Re: [Vo]:Independent validation of thermal anomalies from Celani's constantan wires
On 2012-12-05 16:13, Akira Shirakawa wrote: http://i.imgur.com/yA7HS.jpg I tried making an improved, clearer chart with data from this slide, showing the relationship between wire temperature and excess power. I've also extrapolated an additional data point at 400 °C: http://i.imgur.com/pDJoY.png Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:oops
No longer bogosity: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2241525/The-Boeing-blitzing-drone-cripple-nations-electronics.html Down the years and across the universe, the heroes of science-fiction classics from Dan Dare to Star Wars and The Matrix have fought intergalactic battles with weapons that wipe out enemy electronics at the touch of a button. Now scientists have turned fantasy into reality by developing a missile that targets buildings with microwaves that disable computers but don’t harm people. Aircraft manufacturer Boeing successfully tested the weapon on a one-hour flight during which it knocked out the computers of an entire military compound in the Utah desert. On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Interesting – yes. Bogosity index – extreme. A tomahawk cruise missile leaves no massive contrail. Most experts agreed the amount of visible vapor was either coming from a solid fuel rocket or a large jet. The contrail from a cruise missile would be two orders of magnitude less visible, based on the fuel burned and it would be lower on the horizon. A blogger did find a commercial flight that could have been responsible, but why this info did not immediately come from the FAA is a mystery. Another blogger suggested it was Meg Whitman’s reaction to the final bill from her campaign …. From: Terry Blanton This is a far more interesting explanation: Chinese EMP Attack Prompts US Missile Strike After Cruise Ship Crippled http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1421.htm T
Re: [Vo]:Independent validation of thermal anomalies from Celani's constantan wires
Jeff Berkowitz pdx...@gmail.com wrote: Now we have this new result showing ~1 watt of excess heat at some high operating power (not stated but sufficient to raise the cell temp to 350C). By implication, I am asked to believe that the team making the measurement can somehow achieve absolute accuracy significantly better than MFMP have achieved with their open, consultative, clearly documented process. Sorry, I choose not to believe this right now. On what basis? Do you know anything about their calorimetry? With the right kind of calorimeter, researchers can measure 0.01 W with confidence. Rob Duncan knows how to measure picowatts (10E-12 W). Unless you know a great deal about their equipment, you are presumptuous to reject their claim out of hand. The people at MFM are doing a good job, but their equipment is not expensive or high precision. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:oops
Well... Not sure how much faith to put into this kind of story, but the sad part is that the military could do this kind of RD - whereas the energy sector could not even think about it due to cost and interference from special interests - so there are scary implications that demonstrate the kind of mess this country in. Curious that they surmise that the missile payload is a super-powerful microwave oven. Geeze, why not use that kind of power supply for LENR, or hot fusion, or subcritical fission - instead of mischief (knocking out a bunch of antique computers)? -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton No longer bogosity: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2241525/The-Boeing-blitzing-d rone-cripple-nations-electronics.html Down the years and across the universe, the heroes of science-fiction classics from Dan Dare to Star Wars and The Matrix have fought intergalactic battles with weapons that wipe out enemy electronics at the touch of a button. Now scientists have turned fantasy into reality by developing a missile that targets buildings with microwaves that disable computers but don't harm people. Aircraft manufacturer Boeing successfully tested the weapon on a one-hour flight during which it knocked out the computers of an entire military compound in the Utah desert. On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Interesting - yes. Bogosity index - extreme. A tomahawk cruise missile leaves no massive contrail. Most experts agreed the amount of visible vapor was either coming from a solid fuel rocket or a large jet. The contrail from a cruise missile would be two orders of magnitude less visible, based on the fuel burned and it would be lower on the horizon. A blogger did find a commercial flight that could have been responsible, but why this info did not immediately come from the FAA is a mystery. Another blogger suggested it was Meg Whitman's reaction to the final bill from her campaign .. From: Terry Blanton This is a far more interesting explanation: Chinese EMP Attack Prompts US Missile Strike After Cruise Ship Crippled http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1421.htm T
Re: [Vo]:Bribing 2,000 climatologists - Bribing 2,000 Darwinian Evolutionists
Jed, Have you read 3 or more papers on Intelligent Design in the last 5 years? Condemnation before investigation is the height of ignorance. Albert Einstein Guess which of us both is more ignorant? I've read 3 or more papers on Darwinian Evolution is the last 5 years. How many papers in Intelligent Design have you read in your lifetime? I've even read Darwin's The origin of Species and the Descent of Man. Have you? OH... I get it. 2000 Darwinian Evolutionists are always correct cause you've not heard of any one of them threatened, bribed or coerced, although you haven't met any one of them. OK Whatever. So, why do you hold Bob Parks, Huzienga, et al, to a standard you yourself is not willing to hold yourself to? LOL Jojo PS. This question applies to all other Darwinian Evolutionist in this forum. - Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 3:40 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Bribing 2,000 climatologists Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: You could do a petition like that on cold fusion and might still find a majority of professional scientists who think that cold fusion was rejected long ago. Answers that you get can depend on the questions asked, and asking people for opinions outside their areas of expertise is asking for garbage. Exactly! Right, right, right. To reach a valid conclusion you would have add qualifying questions such as: Have you read 3 or more papers on cold fusion in the last 5 years? If the answer is no, I would toss out the rest of the questionnaire. I would be tempted to add a few multiple choice questions such as: M. C. H. McKubre of SRI is known for using what type of calorimeter: A. Seebeck. B. Mass flow. C. An ice calorimeter. D. Davis-Besse. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:oops
I would like to see the money spent on emf protection for the population. If the sun has a bad spell we may need to climb inside our Faraday cage microwave ovens for protection. Stewart Darkmattersalot.com On Thursday, December 6, 2012, Jones Beene wrote: Well... Not sure how much faith to put into this kind of story, but the sad part is that the military could do this kind of RD - whereas the energy sector could not even think about it due to cost and interference from special interests - so there are scary implications that demonstrate the kind of mess this country in. Curious that they surmise that the missile payload is a super-powerful microwave oven. Geeze, why not use that kind of power supply for LENR, or hot fusion, or subcritical fission - instead of mischief (knocking out a bunch of antique computers)? -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton No longer bogosity: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2241525/The-Boeing-blitzing-d rone-cripple-nations-electronics.html Down the years and across the universe, the heroes of science-fiction classics from Dan Dare to Star Wars and The Matrix have fought intergalactic battles with weapons that wipe out enemy electronics at the touch of a button. Now scientists have turned fantasy into reality by developing a missile that targets buildings with microwaves that disable computers but don't harm people. Aircraft manufacturer Boeing successfully tested the weapon on a one-hour flight during which it knocked out the computers of an entire military compound in the Utah desert. On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.netjavascript:; wrote: Interesting - yes. Bogosity index - extreme. A tomahawk cruise missile leaves no massive contrail. Most experts agreed the amount of visible vapor was either coming from a solid fuel rocket or a large jet. The contrail from a cruise missile would be two orders of magnitude less visible, based on the fuel burned and it would be lower on the horizon. A blogger did find a commercial flight that could have been responsible, but why this info did not immediately come from the FAA is a mystery. Another blogger suggested it was Meg Whitman's reaction to the final bill from her campaign .. From: Terry Blanton This is a far more interesting explanation: Chinese EMP Attack Prompts US Missile Strike After Cruise Ship Crippled http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1421.htm T
Re: [Vo]:oops
From Jones: Well... Not sure how much faith to put into this kind of story, but the sad part is that the military could do this kind of RD - whereas the energy sector could not even think about it due to cost and interference from special interests - so there are scary implications that demonstrate the kind of mess this country in. I suspect Paradise Lost sez it best: Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:oops
