Re: [WSG] Up-to-date resources for mobile front-end dev

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Tom,

Please have a look at these:

This the latest article:
http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/opera-mobile-10-developers-introduction/

This is the lead-in page for the rest of the mobile development articles:
http://dev.opera.com/articles/mobile/

Hope this helps,

Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer, Core Technologies
Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/



On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Tom Livingston  wrote:

> List,
>
> Does anyone have any good Up-to-date resources for mobile front-end dev?
>
> --
>
> Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
> ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] css tutorial

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Marvin.

Also, please try our Opera Web Standards Curriculum section 27 entitled "CSS
basics", written and contributed by Christian Heilmann.

Here is the hyperlink to it:
http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/27-css-basics/

Hope this helps you out a bit,

Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer
Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/



On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 12:56 AM, Marvin Hunkin wrote:

> hi.
> well a member of blind geeks.
> and asked to write a short basic tutorial on css.
> did learn css in my web design course in 2007.
> and di use it a bit to tweek a web project recently.
> but my question is:
> what resources and what links to some tutorials to get a handle on how to
> write a short css tutorial.
> and how to write one.
> and what do i need to put in it.
> just asking.
> i do know css, but a bit rusty.
> and totally blind.
> so the biggest problem, where things are located on screen.
> so any one got any ideas where to start and how to write a tutorial for
> this
> technical group.
> Marvin.
>
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] Deprecated "start" for lists confirmation

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Kevin,

If you wish to write HTML5, the start attribute has been rescued from its
deprecated state and may be used when needed. Here is the HTML5 working
draft describing it: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#attr-ol-start

Validating HTML5:

W3C: http://qa-dev.w3.org/wmvs/HEAD/#validate_by_upload+with_options
Under "Document type" select "HTML5" (I'm not sure how good this one is
yet.)

Validator.nu (by Henri Sivonen): http://html5.validator.nu/ (This one has
been in use for a while.)

Hope that helps,

Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer, Documentation and Localization
Core Technologies and Consumer Engineering
Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
Mobile: (+47) 95 17 61 11
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/



On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Erickson, Kevin (DOE) <
kevin.erick...@doe.virginia.gov> wrote:

>  Thanks for the responses so far! Does this mean that today's standard is
> to not break a list apart ever???
>
>  --
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Chabot, Elliot
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:54 AM
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* RE: [WSG] Deprecated "start" for lists confirmation
>
> The “start” attribute for lists was deprecated by § 10.2 of the HTML 4.01 
> specification
> - *
> http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/struct/lists.html#adef-start
> *
> .
>
>  Elliot
>
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org 
> [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ]* On Behalf Of* Erickson, Kevin (DOE)
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2009 10:17 AM
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* [WSG] Deprecated "start" for lists confirmation
>
> Hello,
>
> Is the "start" attribute truly deprecated for a list? Is there a better way
> to do this?
>
> i.e. -
>
> 
>
> info
>
> info
>
> 
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
> 
>
> info>
>
> 
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Kevin
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] Ordered list start value

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi T. R.,

Unless you are writing HTML5, @start is deprecated and will not vaildate. To
solve this, please have a look at David Storey's article:

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/automatic-numbering-with-css-counters/

Hope this helps,

Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer, Opera Software
Documentation & Localization
Core Engineering & Consumer Products
Mobile: (+47) 95 17 61 11
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/



On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 3:02 PM, T. R. Valentine wrote:

> What is the proper way to start an ordered list at a value other than
> '1' in XHTML?
> I had
>   
> flagged because 'there is no attribute "start"'
>
> TIA
>
> --
> T. R. Valentine
> Your friends will argue with you. Your enemies don't care.
> 'When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food
> and clothes.' -- Erasmus
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] The 'Some Links for Light Reading' posts

[Frank Palinkas]

Indeed. Spot on Captain!

Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer, Opera Software
Documentation & Localization
Core Engineering & Consumer Products
Mobile: (+47) 95 17 61 11
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/



On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:52 AM,  wrote:

>
>  me too! fabulous stuff
>
> Lisa Kerrigan | Manager Content & User Experience
> www.business.vic.gov.au; www.diird.vic.gov.au
> ' +61 3 9651 9176 8 lisa.kerri...@diird.vic.gov.au
> Department of Innovation, Industry and Regional Development
> Level 31, 121 Exhibition Street, Melbourne, Victoria 3000.
>
>
>
> "Chris F.A.
> Johnson"
>  .com> wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Sent by:   cc
> li...@webstandard
> sgroup.orgSubject
>   Re: [WSG] The 'Some Links for Light
>   Reading' posts
> 23/09/2009 03:15
> PM
>
>
> Please respond to
> w...@webstandardsg
> roup.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 23 Sep 2009, nedlud wrote:
>
> > I second that.
>
>   On the other hand, after looking at a few of the links the first
>   few times I received those messages, I now delete them unseen.
>
> > On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Susie Gardner-Brown
> wrote:
> >
> > >  Hi there
> > >
> > > I?d just like to send a big thank you to Russ Weakley for taking the
> time
> > > to collate and send this to WSG Announce each week! I always find
> really
> > > interesting stuff there, and usually bookmark a couple of links from
> it.
> > >
> > > So, thanks Russ ? it?s really appreciated!
>
> --
>   Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster 
>   ===
>   Author:
>   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>
>
>
>
>
> *
> Department of Innovation, Industry and Regional Development,Government of
> Victoria, Victoria, Australia.
> This e-mail and any attachments may contain privileged and confidential
> information.   If you are not the intended recipient, you may not distribute
> reproduce this e-mail  the attachments.   If you have received this message
> in error, please notify us by return e-mail.
>
> *-
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] Website Creation Documentation Standards

[Frank Palinkas]

Apologies Lorrie,

I'm not sure this will help, but I try to include a "Design Notes" page at
the end of a tutorial. This supplies some "metadata" about the construction
of the web docs (structure, presentation, and behavior layers) which make up
the tutorial. Users are free to use it whatever way they wish.

Here's an example: http://frank.helpware.net/cshelp/DesignNotes.htm


Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer, Opera Software
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/



On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Lorrie Laskey wrote:

> Frank,
>
> The content of your message did not show up, only your  closing and
> signature.
>
> Lorrie
>
> ****
>
> Frank Palinkas wrote:
>
>>
>> Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,
>>
>> Frank M. Palinkas
>> Technical Writer, Opera Software
>> http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Lorrie Laskey > lrmal...@bellsouth.net>> wrote:
>>
>>List,
>>
>>I am a web designer as a hobby and have run into a situation where
>>I am not sure where to search. Does a standard exist for the
>>creation of web site creation documentation? By this I mean
>>documentation that would/might be turned over to the end user:
>>
>> 1. to allow the end user to mange the site himself
>> 2. to document the project and for future reference
>>
>>Having created a few sites I have been trying on my own to
>>determine what information should be documented and in what format
>>and by what specs. I hope this makes sense. If they do exist,
>>would someone point me to them and some examples as well as any
>>software, open source if possible, that exists. If not, are there
>>any industry general practices that I can read?
>>
>>One last question, if such standard exist are they working with
>>the W3C community and where might that info be, please?
>>
>>Lorrie
>>
>>
>>***
>>List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>>Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>>Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
>><mailto:memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org>
>>***
>>
>>
>>
>> ***
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
>> ***
>>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] Website Creation Documentation Standards

[Frank Palinkas]

Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer, Opera Software
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/



On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Lorrie Laskey wrote:

> List,
>
> I am a web designer as a hobby and have run into a situation where I am not
> sure where to search. Does a standard exist for the creation of web site
> creation documentation? By this I mean documentation that would/might be
> turned over to the end user:
>
>  1. to allow the end user to mange the site himself
>  2. to document the project and for future reference
>
> Having created a few sites I have been trying on my own to determine what
> information should be documented and in what format and by what specs. I
> hope this makes sense. If they do exist, would someone point me to them and
> some examples as well as any software, open source if possible, that exists.
> If not, are there any industry general practices that I can read?
>
> One last question, if such standard exist are they working with the W3C
> community and where might that info be, please?
>
> Lorrie
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] Website Creation Documentation Standards

[Frank Palinkas]

Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer, Opera Software
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/



On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Lorrie Laskey wrote:

> List,
>
> I am a web designer as a hobby and have run into a situation where I am not
> sure where to search. Does a standard exist for the creation of web site
> creation documentation? By this I mean documentation that would/might be
> turned over to the end user:
>
>  1. to allow the end user to mange the site himself
>  2. to document the project and for future reference
>
> Having created a few sites I have been trying on my own to determine what
> information should be documented and in what format and by what specs. I
> hope this makes sense. If they do exist, would someone point me to them and
> some examples as well as any software, open source if possible, that exists.
> If not, are there any industry general practices that I can read?
>
> One last question, if such standard exist are they working with the W3C
> community and where might that info be, please?
>
> Lorrie
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] website for handheld devices

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Naveen,

Please take a look at the following Dev Opera articles on mobile web
development:

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/designing-and-developing-mobile-web-site/

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/designing-and-developing-mobile-web-site-1/

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mobile-markup-xhtml-basic-1-1/

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/opera-mobile-9-5-the-developer-angle/

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/evolving-the-internet-on-your-phone-des/

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/designing-with-opera-mini-in-mind/

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mobile-style-css-mobile-profile-2-0/

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/web-design-with-opera-mobile-in-mind/

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/how-to-serve-the-right-content-to-mobile/

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/free-mobile-web-design-chapter-to-downlo/

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/making-small-devices-look-great/


Hope this helps,
Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer, Opera Software
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/



On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 5:47 AM, Naveen Bhaskar wrote:

>
>  Hi,
> i want my project to be worked on handheld devices also. what are the
> things I should keep inmind and how do I test it? Cananybody tell me how to
> do it.
> thanks a ton in advance
> --
>
> thanks and regards
>
> Naveen Bhaskar
>
>
> --
> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them 
> now.
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] Accessible popup help

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Clare,

Please see if this, or any part of it will be of help:

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/accessible-context-sensitive-help-with-u/

There are two formats described with working examples and code samples.

Hope this may be of help.
Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer, Opera Software
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/



On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 1:21 PM,  wrote:

>  Hi there,
>
> We have hidden divs (popup help) on a page that are shown either by onClick
> or onMouseOver. When the div is shown, Jaws will not read the contents, any
> ideas on how to get it to work without users having to disable JS?
>
> Also does anyone have any good examples of pop up help?
>
> Thanks
>
>
> -
> Bank of Scotland plc, Registered in Scotland Number SC327000 Registered 
> office: The Mound, Edinburgh EH1 1YZ. Authorised and regulated by Financial 
> Services Authority.
>
> ==
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] IE and the element

[Frank Palinkas]

Indeed, and that's where the problem lies. I don't believe that using
 (which must be placed within a ) purely for _hyperlink_
purposes is good practice or semantically correct. My apologies, I may have
gotten a bit ahead of myself.

Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer, Opera Software
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/



On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 3:10 PM,  wrote:

>  Surely the button element is REQUIRED to be enclosed in a  ??
>
> Mike
>
>  --
> *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Frank Palinkas
> *Sent:* 23 February 2009 12:56
> *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> *Subject:* Re: [WSG] IE and the  element
>
> IMHO, not very semantic in nature. We need the button element to be able to
> carry a valid link-type attribute. Enclosing it in a form just don't cut it.
> It must be able to stand by itself as an alternative means to activate a
> hyperlink, as another aspect of its functionality.
> Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,
>
> Frank M. Palinkas
> Technical Writer, Opera Software
> http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] IE and the element

[Frank Palinkas]

IMHO, not very semantic in nature. We need the button element to be able to
carry a valid link-type attribute. Enclosing it in a form just don't cut it.
It must be able to stand by itself as an alternative means to activate a
hyperlink, as another aspect of its functionality.
Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer, Opera Software
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/



On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Nick Cowie  wrote:

> Rob wrote:
> >Buttons were mainly designed as triggers for javascript behaviour,
>
> I disagree, if you look at the original HTML 4 material, you will see
> that the button element promoted as an improved input element.
>
> Why not
>  type="submit">foo
> --
> Nick Cowie
> http://nickcowie.com
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

