Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Florimond Berthoux]

I said what I had on my heart, you can now make fun of me, or be respectful.

I agree, I already felt unpleasant manners around here.

Le lun. 21 déc. 2020 à 00:51, Martin Koppenhoefer 
a écrit :

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 21. Dec 2020, at 00:05, Clay Smalley  wrote:
>
> Va téléphone à la police.
>
>
>
> France is the spearhead against discrimination and gender disparity, in
> case you missed it, the Paris administration just recently got fined for
> putting a disproportionately high number of women in management positions:
>
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/16/world/europe/paris-too-many-women-fine.html
>
> Cheers Martin
>


-- 
Florimond Berthoux
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Christian Rogel]

> Le 21 déc. 2020 à 00:54, Martin Koppenhoefer  a écrit 
> :
> France is the spearhead against discrimination and gender disparity, in case 
> you missed it, the Paris administration just recently got fined for putting a 
> disproportionately high number of women in management positions:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/16/world/europe/paris-too-many-women-fine.html

Hi, Martin,

But, the law was modified in 2019 and there is no limitation anymore.
Fortunately, none will be removed.

Christian Rogel___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21. Dec 2020, at 00:05, Clay Smalley  wrote:
> 
> Va téléphone à la police.


France is the spearhead against discrimination and gender disparity, in case 
you missed it, the Paris administration just recently got fined for putting a 
disproportionately high number of women in management positions:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/16/world/europe/paris-too-many-women-fine.html

Cheers Martin 
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Clay Smalley]

On Sun, Dec 20, 2020 at 5:52 PM Florimond Berthoux <
florimond.berth...@gmail.com> wrote:

> La loi française contre les propos haineux s'applique à tous en France.
>

Va téléphone à la police.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Florimond Berthoux]

Bonjour,

J'ai cité le passage problématique.
J'ai trop souffert de phobie sociale dans ma vie pour accepter ce genre de
propos.

La loi française contre les propos haineux s'applique à tous en France.

Bien à vous.

Le ven. 18 déc. 2020 à 12:15, Martin Constantino–Bodin <
martin.bo...@ens-lyon.org> a écrit :

>
> Hello,
>>>
>>> I can read at the date of this mail (how can you sign a moving text ??) :
>>> «Power dynamics in OSM are controlled by a dominant contributor
>>> profile: white, Western and male. This power dynamic has led to a
>>> communication style which includes misogynistic, hostile, targeting,
>>> doxing, unfriendly, competitive, intimidating, patronising messaging, which
>>> is offensive to us and forces many of us to remain as observers and without
>>> the confidence to participate actively.»
>>>
>>> I'm bored of reading hate speech against groups of people defined by
>>> their color skin, origin or gender.
>>>
>> Er… Please read this article:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_racism
>
> This call is not a hate speech against white-people. It’s a call to
> recognise the issue and respond to it.
>
> Regards,
> Martin Constantino–Bodin.
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>


-- 
Florimond Berthoux
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Martin Constantino–Bodin]

Hello,

I can read at the date of this mail (how can you sign a moving
text ??) :
«Power dynamics in OSM are controlled by a dominant
contributor profile: white, Western and male. This power
dynamic has led to a communication style which includes
misogynistic, hostile, targeting, doxing, unfriendly,
competitive, intimidating, patronising messaging, which is
offensive to us and forces many of us to remain as observers
and without the confidence to participate actively.»

I'm bored of reading hate speech against groups of people
defined by their color skin, origin or gender.


Er… Please read this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_racism

This call is not a hate speech against white-people. It’s a call to 
recognise the issue and respond to it.


Regards,
Martin Constantino–Bodin.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Florimond Berthoux]

Hi, so my email has been blocked by a spam filter, I have to try to sent it
again :

Le mar. 15 déc. 2020 à 23:16, Florimond Berthoux <
florimond.berth...@gmail.com> a écrit :

> Hi, my email has been blocked by a spam filter, I have to resent it.
>
> I'd like to had to my email below :
>
> Je trouve incroyable qu'un papier qui a pour but l'inclusion soit en
> réalité haineux envers un groupe de personnes simplement défini par une
> couleur de peau, un genre ou une origine.
> Ce papier est l'exemple même de ce qu'il dénonce.
>
> Je n'ai jamais lu de propos aussi haineux sur cette liste !
> Quel est donc ce besoin malsain de regarder la couleur de peau de l'autre ?
> Je vous le dit tel que je le pense, ce sont des phrases racistes et
> misandres.
>
> I'll not put my name next to these sentences, and I recommend you to not
> sign it.
>
> Le sam. 12 déc. 2020 à 14:15, Florimond Berthoux <
> florimond.berth...@gmail.com> a écrit :
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I can read at the date of this mail (how can you sign a moving text ??) :
>> «Power dynamics in OSM are controlled by a dominant contributor profile:
>> white, Western and male. This power dynamic has led to a communication
>> style which includes misogynistic, hostile, targeting, doxing, unfriendly,
>> competitive, intimidating, patronising messaging, which is offensive to us
>> and forces many of us to remain as observers and without the confidence to
>> participate actively.»
>>
>> I'm bored of reading hate speech against groups of people defined by
>> their color skin, origin or gender.
>>
>>
>> Le mer. 9 déc. 2020 à 20:13, Celine Jacquin  a écrit :
>>
>>> Hello everybody
>>> I hope you are all well
>>>
>>> We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have
>>> reacted to the conversation in the osm-talk-list (
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html)
>>> considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have faced
>>> for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest obstacles to
>>> diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
>>> That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the desirable
>>> mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and improve
>>> diversity.
>>>
>>> We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented to
>>> sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
>>>
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing
>>>
>>>
>>> On behalf of the signatories
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> Céline Jacquin
>>> ___
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Florimond Berthoux
>>
>
>
> --
> Florimond Berthoux
>


-- 
Florimond Berthoux
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Maarten Deen]

On 2020-12-10 19:49, Yves via talk wrote:

Niels, Arnalielsewhere post wasn't about mapping, the map is used to
illustrate something.
I agree with others comments pledging for more time to be taken to
read someone else's lines.


Then I struggle to see the relevance. The whole blogpost seems to be a 
call against (apparent) male preference to take the short (and 
dangerous) route, with extension that the male will only take the longer 
less dangerous route to please the female.


I'm not sure how to apply that to OSM governance.
If it is about the points: 1: agree, 2: ok, noted. Which is one of my 
fears when even looking at women, that they see me as someone who wants 
to attack them, just because I look at them (i.e. see them, not "check 
them out"). 3: yes.


