Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
2009/8/19 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de: andrzej zaborowski schrieb: 2009/8/18 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de: Namely they are http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424313867 and http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424317578 which are both islands now. By the way i added http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/25342325 (Alderney) which was somehow missing. *poke* (Montenegro is still missing) It seems there is no node for it. Searching if with the Namefinder doesn't bring up a node. I'd need a node id to add it to the list. It's 445970763 as mentioned in http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-August/040327.html Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
andrzej zaborowski schrieb: 2009/8/19 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de: andrzej zaborowski schrieb: 2009/8/18 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de: Namely they are http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424313867 and http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424317578 which are both islands now. By the way i added http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/25342325 (Alderney) which was somehow missing. *poke* (Montenegro is still missing) It seems there is no node for it. Searching if with the Namefinder doesn't bring up a node. I'd need a node id to add it to the list. It's 445970763 as mentioned in http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-August/040327.html Cheers I can confirm that: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/445970763. I'll add it this evening. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Lennard schrieb: Peter Körner wrote: It reaches 100% when /Tromelin Island /is set to not-ok. I got Bahasa Indonesia at 229/230 with 2 countries (Tromelin, Turkey) as not ok. This happened because some countries were degraded to states, so they don't show up in the list but are still counted as ok. I'll fix ths as soon as i got the time for it :) Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Hi As I guessed the bug with the 100% comes from countries that aren't countries anymore. They are removed from the list with the hourly update, but if you got your list open while this happens you can still mark it as ok. so we got a country that only exists in this language - and more than 100% ok :) I removed those countries and included a fix in the ajax-script that handles the mark-ok-request that checks for the existence of this country in the list. Namely they are http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424313867 and http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424317578 which are both islands now. By the way i added http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/25342325 (Alderney) which was somehow missing. The other bug is a hard one. As long as I'm not able to reproduce it, i can't fix it. I'm feeling sorry about having these bug in this tool. It was just an experiment, hacked together in three or four nights - so no clear structure in the programming nor the database. I know I can do better (I'm doing every day at work) but this was my first tool on a toolserver, my with first tool working with geo-data and my first tool using the osm-api, so please perceive it just as an hacky experiment - not fully worked-out tool, and thus be gently with me :) Just had to say that. Peter I think there was a bug introduced during resorting of the list or during the transition from zh-classic - zh-classical. The list behaves strange. Once I noticed that when i changed a country name in one language, the status of the same country name in another language changed also. I cannot verify or nail down any bug from remote. Please see also the image attached which shows a 100.43% progress for translation of the Arabic country names. http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/?lang=ar It reaches 100% when /Tromelin Island /is set to not-ok. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
2009/8/18 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de: Namely they are http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424313867 and http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424317578 which are both islands now. By the way i added http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/25342325 (Alderney) which was somehow missing. *poke* (Montenegro is still missing) Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
andrzej zaborowski schrieb: 2009/8/18 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de: Namely they are http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424313867 and http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/424317578 which are both islands now. By the way i added http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/25342325 (Alderney) which was somehow missing. *poke* (Montenegro is still missing) It seems there is no node for it. Searching if with the Namefinder doesn't bring up a node. I'd need a node id to add it to the list. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Hi I think there was a bug introduced during resorting of the list or during the transition from zh-classic - zh-classical. The list behaves strange. Once I noticed that when i changed a country name in one language, the status of the same country name in another language changed also. I cannot verify or nail down any bug from remote. Please see also the image attached which shows a 100.43% progress for translation of the Arabic country names. http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/?lang=ar It reaches 100% when *Tromelin Island *is set to not-ok. Gruess, Micha attachment: fehler language tool.png___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Thank you for the bug-report, i'll check both bugs soon. Peter I think there was a bug introduced during resorting of the list or during the transition from zh-classic - zh-classical. The list behaves strange. Once I noticed that when i changed a country name in one language, the status of the same country name in another language changed also. I cannot verify or nail down any bug from remote. Please see also the image attached which shows a 100.43% progress for translation of the Arabic country names. http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/?lang=ar It reaches 100% when /Tromelin Island /is set to not-ok. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Peter Körner wrote: It reaches 100% when /Tromelin Island /is set to not-ok. I got Bahasa Indonesia at 229/230 with 2 countries (Tromelin, Turkey) as not ok. -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Still I think a case could be made for country names to be different: most of them are so prominent that I would say they exist in most languages, even if they are identical to the native names. For example, the German names for most European countries are different from their native names. However, Portugal happens to have the same name (well, spelling) in German and in Portugese. Would you therefore say, that Portugal doesn't have a German name? It has one, but that's not a translation - rust a repetition. And name:xx-tags are (in my opinion), basically translation-tags. Nevertheless I don't like different rules for similar things, so i don't want to have a different rule for countries as for cities. It's a rule in quotation marks, because no one forces you to remove those tags and if you want to add them for a language, i won't go and delete them. Well, the common rule for both cities and countries would then be: If it has a name in language xxx, then add a name:xxx tag (and don't care if it has the same value as name), else leave it. Although this basically follows from the on the ground rule, it would probably be very subjective to decide. Anyway, I don't have a strong opinion on this anymore. As you and Martin have pointed out, it will probably make no difference in practice, as name will be taken as a fallback. Regards, Marc -- Jetzt kostenlos herunterladen: Internet Explorer 8 und Mozilla Firefox 3 - sicherer, schneller und einfacher! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/atbrowser ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Peter Körner wrote: Hello OSM folks For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, that a lot of countries are not translated yet. To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries more easy, I created a tool that can be found at http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps better. Comments welcome! Some translations show up orange. What does that signify? And a typo: endlish - english Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Maarten Deen schrieb: Peter Körner wrote: Hello OSM folks For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, that a lot of countries are not translated yet. To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries more easy, I created a tool that can be found at http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps better. Comments welcome! Some translations show up orange. What does that signify? And a typo: endlish - english Regards, Maarten They tell you that the translation in the given language is identical to the value of the name=* tag. If you see the name-Tag as a fallback for a missing name:xx-tag (what you should), those pseudo-translations are needless. I'm currently in a discussion with Marc Schütz (search through the mails of the last days) if deleting them is a good or a bad thing. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Marc Schütz schrieb: Still I think a case could be made for country names to be different: most of them are so prominent that I would say they exist in most languages, even if they are identical to the native names. For example, the German names for most European countries are different from their native names. However, Portugal happens to have the same name (well, spelling) in German and in Portugese. Would you therefore say, that Portugal doesn't have a German name? It has one, but that's not a translation - rust a repetition. And name:xx-tags are (in my opinion), basically translation-tags. Nevertheless I don't like different rules for similar things, so i don't want to have a different rule for countries as for cities. It's a rule in quotation marks, because no one forces you to remove those tags and if you want to add them for a language, i won't go and delete them. Well, the common rule for both cities and countries would then be: If it has a name in language xxx, then add a name:xxx tag (and don't care if it has the same value as name), else leave it. Although this basically follows from the on the ground rule, it would probably be very subjective to decide. Anyway, I don't have a strong opinion on this anymore. As you and Martin have pointed out, it will probably make no difference in practice, as name will be taken as a fallback. Regards, Marc In my eyes the rule should be: If it has a name in language xxx *that differs from it's native name*, then add a name:xxx tag And that what i did it like for German. I don't feel myself in a position to publish this rule on the wiki nor on my tool, as long as there are no more voices for / against it. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Peter Körner wrote: Marc Schütz schrieb: [Should name:xx equal to name tags stay or not?] In my eyes the rule should be: If it has a name in language xxx *that differs from it's native name*, then add a name:xxx tag That seemed sensible to me also, but now that I think about it, there's a significant advantage gained by having the redundant name:xx tags. The fact that such a tag exists, gives you the confidence to say someone has thought about this, and this positively is the translation. Rather than either this is the same in language xx, or no one has bothered to translate. I imagine this difference is important in some cases. For example in the Wikipedia case, the presence of a name:xx tag means you can be reasonably certain this is the correct name. In some ways, it does feel wrong though, to have all those tags without any useful information, but consider that it does have the information that someone thought about it and added the tag. -- Jonas Häggqvist rasher(at)rasher(dot)dk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
