Re: [talk-au] Street Abbv. patch for validator plugin
Elizabeth Dodd wrote: -- A day for firm decisions! Or is it? That got quite a chuckle going here love it !! :D ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Updating the validator plugin...
John Smith wrote: What is, if anything, used for place markers or other types of non-address specific markers? I'm not sure that I understand? You're probably aware that the 'place' key is used for countries, states, cities, towns, villages, suburbs etc http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features#Places The 'postal_code' key also makes an appearance nearby in the next table down. What type of non-address thing are you trying to find a key for? If this is about the keys for the ABS bulk import, they seem to be either; 1. Taken from the Map Features page and part of JOSMs presets 2. Taken from the Map Features page and not part of JOSMs presets 3. Not part of the Map Features page and not part of JOSMs presets (made up to suit particular data that was included) I've found another example that may relate to a bulk import using data from the Geographical Names Board of NSW to insert a single Suburb node with the suburb name and some reference keys. In this case, they've been careful to use the 'ref:*=' key which I think is ignored in validator plugin by default. The 'making up' of keys isn't a problem as the need requires, it's more a matter of finding a practical way to remove them from warnings in validator plugin where they are widely used, such as a bulk import that affects all of Australia, or one that places a node in every suburb or town in NSW. Given the response from JOSM developers to comments in your ticket about removing unnamed roundabouts from the validator warnings, I'm starting to think that an Australian config file is going to be the solution, addressing the differences in editing styles and key usage here as opposed to Germany where the program seems to be largely developed. Which brings me back to postal_code, should this be ignored or what should we do about this specifically? My view is that the 'postal_code' key should be ignored, together with any other key used for this bulk import as listed on the specific ABS import wiki page. Cheers, Rick :) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Updating the validator plugin...
John Smith wrote: Yes, there seems to be a couple of cultural/language/country differences I'm haggling over in the bug list that may need some extra input from others, such as naming junction=roundabouts. http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/2792 I suspect this issue is going to be split, either based on cultural influences or something as different countries have opted for different things. I'm not sure what the best way to handle it, grouping config options by rough geo-cords might be a solution. I was taken with stoecker's comment in one of your tickets: "We need to find a way to have different checking sets for different countries. Something like a country selector button which sets different defaults in the preferences." I've lost track of which issues have been solved and gone to SVN, and which remain outstanding. I'm guessing the unnamed roundabouts issue remains, however I think you've developed a separate ignore file that's been incorporated - http://trac.openstreetmap.org/browser/applications/editors/josm/plugins/validator/ignoretags.cfg?rev=16319 This results in the ABS keys and lots of other keys/key combinations being ignored in the plugin, even though they are not in the preset list. A different ticket addresses adding certain agreed keys to the preset menu, but is yet to be actioned. Other code changes outside of the ignore file address boundary ways, turning circles, no exits and abandoned railway tags. Perhaps you could clarify the changes that have been incorporated, and those that remain outstanding? Great work John, thanks for your efforts, this will make the plugin so much more useful for Australian mappers by highlighting real errors that need addressing. Cheers, Rick :) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Updating the validator plugin...
John Smith wrote: submitted a bug about all the false positives about the "Presets do not contain property key" validation errors The validator informational (Other) warning says: "Presets do not contain property key" This led me to http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/TaggingPresets , since it says that it is the 'presets' that do not contain the keys. This webpage is about having presets added via an XML file linked in josm/preferences/map settings. This will add (or replace??) those items to the Presets menu in JOSM's main menu. Because the ABS related keys, and other keys used in Australia do not appear in http://josm.openstreetmap.de/browser/trunk/presets/presets.xml I'm wondering that if we add a separate preset file that includes these things (even though I can't see why it would be necessary to have such specialist keys available in the Preset menu) will those errors disappear in Validator ? Just a thought ... Rick :) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Updating the validator plugin...
John Smith wrote: It looks like the validator plugin uses the presets to match against, however I'm starting to agree that these shouldn't be presets but they shouldn't be showing up as errors either. I'll see if I can hack something together as a general ignore list, even if they aren't presets. For reference, the keys are listed here http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/ABS_Data#OSM_Representation I recently linked this page to the WikiProject_Australia page ... the beginnings of an Other Information and Reading section. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Updating the validator plugin...
