Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Nicolás Alvarez]

2015-11-15 2:06 GMT-03:00 Daniel Koć :
>
> W dniu 14.11.2015 19:44, tony wroblewski napisał(a):
>
>> I think people need a playpen where they can try out ideas and map
>> before contributing to the main map (Maybe there already is, I don't
>> know). I think it should also be a requirement that people add a
>
>
> I think this is the place for playing with editing OSM (sandbox):
>
> http://master.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org

Sure, you can play with editing there. But you can't see the rendered
result, you can't test routing, you can't test searching/geocoding...
Doesn't seem too useful as a sandbox.

-- 
Nicolás

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Jo]

Indeed, without a feedback loop it's rather moot, an exercise in futility
to edit in the sandbox.

Jo

2015-11-17 0:20 GMT+01:00 Nicolás Alvarez :

> 2015-11-15 2:06 GMT-03:00 Daniel Koć :
> >
> > W dniu 14.11.2015 19:44, tony wroblewski napisał(a):
> >
> >> I think people need a playpen where they can try out ideas and map
> >> before contributing to the main map (Maybe there already is, I don't
> >> know). I think it should also be a requirement that people add a
> >
> >
> > I think this is the place for playing with editing OSM (sandbox):
> >
> > http://master.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org
>
> Sure, you can play with editing there. But you can't see the rendered
> result, you can't test routing, you can't test searching/geocoding...
> Doesn't seem too useful as a sandbox.
>
> --
> Nicolás
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[joost schouppe]

In Belgium we also welcome new mappers, using Pascal Neis service and first
a Google Doc (connected by IFTTT), now Ruben ( M!dgard ) is doing this with
a PHP site he'll clean up one day to share (more info:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Collaborative_tool_for_welcoming_new_mappers
). The message is available here, in Dutch and French:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ekf8tDrCoBQ39mHfN3LgNeyWKbEDqwCsVH3nyp5b5gs
We get about 13% response.

Considering how dispersed OSM resources are, I'm pretty sure this is
useful. Hard to make decent statistics of course.


2015-11-15 19:14 GMT+01:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > Am 14.11.2015 um 15:04 schrieb Michał Brzozowski :
> >
> > I am kind of fed
> > up with how rarely newbies respond to changeset comments and messages.
> > Have you observed such low rate in your area?
>
>
> yes, I also send much more messages to new users than get replied by them
> (maybe 5-10%). Typically, when you see by the editing quantity and
> frequency that a new user is really fascinated by his/her new discovery, it
> is much more probable that you get a reply (more than 50%). The percentages
> are estimated/ gut feelings, but I could look them up if that's interesting
> ;-)
>
> cheers
> Martin
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>



-- 
Joost @
Openstreetmap  |
Twitter  | LinkedIn
 | Meetup
 | Reddit
 | Wordpress

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 14.11.2015 um 15:04 schrieb Michał Brzozowski :
> 
> I am kind of fed
> up with how rarely newbies respond to changeset comments and messages.
> Have you observed such low rate in your area?


yes, I also send much more messages to new users than get replied by them 
(maybe 5-10%). Typically, when you see by the editing quantity and frequency 
that a new user is really fascinated by his/her new discovery, it is much more 
probable that you get a reply (more than 50%). The percentages are estimated/ 
gut feelings, but I could look them up if that's interesting ;-)

cheers 
Martin 
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 14.11.2015 19:44, tony wroblewski napisał(a):


I think people need a playpen where they can try out ideas and map
before contributing to the main map (Maybe there already is, I don't
know). I think it should also be a requirement that people add a


I think this is the place for playing with editing OSM (sandbox):

http://master.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org

--
"Завтра, завтра всё кончится!" [Ф. Достоевский]

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Gerd Petermann]

I like the idea regarding a welcome message from the local community.

My explanation for users who registered without mapping:

They tried to map something, found the used editor too complicated,

and stoped again being afraid to destroy something.

So, I think a 1st welcome message with links to e.g. wiki, Taginfo,

maybe youtube and hints how to find help from locals would

be welcomed by every new user.


Gerd




Von: Marc Zoutendijk <marczoutend...@mac.com>
Gesendet: Samstag, 14. November 2015 23:15
An: Clifford Snow
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap
Betreff: Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?


