Re: [OSM-fi] Fixing broken and old-style multipolygons
Hi, Right, those seem to come from the notorious Corine Landcover import that was never completed nor reversed even it does have loads of topological errors. It does bring some colour to the map in about 25% of the Finnish territory, though. You may know that we do not have very good alternative sources for land cover imports because 71,6% of the area of Finland is covered by forests. Therefore our topographic map database does not even have a class for forests - they are background, not interesting at all. I had a look at some polygons and I do not know exactly how they should be corrected. For example relation https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1481481#map=8/62.740/25.565 It has an inner member https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/104644001 which somehow looks the same as https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/104646035 The inner polygon, that is coniferous wood, is a simple polygon with only outer ring. So as a stand-alone it could carry its own tags. But because the ring is re-used as a hole of the bigger mixed wood polygon it should not have tags. Instead the single ring coniferous area should be changed into a multipolygon relation that has only one member, and that new relation would get the coniferous tag. Is this correct? I really much doubt that anybody is interested in correcting the Corine polygons but people has not been too eager to revert the import either. Because of the colour, you know. But let's see how other members of the Finnish community react. I fear also that OSM will never get rid of the hand-written multipolygon relation system and because the reason for the trouble will not be fixed you have been forced to start your huge effort with fixing the broken data https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Area/The_Future_of_Areas. Good luck for you. Regards, -Jukka Rahkonen- Jochen Topf kirjoitti 2017-04-03 13:25: Hi! You might have seen that a few weeks ago I started a huge effort to clean up broken (multi)polgyons and old-style multipolygon relations (with tags on ways instead of on the relation) in OSM. You can find out more about this project on http://area.jochentopf.com/ . I am writing on this list here, because Finland is a major hotspot for those multipolygon problems. See these maps: http://area.jochentopf.com/map/index.html#7/61.923/25.378 http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=areas=28.31590=62.06443=8 This is probably due to some imported data. Is anybody here interested in this topic? How can we move this forward? Jochen ___ talk-fi mailing list talk-fi@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fi
Re: [OSM-talk] DB Performance (was: JOSM plugin to import GeoJSON?_
Hi, Stefan did not tell enough details for repeating the test exactly so my test set-up is probably a bit different. Program: GDAL 2.1.0dev, released 2015/99/99 on Windows, compiled with sqlite-3.10.2 and libspatialite-4.3.0a Test data: 100 points (2D) without attributes in shp format Storage: USB 2.0 drive, same disk used for both input and output Test script which is also testing a performance hint about turning synchronous write off: @echo %time% ogr2ogr -f gpkg plain_points.gpkg plain_points.shp @echo %time% ogr2ogr -f gpkg plain_points_nosync.gpkg plain_points.shp --config OGR_SQLITE_SYNCHRONOUS OFF @echo %time% ogr2ogr -f SQLite -dsco spatialite=yes plain_points.sqlite plain_points.shp @echo %time% ogr2ogr -f SQLite -dsco spatialite=yes plain_points_nosync.sqlite plain_points.shp --config OGR_SQLITE_SYNCHRONOUS OFF @echo %time% ogr2ogr -f SQLite -dsco spatialite=yes plain_points_nosync_gt.sqlite plain_points.shp --config OGR_SQLITE_SYNCHRONOUS OFF -gt 65536 @echo %time% Timings from the 5 runs: 1: 38 seconds 2: 38 seconds 3: 41 seconds 4: 37 seconds 5: 39 seconds Conclusions: 1) In my tests with my data, software, and hardware, there were no meaningful differences in the conversion speeds. Test data of one million points may be too small or then the conversion needs so little computing that I was actually measuring the I/O speed of the USB drive. 2) Stefan measured a creation time of 1 min 51 sec for the Spatialite. There must be something in that. Fresh GDAL uses a default value of 2 for -gt (not corrected into all GDAL documents) and using -gt 65536 did not make any difference with GDAL 2.1-dev. However, with explicit -gt 200 the timing was 93 second so it may explain most part of the slow result. 200 is what old GDAL versions use as a default value for -gt which makes 5000 transactions for one million points. Stefan, which GDAL version did you use? Could you make a new test with bigger -gt value and if needed, re-consider your conclusion "Spatialite is several times slower for creation time". Could it rather be "Transactions are expensive with SQLite, try to avoid making too many"? File sizes of my test data which had million points without attributes: shp: 35 MB gpkg: 92 GB splite: 130 GB I took also a sample of one million points from a real world dataset with attributes: three doubles, two dates, and two strings and that changed the numbers quite a lot: shp: 170 MB gpkg: 153 GB splite: 185 GB No huge differences is file sizes when data have attributes. -Jukka Rahkonen- Mike Thompson wrote 2016-03-23 03:26: This from the ogr2ogr documentation[1] may be relevant: "When writing into transactional DBMS (SQLite/PostgreSQL,MySQL, etc...), it might be beneficial to increase the number of INSERT statements executed between BEGIN TRANSACTION and COMMIT TRANSACTION statements. This number is specified with the -gt option. For example, for SQLite, explicitly defining -GT 65536 ensures optimal performance" Mike [1] http://www.gdal.org/ogr2ogr.html [3] On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Stefan Keller <sfkel...@gmail.com> wrote: Hi Frederik and Jukka Before I try give answers to performance let's be aware that we're (at least I am) speaking about a "desktop exchange format", not a storage fomat for GIS processing. But Frederik's comment piqued my curiosity and I did some quick comparison. I generated 1 mio. records in PostsGIS with this table CREATE TABLE benchmark (id serial primary key, txt varchar(32), geom geometry(point,4326) ); Then I used OGR2OGR to create the following three file formats: GeoPackage (using 73.9 MB disk space), Shapefiles (dbf/shp/shx 117 MB) and Spatialite (173 MB). Creation time of GeoPackage was 18 sec., Shapefile 21 sec. and Spatialite 1 min 51 sec. So, GeoPackage is a bit faster than Shapefiles and significantly (about 37%) smaller in size. Spatialite in fact consumes much more disk space than Shapefile and GeoPackage, and Spatialite is several times slower for creation time. This could explain the preformance issues of Spatialite Frederic mentioned. :Stefan 2016-03-22 13:56 GMT+01:00 Jukka Rahkonen <jukka.rahko...@latuviitta.fi>: Frederik Ramm remote.org [1]> writes: Hi, On 03/20/2016 10:56 PM, Stefan Keller wrote: > But Shapefile remains an oldtimer with more drawbacks than limited > field names; see [1]. > GeoJSON (ascii) and GeoPackages (binary) are formats which are more > suited for the job. > I still have hope that JOSM will be able to read those vector formats too. Frankly, whenever I venture into the brave new world of Spatialite, I come back to good old shape files after a while for performance reasons. I'm not sure if Geopackage has significant performance improvements over simple Spatialite but if it hasn't then my recommendation for simple GIS processing is certainly to stick with shape files for the time
Re: [OSM-talk] JOSM plugin to import GeoJSON?
Frederik Ramm remote.org> writes: > > Hi, > > On 03/20/2016 10:56 PM, Stefan Keller wrote: > > But Shapefile remains an oldtimer with more drawbacks than limited > > field names; see [1]. > > GeoJSON (ascii) and GeoPackages (binary) are formats which are more > > suited for the job. > > I still have hope that JOSM will be able to read those vector formats too. > > Frankly, whenever I venture into the brave new world of Spatialite, I > come back to good old shape files after a while for performance reasons. > I'm not sure if Geopackage has significant performance improvements over > simple Spatialite but if it hasn't then my recommendation for simple GIS > processing is certainly to stick with shape files for the time being - > despite all their shortcomings. Hi Frederic, I would like to receive some sample data, exact way to reproduce some of your ventures and cold numbers about the speed you have experienced. Spatialite does have it's limits but for plain selects with spatial and attribute filters it can well outperform both shapefiles and PostGIS. I keep most vector data for WMS services in Spatialite or GeoPackage due to the already mentioned and some other reasons: - supports long attribute names - supports strings longer than 255 characters - supports SQL - supports attribute indexes - much less encoding problems due to UTF-8 - one single file vs. a bunch of files in shapefile, perhaps even split to separate bunches for points, lines and polygons. For me SpatiaLite is a little bit slower than shapefiles if only spatial filter (BBOX) is used but usually faster if also attribute filters are involved, especially if more than one field is needed in filters (Shapefiles can be sorted by one attribute only). Of course spatialite must have indexes which suit the queries and when it comes to spatial index, the client must know how to utilize the table based R-Tree index. I also recommend to VACUUM once the database is ready to use. Many spatial operations are relatively slow in Spatialite and I don't usually utilize them on-the-fly with WMS server. Instead, I run the algorithm once and store the result into a new table because a few mega/gigabytes of additional disk space is not crucial on the server. However, such operations tend to be slow also if shapefiles are used as source data. Write performance especially with concurrent writes is another story. I am talking about read-only operations. I know that I am writing empty words as far as I do not include reproducible facts but I am willing to join to a controlled test if someone is organizing such. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] JOSM plugin to import GeoJSON?
Stefan Keller gmail.com> writes: > > To Ian and/or anybody > > I'm searching a plugin to import GeoJSON vector data into JOSM. > > I of course know Shapefiles but they are deprecated because e.g. they > cut-off field names at 10 chars. GeoJSON or GeoPackage are better > alternatives. > > Is this plugin still maintained: https://github.com/iandees/josm-geojson ? > Other plugins or alternatives? Perhaps ogr2osm still works http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ogr2osm -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Motion: Dedicated mailing list for abandoned railways
Hi, I suggest to make a new mailing list for those who want to talk about abandoned railways. I can see that such does not exist yet https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo. It has already suggested to use the Historic list https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/historic/ but I have understood that abandoned railways are special and therefore they deserve a dedicated list. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Any expert CC-BY -> ODbL negotiators?
Steve Bennett <stevagewp@...> writes: > > Hi all, I've been trying to convince the state government of Victoria (southeast Australia) to allow their VicMap raw data to be imported into OSM. It's currently CC-BY, and they've told me they're happy in principle for it to be used this way, but they're uncomfortable making the recommended statement "DELWP has no objections to geodata derived in part from Vicmap, either traced from Vicmap map products, or directly from spatial extracts, being incorporated into the OpenStreetMap project geodata database and released under a free and open license". Hi, Have you noticed that there are already quite many Australian datasets including Victorian Government data listed here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors#Contributor_specific_attribution_and_disclaimer -Jukka Rahkonen ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] What extra permissions are needed to include CC-BY data in OSM
Simon Poole simon@... writes: CC-BY 4.0 contains the following (4.b): if You include all or a substantial portion of the database contents in a database in which You have Sui Generis Database Rights, then the database in which You have Sui Generis Database Rights (but not its individual contents) is Adapted Material; and Adapted Material is essentially a derivative Work, or using ODbL terms a derivative database. The CC-BY terms would however seem to make it impossible to create an ODbL collective database from an OSM dataset including CC-BY material. Hi, I do not quite understand what I'd have if I import OSM data into one table and CC-BY 4.0 data into another table in the database. If the whole database is then Adapted Material and under CC-BY but not its individual contents, does it mean that I can truncate OSM tables and deliver the database as such? Or if I import CC-BY and OSM data into the same table can I do delete from table where source='OSM' before delivering that as a CC-BY 4.0 database? -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-talk] Steve's better map
Hi, Steve Coast promised to make the best address map of the world by himself if he will not be elected into the board of the OSM Foundation: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2014-October/002713.html https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2014-October/002761.html If I don't get elected then I'll continue focusing on address data outside of OSM. It's frankly the easier route but it would be a real shame if OSM isn't the venue to make it happen. I have been thinking that perhaps that would be the best route anyway even if Mr. Coast gets elected to the board. By my own experience about the addresses in OSM they feel fuzzy and somewhat difficult to utilize outside OSM. Addresses given to building polygons are quite simple to move to centroids of the polygons for making a point layer of all the addresses but for example finding the municipality or city for the address points is tedious because administrative units are defined as relations which are also somewhat fuzzy and all too often broken. With a dedicated database and tools for addresses the route could really be easier and faster and I would not feel ashamed at all while importing addresses from this master address database into OSM later. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Where did we get 500000 new users?
Hi, There is a big jump in the number of OSM users between 20th and 21st of July, why? See http://osmstats.altogetherlost.com/ -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Using geocoding results in an app
Marcel Kühn kuehn.marcel@... writes: Hello everybody, I've been looking through the archive of the mailing list, yet haven't found a definite answer to this. I'm building an app in which the users can fill in address information for their own or other locations. This address information needs to be converted to lat / loon coordinates, which are then saved in the database. I've currently planned on using mapquest for the geocoding, which uses OSM data. So, here's my question: Do I have to make the geocoded data (addresses + lat / lon coordinates) available as a download? If so I'm afraid I have to look for other ways to geocode my data / ditch the app since I guess couldn't afford the possible traffic generated by those downloads. Any help is appreciated! Thanks, Marcel It is hard to find definitive answers from this list but I have understood that the current interpretation is that your database would be derived from OSM and thus you must publish the data you collect under ODbL. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Converting .osm file into shape file or mapinfo table
Hermann Peifer peifer at gmx.eu writes: Below is what I would do on my MacBook. More info at http://www.gdal.org/drv_osm.html Hermann $ wget http://download.geofabrik.de/europe/liechtenstein-latest.osm.pbf $ mkdir outfiles $ ogr2ogr outfiles/ liechtenstein-latest.osm.pbf The aim was to get MapInfo files, thus ogr2ogr -f MapInfo file output.tab input.pbf -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Attribution
Steve Coast steve@... writes: But that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re speaking here about the simple ask, that if you use OSM you please say clearly on the map that it is OSM. You’re getting a great dataset, for free, under an open license, that millions of people are contributing to. We’re not asking for $100,000 license fees, we’re just asking that you say who we are. It’s the ultimate human need; I was here. I did this. OSM is such a strong project that there should be no need to exaggarate. We have 1.6 million registered users [1] and of those a bit more than 30 has made the last edit into the database [2]. The number of active members is growing steadily and linearly [3]. And by looking at the list of Top users editing over the past in [1], imports has nowadays a huge importance for the project - I was here, sitting in my own armchair. I did this import. I agree with the attribution to OSM, we have written rules and all players should follow them. When looking the attribution from opposite side, according to our contributor terms all imported data come OSM data as soon as it is stored into the database and we have no need to mention the origin of data. However, we voluntarily do that at least to some extent, which is fair [4] [5] [6]. [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/stats/data_stats.html [2] http://osmstats.altogetherlost.com/ [3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats [4] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue [5] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors [6] http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Attributing OpenStreetMap at Mapbox
Richard Weait richard@... writes: I feel that the attribution that you currently use provides insufficient recognition for OpenStreetMap. Do you feel that the attribution page should provide better recognition for OSM that for the other data providers? OSM data is probably the biggest data source worldwide so it could be reasonable. However, in Finland and Norway, for example, MapBox may utilize more data from the national mapping agencies (or maybe not, I do not know). Would that change the situation - localised ranking of data sources needed? -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Azimuth measurement
François Lacombe francois.lacombe at telecom-bretagne.eu writes: Is there a solution to that issue ? Measuring geographic north directly isn't so simple I think. Walk 10 or 100 meters or one kilometer to the direction where the feature which you want to align guides you, measure another point with GPS and there's an azimuth line. The longer the line the better is the accuracy. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Isn't All That Open, Let's Change That and Drop Share-Alike
Simon Poole wrote: One thing I would like to hear about in this context of this discussion, are examples of concrete use cases that are not happening because of share alike and that are in general things that the community would like to support (so not evil corp can't take the data now and keep it). Concrete in the sense that they are uses that really would happen if share alike would be dropped, not we can build a straw man that shows how bad share alike is. Hi Simon, We have considered that we cannot use OpenStreetMap as a background map in any of the applications where users are sending location aware information back to administration. For showing existing data it would be OK but not for gathering data from users because user could locate a place corner of Annankatu and Merimiehenkatu http://osm.org/go/0xPLoLTa0?m= by looking at the OSM map. The interpretation of ODbL is that this location is derived from OSM data and thus the database of the administration would become ODbL. It could be OK in some use cases but some data are confidential and ODbL is not an option. Therefore we do not use OSM at all. We use our own services and Google Maps. This is a concrete example. However, changing the interpretation of ODbL into georeferencing locations by looking at OSM map does not yield a derivative database would not necessarily change the situation in Finland any more because since 2012 most raster and vector data from the National Land Survey of Finland have been open data under attribution-only license. Because of this using the data is simple. This has also helped OSM because raster maps and aerial images can be utilized for digitizing and vector data imports have started this year. Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Isn't All That Open, Let's Change That and Drop Share-Alike
Simon Poole wrote: Two remarks/questions: - is the derived data actually being publicly used? Sometimes is, sometimes not. If it is publicly used then it may be that only part of the attributes are public. Something that is not publicly used right now may come public in the future but still not with all the attributes. With the maps from the National Land Survey there is no need to worry about all that. Unfortunately there is not yet infrastructure for making the use of NLS maps as easy as OSM or Google and that is a trouble for small municipalities, for example. - Off Topic: the use doesn't seem to be compatible with what is generally known about googles ToS (naturally I assume that is just a question of money) I haven't heard about any troubles with Google's ToS and I know that lawyers have been used for checking that. Don't know about money. -Jukka Rahkonen- Simon ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] where to buy custom, large print OSM maps?
Mikel Maron mikel_maron at yahoo.com writes: anyone doing this? * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 at mikel s:mikelmaron http://www.geofabrik.de/maps/printed.html -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Attribution Requirements
Simon Poole simon@... writes: Am 10.01.2014 07:15, schrieb Clifford Snow: I like the Mapbox solution the author mentions of putting a box on the map to take you to another page. I realize that unless the user clicks on the link, they will never discover that OSM contributed to this product. Since OSM may be only one of many contributors this make sense considering that there is only so much screen real estate available. Clifford, to make this very short: this is NOT acceptable. See the last board minutes. And I'm very tired of people trying to weasel around the absolute minimal requirements we pose on reuse of OSM data. Minutes from October, 2013 is the latest in page http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes#Licensing_Working_Group Do yuo mean that? -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Attribution Requirements
Simon Poole simon@... writes: That are not the last board minutes as you know, there are: http://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Board_Meeting_Minutes_2013-12-10 It is not my pleasure to ask stupid questions but I had a black out even you clearly wrote See the last board minutes. I apologize. Good thing is that now there is a link to just 2013-12-10 minutes in the archive which makes things even more clear for the future readers. Regards, -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] License review request: Sardinia ad-hoc authorization
Jonathan Harley jon@... writes: On 23/11/13 10:45, Simone Cortesi wrote: On Sat, Nov 23, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Paul Norman penorman@... wrote: The mentions of the OpenStreetMap Foundation in the document are confusing, as to my knowledge no one from the OSMF is involved in or a party to this agreement, but I don't think that alone would prevent the use of data. I asked them to licence the data to OSMF, which is the copyright holder of the eponymous project. It doesn't make a difference to this, but actually, the OSMF is the publisher of the database, not the copyright holder. Copyright of each contributor's contributions remains with that contributor. This is why the requested attribution is © OpenStreetMap contributors and not © OSMF. You probably knew this, and this is just nit-picking, but this is the legal-talk list so we ought to be accurate. I feel that OSMF is more than just a publisher of the database because we all have granted OSMF a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable licence to do any act that is restricted by copyright, database right or any related right over anything within the Contents, whether in the original medium or any other. These rights explicitly include commercial use, and do not exclude any field of endeavour. These rights include, without limitation, the right to sub-license the work through multiple tiers of sub-licensees and to sue for any copyright violation directly connected with OSMF's rights under these terms. To the extent allowable under applicable local laws and copyright conventions, You also waive and/or agree not to assert against OSMF or its licensees any moral rights that You may have in the Contents. http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Contributor_Terms -Jukka Rahkonen- Jonathan. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Timezones (was: Deleting data)
I'd go the other way and abolish Winter Time. ;-) No DST = dark summer evenings. Not nice! Going on topic, not sure if something like time zones belongs in OSM. Would it not be better to use a more specialised web service to look up time zones for a given lat/lon? I'd prefer to minimise overloading OSM with things which are not on the ground data. For one thing, it means bigger planet files and more demands on software to extract the data you want. A handful of polygons is no trouble to handle in the GIS world but our self-made problem is that we must convert nice simple polygons into heavy relations. Perhaps area primitives will come true one day and give some help https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/The_Future_of_Areas. -Jukka Rahkonen- Nick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] About CC-4.0 and ODbl
Rob Myers rob@... writes: On 03/10/13 04:32 AM, Jonathan Harley wrote: On 02/10/13 18:59, Rob Myers wrote: Is it possible to have a BY-SA 4.0 Produced Work? It's possible to give a produced work derived from OSM any license you like (if that's what you mean?) so long as it retains OSM's attribution. Including all rights reserved. But doesn't BY-SA claim to cover the database rights? Doesn't that clash with the ODbL? Hi, Pekka was asking about initial import if the source vector data is published as CC-BY-4.0. Do you have opinions about that? -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Making iD the default editor on osm.org
Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org writes: (It would be cool if the make square tool would reject the making square of very un-square things like roundabouts, but all our other editors will happily square a circle for you so it would be a bit unfair to demand different from iD I think.) At least for me the make square tool in P2 adjusts only lines which already make an almost right angle and that is indeed cool. But that is just a detail and not a strong reason for keeping P2 as a default editor. Myself I continue to use P2 because I can configure several custom base layers and select them with function keys and because for me P2 draws vectors faster when panning and zooming (Windows 7, Firefox v. 23.0.1) but iD is also good enough. Both editors have their own strong points and I do not hate either of them. I like Merkaartor and JOSM too but perhaps I am on a wrong list with my positive feelings. Well, I admit that the Java applet was not an especially reliable editor. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Clarifying Geocoding and ODbL
Robert Whittaker (OSM lists robert.whittaker+osm@... writes: I'd still very much like to hear of potential use cases, where regarding the inputted search data plus returned coordinates as a derivative database (which may be part of a collective database with other proprietary data in it) would actually cause problems. I feel that this requirement prevents state and municipality agencies in Finland from using OSM maps as base maps in their web applications. There are often some feedback mechanism in the applications so that users can send a message about data error or then they announce that something in broken or something has happened in some location. Usually user does not know the coordinates but only the address or that something happened in the corner of A- Street and B-Street. Uncertainty about if all the administrative data which have some connection with the user feedback would become share-alike if user locates the place by clicking on top of the OSM base map makes administration to use Google and other other base map providers instead. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] iD Editor live on OpenStreetMap
Tom MacWright tom at macwright.org writes: Filed an issue for that idea at https://github.com/systemed/iD/issues/1472 - in the future, please file issues on GitHub rather than posting to the mailing list, so that they're seen and actionable by developers. Hi, If ideas are filed directly into GitHub they won't be seen and discussed by other users. Mailing lists may feel oldfashioned but they still have some good points. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Geospatial PDF maps from OSM data
Frans Thamura frans at meruvian.org writes: Hi jukka Any idea to make the map also in svg or eps? No idea about SVG of EPS output at all. I was just testing the much improved PDF driver in the GDAL development version. GDAL does not write SVG at all but it is using either libpoppler or libpodofo for producing PDF and I guess that they can write SVG as well. For GDAL it may not make so much sense because I do not know if there is any standard method for georeferencing SVG. Cloudmade seems to deliver something like that, though, and GDAL can read it but not write http://www.gdal.org/ogr/drv_svg.html http://developers.cloudmade.com/wiki/vector-stream-server/Documentation I consider that GDAL offers good tools tp begin with for someone who wants to make a web service or a standalone application for authoring feature rich maps in PDF format. For the end user the work flow is much too complicated, but it is doable as the tutorial shows. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Geospatial PDF maps from OSM data
Hi, I wrote a tutorial about using some new features of the next GDAL version 1.10. It is a GDAL tutorial but the examples are using just OSM raster and vector data so they may interest also this audience. PDF is not anything special and we do already have PDF export option in the OSM main map but these recipes bring also coordinates and OSM tags into the PDF map and users can themself decide what OSM features to add on top of the base map. The tutorial: http://latuviitta.org/documents/Geospatial_PDF_maps_from_OSM_with_GDAL.pdf Sample map in PDF format: http://latuviitta.org/documents/Geospatial_OpenStreetMap_vector_and_raster_map.pdf -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Is there a PD part in OSM?
Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdreist@... writes: I wonder if data you download now or did so in the past from OSM servers can be used as PD data. There are some users who have publicly declared that they consider their contributions to OSM to be in the public domain. For simplicity I'd like to restrict this question to users who have either made this declaration in their user description or have linked their wiki account from their user description (i.e. it is clear, which OSM username the declaration was made for and that the user was the owner of this account). Is it possible to download this data from OSM servers (or mirrors/extracts/elaborations from this) under a cc-by-sa or ODbL license and still consider it PD due to the dual licensing, the user has expressed he wishes his data to be under? There are no such data in OSM. PD declaration in the user page is just a manifest but it does not have any real meaning. Discussion about PD was directed into a special legal-general mailing list in October, 2008. http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-general Best place to read about OSM and PD is still the legal-talk archives from the the same time, October 2008 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2008-October/thread.html -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Réf.: Re: All you've ever wanted to know about the french cadastre
Philip Barnes phil at trigpoint.me.uk writes: I would prefer to keep the source tag with the object. Within a changeset I will often have some roads where source is GPS, have traced some buildings from bing, and added a few pub/shop names where source is survey Changeset info can be obtained only from native OSM services. If someone downloads shapefiles from Geofabrik or Cloudmade or OSM data in GML format from my WFS server the changeset tags are a bit difficult to obtain. If such data contain osm_ids then it is possible to find the history of the objects from OSM services but I do not think it is compulsory to include osm_ids in WFS services or derived ODbL databases. Users can delete or edit the object source tags but perhaps there are still better possibilities that they remain in ODbL chain than the changeset source tags. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Street/POI Index from OSM data
Alex Rollin alex.rollin at gmail.com writes: Hello, I am rather new to OSM data. I've enjoyed doing edits on the map and now I'd like to start learning how to arrange it on a printed page. I know there are lots and lots of tools out there. Could I receive a few recommendations for getting some text data out? I was thinking I might need to use Osmosis. Some pointers would be very helpful. I would like to: Select a bounding box (I can produce lat/lon) Get a list of street names' Output a CSV file (or other text file) Select a bounding box (I can produce lat/lon) Get a list of POIs Output a CSV file (or other text file) For these I would also like to be able to get any other attributes/ keys like description text or other things. Thank you to each of you for all the work you do! Hi, Sorry for a bit delayed answer but GDAL/OGR OSM driver developer had to do a couple of fixes for making this task to perform well. So you can do all that with GDAL OSM driver and SQL query language. Output can be despite CSV any other format that is supported by GDAL/OGR for writing. http://www.gdal.org/ogr/drv_osm.html http://www.gdal.org/ogr/ogr_formats.html Install a very fresh GDAL development version, about rev. 24970 or higher. For Windows you can get it from gisinternals http://www.gisinternals.com/sdk/ You want to query streetname from osm lines and name and probably some other attributes from osm points and from a limited area. It is possible but quite slow to create such CSV file directly from OSM data file that can be in osm-xml or pbf format with following command ogr2ogr -f CSV streets.csv finland.osm.pbf -sql select distinct name from lines where highway is not null order by name -spat 24.821 60.123 25.259 60.317 However, it is faster, especially if you want to do more queries, to convert OSM data first into Spatialite database. Here is a quite optimised command to use as a template ogr2ogr -f SQLite -dsco spatialite=yes finland.sqlite finland.osm.pbf --config SQLITE_SYNCHRONOUS OFF --config OSM_COMPRESS_NODES YES -progress This conversion takes a few minutes with 130 MB finland.osm.pbf file. Then you can repeat the first streetname search and it will be pretty fast ogr2ogr -f CSV streets.csv finland.sqlite -sql select distinct name from lines where highway is not null order by name -spat 24.821 60.123 25.259 60.317 The poi file can be created in a similar way. Let's say you want to get all the amenities and names for those. The command is ogr2ogr -f CSV poi.csv finland.sqlite -sql select name, amenity from points where amenity is not null order by amenity -spat 24.821 60.123 25.259 60.317 Note 1. Read the OSM driver manual page. The second command does not work before editing the defauld osmconf.ini file so that amenity is included in the points layer attributes. Note 2. There is a little bug in ogr2ogr CSV driver that may prevent creating a new csv file if there is already another CSV file with an uncommon structure in the same directory. The one-column CSV file that was created in the first example has such a structure. Delete the file or rename it with another extension before running the second example. Regards, -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Visualizing OSM relations with GDAL and OpenJUMP
Hi, I noticed that I can get all kind of OSM relations on a map rather simply by using the new OGR OSM driver http://gdal.org/ogr/drv_osm.html, Spatialite database for storing the converted vector and OpenJUMP with DB Query plugin for showing the results on a map. I wrote a short how-to with a few screen captures http://latuviitta.org/documents/OSM_relations_visualized_with_GDAL_and_OpenJUMP.pdf There might be already utilities for visualizing any kind of OSM relations but even so, one more cannot make much harm. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Custom Imagery
Alex Rollin alex.rollin at gmail.com writes: I am looking into how to use custom imagery for tracing. Can anyone point me at a process, and how-to? I was looking at the Digital Globe site, thinking of buying some images. What would I do with them to load them into JOSM? It appears there is no open background image and add to map dialog. Could you tolerate using Merkaartor? It has a pretty good support for all images supported by GDAL. It can do on-the-fly reprojection too. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] osm2pgsql hstore (was: Wind turbines no longer rendered on mapnik layer)
Jochen Topf jochen at remote.org writes: Much too slow. Requiring joins on every query is not a good idea. And having the right indexes is important. You can't just index everything and hope it would do the right thing. (The most important index btw is the geometry index not the attribute indexes, although having the right attribute indexes here or there can help.) I sent by followup accidentally to osm-dev list. The main message was that perhaps there is a need to do some tests before saying if hstore or joined tables are faster. Here is a Spatialite database for testing http://latuviitta.org/documents/relation_test.zip First trials suggest that joined tables with proper indexes are not at all slow and compared with the standard tables created by osm2pgsql the query times can be several times faster. This is not a fair comparison because osm2pgsql tables are missing the attribute indexes but so they normally do in the Mapnik chain. Query times vary, so try yourself. Data is osm_lines from Berlin from some months ago. By the way, recent development around GDAL suggests that Spatialite may be faster with spatial and attribute queries than PostGIS. Improvements in GDAL Spatialite driver made Mapserver about 20 times faster than it used to be and now Spatialite is faster that PostGIS and even shapefiles. query from osm_line from osm2pgsql === select geometry, highway from osm_line where highway='primary' 0.531 seconds query from joined tables === select * from line_geometry, tags where tags.tag='highway' and tags.value='primary' and tags.join_id=line_geometry.osm_id 0.059 seconds -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] osm2pgsql hstore (was: Wind turbines no longer rendered on mapnik layer)
Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org writes: Hi, On 02/16/2012 07:25 PM, Graham Jones wrote: This reminded me of a question I have been meaning to ask for quite a while - is a database generated by osm2pgsql with an hstore expected to perform similarly to one without? I never ran one with hstore when I think of what this must mean for the database engine, and storage space, then I shudder and would not be surprised by the factor 5 you mentioned. How about doing it with relations? Let the importer program create four tables osm_point osm_line osm_polygon osm_relation These tables would each have two attributes: Geometry and osm_is. Geometries in the osm_relation would be of type geometry collection, that is, a collection of whatever, and it could hold for example the tranport route relation with the route and bus stops and everything in one PostGIS geometry object. Then there should be one or four tables for tags (everything in one table or split to suit the geometry tables). The three attributes would be osm_id, key, and value. Osm_id would be used as a foreing key for joining geometries and attributes. If osm_id can not be guaranteed to be unique then there should be point_id, line_id, polygon_id and relation_id added to suitable places. Every attribute would be indexed. For Mapnik use where all that is needed is to do simple SQL selects. I guess that this database would be faster to query than hstore even it also contains all the tags. It might be faster for Mapnik than the current tables with extra wide attribute schema because now attributes are not indexed at all (or are they?). SQL queries according to tags and values or even with a part of the tag and value strings would be easier to do than from hstore. People could enhance attributes for some special uses by converting max_speeds and other values which are actually measures from strings to integers or doubles etc. This option is so obvious that I believe that someone must have tried it already. It would be nice to hear about experiences. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] proprietary keys and values, machine readable vs. humans
Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org writes: Hi, On 01/24/2012 04:27 PM, Jukka Rahkonen wrote: We will see much more proprietary keys in the future because people are importing huge amounts of spatial data from external sources. Maybe we should simply stop them from doing that? Much of that data is hard or impossible to update by OSM contributors but new updates will be offered from the original sources. That sounds like a perfect reason to not import. Topological data and landuse data are some examples. Corine land cover will be updated this year, 9 gigabytes of topological vector data from the National Land Survey of Finland will be free under attribution-only license in May and so on. All that should not be in OSM. Myself I agree with you. But lots of people consider that the Mapnik slippy map in www.openstreetmap.org is the main product of OSM and they like that the map is better with more colours. We cannot really say that data that are needed for colouring the map should not be imported into the OSM database without giving an alternative. Right now I remember only two common examples about combining OSM data and some other data outside the main OSM database for rendering. First is about height contours and another one is about using OSM coastline shapefiles. Let's take Corine an an example because even it is a fine dataset, it is made for different purpose and in OSM it can only serve for giving some colour to the maps. If it should not be imported into the OSM database then what would be a better way for utilising Corine data? I would really like to see the Corine data somewhere else than in the main OSM database because I am interested in the true OSM data created by OSM users. I do not have any use for Corine land cover data but I cannot avoid downloading it over and over again every time I am fetching a new OSM country extract. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] proprietary keys and values, machine readable vs. humans
Pieren pieren3 at gmail.com writes: On Tue, Jan 24, 2012 at 12:42 PM, Jonathan Bennett openstreetmap at jonno.cix.co.uk wrote: We have (or at least, should have) a simple principle in OSM: Ignore what you don't understand. I could add another one : delete what is beyond understanding. Because your principle is against another one : verifiability. Because your principle - if it is tolerated - might end up with elements tagged with dozen references to external applications and the readable tags will disappear in the number. We will see much more proprietary keys in the future because people are importing huge amounts of spatial data from external sources. Much of that data is hard or impossible to update by OSM contributors but new updates will be offered from the original sources. Topological data and landuse data are some examples. Corine land cover will be updated this year, 9 gigabytes of topological vector data from the National Land Survey of Finland will be free under attribution-only license in May and so on. In such situation people start thinking about adding source-IDs as OSM tags in a hope that some part of the data could be more or less automatically updated on the OSM side later. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [OSM-talk-nl] Dutch Cadastre released all topo vector, raster and toponym data under CC-BY
Stefan de Konink stefan at konink.de writes: OpenStreetMap NL was in Dutch news today being one of the first receivers of the TOP10nl dataset of the Dutch Cadastre. Since 1-1-2012 the Cadastre releases its data under the CC-BY license, they even take contributions back. The data itself is in the highest precision usable between scales 1:5000 and 1:25000. TOP10NL is gathered from aerial photography, digital measurements in the field and existing data. We already contacted what would be their 'ideal' contribution form, going beyond a simple email contribution with this object is wrong. The National Land Survey of Finland will also publish whole lot of data (raster maps, aerial images, laser scanning data and the whole topographic database in vector format) with attribution-only licence in May 2012. I have been working with the vector database and I know it has nearly 500 thematic layers and it takes around 10 gigabytes in zipped shapefiles. It is at least 50 times more than we have now in OSM. I can't yet imagine what it will mean for the OSM project in Finland. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-fi] vuosaaren bbox
Ilpo Järvinen kirjoitti: On Fri, 9 Dec 2011, Ari Moisio wrote: Ikuisuusprojektini OSM-kartat loadstonelle jatkuu, kiitokset tähänastisesta avusta:-) Jouduin pilkkomaan Helsingin alueen kaupunginosiksi ja sain tehtyä bboxit kaikista muista paitsi Vuosaaresta josta en löytänyt boundarya mistän karttapohjasta. Ehtisikö joku vilkaista minlat, maxlat, minlon ja maxlon -arvot joiden sisään vuosaari jää? Kyllä sillä nykyään pitäis olla boundary... lisäsin sen joku kk-pari sit kun huomasin että puuttu Mikä sinun mielestäsi muuten on Vuosaaren kaupunginosa? Kuvassa http://latuviitta.org/documents/Kaupunginosia.png näkyy Kaupunkimittausosaston pienaluejakoa tuolta suunnalta, mitkä niistä ottaisit mukaan Vuosaareen? -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk-fi mailing list talk-fi@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fi
Re: [OSM-fi] vuosaaren bbox
Ilpo Järvinen kirjoitti: On Fri, 9 Dec 2011, Jukka Rahkonen wrote: Ilpo Järvinen kirjoitti: On Fri, 9 Dec 2011, Ari Moisio wrote: Ikuisuusprojektini OSM-kartat loadstonelle jatkuu, kiitokset tähänastisesta avusta:-) Jouduin pilkkomaan Helsingin alueen kaupunginosiksi ja sain tehtyä bboxit kaikista muista paitsi Vuosaaresta josta en löytänyt boundarya mistän karttapohjasta. Ehtisikö joku vilkaista minlat, maxlat, minlon ja maxlon -arvot joiden sisään vuosaari jää? Kyllä sillä nykyään pitäis olla boundary... lisäsin sen joku kk-pari sit kun huomasin että puuttu Mikä sinun mielestäsi muuten on Vuosaaren kaupunginosa? Kuvassa http://latuviitta.org/documents/Kaupunginosia.png näkyy Kaupunkimittausosaston pienaluejakoa tuolta suunnalta, mitkä niistä ottaisit mukaan Vuosaareen? Onko tää joku kompakysymys? :) Mannerta sisältävät vanhan helsingin rajan sisipuolella, vartioharju-mellunmäestä poikki. Ne pitäis olla kyl osmissakin? http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1764263 Ei ole kompakysymys, mutta Helsingin maalaiskunnan Vuosaaressa syntynyt vaimo ei ole kotona ja minä olen maalta. Siis Uutela, Aurinkolahti, Nordsjön kartano, Niinisaari, Mustavuori, Keski-Vuosaari, Rastila ja Meri-Rastila? Tuosta minun kuvani pohjalla olevasta Helsinki Region Infoshare -paikasta ladatusta aineistosta ei sitä saa selville. Niin se näyttää täälläkin olevan http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Helsinki_neighborhoods-fi.svg Eli Vuosaari on Helsingin maalaiskunnasta vuonna 1966 kaapattu alue, mutta kuuluuko siihen myös pala Sipoosta kaapattua aluetta Mustavuoressa? -Jukka- -- i. ___ talk-fi mailing list talk-fi@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fi
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
Václav Řehák rehakv01 at gmail.com writes: A fixed application would be one that does not use the OSM tile servers. The tile usage policy gives the example of distributing an app using tiles from tile.openstreetmap.org as an activity which is forbidden without prior permission from system administrators. Well, and what is your recommended way to do the mapping then? Perhaps to download the very fresh OSM data as vectors? Something like the data layer we have in the standard OSM web map. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
Václav Rehák rehakv01 at gmail.com writes: Perhaps to download the very fresh OSM data as vectors? Something like the data layer we have in the standard OSM web map. Do you have real experience with this? In a way, yes. I am mostly playing with tradional GIS and our national data but the following link will send you all the osm_lines from a 10 km by 10 km bounding box. Data comes from the OSM Mapnik schema and all the tags attached to the lines are included. See elements like tows:tags ref=3071, name=Ritvalanraitti, highway=tertiary, surface=paved, z_order=4 /tows:tags http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=wfsversion=1.0.0request=GetFeaturetypename=lv:osm_lineBBOX=346700,6780800,356700,6790800 You do not need to download the whole Czech data if you just want to check a couple of streets. Ten by ten kilometers in my example seems to be from an area that does not have many highways but it should give you an idea. This query will send all the osm_lines from the centre of Helsinki. http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=wfsversion=1.0.0request=GetFeaturetypename=lv:osm_lineBBOX=385000,6671000,386000,6672000 This hundred by hundred meter box should give almost immediate response. http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=wfsversion=1.0.0request=GetFeaturetypename=lv:osm_lineBBOX=385000,6671000,385100,6671100 I am updating data only every now and then but the database could be updated with the Minutely Mapnik system and vectors would never be more than a couple of minutes old. XML is not so interesting to look at but this OpenLayers example shows just similar XML vector data on top of a raster map. Use the Delete Feature tool and you will believe that they are vectors and nothing that is burned into the raster image. http://openlayers.org/dev/examples/wfs-snap-split.html I do not want to advertise WFS over native OSM services, it just happens to be a service I know somethign about. My message is that there can be other, maybe more flexible ways for utilising OSM data than just those boring tiles. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Daily stats report stopped?
Have the statistics stopped? The title of the page seems to be OpenStreetMap stats report run at Fri Sep 09 00:00:12 +0100 2011 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Extract a polygon into a polygon filter file format
Pieren pieren3 at gmail.com writes: On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 2:23 PM, Kirill Bestoujev bestoujev at gmail.com wrote: I think it is better to try to persuade mappers from those countries to create the border in way everyone does. No. If we created this super-relation in France, it is because the original single relation became simply too big for normal editions. The country boundary is very long and complex (following natural features). If you want an approximate polygon, you can download the one published by geofabrik for instance. If you want a very precise polygon following exactly the border, we have a python script which is doing what you want with super-relations. Please contact the french mailing list or the french dev-fr ML for that. If relations are such that osm2pgsql can handle them and convert into polygons it might be easier to catch them from the Mapnik PostGIS schema. For example the natural=water, name=Saimaa multipolygons (total number or polygons 68, all together have 4262 holes, one polygon alone has 490 holes in it, and the whole dataset is having 157551 nodes) can be drawn on a map from with this request http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/ms_ows?REQUEST=GetMapSERVICE=WMSVERSION=1.1.1WIDTH=563HEIGHT=437LAYERS=sea,borders,osm_alueetTRANSPARENT=TRUEFORMAT=image/pngBBOX=-369151.98300283286,6597900.0,1511076.628895184,8057331.444759207SRS=EPSG:3067STYLES=sql=(tags @ 'natural=water') AND (tags @ 'name=Saimaa') and data can be downloaded with this http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/ms_ows?service=wfsversion=1.0.0request=getfeaturetypename=osm_alueetsql=(tags @ 'natural=water') AND (tags @ 'name=Saimaa') The latter request will take some time, perhaps 30 seconds. I suppose this is not yet as easy to do from the native OSM database but for sure sometimes in the future it will. Some kind of direct access to polygons would be the first step and there has been some discussion about it in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:The_Future_of_Areas ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] using osm data and other sources in a project
James Livingston lists@... writes: If you can't produce separate tiles, because rendering requires accessing both databases at once, then you essentially have combined the two databases together into a new one and are then rendering based on that. So would assume in this case you'd have to distribute the combined database (or the non-OSM one and tell people to put them together as the modification).-- James There is another world behind the tiles which is much more interesting and flexible. Look at the image http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/ms_ows?REQUEST=GetMapSERVICE=WMSVERSION=1.1.1WIDTH=563HEIGHT=437LAYERS=sea,borders,osm_viivatTRANSPARENT=TRUEFORMAT=image/pngBBOX=-369151.98300283286,6597900.0,1511076.628895184,8057331.444759207SRS=EPSG:3067STYLES= The blue sea is coming from one database, borders from another and red OSM motorways from a third. All with one request and end user cannot separate the sources from the png image. Let's assume that sea and border data are not allowed be added to OSM or delivered as ODbL. Should we tell WMS users that they are not allowed to do the WMS request as LAYERS=sea,borders,osm_viivat but they must make three separate requests and combine the result http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/ms_ows?REQUEST=GetMapSERVICE=WMSVERSION=1.1.1WIDTH=563HEIGHT=437LAYERS=seaTRANSPARENT=TRUEFORMAT=image/pngBBOX=-369151.98300283286,6597900.0,1511076.628895184,8057331.444759207SRS=EPSG:3067STYLES= http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/ms_ows?REQUEST=GetMapSERVICE=WMSVERSION=1.1.1WIDTH=563HEIGHT=437LAYERS=bordersTRANSPARENT=TRUEFORMAT=image/pngBBOX=-369151.98300283286,6597900.0,1511076.628895184,8057331.444759207SRS=EPSG:3067STYLES= http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/ms_ows?REQUEST=GetMapSERVICE=WMSVERSION=1.1.1WIDTH=563HEIGHT=437LAYERS=osm_viivatTRANSPARENT=TRUEFORMAT=image/pngBBOX=-369151.98300283286,6597900.0,1511076.628895184,8057331.444759207SRS=EPSG:3067STYLES= ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Moving Map on Netbook?
Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org writes: Hi, I'd like to use my netbook to show a moving map. Assuming that I somehow get gpsd hooked up and delivering position reports[*], what software can I use? There has been done some work for turning OpenJUMP into a moving map application. The basic work was done by Edgar Soldin last year and it sort of a tutorial is at http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/jump-pilot/index.php?title=GPS_Plugin The base map can come from any source supported by OpenJUMP: georeferenced rasters images, WMS server, shapefiles or a database. I have used it with a combination of OSM vectors drawn from PostGIS on top of a base map rendered with a local WMS server (Mapserver). Tiles are not supported because OpenJUMP does not support them. Map is very flexible because user can select free set of rasters, WMS layers and vectors for the project and adjust the visibility of each layer. Data does not need to be only OSM data. Or perhaps other way, OSM data must be translated into a raster map or some GIS format first. I have been using osm2pgsql for that. When data is imported with the hstore option I can get what ever OSM data I want on a moving map by creating layers with SQL query. Moving map does not look very good at the moment because base map and GPS location cursor are updated together. However, I have scheduled a little project with Ede so that location cursor could be updated independently from the base map. That would be approximatele one weeks work. OpenJUMP is not at all nice to use on the move because of the user interface which is planned for desktop GIS. I have tried to use it with Windows tablet but most of the icons are muct too small to be usable. But OpenJUMP is GPL and Java so here might be people capable to do further development. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] I want my access back
Robert Kaiser kairo@... writes: BTW, if you would want to change OSM to be PD, you probably would need to wipe the map clean and restart from scratch, as most contributors want an attribution to the project at least - and that's what's not guaranteed with current CC-BY-SA due to not applying for databases appropriately in some jurisdictions. Theoretically we wouldn't need to guess if most OSM contributors want an attribution or not. There is the alternative Agree, and I consider my contributions Public Domain. Those who have selected this do not care about attribution. However, only a few sysadmins know how many of us have selected this option because no statistics have been published. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Slim mode in osm2pgsql and out of memory error
Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog at gmail.com writes: On 9 June 2011 08:38, Saphy Mo saphyfar at yahoo.com wrote: The file is the same Europe.osm.bz2 directly downloaded from geofabrik. I will decomprese it and try to see the order of Nodes, Ways and relation. But the error happens while pending_ways query. It occurs to me you can see this during import, by seeing which counters go up first. The osm2pgsql wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql#Optimization says it is smart to increase the value of checkpoint_segments. I have a feeling that it is compulsory, at least I was not able to import the Finnish excerpt at all with the PostgreSQL 9.0 default value. But perhaps you have increased it already. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Is mail address legal@... valid?
Michael Collinson mike@... writes: Hi Jukka, Yes, it is still in use and we read everything and we we do try to respond. Have we missed something? Mike License Working Group Hi, It is just about a proper way of attributing OSM in a Web Feature Service (WFS). I posted a question first to this mailing list on May 16th and then to the members of License Working Group on May 20th and another try on June 1st. Not so hurry to get an answer, I just wanted to know that the question has arrived and the working group is aware about it. The service itself is up and configured now so that the WFS service metadata includes links to OSM license page. I have also a separate web page describing the service and OSM license in mentioned there as well with. Service metadata is always available from http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=wfsversion=1.1.0request=getcapabilities and it contains AccessConstraints section with the following text Contains Map data from OpenStreetMap contributors http://www.openstreetmap.org/ under CC-BY-SA license http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ Additional OpenStreetMap constraints http://www.openstreetmap.orgcopyright?copyright_locale=en Contains spatial data from the National Land Survey of Finland (NLS) under NLS open license http://www.maanmittauslaitos.fi/ilmaisetaineistot The data from the service do not necessarily contain any hint about the origin of the data or the licenses. In WFS users are supposed to chech such things from the service metadata. However, WFS services can be used without studying the metadata throughly. An example of direct data access and the output: http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=wfsversion=1.1.0request=getfeaturetypename=tows:osm_polygonmaxfeatures=1 -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-legal-talk] Is mail address le...@osmfoundation.org valid?
Hi, The page http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Groups#Licensing_Working_Group suggests that the licensing working group members should be reading posts sent to a group address le...@osmfoundation.org. Is that address still in use? -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-fi] Kuntien rajoista
Ari Moisio kirjoitti: Tervehdys Olen rakentelemassa lähinnä näkörajoitteisille sopivaa karttasysteemiä joka OSM:n kartta-aineistoon ja Loadstone-ohjelmistoon (www.loadstone-gps.com). Tarkoitus olisi tehdä kartat suurinpiirtein kartta per kunta mutta nyt tuli tenkkapoo koska läheskään kaikkien kuntien rajoja ei löydy OSM:n tiedoista. Tarkkaa polygonia en tarvitse, bbox riittää hyvin. Löytyykö täläinen tieto helposti jostain vai onko rajat katsottava jostain kartasta. Joillain kunnilla löytyy toki way tai useampi joka kiertää kunnan rajoja ja is_in-tageillakin löytyy jotain mutta esimerkiksi Uurainen jää näillä konsteilla aika pieneksi:-( Kuntien rajat saa palvelusta näillä pyynnöillä GML2-muodossa: EPSG:900913 (Google-projektio) http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=WFSversion=1.0.0request=GetFeaturetypename=municipalitiessrsname=EPSG:900913 EPSG:4326 (WGS84) http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=WFSversion=1.0.0request=GetFeaturetypename=municipalitiessrsname=EPSG:4326 EPSG:3267 (ETRS-TM35FIN, Suomen kansallinen suositeltu projektio) http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=WFSversion=1.0.0request=GetFeaturetypename=municipalitiessrsname=EPSG:3067 Palvelun metatiedot: http://188.64.1.61 MML:n lisenssi on käytännössä sama kuin CC-BY, eli vapaampi kuin OSM:lla. Heti, kun Kosmo GIS -ohjelmasta on ladattavissa versio 2.0.1 sivustolta http://opengis.es niin sillä voi tehdä helposti ja suomen kielellä muun muassa sellaisia hakuja, joista on esimerkki tiedostossa http://188.64.1.61/Kosmo_WFS_ohje.pdf. Uusi Kosmo-versio ilmestyy todennäköisesti viikon sisällä. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk-fi mailing list talk-fi@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-fi
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copyright and License in WFS service
National Land Survey wanted only to have this text in the AccessConstraits Contains spatial data from the National Land Survey of Finland (NLS) under NLS open license http://www.maanmittauslaitos.fi/ilmaisetaineistot The license in English is here http://www.maanmittauslaitos.fi/en/node/6567 I included also this text in the AccessConstrainst about OSM data Contains Map data from OpenStreetMap contributors http://www.openstreetmap.org/ under CC-BY-SA license http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ Additional OpenStreetMap constraints http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright?copyright_locale=en ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-legal-talk] Copyright and License in WFS service
Could you tell what is the proper way to credit OpenStreetMap in a WFS service? I am planning to start keeping my WFS server solidly up and I would like to have a few OSM datasets in the service. In the beginning they would be the osm_point, osm_line and osm_polygon layers which are the standard PostGIS layers created by osm2pgsql with the hstore option for keeping all the tags. In addition the service would contain some data from the National Land Survey of Finland (NLS). The NLS datasets have a more permissive license than OSM data, NLS open data license which is attrirution only and pretty close to CC-BY. WFS standard defines the AccessConstraints element in the service metadata and I have sketched to have there a text like + Access Constraints == Contains Map data from OpenStreetMap contributors http://www.openstreetmap.org/ licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 licence (CC-BY-SA) http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/ Check also additional OpenStreetMap constraints http://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright? Contains map data from from the National Land Survey of Finland licensed under the NLS open license http://www.maanmittauslaitos.fi/ilmaisetaineistot + Would this be enought? WFS service metadata can be obtained by doing a GetCapabilities request http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=wfsversion=1.1.0request=getcapabilities However, it is possible to download data from the service without ever doing the GetCapabilities request by sending http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?SERVICE=WFSVERSION=1.1.0REQUEST=GetFeatureTypeName=osm_pointmaxfeatures=20 In this case the OSM data have been imported with osm2pgsql and after that there are not much left in the data to tell that they come originally from OSM. Is it enough to use the standard WFS way and include access constraints in the service metadata where users can read them if they wish or should there be some other means to make it compulsory to read the access constraints before downloading data? -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Unlicensed use of the logo in iPhone app?
What I appreciate is that our logo is honouring the traditions. See the old ArcView logo http://thm-a03.yimg.com/nimage/62c0d25d4cb10b38 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] PD aspiration statistics
Hi, The licensing working group has been discussing about a thing called PD aspirations https://docs.google.com/View?id=dd9g3qjp_113gtw62wdf Excerpt from the minutes 5. OpenStreetMap PD-Contributor Terms Freimut Kahrs wrote to us concerning an issue that has recently emerged on German and international blogs and mailing lists, suggesting that mappers should be able to choose between two different Contributor Terms offered by OSMF: 1. CT-ODbL (the current 1.2.4 Contributor Terms) 2. CT-PD , which releases personal contributions into public domain and allows direct use as such by end users of the OSM geodata set. A discussion concluded that there are disadvantages. It was also felt that, while attractive to a segment of the community, it goes against the 2007 consensus of choosing the latter of going PD or go something like CC-BY-SA but written for data. We noted that we are already giving an opportunity to folks to indicate their PD aspirations. It would need work on whether it is legally feasible and would also require changes to OSM's end user licensing, i.e. not just ODbL. Are there plans to publish some day the statistics about how many users have been willing to indicate their PD aspirations and how wide a segment we are talking about? Without statistics the bare opportunity to indicate PD aspirations is not very much to be happy about. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
Cartinus cartinus at xs4all.nl writes: On Monday 18 April 2011 04:47:30 Steve Coast wrote: Today I watched a few people sign up for OSM and they all ticked the PD box without even looking at it, it was very entertaining. And hereby the expected anti-PD campaign is officially started. I would guess that lots of people are also selecting ODbL + CT without looking at those and the anti-PD campaign has started a long, long time ago. But it would be really entertaining to see statistics about how many people have checked the PD tick box. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] PD tick box
Fabio Alessandro Locati fabiolocati at gmail.com writes: Am I worng or the PD-box is for statistical use only? It may be there for statistics but no numbers have ever been published. The other possible reason for the existence of the tick box is to make PD-minded people feel happy and be quit. Somehow similar case than the creation of the legal-general mailing list. PD-box does not have any practical effect, all data that is uploaded into OSM database is under the same OSM licence. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping huge lakes as coastline
Teemu Koskinen teemu.koskinen at mbnet.fi writes: I converted a few of the biggest lakes in Finland a few years ago to coastlines, and they worked fine, until last year some other user converted them to multipolygons with natural=water -tags. He also splitted the biggest lake (Päijänne) in pieces, which created arbitrary lines across the lakes at random where the lake was divided to different polygons. The biggest lakes in Finland have tens of thousands (or even hundreds of thousands) nodes and a LOT of islands, so it's not practical to represent them as (multi)polygons IMO. It is not practical, either, to represent them as coastlines. For example osm2pgsql is not importing coastlines into PostGIS at all but users must use the processed land polygons as shapefiles for rendering these coastline lakes. One may say it works fine with Mapnik rendering because of this shapefile workaround. Some could call it as a dirty hack. For example, it gets complicated when somebody wants to add tags for the lakes and islands. By the way, i checked that the biggest lake polygon in the data of the National land survey of Finland is the lake Saimaa, and it has exactly 287273 vertices and more than 5000 islands. It is a bit heavy to handle in PostGIS and Oracle Spatial and with GIS programs but not at all impossible. There is a wiki page about the future of areas in OSM. Handling big lakes is one more thing to be discussed there, see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/The_Future_of_Areas In the data ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Mapping huge lakes as coastline
Jukka Rahkonen jukka.rahkonen at latuviitta.fi writes: By the way, i checked that the biggest lake polygon in the data of the National land survey of Finland is the lake Saimaa, and it has exactly 287273 vertices and more than 5000 islands. It is a bit heavy to handle in PostGIS and Oracle Spatial and with GIS programs but not at all impossible. Sorry, I made a wrong query and the correct number is 820357 vertices. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Spanish official land register (Catastro) changes its license
jynus jynusx at gmail.com writes: I think it is an announcement with the same impact as the one from the French Cadastre or Ordinance Survey permissions, maybe even better, as we have directly permission to get and use the vectorial data, updated every 3 months. We are yet greatly shocked on the Spanish mailing list, but if anyone is interested we will start working on coordinating there and on the wiki. We have yet to review the exact conditions and how to conform with them, and also see how are we going to merge it with existing data. I am pretty sure that Catastro is doing good job also with the updates. Perhaps we should start seriously to think about alternative ways for utilising foreign data together with OSM data and not just import and merge everything that is available. It can be pretty hard to update the imported, merged and perhaps user enhanced data with the updates coming from the original data provider. But if the data will not be updated OSM will have a partly enhanced but also partly outdated snapshot of data. The aim should be up-to-date and user enhanced data. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Tag for true OSM data?
Hi, I am mostly interested in truly original OSM data created by our contributors. Now when folks are more and more importing data into OSM it is getting less usable for me. For example if I want to use Corine landcover data I prefer using it from the original sources and not pushed through OSM. Could it be reasonable to have some true_osm=yes tag for the original OSM features? -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Tag for true OSM data?
M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdreist at gmail.com writes: 2011/3/31 Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org: Having said that, there's the important issue of human contributors adding value to the imports: adding metadata, removing stale data, improving geometry. Those are real human contributions that would not have occurred if it weren't for the import happening first. +1 And with the time, the original imports will more and more (given an active community) fade towards cloudbased human mapping. I also don't share the fear that there will on the long run a growing amount of imports but rather guess that imports will become less, because it becomes always more complicated to import stuff, when half of it is already present in OSM, while it was easy to import into an empty map. Data which are significantly enhanced by the users (I know, it is hard to define what is significant) would be valuable for me as well. Basically I do not care about rendering but I have an interest in plain data. I am after interoperability without a need to import everything into OSM first. I would like to do spatial queries from the database and through web services and see what features and what tags OSM users have recorded around a given place and do comparisons with data from other data sources. But I fear no single tag nor a simple tag combination can ever be used for finding the real user contributed data and I will need to preprocess OSM data somehow. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Licensing Working Group
Grant Slater writes: Not true. ODbL licensed data *can* be forked at any time without asking anyone for their blessing. I don't see how you come to the conclusion otherwise. The Licensing Working Group consulted with a lawyer during drafting of the ODbL to ensure that the ODbL licensed content would be forkable. What would the proper way for a fork to deal with those data publishers who want to be attributed? Would it be enough for the fork maintainer to have a link to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors? Regards Grant ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] georeferencing OSM
Łukasz Stelmach stlman at poczta.fm writes: Hello. This has been discussed[1] some time ago but the answer is somehow unclear to me. I understand that EPSG:900913 is (may be?) a crappy projection[2]. However, I still need a map of Poland at zoom 6-8 warped to EPSG2180. How to use geotifcp (how to prepare metadata) to embed appropriate information in an image exported from OpenStreetmap? [1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.gis.openstreetmap/19958 [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Exporting_calibrated_maps I would capture first the image of your area by using native EPSG:900913 projection with gdal_translate and WMS driver as described at the bottom of the document http://gdal.org/frmt_wms.html. As a result you will have on a disk a geotiff file which is simple to re-project further into EPSG:2180 with gdalwarp. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] How to remove my data since 2006
Maarten Deen md...@... writes: CTs will allways be per account. There is nothing linking seperate accounts together or even to an actual person. There is only an e-mail address. Any one person can also create multiple accounts and choose to accept or not accept the CT for his currently exisiting account as he wishes. That brings to my mind that how we can ever say in a reliable way who is an active contributor as defined by the CTs An active contributor is defined as: a natural person (whether using a single or multiple accounts) -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CT clarification: third-party sources
Francis Davey fjm...@... writes: On 13 December 2010 22:46, Anthony o...@... wrote: It's unclear to me whether a 2/3 majority of active contributors have to vote yes, or merely 2/3 of some unspecified quorum of active contributors. It is extremely unlikely that any English court would think so. The phrase a 2/3 majority vote of active contributors would be understood in its natural way, namely that 2/3 (or more) of all active contributors must vote in favour of the change. If there was to be a quorum then the terms would say so. I do not really believe that the turnout percentage in any OSM poll would reach 66.7 percent, even if we count just the active contributors. It is nowadays a good percentage even in the election of the parliament. In year 2007 in Finland the turnout seemed to be 67.9%. And because all active contributors for sure would not vote for Yes it would mean in practice that OSM license could never be changed. Myself I have been thinking that the 2/3 majority means the share of those who vote. Obviously it would be better to write it clearly into the CTs how we want it to be interpreted and not to ask it afterwards from any English court. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] CT clarification: third-party sources
Frederik Ramm frede...@... writes: Hi, On 12/14/10 10:28, Jukka Rahkonen wrote: I do not really believe that the turnout percentage in any OSM poll would reach 66.7 percent, even if we count just the active contributors. The turnout percentage in the kind of poll mandated by the CT will be 100%: An 'active contributor' is defined as [someone who] has maintained a valid email address in their registration profile and responds within 3 weeks. Right, I apologize. I was remembering that we have about 15000 active contributors but actually we have just that amount of potentially active contributors. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Microstation import
Ed Loach ed at loach.me.uk writes: If ogr2osm doesn't recognise it, perhaps you can use ogr2ogr to convert it into something that ogr2osm will recognise: http://www.gdal.org/ogr/ogr_formats.html Ogr2osm is a python script that is using ogr so it should support all the same formats that ogr2ogr. A try with ogrinfo may still give some more information, as well as reading the document http://gdal.org/ogr/drv_dgn.html. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Spam in OSM forum?
Hi, I suppose that this last forum posting in this thread is pure spam, with all those smileys with links to various web places. http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=10078 -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] So how *do* you get GPS waypoints into OSM?
Steve Bennett stevagewp at gmail.com writes: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/767553/OSM/waypoints/waypoints.zip Try WP1.gpx - WP12.gpx http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/JRA/traces I added the same fake two node track to each file somewhere from the area of the first WP file. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Historical Data in OSM database
Lester Caine lester at lsces.co.uk writes: In the past we have been told If you want it - Add it - other people do not have to use it. I just think this is another case of that which we need to agree methods for since at least a few people DO want to share the information. If I'm mapping on some historic side port of the data why would I then bother adding current stuff back to the main one ... I'd just be happy with the one I was using ... This historical information thing is another example, in addition to more and more geospatial data that could be imported into OSM, that perhaps importing everything into a huge OSM trunk is not the only or even the best way for combining data from different sources. For example the Finnish prototype of Inspire map portal can already show about 80 map layers together without any imports between the databases. All the layers (except the two OSM layers) are coming from the original data providers and combined at the client. Soon some of the layers will be downloadable as vectors or rasters through the same porta. The result is by no means nice cartography but still already usable for comparing datasets. For example the coverage of the official highway data and OSM, Digiroad and OpenStreetMap in the Transport networks category. The portal is at http://www.paikkatietoikkuna.fi/web/en/map-window ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] SotM11 will be held in Denver.
SotM11 is planned to be arranged just after the FOSS4G conference. I do not believe it is an accident because Steve Coast and Mikel Maron are members of the FOSS4G Local Organizing Committee (http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/FOSS4G_2011_Denver_LOC). It can be a good idea if people can spend the whole week and take part in the both conferences. Or then somebody could have a speech in both conferences. After all, we are not so far away from the FOSS4G folks and software. OSM was very visible in FOSS4G this year but also we might have something to learn from the paleogis side. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] legal FAQ license
Frederik Ramm frede...@... writes: I think you have understood this all right. In my eyes there's a wide band between clearly non-copyrightable edits on one side (which we could legally keep in OSM even if the person who added them said no - but we're unlikely to exercise that right) and edits that are clearly works on the other (which are thus copyrightable in some countries). In between there may well lie some edits that are extremely unlikely to qualify as a work in terms of IP law, but where we would still remove them if the person who added them were to ask us to do it. For these, I think the opt-out mechanism is morally acceptable. And of course we are using the same rules for taking and giving, or? Same amounts of data we consider non-copyrightable and keep therefore in the database can be taken out from the new ODbl-OSM database as if they were PD? And even store masses of separate extracts into one database because that's what we would do ourselves? ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Voluntary re-licansing and CT 1.1
Ed Avis e...@... writes: Perhaps there should be a meta-contributor-terms where you agree to accept future contributor terms proposed by the OSMF. Then there wouldn't be the need to re-ask everybody each time the contributor terms change. Insurance companies would love this idea :) However, I consider that by accepting Contributor Terms the mapper makes a binding contract with OSMF and that can be changed only if both OSMF and mapper accept it. License can be changed later because that possibility is written in CT but not CTs. Now we have perhaps 20 or 30 thousand contracts with CT 1.0 but apparently in the future contibutors will be asked to accept CT 1.1. What is the plan with those CT 1.0 mappers? Will they just continue to contribute under CT 1.0 or will they be asked to accept CT 1.1 before they can continue? For me the changes between 1.0 and 1.1 look negligible but perhaps having both CT 1.0 and CT 1.1 users could make things even more garbled. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Checking if I understand correctly...
Ed Avis e...@... writes: What I meant to say was: under these contributor terms, OSM is not compatible with itself! Although the OSM project licenses its data under CC-BY-SA or under ODbL, it would not accept such licences from others. Whether this really matters, or is just an obscure point of principle, is open to debate. But it's certainly the case. It is hard to believe that we want to build such a system but if that is the case then it will matter once someone takes some OSM data and lets own users to do updates and inserts. Isn't for example OpenAddresses such a project? ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-legal-talk] Voluntary re-licansing and CT 1.1
Some of us have pressed a button and accepted contributor terms v. 1.0. However, there seems to be a draft for version 1.1 https://docs.google.com/View?id=dd9g3qjp_81272pvt54 Does it mean that the voluntary re-licensing campaign is chiefly an exercise and everybody will need to accept version 1.1 once it is ready? ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-legal-talk] Attribution in digital services like WFS
Hi, It is easy to deliver OSM vector data through WFS service as gml http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=wfsversion=1.1.0request=getfeaturetypename=osm_polygonmaxfeatures=20 or as json if gml does not feel comfortable http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=wfsversion=1.1.0request=getfeaturetypename=osm_polygonmaxfeatures=20outputformat=application/json What is hard is to give attribution and show the license. Of course I can add Access constraints element to the service metadata ows:AccessConstraintsData from OSM, license CC-BY-SA/ows:AccessConstraints and users can read it at any time from the service with http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=wfsversion=1.1.0request=getcapabilities But is that enough? WFS service can be used without ever reading the capabilities document and user may receive tons of digital OSM vector data without really knowing where those did come from and what is the license. I can add a new field into all the layers, attribution and populate it with some text. That way the attribution could be glued into each feature, but I am not sure if I can force WFS users to fetch that attribute even that way because WFS allows users to request just a subset of attributes. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-legal-talk] Natural person in CT 3
Clause 3 in CTs says: An active contributor is defined as: a contributor natural person (whether using a single or multiple accounts) This aims, I suppose, at giving only one vote for each natural person. How could this be checked? The real identity of contributer has never been asked, all we have is the user name - email combination. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Partnership between OSM and local government?
Aun Yngve Johnsen lists at gimnechiske.org writes: You mean, how would the city council benefit apart from the fact they are participating in a free, powerful routable map with loads of features? Free worldwide distribution, availability on several types of equipment. Software to make everything from local restaurant guides, to routable maps with custom warnings. Besides there are thousands and thousands of volunteers doing the work for them, without getting paid, demanding no more than access to the finished works. There can be a little problem if municipalities are also selling their geodata. For sure municipalities can use dual license for the original data but what happens if they want to update their own data with OSM user contributions? Would the whole updated dataset become share alike as well? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can OSM sources be public domain CC-0(zero)?
Simon Biber wrote: On Thu, 2 September, 2010 11:22:54 AM, andrzej zaborowski balrogg at gmail.com wrote: Besides, there's nothing in the Google Terms of Service which says you may not make use of the facts you learn by using this website. That'd just be silly. Not to mention unconscionable, and therefore unenforcible. Google does say that certain information displayed is proprietary and may not be provided to others. any unauthorized copying or reproduction of the content in any form, or by any means, is not permitted Did anybody read the discussion in http://www.edparsons.com/2008/10/who-map-is-it-anyway/ The question was not about copying or reproducing something that exists on a map. It was about using an existing map or satellite imagery for locating some new feature that does not appear on the map. This is how the discussion started. The question by Richard Fairhurst (2008 October 9) Interesting (I know, I know, I should get a life). But if the nice chaps at Richmond tell you there’s a recycling box at the corner of Park Lane and Park Road, and you use Google (map or satellite) to determine that said corner is at 51.425297,-0.334935, isn’t that a derivation? Because it would be really, really cool if it wasn’t. The answer by Ed Parsons (2008 October 9) @ Richard, OK so this is really cool then, as I can use Google maps to determine the actual location, as it both does not occur on the original map or at Richmond’s website. It is the product of my interpretation in this case based on local knowledge and the imagery therefore it is not derived ! Niklas is having very analogous use case. He took a photo and he knows he was standing at the corner of Park Lane and Park Road. If he then looks at Google maps and takes the coordinates for geotagging his photo, Ed Parsons seems to think that the geolocation of the photo is not derived. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Can OSM sources be public domain CC-0(zero)?
Niklas Cholmkvist towardsoss at gmail.com writes: Hello, When I map, sometimes I add sources to my contributions. It could be a bus route relation where I may add the GPS trace I took while riding the bus as the source for the route. Other times if I name a street I may use a geotagged/geolocated photo of the street sign as a source.(thus proving that the name is the same as the one shown on the street sign) In some cases where I want to fine-adjust the location of a geotagged photo using for example the rendered OSM Mapnik images, will part of my photo(or the photo in whole) become CC-BY-SA-2.0? (this question arised after I considered making all my geotagged -in EXIF- photos public domain CC-0-1.0-Universal) Hi, If you do not want to start a new war, take the coordinates from Google Earth/Maps. Judged by the blog http://www.edparsons.com/2008/10/who-map-is-it-anyway/ Google will not rise a hullabaloo against you. But if you want to have fun check the coordinates from both OSM and Google (and Yahoo and Bing as well) and use the average. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Culvert and average contributor
Pieren pieren3 at gmail.com writes: It seems that culvert=yes is ambiguous. It can be a ford or applied on the road. I'm also in favour to replace culvert=yes by tunnel=culvert, bridge=culvert or ford=culvertIt has also the advantage of simplifying the tag management in applications (can just handle tunnel=* or bridge=* or ford=*). Pieren And it can also be considered how ofter culvert is needed. Normally, if a ditchcrosses a way it does it through a culvert, at least here in Finland, and everybody knows it without splitting the waterway and adding culverts or layer definitions etc. But for sure there are culverts which are worth having their own tags. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Future relicensing in the contributor terms and data imports
James Livingston li...@... writes: On 23/08/2010, at 4:22 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Not only the Contributor Terms - the whole project is. Data importing should always be the exception and not the rule. But is it though? I guess that's the nub of the issue with data imports and licensing - some people are against data imports and some people like them. I remember that Frederik has used a word interoperability in some of his mails. Most OSM folks seem to think that interoperability means either a) transparent tiles and OpenLayers or b) vacuuming all the geodata with somehow suitable license into OSM. I believe there could be also other ways. It is understandable that road data are imported into the main OSM database because we have lots of our own highway data with better and more up-to-date knowlegde about road attributes. Road data must also be noded for making it suitable for navigation and OSM data model with the spaghetti topology and all the data on a one single layer suits this use. However, some of the data which have been imported could as well be used from somewhere else, like from a separate OSM-Import database or from an external service. Use of SRTM countour lines in OpenCyclemap, Openmtbmap and in some other places is one (only?) good example about using non-OSM data together with OSM data without imports. It is not really a pleasure to try to follow the rules given in documents like http://inspire.jrc.ec.europa.eu/documents/Network_Services/INSPIRE%20Draft%20Technical%20Guidance%20Download%20%28Version%202.0%29.pdf Still I think that it is better this way than by having a huge Central Spatial Data Infrastructure database in Brussels. Perhaps we will also start thinking some day that all the data which are possible to import into OSM do not need to be imported but they can still be utilised. I believe that this was what Frederik meant, not that we should map everything by ourselves. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Is CC-BY-SA is compatible with ODbL - a philosophical point
andrzej zaborowski balr...@... writes: That's what I think the plan is. However it is made very difficult by the fact that those data providers most likely chose their SA licenses in order to be able to use any improvements made on top of their data, which we are planning to very soon make impossible for them. So we now approach them and say Hello, can you please grant all these.. perpetual.. irrevocable.. etc. rights to something called OSMF, and by the way you won't be able to use OSM data any more because our new license is not compatible with yours. It may be hard to give something back from OSM to many of the data providers. Public domain sources like USGS cannot take the updates because they are funded for producing public domain data (http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2010-July/020016.html). Ordance Survey can't take updates because it is also selling licenses for commercial use. Thus both the European and American mapping agencies have one thing in common, they can't accept updates from OSM community but they need to build their own community feed back systems. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch for Newbies
Graham Jones grahamjones139 at googlemail.com writes: Hi, I think improving the documentation for new users (and experienced ones too!) is a really good idea - I think we lack information for the casual new user. The disadvantage of directing this group to Potlatch is that they need to understand quite a few concepts before they can really do anything (nodes, ways, tags, the fact that there is no definitive list of approved tags etc. etc.). This mail from developer mailing list is also worth reading: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2010-August/020239.html An excerpt from that mail says (please read the whole message still to understand what is the meaning of 'simple editor') The OSM data model is complex and sophisticated, and any attempts at a 'simple' editor will simply mess up other peoples work. Especially when you start touching relations, which seeing as relations themselves involve nodes and ways that's pretty much any editor. OSM statistics at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats are showing that the number of active OSM contributers stopped growing about one year ago. Perhaps one reason for that is just the complex and sophisticated data model, together with growing interest of creating relations and editors which cannot hide the complexity yet. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Valid geometry for closed ways
Frederik Ramm frederik at remote.org writes: Hi, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote: If you want polygons to behave as in paleo GIS, you should refer to the industry standars. Specifically, to http://www.opengeospatial.org/standards/sfa , version 1.2.1, page 26: Agree with all, except that, for simplicity, we tend to make an exception in . ++ | +--+--+ | | | | | | | +--+--+ | ++ . As well as in ++---++ || a || | b | || |+---+| | | +-+ That is, the inner ring touching the outer ring in more than one point. That situation is a bit complicated to handle with OGC simple features. It would mean drawing an U-shaped b and a box shaped a and combining then into an OGC multipolygon with two outer rings. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Valid geometry for closed ways
Sebastian Klein bastikln at googlemail.com writes: I remember someone said that Multipolygon would be misnomer. But according to this specification, it fits quite well, doesn't it? All the polygons can be called multipolygons. Polygon is a simple variant of a multipolygon, and it can hold only one outer ring. It can still contain however many inner rings, even zero. It is often good for GIS users if in the dataset only real multipolygons are presented as such because sometimes some spatial functions do not accept multi-outer-ring things. But yes, OSM multipolygon relations which are most often one-outer-ring-with-holes can be called multipolygons also in the GIS world. -Jukka- Sebastian ___ talk mailing list talk at openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] collection/street relation: which one to use?
Anthony osm at inbox.org writes: So I prefer to add the street name to the street (as name) and addr:street to the building/shop etc. I think for now that's probably the best solution. And just hope there aren't too many instances of Main Street on the addr vs. Main St on the way. And do some sort of nearby search. Unfortunately, that means I can't do a simple SQL query to find out what street has the most addresses on it in the OSM database. OTOH, I could probably come up with a fairly simple SQL query to answer How many addresses are there on Broad Street in Philadelphia, especially if I'm willing to approximate Philadelphia as a rectangle. Something like this might work with data imported with osm2pgsql select count(*) from osm_polygon opoly, osm_line oline where oline.highway is not null and opoly.building is not null and oline.name=opoly.addr:street and [distance from street to buildings is less than x meters]; However, the distance query is not very simple for the whole world data, see http://postgis.refractions.net/ pipermail/postgis-users/2009-February/022648.html There is no need to approximate Philadelphia as a rectangle, you can use the whole geometry in spatial intersects filter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] ODbL, CTs and tracing GPS tracks
TimSC mapp...@... writes: Hi all, Apologies if this has been raised before, but I was wondering about GPS track data and licenses. Presumably we are using public GPS trace data under CC-BY-SA. By the way, it would be helpful to clarify that on the wiki. I'll ignore the problem of tracing other people's tracks and the resulting relicensing issues. At the moment, I am considering how GPS tracks work with the CT and ODbL (assuming they too will be relicensed). I have understood that uploaded GPS track logs that we have now are effectively public domain. They are facts (even they do not allways tell the truth) and they miss all the creativity so they are not copyrightable. Everybody can use at least individual tracks for any purpose. At the moment only OSM map data are under CC-BY-SA but track logs are free facts. Anybody can download the original track logs, trace from them and create a commercial or public domain map from those. I believe that after the possible license change there would not be any difference between GPS track logs and other kind of contributions and they would all be covered by ODbL and contributor terms. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] ODbL, CTs and tracing GPS tracks
80n 80n...@... writes: Jukka Rahkonen wrote: I have understood that uploaded GPS track logs that we have now are effectively public domain. They are facts (even they do not allways tell the truth) and they miss all the creativity so they are not copyrightable. Is this a correct understanding of what a fact is, from a legal point of view? A telephone number is a fact in the sense that it is it's own identity. A copy will be identical. And this seems to be the basis of much US case law in this area. On the other hand GPS tracks are made up of information, but they are samples of a paths and no two sets of GPS tracks will ever be identical. The stuff of GPS tracks is very different from the stuff of telephone numbers.Before using the GPS tracks are facts meme we really should have a better understanding of what constitutes a fact, in legal terms. I can't say how facts look like from the legal point of view, or if such exist at all. In real life many of us consider also unrepeatable approximations as facts, like how much we weight. Completely defined facts like telephone numbers are rare exceptions. Most measurements are more or less inaccurate. See for example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision GPS track logs recorded with recreational GPS units are approximations of the route, accurate to something like +/- 10 meters. I wouldn't say that due to this inaccuracy track logs are creative work. However, I wouldn't be surprised if they still are from the legal point of view. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] ODBL vote (was Re: Enough is enough: d isinfecting OSM from poisonous people)
Sam Vekemans acrosscanadatrails at gmail.com writes: hi, after checking the 'in addition make pd' box, is there a way to 'uncheck' that box if we change are mind at a later date? say, if i discover more information that would make me change my mind. (i can with google photos, as an example) thanks, sam Does the phrase you consider your edits to be in the Public Domain has any real meaning? Can somebody download data which are only edited by PD minded people from the main OSM database and use those for any purpose? If the answer is yes then changing your mind should only be possible for new edits and by creating a new user account. Somebody may already believed you and started to use data as PD. However, I suppose that checking the PD box is only a declaration and will not really allow anybody to use parts of the OSM database as PD. Thus it would not harm anybody if you could change your PD considerations whenever you want. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] OpenJUMP supports live GPS with OSM data now
Hi, OpenJUMP GIS (http://openjump.org/) is about to get a brand new live GPS extension. I did some testing with the rc4 version and wrote some lines with screen captures into https://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/jump-pilot/index.php?title=GPS_plugin Some features: - Unlike GPSD based solutions like JOSM livegps plugin, OpenJUMP GPS extension works with Windows - Nothing OpenStreetMap specific included. OpenJUMP can open shapefiles and read data from PostGIS database. OSM shapefiles from Geofabrik or Cloudmade can be used as such, as well as OSM data imported into PostGIS database with osm2pgsql. Also the new 'tags' column of hstore datatype is supported and therefore all the OSM tags can be accessed by OpenJUMP if the PostGIS import has been done by using the -k option - OSM can combine OSM data with anything else that can be converted into shapefiles or PostGIS, including data from all the various OSM forks we may have :) - Georeferenced images and WMS services can be used together with vector data. - Not suitable for OSM editing. Edits can be saved into shapefiles and with some struggle converted into osm format with tools like ogr2osm.py for further processing with JOSM but it's tricky. So no, OpenJUMP is not an OSM editor. - No routing. Osm2pgsql brakes the topology and even there has been some pgrouting plugin for OpenJUMP I would believe it won't work well with OSM data. Some kind of a workaround is to download route from Cloudmade in gpx format, convert it to shapefile and add then as a new layer into OpenJUMP map. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] CC-BY-SA derived ODbL data
Richard gave me an idea for mixing the stew. Let's say that a user who stays with CC-BY-SA has drawn crossing streets and buildings around the corner. Then another user who is willing to go with ODbL locates some POIs by looking at the ready OSM map. Sooner or later the streets and buildings will disappear from the OSM-ODbL but what will happen to the POIs? I suppose there are folks who say that also these POIs should be deleted from (or not transferred to) the OSM-ODbL database because they are derived from the CC-BY-SA only data. How strict are we going to be with these cases? If we are going to be strict, how can we sort them out? -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...
Jaak Laineste jaak.laineste at gmail.com writes: I don't really see how someone can even have the idea (or argument) that map is just a database of facts. I'd suggest a simple technical test for is X an art or fact. 1. ask two persons to create the X. 2. store it to a digital file, and make diff of the files. Only if you can get no differences then this was a pure fact. I am sure that mapping (like e.g. photography) will fail the test, even without trying it out. I like this test because it will make things easy. No fuzzy shades of grey like some Richard is suggesting. Can you give an example of a thing that is done by a human being and that is not art by this definition? -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Frederik declares war on data imports...
Richard Fairhurst richard at systemed.net writes: Jukka Rahkonen wrote: I like this test because it will make things easy. No fuzzy shades of grey like some Richard is suggesting. I'm not suggesting, I'm reporting. You might like things to be easy but that isn't the way the law works... or we wouldn't have been having this discussion for the last five years. I am awfully sorry, I did it again. I should have just written that I consider that the test that Jaak suggests is too simple, and the shades of grey are the colours I tend to see around me. -Jukka- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] decision removing data
80n 80n...@... writes: There are many things that meet the almost trivial threshold that legally constitutes creativity. Road classification, land use, abstraction, generalization, selectivity, arbitrary tagging, arrangement, smoothness, routes, desire paths, boundary approximation, building outlines, junction topology, address schema, layers, etc. All creative, all copyrightable. I have been leading a team of digitizers tracing features from aerial images. I was doing everything I could to minimize the creative or artistic part of their work. Actually, a quite heavy system of internal and external quality control was there just to make sure that every worker was producing about the same sort of bulk data. There are also other and bigger organizations than OSM doing same kind of, for my mind non-creative, work. Mapping agencies in the European countries, for example. I think that we must not claim that this kind of work is creative and copyrightable. That will be used against us and against all the citizens willing to use geospatial data produced by our administrations. We should show an example about free geodata, not the opposite. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] decision removing data
80n 80n...@... writes: So, without your best endeavours, would you agree that these contributors would naturally introduce some creativeness? If you have to expend effort to remove creativity then you have made a pretty good case for the existence of creativity. Thank you for your testimony. Somehow I feel that you did understand what I meant, but I may be wrong. Anyhow, I apologize, I should have written clearly that I did not really mean they were creative. They made errors. We learned them and tested them with calibrated test areas until they could do acceptable work. You can call them contributors, we called them workers. I suppose our boss would have used trained monkees instead if she had enough bananas. I have been doing rather a lot of digitising in my life. I do not consider my own digitising work as creative, just work. Others can feel in a different way, I speak for myself. Very similar work (but not as fun) as using a sewing machine, or welding steel plates, or plowing with a tractor - just try to follow the lines which you see. I think I would rather go welding now than continue this thread any longer. -Jukka- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Rendering street names across several ways
andrzej zaborowski balrogg at gmail.com writes: I think the rules for joining segments by osm2pgsql should be something like: * name='s are equal, * highway/railway/waterway/aeroway class is equal (however I wouldn't mind osm2pgsql joining a 3-segment way where the middle segment is shared with a tramway) * only two such ways meet at the common node -- not a Y type of junction where all three ways have identical names classes. * (possibly) not divided by a crossing with a higher class way, * (possibly) not meeting at a narrow angle * oneway='s are equal (or inverse, in case the ways have opposite directions), * unless it's a zoom level where the oneway arrows are invisible. Hi, I hope that if osm2pgsql will have this kind of Mapnik specific import rules, they would be optional. People are using osm2pgsql also for other purposes than Mapnik rendering. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Share-A-Like (non-) Verifiability because they are not publicly accessable
Andy Allan gravityst...@... writes: No. That would be avoiding the whole point of the share-alike license. If they have geographic data that we don't have, and they mix it with OSM data, then the whole point is that we end up with access to their geographic data. It's called share-alike! Not take-ours-and-keep-yours-private! Really, if people (businesses, charities, individuals or whoever) have data they wish to keep private, they can still use OSM data internally. If they want to Publicly Convey this Database, any Derivative Database, or the Database as part of a Collective Database, then they can't avoid the licence. Hi, You are obviously reading http://www.opendatacommons.org/licenses/odbl/1.0/ , section 4.5 in a different way that I do. a. For the avoidance of doubt, You are not required to license Collective Databases under this License if You incorporate this Database or a Derivative Database in the collection, but this License still applies to this Database or a Derivative Database as a part of the Collective Database; For me it looks like business users can feel safe with their data if they do not make derivative databases, for example by enhancing their own data by taking tags from OSM database. Drawing their own data on top of OSM basemap is OK, isn't it? -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Share-A-Like (non-) Verifiability because they are not publicly accessable
Richard Fairhurst rich...@... writes: Jukka Rahkonen wrote: Andy Allan writes: If they have geographic data that we don't have, and they mix it with OSM data, then the whole point is that we end up with access to their geographic data. [...] You are obviously reading section 4.5 in a different way that I do. [...] For me it looks like business users can feel safe with their data if they do not make derivative databases, for example by enhancing their own data by taking tags from OSM database. Drawing their own data on top of OSM basemap is OK, isn't it? Which fits in exactly with what Andy said. The key word is mix. Ok, I missed the meaning of mix. Thus our advice for Oliver about the cable network is not to mix the private data with OSM data inside his own copy of OSM database. It will be OK to render OSM basemap tiles and use for example a separate WFS-T service [1] for showing and editing the cable network vectors. Users must just take care that they do not edit cable lines according to what they see on the OSM map, otherwise all of the cable network data will be considered to be derived from OSM data and thus fall under odbl. [1] Openlayers example combining tiles and WFS-T http://dev.openlayers.org/releases/OpenLayers-2.9.1/examples/ wfs-protocol-transactions.html -Jukka- cheers Richard ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Share-A-Like (non-) Verifiability because they are not publicly accessable
Frederik Ramm frede...@... writes: I think that OSM as a whole - and this is not a legal issue - needs to improve interoperability. What we're currently seeing is import mania, poeple trying to stuff every possible bit of information into OSM because that's the easiest way for them to use it in conjunction with OSM data. There is too much geodata in the world for this to be sustainable - OSM must stick to things that mappers map. I agree. An EU-driven example about interoperability can be seen at http://www.paikkatietoikkuna.fi/web/en/map-window It is a pilot implemantation about what Inspire directive calls view services. Some rought OSM data from Geofabrik shapefiles are also included, on layers Transport networks - OpenStreetMap and Buildings - OpenStreetMap buildings. OSM data has a scale limit, zoom in enough and data appears but there are not many buildings outside the Helsinki district. GetFeatureInfo - the i tool works on these layers. Interoperability does not need to mean that everything that exists needs must be imported into OSM. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