John Smith wrote: ... I have a new version uploaded that ignores a lot of the ABS tags, there is still some missing preset tags but that's a job for someone else really. http://sharebee.com/856f6789 Good job John, that version of the validator.jar clears all of the ABS key/preset errors that are attributed to the ABS boundary ways. I see only the "postal_code" key remains in the Validator warning, but that is showing against the ABS Postcode relation and not the ways on the screen. The standard presets do use a postcode key, but in the Karlsruhe Schema format of "addr:postcode". The 'way end nodes near other way' boundary ways are involved have gone too .. the unnamed highway=*/junction=roundabout combination is no longer showing as an error you're on fire !! ...my JOSM has never looked so uncluttered! Thank you :) ...now, if I could just do something about those pesky 'highway without a reference' errors when highway=tertiary ... but I'll save that for another day ;) Hope your improvements are incorporated into the standard release so that all Aussie mappers can enjoy your good work and see the real errors that JOSM validator will throw up that need correcting. Thanks again :) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Updating the validator plugin...
John Smith wrote: Rick: Karlsruhe Schema format of "addr:postcode". John: What is the right thing to do here? Also why did the bulk import vary from what everyone else is doing? The 'addr:postcode' key is in the presets because it's the recommended way of entering a postcode (should you want to) when applying street numbering along a way. It doesn't really apply when providing a postcode for a suburb or group of suburbs as is the case with the ABS bulk import. I suspect that the key 'postal_code' which does appear in the Map Features page, but as somewhat deprecated, was selected to use in the bulk import because it's a key name that seems appropriate for this particular role. None of the keys developed for the ABS bulk import (or other special projects in Australia) need to be included in the presets menu within JOSM. This menu is a feature for the convenience of JOSM editors when entering commonly used keys/key combinations. Most of these special use keys show as a warnings in the plugin because they aren't in the presets, however they don't belong in the presets. This is where the flaw in the current plugin programming is revealed. The preset menu is trying to be used for more than it was originally designed. The people managing this plugin may tell you that you'll always get errors, because not all keys that are validly used are also in the presets. What they don't realise is that once you start ignoring error warnings, it can quickly become a one way street and the value of the plugin can be diminished to the point where you may as well not run it at all... I mean why would you, if you ignore everything? I think the validator plugin has great value, as it will regularly show genuine errors (sometimes many) that need correcting that I would otherwise not notice. Currently, you just have to be prepared to wade through all the false-positives to get to the real errors, and that is what I was looking to address by mentioning the ABS data import related errors in the first place. John Smith wrote: Being able to have arbitary keys and key pairs ignored that aren't in the preset list is a good idea, I've taken this a step further and given the plugin the ability to download a list of keys and keypairs to ignore or exempt from warnings. This is a great way to address the issue! Just as external files are used by the validator plugin for: spelling - http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/planet.osm/java/speller/words.cfg and tagging - http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/editors/josm/plugins/validator/tagchecker.cfg so too should there be an external file listing keys that are validly used either internationally, or in specific areas such as the ABS keys used here in Australia. This could be structured in two ways: 1. A list that includes all of the commonly used keys and any special purpose keys, thus returning the preset menu to its original role 2. A list appending only specially used keys to be used in conjunction with the existing presets method. I'm totally behind this initiative to improve the usability and reduction in false positives in validator plugin. Cheers Rick :) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Updating the validator plugin...
John Smith wrote: Forgot to ask, is there any more situations that isn't validly shown up as a warning/error but should be, or errors that shouldn't be that are shown up? The ABS boundary data import throws up a LOT of warnings and information notes in JOSM validator. Some might simply ignore the errors! Others might do some 'interesting' adjustments in an effort to clear the errors. Some of the Validation errors warn that keys are not part of the presets. That seems simple enough, add those keys to the presets. Others are more complicated to address, such as way end node near other way warnings. These types of warnings will continue until a recommended approach is developed to properly incorporate nodes of the boundary ways that coincide with other ways existing in the data at the same location (streets, streams, etc). Making changes to boundary data may also have implications for updating that data in the future. Perhaps, for the moment, the best approach is to remove any boundary related warnings from showing in JOSM validator until a solution that has been properly considered and that can be managed by JOSM users of all skill levels can be developed. (I hate to think how some users might be adjusting the data at the moment to clear the errors they are being presented) Cheers, Rick :) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to make unamed streets stand out on JOSM?