So, which path do we choose to take? I can not answer that. I have taken 
my own path in OSM and mapping and I think I added value to OSM using 
that path. I also like to think I have never exhibited offensive 
behaviour to women or others in OSM but that is a statment only others 
can affirm.


So I really struggle to see the relevance. At least in my case. And I 
struggle to see the underlying institutionalized method that seems te be 
felt.
I also have to agree with user_5589's last comment to the blogpost. To 
have certain seats allocated to certain groups of people will give 
others more reason to say "you are only here because we have to have you 
here, not because you have a valuable input on the matter". And that is 
something we very much need to avoid.
It will also weaken OSM if you don't have the best person for the job. 
And that person may be black, white, male, female, straight, gay, 
catholic, muslim, facebook employee or independent, or whatever the 
person identifies as.


Regards,
Maarten

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Emily Eros]

I wholeheartedly support an enforceable Code of Conduct for the mailing
lists and other global OSM spaces. I'm not going to write 3,000 words on
this. Others have already made these points. But for the sake of adding one
more female voice to this thread, plain and simple:

- Violent language is not okay
- You can make your point without it
- I'm not interested in whether men think rape metaphors are acceptable or
not. It seems insane that women should have to engage in a debate about
this.
- Language used in these mailing lists is the reason that I do not
participate in these forums and spaces if I can possibly avoid it. It is
the reason why I participate in a local chapter but have have let my OSMF
membership lapse. There are many others who feel this way; I'm sure that
will be reflected in the signatories of the document prepared by Geochicas.
OSM is losing out on our participation.
- We can do better!!! Our community can be stronger and more vibrant if
people feel they can participate and put their hand up for things without
fear of being harassed rather than just disagreed with.

A Code of Conduct is long overdue. While I might nitpick some wording or
phrasing in the statement, I really can't agree more with this point and
would be happy to contribute to this effort.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Emily


On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 2:06 PM Andrew Hain 
wrote:

> The big problem I have with this manifesto is that it brings divisive
> North American attitudes to a worldwide project. As a worldwide project,
> building a community of mappers from the whole world is our most important
> single diversity objective. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t encourage other
> underrepresented groups such as women, but we should step away from this
> kind of international combativeness and dog whistling. It may even be
> counterproductive: some feminists in my country think “diversity” has
> become a code word for misogyny.
>
>
> --
>
> Andrew
>
> --
> *From:* Celine Jacquin 
> *Sent:* 09 December 2020 19:06
> *To:* osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org ;
> talk@openstreetmap.org 
> *Subject:* [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive
> Behavior in the OSM Community
>
> Hello everybody
> I hope you are all well
>
> We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have reacted
> to the conversation in the osm-talk-list (
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html)
> considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have faced
> for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest obstacles to
> diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
> That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the desirable
> mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and improve
> diversity.
>
> We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented to
> sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing
>
>
> On behalf of the signatories
> Best regards
>
> Céline Jacquin
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Andrew Hain]

The big problem I have with this manifesto is that it brings divisive North 
American attitudes to a worldwide project. As a worldwide project, building a 
community of mappers from the whole world is our most important single 
diversity objective. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t encourage other 
underrepresented groups such as women, but we should step away from this kind 
of international combativeness and dog whistling. It may even be 
counterproductive: some feminists in my country think “diversity” has become a 
code word for misogyny.

--
Andrew


From: Celine Jacquin 
Sent: 09 December 2020 19:06
To: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org ; 
talk@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive 
Behavior in the OSM Community

Hello everybody
I hope you are all well

We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have reacted to 
the conversation in the osm-talk-list 
(https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html) 
considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have faced for 
many years in the community, which is one of the greatest obstacles to 
diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the desirable 
mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and improve diversity.

We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented to sign 
it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing


On behalf of the signatories
Best regards

Céline Jacquin
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Midgard]

This whole thread caused me great distress on account of some messages I saw 
that came across as
polarizing.

The reason I would be discouraged from joining OSM discussion right now would 
be hostility and
passive aggressive bickering. And this is among people who I suppose all mean 
the best for each
other.

So please, everyone, if you write a message, consider rereading it to make sure 
it doesn't sound
aggressive or polarising.

Peace.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Yves via talk]

Niels, Arnalielsewhere post wasn't about mapping, the map is used to illustrate 
something. 
I agree with others comments pledging for more time to be taken to read someone 
else's lines. 
Yves___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

arnalie faye vicario:

Hello/kumusta,

What an overwhelming response!

This is my first time to email thru the global osm talk; it really takes true grit to 
join the conversations, huge thanks to the people who inspired me and sparked the flame.


I will keep it short and redirect you to a (short) OSM Diary I wrote on Why WOMEN are 
pushing for a safe and inclusive space in OSM: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/arnalielsewhere/diary/395064 




You diary example is a great argument for the workings of OSM. We can tag everything 
and data consumers can use what they need.


But why have you not tagged
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/100466621
with lit=yes ?

And all this has nothing with these mailing lists.

It also has nothing to do with welcoming diversity and inclusion.
I, and surely many other white males, have tagged thousands of ways and paths with 
lit=yes.


Not only for the benefit of women. There are also men that need it for security. And 
children (both boys and girls) or their parents. It could be used to assist vehicles 
in handling lights and speed, etc. Or for astronomers.


And we have not discouraged any women or men from tagging where ways are lit.

I just checked with overpass and I have edited more than 32.000 ways with lit 
set.
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1133

So I do feel disappointed by your diary implying that as a white male I am 
unwelcoming diversity and inclusion by ignoring lit tags.


I think you should encourage women to tag more with lit=yes/no and other things you 
believe are more important to women. Not that men could not also do it (like I am).


But we are volunteers and there is nothing wrong in tagging the things that are most 
useful to us. For example I have very little interest in manholes or power-poles.
But I have tagged 300+ bars with smoking. Because I prefer to have my beers without 
smoke. It is of course also useful to smokers looking for a bar, which is fine with 
me as it just makes OSM more useful.
I am not particularly interested in volleyball, but I have made sure that all rowing 
clubs in and close to Denmark are in OSM.

About 280 of them: https://agol.dk/elgaard/roklubber.html

I also think that routing apps could take advantage of lit tags by having a "prefer 
lit roads" option. That it outside the scope of OSM, but as we get more ways tagget 
with "lit", it get more likely to happen and more useful.



A slide from @mapmakerdavid states "it takes good relationships to navigate an 
ocean.”

=Arnalie

Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 10, 2020, at 8:01 PM, James  wrote:


> The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.

>Right, this is true. Sadly true. Something I also know from Linux Communities 
and other Open Source/Open Data Communities.

