Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 9:06 AM, nwastra  wrote:

> Putting the sources on the objects has been deprecated for a while. The
> source should be put on the changeset only. If you are doing edits that
> involve several different sources, it is best to split the changes up
> into different changesets. Of course this is not always possible, then
> you can also put several sources in the changeset source tag.
>
> Adding the source to the objects was deprecated, too fined-grained
> source tagging simply doesn't make much sense. We can not track every
> source for every node, way, or relation or the parts of them for every
> tiny change that somebody does. In the end most data will have multiple
> sources and figuring out what came from what can only be done going
> through the changeset tags, not by looking at the tags on the data
> itself.
>
> Jochen
> --
> Jochen Topf
>
>
I have been known to use the name:source=* and maxspeed:source=* keys as
Oklahoma signage is generously described as "creative", causing people to
sometimes incorrectly clear name=* or replace it.  This tends to occur most
commonly on highways renamed within roughly the last 5-10 years, and on
dual carriageways where one carriageway has a different name than the
opposite carriageway.  And posting countywide speed limits exactly one time
at the county boundary on a sign apparently written in 3 point Flyspeck
font, hidden in a bush

...
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Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[Michał Brzozowski]

I, for one, use source tags extensively when tracing from multiple
sources, e.g. when I trace buildings from a county's WMS layer, but
supplement it with Bing / Geoportal when for whatever reason a
building is omitted from the WMS. Using separate changesets for
different sources seems pretty overcomplicated, especially when I
would leave them open.
For quite a long time people doing address imports in Poland use
source:addr, so any POI added to address nodes or any building traced
don't create ambiguity.

Michał

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 12:27 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
> 2017-03-27 23:17 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> Source tags on features within the OSM data base have not been depreciated
>> to my knowledge
>
>
>
> let's say it like this: their use is discouraged, because the concept
> doesn't work for OSM.
> You can see this reflected here:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 28 Mar 2017, at 13:21, nwastra  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the link Martin.
> It is well written and helps me a great deal on this matter.


although you can put source tags on objects, there's much more sense* to adding 
the "bezier=yes/no" tag on ways, and nearly nobody does the latter: 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/bezier
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/curved

strange.

Cheers,
Martin 




* because it is the only way to tell whether a way has straight edges or is the 
approximation on a curve.
example: this lake would look very different if the edges were meant to be 
curves (as is frequent with lakes): http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/22883200
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[OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[nwastra]

Thanks for the link Martin.
It is well written and helps me a great deal on this matter.
Nev
> On 28 Mar 2017, at 8:27 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 2017-03-27 23:17 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> >:
> Source tags on features within the OSM data base have not been depreciated to 
> my knowledge
> 
> 
> let's say it like this: their use is discouraged, because the concept doesn't 
> work for OSM.
> You can see this reflected here: 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source 
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-03-27 23:17 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> Source tags on features within the OSM data base have not been depreciated
> to my knowledge



let's say it like this: their use is discouraged, because the concept
doesn't work for OSM.
You can see this reflected here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[Martin Raifer]

> I didn't know that iD doesn't allow you to set the source on the changesets 
> as somebody mentioned. If that is true, I see this as a shortcoming of iD 
> that should be fixed.

iD has changeset tag editing since a few weeks (which allows anyone to
set the changeset's source tag). It just waits to be rolled out on
osm.org with the next minor release of iD. See
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/pull/3898

