baking recipes - the stove is on ... but the gas was leaking out !!!
Vesa hates it because he cannot put a hook and a worm on OPENGL . Big sorry from my side to Vesa, for the wrong interpretation. Thanks to Garry, who's putting me on the right way. Matthias Listen , Matt , your hard work was very appreciated , but I am compelled to put the community before you , before Vesa, before Juha , before me , before Bill Gates ... That sometimes will cause a lot of friction when trying to do my small part to improve the S/W . It is a tiny little role I play here , but I will play it to the best of my ability , which will include calling out Bullshit , when and where I see it . If I see it in the S/W , I will call Bullshit , If I see it in people's responses , I will call Bullshit (and quite often , much , much worse) . I apologise , and you of all people should not take my mails too seriously , anyway . I post here , normally in a for the record type of manner. It is nothing more than an observational for what it's worth . If you or Realsoft read it and deem it to be worthless , then so be it , I could care less , but I will post my thoughts and ideas and observations (and try to make my point) until I get kicked off , or die, or move to the LW pit . You are selfless , and giving of your time , and only the tiny language barrier holds you back a little bit (as well as your day job of course) . You are a Realsoft3D Master . You can find workarounds always, and I admire you for that , and quite frankly , this is how I like to work too , normally . However , myself , lately , have been asking (myself) , why are we always having to find workarounds for bugs , or missing tools? Or having to search ask for info on specific tools that are not mentioned in the manual . It is a never ending , non-stop , forever kind of a thing . I feel like a kid who keeps asking when is Daddy coming home? and being told soon , son , soon ... , when in fact ,Daddy has been dead and eaten by wolves 5 years ago . I was not trying to make you realise that you are always wrong and don't know what you're taking about , but was trying to make a simple , simple point , once and for all so that perhaps this area of the S/W could be looked at by the Testers and RS . And if one of the Testers or Vesa was to come here and say ... there is nothing wrong with it , you only need to do this then this then this ... I will simply say Bullshit , and then try to carry on . I hope this makes you feel a bit better , and if I haven't said it enough , thanks for all your great explorations and tutorials and non-stop help . You are a true leader in this small community , not like me who is just a loud mouth know it all . (who really knows very little about 3D these days) cheers garry
Re: baking recipes
If you try to bake a analtic mapping type on a SDS with bad Uvs you can't get good results. Yes , I know . The problem is with the UV-Image Tool and not being able to get ... ANY RESULTS FOR SDS !!! Have a look here: http://www.the-final.com/rs/checker-sds.jpg You can see a bad distortion at the top of the SDS (top-left viewport). I see bad distortions my friend . I'm 52 years old and I see very bad distortions ... Have you seen the latest 'bad distortion' ? http://tinyurl.com/2fe77q MS $357Million fine ? Sorry , that's old hat . I meant the slap this week . http://tinyurl.com/38a4nn Just another day in the life for Bill Gates . All part of the plan and the plan is going quite well , thank you very much . Have a nice day . garry
Re: baking recipes - Bad Mushrooms
Hi Matt : It's 3:00 AM here , I'll attempt to check it out tomorrow . Thanks garry Hi Garry, Have a look here: http://www.the-final.com/rs/AO_in_OGL2.zip First of all , which version of RS are you using ? Are you Frank still on the 6.01.04 demo ? The rest are on 6.01.03 . 6.01.04 The setting.gif shows the settings ;-) No , it doesn't . You show a screen capture for Analytic map- ping ! The problem being faced is Realtime for SDS . It shows the UV-Image tool settings for baking out illumination of a default map. (AO in this case) Also , the true test for realtime mapping is to turn off all realtime lights after the maps are created . With the Lights 'OFF' , now you will see just exactly what RS has created for realtime viewing (unless this is a bug also ?) Why must the lights beeing turned off, is this a rule for the contest? OK, in the above links are no lights used :-) Turn 'Lights-Off' for your project and the SDS mushroom appears to have been on the shelf far too long , yet the Analytic Rectangle is perfectly mapped in Realtime OGL . You say 'Do Not Forget Ambient Light' , but why ? Is this your workaround method for certain bugs , in some ways ? The ambient light solves the problem that the SDS is too dark in OGL, if you use the VSL-Method. If you don't like the VSL-Method, and the lights, too, try this: Turn off (for OGL/Realtime) all lights and set the maps in the Property Window as Illumination Map for the objects. Then you don't need any VSL or additional lights ;-)
Re: baking recipes - the stove is not turned on yet .