Time to get the tin-foil hats out of storage... ;-) -Mark -Original Message- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 7:44 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:oops Well... Not sure how much faith to put into this kind of story, but the sad part is that the military could do this kind of RD - whereas the energy sector could not even think about it due to cost and interference from special interests - so there are scary implications that demonstrate the kind of mess this country in. Curious that they surmise that the missile payload is a super-powerful microwave oven. Geeze, why not use that kind of power supply for LENR, or hot fusion, or subcritical fission - instead of mischief (knocking out a bunch of antique computers)? -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton No longer bogosity: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2241525/The-Boeing-blitzing-d rone-cripple-nations-electronics.html Down the years and across the universe, the heroes of science-fiction classics from Dan Dare to Star Wars and The Matrix have fought intergalactic battles with weapons that wipe out enemy electronics at the touch of a button. Now scientists have turned fantasy into reality by developing a missile that targets buildings with microwaves that disable computers but don't harm people. Aircraft manufacturer Boeing successfully tested the weapon on a one-hour flight during which it knocked out the computers of an entire military compound in the Utah desert. On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Interesting - yes. Bogosity index - extreme. A tomahawk cruise missile leaves no massive contrail. Most experts agreed the amount of visible vapor was either coming from a solid fuel rocket or a large jet. The contrail from a cruise missile would be two orders of magnitude less visible, based on the fuel burned and it would be lower on the horizon. A blogger did find a commercial flight that could have been responsible, but why this info did not immediately come from the FAA is a mystery. Another blogger suggested it was Meg Whitman's reaction to the final bill from her campaign .. From: Terry Blanton This is a far more interesting explanation: Chinese EMP Attack Prompts US Missile Strike After Cruise Ship Crippled http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1421.htm T
Re: [Vo]:WITTS 3kW Generator Video
On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 1:55 AM, Esa Ruoho esaru...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 1:22 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: I'm more interested in whether any third parties have inspected this device and provided reports. I've been in this OU biness for a while and have not seen it discussed that I can recall. Mosey on over to overunity.com and look around. If you don't see it discussed, pose the question to Stefan, the owner. Umm.. WITTS is pretty exempt from actual, reasonable forum-writing. People on Overunity / EVGRAY / Energeticforum pretty much taking WITTS to pieces due to being against Thrapp's way of thinking and his relations to religious groups. I've been following WITTS for quite some time, ever since they popped up on WaterFuelMuseum Podcasts and in that old interview with Jeane Manning. I tried to pull the URLs together way back when and wrote this: http://merlib.org/node/5589 While they (WITTS) are still going about it in a certain way (they are seeking tithes/donations to the tone of tens of millions of dollars - which is a bit .. complex .. for the everyman), they were organizing tours of their facilities so one could see for himself/herself. And the WITTS youtube page nowadays seems to be full of 3rd party reports. And there was a separate splintergroup, http://www.enlightenedtechnology.org - trying to organize up enough donations to get a quantum energy technology demonstration device built and toured around. I'll take WITTS with the hopeful/grain'o'salt method, instead of going for ad hominem attacks due to religion and having a problem with Thrapp. The link to the Jean Manning interview is broken and archive.org doesn't have it. However I was able to find it at: http://www.scribd.com/doc/32493584/Atlantis-Rising-Jeane-Manning-TimothyThrapp-Breakthrough-Inventions-Divine-Intervention The Bruce DePalma connection is interesting. The idea that WITTS is an on-going organization with 200 years of history is bizarre. While its reasonable to deride criticism of technological development on the basis of the engineer's religious beliefs, the claim that Nicola Tesla, and prior scientists, were members of an organization that exists to this day, but which has no historical record other than the testimony of one man, has the ring of an MK-ULTRA op if not outright insanity.
Re: [Vo]:oops
Your suggestion to put on the aluminum hats begs a few questions. What is the instantaneous output power of the emitter? How many joules of energy would be deposited into that hat of yours due to this device? Is the damage to the electronics permanent or does it just cause a reset? If the damage is permanent, why? I could think of many more questions, but I have a feeling that there are going to be few answers submitted. Dave -Original Message- From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 12:24 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:oops Time to get the tin-foil hats out of storage... ;-) -Mark -Original Message- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 7:44 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:oops Well... Not sure how much faith to put into this kind of story, but the sad part is that the military could do this kind of RD - whereas the energy sector could not even think about it due to cost and interference from special interests - so there are scary implications that demonstrate the kind of mess this country in. Curious that they surmise that the missile payload is a super-powerful microwave oven. Geeze, why not use that kind of power supply for LENR, or hot fusion, or subcritical fission - instead of mischief (knocking out a bunch of antique computers)? -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton No longer bogosity: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2241525/The-Boeing-blitzing-d rone-cripple-nations-electronics.html Down the years and across the universe, the heroes of science-fiction classics from Dan Dare to Star Wars and The Matrix have fought intergalactic battles with weapons that wipe out enemy electronics at the touch of a button. Now scientists have turned fantasy into reality by developing a missile that targets buildings with microwaves that disable computers but don't harm people. Aircraft manufacturer Boeing successfully tested the weapon on a one-hour flight during which it knocked out the computers of an entire military compound in the Utah desert. On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Interesting - yes. Bogosity index - extreme. A tomahawk cruise missile leaves no massive contrail. Most experts agreed the amount of visible vapor was either coming from a solid fuel rocket or a large jet. The contrail from a cruise missile would be two orders of magnitude less visible, based on the fuel burned and it would be lower on the horizon. A blogger did find a commercial flight that could have been responsible, but why this info did not immediately come from the FAA is a mystery. Another blogger suggested it was Meg Whitman's reaction to the final bill from her campaign .. From: Terry Blanton This is a far more interesting explanation: Chinese EMP Attack Prompts US Missile Strike After Cruise Ship Crippled http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1421.htm T
RE: [Vo]:oops
From the article, the damage to the electronics is permanent. My understanding is that the intense MW EM induces large voltage transients inside the ICs, probably causing dielectric breakdown or discharges inside it, ultimately 'frying the chip'. Oh, the Al-foil hats are for my computers, test equipment and cell phone, not me! ;-) -Mark From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 9:56 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:oops Your suggestion to put on the aluminum hats begs a few questions. What is the instantaneous output power of the emitter? How many joules of energy would be deposited into that hat of yours due to this device? Is the damage to the electronics permanent or does it just cause a reset? If the damage is permanent, why? I could think of many more questions, but I have a feeling that there are going to be few answers submitted. Dave -Original Message- From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 12:24 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:oops Time to get the tin-foil hats out of storage... ;-) -Mark -Original Message- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net mailto:jone...@pacbell.net? ] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 7:44 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:oops Well... Not sure how much faith to put into this kind of story, but the sad part is that the military could do this kind of RD - whereas the energy sector could not even think about it due to cost and interference from special interests - so there are scary implications that demonstrate the kind of mess this country in. Curious that they surmise that the missile payload is a super-powerful microwave oven. Geeze, why not use that kind of power supply for LENR, or hot fusion, or subcritical fission - instead of mischief (knocking out a bunch of antique computers)? -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton No longer bogosity: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2241525/The-Boeing-blitzing-d rone-cripple-nations-electronics.html Down the years and across the universe, the heroes of science-fiction classics from Dan Dare to Star Wars and The Matrix have fought intergalactic battles with weapons that wipe out enemy electronics at the touch of a button. Now scientists have turned fantasy into reality by developing a missile that targets buildings with microwaves that disable computers but don't harm people. Aircraft manufacturer Boeing successfully tested the weapon on a one-hour flight during which it knocked out the computers of an entire military compound in the Utah desert. On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Interesting - yes. Bogosity index - extreme. A tomahawk cruise missile leaves no massive contrail. Most experts agreed the amount of visible vapor was either coming from a solid fuel rocket or a large jet. The contrail from a cruise missile would be two orders of magnitude less visible, based on the fuel burned and it would be lower on the horizon. A blogger did find a commercial flight that could have been responsible, but why this info did not immediately come from the FAA is a mystery. Another blogger suggested it was Meg Whitman's reaction to the final bill from her campaign .. From: Terry Blanton This is a far more interesting explanation: Chinese EMP Attack Prompts US Missile Strike After Cruise Ship Crippled http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1421.htm T