On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 9:25 AM, Jochen Topf  wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 10:41:38AM +0200, Jochen Topf wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 03:56:43PM +1000, nwastra wrote:
>> > I am unsure what is the preferred way or best practice to tag the source 
>> > for multipolygons.
>> > I currently put the source on the relation with all the rest of the tags, 
>> > and only adding tags to individual ways or inner polygons if they are also 
>> > part of a seperate entity like a fence or a body of water. I also include 
>> > the source with the uploaded change-set. This would seem to be ok when 
>> > adding a new mp relation.
>> >
>> > Should the source also be added to all the individual ways that make up 
>> > the outer and inner boundaries of each polygon?
>> > Is this also the preferred way when adding a new large mp relation that 
>> > does not currently exist?
>> >
>> > When replacing individual ways or splitting and altering part of a way 
>> > with updated data, adding the new source tag to those new ways would seem 
>> > best practice or is it sufficient to added the source to the change-sets 
>> > alone?
>> >
>> > Is the most sensible way to initially add the source tags to the relation 
>> > and change-set upload alone and from then on as individual parts are 
>> > amended, to add the source to just the updated/corrected ways and the 
>> > change-set on upload?
>> >
>> > I have not come across guidance for this on the wki yet.
>>
>> Putting the sources on the objects has been deprecated for a while. The
>> source should be put on the changeset only. If you are doing edits that
>> involve several different sources, it is best to split the changes up
>> into different changesets. Of course this is not always possible, then
>> you can also put several sources in the changeset source tag.
>>
>> Adding the source to the objects was deprecated, too fined-grained
>> source tagging simply doesn't make much sense. We can not track every
>> source for every node, way, or relation or the parts of them for every
>> tiny change that somebody does. In the end most data will have multiple
>> sources and figuring out what came from what can only be done going
>> through the changeset tags, not by looking at the tags on the data
>> itself.
>
> I probably shouldn't have used the word "deprecated", because there is
> no mechanism in OSM do deprecate anything. This is more "common
> practice" really. Martin has already described why source tags on
> objects don't work well. In theory they might or might not be a good
> idea, but in practice we have seen in OSM that they don't work. The
> source tag is just not updated in a way that makes it useful. Since we
> introduced changesets, we can do better: We put the actual data into OSM
> objects, but the meta-data that describes the why and how of the mapping
> we put into the changesets. (I didn't know that iD doesn't allow you to
> set the source on the changesets as somebody mentioned. If that is true,
> I see this as a shortcoming of iD that should be fixed.) This has the
> added benefit of putting the meta-data that is seldomly used on the
> changesets keeping the actual OSM objects lean and mean.
>
> Now regarding the splitting up of changesets for different sources. If
> you are doing different things this absolutely makes sense and, I would
> argue, is even necessary to be able to add good changeset comments,
> which you should always do. So if you come back from a mapping survey
> and add the data you collected outside with source "survey" and then go
> to a different part of the planet and add a few things from "bing",
> those should be two changesets. Of course, if you add the geometry of a
> road from Bing and the name from your survey, it makes total sense to
> add the source "bing;survey" or something like it.
>
> As always, there are few hard-and-fast rules in OSM. That's good because
> everbody can decide for themselves which arguments they find convincing
> and which advice to follow. So if you want to keep adding "source" tags,
> that's fine, too.
>
> Jochen
> --
> Jochen Topf  joc...@remote.org  https://www.jochentopf.com/  +49-351-31778688
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[Jochen Topf]

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 10:41:38AM +0200, Jochen Topf wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 03:56:43PM +1000, nwastra wrote:
> > I am unsure what is the preferred way or best practice to tag the source 
> > for multipolygons.
> > I currently put the source on the relation with all the rest of the tags, 
> > and only adding tags to individual ways or inner polygons if they are also 
> > part of a seperate entity like a fence or a body of water. I also include 
> > the source with the uploaded change-set. This would seem to be ok when 
> > adding a new mp relation.
> > 
> > Should the source also be added to all the individual ways that make up the 
> > outer and inner boundaries of each polygon? 
> > Is this also the preferred way when adding a new large mp relation that 
> > does not currently exist?
> >   
> > When replacing individual ways or splitting and altering part of a way with 
> > updated data, adding the new source tag to those new ways would seem best 
> > practice or is it sufficient to added the source to the change-sets alone?
> > 
> > Is the most sensible way to initially add the source tags to the relation 
> > and change-set upload alone and from then on as individual parts are 
> > amended, to add the source to just the updated/corrected ways and the 
> > change-set on upload?
> > 
> > I have not come across guidance for this on the wki yet.
> 
> Putting the sources on the objects has been deprecated for a while. The
> source should be put on the changeset only. If you are doing edits that
> involve several different sources, it is best to split the changes up
> into different changesets. Of course this is not always possible, then
> you can also put several sources in the changeset source tag.
> 
> Adding the source to the objects was deprecated, too fined-grained
> source tagging simply doesn't make much sense. We can not track every
> source for every node, way, or relation or the parts of them for every
> tiny change that somebody does. In the end most data will have multiple
> sources and figuring out what came from what can only be done going
> through the changeset tags, not by looking at the tags on the data
> itself.

I probably shouldn't have used the word "deprecated", because there is
no mechanism in OSM do deprecate anything. This is more "common
practice" really. Martin has already described why source tags on
objects don't work well. In theory they might or might not be a good
idea, but in practice we have seen in OSM that they don't work. The
source tag is just not updated in a way that makes it useful. Since we
introduced changesets, we can do better: We put the actual data into OSM
objects, but the meta-data that describes the why and how of the mapping
we put into the changesets. (I didn't know that iD doesn't allow you to
set the source on the changesets as somebody mentioned. If that is true,
I see this as a shortcoming of iD that should be fixed.) This has the
added benefit of putting the meta-data that is seldomly used on the
changesets keeping the actual OSM objects lean and mean.