The bad distortions on the SDS can be solved by simply refining the top and bottom of the SDS a little bit It's an everyday problem, how to get good UVs. No character with painted textures without having good UVs :-? Matthias Must be some kind of major communication breakdown (again?) . The whole gist of this thread was this : The UV-Image Tool allows for very quick baking when using Analytic Objects (as per the Manual's example) However , when using SDS Objects , the UV-Image tool APPEARS to function the same way the manual shows (for Analytic) and APPEARS to bake maps , but is indeed , very , very , very broken . You supplied a project , and what you were actually trying to show , I have no idea , but it was not re- lated to this thread , except perhaps as some kind of a workaround . You could create a hundred projects showing how it can be done and it would not matter to me , since I was only trying to show that it can't be done the same way that the manual says it should be done (kill me) . VSL , or a 2 stage method , or Map2Object , or UV-Image Tool (but a different use) ... it doesn't matter . I am only trying to point out obvious flaws so that they can be fixed in V9 or one of the next hundred service packs . You seem to be trying to show that it can be done , so good for you , but please just point to the part of the Manual where it shows what you are trying to do ... Correct ! Now you get what I'm trying to say . That , tiny, tiny , tiny little part of the manual (that talks about this feature) is missing some (?!?!?!?!) vital information ... ... concerning SDS and baking illumination !! !! Why oh why Why oh why Why oh why Why oh why Why oh why Why oh why (am I constantly repeating myself) over over over over over over over over over over over over over over Seriously , it's broken ! (ya , the record too) Either fix the S/W or fix the Manual . That's my point , again , as plainly as I can make it , for the last time - period ! [next stop MAYA] The workaround method is ... Ah , forget it . It's 4:00 AM and I'm officially , out !
Re: baking recipes - Bad Mushrooms
Screenshot: http://www.the-final.com/rs/OGL-no-lights-no-VSL.jpg Have a look at the select windowno lights, no VSL-shaders ;-) and as you can see in the bottom right viewport, shadow is matching exactly the mushroom... Matthias - Original Message - From: studio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: user-list@light.realsoft3d.com Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 9:11 AM Subject: Re: baking recipes - Bad Mushrooms Hi Matt : It's 3:00 AM here , I'll attempt to check it out tomorrow . Thanks garry Hi Garry, Have a look here: http://www.the-final.com/rs/AO_in_OGL2.zip First of all , which version of RS are you using ? Are you Frank still on the 6.01.04 demo ? The rest are on 6.01.03 . 6.01.04 The setting.gif shows the settings ;-) No , it doesn't . You show a screen capture for Analytic map- ping ! The problem being faced is Realtime for SDS . It shows the UV-Image tool settings for baking out illumination of a default map. (AO in this case) Also , the true test for realtime mapping is to turn off all realtime lights after the maps are created . With the Lights 'OFF' , now you will see just exactly what RS has created for realtime viewing (unless this is a bug also ?) Why must the lights beeing turned off, is this a rule for the contest? OK, in the above links are no lights used :-) Turn 'Lights-Off' for your project and the SDS mushroom appears to have been on the shelf far too long , yet the Analytic Rectangle is perfectly mapped in Realtime OGL . You say 'Do Not Forget Ambient Light' , but why ? Is this your workaround method for certain bugs , in some ways ? The ambient light solves the problem that the SDS is too dark in OGL, if you use the VSL-Method. If you don't like the VSL-Method, and the lights, too, try this: Turn off (for OGL/Realtime) all lights and set the maps in the Property Window as Illumination Map for the objects. Then you don't need any VSL or additional lights ;-)
Re: baking recipes - the stove is not turned on yet .