[WSG] Announcement: Molly Holzschlag joins Opera Software

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi All,

For your guide, Molly Holzschlag, a well-known Web standards advocate,
instructor, and author has joined the Opera Software team. Please refer to
Molly's blog for her own thoughts on this at:
http://www.molly.com/2009/02/13/i-am-an-opera-singer/
Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer, Opera Software
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

[WSG] Validating (X)HTML + ARIA

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi All,

If you haven't seen this yet, it may be of practical use when and if needed:


Validating (X)HTML + ARIA: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=107

Written by Steve Faulkner, Technical Director - TPG (The Paciello Group)
Europe, Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium from his blog.


Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer, Opera Software
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/
http://frank.helpware.net


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] HELP: Need a bug fixed in Firefox to support development of open source accessibility testing tools

[Frank Palinkas]

My vote cast with pleasure, Jon!

Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer, Opera Software
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/
http://frank.helpware.net



On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 8:37 PM, Jon Gunderson  wrote:

> There is a feature needed in Firefox to find out which DOM nodes have
> user interface event handlers.
>
> This would allow Firefox Accessibility Extensions and tools like
> Firebug to test for features needed by people with disabilities to
> make dynamic web applications more accessible.
>
> For example, nodes with mouse event handlers also need keyboard event
> handlers associated with them to help keyboard only users access the
> dynamic web content.
>
> There is already a 6 month old bug in bugzilla on the issue, but it
> has not been assigned" to be fixed: "Bug 448602 - Have a way to
> enumerate event listeners"
>
> URL to bugzilla:
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/
>
> If you have a bugzilla account you can add your vote to increase the
> priority of the bug being fixed:
>
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/votes.cgi?action=show_bug&bug_id=448602
>
> If you don't have an account, please create one and vote for this bug.
>  The more votes the more likely someone will be assigned to fix it.
>
> Thank you for your help and happy holidays,
> Jon
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] HTML/XHTML/XML - Question about the future of.

[Frank Palinkas]

To follow up on Micky, Christian and Rimantas, here's the latest info on
HTML 5:

HTML 5 Draft Recommendation — 20 November 2008:
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/

The Web Developer's Guide to HTML 5 - W3C Editor's Draft 19 November 2008
(written by my colleague, Lachlan Hunt):
http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-author/

Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Technical Writer
Opera Software
http://www.opera.com/
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/
http://frank.helpware.net



On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 6:36 AM, Rimantas Liubertas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> > I made the same decision. I still follow HTML and XHTML, but anything I
> do
> > (and have a choice about) is always HTML 4.01 Strict. I think it makes
> more
> > sense than XHTML 1.0 Strict at this point since we can't really use
> "real"
> > XHTML yet. It seems to defeat the purpose if you are using a Strict DTD
> > incorrectly.
>
> Same here and looking forward to start using HTML5, at least for the
> personal projects first.
>
> Regards,
> Rimantas
> --
> http://rimantas.com/
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Dev. For Mobile Browsers

[Frank Palinkas]

James, please take a look here:

http://dev.opera.com/articles/mobile/

This is a collecton of developer articles on mobile technology at the
dev.opera.com.

Kind regards,
Frank M. Palinkas
QA Documentation/Technical Writer
Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
http://www.opera.com/
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/
http://frank.helpware.net



On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 4:13 AM, James Jeffery <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Anyone got any good resources on developing for mobile browsers? It's an
> area I have never really looked into, but am interested in.
>
> Cheers.
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Mobile graded browser support

[Frank Palinkas]

If I may add to David's info, please check these sixteen mobile web
articles/tutorials on dev.opera.com. They may be of help:

http://dev.opera.com/articles/mobile/
Frank M. Palinkas
QA Documentation/Technical Writer
Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway
http://www.opera.com/
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/
http://frank.helpware.net


