Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality
You forget that not all ancient scientists and craftmans where geniuses. Most of them where not. Quack. fraud and absolutel strange and wrong theories and false explanations where everywhere. They kept everything secret (as Rossi does) and didnt collaborate but competed (as Rossi does). I have delivered a perfect explanation how to fake the energy (sucking water out by vacuum and a hidden switch that activates the heater when nobody watches the power) and you consistently ignore it or you make up weak excuses to explain it away. Think about Theodore Sturgeons law: 98% of everything is crap. This is very true. Am 04.11.2011 23:48, schrieb Jed Rothwell: Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de mailto:peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: I'm sure he would say go ahead and ignore that if you like; just look at the physical facts. If he does it this way, then he cannot know the difference between a random effect, a systematic measurement error or a real physical fact. How can he know, if he doesnt care about repeatable and predictable precision? That does not follow at all. You are ignoring the whole history of technology up to the late 19th century. For the last 30,000 years, craftsmen and technicians have depended entirely on observations and physical tests of materials. A Japanese swordsman makes a superb blade using entirely what he sees and smells, such as the incandescent color of the workpiece. These craftsmen were as systematic as any modern scientist or engineer. That is why they were able to do superb metallurgy and build cathedrals without any knowledge of modern physics or chemistry. The people who made Damascus steel and Japanese swords had no knowledge that oxygen exists and absolutely no grasp of physics but they were able to do things that modern metallurgists still do not fully understand. Any metallurgist stands in awe of these ancient people. I have seen videos of Japanese sword makers at work and I assure you they are as methodical as anyone can be. They use no numbers at all. They have no modern instruments. They deal entirely in real physical effects, not measurements in the modern sense. They have tremendous knowledge, and it is accurate and true, but it is not in same form as modern scientific knowledge. Rossi's methods more resemble those of ancient craftsmen more than modern scientists'. That makes it all the more astounding -- and admirable -- that he has succeeded. Your notion that people cannot be scientific without number crunching is typical of the ahistorical view of modern people. You should learn how people did things 100 years ago, or 500 years ago. Your ancestors knew far more than you give them credit for and they were much more methodical and scientific than people appreciate. Look at the buildings and objects and works of art they left us, and you see proof of that. He will fall victim to parasitic and random errors and instead developing energy he will develop a method for systematic false measurements. You cannot have false measurements when you do not use instruments to measure things. Sword makers, cooks, soldiers, farmers, artists, potters working with glazes, and many others people understood temperatures by various direct means such as color, the consistency of materials, or melting minerals (the sort of thing a modern potter uses in a kiln). They did that for thousands of years before thermometers were invented. Modern science began in 1600, but people have been using scientific, logical methods informed by facts about nature for thousands of years. If you showed Rossi's device to an ancient craftsmen, he would instantly grasp the significance of it. It would be obvious to him. Ancient people understood that you cannot keep something hot without fire, and fire consumes fuel at fixed ratio to the heat. That why they they celebrated the Hanukkah miracle (the festival of lights). They understood perfectly well that a candle cannot burn for many days without exhausting the fuel. In fact, they understood better than many modern physicists. I am sure the Hanukkah miracle did not actually occur. it must have been been an exaggeration or a misunderstanding. The point is, people thought it occurred, and they recognized it would be a miracle. Nowadays, modern physicists and the people here wave their hands and make up excuses to explain away Rossi's 4 hours of heat after death. That is like trying to to explain away oil candles burning for eight days with a 1 day supply of fuel. It is grotesque that people do not instantly see this must be an anomaly. - Jed
[Vo]:How to post this on Krivit's Forum? Some Thoughts about Rossi.
Hi, as many might have noticed I have changed sides and now want to post on Krivits forum. This will reduce traffic here. ;-) I did however not find a way to post, no thread has a reply box like in other forums. How is this done? I wanted to post this: = Some thoughts: The previous demos can be explained by this: 1) Rossi uses a wireless secret switch to activate the heater when nobody watches the input power. THis explains excess energy. 2) Rossi has a vacuum pump (might be a water jet pump) inside the wall or behind it, where the steam oulet hose is inserted. Most water is sucked out instead vaporized and this also explains dry steam in the remainig volume. 3) Instead the lead shielding Rossi might use a biphase thermal storage material to surpress quick temperature variations. The 1MW demo is most suspicious to me, because nobody made remarks about extraordinary heat at the radiators behind the pressboard fence. The area inside was about 25 square meters. 470 kW is enough to heat a cathedral with a footprint of some 100 squaremeters. Hot flimmering air like this above a tin roof in summer should have been there. Why was the temperature 1-2 metres above the pressboard jail not measured? 470 kW is roughly equivalent to an air stream of 4 cubic metres per second, heated from 20 centigrade to 100 centigrade. 470 kW is equivalent to 300 litres of dry saturated steam per second at air pressure. Why didnt Rossi release the steam into the sky at the end of the demo? This would have been an impressive scenario and worldwide attention and sensational videos published would have been sure! Please excuse my english I am not native english spoken. Best, Peter
Re: [Vo]:How to post this on Krivit's Forum? Some Thoughts about Rossi.
Hi, as many might have noticed I have changed sides and now want to post on Krivits forum. This will reduce traffic here. ;-) I did however not find a way to post, no thread has a reply box like in other forums. How is this done? I don't know, but you could post on ecatnews.com.
Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality
On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 6:39 AM, Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: I have delivered a perfect explanation how to fake the energy (sucking water out by vacuum and a hidden switch that activates the heater when nobody watches the power) and you consistently ignore it or you make up weak excuses to explain it away. Have you ever worked around large diesel generators? If you had you would know that you don't have to watch them to know when a large load has been engaged. It would be obvious to anyone within earshot that AR had flicked the switch. Sorry, try again. T
Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality
On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 6:39 AM, Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: I have delivered a perfect explanation how to fake the energy (sucking water out by vacuum and a hidden switch that activates the heater when nobody watches the power) and you consistently ignore it or you make up weak excuses to explain it away. Have you ever worked around large diesel generators? If you had you would know that you don't have to watch them to know when a large load has been engaged. It would be obvious to anyone within earshot that AR had flicked the switch. Rossi could have had an extra, secret, load engaged all the time. When he flicked the switch to 'off', the secret load was disconnected, leaving the rest of the load, including the ecats.
Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality
On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 10:44 AM, Vorl Bek vorl@antichef.com wrote: Rossi could have had an extra, secret, load engaged all the time. When he flicked the switch to 'off', the secret load was disconnected, leaving the rest of the load, including the ecats. A 1/2 megaWatt resistive load is somewhat difficult to hide without detection. Also, the switching system would have to be very fast not to be noticed when switching between loads. In the south US we have a saying, If a frog had wings, he would not hurt his ass each time he jumps. ;-) T
Re: [Vo]:How to post this on Krivit's Forum? Some Thoughts about Rossi.
Peter, Maybe you inability to post on Krivit's forum is a message for you to heed. I have posted on that one before (forgive me for I have sinned), and sometimes weeks go by before it is open for new posts. One day you will realize that you are mistaken about Rossi and will come home to vortex. Sure, Rossi is a hard guy to understand, but his device is exceptional. I have proven to myself that it functions by several different techniques and I would assume that a guy with your capabilities would be able to do the same. You spend far too much time trying to figure out how to scam everyone instead of the obvious. The obvious is to realize that this is a real effect and we should use our energy to understand how it functions. Regards, Dave -Original Message- From: Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de To: Vortex vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, Nov 5, 2011 9:25 am Subject: [Vo]:How to post this on Krivit's Forum? Some Thoughts about Rossi. Hi, as many might have noticed I have changed sides and now want to post on rivits forum. his will reduce traffic here. ;-) did however not find a way to post, no thread has a reply box like in ther forums. ow is this done? I wanted to post this: = ome thoughts: The previous demos can be explained by this: ) Rossi uses a wireless secret switch to activate the heater when obody watches the input power. THis explains excess energy. ) Rossi has a vacuum pump (might be a water jet pump) inside the wall r behind it, where the steam oulet hose is inserted. Most water is sucked out instead vaporized and this also explains dry steam n the remainig volume. ) Instead the lead shielding Rossi might use a biphase thermal storage aterial to surpress quick temperature variations. The 1MW demo is most suspicious to me, because nobody made remarks about xtraordinary heat at the radiators behind the pressboard fence. The area inside was about 25 square meters. 470 kW is enough to heat a cathedral with a footprint of some 100 quaremeters. ot flimmering air like this above a tin roof in summer should have been here. hy was the temperature 1-2 metres above the pressboard jail not measured? 470 kW is roughly equivalent to an air stream of 4 cubic metres per econd, heated from 20 centigrade to 100 centigrade. 70 kW is equivalent to 300 litres of dry saturated steam per second at ir pressure. hy didnt Rossi release the steam into the sky at the end of the demo? his would have been an impressive scenario and worldwide attention and sensational videos published would have been sure! Please excuse my english I am not native english spoken. Best, Peter
Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality
Am 05.11.2011 15:31, schrieb Terry Blanton: On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 6:39 AM, Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: I have delivered a perfect explanation how to fake the energy (sucking water out by vacuum and a hidden switch that activates the heater when nobody watches the power) and you consistently ignore it or you make up weak excuses to explain it away. Have you ever worked around large diesel generators? If you had you would know that you don't have to watch them to know when a large load has been engaged. It would be obvious to anyone within earshot that AR had flicked the switch. Sorry, try again. Not much load change will happen when the water is not evaporated, but sucked. How did the water flow back into the tank? The pressure was only 20mm watercolumn over air pressure. Rossi was asked this at his forum and his strange answer was the pump that pumped the water into the reactor was pumping it. If the pump has sucked out the water, then the tube is empty, filled with steam, but not much water was evaporated. Not much power required. Possibly some heating, but not 470 kW. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality
You have got to be kidding- Dave -Original Message- From: Vorl Bek vorl@antichef.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:46 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 6:39 AM, Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: I have delivered a perfect explanation how to fake the energy (sucking water out by vacuum and a hidden switch that activates the heater when nobody watches the power) and you consistently ignore it or you make up weak excuses to explain it away. Have you ever worked around large diesel generators? If you had you would know that you don't have to watch them to know when a large load has been engaged. It would be obvious to anyone within earshot that AR had flicked the switch. Rossi could have had an extra, secret, load engaged all the time. hen he flicked the switch to 'off', the secret load was isconnected, leaving the rest of the load, including the ecats.
Re: [Vo]:Did anyone hear about Miley's Pd-Zr results?
