Re: [talk-au] 4WD only tags
Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: So if there is a sign 4WD only, then we tag it 4wd_only=yes, even if it otherwise it might look like a 2WD road? (That is, the road authority's assessment trumps our own?) The National Park's assessment has at least one important attribute: It's a legal requirement. You can be fined if you drive a 2WD vehicle on a track signposted 4WD only. It's not a suggestion or guideline. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Anything remapping an armchair mapper can help with in Australia?
Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com wrote: group contributed facts. My attempt here is to respect, within reason and as far as the tools allow, some people's desire to remove their data from a project heading in a different direction to their wishes. Stop saying this! This is just not true. It seems like most of the people on this list continue to miss the bloody point! My contributions are still available under CC-BY-SA, just as they always were. I haven't changed my mind, nor am I excluding any of my contributions from OSM. It's not even possible for me to do so, since CC-BY-SA is irrevocable. OSM has made the choice to exclude my contributions. That's really important, so I'll say it again: OSM HAS MADE THE CHOICE TO EXCLUDE MY CONTRIBUTIONS. If I could say it louder I would. Hopefully it'll evetually sink in. OSM may include my contributions at any time simply by adhering to the license they were contributed under, CC-BY-SA. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Plea to Australian decliners
Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote: OSM(F) is not some nefarious organisation... Incompetence is often difficult to distinguish from malice. I'm like everyone else in the project it doing it for fun, interesting and for the making something great... I have a real day job that is not related to osm. So am I, so do I, and that's exactly why you're way out of line for blaming me for OSM rejecting the data I created in good faith. I created it thinking it'd be useful for me and others. If you don't want it, that's annoying but it's your right. If you want to blame me for your rejection, you can shove it up your arse. I owe you nothing. Mr John Anonymous Smith... the community will be better without you. Nice attitude. You wonder why we continue to be disappointed at your behaviour and that of OSMF? Glad the license change is nearly over and we can get back to what we enjoy... Mapping and building the bloody best map (data) of the world. It won't be as good as it can be if you continue to reject contributions, drive people away from the project and fracture the community. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [sharedmapau] Re: Mass revert now??
Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: That's the point. I'm not surprised, I'm not offended. I believe the disgruntled have made their point, and I definitely supported them while the debate was active. Now that it's over, and a done deal, I think it would be much better for them to now (begrudingly, reluctantly, ...) tick the damn box and move on. As I said before, it's just not that simple. But to put in thousands of hours of work to create free map data that can be used by anyone, and then to finish up having contributed nothing strikes me as a spectacularly selfish act of self-immolation. Is it selfish of Google or Nearmap to not allow use of their data under the ODbL and CTs? -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [sharedmapau] Re: Mass revert now??
Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: This is the OSM community here. We're on an OSM mailing list. From the perspective of this community, John Smith's contributions are not usable. Certainly, he's made a valuable contribution to other communities elsewhere - but not this one. The complaint was that this community was unappreciative of his contribution - to which the response is that there is no contribution to this community. The community has rejected the contributions. They were made, in good faith, under the licence that had been agreed to at the time. Let's extend it further. John Smith shows up at my birthday party driving a new Mercedes which is his present to me. Then in conversation I let slip that I'm a Family First supporter. He says if you don't change your mind, you can't have the car. Holy crap, you really don't understand what's happened here at all. Really, you told him his car's not worth shit and you don't want it unless he also joins Family First. Even though yesterday you said you'd like it and he should get it for you at considerable personal effort. Have we stretched this analogy past breaking yet? Refusing to accept the outcome (or rather, persisting vainly with the idea that maybe it will change), and refusing to accept the CTs amounts to blackmail at this point. I think you've got the blackmail finger pointed in the wrong direction. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Back in editing - Tracks and 4wd areas
Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: To me this is really odd. If the track is 30km long and there is 1km of 4wd only then is not this track all 4wd_only. As without a 4wd you will not be able to go from one end to the other in a 2wd. Only if the track has no other access. Said access may not yet be mapped in OSM. 2WD can also be used to get from one end of the track to the 4WD section, even if it can't be used to traverse the 4WD section. Also any track sign posted as 4wd only should be marked in it's entirety as 4wd_only=yes. What's the difference between NPWS sign states 4WD only (You can be fined real money for disobeying these signs), You'd be crazy to drive a Commodore down here and Holy shit, how'd that Commodore get here?!. The tagging guidelines page isn't clear about this and people in general have no idea about how far you can really drive a 2WD if you're determined and skilled. Conversely, people in general have no idea how easy it is to get stuck in a 4WD if you are not skilled. Also, contrast tricked-out Toyota Landcruiser with Subaru Forester with 2WD rally car. These vehicles, ignoring driver skill, have vastly differing off-road capabilities. The 2WD rally car will go places the 4WD Forester won't. Clearly the Forester isn't a serious 4WD like the Landcruiser, but the rally car isn't 4WD at all. How to indicate that the Forester isn't suitable for a particular track? The 4wd_only tag lacks any of the expressiveness needed to solve the problem and the tagging guidelines don't address it either. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Removing ABS data
Sam Wilson s...@archives.org.au wrote: All good points, Nick. Thanks. Except for the childish dark side comments. Nick, please accept that people have their reasons for declining the CTs, just as you presumably have your reasons for accepting. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Residential Roads
Peter Watson peter.bmwk7...@gmail.com wrote: I live on a quot;residential streetquot; that has a 60km/h speed limit and so this street is not tagged as a residential street. Do you agree that it should be tagged residential despite the 60km/h speed limit? It is used as at short cut for people in ajoining suburbs. So should it be tertiary? I partly came to this view because rural roads were being wrongly tagged with 50km/h speed limits which they rarely are. The 50km/h speed limit tag was done by a bot, it's often inaccurate and should be disregarded and/or corrected in these cases. Don't let the 50km/h tag influence your considerations on whether to tag a road residential or not. I have been looking around my suburb but there are no 50km/ h signs either so can be tricky to know, especially if tracing. In the ACT 50km/h is the default if there are no signs. NSW posts 50 km/h area signs around the place to cover all roads within that area. Not sure about other states that I rarely visit. In any case, you're right that it's hard to know without some local presence. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] ODbL data.gov.au permission granted
Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: Dear Talk-au, The License Working Group have had further communication with data.au.gov to confirm their position on permitting data.au.gov data in OpenStreetMap. data.au.gov have reviewed the Australian section of the attribution page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Attribution#Australian_government_public_information_datasets and responded as follows: That is terrific – thank you Regards, data.au.gov Team We trust that you will find this to be sufficient confirmation that it is okay to include data from data.gov.au in OpenStreetMap with your CT/ODbL accounts. There's clearly some communication failure going on here. This isn't sufficient confirmation of anything except maybe that somebody at data.gov.au thinks something is terrific, probably something on the attribution page. There's no mention of licence compatibility or special permission grants, and a complete lack of the clear statements I'd expect to see. All context has been removed, and the phrase That is terrific can't stand alone. Richard, is it possible to simply forward the communications you have from data.gov.au to this list, or otherwise make them publically available? That should put the matter to rest one way or another. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] [sharedmapau] Re: ODbL data.gov.au permission granted
Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: The answer from AGIMO (data.gov.au) will actually be irrelevant. I was hoping that the original communications would make clear exactly how relevant they are. At the moment we're all just guessing. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Missing streets in Sydney
Sam Couter s...@couter.id.au wrote: Next trip will be in a week, but it will be my daughter's birthday and I don't know if I'll have time. Update on Cowra mapping: I went to a birthday party, I flew a kite, I built a fence, I fed some cows, I drove a semi-trailer, but I did not collect street names or GPS traces. Yet again I tell myself Next time. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Missing streets in Sydney
Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: A lot of those streets were placed by a particular person whom I know traced from Google in particular places. I'll stop that accusation there. I haven't been able to put many names to streets in Cowra because I don't travel through there often. I do, and I've been meaning to name all the streets. Of course I haven't yet done so. Next trip will be in a week, but it will be my daughter's birthday and I don't know if I'll have time. If the streets are traced from sources which shouldn't have been used, then of course they should be deleted as Nick suggests. I am unaware of the sources used for mapping Cowra. If I collect all the street names I'll also have GPS traces to match. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Bing
Andrew Harvey andrew.harv...@gmail.com wrote: That is, if OSM were as rigorous as Debian we wouldn't allow this as it is in violation of point 8 of the DFSG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian_Free_Software_Guidelines I'm glad somebody has mentioned Debian. You want to see information freedom done right, a functioning do-ocracy and most importantly a transparent, democratic decision-making process, you don't need to look any further than Debian. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Going separate ways
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: I didn't, you are correct. I said I would however, if it was an email assuming good faith and free of personal attacks. This is common is western societies. Or at least polite societies :-) Calling people trolls and puppets doesn't demonstrate an assumption of good faith. In fact, it's the opposite. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] missing messages
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: It's been pointed out that I'm not replying to hundreds of messages from John Smith, Anthony and friends. I don't see them as they're automatically deleted. I find life is better without having the trolls fill my inbox. I really don't know how to respond to this level of immature bullshit. However, if I have missed any reasonable points in there then feel free to repost them, just don't put those guys email addresses in the to/from/cc fields... And waste my electrons? You don't seem to think any point you disagree with is reasonable or worth responding to. You simply dismiss anybody who disagrees with you as a troll without consideration. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: [ rubbish about Australians being led astray by some guy] It's hard to fix that, however I am resourceful. You're an immature brat who thinks shouting loudest and longest means you win the argument. That's not resourcefulness. It's impossible to carry on any kind of rational debate with someone who can't comprehend that others may disagree with them. The first step is to meet your clownmails message-for-message so you don't automatically have the loudest voice. By pointing out the simple facts and having you talk past them and get to the real issues (you want to rile people like me up, make us fret and worry) it is now clear to a rational observer what the intentions are. Here's what this rational and until now unengaged observer sees: You are a closed-minded person who assumes people who disagree with you are doing it for the lulz rather than because they genuinely have a different opinion. I don't know who 80n is or what he's done, so don't dismiss my opinion as just another rube being led astray. I think your nightmare scenario is that I fly to Australia and sit in the pub and discuss the real reasons you're so upset. Please do so. Your communication skills in this medium are atrocious, maybe in person you're not such an arse. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: We've gone to insanely long lengths to make that the case, including getting clarifications from Ordnance Survey, Nearmap and many others. As far as I'm aware there are no remaining issues as to why you can't click 'accept'. The solution to the problem of We chose a licence and impose terms on contributors that's incompatible with most sources of data isn't to go to each source of data individually to try to get them to relicence. That's as ridiculous as choosing a GPL-incompatible software licence and then whining that you can't legally incorporate all those wonderful GPL licenced projects into yours. So while no doubt nearmap is a great resource and it's a shame they no longer want to be involved, it's clear that the majority do - even large sclerotic government institutions are being agile and helpful about this. I don't think you understand the depths of recalcitrance when it comes to the Australian government. Having data released under CC licences at all was a huge leap, there's effectively zero chance of OSM being able to licence the data under ODbL. The federal and state governments just don't care. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] missing messages
SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: As it happens however, my view that John smith and others are trolls is widely held. And unless you have anything to discuss other than you believing what I write to be bullshit I'm afraid you will go in the same bucket. I didn't really expect anything different given our differing opinions. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: I wouldn't say we chose it. We were told by legal that cc didn't work, so we spent a lot of time evolving the odbl (originally started by cc folks) and the CTs. It might look from that side of the planet that it was a hand of god type decision, but that's not the case. It's been multiple years of work around every possible solution. I didn't mean that you and some secret cabal conspired in secret, I meant that OSM-F chose it by whatever process. I also understand that the process was quite long and involved. The end result of the licence being chosen was the important part for my comment, not the process by which it was chosen. Also, your frame of reference is with OSM up and running and having these kinds of relationships. When I started OSM we had no data at all and nobody wanted to give us data under any license, let alone cc. So those of us who climbed the mountain to get those people to give us data see asking people to switch (such as ordnance survey for example) as a far smaller problem. I don't see it as a small problem. Australian government data is mostly released under CC licences, which are widely compatible with most open uses. They've hit the 99% mark, so there's not a lot of motivation to change further. OSM-F has placed OSM in the remaining 1%. Im confused that I was discussing nearmap but you jumped to the government, what am I missing? The bit where you mentioned large sclerotic government institutions. I think we've just about covered Nearmap, and the government sources in Australia are collectively the next biggest potential data source. In any case, as someone who built this project and has convinced many organizations and government agencies to open up, I urge you to have a longer timeframe outlook. These types of agencies tend to get with it in the end. Even the ordnance survey has, for example. You've mentioned Ordnance Survey many times. Are they the only success story? Australian agencies have already gotten with it. We have data available under various open licences. How are Australians supposed to go to the Australian government agencies (individually, of course) and explain that while it's exactly what we've been asking for for a long time, it's not good enough because one specific project chose a licence based on concerns that they needed to protect rights that don't exist in Australia or even in the majority of the world? -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: No, John smith and friends are a separate issue, they troll many different discussions. Who are and friends? I only watch talk-au so if there's trolling going on elsewhere I haven't seen it. What I have seen is you dismissing others as being deliberately disruptive or as having hidden agendas, instead of addressing what they actually say. Actually no, I've said im unaware of any reasons not to accept (given we fixed near map, we fixed ordnance survey...) which is not the same as saying there aren't any. Many reasons have been given. I'll give you my two biggest right now: Eternal, irrevocable rights grant and indeterminate future licencing. For my own contributions using my own GPS traces and survey work, that's one thing. I haven't yet decided if I'll create a new OSM account and click Accept, I've clicked Decline for my existing OSM account because of the sources I've used in the past. But I can't agree to the CTs when I'm using CC-BY or CC-BY-SA. Nearmap isn't the problem and doesn't need fixing, ODbL is. Maybe it can't be fixed any time soon, but denying that it's a problem doesn't help. you have denied any problems with licence incompatibility. Where did I do that? I think I mention multiple times how many problems we have had in many areas. You seem to think that all the Australian CC-BY and CC-BY-SA data that has been imported can either be kept, which seems unlawful to me, or deleted without considering it any real loss. [Sam:] I hate to sound like a third-grader, but you started the ad hominem. I did, where? The first message I replied to. Accusing others of hidden agendas or riling you up for no reason other than enjoyment. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] What A Day
Andrew Laughton laughton.and...@gmail.com wrote: I would say a single troll, who it must be admitted has had quite a reaction. Are you referring to me or Steve? I assume it's one of us given our message volume over the past couple of days. Name names! Quit being so passive-aggressive, poor communication like that is what causes these kinds of problems in the first place. Despite my disagreements with Steve, I don't think either of us is trolling, so either way you're wrong. It might be to distract mappers from discussing what they are doing. Here's my bit, and I encourage others to discuss their intentions: My contributions have never been all that significant, so it doesn't really matter, but I'm not looking forward to seeing my past efforts disappear and I'm undecided if I'm going to continue in the future. FOSM doesn't yet seem to be a valid alternative either. I personally cannot seem to be able to get any joy from fosm.org, at the moment I am just getting a 500 Internal Server Error message. Me too. Previous efforts were more successful (no error messages), but I've never seen a map, just a blank grey box where a map probably goes. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: Well the eternal right thing applies to CC and most other licenses, so I There's a difference between an irrevocable licence and an irrevocable, all-encompassing rights grant. CC and most other open licences are the former, OSM's CTs require the latter. suspect that you don't like who the licensee is, OSMF? That's the reason it's Don't care who. The Free Software Foundation requires a copyright assignment for contributions to GNU projects and I'm uncomfortable with that too, even though I feel I can trust FSF way more than OSMF. shaped that the OSMF immediately license it back. From what I remember, our legal advice was there has to be a licensing party that things are assigned to in order to make it work. The contributor can be the licencing party, there's no requirement for OSM to take that role. As for future licensing, do you have a better idea? Yes. Stick with CC-BY-SA and don't demand a rights grant. Why don't you start at the beginning and explain what, where and when this data was imported? Did you ever bring it up with the LWG? Australian government data, and this has been the main sticking point in the licencing debate since the start. Are you seriously going to claim ignorance on this? -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes because most of the community I'm familiar with, which is all of the EU and the US, consider government data a nice starting point but mappers on the ground as generally much better. Is the perception in Australia that you should just do whatever the government says you should do? Or that OSM should just be a host for government data? Mappers on the ground are much better, but government data is *already collected*. It also has stuff that's difficult or impossible to collect on the ground (or water), like marine park and national park boundaries. Also, Australia is incredibly remote. When the US talk about remote locations and low populated areas, we've got 'em beat. So they're only a potential source, things have not been imported? Some has, but it's not compatible with ODbL and will probably be deleted. I don't think anything has been imported for a while because of that. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: Wow, you infer a lot from my four word sentence. Do you have any evidence to back any of it up? You mean other than the message you affirmed pretty strongly? Maybe it's a difference between Australian English and British English, but I'd think those four words in the context that you uttered them carry exactly the same meaning as the message you affirmed. Said message was dismissive of project forks, the reasons for them, the people who start them, and the importance of licences that people choose to make contributions available under. It was specifically dismissive of people with agendas which has become a commonly used passive-aggressive label (especially on this list) for those who voice concerns. So I don't think I inferred much at all, I think instead you were quite explicit. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes
Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote: This is exactly right. It's only exactly right if you don't have a problem with the new licence, with the process by which it was implemented, with mass deletion of data, with the proliferation of incompatible open licences, with irrevocable and eternal rights grants, with future relicencing at OSM-F's whim, etc. Dismissing the objections of people who don't share your viewpoint as some kind of hidden agenda or shitstirring for shitstirring's sake is immature, childish and unproductive. Failing to understand that others genuinely have different viewpoints from you is a glaring failure for a man who's supposed to be a leader in an open community. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] A modest proposal fo OSM mailing list reform
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 21 May 2011 13:52, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com wrote: Forums (IMO) are much superior to mailing lists for one simple reason If the forum software is a threaded one then it is really easy to avoid reading any drivel from the trolls. You just ignore the whole thread if the troll starts it or just ignore any parts of an otherwise useful thread if it becomes troll infested. While not a forum, you do realise you can do the same thing with a newsgroup interface? Any decent mail client will offer the same feature. Forums suck hardcore. They all have different feature sets, differently disabled UIs, they encourage terrible posting styles, and worst of all I have to go to them (and register separately at each one, log in each time I visit, manage yet another user profile, remember a whole new set of user identities for those I interact with, etc) if I want to read the content. With mailing lists on the other hand, the content conveniently comes direct to me, I get to choose what software has the interface I like, and it is impossible for censors to delete stuff before I get to see it. All that, and I still have a delete button for stuff I don't want to see. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] temp name change
Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Just out of curiosity, am I the only normal person on this email list? Depends what you mean by normal. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Things that would be nice if they rendered...
Jim Croft jim.cr...@gmail.com wrote: there is one near my place... will try and iPhone it this weekend... Could you perhaps take a photo of it instead? /camera snob -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Making a laptop Into a Big-Screen GPS (cont.)
Eraina and Richard jenkins richardvk...@gmail.com wrote: 1.Where is there a tutorial/howto/whatever for Navit. For me it comes up with a blank screen ... and no maps. I did attempt to download some maps for SE Australia ... so, how do I proceed from this point?? Unfortunately, configuring navit isn't exactly user-friendly. It requires editing an XML file. There's no easy clicky-clicky interface. http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/Configuring_Navit Also, acquiring and loading maps isn't user-friendly. You can download navit maps from cloudmade, but you have to manually copy them into the right location, referenced from the navit.xml file you edited earlier. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Making a Laptop GPS
Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: Navit does wonderfully on my eeepc 701 - the original tiny one with the modest sized database for all of australia on a SD card runs on Crunchbang Linux which I find sleek enough for the processor I run it on my Nokia n810, which has much more limited resources than any laptop or netbook. It would be fine on any laptop. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] More General Observations
Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: In the 1980s we lived in NWQ, and travelled to Tassie on holidays. We got the impression that the road engineers were paid by the corner. As a motorcyclist who was finally able to tour Tassie on two wheels recently (been waiting ten years for the chance) I'd just like to say roads in Tasmania are AWESOME. The roads in South Gippsland on the way there and back... not so good for motorbikes, especially around Sale. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] answers to difficult questions
David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au wrote: Ive been using a couple of different techniques for doing power towers, but one that Im looking at for more remote towers is simple survey triangulation as you suggest. Youve got a GPS, all you need is a compass, pen/paper and a little bit of high-school maths. You'll need a theodolite or sextant or similar if you want to be anywhere near accurate. A few degrees of error isn't perceivable on a compass but will create a large error in placement. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Overland Track added
John Henderson snow...@gmx.com wrote: Yes, the figure from a proper survey should have an accuracy of a few centimetres. One of my many jobs (back in the 70s) was a chainman (surveyor's assistant). With modern electronic gear, I believe there's no such job any more. My old man's a surveyor so I've played chainman plenty of times too. These days it's less about the chain and more about carrying the prism to the benchmark and to each spot. You don't expect the surveyor to do the walking, do you? -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Canberra - last white spot on the map
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: Also it's against the laws of physics to get e100, you need additivies to stop water in humidity bonding with pure ethanol This happens with lower concentrations of ethanol, one reason why fuel companies love it and motorists should refuse it. , and to stop people from trying to drink it instead of putting it in their cars, from memory the best you can do is e95... Methylated spirits these days is nearly 100% ethanol. The main additive is a bittering agent to discourage people from drinking it and maybe an emetic agent just in case they do. Back in the days when it contained methanol people still drank it which did even more damage. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Question about lanes
Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: another example of let's change the wiki and radically change meaning missed by me because i don't find the wiki useful That page is still useless. The second photo shows cars parked on both sides of the street facing away from the camera, which suggests it's a one-way street. It's a poor example. There's no indication of how to map asymmetrical roads, Liz's suggestion of using 1/2 or 3/2 amuses me. As a separate issue, how to map roads with differing numbers of lanes, perhaps based on time? Pacific Highway at Turramurra is an example, I think the Spit Bridge in Manly used to do the same thing. Sydney Harbour Bridge also changes the number of lanes used in each direction based on traffic flow. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping interchanges levels or turn restrictions
