Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
Without appropriate certification you cannot get equipment insured. Installing uncertified equipment anywhere exposes the company manufacturing, marketing, installing or owning the equipment up to all sorts of potentially devastating legal repercussions in the event of an accident or failure or unknown side-effect of any sort. Penalties would include both financial and criminal liability in case of accidents, even if the failure was totally unrelated to the LENR side of things, as most jurisdictions have various engineering certifications written into their laws. Manufacturing or selling the equipment in the US without appropriate certification would be commercially suicidal. At best Rossi might be OK manufacturing in Mexico or Asia and selling into the 1st world (like sporting equipment manufacturers do) - but even then the end users/owners and installers would be vulnerable. At a bare minimum you would need to comply with the ASME Boiler and pressure vessel code for design, construction and testing of all of the pressure vessels involved, perhaps up to and including the nuclear related sections of the code. But at the point where the Government acknowledges that LENR it is real and working then every competing industry will be lobbying for bans, more study and greater regulation and any existing LENR products will overnight be made illegal due to the unknown nuclear processes at work. That situation will last until they have been closely examined, tested and any potentially deleterious effects are known - at which point the secret is out anyway. This is yet another reason why Rossi's commercial strategy is bound to fail. He might manage to sell one or two to unwise customers (in reality only to people intent on reverse engineering his breakthrough), but as soon as it is proved to work he is dead in the water in terms of 1st world sales for at least a year (probably much more given all of the vested interests trying to protect the status quo) and his ownership through secrecy will not survive that certification process. On 10 December 2011 20:01, Robert Leguillon robert.leguil...@hotmail.comwrote: I'm quite curious about Mary's claim. I've only had a couple of business law classes in my years, and I would be curious: Is there really any law requiring registration of Chemically Assisted Low Energy Nuclear Reactions? If there is no measurable radiation, no possession or disposal of controlled substances, how could it be illegal (currently)? I contend that the action cannot be prohibited without being acknowledged. I'd love to get comments from anyone with a legal background. -- Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 11:54:43 -0800 Subject: Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun From: maryyu...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Steven Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: From MY If Rossi is producing nuclear fusion reactors in the US, how was this authorized without an opportunity for public comment? Strikes me as an odd comment from MY, the staunch skeptic. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. I don't understand the comment. To be plain, I don't believe Rossi is making nuclear fusion reactors in the US simply because he says so. That he says he is has about the same predictive value, IMHO, as if he didn't say anything.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 9:55 AM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Without appropriate certification you cannot get equipment insured. Rossi claims he has CE certification. T
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 10:52 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Rossi claims he has CE certification. From JNoP: Andrea Rossi October 23rd, 2011 at 8:08 AM Dear Dario: The CE for the business to business has been done. For household applications not yet. Warm Regards, A.R . Of course, he could also claim to have a herd of invisible, pink unicorns. T
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
Exactly. Besides which others have claimed to have checked and found no records of his having CE compliance. On top of which it is obvious to any engineer that looks that his design and construction would not comply with even the European Pressure Equipment Directive, (Oct 6th test was a flagrant violation with excessive temperatures and pressures) and looks more like what you would expect a high school student to come up with. Also to reiterate what I wrote earlier - the officially acknowledged existence of LENR would quickly put a halt to any sales as the safety of such nuclear sources would then need to be thoroughly evaluated by Regulatory Organisations. On 11 December 2011 16:00, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 10:52 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: Rossi claims he has CE certification. From JNoP: Andrea Rossi October 23rd, 2011 at 8:08 AM Dear Dario: The CE for the business to business has been done. For household applications not yet. Warm Regards, A.R . Of course, he could also claim to have a herd of invisible, pink unicorns. T
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. Besides which others have claimed to have checked and found no records of his having CE compliance. Yeah, that was me. But, you need to know under which company it is registered. I tried all the obvious ones with no hits. On top of which it is obvious to any engineer that looks that his design and construction would not comply with even the European Pressure Equipment Directive, (Oct 6th test was a flagrant violation with excessive temperatures and pressures) and looks more like what you would expect a high school student to come up with. Also to reiterate what I wrote earlier - the officially acknowledged existence of LENR would quickly put a halt to any sales as the safety of such nuclear sources would then need to be thoroughly evaluated by Regulatory Organisations. Yeah, I presumed his product category was Hot-Water Boilers. T
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Exactly. Besides which others have claimed to have checked and found no records of his having CE compliance. Yeah, that was me. But, you need to know under which company it is registered. I tried all the obvious ones with no hits. On top of which it is obvious to any engineer that looks that his design and construction would not comply with even the European Pressure Equipment Directive, (Oct 6th test was a flagrant violation with excessive temperatures and pressures) and looks more like what you would expect a high school student to come up with. Also to reiterate what I wrote earlier - the officially acknowledged existence of LENR would quickly put a halt to any sales as the safety of such nuclear sources would then need to be thoroughly evaluated by Regulatory Organisations. Yeah, I presumed his product category was Hot-Water Boilers. If Rossi makes the claim to have CE compliance, would it not be up to him to prove it? How hard is that?