Now regarding the splitting up of changesets for different sources. If
you are doing different things this absolutely makes sense and, I would
argue, is even necessary to be able to add good changeset comments,
which you should always do. So if you come back from a mapping survey
and add the data you collected outside with source "survey" and then go
to a different part of the planet and add a few things from "bing",
those should be two changesets. Of course, if you add the geometry of a
road from Bing and the name from your survey, it makes total sense to
add the source "bing;survey" or something like it.

As always, there are few hard-and-fast rules in OSM. That's good because
everbody can decide for themselves which arguments they find convincing
and which advice to follow. So if you want to keep adding "source" tags,
that's fine, too.

Jochen
-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[Warin]

You will have an objection from me!

Source tags on features within the OSM data base have not been depreciated to 
my knowledge.. if they were I would more to revert that depreciation.



On 28-Mar-17 01:06 AM, nwastra wrote:
Jochen, ridding the osm of these unnecessary source tags seems like a 
good candidate for our MapRoulette challenge. :)


Putting the sources on the objects has been deprecated for a while. 
The source should be put on the changeset only. If you are doing edits 
that involve several different sources, it is best to split the 
changes up into different changesets. Of course this is not always 
possible, then you can also put several sources in the changeset 
source tag. Adding the source to the objects was deprecated, too 
fined-grained source tagging simply doesn't make much sense. We can 
not track every source for every node, way, or relation or the parts 
of them for every tiny change that somebody does. In the end most data 
will have multiple sources and figuring out what came from what can 
only be done going through the changeset tags, not by looking at the 
tags on the data itself. Jochen -- Jochen Topf




N


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Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-03-27 16:20 GMT+02:00 Dave F :

> Individual entities can have multiple source tags added at different
> times. It would be far harder to 'track' their sources if only add to
> changesets. When editing an object you can instantaneously see the sources
> if added to it.
>


frankly, the thing I am most interested when it comes to source tags is to
understand whether the thing was created from osm mappers or imported and
whether the mapper who edited something has been there or not (and if he's
been there, when). To a limited extend I'm also interested in seeing what
kind of aerial imagery has been used, but generally you can see the quality
by comparing with your favorite imagery.

The big problem with object source tags is that they apply properties which
belong to an editing action (the source of the edit, which is only part of
the sources for the object, the latter is usually made of several versions)
to an object. To give an example how this fails: if an object has "survey"
tagged as object source, how should later edits deal with this? Usually
they do not remove it, so that any later edit can either be based on
another survey or not, you will not see it with object source tags (but
you'll see it with changeset comments).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[Dave F]

Comments inline:

On 27/03/2017 09:41, Jochen Topf wrote:
Putting the sources on the objects has been deprecated for a while. 


Which wiki describes that?


The source should be put on the changeset only.


Apart from JOSM, which editors allow that?

If you are doing edits that involve several different sources, it is 
best to split the changes up into different changesets. Of course this 
is not always possible, then you can also put several sources in the 
changeset source tag. Adding the source to the objects was deprecated, 
too fined-grained source tagging simply doesn't make much sense. We 
can not track every source for every node, way, or relation or the 
parts of them for every tiny change that somebody does.


Could you expand on 'tracking' please?
Individual entities can have multiple source tags added at different 
times. It would be far harder to 'track' their sources if only add to 
changesets. When editing an object you can instantaneously see the 
sources if added to it.


In the end most data will have multiple sources and figuring out what 
came from what can only be done going through the changeset tags, not 
by looking at the tags on the data itself.


Not true, you can individualize the source tag with hyphens.

DaveF



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[OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[nwastra]

Jochen, ridding the osm of these unnecessary source tags seems like a good 
candidate for our MapRoulette challenge. :)


Putting the sources on the objects has been deprecated for a while. The source 
should be put on the changeset only. If you are doing edits that involve 
several different sources, it is best to split the changes up into different 
changesets. Of course this is not always possible, then you can also put 
several sources in the changeset source tag. Adding the source to the objects 
was deprecated, too fined-grained source tagging simply doesn't make much 
sense. We can not track every source for every node, way, or relation or the 
parts of them for every tiny change that somebody does. In the end most data 
will have multiple sources and figuring out what came from what can only be 
done going through the changeset tags, not by looking at the tags on the data 
itself. Jochen -- Jochen Topf



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Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[David Jenne]

In most of my edits, a source tag for the changeset would be appropriate.   But 
how does one go about doing this using the ID editor?  The only possible entry 
point I can see is in the "Changeset Comments" section.