Op 14 nov. 2015, om 20:49 heeft Clifford Snow 
<cliff...@snowandsnow.us<mailto:cliff...@snowandsnow.us>> het volgende 
geschreven:

I like that concept. I try to invite new users are in the geographic area of 
our meetup group. If I think they need a helpful hint I add it to the welcome 
message. I'd really like to automate the process. Is there a way to automate 
sending messages to all new users or do you have to send each on individually?


Given the number of weekly new mappers (around 10-12) it's easy to send them 
the message individually. I have prepared a basic text that's being used. I 
always check what the first edits are, and based on that I sometimes add a more 
personal note to help them out if it looks they got stuck or if they really 
messed things up.

I'll start doing some statiscal research to see what number of mappers are 
really returning mappers. But this makes only sense after a few more months. I 
also noted that some of those mappers have registered themselves months (even 
years) ago before they start mapping.

Marc.


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Michał Brzozowski]

I watch what new users do, reviewing their work and I am kind of fed
up with how rarely newbies respond to changeset comments and messages.
Have you observed such low rate in your area?
Is there anything we could do in order to increase it? I feel it's so
futile to ever contact these hit-and-run mappers. Maybe we could take
something from vast existing knowledge on online marketing/UX and see
what can be improved?

Michał

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Florian Lohoff]

Hi,

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 03:04:41PM +0100, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> I watch what new users do, reviewing their work and I am kind of fed
> up with how rarely newbies respond to changeset comments and messages.
> Have you observed such low rate in your area?
> Is there anything we could do in order to increase it? I feel it's so
> futile to ever contact these hit-and-run mappers. Maybe we could take
> something from vast existing knowledge on online marketing/UX and see
> what can be improved?

My experience is that old-timers are much harder to communicate with. 

Newbies are mostly really happy to find somebody communicating
and telling them about better and more tools to find stuff and how
stuff works. 

Oldtimers tend to tell "i have been doing this and that for xyz years
it cant be wrong and i know better for shure" - Old habits are 
difficult to get rid of.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
  We need to self-defend - GnuPG/PGP enable your email today!


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Marc Zoutendijk]

> Op 14 nov. 2015, om 18:04 heeft Michał Brzozowski  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> 
> Recently I found out that simple "please fix" or "please respond" (if
> edits need clarification) boosts chances for a reply or fixing by the
> user. How about we make some tips/guidelines for communications with
> newcomers on the Wiki? People could share practices they find most
> effective.

A few months ago the Dutch community started sending out a welcome message to 
every new mapper with some general info and pointers to useful websites and 
wikis.
This helps a lot in making the new mappers feel more at home and make them more 
aware of the community.
Maybe and idea?
Here is the link that will show you all new mappers in your country (replace 
Countryname with your country of interest)

http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/newestosmcountryfeed.php?c=Countryname

Marc.


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Michał Brzozowski]

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 7:44 PM, tony wroblewski
 wrote:
> From experience, I know that such responses are intimidating and put
> people off mapping. My girlfriend started mapping some areas when I
> showed her how to do it and immediately somebody sent her an email
> saying how she should be doing things because he doesn't map it that
> way

I do agree there may be no single correct way of mapping some things.
I am pretty liberal usually and I think mistakes that I mentioned are
quite objective. I don't nag people over things that can be done
correctly in many ways.

> and in the end she said she didn't like it and felt intimidated and decided 
> not to carry on.

I don't know, majority of us are grown-ups - who would know better
that an individual may be not representative of a group, and that one
should not take offence easily. It may be that due to our flat
structure one can't tell who is important and who is not.

> I think people need a playpen where they can try out ideas and map
> before contributing to the main map (Maybe there already is, I don't
> know). I think it should also be a requirement that people add a
> comment upon every commit to avoid such arguments. I'm getting a
> little tired of seeing constant updates in my area from people who
> don't add comments on why or what they've changed.

I do agree this is needed, as in Wikipedia. But how would people get
the feedback on what they mapped? We would also need something on the
data consumption side. That could be tricky. For instance, routing
needs time to import data. Also, we teach people not to tag for the
renderer, which is an issue as iD supports much more POI than are
rendered by osm-carto. I can imagine that WYSIWYG-ing what is
currently could backfire.

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 7:59 PM, Marc Zoutendijk  wrote:

> Here is the link that will show you all new mappers in your country (replace 
> Countryname with your country of interest)
>
> http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/newestosmcountryfeed.php?c=Countryname

Thanks. I use openstreetmap.pl/users - usually (if it isn't out of
sync), it can be faster - resultmaps update only hourly. It is also
connected to the #osm-pl IRC channel.