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: Without appropriate certification you cannot get equipment insured. Installing uncertified equipment anywhere exposes the company manufacturing, marketing, installing or owning the equipment up to all sorts of potentially devastating legal repercussions in the event of an accident or failure or unknown side-effect of any sort. Penalties would include both financial and criminal liability in case of accidents, even if the failure was totally unrelated to the LENR side of things . . . I agree with all of these points, and the rest of this message. I made these points myself, previously. At a bare minimum you would need to comply with the ASME Boiler and pressure vessel code for design, construction and testing of all of the pressure vessels involved, perhaps up to and including the nuclear related sections of the code. I assume Rossi knows that, and has done that. He has experience in industry. It is unclear whether he needs to worry about the nuclear-related sections. I suppose that until the government agrees this is nuclear, he has not legal obligation to worry about them, but the situation is unprecedented, so who knows. and his ownership through secrecy will not survive that certification process. I agree. I do not see how it can survive. However, this strategy might let him get a foot in the door. It might bring him initial funding for a patent fight and for additional RD. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
The problem of insurance et certification is a key fact. for me it is a way for the incumbent business to block the spread of that technology to the public, and privatize the benefits to the usual big players. as you see many comments, this is in process. the LENR is not event proved, and however many start to raise reason to forbide it... in fact not to forbid, but to restrict to the usual big incumbent. anyway it won't work in poor countries, who don't respect rules, and this might convince the population thet over-regulation is stupid... but the stupidity and brain-washability of occidental population is surprising (and the tools and infrastructure of brain washing is well trained and prooved). moreover I see, today in Europe, many mecanism to forbide the population to have any action on regulation (constitutional precaution principle, European environmental constraints, uncriticable european regulations, NGO lobbying at EU level, weakeness of classic political lobby at EU level, compared to NGO )... i think that pioneer based countries might react better, despite their developed status... they have theunconscious memory of a time where not changing, not taking advantage of progress, staying static, mean death. for Asia, they will adapt quickly. for africa, the government will follow the incumbent lobbies, the NGO, but population won't follow.
