[WSG] shrink-to-fit width in Opera
One of my annoyances with Opera is that it calculates the shrink-to- fit width of absolutely positioned elements to be the minimum width, basically adding a break after each word. I wanted to write about how annoying this was, but thought I'd better check the specs first, just in case it was actually right. http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visudet.html#the-width-property However I'm having trouble understanding the spec (no surprise there) Here is the pertinent extract. Calculation of the shrink-to-fit width is similar to calculating the width of a table cell using the automatic table layout algorithm. Roughly: calculate the preferred width by formatting the content without breaking lines other than where explicit line breaks occur, and also calculate the preferred minimum width, e.g., by trying all possible line breaks. CSS 2.1 does not define the exact algorithm. Thirdly, calculate the available width: this is found by solving for 'width' after setting 'left' (in case 1) or 'right' (in case 3) to 0. 1. 'left' and 'width' are 'auto' and 'right' is not 'auto', then the width is shrink-to-fit. Then solve for 'left' 3. 'width' and 'right' are 'auto' and 'left' is not 'auto', then the width is shrink-to-fit . Then solve for 'right' Then the shrink-to-fit width is: min(max(preferred minimum width, available width), preferred width). Thoughts? Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] shrink-to-fit width in Opera
First, which version of Opera are you testing ? 7.5blah, 8.02, 8.5 Second, what kind of content goes into that absolute positioned element ? Text If I put an element with just some static text in, Opera 7.5 - 9 prev display the same as Firefox (1.6a1 nightly), Camino (1.0b), iCab, Safari 1.2+. Doesn't for me. One of my many irritations with Opera. The spec doesn't specify exactly what should happen; here is the key: quote CSS 2.1 does not define the exact algorithm/quote Well yes, but essentially it is either going to expand to 100%, shrink to the minimum width or shrink to fit the available space. What exactly is a line break ? Does the end of a *floated* span constitute a line break in this context ? New line Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
I thought it was a quite descriptive name for an old bug. Must be a
flaw in my Norwenglish... :-)
Your Norwenglish is good. Much better than my Englegen. I'd just
never heard the bug name before so was curious.
I normally just do
body {
font-size: 62.5%;
}
The size everything else as ems.
I officially don't care about Opera so am happy to avoid using 100.0%;
Yours
Andy Budd
http://www.andybudd.com/
01273 241355
07880 636677
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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Christian Montoya wrote: It gets worse... W3C gave you a CSS ERROR, which means they checked your site just as you were editing, I'm sure... so the name is wrong, the listing is wrong, and now you are disqualified from the featured list. Hate it when that happens! That's very odd. Anybody got any idea why the CSS validator should be throwing up an error on: line-height: 1; but is happy with line-height: 1.0; ? Looks like a bug in the validator to me. Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] CSS Validator Bug
It would seem that the CSS validator has a bug in its handling of
number values.
The CSS spec says that:
A number can either be an integer, or it can be zero or more
digits followed by a dot (.) followed by one or more digits.
So 1 and 1.0 are both valid numbers.
However if you run the following code through the validator:
http://www.andybudd.com/test/number.css
which contains
h3 {
line-height: 1.0
}
h4 {
line-height: 1;
}
It says that 1 is not a valid number and thus marks your code as
invalid!
Yours
Andy Budd
http://www.andybudd.com/
01273 241355
07880 636677
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Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
I'd say so, but wouldn't the error have more to do with the fact that the value of line-height needs a unit of reference (px, % or em)? No, line height is one of the few properties that can take a number without a unit. The unit acts as a multiplier, whereas an em say, is based on the parent font size. So line-height: 1em; and line-height: 1; can produce very different results. In general, most people mean the latter, but use the former. Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Validator Bug
Might be worth reporting this to the validator people I did that straight off, but it turns out its already a known bug. Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
On 21 Sep 2005, at 00:56, Lindsay Evans wrote: Hi Andy, Site looks great, nice and clean. And don't listen to any of these 'the font is too big' comments, it's just about perfect for my aging eyes (great, now I feel old : Thanks. Glad you like it. * I kind of expected the entire green background of the navigation items to be clickable, not a biggy though. Yes, I agree. A few people have mentioned this so its on the todo list. Cheers Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
No surprise that you didn't find it. The bug is mentioned here and there, but not in great details, AFAIK. Even ALA has triggered that bug with their last re-design, so it is easy to get it wrong. As others have mentioned already: it's the 'em' on body that triggers that IE bug. More exactly, em-values less than 1.01 em is the usual trigger, while larger em-values on body may work just fine. A percentage-value on body is safe, regardless of value. 100.01% is fine, but any other value will do as well, as long as differences regarding the exact 'tip-over' points for converting em/% into px is taken into account so all browsers display text (more or less) in the same size to begin with. It doesn't matter whether 'em' or '%' are used for text-elements further in, since the IE-bug bug is only triggered on body itself. Thanks for the feedback on this IE bug. As I said I've not experienced this before, so I'm kind of intrigued. Out of interest, how does the bug manifest its self on our site? It seems that a lot of people know about it and know the fix. However there doesn't really seem to be much in the way of documentation. If anybody can find some URL's, I'd appreciate it. Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Screenshots of original page on IE6/win2K-pro, window w:700/h:860: -2: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_smallest.png -1: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_smaller.png 0: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/normal.png +1: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_larger.png +2: http://www.gunlaug.no/tos/alien/size_largest.png Apart from being able to accommodate any an all wishes for 'really large' or 'really small' text :-) this bug is one we better not trigger. That does suck. Bloody IE! I changed the font size on the body from ems to % early this morning, so would you mind letting me know if those screenshots were prior to the change, or if the problem is still there? Sorry to be a pain Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: BTW: can I keep/use those screenshots in case I want to write something about that old bug on my own site? They sure got the point through! As long as you mention that we fixed the problem and provide a link to the site, I don't see any problem with it. Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Suggestion #1: Spell-check We have gone over the site a couple of times, however nothing on the web is ever finished. If you've found some particular typos, it would be great if you could let me know what they are. Suggestion #2: Why 100% table design? You can't control the way your user sees your site. I have a 21 inch monitor and it stretches all the way across and is somewhat overwhelming. Um, its actually a pure CSS layout, so no tables were harmed. Part of the point of web standards in general is that the user and user agent have final control of the layout, not the designer. So if the page is too wide on a 21 inch monitor, why not reduce the window size? However I don't want to get into the whole fixed vs flexible layout debate or we'll be here all night :-) Suggestion #3: Font size it too big...try dropping the size a little. I know accessibility is a concern, but it coming off as trying too hard. Not trying hard at all. We liked the big fonts size partly for accessibility, but also partly because we were fed up with tiny designer sized fonts. I do wonder if the size is a little to big, especially on lower screen resolutions. However on large screen resolutions I think it works well. I guess if you personally find it too big, you could always knock it down a notch. This is just my opinion...I might be wrong, good job overall however. Always good to hear this kind of feedback as its a good way to test your beliefs and assumptions. Cheers PS - your personal website is quite nice however, clean, crisp, and the user will have the same experience every time they visit, regardless of the machine. Yes, I must sort that out. About due for a redesign :-) Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