Same in programming and IT fields, firefighters, mechanics, carpenters, 
construction workers, taxi drivers, etc etc...


Now is it a simple lack of interest in the field? Gate keeping? 
Discrimination/Sexism? Is it because of tradition that is still lingering?


We should work with other humans and see why as well as question ourselves what can 
we do/change?


We should treat other fellow humans, despite sex, race or country of origin, as we 
would want to be treated.


Would you like to be put down based on your employer, despite your knowledge? 
Probably not, then don't do it


Would you like to be put down based on your genitalia, despite being quite 
knowledgeable? No? Then don't do it.


On Thu., Dec. 10, 2020, 6:38 a.m. tilmanreinecke--- via talk, 
mailto:talk@openstreetmap.org>> wrote:


> The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.

Right, this is true. Sadly true. Something I also know from Linux 
Communities
and other Open Source/Open Data Communities.

> The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional 
hostility
towards women in the OSM community.

I did not hear about something like that what can be called "systematic". 
Are
you sure that we have something like that in OSM? If yes, then please point 
to
where that happened. I am pretty sure that this is not something 
systematic. I
know women not feeling this way as you because OpenStreetMap is an open and
welcoming community.

Greetings

Sören


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive
Behavior in the OSM Community
From: Clay Smalley __
To: Celine Jacquin __
CC: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org ,osm __


I'm noticing a pattern here in the replies to this email:

Only men have replied. This is, unfortunately, par for the course on the
OSM mailing lists. The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable 
fact.
The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional 
hostility
towards women in the OSM community. The 

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[arnalie faye vicario]

Hello/kumusta,

What an overwhelming response! 

This is my first time to email thru the global osm talk; it really takes true 
grit to join the conversations, huge thanks to the people who inspired me and 
sparked the flame.

I will keep it short and redirect you to a (short) OSM Diary I wrote on Why 
WOMEN are pushing for a safe and inclusive space in OSM: 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/arnalielsewhere/diary/395064

A slide from @mapmakerdavid states "it takes good relationships to navigate an 
ocean.”

=Arnalie

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 10, 2020, at 8:01 PM, James  wrote:
> 
> 
> > The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.
> 
> >Right, this is true. Sadly true. Something I also know from Linux 
> >Communities and other Open Source/Open Data Communities.
> 
> Same in programming and IT fields, firefighters, mechanics, carpenters, 
> construction workers, taxi drivers, etc etc...
> 
> Now is it a simple lack of interest in the field? Gate keeping? 
> Discrimination/Sexism? Is it because of tradition that is still lingering?
> 
> We should work with other humans and see why as well as question ourselves 
> what can we do/change?
> 
> We should treat other fellow humans, despite sex, race or country of origin, 
> as we would want to be treated.
> 
> Would you like to be put down based on your employer, despite your knowledge? 
> Probably not, then don't do it
> 
> Would you like to be put down based on your genitalia, despite being quite 
> knowledgeable? No? Then don't do it.
> 
>> On Thu., Dec. 10, 2020, 6:38 a.m. tilmanreinecke--- via talk, 
>>  wrote:
>> > The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.
>> 
>> Right, this is true. Sadly true. Something I also know from Linux 
>> Communities and other Open Source/Open Data Communities.
>> 
>> > The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional 
>> > hostility towards women in the OSM community.
>> 
>> I did not hear about something like that what can be called "systematic". 
>> Are you sure that we have something like that in OSM? If yes, then please 
>> point to where that happened. I am pretty sure that this is not something 
>> systematic. I know women not feeling this way as you because OpenStreetMap 
>> is an open and welcoming community.
>> 
>> Greetings
>> 
>> Sören
>> 
>> 
>>  Original Message 
>> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive 
>> Behavior in the OSM Community
>> From: Clay Smalley 
>> To: Celine Jacquin 
>> CC: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org,osm 
>> 
>> 
>> I'm noticing a pattern here in the replies to this email:
>> 
>> Only men have replied. This is, unfortunately, par for the course on the OSM 
>> mailing lists. The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact. The 
>> simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional hostility 
>> towards women in the OSM community. The replies themselves are the best 
>> evidence of this.
>> 
>> These men replying have taken it upon themselves to explain to a woman what 
>> constitutes misogyny. News flash: you do not get to decide what offends 
>> other people. If you are a man, misogyny will never happen to you by 
>> definition. If you are a man, you have never been, are not, and will never 
>> be a victim of misogyny. This isn't your area of expertise. Listen to the 
>> experts.
>> 
>> Some men replying have even mentioned how this draft letter hurts their 
>> feelings. These men need to slow down and consider for a moment that their 
>> temporarily hurt feelings are less important than the safety of women. Men's 
>> feelings are irrelevant to issues where women are victims.
>> 
>> As far as I know, various OSM-affiliated groups have codes of conduct, but 
>> there isn't one governing these mailing lists. We need to adopt a code of 
>> conduct yesterday.
>> 
>> -Clay (they/them)
>> 
>>> On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 2:13 PM Celine Jacquin  wrote:
>>> Hello everybody
>>> I hope you are all well
>>> 
>>> We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have reacted 
>>> to the conversation in the osm-talk-list 
>>> (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html) 
>>> considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have faced 
>>> for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest obstacles to 
>>> diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
>>> That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the desirable 
>>> mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and improve 
>>> diversity.
>>> 
>>> We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented to 
>>> sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome): 
>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On behalf of the signatories
>>> Best regards
>>> 
>>> Céline Jacquin
>>> ___
>>> talk mailing 

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Jiri Vlasak]

My bad. This was meant to HOT mailing list [1]. Sorry.

[1]: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/2020-December/015409.html

jiri

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Jiri Vlasak]

For the ones who are interested in the whole discussion:

- talk mailing list archive:

- https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085736.html

- osmf-talk mailing list archive:

- 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2020-December/007541.html
- 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2020-December/007523.html
- 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2020-December/007530.html

Links to archived messages in Dec 2020:

- https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/thread.html
- https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2020-December/thread.html

jiri

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[James]

> The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.

>Right, this is true. Sadly true. Something I also know from Linux
Communities and other Open Source/Open Data Communities.

Same in programming and IT fields, firefighters, mechanics, carpenters,
construction workers, taxi drivers, etc etc...

Now is it a simple lack of interest in the field? Gate keeping?
Discrimination/Sexism? Is it because of tradition that is still lingering?

We should work with other humans and see why as well as question ourselves
what can we do/change?

We should treat other fellow humans, despite sex, race or country of
origin, as we would want to be treated.

