Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

Oh yes, private streets are always a problem. In fact, I feel uncomfortable 
even walking down  dead end roads to survey, and so I avoid them. Usually I 
just record the first number, then guess the rest of the numbers on dead end 
streets.

NLS definately would be better.

That being said, who should be contacted to create a tasking manager for this?
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30 Oct 2020, 22:09 by scolebou...@joda.org:

> Having surveyed thousands of addresses in SW London, I've done a quick
> compare and it looks pretty good to me. Sure there are the odd case
> here and there where buildings have changed, but for the many parts of
> London with Victorian to 1930s housing stock, this will be mostly
> accurate. Just comparing the general order from low to high odds/evens
> is useful. Plus for hard to access private streets its great. As a
> warning though, it does not align perfectly with the Bing offset I'm
> using.
>
> Is there anyone with "authority" that can state this is OK to use, and
> what source tag to use?
>
> Stephen
>
>
> On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 at 18:48, Mark Goodge  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:
>> >
>> > It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
>> > in NLS is available freely.
>> >
>> > What are its licensing terms?
>> >
>> > "available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"
>>
>> It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving
>> data from it.
>>
>> I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for
>> wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey.
>> House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets
>> are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number
>> in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still
>> the same.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[Stephen Colebourne]

Having surveyed thousands of addresses in SW London, I've done a quick
compare and it looks pretty good to me. Sure there are the odd case
here and there where buildings have changed, but for the many parts of
London with Victorian to 1930s housing stock, this will be mostly
accurate. Just comparing the general order from low to high odds/evens
is useful. Plus for hard to access private streets its great. As a
warning though, it does not align perfectly with the Bing offset I'm
using.

Is there anyone with "authority" that can state this is OK to use, and
what source tag to use?

Stephen


On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 at 18:48, Mark Goodge  wrote:
>
>
>
> On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:
> >
> > It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
> > in NLS is available freely.
> >
> > What are its licensing terms?
> >
> > "available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"
>
> It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving
> data from it.
>
> I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for
> wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey.
> House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets
> are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number
> in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still
> the same.
>
> Mark
>
> ___
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> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb

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Re: [Talk-GB] Holes in modern England?

[Martin Wynne]

One of the "holes" contains the town of Kidderminster.

Looking at it on the full 25" map, that sheet is from the 1921 revision, 
the surrounding sheets are from the 1901 revision:



https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=52.38277&lon=-2.24342&layers=168&b=7

Which may explain the holey map, as a record of which revision is where. 
Or not.


Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] Holes in modern England?

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

Considering it's called "holes map" I think it is meant to have the gaps.
-- 
30 Oct 2020, 20:52 by mar...@templot.com:

> On 30/10/2020 20:34, ipswichmap...@tutanota.com wrote:
>
>> If this is referring to what I posted earlier, then you have chosen a 
>> different map to what I linked.
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> No it's a separate issue. I was browsing the NLS site when Firefox threw an 
> error. I clicked "Try again" and the holey map appeared. It seems to be an 
> extract from the normal 25" georeferenced map, but to what end I can't fathom.
>
> cheers,
>
> Martin.
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Holes in modern England?

[Martin Wynne]

On 30/10/2020 20:34, ipswichmap...@tutanota.com wrote:

If this is referring to what I posted earlier, then you have chosen a different 
map to what I linked.


Hi,

No it's a separate issue. I was browsing the NLS site when Firefox threw 
an error. I clicked "Try again" and the holey map appeared. It seems to 
be an extract from the normal 25" georeferenced map, but to what end I 
can't fathom.


cheers,

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

How do you reply to an email that wasn't sent to your inbox and still keep the 
thread structure?
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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[Mark Goodge]

On 30/10/2020 20:10, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:

Also, the messages by "Mark Goodge" and "Ken Kilfedder" (spiregrain) 
didn't show up in my email. Why is this? (Is it because their "reply 
all" didn't include my address by mistake?) I'm still getting used to 
mailing lists.


I didn't do a "reply all". I did a "reply list". That's how lists are 
supposed to work! You'll see my reply as part of the normal list 
traffic, not as a direct reply to you.


The https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/ website sorts the mails 
into "threads". How does it which email goes under which thread? 
Currently, when I hit "reply all" it shows in the archive my email 
underneath the right thread. I am assuming it know based on who I sent 
the email to. However, if the same person were to reply twice to my 
email, and then I replied to one of their emails, how would the 
archiving system know which email I replied to?


The archives will include anything that has the address 
'talk-gb@openstreetmap.org' in the To or CC lines (not sure about Bcc, 
and I can't be bothered to check!). But all list messages should, as a 
general rule, be replied to on-list - that is, by sending your reply to 
the list address, not the address of the sender. You should only reply 
directly to the sender if you need to contact them off-list.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Holes in modern England?

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

If this is referring to what I posted earlier, then you have chosen a different 
map to what I linked.