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: KISS... In this case you have to assume the turn restictions are completely ignored, which if that is the case is there really any point in putting them in in the first place to tell stupid things how to do their jobs better when the programming should be improved? I disagree with your assertion that turns through acute angles are impossible, or even rare. One example: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=qsource=s_qhl=engeocode=q=crows+nest,+nswsll=37.0625,-95.677068sspn=40.681389,79.013672ie=UTF8hq=hnear=Crows+Nest+New+South+Wales,+Australiall=-33.82794,151.2008spn=0.005036,0.009645z=17 Left turn from Falcon Street onto Pacifiy Highway. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Incorrect entry to BP service station
Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: So the routing software has to approximate the target node with some other node that *is* connected... and if the router does this approximation sub-optimally, this is a problem with the router, right? How can it possibly know? This is garbage in, garbage out. When asked an impossible question, the answer is gibberish. The router has no way of knowing that the node is connected to two nearby ways rather than just the nearest, which is the approximation I'd expect. Service roads seem like the perfect solution: They're unabiguous and exactly correct. Trying to drive or route to disconnected nodes is nonsensical. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Portrush Road, Adelaide
John Henderson snow...@gmx.com wrote: One of the nice features I've found on my Garmin Nuvi is that I can turn the GPS receiver off, place myself on any point on the map, and do a simulated drive to any other place. The simulation is very realistically done with the route, vehicle and simulated speeds showing. Navit can do the same thing using the demo vehicle. It follows the current route at a constant speed. It's a little buggy and crashes occasionally but it mostly works. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Roundabouts and routing
Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com wrote: Heh. My sister-in-law lives near here. The directions on my eTrext Legend did confuse me a little at that intersection. I assumed the intersection hadn't been drawn quite right, but I never got around to going back and fixing it. I fixed this one. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Roundabouts and routing
morb@beagle.com.au morb@beagle.com.au wrote: The first exit (west on Ginninderra Drive) isn't being counted as an exit because that exit point is also my entry point. Well, I would rather represent geometrical reality than play tricks for routers. Take a comparative example: http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-28.0917,153.3945z=19t=k http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-28.0917lon=153.3945zoom=18layers=B000FTT You can see that to get from S to W, W to N and N to E it's a graceful sweep left, more or less tangential to the roundabout. Whereas from W to S, there's the left bend into the roundabout, a bit of right bend in the roundabout, before turning left again out of the roundabout. In the first case I have edited the entry, exit and roundabout as meeting at exactly one node. IMHO this represents reality and if the router can't handle it then the router should be upgraded to suit (or its OSM-to-router-format script suitably upgraded). We shouldn't be mapping for the router to the extent it disagrees with reality, should we? You can't represent a graceful sweep with two straight lines and one angle. It seems clear to me that even if you don't turn the steering wheel due to the width of the road, the entry and exit points on that roundabout are separate. If you were driving a hypothetical and impossible point vehicle on a hypothetical impossible zero-width line road, you'd be turning the wheel to go around the roundabout. And it just so happens that what we are mapping is impossible zero-width line roads. Also, if you're driving tangetially to the roundabout and the circle of the roundabout has been simplified to straight lines, it's not hard to arrange one of the straight lines from the circle to coincide with your tangent. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Sports Clubs
James Livingston doc...@mac.com wrote: I agree that they're not really the same as a normal pub, but I don't know how'd you'd really describe the difference other than the tenuous connection to some club and officially members only thing. Pub is short for public house and is a hotel, a place where anyone can get a meal, a drink and a room. Bars don't have rooms. In the ACT, a club is the only place you can go to play a poker machine. Clubs are not always sports-oriented, there are labour clubs, trademen's clubs, fishermen's clubs, clubs centered around ethnic groups, etc. Access restrictions to members, their guests and out-of-area visitors is a significant difference compared to pubs. Clubs usually have dress codes and other rules that pubs may not. They are heavily regulated by State-based legislation and are obviously different (when you visit them) from a pub or bar. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: Make sure if you are going to enter fuel information then you include all types, (lpg, 91, 95, 98 octane, diesel, etc) More: Automotive LPG is different tax-wise from barbecue LPG and therefore sold and dispensed differently, sometimes you can refill your own LPG bottle and sometimes you can only buy a full one or swap an empty one for a full one. Alpine diesel is a different fuel from normal diesel and usually only sold during the winter months in alpine areas. Ethanol is for drinking and swindling motorists and governments out of some cash so it should be noted for those of us who'd rather push the car than put E10 in it. Also some servos have pre-mixed two-stroke fuel, kerosene or firewood available, just in case you drive a ride-on mower or a wood-fired traction engine with satnav. Or maybe that's going a little too far. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: The problem with E10 for most cars is it doesn't recognise the extra oxygen atom Australian electronic fuel injection systems have O2 sensors, this isn't a problem. The reduced energy of E10 compared to the same volume of petrol is a problem, is basic physics, and can't be changed. and making food production more expensive and so the world goes on starving. People don't starve for a worldwide lack of food, they starve because the excess of food is in the wrong place, ie, not their belly. This is caused by world politics, corruption, local warlords, complete lack of central government in some places, etc, and the application of more food in places that already have enough won't fix any of that. Of course if they pumped the waste from coal fire power plants into green houses that have water tanks full of algea and then turn the algea into fuel you gat something like 40,000-80,000L of ethernol per acre, it gets rid of all the emissions in a safe manner and we don't need to import crude oil. But of course that would be too smart so we can't have that. Ethanol producers have pulled a fast one on the public and hooked government subsidies to create a very profitable and completely unsustainable industry. They won't let that go. Your solution still isn't carbon neutral either because you're burning coal, but that's a hell of a lot better than burning coal *and* oil. Our only feasible truly carbon neutral options are solar and nuclear. Solar's expensive and nuclear scares the NIMBYs even though it releases less radioactive waste than burning coal. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia BP service station dataset - suitable for bulk import?