Re: [Vo]:oops
So the damage is permanent and caused by shorting out the chip for a very short time period. I guess the power supply then completes the job by supplying the large DC current that burns out the devices. That makes sense if the instantaneous power is sufficient. Mark, I thought you were concerned about your own health! I would expect that a thin aluminum cover would easily reflect the incoming energy away from anything enclosed. Dave -Original Message- From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 1:04 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:oops From the article, the damage to the electronics is permanent. My understanding is that the intense MW EM induces large voltage transients inside the ICs, probably causing dielectric breakdown or discharges inside it, ultimately ‘frying the chip’… Oh, the Al-foil hats are for my computers, test equipment and cell phone, not me! ;-) -Mark From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 9:56 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:oops Your suggestion to put on the aluminum hats begs a few questions. What is the instantaneous output power of the emitter? How many joules of energy would be deposited into that hat of yours due to this device? Is the damage to the electronics permanent or does it just cause a reset? If the damage is permanent, why? I could think of many more questions, but I have a feeling that there are going to be few answers submitted. Dave -Original Message- From: MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 12:24 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:oops Time to get the tin-foil hats out of storage... ;-) -Mark -Original Message- From: Jones Beene [mailto:jone...@pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 7:44 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:oops Well... Not sure how much faith to put into this kind of story, but the sad part is that the military could do this kind of RD - whereas the energy sector could not even think about it due to cost and interference from special interests - so there are scary implications that demonstrate the kind of mess this country in. Curious that they surmise that the missile payload is a super-powerful microwave oven. Geeze, why not use that kind of power supply for LENR, or hot fusion, or subcritical fission - instead of mischief (knocking out a bunch of antique computers)? -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton No longer bogosity: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2241525/The-Boeing-blitzing-d rone-cripple-nations-electronics.html Down the years and across the universe, the heroes of science-fiction classics from Dan Dare to Star Wars and The Matrix have fought intergalactic battles with weapons that wipe out enemy electronics at the touch of a button. Now scientists have turned fantasy into reality by developing a missile that targets buildings with microwaves that disable computers but don't harm people. Aircraft manufacturer Boeing successfully tested the weapon on a one-hour flight during which it knocked out the computers of an entire military compound in the Utah desert. On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Interesting - yes. Bogosity index - extreme. A tomahawk cruise missile leaves no massive contrail. Most experts agreed the amount of visible vapor was either coming from a solid fuel rocket or a large jet. The contrail from a cruise missile would be two orders of magnitude less visible, based on the fuel burned and it would be lower on the horizon. A blogger did find a commercial flight that could have been responsible, but why this info did not immediately come from the FAA is a mystery. Another blogger suggested it was Meg Whitman's reaction to the final bill from her campaign .. From: Terry Blanton This is a far more interesting explanation: Chinese EMP Attack Prompts US Missile Strike After Cruise Ship Crippled http://www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1421.htm T
Re: [Vo]:WITTS 3kW Generator Video
On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 12:44 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: While its reasonable to deride criticism of technological development on the basis of the engineer's religious beliefs, the claim that Nicola Tesla, and prior scientists, were members of an organization that exists to this day, but which has no historical record other than the testimony of one man, has the ring of an MK-ULTRA op if not outright insanity. Tell that to Mitt Romney.
Re: [Vo]:WITTS 3kW Generator Video
On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 7:44 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: The idea that WITTS is an on-going organization with 200 years of history is bizarre. While its reasonable to deride criticism of technological development on the basis of the engineer's religious beliefs, the claim that Nicola Tesla, and prior scientists, were members of an organization that exists to this day, but which has no historical record other than the testimony of one man, has the ring of an MK-ULTRA op if not outright insanity. Yeah, this is the part that I don't really care about. I mean, when I spoke with them for a few hours on the phone, they said something similar to Faraday and Maxwell having been involved in this or that. I don't understand the reason for saying something like that, but I don't consider it to be any reason to not fund them, they have their own reasons for it. I don't know if it's a kind of we have 15 to 45 books kind of thing (when someone actually has 8 or 10 books), or what's going on, but overall, the u.s. peeps have neat lotteries in there (or so we poor scandinavians are lead to misbelieve) ranging from 250 to 350 million dollars as a first prize so to throw 15 or 35 million to WITTS/Thrapp people would still leave a ton of funding for other projects (such as Erik Dollard (who is on Indiegogo) and John Hutchison (who is on Gofundme). And then pick up some paypal addresses for Tom Bearden, Dale Pond, Paul Pantone and so on. Call it risk-money or what you will, but it would surely sort out the wheat from the chaff very quickly - by allowing one to directly see how these people are progressing and what they do with the money.
Re: [Vo]:Independent validation of thermal anomalies from Celani's constantan wires
At 02:54 AM 12/6/2012, you wrote: Push noise down or raise the signal a high up- this is the basic option. The first choice is passive, the second active. Which one will one lead to useful Cold Fusion? Cart before the horse, Peter. The first issues are scientific, and exploring the parameter space is *more difficult* if, at the same time, high signal is required. Pushing noise down by careful experimental design can save a lot of money and time. This is the reality, Peter: we know that the FPHE (Fleischmann-Pons Heat Effect) is real. We don't need massive results for that, the best work and most conclusive work has been with modest heat, but then correlated with helium production. We can definitely use more accuracy in this, but the limits have been on helium capture/collection/measurement, not on heat measurement, the accuracy with heat is generally already adequate. Sure, some people are going to work on increasing heat production, but increasing *absolute heat production*, we know, can easily be done with a reaction with known characteristics, simply by scaling up. However, there is a serious problem here. If the exact conditions for heat production are not known, if they depend on very difficult-to-control conditions, such as the exact size and number of cracks in palladium deuteride, as appears to be the case with the FPHE, then your scaled-up experiment might unexpectedly produce a lot more heat than you expected. It's dangerous. Pons and Fleischmann scaled *down* for exactly this reason. And running experiments by remote control behind blast barriers raises costs even further. No, first things first. We need much more exploration of the parameter space. Once we know what conditions are effective for setting up the reactions, we can then start to scale up, but that's really the last step. The main trend today is silent implicit desperation. No. It's realism: until we know the *mechanism* for the FPHE, we need basic research, and that can be -- and should be -- small-scale. If it's small scale, it makes it possible to run many more variations on an experiment, simultaneously, making the discovery of optimal operating conditions come sooner, most likely. Rossi allegedly ran a thousand experiments before he found his secret sauce. While I have no idea if he really found a secret sauce, that part of his story is plausible, at least. As far as I can tell, we don't know and have very little clue as to what the ash might be from NiH reactions. What we need for heat is enough heat to be satisfied that the reaction is real and the heat is not artifact. Sure, eventually, we will want much more than that. We want enough heat that the reaction leaves behind enough ash to be detected. If the ash is deuterium, this isn't going to be easy, but running experiments longer is about as useful as running them hotter. First things first. In a similar way, reliability is certainly desirable. However, if we don't have reliability, if, say, half our experiments shown nothing while the other half, seemingly the same, show significant heat, we are not stopped and we need not -- and should not -- demand reliability before proceeding. Heat/helium was conclusively demonstrated with not-reliable experiments, that is the power of correlation. The dead cells serve as controls, such that the hidden variable is all that is varying, plus, of course, the output.