Michał

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Bryce Cogswell]

> On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:11 AM, Michał Brzozowski  wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 7:44 PM, tony wroblewski  
> wrote:
> 
>> I think people need a playpen where they can try out ideas and map
>> before contributing to the main map (Maybe there already is, I don't
>> know). I think it should also be a requirement that people add a
>> comment upon every commit to avoid such arguments. I'm getting a
>> little tired of seeing constant updates in my area from people who
>> don't add comments on why or what they've changed.
> 
> I do agree this is needed, as in Wikipedia. But how would people get
> the feedback on what they mapped? 

We could require the first few changesets a newbie submits to require review 
before going into the database. Make it obvious that they are in a trial period 
so they don’t need to worry about breaking things. We’d need a special queue 
for these to go into, and a roulette for experienced mappers to yes/no/feedback 
them. 

This would also be helpful for when all those new spam accounts starting 
changing phone numbers to 900 (pay per call) numbers and URLs to malware/scam 
sites.


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[GerdP]

Michał Brzozowski wrote
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Gerd Petermann
> 

> GPetermann_muenchen@

>  wrote:
>> I think that's quite okay presuming that many users don't speak english
> I forgot to mention. My operations with respect to newcomers are
> almost solely in Poland. So I write in Polish.
> 
>> and another group simply doesn't like to be watched / corrected
> I thought this is what community is about? Reviewing others' work? ;-)
> The things I write about are rather obvious mistakes, like: no main
> POI tag (amenity, shop, ...), free text in opening_hours, geometry
> errors and so on.
> 
> Recently I found out that simple "please fix" or "please respond" (if
> edits need clarification) boosts chances for a reply or fixing by the
> user. How about we make some tips/guidelines for communications with
> newcomers on the Wiki? People could share practices they find most
> effective.

Well, during my worktime I learned that a phrase like this works very well:
"please help me to understand why you do it like this ..." or
"please explain what the tag xyz means"
If you think that you have a better idea, add something like
"maybe you meant  ?"  
You don't risk to sound like Big Brother or a smartass, the odds are good
that 
you get a response.

Sometimes I just change obvious errors and ask for a review of
my changeset. No answer means OK for me, for any answer I say
thank you and maybe more where useful.

I also learned that in some countries it is not common
to say "okay, I've done something wrong, what can we do to make it better?",
instead the first thought seems to be "what can I do to keep my face?".

Gerd



--
View this message in context: 
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Why-newbies-comment-message-response-rate-is-so-low-tp5860078p5860092.html
Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Michał Brzozowski]

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Gerd Petermann
 wrote:
> I think that's quite okay presuming that many users don't speak english
I forgot to mention. My operations with respect to newcomers are
almost solely in Poland. So I write in Polish.

> and another group simply doesn't like to be watched / corrected
I thought this is what community is about? Reviewing others' work? ;-)
The things I write about are rather obvious mistakes, like: no main
POI tag (amenity, shop, ...), free text in opening_hours, geometry
errors and so on.

Recently I found out that simple "please fix" or "please respond" (if
edits need clarification) boosts chances for a reply or fixing by the
user. How about we make some tips/guidelines for communications with
newcomers on the Wiki? People could share practices they find most
effective.

Michał

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[tony wroblewski]

From experience, I know that such responses are intimidating and put
people off mapping. My girlfriend started mapping some areas when I
showed her how to do it and immediately somebody sent her an email
saying how she should be doing things because he doesn't map it that
way (Neither way was official or written down anyway), and in the end
she said she didn't like it and felt intimidated and decided not to
carry on.

I think people need a playpen where they can try out ideas and map
before contributing to the main map (Maybe there already is, I don't
know). I think it should also be a requirement that people add a
comment upon every commit to avoid such arguments. I'm getting a
little tired of seeing constant updates in my area from people who
don't add comments on why or what they've changed.