I need some advice: I'm currently translating the names to Portuguese, and for some countries the portuguese name differ from the brazilian portuguese (which I speak) to the european portuguese. So, should I tag, official_/name:pt=one of the forms or official_/name:pt=brazilian portuguese name; european portuguese name? Or maybe official_/name:pt_PT and official_/name:pt_BR? Cheers, 2009/8/12 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de: Hello OSM folks For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, that a lot of countries are not translated yet. To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries more easy, I created a tool that can be found at http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps better. Comments welcome! Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Arlindo Saraiva Pereira Jr. Bacharelando em Sistemas de Informação - UNIRIO - uniriotec.br Consultor de Software Livre da Uniriotec Consultoria - uniriotec.com Acadêmico: arlindo.pere...@uniriotec.br Profissional: arlindo.pere...@uniriotec.com Geral: cont...@arlindopereira.com Tel.: +5521 92504072 Jabber/Google Talk: nig...@nighto.net Skype: nighto_sumomo Chave pública: BD065DEC ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
--- On Mon, 17/8/09, Jonas Häggqvist ras...@rasher.dk wrote: In some ways, it does feel wrong though, to have all those tags without any useful information, but consider that it does have the information that someone thought about it and added the tag. I don't see this any differently then if it's tagged wrongly, someone will see it at some point and fix it, and this might encourage some that make edits on wikipedia to make edits on OSM :) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Jonas Häggqvist schrieb: Peter Körner wrote: Marc Schütz schrieb: [Should name:xx equal to name tags stay or not?] In my eyes the rule should be: If it has a name in language xxx *that differs from it's native name*, then add a name:xxx tag That seemed sensible to me also, but now that I think about it, there's a significant advantage gained by having the redundant name:xx tags. The fact that such a tag exists, gives you the confidence to say someone has thought about this, and this positively is the translation. Rather than either this is the same in language xx, or no one has bothered to translate. I imagine this difference is important in some cases. For example in the Wikipedia case, the presence of a name:xx tag means you can be reasonably certain this is the correct name. In some ways, it does feel wrong though, to have all those tags without any useful information, but consider that it does have the information that someone thought about it and added the tag. That's the positive point of adding those tags and I'm completely with you in this point (i'll call it the validated translation-argument, but there is one argument I see against it (i'll name it the different-rules-argument): thinking the idea of adding name:xx-tags for validating the translations down to the city, suburb or street-level makes things look much different. Do we want different rules for countries, although the add if it differs rule could be applied to all of them? I think to validate translations, an external tool like [1] is much better than a tag in the database, because (once the db is updating) this tool can and will be expanded to cities, suburbs, POIs and other places with a name. Aren't the translation-tags in the wikipedia also mainly added by bots - which are external tools, too? Or do you think this is a poor comparison? Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Arlindo Pereira schrieb: I need some advice: I'm currently translating the names to Portuguese, and for some countries the portuguese name differ from the brazilian portuguese (which I speak) to the european portuguese. So, should I tag, official_/name:pt=one of the forms or official_/name:pt=brazilian portuguese name; european portuguese name? Or maybe official_/name:pt_PT and official_/name:pt_BR? Cheers, The list of languages presented is derived from the languages that their own wikipedia [1], because that's the most prominent place those localized maps will be visible. If you're unsure I'd suggest to use the name of the corresponding article in the wikipedia for the language-code on the list. Despite of that feel free to add another tag with the other name. Please take a look at [2] and check if there's a language-code for it. Please consider also asking at talk-pt [3], although there's not much traffic.. Peter [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:SiteMatrix [2] http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php [3] http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-pt ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
2009/8/16 Arlindo Pereira nig...@nighto.net: I need some advice: I'm currently translating the names to Portuguese, and for some countries the portuguese name differ from the brazilian portuguese (which I speak) to the european portuguese. So, should I tag, official_/name:pt=one of the forms or official_/name:pt=brazilian portuguese name; european portuguese name? Or maybe official_/name:pt_PT and official_/name:pt_BR? I think I remember someone using @ instead of _ in those OSM language codes for these kind of differences, I don't remember if that is approved or anything (possibly it was part of this same thread). But by all means add both forms (either both in name:pt or separate tags) so that they become searchable. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