Re: [Vo]:Independent validation of thermal anomalies from Celani's constantan wires
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: Cart before the horse, Peter. The first issues are scientific, and exploring the parameter space is *more difficult* if, at the same time, high signal is required. Pushing noise down by careful experimental design can save a lot of money and time. I agree. I think the NRL in Washington goes overboard with this approach, but generally speaking, I agree. Sometimes you can measure a lower level of heat with more confidence than higher level. Small-scale calorimeters work better. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJbutterside.pdf This could be why STMicroelectronics (a.k.a. Big International Company) is using a smaller amount of wire than Celani, with a different cell and calorimeter configuration (according to Celani). If the exact conditions for heat production are not known, if they depend on very difficult-to-control conditions, such as the exact size and number of cracks in palladium deuteride, as appears to be the case with the FPHE, then your scaled-up experiment might unexpectedly produce a lot more heat than you expected. It's dangerous. Pons and Fleischmann scaled *down* for exactly this reason. Exactly right. In a similar way, reliability is certainly desirable. However, if we don't have reliability, if, say, half our experiments shown nothing while the other half, seemingly the same, show significant heat, we are not stopped and we need not -- and should not -- demand reliability before proceeding. Heat/helium was conclusively demonstrated with not-reliable experiments, that is the power of correlation. The dead cells serve as controls, such that the hidden variable is all that is varying, plus, of course, the output. Right. And important. Work with what you have, don't hold out for something better but unobtainable. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Independent validation of thermal anomalies from Celani's constantan wires
Dear Abd, perhaps we will discuss this in a separate thread, here the main subject is the success of one of my best friends Francesco Celani and he has surely the vision of how to go further and his strategy of doing the next steps and so on. Very probably such confirmations of increasing reliability will come from many places. I am writing now an essay entitled Is Cold Fusion natural? and this will be an opportunity to establish if it is a better way to invest creativity in more sensitive and precise measurements or trying, even empirically to enhance and and stabilize the heat effect. Peter On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: At 02:54 AM 12/6/2012, you wrote: Push noise down or raise the signal a high up- this is the basic option. The first choice is passive, the second active. Which one will one lead to useful Cold Fusion? Cart before the horse, Peter. The first issues are scientific, and exploring the parameter space is *more difficult* if, at the same time, high signal is required. Pushing noise down by careful experimental design can save a lot of money and time. This is the reality, Peter: we know that the FPHE (Fleischmann-Pons Heat Effect) is real. We don't need massive results for that, the best work and most conclusive work has been with modest heat, but then correlated with helium production. We can definitely use more accuracy in this, but the limits have been on helium capture/collection/**measurement, not on heat measurement, the accuracy with heat is generally already adequate. Sure, some people are going to work on increasing heat production, but increasing *absolute heat production*, we know, can easily be done with a reaction with known characteristics, simply by scaling up. However, there is a serious problem here. If the exact conditions for heat production are not known, if they depend on very difficult-to-control conditions, such as the exact size and number of cracks in palladium deuteride, as appears to be the case with the FPHE, then your scaled-up experiment might unexpectedly produce a lot more heat than you expected. It's dangerous. Pons and Fleischmann scaled *down* for exactly this reason. And running experiments by remote control behind blast barriers raises costs even further. No, first things first. We need much more exploration of the parameter space. Once we know what conditions are effective for setting up the reactions, we can then start to scale up, but that's really the last step. The main trend today is silent implicit desperation. No. It's realism: until we know the *mechanism* for the FPHE, we need basic research, and that can be -- and should be -- small-scale. If it's small scale, it makes it possible to run many more variations on an experiment, simultaneously, making the discovery of optimal operating conditions come sooner, most likely. Rossi allegedly ran a thousand experiments before he found his secret sauce. While I have no idea if he really found a secret sauce, that part of his story is plausible, at least. As far as I can tell, we don't know and have very little clue as to what the ash might be from NiH reactions. What we need for heat is enough heat to be satisfied that the reaction is real and the heat is not artifact. Sure, eventually, we will want much more than that. We want enough heat that the reaction leaves behind enough ash to be detected. If the ash is deuterium, this isn't going to be easy, but running experiments longer is about as useful as running them hotter. First things first. In a similar way, reliability is certainly desirable. However, if we don't have reliability, if, say, half our experiments shown nothing while the other half, seemingly the same, show significant heat, we are not stopped and we need not -- and should not -- demand reliability before proceeding. Heat/helium was conclusively demonstrated with not-reliable experiments, that is the power of correlation. The dead cells serve as controls, such that the hidden variable is all that is varying, plus, of course, the output. -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:Method of LENR Material Comparison
David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I have found a way to calculate the area, volume, and number of spheres required to have any specified mass once a radius is chosen. I believe the particles are irregular. Not very spherical. How would that affect your method? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:How bad is this news? Jed Rothwell - about Jaro Jaro trolling
At 04:00 PM 12/5/2012, Jojo Jaro wrote: A simple study that anyone can undertake will clearly reveal that Al-Ilyah is the name of the moon god of muhammed's bediun tribe. Well, I'd only seen this idea coming from wing nuts, but I took a look. First of all, the idea is that the Al-Ilyah was elided to Allah. From my knowledge of Arabic, that's very unlikely, especially given the easy elision from al-ilah, which would be pronounced almost exactly like Allah, and, in fact, the middle ll of Allah has a special pronunciation that emphasizes it, it's called lam jalalah, strong-L. It's a pretty clear sign of the elided short vowel i., leading to a doubled L. Yah, though, the y, isn't going to disappear like that. It is strongly pronounced. To English speakers, we think of the y being pronounced with a short i, but it's a letter of emphasis, and would be pronounced long, al-ileeyah, most likely. Anyway, I looked up the word in Lane's Lexicon, which is thorough about classical Arabic. alyah (or ilyah, that initial vowel can vary) means buttock or rump or posterior. No cheese down that rathole. The spelling as Al-Ilyah may be idiosyncratic. so I looked up the word. I found a Wikipedia article. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah_as_Moon-god Yeah. A claim put forth by some Evangelical Christian groups. Not terribly surprising, eh? Well, some obvious implications. As the Wikipedia article points out, Allah can be read as al-ilah, and I suggest that the reverse is actually the etymology of Allah. The more-or-less official position is that Allah is a name, and the etymology of names is not terribly relevant, it's actual usage that counts. Anyone who is worshipping some god and believes that this is the only god, or the main god, or the important god, may refer to this god using the definite article, the god. I.e., al-ilah. Al- is the definite article. So is it possible that moon-worshippers called their god al-ilah? Of course it is! But so would the worshippers of any god, or the One God. The writer here consistently, believes that his highly idiosyncratic theories are proven, that anyone who studies will, of course, agree with him, so Right is he, in more ways than one. Obama, of course, is not an American citizen, there is a massive conspiracy to cover up his true birth circumstances, and, I'm sure, I could go on and on, but *I have not been reading Jaro Jaro for a long time.* I found no even reasonably credible sources proposing Al-Ilyah as a name. What seems credible is Al-ilah, in fact. That *might* have been applied to the Moon god, or to any god. To really address this would require expertise; it's claimed that old inscriptions, pre-Islamic, used ALLH, i.e., the way Allah is written without vowels. The truth, I don't know. He wanted to unify the various arab tribes, so he promoted his moon god as the equivalent of the Jewish God. When islam became widespread, the word allah was then used synomymously with GOD. That is why Christian arabs today use the generic word allah to mean God. In the beginning, allah or al-ilyah has always been the moon god of muhammed's tribe, not the universal Jewish God, or the Christian God. Stop lying to the uninitiated in this forum. And anyone who suggests that there might be some truth to the *widely established and practically universal opinion among scholars, Muslims, and Christians who speak Arabic,* is a liar. He's insane or simply trolling. He says that he will meet bias with bias, so maybe he doesn't believe what he writes. But it doesn't matter. He's trolling, as to effect. If he actually believes what he writes, he's insane. As for your second spin; let me get this straight. Muhammed married a dozen women after his first wife died but for some twisted reason, they are not considered wives. No, I didn't say that. They were wives. They were open, declared marriages. Jaro doesn't know how to read. You are actually arguing that these dozen women he took were not his wives? Have I not spoken the truth when I said Muhammend had dozens of wives. No, not the truth. He had one wife, she died, and then he, ultimately, had a dozen more. Not dozens. If someone marries multiple women, after death or divorce, we do not say, in English, that this person had multiple wives, unless they were wives at the same time. So he had a dozen, probably at the most (were they all alive at the same time, I don't know), and I used the total count in Wikipedia, I don't know if that's authoritative. As to what Jaro Jaro goes on to mention, possible concubinage, which involves slaves, not wives, I'm not entering that debate. We were talking about wives, which means known, publicly established, socially-recognized relationships, it would not include relationships with women in other categories. There will be no end if I track down every one of Jaro Jaro's shotgun threads. (by the way, he did have
Re: [Vo]:Independent validation of thermal anomalies from Celani's constantan wires
At 02:21 PM 12/6/2012, Jed Rothwell wrote: Right. And important. Work with what you have, don't hold out for something better but unobtainable. Ah, my cells will produce *much more important results* if I use a cathode wire made out of unobtainium. It's very expensive, though. Send me a check for $1,500,000 and I'll try to get some. I only need a little.
Re: [Vo]:Independent validation of thermal anomalies from Celani's constantan wires
On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 6:35 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Jeff Berkowitz pdx...@gmail.com wrote: Now we have this new result showing ~1 watt of excess heat at some high operating power (not stated but sufficient to raise the cell temp to 350C). By implication, I am asked to believe that the team making the measurement can somehow achieve absolute accuracy significantly better than MFMP have achieved with their open, consultative, clearly documented process. Sorry, I choose not to believe this right now. On what basis? Do you know anything about their calorimetry? No, and that is my point. Jeff
Re: [Vo]:Independent validation of thermal anomalies from Celani's constantan wires
At 02:35 PM 12/6/2012, Peter Gluck wrote: Dear Abd, perhaps we will discuss this in a separate thread, here the main subject is the success of one of my best friends Francesco Celani and he has surely the vision of how to go further and his strategy of doing the next steps and so on. Very probably such confirmations of increasing reliability will come from many places. I am writing now an essay entitled Is Cold Fusion natural? and this will be an opportunity to establish if it is a better way to invest creativity in more sensitive and precise measurements or trying, even empirically to enhance and and stabilize the heat effect. Peter As NiH work goes, of late, Celani's project is small-scale. My guess, though, is that the experiment might be even easier as a demonstration if it were smaller-scale. The longer wire may break more often, for example. One does not gain heat per unit surface area with a longer wire. I won't go into detail, but you might get the idea. I have an experiment that was run once, by a student. The kit I made is shown being received in the movie The Believers. The student ran it. This was a Galileo protocol replication looking for neutrons, using a gold wire cathode and LR-115 detectors, instead of the silver wire of the original Galileo project, and instead of CR-39 as in later SPAWAR publications reporting neutrons most prolifically from gold wire cathodes. (But the levels were still very low.) The SSNTDs were damaged in etching, and it is possible that they were also underdeveloped. I don't see, so far, evidence for substantial neutron radiation, i.e., proton knock-on tracks, but analysis is still continuing. I've seen *one* triple-track, from apparent C-12 breakup. That could easily be from background neutrons. In any case, this is a wire. In the Galileo project, the wire was two inches long. But only part of the wire was close to CR-39, and to demonstrate the effect, only a short exposed length would be necessary. Gold, palladium chloride, heavy water -- and platinum for the anode -- are all very expensive. So I scaled down. This project used two half-inch lengths of exposed gold wire, in two sections. One was observable with a microscope from outside the cell. The other had LR-115 outside the cell on the cell wall adjacent to the wire. Since there was half the length of wire, the amount of palladium chloride in the electrolyte was halved, and the currents were halved, and the total amount of heavy water was halved, thus keeping conditions *along the length of wire* the same as with the Galileo project protocol. The cell cost, then, was about half of what it would have otherwise been, allowing the same budget to run twice as many cells. The danger of changing conditions is that somehow, some unanticipated effect will scotch the results. That is a serious danger with cold fusion experiments. But my judgment was that this particular change would not. The use of LR-115 is more serious, LR-115 has a different range of energies detected, and if the particles are too high in energy *they will not show*. That can be addressed, and deeper etching might be a part of that. I can see, on these chips, what looks like noise, or more clearly, possible tracks that have not etched all the way through the 6 micron detector layer. I intend to run this experiment with many more variations. The original run was very successful in one way: the cell, with only 12.5 grams of heavy water in it, did not run out of heavy water with the protocol used (at half-current). That was a major worry. Yes, more heavy water could have been put it, but that requires disturbing the cell, perhaps, and plating tends to fall off There is other work to be done with this experiment. Heat is not (yet) being measured. It's possible, though, that a very sensitive isoperibolic technique could be used. Bottom line, this is fun. And some useful results *might* pop out along the way. There is a search on for accessory effects, that is, signals that the FPHE is being triggered, but these are not nuclear effects, rather, they are, ideally, measurable easily. Effects like sound or light or resistance changes, or the like. Get some of those going and all the work will start to accelerate, as detecting the effect -- and its size -- may become quicker and simpler, even at small scale.
Re: [Vo]:Independent validation of thermal anomalies from Celani's constantan wires
Jeff Berkowitz pdx...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry, I choose not to believe this right now. On what basis? Do you know anything about their calorimetry? No, and that is my point. If you do not know, then the correct attitude is not to doubt the results, and not to believe them either. You should be a neutral skeptic, awaiting more results. I lean toward believing them because I have seen previous research from STMicroelectronics and I believe they usually do quality work. That isn't much to go on, but then again I am not saying I am certain it is real, am I? As I said, it is presumptuous for you to assume that their calorimeter is no more sensitive than the MFM instrument. That makes no sense. Most calorimeters are more sensitive than ~1 W. The MFM one is accurate but not very precise. You also have no reason to suppose STMicroelectronics do not know what they are doing. It is okay to doubt a result. It is fine to question results, express reservations, or reserve judgement. However, as I said the other day to David Robinson, you may be a gifted amateur. You may understand these issue better than 99% of the reading public. But unless you have worked day in and day out for many years with the equipment or the algorithms, I think you have no business declaring that a field of research is a train wreck or that you can choose not to believe a result. This is arrogant. That kind of arrogance is the source of our problems in cold fusion. It goes without saying that some fields of research are train wrecks, and that researchers at large companies such as STMicroelectronics do sometimes make stupid mistakes. So you and Robinson might be right. But if you are right, it is a lucky guess. You have no rigorous proof. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Independent validation of thermal anomalies from Celani's constantan wires
Scientifically you are perfectly right, and i learned much about that counter intuitive fact. however we are not in a lab but in an open air psychiatric hospital. the problem is not to convince scientists, but to convinces blinds stubborn kids of 5 with a tenure. The only way to convince the opponents is to show something that can convince an dishonest kid of 5, because those pretended adults use all their mental capacities to find excuse not to believe in fact they usually accept because of their competences... Even if some experiments can raise question (Jed and Abd state many such), many repeated arguments are totally aberrant for someone with scientific culture. They switch off their scientific brain when saying that on LENR. this is why they ask for a tea kettle. Me I call that a shoebox... put on a table a shoebox with a device that clearly can convince a kid of 5, my mother and a 9/11 denialist, and you win. everything that ask for a PhD, or some honesty, or some intelligence is useless. 2012/12/6 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: Cart before the horse, Peter. The first issues are scientific, and exploring the parameter space is *more difficult* if, at the same time, high signal is required. Pushing noise down by careful experimental design can save a lot of money and time. I agree. I think the NRL in Washington goes overboard with this approach, but generally speaking, I agree. Sometimes you can measure a lower level of heat with more confidence than higher level. Small-scale calorimeters work better. See: http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJbutterside.pdf ...