On 20 Sep 2005, at 18:33, Damian Sweeney wrote: Hi Andy, Great look and feel. I like the font sizes, they're refreshingly readable. One wierd issue though. In Firefox on Debian (sarge), trying to use the mousewheel dies half way down the page. I usually only encounter problems like this with things like google ads and flash animations, but with those if I move the mouse away and resume using the wheel it works. With clearleft I can't continue to scroll at all with the wheel until I move the vertical scroll bar manually. It's a small issue to be sure, but if anyone can figure it out, I guess it would be the 'web-design supergroup' ;-). I'll check the behaviour on my Mac at work when I get in. Apparently it's a Firefox bug relating to overflow:auto. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=97283 Just went to check in a couple of other browsers - Opera is fine, but the site dropped off the radar when trying to test in anything else. Um, do you mean that the site doesn't work in any other browser other than Opera or Firefox? Can I ask what you tested it on? Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Q: do you trigger the 'extreme font-resizing bug' in IE/win on purpose? Sure makes 'largest' large enough, but 'smallest' ends up a bit too small. I have to be honest and admit that I haven't come across that bug before. Did a bit of a search but couldn't find any details. Could you elaborate? Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
A little on the boring side, where are the images, the site is just text. Well I wanted to make the logo spin, but the others thought it was a bad idea ;-) Seriously though, we will be adding pictures of us on the relevant about pages, as well as creating a case study area in the not too distant future to highlight interesting work. However I do think that the site is about the text rather than superfluous images, so we wanted to put the content at the forefront of the site. Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Clearleft.com
Sorry, my bad. I should have been clearer. The site failed to load from about 3:30am Melbourne for a couple of hours. Can't remember when it came back, but when it did the site worked well on other browsers. Phew, had me worried there for a second. I guess our servers must have got stuck with all the traffic from the WSG :-) Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
I can't see what the point is. The W3C has no control over Java or many other technologies that are proprietry or closed, but that does not stop them from becoming or meeting W3C standards or compliance. The original question asked why the W3C hadn't written a spec for Flash. My answer still stands that it's not theirs to write a spec for. However If you can show me the W3C page that details the Java spec I may change my mind :-) Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 Come see me speak at @Media2005 in London, England, 9-10th Jun. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] make poverty history website
Nancy Johnson wrote: Is it true that the W3C has not done a spec for Flash? If that is so why? Because Flash is a proprietary product! Yours Andy Budd http://www.andybudd.com/ 01273 241355 07880 636677 Come see me speak at @Media2005 in London, England, 9-10th Jun. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] [on-topic]wireframes
Iva Koberg wrote: What's stopping you from creating the prototype boxes in XHTML + CSS? It has the added advantage of meaning that once you've got your layout, you've also got your document structure. Just add the content and remove the border: 1px solid black; properties and you're done. One of the points of using prototypes is that they are fast to build and thus desposable. If you're using XHTML/CSS prototypes there is the temptation to turn it into the final template. This either means that you spend too long thinking about the code/structure of a prototype that is likely to change, or you end up building in issues due to the fact that the prototype was built rapidly. I tend to use low-fi wireframes then hi-fi prototypes, usually output from the Phtoshop/Fireworks templates as regular table based HTML. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] validation logos - kitemarks?
I think most people put validation logos on their sites for peers. This is often just vanity/showing off. However other web developers do click these logos and report back if they find problems, so they can have their benefits. I know, I know, we should al make sure our pages validate when they have been changes, but sometimes it's easy to forget, especially as most of the time it's not relay mission critical. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Quirks DTD
I think what would be more interesting is if browsers let you set your rendering mode (quirks vs standards). This would be really useful for testing purposes. However it would be even more useful when writing user stylesheets. I wrote an accessible user stylesheet a while back that changed text site and contrast, linarized tables etc. It worked fine on sites with a strict dtd. However most of the sites I tested didn't have a dtd, throwing the browser into quirks mode and screwing up my custom stylesheet. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: XHTML Strict alternative to ol start=11
Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Sorry, ended up being a cyclic argument, but you see what I mean...and *that's* what Andy meant (if I may be so bold as to make an educated guess) That's exactly what I meannt. Go for your life :-) Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: XHTML Strict alternative to ol start=11
Ian Fenn wrote: Thanks for that, Douglas. Unfortunately my client has accessibility guidelines that insist the pages are built in XHTML Strict. So what do they believe the accessibility advantages of XHTML Strict are? As far as I'm aware valid and semantically correct HTML is just as accessible as XHTML strict. And I'm guessing they probably aren't serving their pages up as XML so strictly speaking they are serving their pages up as HTML anyway. This kind of pettiness and misunderstanding of accessibility really gets my goat. It's a damn shame if you ask me ;-) Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ p.s. no real goats were harmed in this email ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] cover me -- I'm gonna be naughty!
Ted Drake wrote: But if we need to do it to be competitive, would this at least protect those that are innocent, the people who need to use screenreaders? I've an idea. Quite a few people run personal sites that allow people to leave comments. You could create a script that automatically leaves comments on their site along with a link. That way you'd inherit some of their Google juice. Another method would be to send lots of emails to random people. If you send enough you are bound to find somebody interested in your products. I mean, if you need to be competitive you should really explore all the options. :-) Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards?
designer wrote: - Speed Development Hey - she'll be expecting me to reduce my prices next year! :-) If you're pricing is time based, reducing the amount of time spent on coding could mean that you increase the time you spend on design, IA, SEO and other activities that provide the client with a better ROI. If your pricing is value based, it's good for the client because they will get their site 2 weeks earlier, meaning tow weeks extra benefit and two weeks less of their precious time wasted. - Simplify Maintenance, Increase Opportunity Ditto! Ditto above. Time based - spend more time on things that provide a greater ROI. Value based - their site is down for shorter lengths of time and can react quicker to market changes - Open Up Access Options OK - Reduce Bandwidth Costs Not relevant - small site, with folk increasingly being on a high speed line. Here in UK (where it's called Broadband) the user pays a standard fee, no matter how much/how long he/she uses it. (that's for small/simple sites, of course) This is about how much your hosting company charges your client, not how much the site visitors ISP's charge. Hosts will often charge £X over the YGB they give with their standard package. For most sites this isn't an issue but it is for popular sites. - Improve User Experience How? Speed? Broadband again - makes it MUCH less of an issue. Download times still do matter, even if you're on broadband. Also the more people that get broadband the more contention issues will come into play. However more than actual download speed is perceived download speed. Slow and unresponsive pages can often be down to rendering as much as they can actual download speed. In my experience, (and this is far from scientific) sites using CSS for layout appear to render faster than nested table layouts. Turning that on it's head, what's left for a client to get excited about? Fats loading, accessible pages that Google will love. Supplier independence, easier maintenance and faster time to market. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS
On 28 Jan 2005, at 01:28, Mike Pepper wrote: Take a look at some fought over keyphrases like 'website development' in Google UK. You'll find many sites spamming with irrelevant noscript, off-screen absolute positioned text, minute text, hidden layers, even some cretins with WOW (white-on-white) text. And you know what? Google doesn't do a damn thing about it. I think that's a bit unfair. It's a bit like complaining that the police do nothing about crime in your area when none of the residents can be bothered to report it. If you see a site which use dubious methods to gain a ranking advantage, contact Google and complain. I've a friend who's a professional SEO and one of the main things he and many of his colleagues do is report dubious sites. If after a month or so nothing has been done about it, then complain about it. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Search Engines and CSS