John Smith wrote: .using the validator plugin Hi John, I originally loaded the Validator plugin using the JOSM interface and then I enabled it in the plugins menu. I use it to check all of the data I download, usually before I start editing and then again before I upload my work. It's incredible what little errors I'd manage to miss, that it finds and highlights for me !! Tips: 1. Make sure the validator plugin is loading (see image) 2. Ensure no nodes or ways are selected in JOSM 3. Click the Validate button 4. Get results in the validator pane (see image) 5. In the Validator pane, click the particular folder (in this case Warnings/Unnamed Ways) or individual sub items to highlight them in the main window in yellow (see image) 6. Where you have a full screen with lots of different errors, right click an item to zoom to problem I hope this helps. Cheers, Rick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to make unamed streets stand out on JOSM?
opps, forgot to attach image links: 1. http://s756.photobucket.com/albums/xx204/AusRick/?action=""> 2. http://s756.photobucket.com/albums/xx204/AusRick/?action=""> 3. http://s756.photobucket.com/albums/xx204/AusRick/?action=""> Rick Peterson wrote: John Smith wrote: .using the validator plugin Hi John, I originally loaded the Validator plugin using the JOSM interface and then I enabled it in the plugins menu. I use it to check all of the data I download, usually before I start editing and then again before I upload my work. It's incredible what little errors I'd manage to miss, that it finds and highlights for me !! Tips: 1. Make sure the validator plugin is loading (see image) 2. Ensure no nodes or ways are selected in JOSM 3. Click the Validate button 4. Get results in the validator pane (see image) 5. In the Validator pane, click the particular folder (in this case Warnings/Unnamed Ways) or individual sub items to highlight them in the main window in yellow (see image) 6. Where you have a full screen with lots of different errors, right click an item to "zoom to problem" I hope this helps. Cheers, Rick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to make unamed streets stand out on JOSM?
John Smith wrote: Gympie has lots of unnamed ways, a number added by me and I'm just trying to easily locate and name them. Indeed I get 288 unnamed way errors when I do a generous area download around Gympie QLD. (Including unnamed roundabouts which I've written about before as a bugbear) Something must not be configured correctly. I'm using JOSM stable version 1669 Java version 1.6.0_13 and I regularly update all of my JOSM plugins using the preferences/plugins/update button within JOSM. Here's a screen capture of my Data Validator configuration page http://s756.photobucket.com/albums/xx204/AusRick/?action=""> ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to make unamed streets stand out on JOSM?
John Smith wrote: all I need to figure out is how to ignore all unnamed ways where junction=roundabout :) I hope you will share such valuable information should you happen upon a method! .. those roundabout false-positives drive me nuts !! That aside, I find the JOSM Validator plugin a truly valuable piece of software for working with OSM data. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Junctions (to name or not to name)
Thanks everyone for your input regarding roundabouts and under what circumstances to tag them with a name=* Whilst some opinions differ, I'd suggest that the majority of people who have responded to my post name roundabout junctions only when the roundabout has an official name (not the name of any primary road that forms a part of the junction) To me this seems a logical approach and is based on the mapping only what we see method that I often see written or referred to. I agree that it doesn't make sense to name junctions purely to get a particular renderer or routing program to perform as required. When approaching an unnamed roundabout with my particular GPS navigator using OSM routable data, it will speak - enter roundabout and take second exit to Foo street This is a perfectly acceptable and practical driving instruction. At this stage, I've removed the naming of roundabouts in the data that I'm working on, as none of them have official names. That leaves outstanding, two issues: 1. The error warnings in JOSM Validator for unnamed ways that are junction=roundabout 2. Lack of wiki information for newcomers (such as myself) when researching under what circumstances to name junction=roundabout Given that roundabouts are an incredibly common form of junction in Australia (I'd imagine in other countries too), I'd like to promote a consistent approach to how and under what circumstances they are named. As a newbie, I'll have to research further on how to reach agreement at an international level on naming conventions for junction=roundabout and then contact the JOSM development team regarding the Validator selecting roundabouts as error warnings. In the interim, I'd draw your attention to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Roundabouts as a potential location for expanded information to assist people in Australia when looking for clarification on this issue. Cheers, Rick :) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Junctions (to name or not to name)
Hi Folks, Quick question about roundabouts. (junction=roundabout) Originally, I didn't name roundabout junctions, but when I validate my work in JOSM, it identifies them as 'Unnamed Ways' in the warnings section. I've tried naming a few using the name of the primary road that connects with the junction. The validation warnings disappear, however, the rendered work looks messy as the streets AND roundabouts get named at close zooms. See Mile End Road at Rouse Hill NSW at http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.68113lon=150.92323zoom=17layers=B000FTF for an example. I've had a look at the wiki information on junctions, however there doesn't seem to be any information about whether to name or not to name the junctions ( see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%3Droundabout ) Any advice or comments ? Rick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Data Error - Junctions ?