2009/8/16 Jonas Häggqvist ras...@rasher.dk: That seemed sensible to me also, but now that I think about it, there's a significant advantage gained by having the redundant name:xx tags. The fact that such a tag exists, gives you the confidence to say someone has thought about this, and this positively is the translation. Rather than either this is the same in language xx, or no one has bothered to translate. I imagine this difference is important in some cases. For example in the Wikipedia case, the presence of a name:xx tag means you can be reasonably certain this is the correct name. The green background (marked OK) on Peter's page is also a good indicator. FWIW my personal preference is for leaving the identical values out. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
But this implicates that if there is no different name, no name:xx-tag should be set (even if it's not *bad* to have one, its also not *necessary*). Do you agree with that, Marc? I was replying in a hurry, and I see now that it is not as easy as I thought it to be. I agree that most objects don't have names in all languages. It would be absurd to add a, say, Inuktitut name to a small street in Budapest, thereby repeating its hungarian name in potentially several thousand languages. Still I think a case could be made for country names to be different: most of them are so prominent that I would say they exist in most languages, even if they are identical to the native names. For example, the German names for most European countries are different from their native names. However, Portugal happens to have the same name (well, spelling) in German and in Portugese. Would you therefore say, that Portugal doesn't have a German name? Regards, Marc -- Neu: GMX Doppel-FLAT mit Internet-Flatrate + Telefon-Flatrate für nur 19,99 Euro/mtl.!* http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl02 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Am 15. August 2009 11:50 schrieb Marc Schütz schue...@gmx.net: For example, the German names for most European countries are different from their native names. However, Portugal happens to have the same name (well, spelling) in German and in Portugese. Would you therefore say, that Portugal doesn't have a German name? I'd say that it is not necessary to put a German name, as the spelling is equal to the native one. E.g. in Italian it would be necessary (Portogallo). Why do you want to put duplicates of names if the normal fallback to name will work? It doesn't make sense to me. Not even for countries. When talking about official names though, it would be necessary in nearly all cases: (here: República Portuguesa / Portugiesische Republik) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Marc Schütz schrieb: But this implicates that if there is no different name, no name:xx-tag should be set (even if it's not *bad* to have one, its also not *necessary*). Do you agree with that, Marc? I was replying in a hurry, and I see now that it is not as easy as I thought it to be. I agree that most objects don't have names in all languages. It would be absurd to add a, say, Inuktitut name to a small street in Budapest, thereby repeating its hungarian name in potentially several thousand languages. Still I think a case could be made for country names to be different: most of them are so prominent that I would say they exist in most languages, even if they are identical to the native names. For example, the German names for most European countries are different from their native names. However, Portugal happens to have the same name (well, spelling) in German and in Portugese. Would you therefore say, that Portugal doesn't have a German name? It has one, but that's not a translation - rust a repetition. And name:xx-tags are (in my opinion), basically translation-tags. Nevertheless I don't like different rules for similar things, so i don't want to have a different rule for countries as for cities. It's a rule in quotation marks, because no one forces you to remove those tags and if you want to add them for a language, i won't go and delete them. It's my opinion that they are needless, and if you don't think so i wont enforce my opinion on you - just go ahead and add them again :) All I want to say is that I don't see any benefit from having those tags. What you'll do with that, that's your thing :) Have a nice weekend! Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Erik Lundin schrieb: I think there's a good point of having the redundancy of name:xx tags even when it is the same as the name tag, because that makes the translated names more safe. For the Swedish translations I saw several names that were marked as OK even though they weren't translated. It's too easy to read through the names and mark them as OK without thinking too much. /Erik Peter Körner skrev: No, just mark it as ok. If there's an existing one with an identical name you may also delete the needless translation. I'll add some highlight to those needless translations, soon. If the base name is changed, all rows relying on this translation are marked as not-ok. So if the basename changes in all languages someone will have to click mark ok again. I know that it is easy (and it is so by intention!). I believe in the iteligence of the crowd. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Micha Ruh schrieb: Hallo Peter! Ich habe ein paar Übersetzungen mit Hilfe deines sehr gelungenen Tools und Wikipedia erstellt. Dabei ist mir bei der Sprache der traditionellen chinesischen Schriftzeichen eine Inkonsistenz zwischen Deinem Tool und Wikipedia aufgefallen: Es werden verschiedene Countrycodes verwendet: zh-classical vs. zh-classic http://zh-classical.wikipedia.org/ http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/?lang=zh-classic Ich wollte nur Nachfragen ob das so korrekt ist. For the english ones: he's reporting that my tool took zh-classic as lang-code, while the wikipedia uses zh-classical. The problem is the length of my languagecode-column in mysql -- it's only 10 chars long. I changed this to 20 chars and also changed all occurencies of zh-classic to zh-classical. I hope that does not bereak too much of the tagging.. in deutsch: Die Spalte der MySQL-Tabelle, welche den Sprachcode aufnimmt, war nur mit 10 Zeichen dimensionert. Daher wurde der Rest abgeschnitten. Ich habe das Limit jetzt auf 20 erhöht und alle Stellen, an denen zh-classic stand auf zh-classical geändert. Ich hoffe, dass das nicht zu viel kaputt macht.. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Marc Schütz schrieb: What is the opinion for translations that are the same in other languages? For instance: Andorra is Andorra in a lot of languages. Do you add a translation even though the translation is the same as the original name? Maarten No, just mark it as ok. If there's an existing one with an identical name you may also delete the needless translation. I'll add some highlight to those needless translations, soon. No, please don't! If you remove them (and I see that you already did that for some countries), there is no way of telling whether the translation is the same as the default name, or is simply missing. But there is no translation of Deutschland to German. So I don't see how it could be missing :) My Tool offers the OK-State do make a difference between not yet checked and checked, that is independent of the existance of a translation. I understand your concerns when looking at the country-level, but what should we do on the city-level? add the name of all cities in all languages as a translation? Or: what should we do with the languages that are not covered by wikimedia? In my eyes name is the tag for the name of this country in it's native language (just as it is with cities). name:xx is a language *overlay* for a specific language and for a localized map - nothing more. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Am 14. August 2009 13:34 schrieb Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de: I understand your concerns when looking at the country-level, but what should we do on the city-level? add the name of all cities in all languages as a translation? Or: what should we do with the languages that are not covered by wikimedia? yes, as long as there is a translation of a city-name (or other feature, think about colosseo, Kolosseum, etc.) different to the name in the local language, we should add the tags in these languages. There is probably also different alt_names for the same feature in different languages (e.g. flavisches Amphitheater) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Martin Koppenhoefer schrieb: Am 14. August 2009 13:34 schrieb Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de: I understand your concerns when looking at the country-level, but what should we do on the city-level? add the name of all cities in all languages as a translation? Or: what should we do with the languages that are not covered by wikimedia? yes, as long as there is a translation of a city-name (or other feature, think about colosseo, Kolosseum, etc.) different to the name in the local language, we should add the tags in these languages. There is probably also different alt_names for the same feature in different languages (e.g. flavisches Amphitheater) But this implicates that if there is no different name, no name:xx-tag should be set (even if it's not *bad* to have one, its also not *necessary*). Do you agree with that, Marc? This is my opinion and i'm always willing to change it, if there are good arguments to do so. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
2009/8/14 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de: Martin Koppenhoefer schrieb: Am 14. August 2009 13:34 schrieb Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de: I understand your concerns when looking at the country-level, but what should we do on the city-level? add the name of all cities in all languages as a translation? Or: what should we do with the languages that are not covered by wikimedia? yes, as long as there is a translation of a city-name (or other feature, think about colosseo, Kolosseum, etc.) different to the name in the local language, we should add the tags in these languages. There is probably also different alt_names for the same feature in different languages (e.g. flavisches Amphitheater) But this implicates that if there is no different name, no name:xx-tag should be set (even if it's not *bad* to have one, its also not *necessary*). Do you agree with that, Marc? don't know about Marc, but I agree: if there is no different name/spelling, don't put it. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Maarten Deen schrieb: Peter Körner wrote: Hello OSM folks For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, that a lot of countries are not translated yet. To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries more easy, I created a tool that can be found at http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps better. Comments welcome! Potlatch is written as Potlatch, not as Postlatch. And maybe it's easier if the list country is sorted alphabeticaly as well. And a tip for people wanting to translate: enter the English name in en.wikipedia.org and just click on the appropriate link in the other language of choice. Regards, Maarten Potlatch, yes.. I changed it. The language list (that's what i think you're talking about) is already sorted by the code of the language. I changed this to sorting by name but it still got problems with lowercase-names, but i think it's ok for the moment. That's why the wiki (en) button is there. I'll check if i could make an automatic process aut of this (go to en-wiki change language in on click). Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Peter Körner wrote: Hello OSM folks For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, that a lot of countries are not translated yet. If you need help translating country names for your language and Wikipedia doesn't have the information, Debian maintains a set of translations for the countries in ISO 3166[1] which might be useful. The source [2] can be downloaded. Unpack it (using either standard UNIX tools, or something like 7-zip[3] if you're on Windows) and look inside the iso3166 directory and open the file xx.po in a text editor, where xx is the two-letter language code for your language. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166 [2] http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/pool/main/i/iso-codes/iso-codes_3.10.2.orig.tar.gz [3] http://www.7-zip.org/ -- Jonas Häggqvist rasher(at)rasher(dot)dk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Also unicode CLDR is good source. http://cldr.unicode.org/ Lauris 2009/8/13 Jonas Häggqvist ras...@rasher.dk: Peter Körner wrote: Hello OSM folks For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, that a lot of countries are not translated yet. If you need help translating country names for your language and Wikipedia doesn't have the information, Debian maintains a set of translations for the countries in ISO 3166[1] which might be useful. The source [2] can be downloaded. Unpack it (using either standard UNIX tools, or something like 7-zip[3] if you're on Windows) and look inside the iso3166 directory and open the file xx.po in a text editor, where xx is the two-letter language code for your language. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166 [2] http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/pool/main/i/iso-codes/iso-codes_3.10.2.orig.tar.gz [3] http://www.7-zip.org/ -- Jonas Häggqvist rasher(at)rasher(dot)dk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
To be more explicit see this link: http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/main/ Lauris 2009/8/13 Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns lafr...@gmail.com: Also unicode CLDR is good source. http://cldr.unicode.org/ Lauris 2009/8/13 Jonas Häggqvist ras...@rasher.dk: Peter Körner wrote: Hello OSM folks For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, that a lot of countries are not translated yet. If you need help translating country names for your language and Wikipedia doesn't have the information, Debian maintains a set of translations for the countries in ISO 3166[1] which might be useful. The source [2] can be downloaded. Unpack it (using either standard UNIX tools, or something like 7-zip[3] if you're on Windows) and look inside the iso3166 directory and open the file xx.po in a text editor, where xx is the two-letter language code for your language. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166 [2] http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/pool/main/i/iso-codes/iso-codes_3.10.2.orig.tar.gz [3] http://www.7-zip.org/ -- Jonas Häggqvist rasher(at)rasher(dot)dk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Jonas Häggqvist schrieb: Peter Körner wrote: Hello OSM folks For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, that a lot of countries are not translated yet. If you need help translating country names for your language and Wikipedia doesn't have the information, Debian maintains a set of translations for the countries in ISO 3166[1] which might be useful. The source [2] can be downloaded. Unpack it (using either standard UNIX tools, or something like 7-zip[3] if you're on Windows) and look inside the iso3166 directory and open the file xx.po in a text editor, where xx is the two-letter language code for your language. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166 [2] http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian/pool/main/i/iso-codes/iso-codes_3.10.2.orig.tar.gz [3] http://www.7-zip.org/ Hum, is this data good enough for an import? Although it's always better to let people check the information. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
On 13/08/09 16:50, Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns wrote: Also unicode CLDR is good source. http://cldr.unicode.org/ My reading of the terms of use says we probably can't use it as it requires that the copyright notice remains attached to any copies of the data. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
To me it seems standard MIT license. Maybe someone could contact them about country name data import into OSM and ask special permision? Lauris 2009/8/13 Tom Hughes t...@compton.nu: On 13/08/09 16:50, Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns wrote: Also unicode CLDR is good source. http://cldr.unicode.org/ My reading of the terms of use says we probably can't use it as it requires that the copyright notice remains attached to any copies of the data. Tom -- Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu) http://www.compton.nu/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
2009/8/13 Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns lafr...@gmail.com: To me it seems standard MIT license. Maybe someone could contact them about country name data import into OSM and ask special permision? There are probably more complete sources like the wikipedia page titles which the toolserver page even recommends be consulted. Note that country names are just a tiny piece of what you could call multilingual map, plenty of other features have different names in different languages and wikipedia has a lot of these already. Especially the pages containing infoboxes are easy to parse and have structured information. (Not saying they should be used but if you're going to make an import, you'd be writing lots of scripts for little data) Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