Mike Pepper wrote: I have sent literally hundreds of mails to Google illustrating exactly what the miscreants are doing and how. I take SEO seriously and know most if not all the techniques. They have never responded in any way other than their automated responders. I eventually gave up in the knowledge that I was wasting my time and energy. It's not unfair; it's my experience over the past 3 years. Sorry Mike, I got the wrong end of the stick there. I thought you were complaining about them not automagically picking up on spamdexing. While I'm not surprised that you didn't get a personal response I am a little surprised that the sites in question haven't been penalised. I wonder if you report your competition to Google and they do nothing about it, you'd have a case for suing them for loss of earnings? This lack of responsiveness gives unscrupulous SEO's an good incentive to spam Google while hurting the more honest SEO's out there. Now where did I put my list of keywords, my doorway pages and my cloaking scripts? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] accessibility statements
The Bo$$ wrote: I really don't think accesskeys are all that good for accessiblity though. See http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2005/01/04/im_still_off/ I think that's a matter of opinion. If you use numbers for your accesskeys the conflicts are fairly limited. Even if few people use them, they aren't doing any harm. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] a good accessibility primer
Justin Thorp wrote: http://www.digital-web.com/articles/accessibility_from_the_ground_up/ I did a presentation on Accessibility the other night. If you're interested, here are my lecture notes. http://www.andybudd.com/presentations/skillswap05/accessibility/ Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
On 12 Jan 2005, at 18:25, Mike Foskett wrote: Creating a method of output without an equivalent method of input seems more than oversight. Forms are a means of input. Tables are a means of displaying tabular data. Input and output mechanisms rarely have to be the same. I input data to a computer using a keyboard. It's output to screen. An input is a data object. Data objects stacked neatly by row and file are by definition tabular. Sorry, but that's utter rot. If you're going to get all OOP on my ass, input would be a data object method, whereas the data it's self would be a property of the object. Completely different things! You can come up with as many ways to justify the use of layout tables for forms, but it doesn't make it right! Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
Ted Drake wrote: I'm not one to say screw accessibility, I need my pages to look purty, but the point of my question is: we may have 30 to 50 people registering. If I include a label for each fieldset, the page is going to be bulky and possibly less usable for those with sight. A table would make life easy, but making life easy isn't justification enough to do it wrong. I'd really like to make life easy and give some accessibility in the process. Having 50 labels that say age1, age2, age2..age50 for the 50 age inputs doesn't seem appropriate for the average user. I have to admit that I'm confused by what exactly your doing. Maybe posting up your form would help. It sounds like you're saying that you're creating one massive form intended to take the input of 50 people which sounds like madness. Why not just create a form that takes the input from one person at a time like most forms do? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
Pringle, Ron wrote: I'm sorry, I'm coming onto this thread late, so I might be misinformed as to what you're trying to accomplish. So you have a form with a variable number of fields depending on how many travelers are to be insured, correct? With a maximum of 50? Ah, now I understand what Ted is trying to do. Frankly, there is not going to be an easy way of doing this, regardless of the accessibility issues. Thats a LOT of data to enter. I would almost think you'd want to deal with each traveler separately, one at a time, in some sort of paged form. For instance, if I fill out the initial part of the form and indicate 5 travelers to be insured, the form would be submitted, the initial form fields temporarily stored, and then the next form presented with fields for traveler 1. Once that is filled and submitted, on to traveler two. Absolutely. Doing it any other way would be a usability nightmare. In that case, your form is broken into smaller chunks and leaving the labels on each field would be essential and not even an issue. Exactly This would seem to make it easier for both your sighted users and visually impaired users. My experience with forms has been that it is better to progressively present large forms (along with an appropriate indication of where in the process the user is). I would think that approach would increase your completion percentage as opposed to presenting a huge form with up to 50 name, age, etc. fields to be filled out at once. Couldn't agree more. A huge form as described would scare the living daylights out of most people and would be ripe for errors. Much better to break these things down into easier to deal with chunks. Sounds like the problem is with Ted's form design and the accessibility issue/tables issue is just a symptom. Always better to treat the cause rather than the symptoms. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
Mike Foskett wrote: Sorry Andy, I'll have to agree to disagree. Personally speaking, the use of a table to layout tabular input is as valid as using a table to layout tabular output. and Kornel Lesinski wrote: I think that inputs in a table are ok. This is tabular data, although not output, but input, but the structure certainly is tabular. It seems to me that there is a lot of post rationalisation and spurious justification going on here. If you want to use tables to lay out your forms (or anything else for that matter) then go for it. It just seems odd to try and justify it in this manner. I doubt very much if tables were created as a handy way of displaying forms even if we can post rationalise it now. I mean, if we're splitting hairs and getting semantic, isn't all information on a website really just data? So why can't present it all using tables? Part of the point of using CSS for layout is it gives us the ability to separate the content from the presentation. Slapping a form into table cells doesn't allow this. It makes it much harder for instance to restyle the form so the labels appear above, rather than next to the form inputs. It's like my girlfriend not wanting to order chips because they are fattening and then eating half on mine instead. The intention is good, but it doesn't make the calories go away :-) Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
Kornel Lesinski wrote: The point is that it is not layout table. Of course it's a layout table. You're using a table so you can lay out your labels next to your inputs all nice and neat. It doesn't contain any data yet, just a bunch of form inputs. It's not data, it's a means of laying out a data input interface! It has semantic value. It's a kind of table that can have summary, caption, headers and contains repeating sets of data. I don't think that has anything to do with it as you could easily argue that certain types of site content could also benefit from these things. Forms already give you the ability to associate labels with inputs, group sets of form controls together and give them a cation. You don't need a table to give form controls semantic meaning. hairs and getting semantic, isn't all information on a website really just data? So why can't present it all using tables? Because it is not *tabular* data, unlike the practicular form that this discussion is all about. Why? How can you say that a bunch of empty form elements are tabular data even if there isn't any data? At least a page of news stories actually contains something that could reasonably be described as data? When you apply for a bank load do they give you a table of blank data to fill in or do they give you a form to fill in? Table: An orderly arrangement of data, especially one in which the data are arranged in columns and rows in an essentially rectangular form Form: Document with blanks for the insertion of details or information They seem distinctly different things to me. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
Mike Foskett wrote: Using a table is not an issue, form data is tabular. You say that like it's fact when it's really a matter of opinion. Personally I'd argue that a form is not a means of displaying tabular data, it's an input mechanism. It seems crazy to me that people will come up with spurious arguments simply to justify using a table. If you want to use a table, just do it. For accessibility I'd suggest using a label on each input but hide it visually using one of the standard techniques. Um, how is hiding the label going to improve accessibility? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
On 12 Jan 2005, at 10:47, Mike Foskett wrote: Andy Budd wrote: Personally I'd argue that a form is not a means of displaying tabular data, it's an input mechanism. Er... Agreed. I was of the opinion, perhaps incorrectly, that the form in question was intended to input tabular data hence the table. I thought what I said was pretty clear so I'm a little confused how you can agree with it and then contradict it in the next sentence. What I'm saying is that tables are meant to display tabular data however a form is an input mechanism, not data itself. Thus in my opinion it would be incorrect to use a table to layout a form. The use of a label on such a table would be to aide screen readers specifically. Yes they can read headers but in practice this feature is rarely switched on. So by using a hidden label the screen reader states the label text, while the display remains uncluttered. What I'm saying is that there is no reason to hide the labels. Many screenreaders ignore hidden elements and allowing people to see what they are supposed to enter by use of a label could hardly be described as clutter. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Can I use a table in a form?