Here is the London grid map displayed using what you did:

https://geo.nls.uk/mapdata3/os/ldn_tile/#ldn_nat_grid/ol3

On the right, it shows background imagery. "OpenLayers3" in a map of OSM, 
although you can display this NLS imagery over google maps, or leaflet, or 
"google maps API".

Don't know what the "holes map" which you linked was however. It doesn't show 
house numbers but seems to have more coverage.
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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

Ok, it seems like this one didn't show up under the right thread. I moved the 
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org to the CC section and emailed m...@good-stuff.co.uk 
directly, but it didn't show up under that thread. The way I originally did it 
is by clicking on the email in the archive, which loads a mailto link, however 
it only loads talk-gb@openstreetmap.org . How do you respond to threads that 
you haven't been emailed properly?

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30 Oct 2020, 20:17 by ipswichmap...@tutanota.com:

> This is why I think that a tasking manager is good. Firstly, it is not 
> exactly "wholesale" in the sense that a lot of data with little checking. 
> Every square is mapped and then validated as well. 
>
> Secondly, this is why it is imperative to check if the buildings still exist 
> on Bing. If they do, almost certainly the housenumbers haven't changed. (As 
> mentioned by spiregrain). If the buildings have changed, then you can mark a 
> square as "bad imagery", making the tasking manager even more useful (so that 
> you can discern where the imagery is accurate and where it isn't).
>
> 
>
> Mark wrote:
>
> It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving data 
> from it.I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for 
> wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey. House 
> numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets are renamed 
> or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number in the 1950s is 
> the same number it is now, even if the building is still the same.
>
> Mark 
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] Holes in modern England?

[Adam Snape]

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 18:53 Jez Nicholson,  wrote:

> How many holes in Blackburn, Lancashire?
>

There's Tockholes for one https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/29020280

>
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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

This is why I think that a tasking manager is good. Firstly, it is not exactly 
"wholesale" in the sense that a lot of data with little checking. Every square 
is mapped and then validated as well. 

Secondly, this is why it is imperative to check if the buildings still exist on 
Bing. If they do, almost certainly the housenumbers haven't changed. (As 
mentioned by spiregrain). If the buildings have changed, then you can mark a 
square as "bad imagery", making the tasking manager even more useful (so that 
you can discern where the imagery is accurate and where it isn't).



Mark wrote:

It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving data 
from it.I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for 
wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey. House 
numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets are renamed or 
rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number in the 1950s is the 
same number it is now, even if the building is still the same.

Mark
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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

I have already posted this on reddit, and people brought up this issue there 
too:

https://old.reddit.com/r/openstreetmap/comments/jk8gdr/high_quality_imagery_of_buildings_and/gahyzi
 


Also, the messages by "Mark Goodge" and "Ken Kilfedder" (spiregrain) didn't 
show up in my email. Why is this? (Is it because their "reply all" didn't 
include my address by mistake?) I'm still getting used to mailing lists.

The https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/ website sorts the mails into 
"threads". How does it which email goes under which thread? Currently, when I 
hit "reply all" it shows in the archive my email underneath the right thread. I 
am assuming it know based on who I sent the email to. However, if the same 
person were to reply twice to my email, and then I replied to one of their 
emails, how would the archiving system know which email I replied to?

30 Oct 2020, 18:37 by matkoni...@tutanota.com:

>
>
>
> Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by > talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> :
>
>> It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967 in NLS 
>> is available freely.
>>
> What are its licensing terms?
>
> "available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"
>
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

Sorry, I think my last message didn't get through because I didn't "reply all". 
(So it didn't show up in the archives). I'm still getting using to this 
"mailing lists" system.

Here is the NLS map:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=6&lat=55.25673&lon=-5.29584&layers=170&b=1
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30 Oct 2020, 15:47 by davefoxfa...@btinternet.com:

>
>
> On 30/10/2020 15:28, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>> It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967 in NLS 
>> is available freely.
>>
>
> Link to this on NLS?
>
> DaveF
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[Ken Kilfedder]

I've made extensive use of these tiles for numbering tasks in London E15 and 
E7.  But you are right that more up to date material is needed.  Bing gives me 
the more modern building outlines,  and I then do some spot checks of the 
NLS-sourced housenumbers when I survey the newer buildings.

But I don't recall any instances where NLS was 'wrong' for buildings that are 
still standing.  Maybe the odd 45 vs 45a etc.

---
https://hdyc.neis-one.org/?spiregrain
spiregrain_...@ksglp.org.uk

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, at 6:47 PM, Mark Goodge wrote:
> 
> 
> On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:
> > 
> > It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
> > in NLS is available freely.
> > 
> > What are its licensing terms?
> > 
> > "available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"
> 
> It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving 
> data from it.
> 
> I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for 
> wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey. 
> House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets 
> are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number 
> in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still 
> the same.
> 
> Mark
> 
> ___
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>

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Re: [Talk-GB] Holes in modern England?

[Jez Nicholson]

How many holes in Blackburn, Lancashire?

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, 18:36 Martin Wynne,  wrote:

> p.s. I've now discovered an overlay slider top-right which makes a bit
> more sense.
>
> The slider is almost invisible over the map in Firefox.
>
> Martin.
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[Mark Goodge]

On 30/10/2020 18:37, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB wrote:




Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:

It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967
in NLS is available freely.

What are its licensing terms?

"available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"


It's out of copyright, so there aren't any licensing issues in deriving 
data from it.


I would, though, be a little reluctant to use it as a basis for 
wholesale numbering without any supporting local knowledge or survey. 
House numbers can, and sometimes do, change, particularly when streets 
are renamed or rebuilt. So you can't be 100% certain that a house number 
in the 1950s is the same number it is now, even if the building is still 
the same.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[Russ Garrett]

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 at 18:38, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB
 wrote:
> What are its licensing terms?
>
> "available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/National_Library_of_Scotland

NLS maps (except for the ones where the copyright of the scans lies
with other parties, which does not seem to be the case in this
instance) are acceptable for use in OSM.

-- 
Russ Garrett
r...@garrett.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-GB]

Oct 30, 2020, 16:28 by talk-gb@openstreetmap.org:

> It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967 in NLS is 
> available freely.
>
What are its licensing terms?

"available freely" does not mean "compatible with OSM license"

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Re: [Talk-GB] Holes in modern England?

[Martin Wynne]

p.s. I've now discovered an overlay slider top-right which makes a bit 
more sense.


The slider is almost invisible over the map in Firefox.

Martin.

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[Talk-GB] Holes in modern England?

[Martin Wynne]

Anyone care to explain what's going on here:


https://geo.nls.uk/mapdata3/os/25_inch/holes_england/#holes_england_new/ol3

It displays the OSM basic map (without attribution), with some random 
blank patches (see for example a large area north-west of Oxford).


If you zoom in on the blank patches, they turn out to contain historic 
25"/mile mapping from the NLS.


Puzzled.

Martin.

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[Russ Garrett]

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 at 15:49, Dave F via Talk-GB
 wrote:
> Link to this on NLS?

I think it's the "OS 1:1,250/1:2500 1944-1969" layer:
https://maps.nls.uk/os/national-grid/

-- 
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r...@garrett.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[Dave F via Talk-GB]

On 30/10/2020 15:28, ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB wrote:

Hello,
It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967 in 
NLS is available freely.


Link to this on NLS?

DaveF

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[Talk-GB] High quality NLS imagery of buildings and HOUSENUMBERS (!) available in London (and Scotland). Create a tasking manger to add this?

[ipswichmapper--- via Talk-GB]

Hello,

As anyone mapping in the UK knows, in most areas housenumber coverage is 
abysmal. For example, germany has 14 million housenumbers, USA has 10 million 
and the UK has about 1.6 million as of 2018.[1]


Therefore, an open data source of housenumbers would make it significantly 
easier to add housenumbers. The only other method is surveys, which is slow and 
tedious and can only really be done over a small area. The UK government refuse 
to make this commercial[1][2] data available openly.

It has come to my attention that the "Town Plan" map from 1944-1967 in NLS is 
available freely.

Here is the tms if you want to test it in JOSM:

tms:https://geo.nls.uk/mapdata3/os/ldn_tile/{zoom}/{x}/{y}.png

This is just the tms for london and south east england, I do not know the TMS 
for the Scotland map.

This imagery extends to Brighton and Southend, although it does not provide 
housenumbers in those areas, only buildings. (However, for some reason 
housenumbers are present in the districts west of Brighton, e.g Worthing).

Due to it being an old map, lots of construction and destruction has taken 
place since then, so in some areas of London, this map will not be useful. 
However, many buildings have remained the same since then, and if that case 
this map provides a far, far quicker way of mapping housenumbers compared to 
going out and surveying them yourself.

If you want to see an example of this imagery being used, "Stratford New Town" 
in London used this imagery to map housenumbers.[1] Housenumbers in Edinburgh 
were also mapped using this NLS imagery.[2][3]

This should be very useful to many London mappers, and it would be great if 
people would start entering this data right away. 

However, I think the best way of getting all this data into OSM is by using a 
tasking manager. 

As of current, I don't think there is a UK tasking manager, I think it is worth 
it create one just for this task. 

The other advantage of a tasking manager is that you can mark "bad imagery", in 
other words, you can mark tiles where construction has taken place, making the 
map useless. This will make it more efficient to co-operate.

If OSM UK can be contacted about implementing a tasking manager for this, that 
would be great.

If this can be pulled off properly (tasking manager, outreach etc.), that would 
mean housenumbers in most of London!! This would genuinely be incredible.

Thanks,
IpswichMapper

[1]: 
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/business-government/products/points-of-interest
[2]: 
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/business-government/products/addressbase-premium
[3]: https://qa.poole.ch/addresses/
[4]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1341723829#map=13/51.5507/0.0030
[5]: 
https://www.ed.ac.uk/history-classics-archaeology/research/research-projects/mapping-edinburgh-s-social-history
[6]: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=13/55.9821/-3.2444

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