andrzej zaborowski schrieb: 2009/8/13 Lauris Bukšis-Haberkorns lafr...@gmail.com: To me it seems standard MIT license. Maybe someone could contact them about country name data import into OSM and ask special permision? There are probably more complete sources like the wikipedia page titles which the toolserver page even recommends be consulted. Note that country names are just a tiny piece of what you could call multilingual map, plenty of other features have different names in different languages Missing translated country names were the first thing I saw when I looked at the translated map-renderings, so this was my starting-point to see how translating map-data could be done. If you got some ideas on what will need translation and how it could be accessed, i'll welcome your input and i'll try to build another tool from it where not only countries may be translated. and wikipedia has a lot of these already. Especially the pages containing infoboxes are easy to parse and have structured information. (Not saying they should be used but if you're going to make an import, you'd be writing lots of scripts for little data) I'm really unse if bulk-imports would be such a good idea. For me the peer-review process as i tried to implement it is a much better approach. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Peter Körner wrote: Hello OSM folks For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, that a lot of countries are not translated yet. To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries more easy, I created a tool that can be found at http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps better. Comments welcome! What is the opinion for translations that are the same in other languages? For instance: Andorra is Andorra in a lot of languages. Do you add a translation even though the translation is the same as the original name? Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Maarten Deen schrieb: Peter Körner wrote: Hello OSM folks For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, that a lot of countries are not translated yet. To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries more easy, I created a tool that can be found at http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps better. Comments welcome! What is the opinion for translations that are the same in other languages? For instance: Andorra is Andorra in a lot of languages. Do you add a translation even though the translation is the same as the original name? Maarten No, just mark it as ok. If there's an existing one with an identical name you may also delete the needless translation. I'll add some highlight to those needless translations, soon. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Peter Körner schrieb: Hello OSM folks For the integration of osm into the wikipedia there will be localized maps in all languages that have their own wikipedia. The problem is, that a lot of countries are not translated yet. To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries more easy, I created a tool that can be found at http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps better. Comments welcome! Peter Update: I added CSV GPX export and highlights for identical translations (when the name:xx-Tag is identical to the name-Tag). Also I added delete-support to the update-routine so that it should delete translations that are no longer in the osm-database. It should also delete nodes that are no longer flagged as place=country. I didn't have the time for intensive testing, so if you encounter any unexpected behavior, please just report this here. Each hour, right before the update, i create an sql-dump, so restoring the ok-states should be not too much trouble. Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
I think there's a good point of having the redundancy of name:xx tags even when it is the same as the name tag, because that makes the translated names more safe. For the Swedish translations I saw several names that were marked as OK even though they weren't translated. It's too easy to read through the names and mark them as OK without thinking too much. /Erik Peter Körner skrev: No, just mark it as ok. If there's an existing one with an identical name you may also delete the needless translation. I'll add some highlight to those needless translations, soon. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
2009/8/14 Erik Lundin erik.lun...@aol.se: I think there's a good point of having the redundancy of name:xx tags even when it is the same as the name tag, because that makes the translated names more safe. For the Swedish translations I saw several names that were marked as OK even though they weren't translated. It's too easy to read through the names and mark them as OK without thinking too much. On the other hand, some objects sometimes change names, if your street has a name=, name:en=, name:es= and 30 other tags all set to the same value, it'll be really annoying to correct all of them if it's found to be incorrect. (Fortunately street maps deal with quickly changing information much less often than e.g. encyclopaedia) BTW, Peter: Montenegro (Crna Gora) is still missing from the interface, possibly more countries are. Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
Peter Körner wrote: To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries more easy, I created a tool that can be found at http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ Useful. Will the page invalidate translations if the base name is changed? -- Jonas Häggqvist rasher(at)rasher(dot)dk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Announcemen: Multilingual Country-List
2009/8/13 Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de: To get an overview over the status and make translating those countries more easy, I created a tool that can be found at http://cassini.toolserver.org/~mazder/multilingual-country-list/ I'd like to encourage everyone to spend some time making translated maps better. Comments welcome! Montenegro is still missing from the list of countries, its node id is 445970763 and I only added it about two weeks ago because I noticed it was missing when adding some tags to all the countries. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/445970763 The instructions at the top of the pages could also mention the official_name:* tags - I don't know if these are approved in any way but I found they were on some of the nodes and I thought it was a good idea to propagate these too where the full name differs from the normal name the country is known by (which could otherwise be placed in loc_name, but it should probably be the one displayed by default) Cheers ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