Thanks,
Dave

> -Original Message-
> From: Andy Townsend [mailto:ajt1...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 3:24 AM
> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method
> 
> Ahem.  Just because _you_ don't do it, doesn't make it "wrong".
> 
> Yes, where a whole bunch of stuff has been added from one source (or a
> combination of sources), of course it makes sense to do that on the
> changeset not on individual objects (and editors that show a consolidated
> object history will show source tags from all of these).
> 
> However, there may be cases - imagine a road junction that you've visited
> that has changed since the available imagery - where a source tag on objects
> may make sense.  Also, splitting into different changesets per source tag
> sounds like a silly idea...
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Andy
> 
> 



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Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[Andy Townsend]

On 27/03/2017 09:41, Jochen Topf wrote:


Putting the sources on the objects has been deprecated for a while.


Ahem.  Just because _you_ don't do it, doesn't make it "wrong".

Yes, where a whole bunch of stuff has been added from one source (or a 
combination of sources), of course it makes sense to do that on the 
changeset not on individual objects (and editors that show a 
consolidated object history will show source tags from all of these).


However, there may be cases - imagine a road junction that you've 
visited that has changed since the available imagery - where a source 
tag on objects may make sense.  Also, splitting into different 
changesets per source tag sounds like a silly idea...


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[Jochen Topf]

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 03:56:43PM +1000, nwastra wrote:
> I am unsure what is the preferred way or best practice to tag the source for 
> multipolygons.
> I currently put the source on the relation with all the rest of the tags, and 
> only adding tags to individual ways or inner polygons if they are also part 
> of a seperate entity like a fence or a body of water. I also include the 
> source with the uploaded change-set. This would seem to be ok when adding a 
> new mp relation.
> 
> Should the source also be added to all the individual ways that make up the 
> outer and inner boundaries of each polygon? 
> Is this also the preferred way when adding a new large mp relation that does 
> not currently exist?
>   
> When replacing individual ways or splitting and altering part of a way with 
> updated data, adding the new source tag to those new ways would seem best 
> practice or is it sufficient to added the source to the change-sets alone?
> 
> Is the most sensible way to initially add the source tags to the relation and 
> change-set upload alone and from then on as individual parts are amended, to 
> add the source to just the updated/corrected ways and the change-set on 
> upload?
> 
> I have not come across guidance for this on the wki yet.

Putting the sources on the objects has been deprecated for a while. The
source should be put on the changeset only. If you are doing edits that
involve several different sources, it is best to split the changes up
into different changesets. Of course this is not always possible, then
you can also put several sources in the changeset source tag.

Adding the source to the objects was deprecated, too fined-grained
source tagging simply doesn't make much sense. We can not track every
source for every node, way, or relation or the parts of them for every
tiny change that somebody does. In the end most data will have multiple
sources and figuring out what came from what can only be done going
through the changeset tags, not by looking at the tags on the data
itself.

Jochen
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Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-03-27 9:46 GMT+02:00 David Fox :

> Amendments within changesets can have multiple sources. Each entity can
> have multiple sources.



sure, you can add multiple sources to the changeset.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[David Fox]

Amendments within changesets can have multiple sources. Each entity can have 
multiple sources.



On 27 March 2017, at 08:29, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:



sent from a phone

> On 27 Mar 2017, at 07:56, nwastra  wrote:
> 
> I am unsure what is the preferred way or best practice to tag the source for 
> multipolygons.


as with any edit, the source should be put on the changeset (i.e. the object 
which represents the edit), not on the data objects (node/way/relation).

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 27 Mar 2017, at 07:56, nwastra  wrote:
> 
> I am unsure what is the preferred way or best practice to tag the source for 
> multipolygons.


as with any edit, the source should be put on the changeset (i.e. the object 
which represents the edit), not on the data objects (node/way/relation).

cheers,
Martin 
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[OSM-talk] multipolygon source tags preferred method

[nwastra]

I am unsure what is the preferred way or best practice to tag the source for 
multipolygons.
I currently put the source on the relation with all the rest of the tags, and 
only adding tags to individual ways or inner polygons if they are also part of 
a seperate entity like a fence or a body of water. I also include the source 
with the uploaded change-set. This would seem to be ok when adding a new mp 
relation.

Should the source also be added to all the individual ways that make up the 
outer and inner boundaries of each polygon? 
Is this also the preferred way when adding a new large mp relation that does 
not currently exist?
  
When replacing individual ways or splitting and altering part of a way with 
updated data, adding the new source tag to those new ways would seem best 
practice or is it sufficient to added the source to the change-sets alone?

Is the most sensible way to initially add the source tags to the relation and 
change-set upload alone and from then on as individual parts are amended, to 
add the source to just the updated/corrected ways and the change-set on upload?

I have not come across guidance for this on the wki yet.

Tks
 
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