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: As if the govt doesn't get enough tax already, and they get tax on top of tax when the GST kicks in. The government gets *less* money from E10. Fuel excise is reduced and its production is subsidised. Anyway, this is getting off topic, Yes, but a near-incoherant rant is good fun sometimes. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Help with a couple of things
Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: a fence and medium strip dividing the two. That's median, meaning in the middle. Not medium, which means average. Pet peeve. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: Most people aren't taught to drive or grow up on dirt roads, I only have a 2wd car and I'll drive it on roads some/most people wouldn't, so that's a bit too subjective... Ditto for me. If it'll go I'll drive it, and occasionally when it won't. However commenting on what crazy people do on unsurfaced road is less subjective, you just assume the worst :) They roads I'm willing to drive on, we probably come to the same answer anyway. I am a crazy person who drives fast on rough roads. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
swanilli swani...@gmail.com wrote: I have tired to find some official definitions to clarify this. Here is the Australian Standard definition of a road from AS 1348?2002 Road and traffic engineering?Glossary of terms: road: Route trafficable by motor vehicles; in law, the public right-of-way between boundaries of adjoining property Wikipedia says: A road is an identifiable route, way or path between places. That definition isn't any more useful or relevant than the one you found. Here is a pragmatic solution based on AS 1348 and OSM custom: highway=road if it is open to the public and located between property boundaries, regardless of surface. highway=road means A road of unknown classification. This is intended as a temporary tag to mark a road until it has been properly surveyed. If it is within a property (including National Parks and State Forests): - unsealed: highway=track - sealed: highway=service How is the proximity of a property boundary relevant to the tagging of the type of road? Tagging should be defined by things such as surface, width, lane markings, what's at the end of the road, etc. As a map user, it doesn't matter to me if the road is between adjoining properties, a public right of way through the middle of private property, or a road through a State Forest or National Park. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] When does a road become a track?
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: I think he meant highway=unclassified Probably, but that's not going to be right all the time either. Not proximity of a boundary, is it within a boundary or not. I still don't think that matters for tagging the road, only for tagging land use. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] ?WinCE program
Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: does anyone know if gosmore or navit or other program can be persuaded to work on one of these machines? I don't know that much about WinCE, but I think software isn't portable between platforms even on the same chip architecture (eg, ARM). You'd need an SDK or appropriately configured cross-compiler, and those can probably only be (easily) supplied by the device manufacturer. You could just try this: http://wiki.navit-project.org/index.php/Compiling_Navit_for_WinCE/WinMobile I don't know how you'd execute the program once you had it compiled. If you can identify the hardware well enough you may be able to run Linux on it, and after that you can compile anything that runs on Linux. Pull the cover off and look for some markings on the main board and plug them in to Google. Next, try the markings on the biggest chips on the board. If you're lucky someone will have already done it and there will be instructions. You're probably not going to be able to get any of these things working though. Most of the time messing with these dinky embedded systems takes a good deal of knowledge and often an oscilliscope and/or soldering iron. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] navit files
Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 9:55 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: I wonder if it's possible to duplicate the object to break it up into 2 objects instead of one, and strip appropriate tags from the respective objects. Yep, that's the 'correct' solution that I am assuming, without having actually delved in to the code at the moment. The solution outlined by cp15 (see Liz's earlier message) is to modify attr_longest_match to return more than just one match when appropriate. The hard part will be deciding how to determine when more matches should be returned and what those matches should be. Returning too many matches will greatly increase the size of the Navit map file, which is obviously undesirable. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] navit files
Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net wrote: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-34.9378lon=138.6228zoom=13layers=B000FTF http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-34.2954lon=138.9733zoom=12layers=B000FTF Using the latest SVN version of osm2navit, these two and the one near Robertson NSW seem to turn out right. They're routable roads anyway, I don't know how admin boundaries affect Navit. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] navit files
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: Pretty sure I had the same issue when I tried to report their routing engine was screwy too. The idlers and lurkers will read the backlog when they return. Conversations can go very slowly this way, but communication is possible. Bug tracker: http://trac.navit-project.org/ Forums (no idea how closely they're monitored): http://sourceforge.net/projects/navit/forums There doesn't appear to be a mailing list. Alternatively there is plan B, there is a number of people on this list that can code, and even more on the dev list, I'm sure between us we can cook up a suitable patch. Is anyone familiar with the osm2navit code at all? I've looked it over a few times and even modified it a little. It's 5500 lines of dense code with lots of global variables, nearly no comments and a highly abstracted attribute-driven metaschema so I'll make no claims of familiarity. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] new toy found by son
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: Or just use a phone with AGPS from the phone network, when I have 3G connectivity on the phone I usually get 2m accuracy and works inside buildings etc. Now we just need 3G connectivity Australia wide :D I thought AGPS didn't help with accuracy, it just helps with faster satellite aquisition by downloading ephemeris data instead of searching blindly for visible satellites. It won't help with surveying a tunnel. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australian version of JOSM
Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: so we wouldn't have Baby Hatch as an amenity WTF is a baby hatch?! Is it like a laundry chute, where babies go when they're dirty and you're finished with them? I'd like one of them thanks. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] New POI mapping application
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: At work we are going to release a new POI mapping application for beta testing tomorrow, initially it will only be for BlackBerry and Android. There is plans to release the same application for iPhones and Windows Mobile at some future stage. Maemo? -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Fwd: [OSM-talk] How to tag giant acorn?