Re: [Vo]:WITTS 3kW Generator Video
I can't find a very similar demo on youtube where a guy ran a drill.. Looked like it was filmed in the Philippians or but can't find it.. Here is a video showing what should happen when you try to power a motor with a generator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl57y-c_bWc Goes dead pretty quickly. - Brad On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Esa Ruoho esaru...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 7:44 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: The idea that WITTS is an on-going organization with 200 years of history is bizarre. While its reasonable to deride criticism of technological development on the basis of the engineer's religious beliefs, the claim that Nicola Tesla, and prior scientists, were members of an organization that exists to this day, but which has no historical record other than the testimony of one man, has the ring of an MK-ULTRA op if not outright insanity. Yeah, this is the part that I don't really care about. I mean, when I spoke with them for a few hours on the phone, they said something similar to Faraday and Maxwell having been involved in this or that. I don't understand the reason for saying something like that, but I don't consider it to be any reason to not fund them, they have their own reasons for it. I don't know if it's a kind of we have 15 to 45 books kind of thing (when someone actually has 8 or 10 books), or what's going on, but overall, the u.s. peeps have neat lotteries in there (or so we poor scandinavians are lead to misbelieve) ranging from 250 to 350 million dollars as a first prize so to throw 15 or 35 million to WITTS/Thrapp people would still leave a ton of funding for other projects (such as Erik Dollard (who is on Indiegogo) and John Hutchison (who is on Gofundme). And then pick up some paypal addresses for Tom Bearden, Dale Pond, Paul Pantone and so on. Call it risk-money or what you will, but it would surely sort out the wheat from the chaff very quickly - by allowing one to directly see how these people are progressing and what they do with the money.
Re: [Vo]:Independent validation of thermal anomalies from Celani's constantan wires
Alain Sepeda alain.sep...@gmail.com wrote: Scientifically you are perfectly right, and i learned much about that counter intuitive fact. however we are not in a lab but in an open air psychiatric hospital. the problem is not to convince scientists, but to convinces blinds stubborn kids of 5 with a tenure. Well said. 5-year-old kids with tenure is a good way to describe the opposition. You are right, and Peter is right that it would be better for everyone if we could produce a large, easily measured reaction. No one disputes that. All else being equal, a larger reaction is better than a smaller one until you reach the point where the reaction becomes dangerous. I think Rossi reached that point and went beyond it with 16 kW and 0.5 MW reactions. That is not necessary! Frankly, that's nuts. But it would be nice if we could get a ~20 W reaction. That is what Celani believed he had at ICCF17. Celani might have been right. Perhaps that was ~20 W. Unfortunately, the calorimetry was so crude we cannot be sure. If I have to choose between measuring 20 W with Celani's crude calorimetry, and measuring 1 W with superb calorimetry that leaves no doubt the effect is real, I would choose the latter. In some ways, a small calorimeter is more accurate and more reliable, so a short wire producing one or two watts may be better than a 1 m wire producing 20 Watts. That just happens to be how calorimeters work in the present era. You might say this a coincidence. Future calorimeters might work better with large-scale reactions. Yes, a more powerful reaction would be nice, but we must work with what we have, as Abd stresses. We will die of old age if we sit around waiting UPS to deliver a $1.5 million package of unobtainium. One of the cardinal rules of being a good military leader or a good politician is to make do with what you have, and to find a way to win by subterfuge if you do not have a material or strategic advantage. Cold fusion is very much a political fight, so we should take lessons from these disciplines. In ancient times a general marched his army through a gap between two mountains, in a place visible to the enemy army. He had the troops march through with their spears glittering in sunlight. Then they doubled back through a lower valley, out of sight, to march through the high road again, and again. The same troops went through the pass five times, making the enemy think he had five times more troops that he really had. The enemy commanders fled without giving battle. That is the easiest and best way to win. Sun Tzu describes many similar techniques. The point is, you find a way to outwit the opposition, and you use what you have, rather than wishing you had more. American military commanders prefer to have a huge material advantage, which they often waste, or fail to use. This goes back to the Civil War. Lincoln said, sending reinforcements to McClellan is like shoveling flies across a barn. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Method of LENR Material Comparison
I am sure you are correct about the particles being irregular in shape. The surface area is mainly what I am interested in and spheres of the average size would be on the low side, but not necessarily by much. It is difficult to get an exact answer for the surface areas that are active, but I think it is better to give it a try instead of assuming that it can not be done. One most likely can obtain a correction factor that accounts for the lack of perfection. At the moment no one actually knows what proportion of the area is capable of LENR since we do not know exactly how the active regions are constructed. I think that it is interesting that a quick calculation of the power output of a roughly Rossi sized collection of particles came within the ballpark of his claims using information obtained from Celani's experiment. I envision this translation process as a tool to add to our understanding. Would it not be great if a wire could be tested that has been processed in a known manner to determine how well it performs in the powdered form? This type of process would eliminate many variables associated with a powder test such as the exact distribution of particle sizes within a powder and whether or not the individual particles were plated properly. This type of test translation could save a lot of experimental time. At the moment I am pretty excited about the possible applications of this concept. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 2:36 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Method of LENR Material Comparison David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I have found a way to calculate the area, volume, and number of spheres required to have any specified mass once a radius is chosen. I believe the particles are irregular. Not very spherical. How would that affect your method? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Method of LENR Material Comparison
David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I am sure you are correct about the particles being irregular in shape. The surface area is mainly what I am interested in and spheres of the average size would be on the low side, but not necessarily by much. Not sure about that. Those particles can be convoluted. The wires are also convoluted. After Celani treats them, they are full of holes, like Swiss cheese. I suppose it would be difficult to estimate how much surface area there is, taking into account the inside surface of those holes. After a while it resembles Mandelbrot's famous question how long is the coast of Britain? The answer is light-years long if you measure it on a small enough scale. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Long_Is_the_Coast_of_Britain%3F_Statistical_Self-Similarity_and_Fractional_Dimension I think that it is interesting that a quick calculation of the power output of a roughly Rossi sized collection of particles came within the ballpark of his claims using information obtained from Celani's experiment. That is interesting. I have felt for some time that Rossi may not have such a huge breakthrough. He might just have a lot of powder, with a lot of surface area. Arata and the others in Japan are using a tiny amount of powder. If they were to use more they might get Rossi-like results. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:WITTS 3kW Generator Video
Brad, If you place a large flywheel on the shaft, you will get a much slower decay in speed. Also, the efficiencies of the motor and the generator directly impact the energy loss of the system. So, take an efficient generator and connect it to an efficient motor while driving a large flywheel and it will continue to turn for a long time. Dave -Original Message- From: Brad Lowe ecatbuil...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:WITTS 3kW Generator Video I can't find a very similar demo on youtube where a guy ran a drill.. Looked like it was filmed in the Philippians or but can't find it.. Here is a video showing what should happen when you try to power a motor with a generator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl57y-c_bWc Goes dead pretty quickly. - Brad On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Esa Ruoho esaru...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 7:44 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: The idea that WITTS is an on-going organization with 200 years of history is bizarre. While its reasonable to deride criticism of technological development on the basis of the engineer's religious beliefs, the claim that Nicola Tesla, and prior scientists, were members of an organization that exists to this day, but which has no historical record other than the testimony of one man, has the ring of an MK-ULTRA op if not outright insanity. Yeah, this is the part that I don't really care about. I mean, when I spoke with them for a few hours on the phone, they said something similar to Faraday and Maxwell having been involved in this or that. I don't understand the reason for saying something like that, but I don't consider it to be any reason to not fund them, they have their own reasons for it. I don't know if it's a kind of we have 15 to 45 books kind of thing (when someone actually has 8 or 10 books), or what's going on, but overall, the u.s. peeps have neat lotteries in there (or so we poor scandinavians are lead to misbelieve) ranging from 250 to 350 million dollars as a first prize so to throw 15 or 35 million to WITTS/Thrapp people would still leave a ton of funding for other projects (such as Erik Dollard (who is on Indiegogo) and John Hutchison (who is on Gofundme). And then pick up some paypal addresses for Tom Bearden, Dale Pond, Paul Pantone and so on. Call it risk-money or what you will, but it would surely sort out the wheat from the chaff very quickly - by allowing one to directly see how these people are progressing and what they do with the money.