On 12 Jan 2005, at 16:42, Ted Drake wrote: I have tried hiding labels in the past. But I came across very inconsistent behavior. Some labels would show, some wouldn't. I was using display:none. I'm sure there was something else going on in my code, but it seemed like the inconsistency in browsers treating forms made the label hiding an iffy proposition. Has anyone else had this problem? Don't hide your labels. You may be able to trick bobby in giving you a AAA rating but hiding them won't help the accessibility of your site. Currently, our forms do not validate as AAA WAI because I don't have individual labels on a group of ten age inputs. I read somewhere a person suggested placing objects within the label. Could I have all of the ages on one row and wrap the td's inside the label? That doesn't sound like valid coding. How do people know what to put into these inputs? Surely each one needs a label of some kind? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] list spacing
IE5 has a bug that can put extra space between list items. Setting the li to be inline fixes this issue. http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2003/12/ css_crib_sheet_1_gaps_between_vertical_nav_elements_in_ie5/ Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Site check www.stgauderic.net/en/
Chris Taylor wrote: BrowserCam is great, but doesn't give you any help regarding useability - other pairs of eyes are what is needed. Before trying BrowserCam I also used to post to places like here and CSS-Discuss to get a wider range of browsers/OS tests and recommendations for fixing any CSS issues that cropped up. However if I wanted to get a more general opinion on usability, design etc I'd choose a more general web design list like evolt, rather than one dedicated to CSS/Web standards. Therefore a please check this in Mac/PC/WebTV/whatever is pretty valid, as far as I'm concerned. I think when requesting help from any mailing list, it's best to be as specific as possible as it avoids wasting other peoples time. I'm sure quite a few people would have responded telling you that it looks great on xyz browser, only to find that you know that already. Much better to explicitly ask for usability feedback if that was what you wanted. Probably even better to post to a general web dev mailing list or even a usability list. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Off-topic - Earthquake/Tsunami help
If you have a blog, why not join BlogAid and offer to donate your site earnings for January to the aid agency of your choice. http://www.blogaid.org.uk/ Andy Budd ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] molly gets a redux makeover
Patrick Lauke wrote: the lovely molly holzschlag gets a makeover courtesy of redux, stylist to the stars. Lol, you make yourself sound like some kind of new media hair dresser. Nice site though. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Nav bar rounding error problem
Hi Folks, I'm creating a simple vertical nav bar using a styled list. Should be pretty easy as it's something I've done a hundred times. However this time I've run into problems with browser rounding errors. I've come up with another way of doing it, but it's not as elegant as the initial version. I've posted up an explanation with a couple of test cases and I'd be grateful if the CSS geniuses on the list could have a look and suggest a better way of achieving the desired results. http://www.message.uk.com/test/nav/ As always your help in much appreciated. p.s. I have to come clean and admit I've also cross posted this to css-discuss. Hope nobody minds. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards Macromedia Contribute
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also, I must admit I'm growing rather weary of all the negative remarks about Dreamweaver. I too am a Dreamweaver user. However on OS X at least, the preview mode still isn't up to scratch, although it is better than the previous version. Kornel Lesinski wrote: Are you sure? Some time ago there was a deal between Macromedia and Opera: http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2002/07/20020702.dml (oh, and Apple: http://www.macminute.com/2003/09/30/opera) Macromedia licensed Opera to be the rendering engine on OS X. However I believe they use a different rendering engine on Windoze. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Changing Standard
On 12 Dec 2004, at 02:51, berry wrote:
Why using a:link ?
a /a means that the word inside is a link
a { color:blue; text-decoration:underline; }
is the same as setting
a:link { color:blue; text-decoration:underline; }
Link is a redundant tag
No it's not.
Your first example targets all anchor elements. Your second example
targets only anchor elements that haven't been visited!
Common guys, rtfm
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/selector.html#link-pseudo-classes
Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
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Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
Regarding charging - like anything, the more experienced you get the faster you get so it's a bit silly to charge across a project on the basis of time spent. I agree with pretty much everything you've said apart from this. Firstly I don't necessarily think that the more experienced you are the *faster* the project goes. In fact I'd say that the more experienced you are the longer certain things can take because you want to do them right. For instance your beginner web designer will probably do everything in Drewamweaver whereas I'll hand code pretty much everything. Secondly, the better you get, the higher your daily rate. Sure you can do things faster but this is reflected in what you charge. I honestly wouldn't know where to start pricing a job if it wasn't based on time and materials. The whole trying to guess what the client is willing to spend approach just smacks of unprofessionalism to me, and makes clients wary of web designers in general. Apart from that I totally agree that you don't need to sell web standards and accessibility. They should be part of your workflow, not an added service. What you should do is sell your clients on the business benefits you provide. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
Kristof Rutten wrote: How do you convince your client to spend a little more on the design, the coding and the usability when the most simple logic doesn't work ? Remember that most clients don't care a jot about accessibility and web standards. Sell them on the business benefits. However if the clients is more interested in cost than quality, there will always be somebody willing to do the job for less. Rather than blame the clients, you probably need to rethink the market you're aiming at. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Sometimes you just cant help people ...
Screenreaders have loads of useful features built in like the ability to bring up a list of all the headings on a page and then jump to that heading. However the vast majority of screenreader users don't use these advanced features. The same goes with websites. Just because you add things in like skip nav and access keys, you shouldn't automatically assume that everybody will use them, or even know what they mean. I don't necessarily think it's a naming issue, although as a number of people have pointed out, JAWS pronounces content differently depending on context. I think it's just that, while in the web accessibility community skip nav is a recognised convention, it hasn't seeped into the screenreader community at large yet. It's a bit like adding a home link to the logo of a site. Most web designers do this by default, but even now, there are loads of web users who are unaware of this convention. If a more experienced web user was to show then this convention they would no doubt start using it. However generally web users stick to their own patters until there is a compelling need to deviate from them. Maybe we should start putting a para about skip nav links in our accessibility statements along with a description of our accesskeys, compliance goals etc. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] It's so frustrating. Webstandars, accesibility and Firefox as a sales argument.
john wrote: I'm not sure I understand why it would cost more to use web standards. Even if it did on the design and build, it would surely even out once maintenance costs were factored in. The problem isn't web standards or not web standards, the problem seems to be quality vs cost. If you do quality work it takes longer and so costs more. If you do a bodge job it gets done quicker and so costs less. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG][OT] Site Check please
paul west wrote: I want to go there - now!!! Me to! Another nice CSS site added to my bookmarks. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Mac Tools Kit for Web Standards Developer
Not forgetting Style Master http://www.westciv.com/style_master/ Hugh Todd wrote: Geoff, The text editors I know of for the Mac are (in rough order): 1) BBEdit. King pin. Expensive but comprehensive, with Web Preview. http://www.barebones.com 2) skEdit. Popular, shareware http://www.skti.org/skEdit.php 3) SubEthaEdit. Includes collaborative feature. http://www.codingmonkeys.de/subethaedit/ 4) jEdit. Cross-platform, Java-based. http://www.jedit.org/ 5) TextWrangler. Cut-down BBEdit from the same source. 4) TextMate. Just released. http://www.macromates.com/ 5) Smultron. http://smultron.sourceforge.net/ Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web Design Scene in Christchurch
A friends partner has just been given a job offer in Christchurch but it would depend on them being able to find work while they were over there. Just wondering what the scene was like and if there were any well respected names in Christchurch they could try. Darren Wood wrote: There is a little one, as far as I know...why Chch? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Web Design Scene in Christchurch
Sorry for the rather random and off topic post, but I wonder if anybody here knows what the web design scene is like in Christchurch, NZ? Are there any particularly well known web design firms for there, especially those working in the web standards arena? Andy Budd ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web essentials briefing/ westciv CSS Guide
Web Essentials 04 looks like is turning out to be one killer event. I wish it was a little closer to home so I could make it. Everybody says Doug is an excellent speaker, and I'd really like to see Dave Shea as well. Add to that the likes of Joe Clarke, John, Russ and the rest of the Aussie crew and you've the makings of a great conference. I hope people will be blogging about it, and I'd love to see some of the presentations or even just the keynote streamed for those of us on the other side of the planet :-) If you're based in Oz however you'd be a fool to miss it. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] commonly used order of styles within a css class