Would you like to be put down based on your employer, despite your
knowledge? Probably not, then don't do it

Would you like to be put down based on your genitalia, despite being quite
knowledgeable? No? Then don't do it.

On Thu., Dec. 10, 2020, 6:38 a.m. tilmanreinecke--- via talk, <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> > The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.
>
> Right, this is true. Sadly true. Something I also know from Linux
> Communities and other Open Source/Open Data Communities.
>
> > The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional
> hostility towards women in the OSM community.
>
> I did not hear about something like that what can be called "systematic".
> Are you sure that we have something like that in OSM? If yes, then please
> point to where that happened. I am pretty sure that this is not something
> systematic. I know women not feeling this way as you because OpenStreetMap
> is an open and welcoming community.
>
> Greetings
>
> Sören
>
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic
> Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community
> From: Clay Smalley
> To: Celine Jacquin
> CC: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org,osm
>
>
> I'm noticing a pattern here in the replies to this email:
>
> Only men have replied. This is, unfortunately, par for the course on the
> OSM mailing lists. The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.
> The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional hostility
> towards women in the OSM community. The replies themselves are the best
> evidence of this.
>
> These men replying have taken it upon themselves to explain to a woman
> what constitutes misogyny. News flash: you do not get to decide what
> offends other people. If you are a man, misogyny will never happen to you
> by definition. If you are a man, you have never been, are not, and will
> never be a victim of misogyny. This isn't your area of expertise. Listen to
> the experts.
>
> Some men replying have even mentioned how this draft letter hurts their
> feelings. These men need to slow down and consider for a moment that their
> temporarily hurt feelings are less important than the safety of women.
> Men's feelings are irrelevant to issues where women are victims.
>
> As far as I know, various OSM-affiliated groups have codes of conduct, but
> there isn't one governing these mailing lists. We need to adopt a code of
> conduct yesterday.
>
> -Clay (they/them)
>
> On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 2:13 PM Celine Jacquin  wrote:
>
>> Hello everybody
>> I hope you are all well
>>
>> We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have reacted
>> to the conversation in the osm-talk-list (
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html)
>> considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have faced
>> for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest obstacles to
>> diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
>> That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the desirable
>> mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and improve
>> diversity.
>>
>> We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented to
>> sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing
>>
>>
>> On behalf of the signatories
>> Best regards
>>
>> Céline Jacquin
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Blake Girardot]

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 6:38 AM tilmanreinecke--- via talk
 wrote:
>
> > The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.
>
> Right, this is true. Sadly true. Something I also know from Linux Communities 
> and other Open Source/Open Data Communities.
>
> > The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional hostility 
> > towards women in the OSM community.
>
> I did not hear about something like that what can be called "systematic". Are 
> you sure that we have something like that in OSM? If yes, then please point 
> to where that happened. I am pretty sure that this is not something 
> systematic. I know women not feeling this way as you because OpenStreetMap is 
> an open and welcoming community.
>
> Greetings
>
> Sören


Please allow me to just get to 90% of the replies people will send,
they are a mix of these:

1. Can you provide more evidence, all the evidence and incidents
already created are not good enough or I can not be bothered to look
for them?

2. Please do my research for me, I can not be bothered to learn what
systemic issues surround inclusion, diversity and equity globally!

3. This does not affect me or I do not understand it, I am not sure
which, but it is not a problem. Prove me wrong.

4. I know other people who feel another way, so it is not a problem.
Prove me wrong.

Thank you to everyone who does _not_ reply with one of these! I look
forward to working with you!

Best wishes,
Blake

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[tilmanreinecke--- via talk]

> The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.Right, this is true. Sadly true. Something I also know from Linux Communities and other Open Source/Open Data Communities.> The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional hostility towards women in the OSM community.I did not hear about something like that what can be called "systematic". Are you sure that we have something like that in OSM? If yes, then please point to where that happened. I am pretty sure that this is not something systematic. I know women not feeling this way as you because OpenStreetMap is an open and welcoming community.GreetingsSören Original Message Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM CommunityFrom: Clay Smalley To: Celine Jacquin CC: osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org,osm I'm noticing a pattern here in the replies to this email:Only men have replied. This is, unfortunately, par for the course on the OSM mailing lists. The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact. The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional hostility towards women in the OSM community. The replies themselves are the best evidence of this.These men replying have taken it upon themselves to explain to a woman what constitutes misogyny. News flash: you do not get to decide what offends other people. If you are a man, misogyny will never happen to you by definition. If you are a man, you have never been, are not, and will never be a victim of misogyny. This isn't your area of expertise. Listen to the experts.Some men replying have even mentioned how this draft letter hurts their feelings. These men need to slow down and consider for a moment that their temporarily hurt feelings are less important than the safety of women. Men's feelings are irrelevant to issues where women are victims.As far as I know, various OSM-affiliated groups have codes of conduct, but there isn't one governing these mailing lists. We need to adopt a code of conduct yesterday.-Clay (they/them)On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 2:13 PM Celine Jacquin  wrote:Hello everybodyI hope you are all wellWe, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have reacted to the conversation in the osm-talk-list (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html) considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have faced for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest obstacles to diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the desirable mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and improve diversity.We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented to sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome): https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharingOn behalf of the signatoriesBest regardsCéline Jacquin
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Frederik Ramm]

@all,

I've posted a user diary about this, at
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/woodpeck/diary/395065, copied below
for your convenience.



Sorry / Bad choice of words
Posted by woodpeck on 10 December 2020 in English (English).

Hi,

I’ve recently got some flak about a mailing list post that I wrote
opposing a candidate for the OSMF board election. I felt that this
candidate and their employer, Facebook, were getting away with too many
things that would be inacceptable from anyone else.

Because the candidate and his employer steadfastly claim that the
attribution they provide was in accordance with the license, I saw an
analogy with Donald Trump claiming stuff that was obviously not true,
like “I had the greatest crowd in my inauguration” or so. And getting
away with it.

To make this point as drastically as possible, I used a quote from Trump
from before the 2016 election, the infamous “Access Hollywood Tape”. I
still remember when that - deeply misogynistic - claim of getting away
with sexual assault hit the press. I was sure: This man is never going
to be elected; it is just not possible. I was proven wrong. That’s why
the quote stuck in my head, as the eternal conundrum of why so many
people can vote for a politician who says such deplorable things. (There
are other examples in history books; but this one I lived through.) When
I wrote the mailing list post, I felt that, in terms of the values we
have as OSM, claiming that you can simply ignore our attribution
requirements and hoping get away with it, was equally impossible.

