for the glycerine could be used to offset shifts in the base raw materials costs. If a small mobile plant could be put out at realistic cost there would be a fairly reasonable demand for it. The secret is a cheap energy source as to distill glycerine you need temperatures in the range of 500 to 600 degrees and you can imagine how consumptive and expensive this can quickly become at this temperature range. I have looked into this before and it is beyond me on a personal level as it needs a reasonable amount of input and also a reasonable cash input. I believe the answer is design input from half a dozen people or more and also financial input from others. Anyone out there interested in forming a design team and anyone interested in becoming a financial backer?. Hope this is of some help to you and others. The answers are out there, the solution is digging them out and then combining with others to achieve your goal. Keith, Steve, Aleks, Todd, Ed, and others who add their two cents everyday and are getting the word out there have moved this industry forward a long way already but it still has a long way to go. B.r., David Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
Hey David R. If that message was directed at me (David C.) That would be kind indeed ! David Cruse - Original Message - From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 10:18 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin Hi David, Can dig out a couple of good book titles from the library if you give me time. B.r., David Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
Hi Todd S Thanks for the info on methanol recovery. I found a metal shop in my area and the man who owns the place is skilled in stainless steel work. He gave me some great prices on building process tanks, and building what you described for the alcohol recovery. Thanks again for the help. David Cruse - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin I want to know about the vacuum/ heat extraction method in more detail, so if you have some good info I would appreciate your help. I`m not sure what VOC output is so please fill me in on that. . David, Vacuum is not necessary for evaporating and distilling the methanol, either the residual in the biodiesel before washing or the residual in the glycerin. A closed system is, however, to prevent the escape of the toxic and flammable fumes. It consists of nothing more than a manner to heat the fluid above the boiling point of the alcohol, and a water cooled condenser to recover the vapor in liquid form. Essentially it is the same process for evaporation and condensing glycerin, except that vacuum is used so that not so much heat energy is required. This is where pressure rated tanks and the like enter into play. Just imagine a more industrial image than what is in the following paragraph. You could probably evaporate the alcohol out of both the biodiesel and the glycerin using a fifty five gallon closed head drum, with the 3/4 bung plugged, the 2 bung piped into the condenser, the drum wrapped in R-19 insulation, all sitting on a double burner electric hotplate, or some other non-open-flame heat source. I would separate the biodiesel from the glycerin first and then evaporate each medium separately - perhaps a separate drum for both to prevent glycerin contamination of the fuel/ You will also need to remove the glycerin from the drum while still warm or reheat it before removal, as it gets rather thick. Todd Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
David, Yes. If I dont get back to you in a week give me a reminder. Both books were good but one was excellent. B.r., David - Original Message - From: david e cruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:54 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin Hey David R. If that message was directed at me (David C.) That would be kind indeed ! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
Hi David R. Thank you , I will remind you later on. Thanks again, David Cruse - Original Message - From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin David, Yes. If I dont get back to you in a week give me a reminder. Both books were good but one was excellent. B.r., David - Original Message - From: david e cruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 9:54 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin Hey David R. If that message was directed at me (David C.) That would be kind indeed ! Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
Hi Ed, You may be right about the soap ! Only problem is there are so many people making handmade/ hand crafted soap and all the other craft things that it makes it difficult to find a good market ! Anyway thanks for the thought. David Cruse - Original Message - From: NBT - E. Beggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:04 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin Soap production sounds a little more promising. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com David Cruse ... David, Here's the skinny on glycerin. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
Hi David, Thanks for the info. I talked to the General Manager of Ocean Air Environmental ( formerly NOPEC ) in Florida and he told me that they have a difficult time with glycerin also. But it`s still on my list of things to accomplish ! David Cruse - Original Message - From: David Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 8:41 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] glycerin David, Unfortunately the only way to purify it properly and get an absolutely pure product is with distillation. Commercial processors use other screening and filtering processes such as fullers earth which gets rid of some of the gunk but to get it really pure they still need distillation. Unfortunately this type of process really needs to be done on a commercial scale to make it truly viable. B.r., David Does anyone know a process that can be used to purify the glycerin produced in the biodiesel reaction into a pure or high grade glycerol ? High grade glycerol has a much better market value than the crude ( 80-88% ) glycerin you get with standard biodiesel recipes. Any help on this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, David Cruse Atlanta, Georgia metro area Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