Miley says the results with 100 to 300 W are new. He has not had time to update the slides with these results. I hope to get more details from him next week. I will report them here. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality
Dear Peter, Rossi did not specify whether the 20 mm was absolute or above atmospheric. It is obvious that it is above atmospheric. This pressure is required to force the water through the dissipaters and into the open bin. And yes, the pumps do indirectly force the water back to the bin. They force water into the ECATs which then proceed to the open water tank. I think you intentionally like to suggest ways to scam just to get us to spend our time rebutting your suggestions. Is this your agenda? Dave -Original Message- From: Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:13 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality Am 05.11.2011 15:31, schrieb Terry Blanton: On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 6:39 AM, Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: I have delivered a perfect explanation how to fake the energy (sucking water out by vacuum and a hidden switch that activates the heater when nobody watches the power) and you consistently ignore it or you make up weak excuses to explain it away. Have you ever worked around large diesel generators? If you had you would know that you don't have to watch them to know when a large load has been engaged. It would be obvious to anyone within earshot that AR had flicked the switch. Sorry, try again. ot much load change will happen when the water is not evaporated, but ucked. ow did the water flow back into the tank? The pressure was only 20mm atercolumn over air pressure. ossi was asked this at his forum and his strange answer was the pump hat pumped the water into the reactor was pumping it. If the pump has sucked out the water, then the tube is empty, filled ith steam, but not much water was evaporated. ot much power required. ossibly some heating, but not 470 kW. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality
Am 05.11.2011 16:23, schrieb David Roberson: Dear Peter, Rossi did not specify whether the 20 mm was absolute or above atmospheric. Of course yes. At 20mm absolute pressure the water would evaporate by ambient heat ;-) It is obvious that it is above atmospheric. This pressure is required to force the water through the dissipaters and into the open bin. The tanks water level was more than 20mm obove the steam outlet. This is visible in the video. Dont you know very basic rules about prossure distribution and communicating columns? And yes, the pumps do indirectly force the water back to the bin. They force water into the ECATs which then proceed to the open water tank. Only Rossi can understand how this was achieved. I think you intentionally like to suggest ways to scam just to get us to spend our time rebutting your suggestions. Is this your agenda? Yes, I think about serious possibilities how to do a scam. Is there anything illegitime with this? Even Rossi must think about this when he wants to do a serious, evident and honest proof. Everybody must think about this when he is serious. It is always said scam is impossible, and this is so untrue! Peter Dave -Original Message- From: Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:13 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality Am 05.11.2011 15:31, schrieb Terry Blanton: On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 6:39 AM, Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de mailto:peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: I have delivered a perfect explanation how to fake the energy (sucking water out by vacuum and a hidden switch that activates the heater when nobody watches the power) and you consistently ignore it or you make up weak excuses to explain it away. Have you ever worked around large diesel generators? If you had you would know that you don't have to watch them to know when a large load has been engaged. It would be obvious to anyone within earshot that AR had flicked the switch. Sorry, try again. Not much load change will happen when the water is not evaporated, but sucked. How did the water flow back into the tank? The pressure was only 20mm watercolumn over air pressure. Rossi was asked this at his forum and his strange answer was the pump that pumped the water into the reactor was pumping it. If the pump has sucked out the water, then the tube is empty, filled with steam, but not much water was evaporated. Not much power required. Possibly some heating, but not 470 kW. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality
You have got to be kidding- I was. But anything Rossi shows will be objected to, and holes will be picked in it, and they should be. He could long ago have had independent labs test a small ecat; why didn't he? He comes across as someone who is deluded or is a conman.
Re: [Vo]:Did anyone hear about Miley's Pd-Zr results?
That is excellent news Jed. Supporting evidence is beginning to come forward now that Rossi has began to convince the world that this Cold Fusion stuff might be possible after all. I wonder how long these new revelations would have remained hidden from view had Rossi not cracked open the door? Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:24 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Did anyone hear about Miley's Pd-Zr results? Miley says the results with 100 to 300 W are new. He has not had time to update the slides with these results. I hope to get more details from him next week. I will report them here. - Jed
[Vo]: More ECAT Gold
I have completed my review of the data collected during the October 6 test of the self sustaining ECAT. This has been an interesting endeavor that has convinced me that Rossi actually has achieved his goal. There is still gold hidden within the graph of T2 versus Time, but I will leave that for others to mine. Dave --- The October test of the latest version of the ECAT generated a large volume of data that I have mined extensively in my quest to understand some of the characteristics of the device. Most of the low hanging fruit has now been plucked and the task has become far more difficult. There is however one more item that I wish to hypothesize upon. I have been gazing at the last plateau of the curve defining the temperature within the ECAT (T2) as a function of time. Obtain the high definition version of this graph from one of my previous documents as a reference. This can be found at http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3303817.ece/BINARY/Updated+analysis+Ecat+Oct+6+Roberson+%28pdf%29. Locate the beginning of the plateau at time stamp 25000 and follow it to the end of the test procedure at approximately 3 seconds. This is the region under focus. The portion of the curve that begins at around 13000 seconds into the experiment demonstrates a long time constant that continues at least until 22000 seconds. After this time, the temperature curve begins to flatten off and stays flat until the beginning of the region of interest for this document. This rise has been a thorn in the side of many of our members that seems to defy explanation. One may be at hand. First, you must realize that the ECAT core is operating in a stable mode. By this, I mean that its output power is probably following an exponential decay as it slowly cools down during self sustaining mode. The rate of cooling is indicated by the large time constant that I referred to above. As example, at time 13000 the temperature of the water bath is approximately 121 degrees C. By the time that this time constant is hidden within the new effect at 22000 seconds, the T2 reading has decayed to 117.5 C. There seems to be insufficient data available to readily calculate the power associated with this temperature. But other indications act as our guide. Second, I used the readings at around time stamp 15420 to arrive at my estimate of the power capability of the ECAT. The reasons for this choice of time for the calculation is complex and I will explain them if absolutely necessary and then by direct email only. The high temperature associated with this reading strongly suggests that the output stream into the heat exchanger is totally vapor. Remember that the power is dropping off according to an exponential decay which results in a significant power delta as time progresses. Allow your thoughts to follow the curve T2 from 15420 forward until you just arrive at the beginning of the anomalous rise in temperature at time stamp 24000 seconds. I contend that this rise does not reflect an increase in output power from the core but is in fact an illusion. It is true that the energy contained within the water bath has increased due to a higher temperature and pressure reading, but this does not prove that the power output of the core has increased. It is