Cosmic Charade cosmichar...@gmail.com wrote: I use Ubuntu with xfce so a similar setup but it runs like a dog on mine for some reason maybe I installed the wrong version of Java or I need to run with some command line options? My laptop is lower powered than yours and JOSM works okay. You need the Sun JRE, it won't work with OpenJDK. The only command line options I use are to set the HTTP proxy. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Navteq mapping AU
James Livingston doc...@mac.com wrote: That reminds me of something I was wishing for a couple of months ago, trying to find a rental place after moving to Brisbane - one of those web sites that made better use of geodata. Some of the good ones will shop you a map with a house icon for each property that is for rent/ sale, but a lot don't do even that. What I really wanted was a site that would do the above, and also tell me how long it would take to talk to the nearest public transport, catch it, and walk to my work at the other end[0]. Plus where the nearest shops were, if there were any parks or sports facilities nearby and so on. If you were a relocating Australian Defence Forces member, my employer (http://www.dha.gov.au/) would provide you with a service that does a lot of this stuff. Unfortunately it relies on Sensis, but it mostly works pretty well. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] http://www.opengeodata.org/?p=662
John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote: I'd like to think things were that active in Australia map wise but I don't think that's an accurate picture :) I have around 800 messages in my mailbox from the past month from this list. That puts us soundly in the 549 - 2648 range (where did those numbers come from?). Depending on which green is which, that map may actually be correct when it comes to mailing list posts. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] mailing lists and replying to them.
John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote: Any point in asking to have this list default changed to reply to list or would that be inviting a pointlessly endless argument with no outcome? You'll get me posting this, as I do on every list that this discussion comes up on: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html I understand but will never accept the opposing position as I use a mail client that does handle reply-to-list correctly and have no sympathy for people who choose to use poor quality software when better alternatives exist. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] navit
John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote:
Nothing special, just followed the directions on this wiki page:
http://www.rigacci.org/wiki/doku.php/doc/appunti/hardware/eeepc_navit
As a result, most of the towns and suburbs in Australia can't be
searched for due to a lack of is_in tags. My patch for osm2navit
(attached) is a bit heavy-handed but trivial. If you've got a build
environment set up for navit, give it a go.
--
Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au
OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C
Index: navit/osm2navit.c
===
--- navit/osm2navit.c (revision 2448)
+++ navit/osm2navit.c (working copy)
@@ -1424,7 +1424,9 @@
if (item_is_town(*item_bin) attr_strings[attr_string_label]) {
char *tok,*buf=is_in_buffer;
if (!buf[0])
-strcpy(is_in_buffer, Unknown);
+strncpy(buf, Australia, BUFFER_SIZE);
+ else
+strncat(buf, , Australia, BUFFER_SIZE - strlen(buf));
while ((tok=strtok(buf, ,))) {
while (*tok==' ')
tok++;
signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
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Re: [talk-au] A possible way to promote OSM
b.schulz...@scu.edu.au b.schulz...@scu.edu.au wrote: If anybody's got ideas on how to incorporate it into a maths lesson I'm all ears too. My high school maths touched on surveying, which is all geometry and trigonometry. Map your school, the nearby playing field or shops or whatever and calculate boundary lengths or areas of various features. For senior high school students, what about studying a bit of the maths involved in GPS? Techniques used in triangulation and estimating error, for example. You may want to include relativistic effects such as frequency shifts and time corrections for your best students. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] A possible way to promote OSM
Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: Your problem John, is that you are confusing educating people with providing them with a School Certificate or whatever I have never let my schooling interfere with my education. -- Mark Twain -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Street Abbv. patch for validator plugin
John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote: Java flavoured, and I'm not talking about tasting coffee here :) Java regexes are almost Perl-compatible regexes (PCRE). You are probably correct, it's taken me a number of years to get my head round regex for the amount I dabble in at present, and I have no idea which would be more efficient for the parser... Some people, when confronted with a problem, think I know, I'll use regular expressions. Now they have two problems. -- Jamie Zawinski in comp.emacs.xemacs The quote isn't quite true, but it's witty and something to keep in mind: regexes are hard to write right and even harder to read. I believe the \.? expression is more efficient than (|.), and I also think it's easier to read. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Canberra Mapping Party Event Diary
Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: and the shame of having ridden my bike to the Waters Edge Restaurant and not mapped it :-( I ride along that waterfront twice every weekday. Never mapped any of it, or any other part of my ride. My (poor) excuse is that I don't have a pushbike mount for my n810. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to make unamed streets stand out on JOSM?
b.schulz...@scu.edu.au b.schulz...@scu.edu.au wrote: If you feel like learning how to compile Java code then this page gives some instructions: http://www.cs.usfca.edu/~parrt/course/601/lectures/java.tools.html Whoa, too complicated! And difficult to make work for anything less trivial than Hello World. Most people use Maven or Ant. Looks like the validator plugin uses Ant. The SVN repository is at: http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/editors/josm/plugins/validator/ I'd like to say it's as simple as just running 'ant', but it looks like the validator build.xml assumes the location of a few jar files. Basically the command javac is the Java compiler. You run it against .java files to build .class files. The .jar is just a tarball containing a whole directory structure of source code and compiled code (.java's and .class's). JAR files are really ZIP format, not tarballs. But that's an unimportant detail, especially since you don't really want to be running jar or javac manually in most cases. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to make unamed streets stand out on JOSM?