The echo to my mailing list post has shown me that I should have been
more careful in which words I pick up and re-use. It was totally my
intention to say “don’t vote for that candidate because they think they
can get away with crass violations of what we think is proper”. But I
now see that, by choosing these words and not, for example, the quote
about Trump being able to shoot a person dead on Fifth Avenue and get
away with it, I have dealt a blow to women in OpenStreetMap. Had I
spoken about shooting a person, that would have been “any person” of any
gender and equally bad for everyone; but my choice of words singled out
women and contained a drastic picture of sexual assault, something that
far too many women have been subjected to, or at least know someone who
has been. By even mentioning it, no matter what the context is and how
many quotes or “not”s you put around it, you can already make a female
reader feel discouraged - such a serious topic, and it’s being used here
for a cheap political takedown.

A couple of women in OSM whom I have known for a while have reached out
to me personally to make this point and I appreciate that very much. I
now understand that no matter how many people are using the phrase, we
should all work towards getting rid of it as soon as possible, rather
than using it as if it was everyday language to make points that do not
even have anything to do with sexual assault. I will certainly be more
careful in the future. I will still be finding clear words when speaking
out against things or behaviour that I find problematic, but I will
double check not to put anyone in the crossfire by choosing the wrong
words or the wrong figures of speech.

If you are a woman and if anything I ever said or wrote in OSM has given
you the impression that I am in the least a misogynist, or don’t want
women in OSM, or think that they are inferior programmers, or their
place is in the home with the kids or any of that last-century shit,
please be assured that nothing could be further from the truth. I have
worked with many women in OSM and I think we got along well even when we
had different opinions. Over the years, I’ve personally introduced more
than a hundred women to OSM mapping through introductory courses at the
local university and other events. I’m also teaching women to code as
part of their GIS studies at the local university, and I think that
within the limits of what I can do as a man, I’m doing these jobs well,
treating women with the greatest respect, encouraging them, never once
being condescending or giving them the impression that their male
classmates are “better at tech” (newsflash, they’re not, though they
often think they are).

I’m totally on board with the idea that people of any gender should get
the same chances in life. That includes taking steps to support
underrepresented genders in OSM, and that includes not throwing around
phrases about sexual assault in discussions about map attribution. I am
sorry for that; it was a bad judgement on my part. If you are a woman in
OSM - or a woman interested in OSM - and there’s something I can do to
make OSM a nicer place for you, feel free to reach out. OSM needs more
women, not less.

Sincerely, Frederik


-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Blake Girardot]

Hi Celine,

Thank you and your collaborators for taking the time to write this
document and thank you all for posting it to our community.

My greatest hope is that people will read it and really make an effort
to hear what you and others have been saying for a long time.

Hopefully, it keeps the momentum going so those long working to make
progress and improvements to the community here feel supported and
appreciated. I am amazed at the folks who have stayed and deal with
the abusive behavior on the OSM lists, you all are inspiring.

Pro Tip for those who are not used to listening to others: You listen
to what they say and you respond by thanking them and then keeping
quiet and thinking really hard about what they said or wrote and what
it means That is listening. Responding about why the person is wrong
is not really listening :)

Solidarity and best wishes,
Blake

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 2:13 PM Celine Jacquin  wrote:
>
> Hello everybody
> I hope you are all well
>
> We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have reacted to 
> the conversation in the osm-talk-list 
> (https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html) 
> considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have faced 
> for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest obstacles to 
> diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
> That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the desirable 
> mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and improve diversity.
>
> We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented to sign 
> it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing
>
>
> On behalf of the signatories
> Best regards
>
> Céline Jacquin
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



-- 

Blake Girardot
OSM Wiki - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Bgirardot
HOTOSM Member - https://hotosm.org/users/blake_girardot
skype: jblakegirardot

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Andy Townsend]

Hi Céline, hi all.

Like you, I'm just another participant in this list*.  However, perhaps 
it would be helpful to refer the existing etiquette guidelines adopted 
by the OSMF ages ago: https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Etiquette .  
It's clear that Frederik's original post didn't abide by all of the 
points under "Mailing Lists" there (which include "Calmly adding to the 
discussion can help keep things tame on the mailing list" among others; 
clearly he did not follow those recommendations).  Rory's already 
rightly called that out at 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085723.html 
("There are many examples of people excusing how Trump acted before the 
2016 election, claiming he would be “presidential” when elected, and you 
had to choose the example regarding sexual assault?").  It's also clear 
that your Google document doesn't abide by those either.  Note that that 
won't be visible to some quite large OSM communities who don't have 
access to Google docs due to US government restrictions.  I did try and 
include the text in this message but that caused it to exceed the list 
message limit; perhaps you could put a copy in the OSM wiki instead 
where everyone can see it?


You write "Power dynamics in OSM are controlled by a dominant 
contributor profile: white, western and male" which I doubt that many 
would disagree with.  However, you go on to say "This power dynamic 
leads to a communication style which includes misogynistic, hostile, 
targeting, doxing, unfriendly, competitive, intimidating, patronising 
messaging, which is offensive to us".


The first "mailing list" item in 
https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Etiquette is "Assume good faith".  I 
would always argue that an attempt at dialogue, which includes both 
sides listening, is always better that an escalation of rhetoric.  That 
doesn't mean there aren't actual "unfriendly"or "hostile" messages 
within OSM channels, as well as messages that were perceived as 
"unfriendly"or "hostile" even when they weren't meant as such, but it 
does mean that actually talking to the real person behind the messages 
is surely the way forward**.  Continuing with "... doxing, competitive, 
intimidating ..." without citing evidence of each of those doesn't add 
weight to the argument; it detracts from it.


That doesn't mean that people who want change have to somehow be 
restricted to "asking nicely" for it (throughout history change has been 
forced by people who refused to "ask nicely" - in the last century the 
Pankhursts, Dietrich Bonhoffer et al, the ANC and Stonewall all spring 
to mind).  It's entirely normal for both sides of a heated argument to 
view the other's as "unreasonable", but hyperbole really doesn't help to 
shed light rather than heat on things. We're all actually trying to 
achieve the same goal here*** and in an election, the community can 
decide whose vision of how to get there is best.


Speaking of which: it's a bit late for this year; but have you thought 
of standing for the board yourself?


Best Regards

Andy

(sending to the list this time after a previous attempt inadvertantly 
went astray)


* full disclosure: I'm a member of OSM's Data Working Group, so am far 
from without agency in OSM - I am also white, western and male.  With a 
DWG hat on I regularly see problems escalated to us where the language 
used has got more than a little out of control. 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-November/085658.html 
is pretty typical of the approach I'll try and use in those cases


** In the world of OSM edits I'm a huge fan of changeset discussion 
comments as the primary means of discussing an edit that has been made.  
They're not a perfect mechanism, but the fact that they're public and 
inherently person-to-person helps to detoxify dialogue.


