Re: [OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
Ævar Agreed, but you personally control the openstreetmap twitter account don't you? If you think waze's twitter account is nice (what it mostly does is answer a bunch of user questions, which implies a dedicated support team sitting behind it). Then perhaps you should give other people access to that account so they can field user questions under the of OpenStreetMap banner. Access to the Twitter account, and to posting on OGD, is open. I think your suggestions to answer user questions through our media streams is a good one. More generally, I agree with your point that we should have more of a let's just do it culture, but it also doesn't help much to have what are essentially unfinished drive-by improvements like the website redesign and now the logo which just seem to stir up a lot of dust, and never go anywhere. I don't mean that it's your fault, just that there's obviously a lot of disagreement about what we should be doing. I we keep having these discussions because don't have any clear direction for what we want to *do* with OpenStreetMap.org. I think the most effective way to push forward what osm.org could be is by demonstrating ideas with code. Isn't the code base now on github? Start forking, trying out ideas ... things that work are going to be more convincing than our descriptions of what to do. Code that works (in all senses) should make it out to production. These can even be small details. I really really like the additional icons on the browse pages. http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/dankarran/diary/10695 Best Mikel ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 07:38, Mikel Maron mikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: I think the most effective way to push forward what osm.org could be is by demonstrating ideas with code. Isn't the code base now on github? Start forking, trying out ideas ... things that work are going to be more convincing than our descriptions of what to do. Code that works (in all senses) should make it out to production. Yeah I'm aware of the GitHub mirror, I put it there. Some things lend themselves well to experimental patches. I don't think this is one of those things, for reasons that are about to become apparent. Here's a mockup: http://v.nix.is/~avar/insert-stuff-here.png The contents of the white area would be determined by the aforementioned user editable reviewed page. The brief about blurb that's now right below the logo should probably be the first thing merged into it. Actually, here's what the main content area might look like (this site is based on a mockup Richard did IIRC): http://www.openstreetmap.ca Or perhaps even: http://www.openstreetmap.de The idea is simple. Make the main page something that provides the user with some context, useful (e.g. Garmin) downloads, direct him to other interesting projects (e.g. printouts, routers etc.). What exactly makes the above list we can decide together, that is if we decide that the main page for osm.org shouldn't be one giant map view. I'm not going to spend more time implementing the required code without there being some interest in deploying it. Spending many hours hacking the JS/CSS, setting up a wiki - Git sync (along with a preview) just to be told thanks, but no thanks isn't my idea of fun. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
On 18/05/10 09:39, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 07:38, Mikel Maronmikel_ma...@yahoo.com wrote: I think the most effective way to push forward what osm.org could be is by demonstrating ideas with code. Isn't the code base now on github? Start forking, trying out ideas ... things that work are going to be more convincing than our descriptions of what to do. Code that works (in all senses) should make it out to production. Yeah I'm aware of the GitHub mirror, I put it there. Some things lend themselves well to experimental patches. I don't think this is one of those things, for reasons that are about to become apparent. Here's a mockup: http://v.nix.is/~avar/insert-stuff-here.png The contents of the white area would be determined by the aforementioned user editable reviewed page. The brief about blurb that's now right below the logo should probably be the first thing merged into it. Unfortunately that mockup leaves all the worst bits of the current site intact ;-) Before you all get too carried away with this extra tab idea of Ævar's I would just like to point out what I've said before about adding more tabs, namely that we already have too many and that any attempt add more without doing something about the layout is going to have a hard time getting merged. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 08:49, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote:
On 18/05/10 09:39, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
Here's a mockup:
http://v.nix.is/~avar/insert-stuff-here.png
The contents of the white area would be determined by the
aforementioned user editable reviewed page. The brief about blurb
that's now right below the logo should probably be the first thing
merged into it.
Unfortunately that mockup leaves all the worst bits of the current site
intact ;-)
You'll probably like this one better, it takes the concept of insert
neat stuff here even further, just add imagination:
http://v.nix.is/~avar/insert-neater-stuff-here.png
Before you all get too carried away with this extra tab idea of Ævar's I
would just like to point out what I've said before about adding more tabs,
namely that we already have too many and that any attempt add more without
doing something about the layout is going to have a hard time getting
merged.
Yeah, adding tabs is a pain. Mostly because the spaces the tabs take
conflicts with the space the Hi {{user}} ... line takes.
I suggested (and patched it) at one point to solve that the way
Wikipedia does, by moving them apart. That would leave ~20px less
space for the main map. Not such a big deal if it's not *the* site
element anymore.
It would solve our existing overflow problems, and give us space for
small notices at the top like Would you like to view osm.org in
$language, or head over to the wiki for Haiti mapping... We might
even be able to move the search bar up there, users like the search
field at the top of the page. At least so Google, Wikimedia and others
have gathered.
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Re: [OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
On 18/05/10 10:08, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 08:49, Tom Hughest...@compton.nu wrote:
Before you all get too carried away with this extra tab idea of Ævar's I
would just like to point out what I've said before about adding more tabs,
namely that we already have too many and that any attempt add more without
doing something about the layout is going to have a hard time getting
merged.
Yeah, adding tabs is a pain. Mostly because the spaces the tabs take
conflicts with the space the Hi {{user}} ... line takes.
Quite - it's already an issue with some languages and/or screen sizes
and adding more tabs just makes it worse.
I suggested (and patched it) at one point to solve that the way
Wikipedia does, by moving them apart. That would leave ~20px less
space for the main map. Not such a big deal if it's not *the* site
element anymore.
That doesn't work well on netbook type screens though, where vertical
space is at a premium.
Worse than that, whatever you do the tabs will always overflow if you
have a particularly verbose language and/or narrow window. They are,
basically, just asking for trouble unless you limit yourself to only
having a very small number of them.
It would solve our existing overflow problems, and give us space for
small notices at the top like Would you like to view osm.org in
$language, or head over to the wiki for Haiti mapping... We might
even be able to move the search bar up there, users like the search
field at the top of the page. At least so Google, Wikimedia and others
have gathered.
I don't dispute that it might be nice to move the search bar up there
but I think we should also remove the tabs and find some other way of
navigating between the other major elements of the site.
Tom
--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/
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Re: [OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
Hi, Tom Hughes wrote: Worse than that, whatever you do the tabs will always overflow if you have a particularly verbose language and/or narrow window. They are, basically, just asking for trouble unless you limit yourself to only having a very small number of them. Or unless you get a good designer to draw little icons for each of the tabs. Advantage: no translation necessary, takes very little space. Disadvantage: user feels like reading an IKEA instruction leaflet. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 09:16, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: On 18/05/10 10:08, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: It would solve our existing overflow problems, and give us space for small notices at the top like Would you like to view osm.org in $language, or head over to the wiki for Haiti mapping... We might even be able to move the search bar up there, users like the search field at the top of the page. At least so Google, Wikimedia and others have gathered. I don't dispute that it might be nice to move the search bar up there but I think we should also remove the tabs and find some other way of navigating between the other major elements of the site. I think having a non-giant-map mainpage could be a very large step in that direction. User blogs I think could be moved to such a mainpage (under some Community heading). Rarely do I need to suddenly go to the blogs, I'd be fine with freeing up some space by adding a level of indirection to it. Similarly, perhaps Edit / History / GPS traces could all be consolidated under a View or edit the map. So we'd have: * About - Lists all the neat things about OSM - Short blurb about what it is - You can view/edit/download data - Get in touch, participate, read blawgs * View or edit the map - Get an editing interface with a big map - Edit the data - View / upload traces - See history / browse objects Adding a proper main page could free up a lot of the interface in the long run, since there'd be some non-layout place to put some of the links now in the layout. I think I've advocated this enough. If you want patches you know where to find me. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
Ævar wrote: You'll probably like this one better, it takes the concept of insert neat stuff here even further, just add imagination: http://v.nix.is/~avar/insert-neater-stuff-here.png Lol! Reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon The Technology Demo. Dilbert, the nerdy engineer, is presenting to an audience in front of a blank screen. The software isn't 100% complete, he says. Pointing to different parts of the blank screen, he goes on If it had a user interface you would see something here...here...and sometimes here. He turns back to the audience and finishes and then you'd be saying, 'I gotta get me some of that', pauses, Any questions? So yes, Ævar, looks great, I gotta get me some of that!! Steve -- ___ Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way: Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: Before you all get too carried away with this extra tab idea of Ævar's I would just like to point out what I've said before about adding more tabs, namely that we already have too many and that any attempt add more without doing something about the layout is going to have a hard time getting merged. Easy fix: Remove the GPS Traces and User Diaries tabs and add links to these near Help Wiki in the left column. This would add length to the left column, but remember that the blurb under the logo would no longer be needed - this would be moved to the landing tab. I like it. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