Sean wrote: Does anyone know if there is a common way of listing styles in CSS? I don't mean the order of a:hover a: visited, or the order of specification. I am thinking more of some logical order that would be helpful to anyone else working on stylesheets I have created. Are you meaning in a micro or macro sense. i.e. how to structure sets of statement within a stylesheet or how to structure a set of declarations within a statement? If it's the former there tend to be a couple of main ways. One is to group statements into logical types, such as all layout goes in one place, all text stuff in another. However I personally break this info into separate stylesheets as I find it easier to manage. Another popular way is to structure stylesheets based on selector type, so you may have all element selectors first, then all id's and lastly all classes. I can see the logic behind this but it's not something I favour. The way I tend to arrange statements is by position in the flow of the document. So I'll have all universal statements at the top, then statements relating to the header, nav, content and finally footer statements at the bottom. This works well for me, but I do often find that I'll need to add a new statement later that's the same of similar to one I already have. Rather than taking the original statement out and putting it up top with the universal statements, I tend just to tack a new selector on. This means that sometimes statements aren't always exactly matching the flow of the document. This is fine if you've only got one person working on the CSS, but would get confusing if you've got multiple people using the same file. As for arranging declarations within a statement, because statements don't tend to be so long, I generally don't have a format. I simply put them in the order I write them in. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web essentials briefing/ westciv CSS Guide
Mark Harwood wrote: Yeah We really need summat like this in the UK! Fancy increasing you GeekEnd's a bit Andy? ;) Well there has been talk so you never know what may be happening next year ;-) Andy Budd ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] GeoURL/Seach engine localisation
Joshua Street wrote: I was wondering if search engines (Google, I'm looking at you) can/do make use of this ICBM data for localisation? I know that it works on IP blocks, and possibly other data, but why not this as well? Or do search engines use this information already? Richard Rutter from Clagnut is using geotags on Multimap to geographically locate blogs. http://www.clagnut.com/blog/371/ http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?lat=50.8452lon= -0.1305scale=10local=bloglocalinfosel=true Which is pretty cool. What would be cool is if you could get your mobile phone to update the geotags on your blog about your location, that way people would always know where you were. Of course you'd want to have a privacy option to turn it off. Actually strike that, it's a crap idea. If you did that, it'd be great for thieves. They know you've got loads of cool kit because you blog about it, they know where you live because of your geotags and they know if your not home, and how far away you are from home, because your mobile tells them so. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Best Aussie and Kiwi web standards designers
I'm constantly amazed by how many web standards designers there seem to be in Australia and New Zealand. I'm sure a lot of this is to do with the excellent WSG list and the great work folks like Russ and Jonh have done to promote standards in the antipodes. I've come across several really nice sites designed by aussies and kiwis, many of which I've added to my links list. However I'm always on the lookout for more cool, standards complains sites, so wondered who you guys felt which companies and individuals were turning out the best work down under? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] RE:Flash 7 CSS/markup update
Been looking back at the archives and discovered this post from a while back. Just wondering if your poking around came up with anything interesting? on Sat, 27 Sep 2003 James Ellis wrote Hi everyone Further to my presentation at the last Sydney meeting (on a Flash html to (x)html converter), I said I'd take a look at the new CSS stuff available with the new Flash Player 7. In the ActionScript dictionary shipped with FlashMX04 a reasonable amount is spent detailing the new stylesheet importer. This is all pretty standard stuff although I noticed the examples use classes rather than id's in the imported stylesheets. (no # support?). Unfortunately the CSS is, as described in the Manual, a limited set of the CSS1 Recommendation and can be seen at http://whatdoiknow.org/snaps/mx_css_support1.shtml The most interesting thing here is the tag support in FP7 and can be divided into two subsets - HTML and XML. HTML FP7 supports all the HTML4 tags that FP6 supports.. P, A, B, U, FONT, BR, LI (still no UL or OL). plus.. IMG - text floats around images, I'm assuming the img floats to the left of the containing textfield. I wonder if a class can be added to the image specifying a text alignment to move it right/center? SPAN - inline support now exists, can add classes to the tag and apply styles via the class. Makes B, U and I redundant. BODY - interesting ?? A:link, :hover and :active More interesting is that Flash Player 7 applies styles to author specified xml like tags. e.g orgWSG/orgdescriptionThe WSG /description In relation to the FHTML - XHTML wysiwyg converter we could provide a textfield that allows our marketing dept users to write content according to a predefined style, applying tags to the text using mouse selections and export that resulting XML based markup to the server. Once there we could apply XSLT to style the content for supporting browsersor convert it to HTML if we want, saving the original xml style markup for editing by our users. Further, if we have these user specified tags styled by CSS then what's stopping us using a user specified tag like h1 or acronym that just happen to be in the HTML rec. ?? :D I think a bit more experimentation is needed but a lot of this answers some of the questions bought up at the last meeting. Could be well on the way to having a standardised wysiwyg editor without having to do dodgy string replacements. The last point is Flash Player 7 footprint.. although this is not really an issue given that something like this would be used to publish markup content for web users.. just have to specify FP7 to the content managers as required. Regards James Ellis www.webqs.com Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] guide to CSS inheritance
John Horner wrote: However, I know I've read an article also by Eric, which says that those nice numbers which make so much sense at first glance are not in base ten. I'm sure it was in his own personal website, but I can't seem to find it. I remember being puzzled by it at the time. If not base 10, then what? Hex? So a specificity of 11 is actually seventeen? And 17 is actually 23? Maybe I misinterpreted something? I'd appreciate any light members could shed on this, As John Allsopp mentions, the specs say that you convert the number to a high base number. If you have 10 or more elements, classes or Id's in your selector, using base 10 could become confusing. However if you've got such overly complicated selectors in the first place, I think you've got more problems than which base to choose! So in most practical situations I think it makes sense to use base 10, which is essentially what John does in his example. And here is the article I assume John Horner was referring to http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/link-specificity.html Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?
Showing my ignorance: Don't wireframes show flow only? Like the map view in Dreamweaver? Or is it an actual possible design one creates often in Photoshop, though this article indicated Freehand. Hi Nancy, Think storyboard, only without the graphical elements Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Are wireframes necessary when using web standards?
Ian Fenn wrote: My client wanted something to show internal stakeholders so I started doing a few wireframes but suddenly wondered, Why am I doing this? Why don't I just build the website using web standards? A day later I finished a working prototype of the website in question. The client is happy but another producer has been quite vocal with his opinion that the prototype was built too early. From my perspective, a prototype has more value than wireframes. Web standards make development much more rapid, so we can respond quickly to any other needs thrown up before going into production. What do you think? Here's my take. I think wireframes are a great first step in developing a site with a complex user flow. I'll often literally just sketch them on paper. They take no time at all and are very easy to change. Because they are rough, people don't get too attached to them as well, which is a bonus. If I'm creating slightly more polished wireframes I'll do them in Freehand. I've all the widgets and templates created, so I can knock a batch of wireframes up very quickly. I can annotate them myself with instructions or print them out and have people scribble on them with suggestions. All very useful. I can then hand them over to the client and they can sign each one off. This forces the client to understand and take responsibility for each wireframe and the signed off wireframes become part of our project spec. HTML prototypes can be extremely useful as they give you and the client a real understanding of the user flow. It's fine looking through a batch of wireframes, but nothing gives you the feel of a website like, er, a website. However I think you have to be a particularly gifted developer to be able to knock up a half descent HTML template in anything near the time it takes to create one in Freehand (or the graphics package of your choice). Also for the HTML template to be as flexible as it's paper equivalent you really do need some mechanism for adding notes/instructions (like a div that you can toggle on and off) and allowing the client to comment and sign them off. Obviously as they are HTML there is no way you can really include them in your spec. The other big issue is that people get very protective of their 'code'. I could see it being very tempting not to change something on a wireframe because it's a 'hassle' rather than for any strategic reasons. also their is the temptation to try and cut corners and turn your prototype into the real thing. Never a good idea in my book, as, by definition, a prototype is a rough, rushed version of what you actually want to build. My position them would be to always wireframe and to build prototypes when you have the time/budget. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] pagesauce.com
Tim Yang wrote: Hi I'm just floating an idea. I was quite interested several months ago in re-doing some big non-standards sites like slate.com into standards compliance for my portfolio. I also just wanted to find out if I had the skills to meet the challenge. Rather than make over a big site for your portfolio, why not offer your services to a charity or not for profit group who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford your design services. That way you'd have a real, working site to show, rather than a standards compliant clone. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Fixed vs flexible layouts