John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote: It's also used from within eclipse, which I already know how to use for making apps for Android, but no idea about making libraries for JOSM... I'd expect the output from the ant script would be the plugin JAR file, which you can probably copy into ~/.josm/plugins and restart JOSM. It shouldn't be any more difficult than that. It can probably be built with ant outside Eclipse too if you want. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Junctions (to name or not to name)
Rick Peterson ausr...@iinet.net.au wrote: Originally, I didn't name roundabout junctions, but when I validate my work in JOSM, it identifies them as 'Unnamed Ways' in the warnings section. I've tried naming a few using the name of the primary road that connects with the junction. The validation warnings disappear, however, the rendered work looks messy as the streets AND roundabouts get named at close zooms. My oh so carefully considered (at least 30 seconds) opinion is that the renderer is broken and shouldn't put names on junction=roundabout ways. I think the roundabout ways should be tagged with the name of the primary through road. I've had a look at the wiki information on junctions, however there doesn't seem to be any information about whether to name or not to name the junctions ( see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%3Droundabout ) Any advice or comments ? Only to say that the same questions are raised by motorway_link and primary_link, except they're even more important when listening to routing directions. And those questions aren't answered in the Wiki either, as far as I can tell. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_link A collection of unnamed links that confuse drivers when routing software doesn't know where to direct them, and for free, one unnamed roundabout: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-35.32041lon=149.06245zoom=17layers=B000FTF -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Running stats against GPX files ...
John Smith delta_foxt...@yahoo.com wrote: --- On Tue, 23/6/09, Graeme Wilson wandere...@live.com.au wrote: I also think that the GPX file is too verbose with all the XML formatting, and reckon that it will fill up the servers with too much unnecessary stuff. I have been told that for copyright purposes, all the data etc that is uploaded is to be kept forever. Lot of redundant stuff there. It's true that XML is very verbose. However all that verbosity compresses extremely well, so it's not really a significant problem. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Rivers
Andy Owen andy-...@ultra-premium.com wrote: I have a nokia n810 which I have used on foot to edit a map in the middle of the day. I have one of these too, with mounts for the car and motorcycle. I haven't yet sorted out a mount for the pushbike, but given that all urban and suburban areas around me are already mapped I may never need it. I used osm2go: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/osm2go/ Thanks for this pointer. I've seen the program listed in the application manager but never tried it until now. It's really good. I think I might replace Maemo Mapper GPX tracks and lots of post-processing in JOSM with osm2go. If you are a programmer, then you probably want one of these, otherwise, take my enthusiasm for it and halve it :) I am a programmer, and I love my n810. I'd be a little reluctant to recommend it to my Dad, for example, given the fiddling necessary to really get the most out of the device. He, like most people, would also want it to be a mobile phone. But for those that don't mind fiddling or enjoy playing with gadgets, it's awesome and very capable. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries - getting close
BlueMM bluemm1975-...@yahoo.com wrote: I also like Jack's suggestion on name old_name, plus the is_in tag. +1 for the is_in tag from me, definitely with , Australia appended. My reasons are pretty selfish - My choice of GPS software is Navit and it requires the is_in tag to search for towns. I'd be happy enough to try to modify the software to not require is_in but I haven't seen a better solution. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] What gives with roundabouts?
Sean 4ey0ll...@sneakemail.com wrote: program or device will still display the way as a roundabout that the user will still understand what it is even if the roundabout tag is removed. The user may understand, but the device won't if there are no tags. However I see below that I've been misunderstanding what you've been saying, and you're not saying to get rid of the tags. As you said It's relatively easy to do then, could you please supply the code or tell them how to do it. I'm sure it would be greatly appreciated. When I say relatively easy I mean relative to the significant effort required to build the entire conversion process. I don't mean trivial. I'm not advocating the removal of any tags. I'm advocating that all roundabouts no matter on size be drawn as a way and be tagged as juction=roundabout. Okay, this makes a lot of sense. Sorry but I missed this part of your argument before. Tagging the roundabout in some way is very important to preserve meaning, not just appearance. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Wild guess surveying
80n 80n...@gmail.com wrote: A straight line between two places is better than no line. A straight line is at least topograhically correct, which for road navigation is incredibly useful. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] What gives with roundabouts?
Sean 4ey0ll...@sneakemail.com wrote: I never said I was mapping for a particular program or device. Garmin was just an example. I'm mapping for all programs and devices. As all programs or devices can render a loop way it just makes more since to do it that way. I don't know of any devices that consume OSM data without some kind of conversion process. That conversion process is the only way to relate OSM data to a particular device. So the representation of data in the OSM database really doesn't matter to any end devices, only to the conversion. It's relatively easy for a converter to take, for example, a node tagged mini_roundabout and substitute a small circular way if that makes sense for the destination device/format. It's very difficult (call it impossible) to go back the other way for a device that does actually understand what a roundabout is. What you are advocating removes a tag that means something, whatever that is defined to mean, and replaces it with something that means nothing in the best case, and is confusing (to the device, hopefully not the human operator, but then hopefully they're driving, not looking at the device) in the worst case. It's nearly always best to keep as much meaning as possible in source data. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Mapping bushwalks
Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally I think its these sort of mapping which are going to the most useful in OSM, ie as street mapping via Tomtom and Garmin is cheap as.. Tomtom and Garmin are relatively cheap in some ways, but they're not Free. I can't use either of them the way I want and there's essentially no possibility of that ever changing. The value of OSM for me is the O. Even if OSM never quite matches the big players for plain old street mapping and routing, which is their primary market and my primary use case, I'll still prefer OSM. but tracks like this are what makes this a useful project. ie unusual POI's or tracks not captured by commercial maps. And I can see that people who aren't computer nerds like me and can't just write their own software see the greatest value in the obscure, the niche, the data that for a commercial venture is too difficult and too low return to chase down. What I like best is that OSM can be both of these things without compromising on either. -- Sam Couter | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Gosmore vs Radomir
Peter Ross [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PS I wish the reply-to for this list was the list not the person sending the email. Bad idea: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html You need to configure your mailer to know what mailing lists you're subscribed to, and use list-reply instead of reply. -- Sam Couter | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] FW: should we migrate to osm forum
Luke Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [ wall of text and other stuff deleted ] Luke, you're doing a good job of demonstrating the main argument against mailing lists: Poor mail clients. You need to choose a better one. -- Sam Couter | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/talk-au