Tony


On 14 November 2015 at 18:04, Michał Brzozowski  wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Gerd Petermann
>  wrote:
>> I think that's quite okay presuming that many users don't speak english
> I forgot to mention. My operations with respect to newcomers are
> almost solely in Poland. So I write in Polish.
>
>> and another group simply doesn't like to be watched / corrected
> I thought this is what community is about? Reviewing others' work? ;-)
> The things I write about are rather obvious mistakes, like: no main
> POI tag (amenity, shop, ...), free text in opening_hours, geometry
> errors and so on.
>
> Recently I found out that simple "please fix" or "please respond" (if
> edits need clarification) boosts chances for a reply or fixing by the
> user. How about we make some tips/guidelines for communications with
> newcomers on the Wiki? People could share practices they find most
> effective.
>
> Michał
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Marc Zoutendijk]

> Op 14 nov. 2015, om 20:49 heeft Clifford Snow  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> I like that concept. I try to invite new users are in the geographic area of 
> our meetup group. If I think they need a helpful hint I add it to the welcome 
> message. I'd really like to automate the process. Is there a way to automate 
> sending messages to all new users or do you have to send each on 
> individually? 
> 

Given the number of weekly new mappers (around 10-12) it’s easy to send them 
the message individually. I have prepared a basic text that’s being used. I 
always check what the first edits are, and based on that I sometimes add a more 
personal note to help them out if it looks they got stuck or if they really 
messed things up.

I’ll start doing some statiscal research to see what number of mappers are 
really returning mappers. But this makes only sense after a few more months. I 
also noted that some of those mappers have registered themselves months (even 
years) ago before they start mapping.

Marc.


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Michał Brzozowski]

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 8:49 PM, Clifford Snow  wrote:
> I like that concept. I try to invite new users are in the geographic area of
> our meetup group. If I think they need a helpful hint I add it to the
> welcome message. I'd really like to automate the process. Is there a way to
> automate sending messages to all new users or do you have to send each on
> individually?

There is no *official* API for messages (apparently, for a reason).
A few years ago, Andrzej Zaborowski (balrog-kun / sir-mapalot) did
send such welcome messages to Polish newcomers - to every fourth
mapper, based on (uid mod 4). It was a form of an A/B test, though for
results you would have to contact him. If I recall correctly, he told
it was statistically insignificant with respect to users' later
engagement.

I did receive such greeting messsage back in 2012 and probably it
helped me to engage with the community (I jumped straight into IRC to
ask some questions). Different countries have different main forms of
contact (forum, mailing list, IRC, FB, VK and so on)

Michał

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Marc Zoutendijk]

> Op 14 nov. 2015, om 20:11 heeft Michał Brzozowski  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> Thanks. I use openstreetmap.pl/users - usually (if it isn't out of
> sync), it can be faster - resultmaps update only hourly. It is also
> connected to the #osm-pl IRC channel.

That kind of detail is not relevant. We send out the welcome message about once 
every 4-5 days.
And we send only messages to mappers that realy did edit. Sometimes mappers 
register only to do their first edit years later….

Marc.


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Clifford Snow]

On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Marc Zoutendijk 
wrote:

> A few months ago the Dutch community started sending out a welcome message
> to every new mapper with some general info and pointers to useful websites
> and wikis.
> This helps a lot in making the new mappers feel more at home and make them
> more aware of the community.
> Maybe and idea?
> Here is the link that will show you all new mappers in your country
> (replace Countryname with your country of interest)
>
> http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/newestosmcountryfeed.php?c=Countryname
>

I like that concept. I try to invite new users are in the geographic area
of our meetup group. If I think they need a helpful hint I add it to the
welcome message. I'd really like to automate the process. Is there a way to
automate sending messages to all new users or do you have to send each on
individually?

Clifford


-- 
@osm_seattle
osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?

[Simon Poole]

Am 14.11.2015 um 18:04 schrieb Michał Brzozowski:
... lots of stuff ...

This is not a new complaint/moan. The major issue is the people that
have made OSM one of/their major hobby (aka us) fretting about the fact
that lots of other people just joined to fix something or test. They
typically didn't want to sign up for Facebook 2.0 and most of the time
clearly didn't want to engage in long winded discussion about editing
corectness. Naturally there are some practical issues on top of that
(e-mail etc.), but they are unlikely to play a major role.

The good news is that the ratio of Newbies to Old Hands has not really
changed over the last couple of years (roughly 2/3 vs 1/3 annually, 10%
on a daily base) . We've proven that we are able to deal with the issues
in the past, so there is no reason to believe that, with the far better
tools and editors that we have now, there is any issue going forward. 

Simon







signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk