Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
Gary On 8/19/07, Gary Thornock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Clint Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just don't use Google for domains! I'm wondering whether you mean that Google for domains would be a bad fit for this list, or whether you're recommending not using Google for domains at all. Google for domains does host email (aliased) lists. And yes, they'd be bad for our list. I actually like the concept of Google for Domains, its just *incomplete* so far. Too many things lacking to really call it a solution, but if all you want to do is maintain a few email addresses and a few webpages and a calendar. It's perfect. In the former case, I completely agree. Google for domains really isn't set up to do mailing lists, and it would be a huge headache to manage a list like this one in that system. In the latter case, though, I've set up a couple of domains on Google Apps, and so far I've been very happy with the service. If that's what you mean, I'd be very curious why. ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
On Sunday 19 August 2007 09:42pm, Wade Preston Shearer wrote: All, I am toying with the idea of dropping Mailman for Google Groups and would like some feedback from the group. I wouldn't do it. A couple of other lists I've been on have switched back away from Google Groups because of the troubles they caused. Yes, they handle things fairly nicely, but you lose a lot of control over things like headers (there wasn't anything a sorting rule could really be built on and sorting by subject isn't a good idea, but please folks, don't flame me on that statement, however, ask if you don't understand me on it). Mailman is much better. You could try out Sympa, if you want to deal with installing it. Unless your server's distribution provides Sympa packages (and does well at maintaining them) it can be a little hairy. But it isn't too bad. Mailman is a nice, old friend that has giving years of dedicated service to the community, but his age is showing. Sure, once you get it configured and locked down, it will run like a champ for years on end, but installing and configuring Mailman is a royal pain and even adding/editing lists, administering services, and managing personal accounts is a pain. The interface is archaic and horrible from a usability standpoint. Mailman's features are excellent, but they aren't any good if you can't figure out how to use them or it is so complicated that you don't want to bother. Plus the archives aren't searchable. Plus the archives display your email address un-obsficated. I thought I've seen lots of mailman archives that are searchable (I think that includes mine). However, I would say they aren't easily searchable as you can only search through one month at a time. One could always use Google to search them via adding site:blah.uphpu.org in the search box (replace 'blah' with whatever is needed to get to the archives part of things. While I have considered alternate solutions off an on in the past, the upcoming project of rebuilding the server has be considering it very seriously now. Another motivation is the desire for a more robust and flexible solution that better meets the needs of all users. I have longed for some time for a solution that married a forum and a mailing list into one, I can understand that desire, but I HATE forums. Yes, they are a 'web equivalent to a list, sorta' but I don't know that it makes sense to do this. We could more easily have a mailing list with a web interface to allow people to submit a message to the list, but then you have opened up another attack vector for spammers. Yes, I know you can use captchas and so forth, but why? Just a mailing list is easier to control. so that the forum people would be happy and the email people would be happy… with posts coming from both email and web-based interface and being one and the same… perfectly synchronized and users only interacting through the medium they desire and receiving notifications in the manner they desire. Again, I understand the desire to be all things to all people, but I don't think this is a good idea. It could be, but it would be far worse than just trying to keep mailman in line, alone :) . Well, there is a solution that does just this: Google Groups. And, it's free. And it has a very slick, user-friendly interface. And it's archives are searchable. And it obsficates (the word is 'obfuscate', is your spel-chucker not catching dat 1?) your email address. You can even receive the post via RSS if you are so inclined. I am still checking to see if I can import our old archives, but assuming that that and everyone having to have a Good Account are the only downsides, what does everyone think? I think that I'm ready to make the switch. We would still post to uphpu@uphpu.org, the mail would just be delivered from [EMAIL PROTECTED] instead. It does digest mode and everything. What do you think? You can't control or even get headers out of it. I know one of the other lists that I'm on just switched back to Mailman (or Sympa, I don't know which, yet) from Google Groups primarily because of all the complaints about headers and sorting. There were other issues that they had encountered and Google wasn't interrested in fixing or helping with. -- Lamont Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Founder [ http://blog.OpenBrainstem.net/peregrine/ ] GPG Key fingerprint: 0E35 93C5 4249 49F0 EC7B 4DDD BE46 4732 6460 CCB5 ___ _ _ / _ \ _ __ ___ _ __ | __ ) _ __ __ _(_)_ __ ___| |_ ___ _ __ ___ | | | | '_ \ / _ \ '_ \| _ \| '__/ _` | | '_ \/ __| __/ _ \ '_ ` _ \ | |_| | |_) | __/ | | | |_) | | | (_| | | | | \__ \ || __/ | | | | | \___/| .__/ \___|_| |_|/|_| \__,_|_|_| |_|___/\__\___|_| |_| |_| |_| Intelligent Open Source Software Engineering [ http://www.OpenBrainstem.net/ ] ___
Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
The Ruby group (URUG) moved from mailman to Google Groups and it was a mostly smooth transition. I know of other lists that use Google Groups as a front-end to ease the load on their list app instance. You can subscribe and unsubscribe without ever having to create a Google account if you wish, just send an email to one of the following email accounts: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] I prefer Google Groups to Yahoo or MSN, and even to the privately hosted lists. The search is much better and its easier for me to manage my subscriptions. I'd welcome the change. ~Mike On 8/19/07, Wade Preston Shearer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All, I am toying with the idea of dropping Mailman for Google Groups and would like some feedback from the group. Mailman is a nice, old friend that has giving years of dedicated service to the community, but his age is showing. Sure, once you get it configured and locked down, it will run like a champ for years on end, but installing and configuring Mailman is a royal pain and even adding/editing lists, administering services, and managing personal accounts is a pain. The interface is archaic and horrible from a usability standpoint. Mailman's features are excellent, but they aren't any good if you can't figure out how to use them or it is so complicated that you don't want to bother. Plus the archives aren't searchable. Plus the archives display your email address un-obsficated. While I have considered alternate solutions off an on in the past, the upcoming project of rebuilding the server has be considering it very seriously now. Another motivation is the desire for a more robust and flexible solution that better meets the needs of all users. I have longed for some time for a solution that married a forum and a mailing list into one, so that the forum people would be happy and the email people would be happy… with posts coming from both email and web-based interface and being one and the same… perfectly synchronized and users only interacting through the medium they desire and receiving notifications in the manner they desire. Well, there is a solution that does just this: Google Groups. And, it's free. And it has a very slick, user-friendly interface. And it's archives are searchable. And it obsficates your email address. You can even receive the post via RSS if you are so inclined. I am still checking to see if I can import our old archives, but assuming that that and everyone having to have a Good Account are the only downsides, what does everyone think? I think that I'm ready to make the switch. We would still post to uphpu@uphpu.org, the mail would just be delivered from [EMAIL PROTECTED] instead. It does digest mode and everything. What do you think? wade ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
GoogleGroups requires cookies to post and it's my opinion anything that writes to your hard disk like cookies are evil - quite the opposite of open source. Actually Firefox writes to your hard disk, not cookies, so Firefox must be evil and anti-opensource. Well, most sites that require you to log in require cookies. I don't mind cookies for session tracking. Now using cookies for cross site tracking on the other hand... Besides, If you are paranoid about cookies, the CookieSafe extension for Firefox lets you manage cookies the same way NoScript does scripts. And along that line, I believe you have to register your email address with the list to post to it. Wouldn't that be about the same? Orson ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
--- Clint Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8/19/07, Gary Thornock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Clint Savage [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just don't use Google for domains! I'm wondering whether you mean that Google for domains would be a bad fit for this list, or whether you're recommending not using Google for domains at all. Google for domains does host email (aliased) lists. And yes, they'd be bad for our list. The Google for Domains lists are really a different beast anyway. They're more suited to a [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] distribution list, not a public list where individuals manage their own subscription settings. Google Groups would be a workable solution for this list that most of us could live with. I tend to like mailman better, partly because of the ability to customize headers and partly just because it's what I'm used to using, but the differences aren't important enough to me that I'd object to either alternative. ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