Re: [Vo]:WITTS 3kW Generator Video
Maybe using a water pump: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-tXe_jnWIs Mark Jordan On 06-Dec-12 20:46, David Roberson wrote: Brad, If you place a large flywheel on the shaft, you will get a much slower decay in speed. Also, the efficiencies of the motor and the generator directly impact the energy loss of the system. So, take an efficient generator and connect it to an efficient motor while driving a large flywheel and it will continue to turn for a long time. Dave -Original Message- From: Brad Lowe ecatbuil...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:WITTS 3kW Generator Video I can't find a very similar demo on youtube where a guy ran a drill.. Looked like it was filmed in the Philippians or but can't find it.. Here is a video showing what should happen when you try to power a motor with a generator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl57y-c_bWc Goes dead pretty quickly. - Brad On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Esa Ruoho esaru...@gmail.com mailto:esaru...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 7:44 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com mailto:jabow...@gmail.com wrote: The idea that WITTS is an on-going organization with 200 years of history is bizarre. While its reasonable to deride criticism of technological development on the basis of the engineer's religious beliefs, the claim that Nicola Tesla, and prior scientists, were members of an organization that exists to this day, but which has no historical record other than the testimony of one man, has the ring of an MK-ULTRA op if not outright insanity. Yeah, this is the part that I don't really care about. I mean, when I spoke with them for a few hours on the phone, they said something similar to Faraday and Maxwell having been involved in this or that. I don't understand the reason for saying something like that, but I don't consider it to be any reason to not fund them, they have their own reasons for it. I don't know if it's a kind of we have 15 to 45 books kind of thing (when someone actually has 8 or 10 books), or what's going on, but overall, the u.s. peeps have neat lotteries in there (or so we poor scandinavians are lead to misbelieve) ranging from 250 to 350 million dollars as a first prize so to throw 15 or 35 million to WITTS/Thrapp people would still leave a ton of funding for other projects (such as Erik Dollard (who is on Indiegogo) and John Hutchison (who is on Gofundme). And then pick up some paypal addresses for Tom Bearden, Dale Pond, Paul Pantone and so on. Call it risk-money or what you will, but it would surely sort out the wheat from the chaff very quickly - by allowing one to directly see how these people are progressing and what they do with the money.
Re: [Vo]:Method of LENR Material Comparison
It is fairly safe to assume that the convolution of the surface areas is dramatic, but I am assuming that this will be true for both types of systems. I look at Celani's surface and mentally translate it to Rossi's powder surfaces. We do not know what process Rossi uses with his powder and he tends to keep that information private. I am not confident that I know much more about the Celani wire surface since this parameter would be of commercial value and will likely be patented. If the active regions are significantly smaller than the powder sizes, then it seems likely that we would be able to make a translation. I suspect that Celani would have much better control of the deposits placed upon his wire since it is easier to get to all of the areas involved. It might even be advantageous to produce powder particles that are closer to the wire size of Celani which would produce power in between the two systems. These larger spheroids might be easier to plate and test while delivering a level of power that is above the wire noise level. Once an ideal plating process is determined, it would be time to translate the powder particle sizes downward to the desired degree. After the translation phase is completed, any large discrepancy in output performance could be scientifically analyzed to obtain an explanation. This type of process seems like it should allow us to rapidly find the best solution. This hypothesis is based upon the belief that heat is the driving force behind the emission of excess power. If the DC current is a major factor due to magnetic field effects or some strange superconductivity effect then it will not be accurate. The fact that a quick translation from Celani to Rossi power is within the ballpark of matching suggests that heat is the main factor. I hope that this line of reasoning receives an adequate level of discussion since it looks very promising. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 5:45 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Method of LENR Material Comparison David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I am sure you are correct about the particles being irregular in shape. The surface area is mainly what I am interested in and spheres of the average size would be on the low side, but not necessarily by much. Not sure about that. Those particles can be convoluted. The wires are also convoluted. After Celani treats them, they are full of holes, like Swiss cheese. I suppose it would be difficult to estimate how much surface area there is, taking into account the inside surface of those holes. After a while it resembles Mandelbrot's famous question how long is the coast of Britain? The answer is light-years long if you measure it on a small enough scale. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_Long_Is_the_Coast_of_Britain%3F_Statistical_Self-Similarity_and_Fractional_Dimension I think that it is interesting that a quick calculation of the power output of a roughly Rossi sized collection of particles came within the ballpark of his claims using information obtained from Celani's experiment. That is interesting. I have felt for some time that Rossi may not have such a huge breakthrough. He might just have a lot of powder, with a lot of surface area. Arata and the others in Japan are using a tiny amount of powder. If they were to use more they might get Rossi-like results. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:WITTS 3kW Generator Video
Please help me understand what is being suggested by these experiments. Are they supposed to be based upon the belief that mechanical energy can be converted into electrical energy and then back into mechanical energy with a net gain? If this is the expectation then it would violate the CoE which is not possible. Show a source of energy that is being depleted and you will get a vote of confidence. Dave -Original Message- From: MJ feli...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 6:00 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:WITTS 3kW Generator Video Maybe using a water pump: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-tXe_jnWIs Mark Jordan On 06-Dec-12 20:46, David Roberson wrote: Brad, If youplace a large flywheel on the shaft, you will get a much slowerdecay in speed. Also, the efficiencies of the motor and the generator directly impact the energy loss of the system. So, take an efficient generator and connect it to an efficient motor while driving a large flywheel and it will continue to turn for a long time. Dave -OriginalMessage- From: Brad Lowe ecatbuil...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Thu, Dec 6, 2012 4:29 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:WITTS 3kW Generator Video I can't find a very similar demo on youtube where a guy ran a drill.. Looked like it was filmed in the Philippians or but can't find it.. Here is a video showing what should happen when you try to power a motor with a generator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl57y-c_bWc Goes dead pretty quickly. - Brad On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Esa Ruoho esaru...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at7:44 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.comwrote: The idea that WITTS is an on-goingorganization with 200 years of history isbizarre. While its reasonable to deridecriticism of technological development onthe basis of the engineer's religious beliefs, the claim that Nicola Tesla, and prior scientists, were members of an organization that exists to this day, butwhich has no historical record other thanthe testimony of one man, has the ring of anMK-ULTRA op if not outright insanity. Yeah, this is the part that I don't really care about. I mean, when I spoke with them for a few hours on the phone, they said something similar to Faraday and Maxwell having been involved in this or that. I don't understand the reason for saying something like that, but I don't consider it to be any reason to not fund them, they have their own reasons for it. I don't know if it's a kind of we have 15 to 45 books kind of thing (when someone actually has 8 or 10 books), or what's going on, but overall, the u.s. peeps have neat lotteries in there (or so we poor scandinavians are lead to misbelieve) ranging from 250 to 350 million dollars as a first prize so to throw 15 or 35 million to WITTS/Thrapp people would still leave a ton of funding for other projects (such as Erik Dollard (who is on Indiegogo) and John Hutchison (who is on Gofundme). And then pick up some paypal addresses for Tom Bearden, Dale Pond, Paul Pantone and so on. Call it risk-money or what you will, but it would surely sort out the wheat from the chaff very quickly - by allowing one to directly see how these people are progressing and what they do with the money.
RE: [Vo]:How bad is this news? Jed Rothwell - about Jaro Jaro trolling
Abd, Regarding the sacred meaning behind certain names I recently performed scholarly work on the origins of the name Jojo. My source was the Internet where I get all of my facts. I want you to know that I employed a considerable amount of personal discrimination in the pursuit of my scholarly efforts. For example, when I came across sources whose content I did not like or that I felt was wrong I immediately discarded the information as unreliable. Finally, after meticulously combing through a number of highly respected websites I eventually I uncovered the shocking truth. Jojo: http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Jojo.html Origin: African http://nameberry.com/babyname/Jojo .full name for pet. * * * * * * * * The inescapable conclusion that any reasonable individual would be forced to draw from the combination of these two shocking facts is that Jojo is a black dog. Want proof? I give you proof! http://goo.gl/DxsG9 I hope Jojo has his papers. Nuff said. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Method of LENR Material Comparison
David Roberson wrote: It is fairly safe to assume that the convolution of the surface areas is dramatic, but I am assuming that this will be true for both types of systems. I look at Celani's surface and mentally translate it to Rossi's powder surfaces. That seems reasonable. Fine for a first approximation. To put it another way, they probably both make the surfaces as convoluted as possible. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Method of LENR Material Comparison
LENR is caused by Anderson localization. This is why both Rossi and DGT grow nano-hairs on their micron sized nickel powder grains. This is also why Celani distresses the surface of constantan wires. Also, a porous volume of Zeolites will support LENR. Electromagnetic surface Interference is produced by highly irregular surface structures. This topology changes a conductive surface to an insulator. This irregular surface topology causes islands of greatly amplified standing electron and proton matter waves that concentrate and separate charge by tightly confining energetic electrons and protons through constructive interference to a very small area on the surface of the micro-powder. If you want to understand what role convoluted surface topology plays in LENR, learn about Anderson localization. Cheers:Axil On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 6:51 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: David Roberson wrote: It is fairly safe to assume that the convolution of the surface areas is dramatic, but I am assuming that this will be true for both types of systems. I look at Celani's surface and mentally translate it to Rossi's powder surfaces. That seems reasonable. Fine for a first approximation. To put it another way, they probably both make the surfaces as convoluted as possible. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Method of LENR Material Comparison
Some info to get you started as follows: In his groundbreaking paper “Absence of diffusion in certain random lattices (1958)”, Philip W. Anderson originated, described and developed the physical principles underlying the phenomenon of the localization of quantum objects due to disorder. Anderson’s 1977 Nobel Prize citation featured that paper, which was fundamental for many subsequent developments in condensed matter theory and technical applications. After more than a half century, the subject continues to be of fundamental importance. In particular, in the last 25 years, the phenomenon of localization has proved to be crucial for the understanding of the Quantum Hall Effect, microscopic fluctuations in small conductors, some aspects of quantum chaotic behavior, and most recently the localization and collective modes of electromagnetic and matter waves. For more info, See: http://www.google.com/url?sa=trct=jq=esrc=sfrm=1source=webcd=3cad=rjaved=0CEkQFjACurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kf.elf.stuba.sk%2F~markos%2Fhk.pdfei=kjrBUJexK8bd0QG17oDgCwusg=AFQjCNFxZ6-J7ZRiloN6IWzqUYVWAkydigsig2=5w1F3M6RZKp7W5qs1a733g Cheers: axil On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 7:22 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: LENR is caused by Anderson localization. This is why both Rossi and DGT grow nano-hairs on their micron sized nickel powder grains. This is also why Celani distresses the surface of constantan wires. Also, a porous volume of Zeolites will support LENR. Electromagnetic surface Interference is produced by highly irregular surface structures. This topology changes a conductive surface to an insulator. This irregular surface topology causes islands of greatly amplified standing electron and proton matter waves that concentrate and separate charge by tightly confining energetic electrons and protons through constructive interference to a very small area on the surface of the micro-powder. If you want to understand what role convoluted surface topology plays in LENR, learn about Anderson localization. Cheers:Axil On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 6:51 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: David Roberson wrote: It is fairly safe to assume that the convolution of the surface areas is dramatic, but I am assuming that this will be true for both types of systems. I look at Celani's surface and mentally translate it to Rossi's powder surfaces. That seems reasonable. Fine for a first approximation. To put it another way, they probably both make the surfaces as convoluted as possible. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:How bad is this news? Jed Rothwell - about Jaro Jaro trolling
LOL... I'm in a good mood so I found this rather amusing if that were in fact what the web site said. This is what the first site said about the meaning of Jojo Jojo Meaning: Monday born This is what the second site said Jojo Sprightly and engaging nickname for human, full name for pet. He he he the poor retard doesn't even know how to read. How did Monday born become black dog? Oh... I get it. Too much kissing donkeykong's ass caused excessive inhalation of his flatulence causing brain damage. Poor retard. I don't know what to feel. Angry and sorry. Jojo BTW, are you that white dog looking up at me (black dog)? From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 7:43 AM Subject: RE: [Vo]:How bad is this news? Jed Rothwell - about Jaro Jaro trolling Abd, Regarding the sacred meaning behind certain names I recently performed scholarly work on the origins of the name Jojo. My source was the Internet where I get all of my facts. I want you to know that I employed a considerable amount of personal discrimination in the pursuit of my scholarly efforts. For example, when I came across sources whose content I did not like or that I felt was wrong I immediately discarded the information as unreliable. Finally, after meticulously combing through a number of highly respected websites I eventually I uncovered the shocking truth. Jojo: http://babynamesworld.parentsconnect.com/meaning_of_Jojo.html Origin: African http://nameberry.com/babyname/Jojo .full name for pet. * * * * * * * * The inescapable conclusion that any reasonable individual would be forced to draw from the combination of these two shocking facts is that Jojo is a black dog. Want proof? I give you proof! http://goo.gl/DxsG9 I hope Jojo has his papers. Nuff said. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:oops
On Thu, Dec 6, 2012 at 9:24 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote: Time to get the tin-foil hats out of storage... I would not want to wear a tin-foil hat if the area around me were being irradiated with microwaves. Eric