Must be some kind of major communication breakdown (again?) . Sorry, most times my german is better than my english. Only tried to help out. The whole gist of this thread was this : The UV-Image Tool allows for very quick baking when using Analytic Objects (as per the Manual's example) However , when using SDS Objects , the UV-Image tool APPEARS to function the same way the manual shows (for Analytic) and APPEARS to bake maps , but is indeed , very , very , very broken . I've never read the manual for the UVimage tool :-? You supplied a project , and what you were actually trying to show , I have no idea , but it was not re- lated to this thread , except perhaps as some kind of a workaround . It should show baked textures assigned to an analtic rectangle and a SDS :-? You could create a hundred projects showing how it can be done and it would not matter to me , since I was only trying to show that it can't be done the same way that the manual says it should be done (kill me) . Point me to the manuals page, please VSL , or a 2 stage method , or Map2Object , or UV-Image Tool (but a different use) ... it doesn't matter . I am only trying to point out obvious flaws so that they can be fixed in V9 or one of the next hundred service packs . You seem to be trying to show that it can be done , so good for you , but please just point to the part of the Manual where it shows what you are trying to do ... As said above: Never read Correct ! Now you get what I'm trying to say . That , tiny, tiny , tiny little part of the manual (that talks about this feature) is missing some (?!?!?!?!) vital information ... H, now I've pressed F1 for UVimage tool. OK, can be more information, butit's ok. Maybe the missing information is, that you can only bake things, which are available in the shader? Should I set up a short tutorial :-? Matthias
Re: [SPAM] Re: baking recipes - the stove is not turned on yet .
OK to me ;-) (Somelast notes: Maybe the object is black after baking is a OGL bug and not a UVimage tool bug, simply close and reopen the scene ;-) and maybe illumination baking ignores camera flashlights, so better use an ambient light instead of camera flash light in the scene, and ... was this to cruel: http://the-final.com/rs/OGL-no-lights-no-VSL.jpg ) Matthias - Original Message - From: Mark Heuymans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: user-list@light.realsoft3d.com Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 5:42 PM Subject: [SPAM] Re: baking recipes - the stove is not turned on yet . Correct ! Now you get what I'm trying to say . That , tiny, tiny , tiny little part of the manual (that talks about this feature) is missing some (?!?!?!?!) vital information ... H, now I've pressed F1 for UVimage tool. OK, can be more information, butit's ok. Maybe the missing information is, that you can only bake things, which are available in the shader? Should I set up a short tutorial :-? Matthias No, a very long one please! Actually, Map2Obj and UVImage are just those tools that deserve whole chapters in the manual instead of a few short references. Frankly, like Garry I'm getting a bit fed up with the whole subject... I'm dropping the idea of a high-quality real-time walkthrough within RS3s with baked illumination. If we have such trouble to get even simple test scenes working without much hassle, how about serious scenes with hunderds of objects? Forget it! I tried to bake indirect illumination in a ceiling in one of the stock sample scenes (a house Building) but only ended up with black mappings. But I know this can work , I did it in the past. Also, I tried to bake a shadowmap into a cylinder; it did show up both in OGL and raytracing but it was very dislocated (the two didn't match). I noticed that RS generates spherical mappings for all analytics, maybe that's a problem too. No time at the moment to get into this further, some heavy modeling to do! thanks everyone for the efforts, Mark PS I don't know if it's my ISP's mailserver that marks these mails as possible spam, I'll look into it
Re: baking recipes - the stove is not turned on yet .
Sorry, most times my german is better than my english. Only tried to help out. Your english is very good . I've never read the manual for the UVimage tool :-? Well ,there isn't much to read , unfortunately . The UV-Image tool is another example of a very powerful component that is not documented properly . Only 1 tiny example in User Manual. It should show baked textures assigned to an analtic rectangle and a SDS :-? Yes , it's a workaround method , but Mark's method was easier to use , and each step is explained and understood , and the user understands that OGL SDS illumination maps are broken in RSV4/5/6 with OPENGL . H, now I've pressed F1 for UVimage tool. OK, can be more information, butit's ok. It's OK for the Reference Manual , but the User Manual's example (in the Advanced Rendering Section) only deals with Analytic illumination baking . UV-Image tool can do so much more , but it is never talked about , not even here . Maybe the missing information is, that you can only bake things, which are available in the shader ? There are pages of missing information for that very powerful tool , especially with the New V6 RS Viewer being something that users will want to try out . Anyway , the example in the USER! manual does not deal with baking a shader . It should deal with that subject too , (of course), but it does not (of course) . Should I set up a short tutorial :-? Matthias Well , better that RS incorporate a few more examples in the User Manual . The Reference Manual rarely includes examples , but it would be a big help to those that are stuck . I would never say no to Tutorials , but personally I think it's time that some of those tutorials be placed in the User Manual , instead of being spread out all over the world on dozens of servers . garry
Re: baking recipes - the stove is not turned on yet .