*** I'm sure that both Michal and Frederik are striving for what they 
genuinely believe is best for OSM.  The fact that they fundamentally 
disagree about how to achieve that doesn't mean that one or the other is 
acting in bad faith.


On 09/12/2020 19:06, Celine Jacquin wrote:


Hello everybody
I hope you are all well

We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have 
reacted to the conversation in the osm-talk-list 
(https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html 
) 
considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have 
faced for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest 
obstacles to diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the 
desirable mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and 
improve diversity.


We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented 
to sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[ndrw]

Sorry for adding to the noise but this is important. Quote from the 
document:


   Changes to form part of OSMFs agenda over the coming 1-2 years:

1.

   Make Working Groups and OSM activities more equitable: the
   Diversity and Inclusion special committee should actively work
   to consult, analyze and understand the structural limitations of
   under-represented people to participate, though permanent
   consultation and communication mechanism, and improve openness
   in the Working Groups and OSM activities.

2.

   Official governance roles should be accountable to diversity and
   inclusion: OSMF Board and Working Group members should take
   Diversity & Inclusion (D) training, and sign D statements.
   This should also be available to all local chapters and
   community members.

3.

   Support Diversity and equality for Local Chapters, recognizing
   that constituencies have different legal frameworks and contexts.

4.

   Create anInclusive Framework for Board Members to explicitly be
   aware of the accountabilities regarding DEI with their roles. A
   non-partisan community facilitator could provide support for
   thisforthis.

It is an attempt to forcefully change OSMF governance, pure and simple, 
and I strongly disagree with that. OSMF exists to promote use of 
openstreetmap and to encourage people to map. Inclusivity and diversity 
fit these goals and are well established in OSM (something I can attest 
to personally) but they are /not/ goals on their own.


Above proposals go far beyond inclusivity and diversity. In fact, points 
1, 2 and 4 directly violate them and as such they have no place in OSM.


It is fine to /create/ an organization or a political party to promote 
new ideas. It is /not/ fine to /hijack/ an existing and successful 
organization and change its charter against its existing members.



As for Frederic's email:

- It does not represent a systemic failure of OSMF or OSM in general. In 
fact, it attracted considerable amount of criticism for what it was.


- It was off-topic, unnecessary and in very poor taste (quite vulgar, 
frankly) but it was not harming anyone except Donald Trump and Mike (by 
unfairly comparing him to DT).



ndrw6


On 09/12/2020 19:06, Celine Jacquin wrote:

Hello everybody
I hope you are all well

We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have 
reacted to the conversation in the osm-talk-list 
(https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html 
) 
considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have 
faced for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest 
obstacles to diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the 
desirable mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and 
improve diversity.


We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented 
to sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing 




On behalf of the signatories
Best regards

Céline Jacquin

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

Considering the reaction - especially strong in the USA, and the fact 
that I'm a candidate to the Board of the Openstreetmap Foundation, I 
suppose I have to make a statement of my position.


In preamble, I condemn the use of sexual assault metaphor - that has no 
place anywhere.


In understand that the form of assertiveness traditional in mailing 
lists and forums can be off-putting. I may be part of that problem 
because, even as I dislike aggressive tones, I take dealing with them as 
a cost of doing business. That may be part of why different communities 
have fostered their own communications channels - I can't stand a 
Facebook thread, a pile of Slack channels or Discord noise for a minute 
but I'm happy that each village decorates his pub in his own taste. 
There is more to Openstreetmap than the @openstreetmap.org mailing 
lists... I would even bet that their population is considerably smaller 
nowadays than the communities that have flourished elsewhere. Users have 
mitigated the problem with their feet - compounding the trend of younger 
ones not even considering mailing lists as an appropriate channel at 
all. Do my white hair show yet ?


On the other hand, let's not take fragmentation as an excuse for failing 
to consider improvement potential. A couple of years ago, in a diary 
Heather Leson posted Public Lab's code of conduct 
(https://publiclab.org/conduct). My first reaction at the concept was to 
consider it infantilizing - can't we all exercise common sense ? It took 
me a while to connect that to my old intercultural management courses at 
ESSCA: when people from different cultures interact, there is no common 
sense pre-existing - it must be built. It follows that, while clumsy, 
starting with explicit norms may be an an effective way to bootstrap 
common sense among an highly diverse population. So count me in !


That said, I do not understand how a community where the barrier to 
entry is as low as editing a node can be perceived as gatekeeping. I 
never asked for anyone's permission to do anything in Openstreetmap - I 
just tried things, sometimes in hilariously wrong ways... The do-ocracy 
isn't a myth, everything really is up to us. And none of that requires 
any specific genital configuration. So, the explanation for the male 
majority in the visible Openstreetmap community has to lie elsewhere.


As I failed to answer the "What will you do to encourage more women 
leaders in OSM working groups and governance?" official question (it was 
an involuntary oversight, but I don't expect anyone to believe me), as a 
lazy pupil I'll copy my neighbor's excellent answer - Roland Olbricht 
put it better than I could have:


"As a first step, we should be bluntly honest: We as OSM have no idea 
what is actually keeping people from candidating for positions. Or 
electing them: all elected candidates last year were male despite at 
least on female candidate. Or contributing in general.


Honestly again, I consider the lack of diversity primarily as a missed 
opportunity of growth and resilience. There are probably many people out 
there who both can and want to engage with OSM, even if rather as a mean 
than an end. Our community probably could triple if we get those people 
involved and excited.


Various things have been tried, but we have not seen any significant 
progress, even after years. Again, we don't know whether we are doing 
not enough of the initiatives or simply not the right things. It is time 
to compare to other similar organizations and settings that attract 
minorities better, and to scrutinize whether we can learn from them. The 
gender ratio of math students in Germany has been eased to be almost 
balanced, many years after it was discovered that school teachers 
actively and massively talked down girl's math competences. In that 
case, the true origin of the problem has been entirely outside the 
institution where the problem has been observed"


Put it on account of my male-biased point of view if you will, but I 
believe there are obstacle to participation more significant than 
gender. Local communities overcome the language barrier by producing 
documentation in their own idiom - but the software's world alignment on 
English remains a strong barrier. In every African country I have 
visited, the cost of Internet access keeps many willing souls from 
taking part in Openstreetmap. Leisure time is luxury - many of my 
African friends do not understand why I spend time on pursuits that do 
not improve my income. So barriers to entry do exist - but they may not 
be those that produce the most outrage in our circles. So I support that 
statement from the call to action: "Diversity and Inclusion special 
committee should actively work to consult, analyze and understand the 
structural limitations of under-represented people to participate".