Lee Roberts wrote: Andy wanted to know what the WCAG working group members had to say about fixed and scalable width layouts. I am a member of the working group. Well, I gave an education and it seems the topic has grown to now include more about mobile devices. The purpose of variable width or elastic designs is to help people by allowing them to increase their font size without destroying the design. Yes, you will end up with right-scrolls. It doesn't matter what you do. Thanks for that Lee. So are you saying that the sole purpose of checkpoint 3.7 is to accommodate the resizing of layouts along with text? Does that mean in this case, pixels aren't being considered as relative units, contrary to what the specs say? I have to admit that I have huge problems with the guidelines. Most notably because they don't really tell you why each checkpoint is necessary and how failure to comply can reduce accessibility. Some are obvious, but many others aren't. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Fixed vs flexible layouts
Hi folks, Everybody has an opinion on fixed vs flexible layouts. Some people prefer how fixed width sites look, and there is little doubt that they are easier to build. Others hate the whitespace around fixed width designs, thinking they look ridiculous on large monitors. For a site to get a AA accessibility rating, you are supposed to use relative units (%, em) rather than fixed units (px). However the WAI guidelines do say that, if you use fixed units, you must make sure that your site is usable. Personal preferences aside, what accessibility problems to people see with fixed width layouts and what are the scale of these problems. Could the same arguments hold true for elastic layouts (layouts based on ems) and do flexible layouts (those based on %) have their own accessibility issues? Is it acceptable for the vast majority of fixed width CSS based sites to claim AA compliance if all other priority 1 and 2 checkpoints are met? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Hacks
Whenever I trawl lists like css-discuss, I'm always surprised about the amount of hack related discussion there is. People are always talking about the holy hack, the underscore hack or the star hack, about IE7, the high pass filter or the mid pass filter. As somebody who is quite experienced with CSS you'd be forgiven for thinking that I'd know about all these hacks. However about the only hack I use (and have ever actually needed) is Taneks old school box model hack, and even this I use sparingly. So I'm interested to hear what you folks think. Do you hack or are you hack free? If you hack, what methods do you use, why do you use that method, and more importantly, why do you need it in the first place? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Fixed vs flexible layouts
Patrick Griffiths wrote: The accessibility concern with fixed (pixel) width layouts that instantly jumps to mind is that if a user with poor eyesight decides to bump up the text size, you're going to find yourself with fewer words per line. If you're not careful, such an action can lead to content being more difficult to read, especially in narrow columns. This is one of the benefits of elastic fixed (em) width layouts - you should maintain the same number of words on a line, no matter what the text size (but then, the larger it gets, the greater the likelihood of dreaded horizontal scroll bars appearing gets). That's my problem with using ems. You maintain the 'words per line' but risk horizontal scrolling. Yet the horizontal scrolling/small screen issue seems to be the main reason why the WAI advocate using relative units instead of absolute units. Oh, and then there's the accessibility problems with small-screen devices. If you were to set your content area to 600px wide, for example, some mobile browsers (I'm thinking Pocket PC Windows IE here) will apply that width and you have a scrolling nightmare on screens that will probably be much less than 600px wide. If you are embedding widths in the HTML this is definitely an issue. However if you are doing it using CSS, these devices should really use 'handheld' stylesheets instead of those intended for 'screen'. I doubt that using a flexible layout would be that much better. Take your typical 3 col layout for instance. Reduced down to a mobile phone sized screen you'd have exactly the same issue as described in your first para. i.e. The text in each col would be so squashed up as to be unreadable. The WCAG are so vague, often with a get out clause of well, if you can't really achieve that then if you vaguely do this to compensate then that's alright kind of thing. It's not that difficult to argue that something is AA for example, because the guidelines give you a lot of flexibility and are open to interpretation. This is why, personally, I don't think WAI standards badges are that useful. Good as guidelines, but not as rules. Agreed. One of the reasons I posted here was because there are a few WCAG members on the list. I'd be interested to hear their rational behind this guideline. It seems to me that whether you use fixed or flexible layouts there will always be accessibility issues at the extreme ends of screen size. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Hacks
Chris Blown wrote: Its like losing your keys. I am the sort of person who still looks for my missing keys even though I have a spare set ready to go.. I just can seem to forget about it and find them later on, I am not really happy until I've found the missing set... The hack here is the spare set of keys, the solution until I find the missing set.. But I usually can't let it go.. unless I they are well and truly lost. ;) I couldn't agree more. I think it's often the case of treating the symptoms rather than looking for the cause. If my CSS doesn't quite 'work' in a particular browser I tend to spend time finding out why and then coming up with an alternate method that will work. A lot of people seem to throw a hack at the problem in an almost knee jerk reaction. Personally I'm yet to come across a CSS issue (touch wood) that couldn't be fixed by taking a different approach. Of course this often involves changing the mark-up which some people would take issue with. One question I have, Is using a CSS selector that is not support by a certain browser, a hack? Some people think so.. Absolutely not. That's the beauty of CSS. Graceful degradation. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] After CSS?
sinz wrote: Now, it took me a while to get here, but we all got to start somewhere. But what now? How can you prepare for the next specification, new attributes and selectors, is there a test suite for CSS3?. Im a graphic designer, who's passion for web development introduced me to one of the strongest client side languages available to any developer, now that im at a point of speaking fluent CSS what do i tackle next, what new CSS3 flavours can i focus on for the next wave of innovation? Well you can find a lot of the working drafts for CSS3 here http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work Although considering how quickly (or slowly) these things take to get finished and implemented, I doubt you'll be writing CSS3 pages until you're into your late 20's. As Jeremy Keith says, The DOM is the new CSS so my advice would be to look to the DOM as your next adventure in web standards. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] About the standard Price for our website design .
What you charge depends on a whole range of factors but these are the main ones. - The local going rate - The type of clients you deal with - How good you are at what you do - Your overheads Obviously a large agency with flash premises in the Middle of London dealing with blue chip clients are going to be charging a lot more than a bedroom designer with a knock-off copy of dreamweaver building sites for the local florist. If you're a freelancer you should probably work out how much you feel you should be earning a year, adding on any overheads, estimate how many jobs you're likely to do a year and how long each job is likely to take. This should be enough to work out a basic daily rate. As a guide these may be of help http://salary.monster.co.uk/salary.monster.co.uk/view.asp http://www.nmk.co.uk/article/2003/03/25/rate-card-survey http://www.payscale.com/salary-survey/vid-97627/fid-6886 http://old.alistapart.com/stories/fee/ http://www.allfreelancework.com/articlef1013hourates.php http://www.hwg.org/resources/faqs/ratesFAQ.html http://provider.com/howtoset.htm Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] A California meeting? was Brisbane July Meeting - Report
Krassy wrote: San Diego, CA here...2 hours south of Marina Del Rey. Blimey, you must drive fast. I spent 2 days driving between San Diego and LA. Sure I did stop off on the way, but even so, 2 hours! Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] A California meeting? was Brisbane July Meeting - Report
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe I'm missing the joke but yahoo maps shows SD to LA at around 125 miles. Push your ride to 70 mph and it's two hours max, excepting traffic. Sorry if I missed the joke. :-) No Joke. I just honestly thought SD was further away that that. I guess I was probably taking the scenic route and keeping within the 55mph speed limit as well, which would explain why it took me so long. Anyway, sorry for the OT banter. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Sportwear/fashion sites using web standards
Hi Folks, I was just wondering if anybody can point me in the direction of a sportswear or fashion site using web standards? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] OZEWAI 2004 (Australian Web Accessibility Initiative)
Geoff Deering wrote: I'd just like to plug OZEWAI 2004 (http://www.ozewai.org/2004/). It would be great if people from the Web Standards Group could bring their experience and expertise to this conference. It's an annual event. I think one big problem people associate with accessibility is dull, circa 1990 style sites. This used to also be the case with web standards but sites like the zen garden have helped clear up that myth. To really promote accessibility (to web design firms and clients anyway) I think we should try and let people know that accessibility doesn't have to be dull and boring. Take the ozewai.org site. It's a great idea and I hope the conference is a big hit. However looking at it, it's really not dispelling any myths about accessibility. I personally don't have much time at the moment but would be happy to donate an old design/stylesheet that I'm not using to you guys. http://www.andybudd.com/wired_sussex/ It's by no means perfect (I'm aware of at least one glitch), but may help jazz up the site a little. Alternatively somebody out there may have some spare time on their hands and be willing to help you out with a new design. Maybe as a portfolio piece? Andy Budd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] FW: What do you consider to be the minimum Accessibility level to cover legal requirements?