my hypothesis that the action of the output section causes the observation according to the following mechanism. Core output power drops steadily with time by the relationship above. As this power drops, the power absorbed by the water follows as this is the only outlet for the energy from the core. Less and less boiling results as the power slowly decays. Initially, a hurricane of vapor forces its way into the output port keeping most of the water out of its path. This very dry vapor causes any water contained within to flash instantly into steam as it exits the check valve. As time proceeds forward, the hurricane becomes merely a bad storm and continues to have less strength. I suspect that the slowly rising edge starting at time mark 24000 and continuing to 25500 represents the transition region between virtually total vapor and a phase mix heavy in water. The pressure is climbing as the output valve passage becomes clogged with water. At first this low quality mix will all flash into steam upon exiting the valve, but eventually water remains. As the power continues to fall long enough, the output of the ECAT will become water at a temperature elevated above 100 C. A small portion of this hot water will continue to flash into vapor upon exit of the check valve which can then keep the water stream moving throughout the heat exchanger and onward to the plumbing sink. As this time approaches, the input region of the heat exchanger will exhibit
Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality
Peter, I must go now, but will answer your questions later. Do you think Rossi is referring to water at 20 mm? Some would refer to mercury Dave -Original Message- From: Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:38 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality Am 05.11.2011 16:23, schrieb David Roberson: Dear Peter, Rossi did not specify whether the 20 mm was absolute or above atmospheric. Of course yes. At 20mm absolute pressure the water would evaporate by ambient heat ;-) It is obvious that it is above atmospheric. This pressure is required to force the water through the dissipaters and into the open bin. The tanks water level was more than 20mm obove the steam outlet. This is visible in the video. Dont you know very basic rules about prossure distribution and communicating columns? And yes, the pumps do indirectly force the water back to the bin. They force water into the ECATs which then proceed to the open water tank. Only Rossi can understand how this was achieved. I think you intentionally like to suggest ways to scam just to get us to spend our time rebutting your suggestions. Is this your agenda? Yes, I think about serious possibilities how to do a scam. Is there anything illegitime with this? Even Rossi must think about this when he wants to do a serious, evident and honest proof. Everybody must think about this when he is serious. It is always said scam is impossible, and this is so untrue! Peter Dave -Original Message- From: Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:13 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality Am 05.11.2011 15:31, schrieb Terry Blanton: On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 6:39 AM, Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: I have delivered a perfect explanation how to fake the energy (sucking water out by vacuum and a hidden switch that activates the heater when nobody watches the power) and you consistently ignore it or you make up weak excuses to explain it away. Have you ever worked around large diesel generators? If you had you would know that you don't have to watch them to know when a large load has been engaged. It would be obvious to anyone within earshot that AR had flicked the switch. Sorry, try again. ot much load change will happen when the water is not evaporated, but ucked. ow did the water flow back into the tank? The pressure was only 20mm atercolumn over air pressure. ossi was asked this at his forum and his strange answer was the pump hat pumped the water into the reactor was pumping it. If the pump has sucked out the water, then the tube is empty, filled ith steam, but not much water was evaporated. ot much power required. ossibly some heating, but not 470 kW. Peter
Re: [Vo]:How to post this on Krivit's Forum? Some Thoughts about Rossi.
Asking about the heat from the dissipaters is a reasonable question. Why don't you email some of the people who attended the Oct 28 demo with a few questions? I emailed Mats and will reply here with any response. You can even ask Rossi on his forum--he is gracious with his responses to polite (hint) questions. With the numbers of people in attendance, someone will surely answer that question. On the other hand, the secret heater remote control is ridiculous, IMHO. - Brad
Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality
I agree he does act strange. That seems to be his personality. We all have our quirks. I would love for him to do as you suggest, but he does not do things to suit either you or I. There are holes to pick in every experiment ever conducted as far as I know. We need to have a reasonable level of acceptance. Maybe that has not been reached so far. Dave -Original Message- From: Vorl Bek vorl@antichef.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:39 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality You have got to be kidding- I was. But anything Rossi shows will be objected to, and holes ill be picked in it, and they should be. He could long ago have had independent labs test a small ecat; why idn't he? He comes across as someone who is deluded or is a conman.
Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality
Rossi could have a splitted conciousness. One part of his brain constructs master-scams and the other part thinks this are divine revelations from upper regions and build the devices without understanding and believes the results ;-) Stuff like this does happen. He does too often give impossible answers as if he did not understand the device. Am 05.11.2011 16:35, schrieb Peter Heckert: Am 05.11.2011 16:23, schrieb David Roberson: Dear Peter, Rossi did not specify whether the 20 mm was absolute or above atmospheric. Of course yes. At 20mm absolute pressure the water would evaporate by ambient heat ;-) It is obvious that it is above atmospheric. This pressure is required to force the water through the dissipaters and into the open bin. The tanks water level was more than 20mm obove the steam outlet. This is visible in the video. Dont you know very basic rules about prossure distribution and communicating columns? And yes, the pumps do indirectly force the water back to the bin. They force water into the ECATs which then proceed to the open water tank. Only Rossi can understand how this was achieved. I think you intentionally like to suggest ways to scam just to get us to spend our time rebutting your suggestions. Is this your agenda? Yes, I think about serious possibilities how to do a scam. Is there anything illegitime with this? Even Rossi must think about this when he wants to do a serious, evident and honest proof. Everybody must think about this when he is serious. It is always said scam is impossible, and this is so untrue! Peter Dave -Original Message- From: Peter Heckert peter.heck...@arcor.de To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, Nov 5, 2011 11:13 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality Am 05.11.2011 15:31, schrieb Terry Blanton: On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 6:39 AM, Peter Heckertpeter.heck...@arcor.de mailto:peter.heck...@arcor.de wrote: I have delivered a perfect explanation how to fake the energy (sucking water out by vacuum and a hidden switch that activates the heater when nobody watches the power) and you consistently ignore it or you make up weak excuses to explain it away. Have you ever worked around large diesel generators? If you had you would know that you don't have to watch them to know when a large load has been engaged. It would be obvious to anyone within earshot that AR had flicked the switch. Sorry, try again. Not much load change will happen when the water is not evaporated, but sucked. How did the water flow back into the tank? The pressure was only 20mm watercolumn over air pressure. Rossi was asked this at his forum and his strange answer was the pump that pumped the water into the reactor was pumping it. If the pump has sucked out the water, then the tube is empty, filled with steam, but not much water was evaporated. Not much power required. Possibly some heating, but not 470 kW. Peter
Re: [Vo]:Some thoughts about Rossi's personality
Am 05.11.2011 16:49, schrieb David Roberson: Peter, I must go now, but will answer your questions later. Do you think Rossi is referring to water at 20 mm? Some would refer to mercury He explicitely wrote water column in his forum.