Finally, writing one's name in signature of a text that evolves after 
you have signed it feels foolish to me - but then again, 

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Clay Smalley]

I'm noticing a pattern here in the replies to this email:

Only men have replied. This is, unfortunately, par for the course on the
OSM mailing lists. The lack of discussion by non-men is an undeniable fact.
The simplest explanation for this is the systematic institutional hostility
towards women in the OSM community. The replies themselves are the best
evidence of this.

These men replying have taken it upon themselves to explain to a woman what
constitutes misogyny. News flash: you do not get to decide what offends
other people. If you are a man, misogyny will never happen to you by
definition. If you are a man, you have never been, are not, and will never
be a victim of misogyny. This isn't your area of expertise. Listen to the
experts.

Some men replying have even mentioned how this draft letter hurts their
feelings. These men need to slow down and consider for a moment that their
temporarily hurt feelings are less important than the safety of women.
Men's feelings are irrelevant to issues where women are victims.

As far as I know, various OSM-affiliated groups have codes of conduct, but
there isn't one governing these mailing lists. We need to adopt a code of
conduct yesterday.

-Clay (they/them)

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 2:13 PM Celine Jacquin  wrote:

> Hello everybody
> I hope you are all well
>
> We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have reacted
> to the conversation in the osm-talk-list (
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html)
> considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have faced
> for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest obstacles to
> diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
> That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the desirable
> mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and improve
> diversity.
>
> We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented to
> sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing
>
>
> On behalf of the signatories
> Best regards
>
> Céline Jacquin
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

when I write something on a mailing list, it is clear that I am the
author and that I have to take responsibility for what I write. If I
write bullshit, people will rightly point out my mistakes. If I offend
someone, it is clear who the offending party is.

This document that you have published here "on behalf of the
signatories" contains a number of accusations against me, but unlike on
a mailing list I am not told who has been making these accusations, and
I am not able to represent myself in the same forum where the
accusations are made. I would like to dispute the claim that I was using
"dehumanizing language", but I fear that you have already spread your
claim to the world without giving me that opportunity.

I assume that the moral legitimacy for such an action comes from the
assumption that I am somehow higher up some pecking order, and that it
is always ok to attack those who are somehow "above", even with unfair
means, because them being higher up means that the playing field is not
fair to begin with. In order to bolster that claim, I am being made into
more than just an average human being: I am "past board member of OSMF"
(true), "administrator on four mailing lists" (unsure), and "member of
many working groups" (false, it is only one).

I might be an administrator on some mailing lists. I remember recently
writing to a co-admin of osmf-talk because I had lost the password. This
is not a job that in OSM's reality carries actual responsibility, or
power. I cannot remember a single instance where I have used special
powers of a mailing list moderator. This is a job that, in OSM, is
passed around to whoever doesn't run away fast enough. At most it
involves logging in to the web interface and debugging someone's
complaint why their emails don't get through. It is literally not worth
mentioning.

Why am I going on about this? I have never used this mailing list
"power" for good or bad, nor is it advertised anywhere to embiggen my
status. Why, therefore, do the authors of the document choose to make a
big deal out of that? It does sound grand to an outsider, right?
Administrator of four mailing lists, by golly, that must be an
influential person, right? But we all know that it has zero meaning. So
either that particular "fact" has been introduced into the document by
someone who is not at all familiar with how things run around here -
someone who lacks the cultural closeness to the medium to judge what is
happening there - OR it has been written by someone who knows precisely
that being a mailing list administrator counts for nothing, but has
included that fact anyway, deliberately misleading an outside audience.

Same with the "member of many working groups". I am saddened by the hate
that I read in your document, but I am even more saddened by the fact
that whoever hates me so didn't even care to get these facts right.

I think that some of the suggestions you make have merit, and I find it
very unfortunate that you're basically asking people to sign off on your
list of good suggestions with a small aside of "BTW this Frederik Ramm
guy has sent a dehumanizing message". Supporters of your document don't
even get the option of saying "agree on your plan, but don't agree on
the moral judgement you're passing on this one named person." You might
be right about some of the systemic issues you list in your document,
but making me the only named bad person in your document and therefore,
by implication, an example of all that is wrong in OSM, has a sour taste.

It is not an instrument that you would wish other people use against
you. You shouldn't, therefore, use it against me. The unnamed authors of
the document should have the dignity to separate the quarrel they have
with me from the quarrel they have with systemic issues in OSM.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Darafei Praliaskouski via talk]

Hello,

On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 10:48 PM Maarten Deen  wrote:

> I have been silent about this but when a document is drafted where only
> supporters will be heard, I have to speak out in Frederiks support.
> I have seen no systemic aggressive behaviour that demotivates and
> excludes participation by women and minority groups in OSM or behaviour
> that degrades the spirit of open community culture, and damages the
> OpenStreetMap reputation from Frederik.
>

Basically, a person (who is a board candidate) was denied to be able to own
their own will, substituted with their employer, and insulted in a way that
I cannot construct a way of self-defense from.

That was done by a former board member, an employee/owner of a company that
has a seating board member, and if we mirror the whole thing - "done to
protect Geofabrik's investment into having a seat on the board". Of course,
such an interpretation will not be acceptable for current board member,
employee of Geofabrik and expectedly a report of Frederik.

For some reason this aggressive gatekeeping behavior to secure a board seat
from a small company is tolerated and comes unnoticed. I believe if you
think Frederik's behavior is okay there, you are indeed a part of a
problem, to my view. Michal has decades of experience in cartography & OSM
before joining FB, but that is erased and ignored by Frederik in
unacceptable fashion.

I support the document below.


>
> On 2020-12-09 20:06, Celine Jacquin wrote:
> > Hello everybody
> > I hope you are all well
> >
> > We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have
> > reacted to the conversation in the osm-talk-list
> > (
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html)
> > considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have
> > faced for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest
> > obstacles to diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real
> > change.That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the
> > desirable mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and
> > improve diversity.
> >
> > We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented
> > to sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
> >
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing
> >
> > On behalf of the signatories
>


Darafei,
as an individual who's with OSM from 2008.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

Celine Jacquin:

Hello everybody
I hope you are all well


I have not commented on this before because I thought it was better to just let 
it pass.

It was not a very elegant email.
But it was not misogynistic.

I did not think it was offensive or dehumanizing.
Maybe Trumps words were, but that does not mean that Ramm's paraphrasing was.
Just as Céline Jacquin's email here is not offensive because she links to a webpage 
that contains the exact same words.


There is only one person that could be offended by Ramms's email and that is Michal 
Migurski. I note that he is endorsing your statement. I had hoped that he would argue 
that the comparison was wrong or unfair.



We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have reacted to the 
conversation in the osm-talk-list 
(https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html 
) 
considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have faced for many 
years in the community, which is one of the greatest obstacles to diversity at all 
levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the desirable mechanisms to 
work solidly on the rules of coexistence and improve diversity.


We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented to sign it. 
Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing 




On behalf of the signatories
Best regards

Céline Jacquin

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk




--
Niels Elgaard Larsen

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[John Whelan]

The issue of diversity is complex.  In Africa many of the locals whilst 
feeling that it would be nice to have all local mappers they recognise 
that the map would not be as complete without the armchair mappers.


Unfortunately when you work in technical areas often you'll see a group 
build up expertise over time.  These people have the frame work if you 
like to to see how things fit together and it is how things like 
overpass have come about.


Fredrick is one of those people who has a great deal of knowledge and 
OpenStreetMap would be much poorer without him.


It does take time to build up expertise and to take part in the 
discussions in a meaningful way.  However using terms such as "*This 
power dynamic leads to a communication style which includes 
misogynistic, hostile, targeting, doxing, unfriendly, competitive, 
intimidating, patronising messaging, which is offensive to us and forces 
many of us to remain as observers and without the confidence to 
participate actively" I think is purely destructive. Recognise that some 
of the wording you will come across is pure jargon. It works because the 
group the communication is taking place is to some extent closed and 
jargon gets the message across effectively and quickly. Communication 
that is more general does need the "can a six year old understand this 
approach". *
I also have an issue with expecting everyone to conform to a set of 
social norms, I can think of at least one mapper who is obsessive over 
tiny details and goes to great lengths to get them right on the map.  
However his social interactions may seem a bit abrupt to some.  His 
mapping contributions though are extremely valuable.


I also have an issue with those who say we don't have enough female 
mappers. Many females do not map using their own name but will use a 
male sounding name to avoid problems.  Hence you cannot say with any 
accuracy just how many mappers are male orfemale.


If you feel that OpenStreetMap is not open enough then there are forks 
that you can join inor you can build your own.


OpenStreetMap does respect local mappers points of view, which I think 
addresses your comments about minorities. Which is why the map uses 
different conventionsin different places.


However that brings us back to the problem of how decisions are made.  
Certainly in Africa the NGOs have played a part in pushing for 
consistent tags and tagging standards and I am happy to accept that 
those who coordinated the efforts where often white, etc etc but they 
did consult with everyone who would talk to them.  Things like purdah 
can be an issue.  Communicating through a six year old because his 
mother was in purdah means mother's views may not be communicated easily.


Cheerio John


Celine Jacquin wrote on 2020-12-09 14:06:

Hello everybody
I hope you are all well

We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have 
reacted to the conversation in the osm-talk-list 
(https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html) 
considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have 
faced for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest 
obstacles to diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the 
desirable mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and 
improve diversity.


We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented 
to sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):

https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing


On behalf of the signatories
Best regards

Céline Jacquin


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


--
Sent from Postbox 
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Jmapb]

On 12/9/2020 2:34 PM, Maarten Deen wrote:

If you can not make an analogy then conversation and discussion is
lost and I do not see how this comment would degrade women.


Many in the world have the good fortune to live lives where the constant
threat of sexual assault is not an issue. To them, Trump's boasts may
seem offensive but also slightly absurd, and even weak.

Many others in the world are survivors of sexual violence. Many are
enduring it on a daily basis. To them, casual description of sexual
violence just to make a point -- even quoted, even as an analogy -- is
problematic.

Like you, I've personally seen no "systemic aggressive behaviour" in the
OSM community -- but I'll take seriously anyone who has.

Jason




___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

(1)
I am strongly opposed to quota system

"Board Seat allocation for OSMF members who are women and non-cis males,
and who are citizens of Low and Middle Income Countries"

(also, note that it is "citizens of", not actually poor people, also looking at 
Wikipedia
"this definition is not universally agreed upon. There is also no clear 
agreement on
which countries fit this category."
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Low_and_Middle_Income_Countries )

(2)
Also, while I am one of people who protested about comparing plagiarism to rape,
claiming that it was "dehumanizing message" is going too far in my opinion.

(3)
"Make Working Groups and OSM activities more equitable" is it also
code for "introduce quota system"?


Dec 9, 2020, 20:06 by cel...@gmail.com:

> Hello everybody
> I hope you are all well
>
> We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have reacted to 
> the conversation in the osm-talk-list (> 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html> ) 
> considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have faced 
> for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest obstacles to 
> diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real change.
> That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the desirable 
> mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and improve diversity.
>
> We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented to sign 
> it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome): 
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing
>
>
> On behalf of the signatories
> Best regards
>
> Céline Jacquin
>

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Call to Take Action and Confront Systemic Offensive Behavior in the OSM Community

[Maarten Deen]

I have been silent about this but when a document is drafted where only 
supporters will be heard, I have to speak out in Frederiks support.
I have seen no systemic aggressive behaviour that demotivates and 
excludes participation by women and minority groups in OSM or behaviour 
that degrades the spirit of open community culture, and damages the 
OpenStreetMap reputation from Frederik.


If you then feel that I am part of the problem, I am saddened and hurt 
by that because I do not feel myself that way. I have never been 
non-supportive of anyone in this community or any other.
I feel this is more a witchhunt than anything else. If you can not make 
an analogy then conversation and discussion is lost and I do not see how 
this comment would degrade women. It degrades the maker of the comment, 
i.e. Trump.


Regards,
Maarten

On 2020-12-09 20:06, Celine Jacquin wrote:

Hello everybody
I hope you are all well

We, several groups, chapters, organizations and individuals, have
reacted to the conversation in the osm-talk-list
(https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2020-December/085692.html)
considering that it is an incident symptomatic of the problem we have
faced for many years in the community, which is one of the greatest
obstacles to diversity at all levels of OSM. Time to make a real
change.That is why we have developed a beginning of statement on the
desirable mechanisms to work solidly on the rules of coexistence and
improve diversity.

We bring it to your attention and invite anyone who feels represented
to sign it. Translations are in preparation (any help is welcome):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/130JCTX9ve4H4ORXznmIVTpXiN3TX8nRGA8ayuTZ9ECI/edit?usp=sharing

On behalf of the signatories

Best regards

Céline Jacquin
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk