Re: Re: [Vo]:Something more on the steam
Hello, Perhaps this link provides some usefull information about relative humidity RH and temperature above 100 deg C. http://www.macinstruments.com/relatv_c.htm Peter v Noorden - Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 5:24 AM Subject: Re: Re: [Vo]:Something more on the steam Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: The Testo 650 is used for measuring *humidity*, Jed, for, like, food manufacturing and storage, etc. Read that HP literature. The device measures up to 100% humidity, it claims. Wet steam is above 100% humidity. The literature claims that the device measures: CO2, CO, temperature, and relative humidity. Other parameters are calculated from these measurements. http://www.testo.com/online/embedded/Sites/INT/SharedDocuments/ProductBrochures/0563_6501_en_01.pdf It isn't HP; it is testo. The meter also measures absolute humidity g/m^3 (mass) and enthalpy (kcal/kg), which is what we want to measure. I guess enthalpy is derived from absolute humidity and temperature. Elsewhere you wrote: You misunderstood that, I believe. Look at what the thing actually measures, and look at the humidity measurement operating range. 85% (max), no condensation. This thing doesn't work in the presence of liquid water, as I read it. There would be no point to making a meter like this if it did not work in the presence of liquid water, because there is almost always some liquid water in process steam. It is never purely dry. I think people here should concede that Galantini is expert enough to select the right kind of meter after all, and it is likely he also knows how to use the meter to measure by mass instead of volume. - Jed
Re: Re: [Vo]:Something more on the steam
Ah yes. It is right there in the testo.com brochure, isn't it? I vaguely recall that I checked this months ago for the instrument used in the first test: the Delta Ohm model HD37AB1347 IAQ with a high temperature HP474AC SICRAM sensor. I listed that in the news item with a link to the brochure here: http://www.deltaohm.com/ver2010/uk/st_airQ.php?str=HD37AB1347 The first thing that brochure says is that it measures lots of stuff simultaneously including enthalpy. That's what we're looking for! Right? Without knowing as much as this helpful person Leguillon, I figured that would be enough, and I dropped the subject. I should have recalled that's what the brochure says and mentioned it here earlier. To avoid confusion let me just reiterate: in the first test they used the Delta Ohm, and during EK's test they used a Testo 650. Different instruments. My guess is that all of these instruments are designed to measure enthalpy. Why else would people pay all that money for them? What else would someone measuring steam quality want to know? - Jed
Re: Re: [Vo]:Something more on the steam
The Testo 650 is used for measuring *humidity*, Jed, for, like, food manufacturing and storage, etc. Read that HP literature. The device measures up to 100% humidity, it claims. Wet steam is above 100% humidity. The literature claims that the device measures: CO2, CO, temperature, and relative humidity. Other parameters are calculated from these measurements. I don't see anything there about determining steam quality or the amount of liquid water mixed with steam. It will only measure, on the face of it, the percentage of water vapor in air. It also gives a working range of up to 85% relative humidity without condensation. I.e., no liquid water! The brochure for the HP device says it will calculate enthalpy, but this is basically, as I read it, the heat carrying capacity of air. I don't see any hint that this thing could measure steam quality. As I wrote, someone please 'splain this thing to me! At 05:37 PM 6/20/2011, Jed Rothwell wrote: Ah yes. It is right there in the http://testo.comtesto.com brochure, isn't it? I vaguely recall that I checked this months ago for the instrument used in the first test: the Delta Ohm model HD37AB1347 IAQ with a high temperature HP474AC SICRAM sensor. I listed that in the news item with a link to the brochure here: http://www.deltaohm.com/ver2010/uk/st_airQ.php?str=HD37AB1347http://www.deltaohm.com/ver2010/uk/st_airQ.php?str=HD37AB1347 The first thing that brochure says is that it measures lots of stuff simultaneously including enthalpy. That's what we're looking for! Right? Without knowing as much as this helpful person Leguillon, I figured that would be enough, and I dropped the subject. I should have recalled that's what the brochure says and mentioned it here earlier. To avoid confusion let me just reiterate: in the first test they used the Delta Ohm, and during EK's test they used a Testo 650. Different instruments. My guess is that all of these instruments are designed to measure enthalpy. Why else would people pay all that money for them? What else would someone measuring steam quality want to know? - Jed
Re: Re: [Vo]:Something more on the steam
Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: The Testo 650 is used for measuring *humidity*, Jed, for, like, food manufacturing and storage, etc. Read that HP literature. The device measures up to 100% humidity, it claims. Wet steam is above 100% humidity. The literature claims that the device measures: CO2, CO, temperature, and relative humidity. Other parameters are calculated from these measurements. http://www.testo.com/online/embedded/Sites/INT/SharedDocuments/ProductBrochures/0563_6501_en_01.pdf It isn't HP; it is testo. The meter also measures absolute humidity g/m^3 (mass) and enthalpy (kcal/kg), which is what we want to measure. I guess enthalpy is derived from absolute humidity and temperature. Elsewhere you wrote: You misunderstood that, I believe. Look at what the thing actually measures, and look at the humidity measurement operating range. 85% (max), no condensation. This thing doesn't work in the presence of liquid water, as I read it. There would be no point to making a meter like this if it did not work in the presence of liquid water, because there is almost always some liquid water in process steam. It is never purely dry. I think people here should concede that Galantini is expert enough to select the right kind of meter after all, and it is likely he also knows how to use the meter to measure by mass instead of volume. - Jed
Re: Re: [Vo]:Something more on the steam
At 11:24 PM 6/20/2011, you wrote: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax mailto:a...@lomaxdesign.coma...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: The Testo 650 is used for measuring *humidity*, Jed, for, like, food manufacturing and storage, etc. Read that HP literature. The device measures up to 100% humidity, it claims. Wet steam is above 100% humidity. The literature claims that the device measures: CO2, CO, temperature, and relative humidity. Other parameters are calculated from these measurements. http://www.testo.com/online/embedded/Sites/INT/SharedDocuments/ProductBrochures/0563_6501_en_01.pdfhttp://www.testo.com/online/embedded/Sites/INT/SharedDocuments/ProductBrochures/0563_6501_en_01.pdf It isn't HP; it is testo. The meter also measures absolute humidity g/m^3 (mass) and enthalpy (kcal/kg), which is what we want to measure. I guess enthalpy is derived from absolute humidity and temperature. Jed, these devices measure a number of things directly, and others are calculated. I see no sign that the device is designed to measure steam quality. It's not a described application. Consider the humidity specifications: ±2 %RH (+2 to +98 %RH) The accuracy is not rated above 98% RH. The Testo unit described has a bit more range than the HP device used by Essen and Kullander. Elsewhere you wrote: You misunderstood that, I believe. Look at what the thing actually measures, and look at the humidity measurement operating range. 85% (max), no condensation. This thing doesn't work in the presence of liquid water, as I read it. There would be no point to making a meter like this if it did not work in the presence of liquid water, because there is almost always some liquid water in process steam. It is never purely dry. None of the probes seem to be design for measuring steam quality, and what the devices do measure directly would not provide you with steam quality, as far as I can tell. Wet steam would be at 100% RH, or above, in fact, i.e., a steam cloud is carrying water above the saturation vapor pressure. Humidity, quite simply, is of the air, not the water droplets that might be carried by the air. A cloud is generally at 100% humidity, if the water is as fine mist. I think people here should concede that Galantini is expert enough to select the right kind of meter after all, and it is likely he also knows how to use the meter to measure by mass instead of volume. I would not assume that from what we have seen. Remember people making assumptions about Fleischmann measuring neutrons. He'd never done it before Does Galantini have specific experience with this kind of measurement? Where have we seen that? If we knew how he obtained the steam quality statement from what the meter showed, we'd have a clue. We don't have that kind of report. That the questions have been asked but have not found clear answers leaves me with no confidence in this evidence. There may be other reasons to think that the demonstrations really showed serious heat generation. But this steam quality evidence, unless someone with experience with that meter can show differently, falls flat. I don't see that the meter is designed to measure steam quality at all, and from the specifications, I'd expect it to be useless for that. So am I misunderstanding the specifications? After all, I haven't used a meter like this for this purpose either!
Re: Re: [Vo]:Something more on the steam
It is misleading (and slightly anal) to believe precision measurements of steam quality are required to prove it is not a scam. As Jed says for an effect of this magnitude rough and ready estimation methods suffice: quickly feel the steam and view the steam where it exits the reactor. If it doesn't sting and it is invisible it passes the dry steam test. Harry - Original Message From: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, June 21, 2011 12:32:21 AM Subject: Re: Re: [Vo]:Something more on the steam At 11:24 PM 6/20/2011, you wrote: Abd ul-Rahman Lomax mailto:a...@lomaxdesign.coma...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: The Testo 650 is used for measuring *humidity*, Jed, for, like, food manufacturing and storage, etc. Read that HP literature. The device measures up to 100% humidity, it claims. Wet steam is above 100% humidity. The literature claims that the device measures: CO2, CO, temperature, and relative humidity. Other parameters are calculated from these measurements. http://www.testo.com/online/embedded/Sites/INT/SharedDocuments/ProductBrochures/0563_6501_en_01.pdfhttp://www.testo.com/online/embedded/Sites/INT/SharedDocuments/ProductBrochures/0563_6501_en_01.pdf It isn't HP; it is testo. The meter also measures absolute humidity g/m^3 (mass) and enthalpy (kcal/kg), which is what we want to measure. I guess enthalpy is derived from absolute humidity and temperature. Jed, these devices measure a number of things directly, and others are calculated. I see no sign that the device is designed to measure steam quality. It's not a described application. Consider the humidity specifications: ±2 %RH (+2 to +98 %RH) The accuracy is not rated above 98% RH. The Testo unit described has a bit more range than the HP device used by Essen and Kullander. Elsewhere you wrote: You misunderstood that, I believe. Look at what the thing actually measures, and look at the humidity measurement operating range. 85% (max), no condensation. This thing doesn't work in the presence of liquid water, as I read it. There would be no point to making a meter like this if it did not work in the presence of liquid water, because there is almost always some liquid water in process steam. It is never purely dry. None of the probes seem to be design for measuring steam quality, and what the devices do measure directly would not provide you with steam quality, as far as I can tell. Wet steam would be at 100% RH, or above, in fact, i.e., a steam cloud is carrying water above the saturation vapor pressure. Humidity, quite simply, is of the air, not the water droplets that might be carried by the air. A cloud is generally at 100% humidity, if the water is as fine mist. I think people here should concede that Galantini is expert enough to select the right kind of meter after all, and it is likely he also knows how to use the meter to measure by mass instead of volume. I would not assume that from what we have seen. Remember people making assumptions about Fleischmann measuring neutrons. He'd never done it before Does Galantini have specific experience with this kind of measurement? Where have we seen that? If we knew how he obtained the steam quality statement from what the meter showed, we'd have a clue. We don't have that kind of report. That the questions have been asked but have not found clear answers leaves me with no confidence in this evidence. There may be other reasons to think that the demonstrations really showed serious heat generation. But this steam quality evidence, unless someone with experience with that meter can show differently, falls flat. I don't see that the meter is designed to measure steam quality at all, and from the specifications, I'd expect it to be useless for that. So am I misunderstanding the specifications? After all, I haven't used a meter like this for this purpose either!