Mike Foskett wrote: I'm about to rewrite the technical standards for the acceptance of external, and independent, web resources. At present they are only guidelines and they suggest: . Compliance to WAI priority one (plus a little). . W3C validated coding with allowable exceptions. E.g. Flash / Framesets. I know it's a little vague, but I'd say something like Must reach a minimum of WAI priority 1 checkpoints and aim to comply with all priority 2 checkpoints. Sites should be developed using web standards and aim to validate to a correct doctype. Exceptions will be given in rare circumstances such as dealing with legacy, non standards complaint content management systems. OK, it's not great, but better than writing your own set of criteria. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Styling Text... (Andy Budd Accessibility Quiz)
Geoff Deering wrote: That is a very very poor quiz, and shows the author does not understand WCAG1 very well at all. Actually, it shows more that he does not know how to form the proper questions. The quality of the questions and quiz aside, why do you think the author doesn't understand WCAG!? My impression was the opposite. Hi Geoff, How sweet. Obviously it was just meant to be a bit of fun, but I guess you always get one or two party poopers. I'm planning to post up my answers later this evening, so please feel free to come by my site and rip them/me apart in person. Andy Budd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Quick Accessibility Quiz
I've just posted up a quick accessibility quiz on my site. http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2004/07/ quick_accessibility_quiz_now_with_prizes/ The first 3 people with the correct answers and reasoning (as judged by me) will win a free GMail account (assuming I can remember my password). Enjoy Andy Budd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Recommended Books
James Ellis wrote: First taxi off the rank is Andy Budd's book listing at http://webstandardsgroup.org/resources/#cat31 - Andy, feel free to update the listing. Cheers James. I probably should add some of my articles as well, shouldn't I? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] OT - Standards Compliant Websites Directory
A directory is a good idea, however there are quite a few sites doing similar things these days. Somebody could write a bot that validates as it crawls. Then you could have a standards compliant SE. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Accessability testing
I think there is a problem inherent in using these tools. HTML validators work because they check a document against a 'machine readable' set of grammars. Accessibility tools can't do this. What they do is look at a site based on a set of guidelines. However these guidelines are open to interpretation. Thus all tools like Bobby can do is help you spot obvious mistakes, they can't actually 'validate' your site. Problems occur when clients/developers mistake the tools for the actual guidelines/checklists. A site should try to conform to a priority level, not an accessibility tool. I've seen a number of instances where 'Bobby' thinks a site doesn't comply, but from reading the guidelines I disagree. The point isn't to naively follow a set of rules. The point is to make your site more accessible too people. If your site complies to all the priority 3 guidelines but fails to comply one priority 2 guidelines, does this make the site less accessible than one that comply to all priority 2 guidelines, but no priority 3? I think the clue really is in the language. These things are guidelines, not absolutes. James Cowperthwaite wrote: Hi - does anyone still use Bobby these days? I ask because we really have only used: Cynthia Says - Web Content Accessibility Report (http://www.contentquality.com/) On a site we are developing we pass all Checklist items up to and including Priority 3 Verification with Cynthia, however our client is testing using Bobby and Usablenet, stating these are the 'industry standard'. Is this the case? If not could anyone hit me with a nice list objective comparison? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] New mobile standards body
Interesting Idea, but isn't this something the web standards project is/should be doing? Kyle Barrow wrote: OMTP is a new standards body attempting to promote open standards amongst mobile manufacturers. With the messy state of Web standards compliance on mobiles, an organisation like this is long overdue although I noticed NTT DoCoMo is a member which is rather like inviting Hannibal Lector for vegetarian. Their Web site (http://www.omtp.org/) was up earlier today but appears to have been replaced with the ubiquitous hello world message; somewhat embarrassing for an organisation with 100,000 Euro membership fees. Kyle Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Mac testers please
Very slick. Nice Marc Greenstock wrote: Hi all, I was wondering if anyone could be so kind as to test my site using IE for Mac 5+ and Safari http://www.v2.shockmedia.com.au Thanks. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Recommended Books
Here are my book recommendations. http://www.andybudd.com/books/ Jamie Mason wrote: Hey all, The Head of Design here is ordering in some books soon for the designer's reference, I was wondering whether anyone has any recommended books on; CSS Designing for Web Standards Accessibility Usability HCI (A study on how people interact with computers) And ideally, some kind of book on advice on implementing the above across a very large business involving teams seperate design, development and editorial teams. Andy Budd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Quick accessibility question
Richard Rutter wrote: If you want something doing... A script which uses the DOM to automatically underline the letter of a link text which matches its accesskey: http://clagnut.com/sandbox/dynamic-accesskeys/ Any use? In some ways this could be using JavaScript to increase accessibility, or least stop mark-up getting in the way. Smartass I hope you're gonna use that for your SkillSwap :-) Andy Budd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Quick accessibility question
Here's a quick (and probably stupid) accessibility question regarding screen readers. labelspanS/spanearch/label I assume the a screen reader will read this out as Search and not S earch. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] re: using wildcard * in css
Sorry to dash your hopes, but that's just the Universal Selector
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/selector.html#universal-selector
Neerav wrote:
I was trying to think of a way to set the same margin for all elements
inside my content div at http://www.algae.info/ and decided to try
.content *
{
margin-left: 15px;
}
Just for the heck of it. To my surprise, this worked in Firefox 0.8,
IE6, and Opera 7.23
So have I accidentally stumbled on a perfectly valid use of css, or am
I exploiting some bug? Will the margin display properly
cross-browsers/platforms ?
Andy Budd
http://www.message.uk.com/
*
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
*
[WSG] SkillSwap
The next SkillSwap is running this monday. For more info, see www.skillswap.org Andy * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] SkillSwap
Oops, Sorry folks. Somehow I managed to send this to the wrong mailing list :-( Don't I feel like a prat! Andy Budd wrote: The next SkillSwap is running this monday. For more info, see www.skillswap.org Andy Budd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] SkillSwap
Well if somebody wants to pay for my airfare over, I'd be more than happy to run a few sessions :-) If somebody in NZ or OZ want's to give me a well paid job, even better. Loverly part of the world. Alternatively you may be to open up a NZ branch of the WSG and then you could run your own events. t94xr.net.nz webmaster wrote: can you get it in New Zealand? Camz Andy Budd * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Ten Questions for whomever
Oi, I heard that. :-p Hill, Tim wrote: Yeah who's that Andy Budd guy anyway? *duck* Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Should web standards cost more?
Mordechai Peller wrote: However, since development time is less, the cost to the client will be less. You say that as though the time savings are an undeniable fact. In my experience using CSS increases the initial template build and testing time but decreases the time taken to develop individual pages. As such, the time savings only really start to manifest themselves on medium to large scale jobs. For small scale jobs, it can actually take longer and thus be more costly. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Tables are bad because...