[Vo]:U. Bologna press office statement
This statement has been added to some of the articles on Rossi, such as the Daily Mail one. I assume it is really from the press office. It sounds like it: The University of Bologna is not involved on E-Cat experiments conducted by Leonardo Corp., the company owned by Andrea Rossi. The University of Bologna states also that: 1) none of the experiments made with E-Cat (including that of 28th October 2011) has been carried out at the University of Bologna or by any of its scientists; 2) the University of Bologna (Department of Physics) is ready to carry out direct experiments on the E-Cat as soon as the contract signed with EFA Srl (Andrea Rossi's Italian company) will be put in effect: this is the only reason why the University of Bologna researchers attended as observers to E-Cat experiments. The University of Bologna is carefully following the situation development. - University of Bologna Press Office, Bologna, Italy, 5/11/2011 5:20
Re: [Vo]:U. Bologna press office statement
I guess they haven't gotten their check yet. T
[Vo]:Thoughts on IRH
Hi, It just occurred to me that in IRH the proton is revolving very fast around the electron. The back of an envelope yields a kinetic energy of 291 eV. With that amount of kinetic energy, and at that orbital frequency, it may have a chance of tunneling into another nucleus in a reasonable time, particularly if the other nucleus has a low atomic number. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Could undetected nuclear isomers explain any LENR?
In reply to Danny Ross Lunsford's message of Fri, 4 Nov 2011 20:33:53 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] This is sort of what seems most natural to me. Something is happening on either side of NI62, and it gets into a cyclic state - once in a while by the magic of QM it overshoots and you get copper, or undershoots and you get iron. But most of the time it bounces back and forth. Some oscillatory state of the nucleus is being excited and it doesn't know which side of the binding-energy-per-nucleon to be on. On either side of Ni62 lie Cu62 and Co62. The energy difference between Cu62 and Ni62 is over 4 MeV. That between Ni62 Co62 is over 5 MeV. IMO there isn't going to be any oscillation to speak of. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Thoughts on IRH
IRH sounds like an atomic version of a geocentric solar system. Harry On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 5:47 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Hi, It just occurred to me that in IRH the proton is revolving very fast around the electron. The back of an envelope yields a kinetic energy of 291 eV. With that amount of kinetic energy, and at that orbital frequency, it may have a chance of tunneling into another nucleus in a reasonable time, particularly if the other nucleus has a low atomic number. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:wiki entry survived a deletion request
Hi, On 5-11-2011 2:50, Jed Rothwell wrote: Here is an interesting comment in the Wikipedia discussion from someone who claims he or she was present at the Oct. 6 test. Does anyone know what kettle stone means? Deposits from evaporated water? ... --Kv1970 A couple of remarks: 1: Kettle stone is a fairly blunt translation of the word ketelsteen, which is used in the Dutch language in the Netherlands and the (Northern) Flemish half of Belgium. Correct word should be limescale. 2: On the observer list was a person with the following name: Koen Vandenwalle (Production Engineer, Volvo, Ghent Belgium) 3: Ghent is residing in the Flemish part of Belgium. Ergo ... B.t.w. I remember that as a child we had a metal kettle for boiling hot water for a pot of tea in which ketelsteen appeared and if I'm not mistaken a special kind of egg-shaped object resided in this kettle; this egg-shaped object had a mesh structure with as purpose to collect all the limescale during the boiling of the water and had regularly to be cleaned with acetic acid. Kind regards, MoB
Re: [Vo]:Thoughts on IRH
In reply to Harry Veeder's message of Sat, 5 Nov 2011 21:03:06 -0400: Hi, [snip] IRH sounds like an atomic version of a geocentric solar system. Indeed! :) Harry On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 5:47 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote: Hi, It just occurred to me that in IRH the proton is revolving very fast around the electron. The back of an envelope yields a kinetic energy of 291 eV. With that amount of kinetic energy, and at that orbital frequency, it may have a chance of tunneling into another nucleus in a reasonable time, particularly if the other nucleus has a low atomic number. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Nickel enrichment : is a liquid-phase Calutron possible?
In reply to Berke Durak's message of Fri, 4 Nov 2011 22:06:25 -0400: Hi, [snip] If the assumption is that Ni64 is the only isotope that is reacting, then clearly the reaction itself is already selective of that isotope. So why bother enriching at all? Just use native Ni, and let the reaction itself select the isotopes it wants. Whatever is left after months/years of use can then be returned to the market for normal use. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Nickel enrichment : is a liquid-phase Calutron possible?
Robin van Spaandonk wrote: So why bother enriching at all? Rossi himself stated that the fuel is enriched, and that the energy cost for enriching it for a 1 MW set of reactor is (only!) 200 W.h. By analogy with classical Uranium nuclear reactors, I can only assume that the reactive isotope ratio in natural nickel is not enough for self-sustained operation. -- Berke Durak
[Vo]:Krivit's transcript of Rossi's Ah Ha moment, a cheap shot. (Part 1 of 2)
In reference to Mr. Krivit's Oct 30 blog: http://blog.newenergytimes.com/ Before I embark on what I perceive to have been a deliberate exploitation of Rossi's broken English I want to briefly focus on Krivit's self-perceived powers of prediction. Krivit states: As I predicted on Thursday night, promoter Andrea Rossi's final demonstration of a series of boxes of pipes and wires did not light any bulb or turn any motor. Again, he failed at science, and he failed to deliver a technological device. I believe it was common knowledge that Rossi was building the equivalent of a 1 megawatt thermal reactor to do nothing more than heat water. My impression was that prior to the demo there may have some speculation as to whether Rossi would attempt to generate steam or just make a lot of hot water. Be that as it may, I don't recall Rossi ever planning to produce electricity from generated steam, presumably in order to power light bulbs or motors. Granted, while it might have been impressive to see a bunch of bright lights or a whirring motor that never appeared to have been Rossi's intent. Even if Rossi had powered a bunch of light bulbs or a motor I doubt their inclusion would have contributed anything useful in the scientific sense. Skeptics (and that obviously now includes Krivit) would have, as they have in the past, continued to doubt Rossi's claims. They would have continued to cry foul and scam precisely because Rossi's demonstrations, as they always have in the past, continued to avoid following adequate scientific protocols. However, because it was common knowledge as to what Rossi was planning to demonstrate I find it very odd that Krivit seems to be self-congratulating himself for predicting that there were no light bulbs or running motors. It was a frivolous and meaningless prediction for Krivit to have broadcast to his readers. ... And now, on to what I really wanted to discuss. Krivit goes on in the same Oct 30 blog to say: Visually, Rossi exhibits absolute confidence. Yet listen carefully when I interview him on camera and ask him a crucial question: He is vague, he stutters and he is logically inconsistent, even within a 12-minute period. I asked him whether he had a specific moment of discovery in his low-energy nuclear reaction research. Yes, because I burned a finger, Rossi said. At this point I would recommend to any who might be interested in what Rossi actually said, view the actual You-Tube conversation of Rossi's Ah ha moment. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II3NxxyxQ0I ...and be sure to focus on Rossi's actual comments, the Ah Ha! moment starting around 10:19. Krivit's transcript of Rossi's Ah Ha! is meticulously transcribed, down to each and every single utterance and inflection: Can you tell me more about that moment? [Krivit] asked. Rossi replied, Yes, uhh, because, umm, I was, uh, uh, working with a, with a small reactor which was made of, uh, umm, of copper, was made of copper, uh, and with a small lead shielding, and I was giving energy with a resistance, uh, giving, eh, some sort of temperature. At a certain point, the, the temperature raised very suddenly, and, uh, and I had in my, the, the, uh, left finger of, uh, of, uh, the, the, the, the finger of, umm, uh, the index of my left hand, umm, sit on a, a part of this small reactor which was as big as this, and I burned the top of the finger. For Krivit to have produced a technically accurate word-for-word translation of Rossi's broken English, a typical Rossi-reply which was filled with Italian inflections, and pauses, and umms, and as and ehs, was in my opinion deliberately manipulative. Krivit intentionally, and with forethought, exploited Rossi's inability to adequately express himself in a foreign language. He did so as a pretext to generate innuendo that Rossi displays confused thinking patterns. It is a cheap shot. It is despicable journalism. What I find incredibly egregious about what Krivit did is based on the fact that Krivit obviously knows that Rossi does not possess a good command of the English language. Krivit also realizes that many readers will simply read the transcript of Rossi's statement and quickly conclude, Jeez! This Italian is a real wacko! I suspect Krivit is banking on the hope that many readers would simply jump to such a conclusion without even bothering to watch the video of Rossi struggling to form proper English syntax. Therefore, for Krivit to have exploited Rossi in such a manner was opportunistic and IMO intentionally manipulative. I suspect it was done to bolster Krivit's assessment that Rossi must be confused about many things. I can only assume Krivit truly believes that he was doing his readers a service, due to his perceived prowess of analyzing the perceive analytical prowess of others, or the lack of. On that point I beg to differ, strenuously so. I disagree due to my own prior
[Vo]:Krivit's transcript of Rossi's Ah Ha moment, a cheap shot. (Part 2 of 2)
When I read accounts about Rossi's quirky behavior, his alleged faults and past transgressions, I immediately find myself thinking of a few faults of my own. There by the grace of god go I. For example, my own command of the English language, my speech can occasionally be filled with halting pauses - and keep in mind the fact that English is my primary language. I used to stutter all the time when I was a small child. Who knows why. I sort of grew out of it, but not entirely. Now, I just tend to pause when I'm having a moment of difficulty trying to articulate something that feels, for whatever reason, overwhelmingly complex to verbalize. Needless to say, the gift of oration as practiced in front of others is probably not one of my strong suits. Neither is my capacity to learn and speak a foreign language. My grasp of Spanish is abysmal, even after having lived three years in El Salvador and going to a bi-lingual school. Earlier in my life, particularly in my 20s and 30s, I had my share of emotional issues to work through. Like who didn't! I felt vulnerable, lost, and terribly isolated. Misunderstood. Like many troubled youth, sometimes in my desperation I seemed to wander aimlessly into paths of self destruction. At times, I sought counsel. But most of the time I simply had to muddle as best as I could through a plethora of angst of my own making. Shit happened to me. Actually, shit happens to all of us on this planet, so why should I take my own shit personally. When I started realize the fact that it might be a good idea not to take my own shit so personally... so self-indulgently, it would seem that a great burden had been lifted from my shoulders. OTOH, some of my stronger points are that I'm an artist, a composer of music, and a computer programmer. I have a decent grasp of math, algebra and trigonometry. (but not calculus!) I've always loved science and science fiction. Despite possessing a mild form of dyslexia all my life I've forced myself to write on a regular basis in order to better express my thoughts. By profession I have been a Project Leader of Information Systems for the State of Wisconsin. I have made most of my living performing the work of computer programmer and as a PL. Curiously, I noticed that very early on in my professional computer career the intuitive/artistic aspects of my nature started to influence the way I assembled complex computer programs and systems. Decades later, that same kind of intuition continues to influence my efforts to develop complex computer simulations, such as in the field of celestial mechanics. Without a sense of intuition I firmly believe that my grasp of computer logic alone would not have been sufficient write any kind of useful code and ferret out unexpected surprises. Now, many might be asking themselves, why the hell am I incessantly blathering on about my past faults and achievements. Isn't this subject thread 'sposed about Krivit and Rossi? Please humor me for a spell longer. Krivit goes on to conclude in his blog: Rossi is a convicted [criminal guilty of] serial fraud. His discovery is that, with enough chutzpah, one can convince a number of people that an electric tea kettle is a new kind of nuclear reactor. ... to which I immediately reflect on my own past transgressions. I find myself saying: Big frigg'n deal! Who hasn't read about Rossi prior run-ins with the law. If I were to define myself... no... IF I WERE TO CONTINUE TO JUDGE MYSELF based on my own past transgressions, I probably would have put myself six foot under decades ago. Fortunately for me, the fates seemed to have conspired against my best laid intentions. ;-) Meanwhile, Jed recently posted an interesting observation concerning his own observations of Krivit's perceptions. http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg54277.html Rossi has many outstanding qualities, and many faults too, but he does not have a single one of the qualities ascribed to him by Krivit or Heckert. To that I would add: It would probably be wise to assemble a careful assessment of one's own personal qualities, both the good and bad ones prior assembling the assessed qualities of others. It would also be wise to first recognize and face one's own personal demons head on. Failing to do so typically results in projecting them onto the faces and actions of others. And that invariably tends to cause one to become terrified of the projected actions of others. .Strange how all those exorcised demons now seem to want to come back to repossess them, as if they are out to get them. If we MUST go about the business of assessing Rossi, I suggest we judge the merits of Rossi's current abilities, (or the lack of them), and not Rossi's past transgressions. Under the circumstances, one of best ways of ascertaining the merits of Rossi's current abilities would be to follow the money trail. Go find out who purchased Rossi's 1 MW eCat. Ask
Re: [Vo]:Could undetected nuclear isomers explain any LENR?
Probably, Robin, but the relatively recent discovery of the 65Fe isomer (which likely has been lurking in the universe for a long time) makes me wonder if other long-lived isomers have escaped attention, and written off as statistical errors in mass measurements. Coaxing 1 gram of 65Fe to ground state would release considerable energy. Lots of molecular examples of long-lived metastable systems exist (e.g., ammonia NH3, and other chiral molecules). I am guessing that the decay products would be very hard to calculate - especially in condensed matter. I really think this explanation is quite unlikely, but why leave any stone unturned? In reply to Danny Ross Lunsford's message of Fri, 4 Nov 2011 20:33:53 -0700 (PDT): Hi, [snip] This is sort of what seems most natural to me. Something is happening on either side of NI62, and it gets into a cyclic state - once in a while by the magic of QM it overshoots and you get copper, or undershoots and you get iron. But most of the time it bounces back and forth. Some oscillatory state of the nucleus is being excited and it doesn't know which side of the binding-energy-per-nucleon to be on. On either side of Ni62 lie Cu62 and Co62. The energy difference between Cu62 and Ni62 is over 4 MeV. That between Ni62 Co62 is over 5 MeV. IMO there isn't going to be any oscillation to speak of. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Krivit's transcript of Rossi's Ah Ha moment, a cheap shot. (Part 2 of 2)
You gave me a clear understanding about Krivit's errors in his descriptions of Rossi and his huge demo -- thanks. I support public honesty about one's own explorations, handicaps, setbacks, failings, failures, previous stages of development, regrets, lessons hard and slowly learned, and positive talents that still are not highly valued in current modern technological world culture -- many handicaps and talents of emotional sensitivity, language, intuition, artistic, concentration, memory -- I am glad to see so much of my own life in yours -- I support compassion, gentleness, tolerance, forgiveness, tact, positive good humor, persistent respect, support, encouragement, appreciation, praise, gratitude, blessing, forgiveness -- towards all others without exception, with reticence about criticizing others -- our shared process of evolution is indeed intimately, radically intertwined, as each is all of single entire unified creative fractal hyperinfinity. No situation can be accurately described, assessed, communicated, predicted, or predicted. No such thing as evidence can exist in forever timelessly radically spontaneous dreams. There can be and is not ever any such thing as a normal situation, individual, or process. It is a remarkable achievement to find ourselves evolving within a shared arbitrary virtual reality simulation that seems to us, lost within it, unavoidably body based, within a convincing 3D setting with one-way linear flow of causality, where sentient beings suffer. We are indeed such stuff as dreams are made of... Everyone is family. Graduating from the simulation is the only final outcome for everyone without exception, because there is only one REAL. within mutual service, Rich Murray On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 7:33 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: When I read accounts about Rossi's quirky behavior, his alleged faults and past transgressions, I immediately find myself thinking of a few faults of my own. ** ** There by the grace of god go I. ** ** For example, my own command of the English language, my speech can occasionally be filled with halting pauses – and keep in mind the fact that English is my primary language. I used to stutter all the time when I was a small child. Who knows why. I sort of grew out of it, but not entirely. Now, I just tend to pause when I'm having a moment of difficulty trying to articulate something that feels, for whatever reason, overwhelmingly complex to verbalize. Needless to say, the gift of oration as practiced in front of others is probably not one of my strong suits. Neither is my capacity to learn and speak a foreign language. My grasp of Spanish is abysmal, even after having lived three years in El Salvador and going to a bi-lingual school. ** ** Earlier in my life, particularly in my 20s and 30s, I had my share of emotional issues to work through. Like who didn't! I felt vulnerable, lost, and terribly isolated. Misunderstood. Like many troubled youth, sometimes in my desperation I seemed to wander aimlessly into paths of self destruction. At times, I sought counsel. But most of the time I simply had to muddle as best as I could through a plethora of angst of my own making. Shit happened to me. Actually, shit happens to all of us on this planet, so why should I take my own shit personally. When I started realize the fact that it might be a good idea not to take my own shit so personally... so self-indulgently, it would seem that a great burden had been lifted from my shoulders. ** ** OTOH, some of my stronger points are that I'm an artist, a composer of music, and a computer programmer. I have a decent grasp of math, algebra and trigonometry. (but not calculus!) I've always loved science and science fiction. Despite possessing a mild form of dyslexia all my life I've forced myself to write on a regular basis in order to better express my thoughts. By profession I have been a Project Leader of Information Systems for the State of Wisconsin. I have made most of my living performing the work of computer programmer and as a PL. ** ** Curiously, I noticed that very early on in my professional computer career the intuitive/artistic aspects of my nature started to influence the way I assembled complex computer programs and systems. Decades later, that same kind of intuition continues to influence my efforts to develop complex computer simulations, such as in the field of celestial mechanics. Without a sense of intuition I firmly believe that my grasp of computer logic alone would not have been sufficient write any kind of useful code and ferret out unexpected surprises. ** ** Now, many might be asking themselves, why the hell am I incessantly blathering on about my past faults and achievements. Isn't this subject thread 'sposed about Krivit and Rossi? Please humor me for a spell longer. ** ** Krivit goes on to
Re: [Vo]:Krivit's transcript of Rossi's Ah Ha moment, a cheap shot. (Part 2 of 2)
Hi, Don't know if this is of any help at all, but take a look at the following page. How to tell if someone is telling a lie or lying: Viewzone See: http://viewzone2.com/liarx.html Kind regards, MoB
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Nickel enrichment : is a liquid-phase Calutron possible?
In reply to Berke Durak's message of Sat, 5 Nov 2011 22:03:31 -0400: Hi, [snip] Robin van Spaandonk wrote: So why bother enriching at all? Rossi himself stated that the fuel is enriched, and that the energy cost for enriching it for a 1 MW set of reactor is (only!) 200 W.h. By analogy with classical Uranium nuclear reactors, I can only assume that the reactive isotope ratio in natural nickel is not enough for self-sustained operation. Isotope enrichment in Uranium is necessary, because the fissioning nuclei provide the neutrons that keep the reaction going. However in fusion reactions there are no neutrons provided by the reaction, and the reaction isn't maintained by a neutron chain reaction, hence the analogy doesn't hold up. The reaction is maintained by external factors which makes the isotope ratio irrelevant. *IMO* Rossi just said that enrichment took place to throw others off the trail, and because he had only just discovered that reactions with isotopes other than Ni62 Ni64 produce gammas which can't be easily shielded. Since he wasn't seeing the gammas, he simply said that they enriched the Ni (rather than admit that he didn't really have a clue what was going on). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Rossi Nickel enrichment : is a liquid-phase Calutron possible?
In reply to mix...@bigpond.com's message of Sun, 06 Nov 2011 16:06:41 +1100: Hi, [snip] *IMO* Rossi just said that enrichment took place to throw others off the trail, and because he had only just discovered that reactions with isotopes other than Ni62 Ni64 produce gammas which can't be easily shielded. Since he wasn't seeing the gammas, he simply said that they enriched the Ni (rather than admit that he didn't really have a clue what was going on). I should add that at the time he was also trying to publicly defend his previous statement that Cu was produced, and that the copper that had been found had an isotope ratio close to natural . Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Could undetected nuclear isomers explain any LENR?
In reply to pagnu...@htdconnect.com's message of Sat, 5 Nov 2011 23:35:00 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] Probably, Robin, but the relatively recent discovery of the 65Fe isomer (which likely has been lurking in the universe for a long time) makes me wonder if other long-lived isomers have escaped attention, and written off as statistical errors in mass measurements. I suppose this even probable, but why choose Ni62 specifically? (Note that Fe65 is on the heavy side of the Fe isotopes). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Could undetected nuclear isomers explain any LENR?
I am not sure which, if any, nickel isotopes admit isomeric states. Perhaps, electrodes, container walls, or contaminants in nickel (or palladium) could be the source of some yet unidentified isomers. I am quite perplexed that isomeric-65Fe went undetected for so long. Perhaps others have also escaped notice? If they exist at all, getting long-lived nuclear isomers to relax to ground state is probably difficult, if not impossible. But, if it is possible, maybe some LENR experiments have accidentally stumbled upon a way? In reply to pagnu...@htdconnect.com's message of Sat, 5 Nov 2011 23:35:00 -0400 (EDT): Hi, [snip] Probably, Robin, but the relatively recent discovery of the 65Fe isomer (which likely has been lurking in the universe for a long time) makes me wonder if other long-lived isomers have escaped attention, and written off as statistical errors in mass measurements. I suppose this even probable, but why choose Ni62 specifically? (Note that Fe65 is on the heavy side of the Fe isotopes). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