Google Groups would be a workable solution for this list that most of us could live with. I tend to like mailman better, partly because of the ability to customize headers and partly just because it's what I'm used to using, but the differences aren't important enough to me that I'd object to either alternative. I'd suggest those interested/disinterested sign up for the Google groups list and run a bit of discussion on it to see better how it works. IE.: find out if we can get our filters, nesting, etc. to work with Google groups and then make a decision whether it works well enough for us. Orson /me signs up for the new list ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
I'd suggest those interested/disinterested sign up for the Google groups list and run a bit of discussion on it to see better how it works. IE.: find out if we can get our filters, nesting, etc. to work with Google groups and then make a decision whether it works well enough for us. Excellent idea. Here is the group. Sign up and let's test it out throughout the day today. http://groups.google.com/group/uphpu?lnk=gschg smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
On Mon, 2007-08-20 at 09:27 -0600, Wade Preston Shearer wrote:
Yes, they handle things fairly nicely, but you lose a lot of
control over things like headers (there wasn't anything a sorting
rule could really be built on and
sorting by subject isn't a good idea, but please folks, don't flame
me on
that statement, however, ask if you don't understand me on it).
What type of sorting are you looking to do? I haven't ever customized
any headers with the UPHPU list.
Does Google Groups use standard mailing list headers? I am specifically
interested in the List-* headers. I use some of them for my personal
filtering.
I use a single procmail filter rule that sorts my mailing list
subscriptions into folders automatically. If the Google Groups doesn't
add the proper headers, I can cope, but it's just not as cool.
:0
* ^List-Id:.*\/[-_a-z]+
* ^List-Post
.lists.${MATCH}/
--
--lonnie
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Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
On Mon, 2007-08-20 at 11:48 -0600, Lonnie Olson wrote: Does Google Groups use standard mailing list headers? I am specifically interested in the List-* headers. I use some of them for my personal filtering. nevermind, I joined and got a message. The answer is yes. The headers are only very slightly different, but are accurate, and my procmail rule worked perfectly. :) --lonnie ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
On 8/20/07, Lamont Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 19 August 2007 09:42pm, Wade Preston Shearer wrote: All, I am toying with the idea of dropping Mailman for Google Groups and would like some feedback from the group. I wouldn't do it. A couple of other lists I've been on have switched back away from Google Groups because of the troubles they caused. Yes, they handle things fairly nicely, but you lose a lot of control over things like headers (there wasn't anything a sorting rule could really be built on and sorting by subject isn't a good idea, but please folks, don't flame me on that statement, however, ask if you don't understand me on it). Lamont, if you are referring to google for domains (alias lists), that's different from google groups. My experience with Google Groups has been nice and smooth. Google for domains doesn't integrate Google Groups, but if it did, I think many people would switch everything there. Cheers, Clint ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
The Ruby group (URUG) moved from mailman to Google Groups and it was a mostly smooth transition. I know of other lists that use Google Groups as a front-end to ease the load on their list app instance. Did they move their archives over? Does anyone know of any group that was using Mailman, moved to Google Groups, and was able to port their existing archives over? smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
Gary Thornock wrote: --- jtaber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GoogleGroups requires cookies to post and it's my opinion anything that writes to your hard disk like cookies are evil - quite the opposite of open source. Also, unless there's a way to get msgs sent directly to your email, it also means logging onto the web, to the site, entering user/password, blah, blah, - not very convenient from a smart phone. Also I like the ability to save key messages in my email for further reference as opposed to going to the group list and searching. I've never noticed any of those problems with the urug list, which is on Google Groups. That's mainly because yes, there *is* a way to have the messages sent directly to your email, and to post back from your email as well. Thanks, I never knew you could do this - I'll check my google account page but if there's some special way to do it, please let me know. ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
On Aug 19, 2007, at 9:42 PM, Wade Preston Shearer wrote: snip What do you think? I'm all for anything that makes a volunteer job easier and cheaper. I use Google groups for a few other lists, and I like it just fine. $google_groups++; -- John ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