RE: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
On a cautionary note: Rossi's terse response strikes me as a matter of personal interpretation. With Rossi, personal interpretation can mean a lot of different scenarios. I find myself asking, how is Rossi choosing to exploit the word begun in this particular case. Maybe it actually does means Rossi Co. are now building eCats in the U.S. ...Or maybe it just means RCo are thinking about what's all involved in producing eCats in the U.S.. In other words, maybe they have done nothing more than to begin thinking about the matter. ...or maybe RCo is still in negotiation with various enterprises within the U.S. about what's all involved in producing eCats. Speculation on the word, begun can be endless. With no specific details we know absolutely nothing other than what Rossi chooses to tell us for public consumption. With Rossi, his use of the word, begun in this particular case, strikes me as having been strategically stated. It strikes me as an attempt to take some of the wind out of DGT's recent public announcements. IOW, Rossi is saying, if you want to cash in on the biggest deal of the century get on board WITH US NOW!!! AVOID CHEAP IMMITATIONS... aka DGT. In matters of marketing, or more specifically, establishing market share, anything goes. The more outrageous the claim, the better. ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
Your interpretation of begun should be constrained by the context of the original question in which begun is contrasted with starting up. However, your interpretation of begun was not so constrained. I suggest you restate your argument with that in mind. On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 8:03 AM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: On a cautionary note: Rossi's terse response strikes me as a matter of personal interpretation. With Rossi, personal interpretation can mean a lot of different scenarios. I find myself asking, how is Rossi choosing to exploit the word begun in this particular case. Maybe it actually does means Rossi Co. are now building eCats in the U.S. ...Or maybe it just means RCo are thinking about what's all involved in producing eCats in the U.S.. In other words, maybe they have done nothing more than to begin thinking about the matter. ...or maybe RCo is still in negotiation with various enterprises within the U.S. about what's all involved in producing eCats. Speculation on the word, begun can be endless. With no specific details we know absolutely nothing other than what Rossi chooses to tell us for public consumption. With Rossi, his use of the word, begun in this particular case, strikes me as having been strategically stated. It strikes me as an attempt to take some of the wind out of DGT's recent public announcements. IOW, Rossi is saying, if you want to cash in on the biggest deal of the century get on board WITH US NOW!!! AVOID CHEAP IMMITATIONS... aka DGT. In matters of marketing, or more specifically, establishing market share, anything goes. The more outrageous the claim, the better. ;-) Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 4:43 AM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.comwrote: Mr. Rossi Has production begun yet in your US facilities? Or are they still starting up? Does Rossi have production facilities in the US? If so where? And how do we know? Has anyone ever been invited to see and report on a factory or lab? If Rossi is producing nuclear fusion reactors in the US, how was this authorized without an opportunity for public comment? What community would want it without investigating, in public and in the open, all the safety issues regarding radiation, explosion, contamination and the like? What agency conducted the environmental impact study? Where was it published? Why is this not just totally unsupported and probably untrue information that comes, as usual, only from Rossi?
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
If his customer is the military, perhaps he doesn't need authorization... 2011/12/10 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 4:43 AM, Aussie Guy E-Cat aussieguy.e...@gmail.com wrote: Mr. Rossi Has production begun yet in your US facilities? Or are they still starting up? Does Rossi have production facilities in the US? If so where? And how do we know? Has anyone ever been invited to see and report on a factory or lab? If Rossi is producing nuclear fusion reactors in the US, how was this authorized without an opportunity for public comment? What community would want it without investigating, in public and in the open, all the safety issues regarding radiation, explosion, contamination and the like? What agency conducted the environmental impact study? Where was it published? Why is this not just totally unsupported and probably untrue information that comes, as usual, only from Rossi? -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote: If his customer is the military, perhaps he doesn't need authorization... The military may not need authorization to use a device but he needs authorizations galore for a manufacturing plant/factory. For example, General Atomic near San Diego has all sorts of secret military contracts. But when they built the plant, there was all kinds of discussion in the press and they had to get all sorts of permits before they could make and test nuclear reactors in a populated area.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
James Bowery wrote: Your interpretation of begun should be constrained by the context of the original question in which begun is contrasted with starting up. However, your interpretation of begun was not so constrained. I suggest you restate your argument with that in mind. I suggest it's Not that important to articulate. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
Why should it be in a populated area? 2011/12/10 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote: If his customer is the military, perhaps he doesn't need authorization... The military may not need authorization to use a device but he needs authorizations galore for a manufacturing plant/factory. For example, General Atomic near San Diego has all sorts of secret military contracts. But when they built the plant, there was all kinds of discussion in the press and they had to get all sorts of permits before they could make and test nuclear reactors in a populated area. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
From MY If Rossi is producing nuclear fusion reactors in the US, how was this authorized without an opportunity for public comment? Strikes me as an odd comment from MY, the staunch skeptic. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. Svj - orionworks.com
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote: Why should it be in a populated area? Far as I know, all of Massachusetts is a populated area. And you can't make nuclear devices in the US without all sorts of permits.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Steven Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.comwrote: From MY If Rossi is producing nuclear fusion reactors in the US, how was this authorized without an opportunity for public comment? Strikes me as an odd comment from MY, the staunch skeptic. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. I don't understand the comment. To be plain, I don't believe Rossi is making nuclear fusion reactors in the US simply because he says so. That he says he is has about the same predictive value, IMHO, as if he didn't say anything.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
Why do you assume that is in Massachusetts? 2011/12/10 Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote: Why should it be in a populated area? Far as I know, all of Massachusetts is a populated area. And you can't make nuclear devices in the US without all sorts of permits. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
RE: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
I'm quite curious about Mary's claim. I've only had a couple of business law classes in my years, and I would be curious: Is there really any law requiring registration of Chemically Assisted Low Energy Nuclear Reactions? If there is no measurable radiation, no possession or disposal of controlled substances, how could it be illegal (currently)? I contend that the action cannot be prohibited without being acknowledged. I'd love to get comments from anyone with a legal background. Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 11:54:43 -0800 Subject: Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun From: maryyu...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Steven Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com wrote: From MY If Rossi is producing nuclear fusion reactors in the US, how was this authorized without an opportunity for public comment? Strikes me as an odd comment from MY, the staunch skeptic. Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. I don't understand the comment. To be plain, I don't believe Rossi is making nuclear fusion reactors in the US simply because he says so. That he says he is has about the same predictive value, IMHO, as if he didn't say anything.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.comwrote: Why do you assume that is in Massachusetts? Because Rossi said that was where he was planning to produce E-cats in the US. I don't think it matters. I don't think he can make nuclear fusion reactors in the US without all sorts of permits. Well, let me amend that. He can probably do it but probably not legally. Now I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV. As long as it's all Rossi says and nothing more, I am pretty sure it doesn't matter very much.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Robert Leguillon robert.leguil...@hotmail.com wrote: If there is no measurable radiation, no possession or disposal of controlled substances, how could it be illegal (currently)? You forget: Rossi claims gamma radiation during operation which, he says, is thermalized and against which he shields with substantial amounts of lead. So there is radiation and plenty of it. | I contend that the action cannot be prohibited without being acknowledged. I don't know anything about that. Maybe the manufacture of Rossi's device falls under other regulations than any which might deal specifically chemical assisted LENR and probably don't exist as such.
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
From Robert Leguillon wrote: I contend that the action cannot be prohibited without being acknowledged. Spot on. Thats what is so amusing about it. Svj -orionworks.com
RE: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
Normally I would also agree, however, the way things are going in this country, I don't think the Fed'l govt would care one iota, and the courts either, if they regulated something that another Dept of the govt deemed impossible... hell, I think it wouldn't even need to be diff't Depts... or, they'll just make up some double-talk and do what they want anyway. -mark -Original Message- From: Steven Johnson [mailto:svj.orionwo...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 12:55 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun From Robert Leguillon wrote: I contend that the action cannot be prohibited without being acknowledged. Spot on. Thats what is so amusing about it. Svj -orionworks.com
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
On Sat, 2011-12-10 at 11:53 -0800, Mary Yugo wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Why should it be in a populated area? Far as I know, all of Massachusetts is a populated area. And you can't make nuclear devices in the US without all sorts of permits. I don't think it would be considered a nuclear device. The regulating agency would want to know what type of nuclear device it was, and would refuse to issue the permit if it was thought to be cold fusion. Regulating agencies don't regulate unknown physics. And nothing stops anyone from doing anything, as long as the person taking action is ready to back up his actions in court. The only type of permits that Rossi would seek would be those that applied to making steam heaters. Craig
Re: [Vo]:E-Cat production in the US has begun
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Craig Haynie cchayniepub...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think it would be considered a nuclear device. Calling it a nuclear device would be the utmost irony! Sorry, you cannot being that nuclear device into the US. Uh, no, there is no such thing as a cold fusion nuclear device. Stuck! T