John Allsopp wrote: Andy, Hi John, I wasn't actually going too respond to your comments but considering your latest email, I thought it was probably a good idea. I actually wrote about half a dozen different replies to the article and posted none of them, other than my snarky comment on your blog, for which I apologize. No worries. I'm a big guy and can handle criticism. I didn't publish them because they were all a little, well, heated. I usually write, I hope, with a little levity, and wit, if on occasion it can be quite dry. I just couldn't in this case. Again, no worries. Like I said in the preface to my article, one of the reasons for publishing it was to play devils advocate. In all honesty I was expecting a much bigger and more heated backlash than the article actually got. As such I was fully prepared for a certain amount of negative criticism. I see where you are coming from, but really, I think it is up to those who honestly want to advocate for a non standards based approach to do so for themselves. Funnily, they usually end up looking like David Emberton's article. Another reason for publishing the article was to provide a more balanced view of the situation. My fear is that, without open and reasonable discussion about the realities of web standards development, people will start to believe the reactionary views of people like David Emberton. I'd prefer somebody who's struggling with CSS to read my article and think that it's OK to use the odd table in a transitional layout, rather than read David's article and decide that CSS layout just doesn't work! Judging by the comments to your post, you'll see that a lot of people want to use tables, largely because that is what they know and do now. They simply don't want to accept the arguments in favor of a standards based web. That's fine by me, they are quite entitled to do so. I don't think they are very wise, but while I evangelize web standards, I don't insist on people using them. But unfortunately an article like yours is not read by them in the spirit in which you intended, it is read as a vindication of their position. See, Andy Budd agrees with me. Funny but I've just re-read the comments and I don't get that feeling at all. The general response seems to be that people are happy using CSS for most layout situations but will not discount simple, non nested tables if appropriate. I think if people do drop CSS layout and say See, Andy Budd agrees with me, then they have completely misunderstood the point of the article. I believe the concepts in the article are well written and logical, and that the purpose and conclusions are clear. It's true that I should have been a bit more specific by stating that I was only talking about CSS for positioning, but most people seem to have realise that. So rather than seeing something like at times, it may be necessary to use a non standards based approach to achieve an outcome within certain constraints, and that is ok they see all those standards zealots really don't know about the real world so everything they say can safely be ignored. From my experience, people can be really intimidated by CSS and labour under the belief that it's all or nothing. This isn't helped by the attitudes of some standards practitioners who's strict views on coding can really put people off using CSS for layout. People respond much better to an even handed approach, than a prescriptive one. Then Dave Shea, and Nick Bradbury and others weigh in nominally agreeing, making it all like its all so reasonable and realistic and essentially you reinforce the context of the discussion about web standards. Well I wouldn't say that they weighed in as this give the impression that their comments were rather heavy handed. Their comments seemed reasonable and held weight because they came from experienced web developers who have experienced some of the things I was talking about. And what was that context? Bluntly, using the words of the article, that people who advocate standards are zealots purists, live in Ivory towers (and so by implication, not the real world). They demonize tables, and so by implication the users of of tables, and they have a sense of superiority about their approach. This is the bit that made me sigh. This isn't objective, its only a slightly more subtle version of David Emberton's nonsense. I think most people would agree that there are *some* individuals who have a very purist and prescriptive approach to standards. There is also a lot of theoretical discussion about web standards going on at the moment. For people within the community, I'm sure all this all feels reasonable. We know that we are partaking in a theoretical discussion and that in reality, things are less black and white. However, if you are outside the community, this kind of attitude can feel extremely intimidating. I also think there are a number of web standards practitioners
Re: [WSG] APC magazine anti standards article
Hey John, As you may have guessed, my post was partly in response to the awful article in APC mag. http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2004/04/ inciting_the_bile_of_the_web_standards_community/ I really didn't want it to become the definitive anti CSS article so thought a more level headed look at the table vs CSS debate was required. Andy Budd John Allsopp wrote: Thanks Kay and Hugh I am currently trying to pen a reasonable reply to Andy Budd's post this morning http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2004/05/ an_objective_look_at_table_based_vs_css_based_design/ sigh john http://www.apcmag.com/apc/v3.nsf/0/A569C81864DC4F1BCA256E5F001A59C5 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign
;-) I have to admit that I don't get time to post that often so it's not surprising you didn't know I was on the roster. Nick Lo wrote: Ha funny, I've been pointing to... http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2004/05/13/gasp_tables/index.php ...which was pointing to your weblog and here you are on the list anyway! Next time I should just check the roster and leave you to respond to the Tables are bad because... posts! Nick Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] XML declarations, apos; and IE
This is probably a dumb question, but am I right in assuming that IE will only correctly display an apos; character entity if the XHTML file has an XML declaration? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] XML declarations, apos; and IE
Patrick Griffiths wrote: Doesn't appear to, which is a bit odd. #39; is fine though. Thanks dog I've always wanted to say that :-) Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] When the mix of visual appearance and meaning goes really bad
Manuel González Noriega wrote: Well it's pretty tricky picking between two wrongs but i'd say wrong named classes are much less serious than wrongfully marked elements. Why is marking something up as italic wrong though? It may go against your belief of separating content from display, but it's a valid (x)html element isn't it? Seems like using i or span class=italic are pretty much the same. In fact you could argue that using li is better because it's a standard html element (rather than a user defined class) and will thus be understood by more systems. Are you saying that we are all guilty of laziness once or twice in a while and that we don't follow good practices all of the time? Boy, i'm glad i'm not the only one ;) Still, i don't think that's quite the same than writing a post about using an element in a way that's not the way it should be used. I'd still argue that the purpose of the i element is to make something italic, so that's exactly how it should be used (not saying that's the only way to make something italicw). Using it to make something bold however would be a shooting offence. Personally, i do it because i was told me girls dig semantic coding. You mean they don't? Some do. However some like it the old fashioned way. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority
Sorry mate (and the WSG). I was merely giving you my reaction to your post. I was just saying that If I was in the shoes of the person you emailed, my first reaction would be to go and visit your site. On visiting said site I'd think, what a loverly looking flash portfolio with lot's of nice sites. However it doesn't really reflect the type of site I want or the theme of your email. I think with any marketing message your website needs to back up you're main proposition, or you are in risk of loosing the prospect at the last hurdle. Universal Head wrote: Jeez mate give me a break. Just because every site I've done doesn't get the little W3C gold star doesn't mean I'm not making professional sites. And since I've been making sites since the web started, and designing for years before that, some jobs go back ten years. They were cutting edge enough at the time. Like every job I do, if I was commissioned to do the ACA site, I would make sure that I designed and made, or had made, a site that was appropriate for the client, their audience, and what they were trying to communicate. I might even make it viewable for Mac users, for example ... There's a world of difference between a site for the ACA and a graphic design portfolio. If my showcase site was designed in the same way as an ACA site I would not be communicating to my audience much about my visual skills, especially since I have done and do everything from computer game 3D to corporate ID as well as websites. For example, I also do Flash work. You might just as well complain that the client who wants me to do Flash work could go to my site, find a static xhtml/css site and would therefore conclude I don't practice what I preach. Or the computer game client finds solid flat colours and concludes I don't do 3D. Etcetera. Personally, while I'm on this list and now largely make web standards sites with xhtml and css, I still believe there's a place for Flash, and at the moment, my portfolio is one of those places. As for the nav, when it says 'select an icon', try rolling over an icon. It won't kill you, and you'll only lose a second or two from your day. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] International meetings
Peter Firminger wrote: In the members section of the WSG site, you can see how many people are in your area at the bottom of the members homepage ( http://webstandardsgroup.org/manage/login_view.cfm ). Cool, there are two other people from Brighton on this list. waves type=hello / Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] RE: You have subscribed to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Nancy Johnson wrote: I have always been interested in Web Standards, and have a special interest in web accessibility. Living in Massachusetts USA, means that I probably will never attend a meeting. Have you ever considered having your meetings online somehow. I realize time may also be a factor, just a thought. If you've got web access where you do the meeting, I guess it would be possibly to set up a streaming server and stream the meetings. With SkillSwap I've even wondered about setting up an informal group iChatAV. Don't know if it'd work though. On the subject of international groups, I wonder if anybody has thought about integrating the WSG with http://webstandards.meetup.com/ ? Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Web Essentials 04
Just wanted to say how cool the Web Essentials 04 conference looks. http://we04.com/ It's defiantly something I'd love to attend. Shame it's on the other side of the world. I assume all the aussie developers on the list are planning to be there. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