I'm all for anything that makes a volunteer job easier and cheaper. I use Google groups for a few other lists, and I like it just fine. I have a question for you since you are an active Google Groups user: On the manage my memberships screen [1], where you specify per-list nickname, email, and subscription type settings, there is a drop down for selecting which email address you want to use for which address. How does one add their various email accounts to this drop down so that they can be selected? [1] http://groups.google.com/groups/mysubs?hl=en smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
On 8/19/07, Wade Preston Shearer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All, I am toying with the idea of dropping Mailman for Google Groups and would like some feedback from the group. Mailman is a nice, old friend that has giving years of dedicated service to the community, but his age is showing. Sure, once you get it configured and locked down, it will run like a champ for years on end, but installing and configuring Mailman is a royal pain and even adding/editing lists, administering services, and managing personal accounts is a pain. The interface is archaic and horrible from a usability standpoint. Mailman's features are excellent, but they aren't any good if you can't figure out how to use them or it is so complicated that you don't want to bother. Plus the archives aren't searchable. Plus the archives display your email address un-obsficated. Just don't use Google for domains! I think if they actually integrated the functionality of Google Groups it'd be a perfect world. Google Groups is a nice idea and adding us to a list on there would be fine with me. Probably the only drawback is that the email addresses wouldn't end in uphpu.org IIRC. Cheers, Clint While I have considered alternate solutions off an on in the past, the upcoming project of rebuilding the server has be considering it very seriously now. Another motivation is the desire for a more robust and flexible solution that better meets the needs of all users. I have longed for some time for a solution that married a forum and a mailing list into one, so that the forum people would be happy and the email people would be happy… with posts coming from both email and web-based interface and being one and the same… perfectly synchronized and users only interacting through the medium they desire and receiving notifications in the manner they desire. Well, there is a solution that does just this: Google Groups. And, it's free. And it has a very slick, user-friendly interface. And it's archives are searchable. And it obsficates your email address. You can even receive the post via RSS if you are so inclined. I am still checking to see if I can import our old archives, but assuming that that and everyone having to have a Good Account are the only downsides, what does everyone think? I think that I'm ready to make the switch. We would still post to uphpu@uphpu.org, the mail would just be delivered from [EMAIL PROTECTED] instead. It does digest mode and everything. What do you think? wade ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
Just don't use Google for domains! I moved a few personal and family domains/emails accounts over this weekend and have been in utter bliss. I haven't received a single piece of Spam since the move. I think if they actually integrated the functionality of Google Groups it'd be a perfect world. Agreed. Google Groups is a nice idea and adding us to a list on there would be fine with me. I'm not interested in managing two different systems. Mirroring the archive on Google Groups is better than what we have now, but not from an administration perspective. Probably the only drawback is that the email addresses wouldn't end in uphpu.org IIRC. I can set up an alias so that the post-to address will still be uphpu@uphpu.org instead of [EMAIL PROTECTED], although that's not that big of a deal. You are correct though in that the from address will not have uphpu.org in it. Posts will come from [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Why do you consider this a drawback? smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
Re: [UPHPU] dropping Mailman for Google Groups
On a side note: On 8/19/07, Wade Preston Shearer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... ... Plus the archives display your email address un-obsficated. ... That's only if you forget to check the checkbox at the bottom of the Admin page for Privacy called: Show member addresses so they're not directly recognizable as email addresses? Check yes and you're good to go for your pre-existing archives as well as future emails. You can set that in your default config file too for all future lists created. Hope this helps. On a related note, does anybody know if you can have private Google Groups where noone can see the archives unless you give them permission and you can have a solo moderator with noone else to override them? -- Roger L. Brown http://downtownweb.com/ ___ UPHPU mailing list UPHPU@uphpu.org http://uphpu.org/mailman/listinfo/uphpu IRC: #uphpu on irc.freenode.net