Hi Garry, Matthias , last week I already posted perfect OpenGL shadows on Analytic Objects (like your rectangle) . Here it is again , since I think you missed that whole thread . g A very quick dirty example of 'Baked illumination maps' g using the 'UVimage Tool' . Stock , non-postprocessed maps g at 256 pixel resolutions and samples set at '5' . g Sphere and rectangles are Analytic . I didn't miss it. My idea is more or less the following: It's a bug-combination of: SDS-Uv-coordsys, Triangulating =OGL There where no big problems on my side with baking out textures for SDS for raytracing. That's why my idea is that is can be a SDS = OGL bug. If I'm right Vesa said long time ago in an interview on Bernies site, he hates OGL :-? The UV-coordsys in RS has problems. Before baking out something, I always set all materials to default... If then something is looking strange, it will become strange in the baked texture, too. As I've been trying to say , the problem is with OGL , the UV-Image example and SDS objects in the User Manual . Mark discovered it - I concured there is a problem -hopefully one day Realsoft will fix the problem - - you found one of the workaround methods ... (but seem absolutely and completely unwilling to admit that there is any kind of a problem ) . That may gain you points with RS , but it does not help to correct this long outstand- ing and unnoticed , OpenGL bug . I'm not absolutely and completely unwilling to admit that there is a problem ;-) My try was to show that or how it's possible, to get a maybe useful result. I simply tried to help out. Matthias
Re: baking recipes
Quick update: I finally managed to get something in opengl, it appears I got
into trouble because I was working with SDS and tried to bake into the faces
('attach' and 'per face' checked). This is handled differently by OGL, a
bug??
Workaround by going into the freshly calculated shadowmap material and
change a few things:
- get rid of the line Color = Constant(0,0,0) (no wonder it appeared black,
heh)
Actually , I left it and then selected (.5,.5,.5) , or whatever .
- replace 'Illumination += Texture(Map coords)' by 'Color *= Texture(Map
coords)'
This did not work for me . Using SDS I could not get any
realtime maps to show up ! However , switching to 'Color *=
Texture(Map coords)' did give me a much , much better ray-
tracing (actually useable) .
Diffuse maps (indirect lighting) are often too dark, so a line like 'Color
+= linear(Color)' may help, set multiplication factor to [1.5 1.5 1.5] or
so.
OK .
The weird thing is that this illumination-color conversion is not necessary
when NOT baking into SDS faces! That must be why it worked for you Garry. I
just had to fall into that rabbit hole...
to be continued,
-Mark
Yes , I'll continue to try and get this to work as nicely as it did
for Analytic , with SDS . I've noticed other differences right away
with the simple 'mapped shadows' option for Lights , also . I'm guessing
this area of RS did not get explored very deeply previously .
Good luck with your research .
garry
Re: baking recipes
What should be the result :-?
A textured object for RS-Viewer :-?
Matthias
- Original Message -
From: Mark Heuymans [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: user-list@light.realsoft3d.com
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 7:44 PM
Subject: baking recipes
Well done! How did you make it show up in OGL, any modifications in the
mapping materials? All I get is black walls in realtime, only when
rendering the mappings show up.
Quick update: I finally managed to get something in opengl, it appears I got
into trouble because I was working with SDS and tried to bake into the faces
('attach' and 'per face' checked). This is handled differently by OGL, a
bug??
Workaround by going into the freshly calculated shadowmap material and
change a few things:
- get rid of the line Color = Constant(0,0,0) (no wonder it appeared black,
heh)
- replace 'Illumination += Texture(Map coords)' by 'Color *= Texture(Map
coords)'
Diffuse maps (indirect lighting) are often too dark, so a line like 'Color
+= linear(Color)' may help, set multiplication factor to [1.5 1.5 1.5] or
so.
The weird thing is that this illumination-color conversion is not necessary
when NOT baking into SDS faces! That must be why it worked for you Garry. I
just had to fall into that rabbit hole...
to be continued,
-Mark
Re: baking recipes
What should be the result :-? A textured object for RS-Viewer :-? Matthias Yes . Mark I are just testing the V6 demo . garry
Re: baking recipes
Do you have proper UV-Coordinates :-? And if I'm right, the RS UV-Coordsys is linear, but the SDS surface is not linear, if set to smoothen to nurbs. I get very often unsmooth curves, while baking textures, or strange results with per face mapping, at the borders of different materials. The Map2Object tool can maybe give better results, because it's using it's own coordsys and not the UV-coordsys :-? But: If you have proper UVs, it should be not to hard to get a useful result with SDS. Matthias - Original Message - From: studio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: user-list@light.realsoft3d.com Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 9:35 PM Subject: Re: baking recipes Yes , I'll continue to try and get this to work as nicely as it did for Analytic , with SDS . I've noticed other differences right away with the simple 'mapped shadows' option for Lights , also . I'm guessing this area of RS did not get explored very deeply previously . Good luck with your research . garry The only way I could get realtime maps to show up with SDS was to use the 'Map2Object' tool , like I mentioned originally. I could not get maps to show up in realtime with the 'UVimage' tool , with SDS objects . I got some suedo-acceptable results for raytracing , and some actual raytracing useable results (when I modified illumination target to the color target, but otherwise it was not a no-brainer like the analytic tests were . I haven't tried taking the textures that were created via 'UVimage' tool , and running them through 'Map2object , yet . Will do that later today . garry
Re: baking recipes
Hmmm, something like this :-? www.the-final.com/rs Ambient Occlusion baked. Simply added an ambient light to get the right illumination for the SDS. The Textures in the Textures folder are blurred in Photoshop. The original maps are in the root folder. The setting.gif shows the settings ;-) Matthias - Original Message - From: studio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: user-list@light.realsoft3d.com Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2008 9:35 PM Subject: Re: baking recipes Yes , I'll continue to try and get this to work as nicely as it did for Analytic , with SDS . I've noticed other differences right away with the simple 'mapped shadows' option for Lights , also . I'm guessing this area of RS did not get explored very deeply previously . Good luck with your research . garry The only way I could get realtime maps to show up with SDS was to use the 'Map2Object' tool , like I mentioned originally. I could not get maps to show up in realtime with the 'UVimage' tool , with SDS objects . I got some suedo-acceptable results for raytracing , and some actual raytracing useable results (when I modified illumination target to the color target, but otherwise it was not a no-brainer like the analytic tests were . I haven't tried taking the textures that were created via 'UVimage' tool , and running them through 'Map2object , yet . Will do that later today . garry
Re: baking recipes
The whole purpose of this thread is to talk about realtime results , and so far I can get no realtime results using the 'UVimage tool' and SDS . garry Hi Garry, did you have a look at the file, is it this what you like to get: http://www.the-final.com/rs/ Matthias Yes , for hours and hours and hours and hours ...
Re: baking recipes
Hi Garry, I do not agree here: Well , the thing is , the raytracing is OK (as far as mapping Coordinates , anyway) . The problem is with the realtime representation . If you try to bake a analtic mapping type on a SDS with bad Uvs you can't get good results. Have a look here: http://www.the-final.com/rs/checker-sds.jpg You can see a bad distortion at the top of the SDS (top-left viewport). Matthias
Re: baking recipes
And :-? Yes , for hours and hours and hours and hours ...
baking recipes
Well done! How did you make it show up in OGL, any modifications in the
mapping materials? All I get is black walls in realtime, only when
rendering the mappings show up.
Quick update: I finally managed to get something in opengl, it appears I got
into trouble because I was working with SDS and tried to bake into the faces
('attach' and 'per face' checked). This is handled differently by OGL, a
bug??
Workaround by going into the freshly calculated shadowmap material and
change a few things:
- get rid of the line Color = Constant(0,0,0) (no wonder it appeared black,
heh)
- replace 'Illumination += Texture(Map coords)' by 'Color *= Texture(Map
coords)'
Diffuse maps (indirect lighting) are often too dark, so a line like 'Color
+= linear(Color)' may help, set multiplication factor to [1.5 1.5 1.5] or
so.
The weird thing is that this illumination-color conversion is not necessary
when NOT baking into SDS faces! That must be why it worked for you Garry. I
just had to fall into that rabbit hole...
to be continued,
-Mark