Does anyone know a process that can be used to purify the glycerin produced in the biodiesel reaction into a pure or high grade glycerol ? High grade glycerol has a much better market value than the crude ( 80-88% ) glycerin you get with standard biodiesel recipes. David Cruse ... David, Here's the skinny on glycerin. To purify you will need to evaporate and distill it. The boiling point is above 500 Fahrenheit (read boatloads of heat energy). To reduce the heat input, you can evaporate and distill under partial vacuum. You're talking pressure rated, insulated tanks, a serious boiler, a major energy cost and uneconomical until you have a volume of x cubic feet of crude to distill. And that's when you're doing it safely but on the cheap. Even then you must meet food or cosmetic grade compliance for both the facility and the product in order to attain the higher value of pure glycerin. This means initial cost to meet the standard, continual and rigorous testing to insure product integrity, insurance costs for distributing food or cosmetic grade products and costs almost ad infinitum. Until you start producing several thousand gallons of biodiesel each week, the idea of refining glycerin is best left on paper or perhaps a pretty intense experiment. This truth really sucks, but no one can change the physical properties of glycerin. You could also experiment with glycerin as a furnace fuel or furnace fuel additive. Incomplete combustion generates Acrolein, however. It is extremely toxic and dangerous. One should be up on their combustion mechanics and chemistry before trying this. Or, you could toy with the conversion of glycerin to ethanol. This would be in the presence of the neutralized catalyst if you cannot determine a way to remove it before fermentation. This may or may not affect the yeastie beasties, depending upon their nature. In any event, you should be recovering the alcohol from the glycerin layer for economic and environmental purposes. That may not seem like much, but it is a start and gets you more familiar with evaporation/condensing techniques if you're not already familiar. It also reduces your VOC output if the alcohol of choice was anything but ethanol. The working theory is that biodiesel manufacture is intended to be green. This is one theory that can be practical in reality if all avenues are addressed Todd Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
Soap production sounds a little more promising. - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com David Cruse ... David, Here's the skinny on glycerin. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
I think that our local treatment plant just wants to know when, how much per flushing, and what is it (glycerine in this case). I don't think that it qualifies as toxic waste just waste. geoff anton and federica wrote: I know i should look in the website index, but i have never been able to make it work... What is everyone doing with their glyc erin? Is it O.K. to put it in the drain after one has made sure that all the methanol is out of ti? Is there some place that will take it as toxic waste, for not much money? I know that you can compost it, use it as parts cleaner, purify it to make soap, etc., but I live in the city, can't comp[ost, can't get rid of 30lbs of soap every month or two, and I don't really wash many parts, and besides, doesn't all that stuff eventually equal going down the drain anyway? does a standard sewage treatment plant take care of that sort of thing easily? I talked to a local hand soap place, but they were not interested, and figure with all of our great brains working toghether, we should be able to come up with a relatively easy, e-friendly solution. anton Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-~ eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/0/_/837408/_/980805977/ -_- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [biofuel] glycerin
Does anyone have any references on how to refine a crude glycerine mix in order to obtain pure glycerine? How do industrial producers do this? -- ...Warren Rekow Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-~ eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/0/_/837408/_/980780329/ -_- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [biofuel] Glycerin and Glucose
Well, first things first: glyc can't be broken down to glucose since it has fewer C atoms. Second: glyc is a flat chain of three C atoms, glucose is a ring compound of five C atoms and one O. So glucose is a heterogeneous ring compound. There is a process called glycerolysys in bio-reactions - apparently it happens in our bodies too, but I'm not quite sure what exactly is happening. A simple way to convert glyc to sugar - that one I don't know. Cheers, Aleks -- eGroups Sponsor -~-~ eLerts It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free! http://click.egroups.com/1/9699/2/_/837408/_/974267002/ -_- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [biofuel] Glycerin and Glucose
not aware of how this could be done. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: DAVID REID [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel n.g. biofuel@egroups.com Cc: DAVID REID [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2000 3:08 PM Subject: [biofuel] Glycerin and Glucose Steve, Keith et al, Just looking through a friends Merck Index the other night and under Glycerol which is the same as glycerin it said it could be broken down to Glucose. Didnt take any note of the formula as I would then be able to probably work it out but if this could be done it would/should then be possible to make biodiesel, convert the glycerin waste to glucose, and then ferment this into ethanol. Does anyone know anything about this and is it easy to convert glycerin to glucose? B.r., David -- eGroups Sponsor -~-~ eGroups eLerts It's Easy. It's Fun. Best of All, it's Free! http://click.egroups.com/1/9698/2/_/837408/_/974293032/ -_- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