On 18/05/10 21:07, Roy Wallace wrote: On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:49 PM, Tom Hughest...@compton.nu wrote: Before you all get too carried away with this extra tab idea of Ævar's I would just like to point out what I've said before about adding more tabs, namely that we already have too many and that any attempt add more without doing something about the layout is going to have a hard time getting merged. Easy fix: Remove the GPS Traces and User Diaries tabs and add links to these near Help Wiki in the left column. Yes, because we never get any complaints about things in the left column being pushed too far down the page so adding more things there won't be a problem at all. Those other links on the left would quite likely move to the landing page anyway, so wouldn't be there to be added to ;-) This would add length to the left column, but remember that the blurb under the logo would no longer be needed - this would be moved to the landing tab. Removing the blurb certainly helps, though that only appears when you aren't logged in anyway. I like it. I don't. We need to be radical, not just fiddle with the details. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 6:12 AM, Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu wrote: Easy fix: Remove the GPS Traces and User Diaries tabs and add links to these near Help Wiki in the left column. Yes, because we never get any complaints about things in the left column being pushed too far down the page so adding more things there won't be a problem at all. Those other links on the left would quite likely move to the landing page anyway, so wouldn't be there to be added to ;-) Ok...problem solved then, right? We need to be radical, not just fiddle with the details. No we don't - we just need a good result. I thought I addressed your major concern with Ævar's idea (i.e. too many tabs). What else is wrong with it? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] How can we spread the tribal knowledge?
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 21:43, SteveC st...@asklater.com wrote: Some selective replying... Have a look at waze's twitter feed. *That* is the kind of community building we need to be doing now. Agreed, but you personally control the openstreetmap twitter account don't you? If you think waze's twitter account is nice (what it mostly does is answer a bunch of user questions, which implies a dedicated support team sitting behind it). Then perhaps you should give other people access to that account so they can field user questions under the of OpenStreetMap banner. This is perhaps unfairly snarky, but maybe then we'd have more user help from @openstreetmap and less stuff like this: http://twitter.com/openstreetmap/status/13991402867 That isn't representative of the typical tweet from @openstreetmap, but unhelpful stuff like which you seemingly sent to the wrong account does pop up from time to time. Look at their site design. Look at mapzen. None of it's perfect, but it's generally a lot better than where we are. I think it would be neat if Mapzen was optionally available on OpenStreetMap.org, I asked you about this before[1] and you thought it was too. Perhaps Mapzen's source repository could be hosted publicly somewhere to make that easy? More generally, I agree with your point that we should have more of a let's just do it culture, but it also doesn't help much to have what are essentially unfinished drive-by improvements like the website redesign and now the logo which just seem to stir up a lot of dust, and never go anywhere. I don't mean that it's your fault, just that there's obviously a lot of disagreement about what we should be doing. I we keep having these discussions because don't have any clear direction for what we want to *do* with OpenStreetMap.org. A lot of people here (including, it seems, the people that decide what goes on the site) want openstreetmap.org to be just about the data. That's fine, but at the same time the first thing a newbie sees on the site is a giant map, suggesting we're trying to be some Google Maps-alike. The thing is, we make a very bad Google Maps, just compare stuff like this: http://maps.google.com/maps/place?cid=17295062644392818820 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/427855410 I keep introducing people to OpenStreetMap and they keep asking me questions like that's neat, but how do I get directions, to which the answer is oh there's some third party service that does that, just let me dig it up from some dungeon on the wiki real quick. So how about this for a suggestion: Let's make a new tab on the website to the left of Map called About or Project or something like that. The content of that page would be raw HTML that would be maintained on the wiki somewhere (with a preview before rollout). This is how the http://wikipedia.org/ main page is managed[2]. Then the first thing you'd see when you go to openstreetmap.org would be some context, you'd see that we're a data providing project but that we have an example map. You'd also note that there were a bunch of 3rd party projects that are doing neat things (maposmatic, openstreetbrowse etc.). And that if you wanted something more Google Maps like, or an alternate editor you might enjoy CloudMade, Mapzen, JOSM etc. While we keep fighting over what we should do, a lot of people are already doing it in true OpenStreetMap fashion. They're just not getting as much exposure as they might be getting if they were more prominently advertised. I volunteer to implement the required technical stuff, given that it doesn't get shot down in the replies to follow. 1. http://www.mail-archive.com/d...@openstreetmap.org/msg10573.html 2. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Www.wikipedia.org_template ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