Hello again talk-au, I'm new to editing in the OSM project and before I start making significant changes to another's work, I thought I should check with people more experienced with the project to make sure I'm correct. Background: I was having a look at my local area with Keepright and spotted a couple of "dead ended one ways". On close inspection in Potlatch, I see that the junctions have not been formed correctly. The layout of the streets, street names etc all appear to be correct. Well, I fixed those couple of dead ended one ways, but then checking other data around the immediate area, I see that just about all of the regular two way junctions have not been formed correctly. I started to fix them in one block of suburban streets, but the number of problems is significant, so I stopped my work to contact the mailing list to make sure I'm on the right track. (pardon the pun) The area to look at for an example is the hamlet of Hobartville in NSW near Richmond NSW. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.60619lon=150.74622zoom=16 As a specific example, if you look at Luttrell Street in Hobartville http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.607542lon=150.745566zoom=18layers=B000FTF you will see that none of the junctions for side roads are correctly joined to Luttrell Street. This problem appears to be repeated across the area generally. My Plan: I'll do a detailed GPS trace of the area and double check all of the street names, then assuming that I'm correct and all of these streets need to form standard junctions, I'll go ahead and edit the area street by street with my trace and street names for reference to correct the junction issue. I wonder why these don't show up in Keepright with the "almost-junctions" check? Assuming this is an error on the part of the person who originally entered the data, is it prudent to contact them to let them know in case they continue to enter data this way ? Any advice or suggestions appreciated. Rick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Data Error - Junctions ?
Delta Foxtrot wrote: Because they aren't joined, Hi Delta, thanks for the reply. Because they aren't joined is exactly the reason they should show in Keepright IMO, although I take your point about false postives with service roads etc. >From Keepright: "almost-junctions Streets that have (at least) one unconnected end are examined here. If such an end-node is very close to any other way an error is reported. Unconnected end-nodes should probably be connected to adjacent ways." In the situation that prompted my original mail, most of these streets have no node connection to other ways whatsoever, and they are all very close to another way, because they indeed form junctions with those roads that they are very near. I'll play around with Keepright to see if I can get the errors to show, perhaps I'm doing something wrong with the number of error limit. Cheers, Rick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Newbie - Landuse and Administrative Boundary
Hi Folks, I’m a newcomer to the OSM project with a couple of questions. BACKGROUND: I recently traced and added the streets of my village and surrounding areas to OSM (Bowen Mountain NSW). http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.582lon=150.6326zoom=14layers=B000FTF http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.582lon=150.6326zoom=14layers=B000FTF I notice that there is two items on the map surrounding Bowen Mountain; 1. boundary=administrative, source = ABS_2006 2. landuse=forest I see that the administrative boundary tightly follows the layout of the streets once I uploaded my GPS trace and added the street data. Comparatively, I see that the suburb of Bowen Mountain is considerably larger than the boundary as shown when inspecting the Spatial Information Exchange website run by the NSW Department of Lands. The landuse=forest area overlaps both the administrative boundary and the streets in the village. I’m assuming this item might be an attempt to represent the Blue Mountains National Park which does indeed surround Bowen Mountain; however my understanding is that it does not include any privately owned land, and that there is a crown land buffer zone for recreational use before the National Park begins. Questions: How can I adjust these features to more accurately represent them on the map? I’m confident that the Blue Mountains National Park does not encroach within the boundary=administrative as it exists currently, so is it ok to move the landuse=forest outside of that existing boundary without any current knowledge as to exactly where the National Park boundary lays? I’d much prefer to edit the data to improve the accuracy of the information, rather than just push things back out of the way! Any assistance you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Rick PS: The OSM project rules, I’m running routable OSM maps on my Garmin GPS and the quality of the data is awesome!! ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