On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 6:41 PM, David Storey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> As a slight update to this discussion, Opera has just had a timely release
> of our Mobile Browser Report [1].
> A short digest:  9 out of the 10 top handsets in the US are Blackberry,
> with 4 out of 10 in the UK.  The only other country that featured a
> Blackberry device was Germany with 2 out of 10.
>
> Globally, apart from the US and UK, Nokia dominates along with Sony
> Ericsson.  Samsung is strong is South Africa.
>
> Motorola are conspicuous by their absence (they only feature once in the
> top ten model list for the top 10 countries where Opera Mini is the most
> popular).  Palm is now also absent.  They used to be strong in the UK and
> US, and possibly still are with business users (I see them a lot at
> conferences still), but the lack of a JVM by default hampers the install
> rate of Java based browsers.
>
> In June Opera Mini had 14.5 million unique users (Summer months are
> typically quiet due to summer holidays), and 3.2 billion web pages.
>
> The list of phones should give you a good idea of what kind of phones to
> test on and design for, as millions of users are represented by these
> models.
>
> Japan is a popular mobile market, but Opera doesn't supply Opera Mini
> there, so there is no data.  We only distribute Opera Mobile (our biggest
> partner KDDI - second biggest operator in Japan - calls this PC Site Viewer)
> in Japan due to the proliferation of high end handsets and fast data rates.
>
>
> [1] http://www.opera.com/mobile_report/2008/06/
>
> On 21 Jul 2008, at 16:53, Ted Drake wrote:
>
> FYI:
>
> David Storey is one of the lead engineers of Opera Browser. It's a rare
> honor to have a browser architect reflect on the industry in mailing lists.
> Do you see similar responses from Firefox, Safari, or IE architects?
>
> So, keep his suggestions in mind, he knows what he's talking about. I just
> wanted to make sure people realized the relevance of his comments. You may
> want to go back and restore any of his messages that were deleted and save
> them for future use.
>
> Ted
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>
> David Storey
>
> Chief Web Opener,
> Product Manager Opera Dragonfly,
> Consumer Product Manager Opera Core,
> Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group member
>
> Consumer Product Management & Developer Relations
> Opera Software ASA
> Oslo, Norway
>
> Mobile: +47 94 22 02 32
> E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Blog: http://my.opera.com/dstorey
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Opera opacity bug

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Tee,

As James mentioned, what is the Bug Report number (#) you were issued with?
I'll follow up here for you.

Kind regards,
Frank

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:58 PM, tee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I posted a message about Opera bug last december and filed a bug report.
> Recently I discovered the bug also affecting js slideshow that I used for a
> client's site. So I tracked back the site I did last year, sure enough, the
> bug was not fixed in Opera 9.5
>
> Have any of you encountered this bug in with your web projects?
>
> I googled the Opera Opacity bug, saw a few articles about it and some
> reported it was fixed. It never! I remember there is an Opera developer in
> this list, so I am positing this message here as I don't want to create an
> Opera account in their forum.
>
> tee
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Book ideas for updating skills to modern html xhtml standards

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Michael,

Although not in book format, Opera Software has released "The Web Standards
Curriculum" which can be found at:

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/1-introduction-to-the-web-standards-cur/

This may be of reference and help.

Kind regards,
Frank M. Palinkas
Opera Software
http://www.opera.com/
http://frank.helpware.net
http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 12:59 AM, Michael Horowitz <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Is there a good book (something like Oreilly's nutsshell series) that works
> as a good desk reference for (x)html standards people recommend?
>
> Michael Horowitz
> Your Computer Consultant
> http://yourcomputerconsultant.com
> 561-394-9079
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Mobile phone support of CSS

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Paul,

There are fifteen articles here on designing, etc. for Opera Mobile and
Opera Mini.

http://dev.opera.com/articles/mobile/

Hope this may be of help.

Kind regards,

Frank Palinkas
Opera Software

On 6/24/08, Paul Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm trying to find a comprehensive list of Mobile phone browsers and
> CSS support. I currently have a Nokia N70 and as far as I can see it
> doesn't support CSS at all. But, perhaps with a stylesheet targeting
> mobile phones it would?!
>
> The main reason is, I am trying to decide whether putting the main
> logo of a site in as an inline image is better than a background, as
> it would still show up with CSS not supported. But then, how many
> mobile browsers still don't support CSS whatsoever?!
>
> Any advice or links would be great.
> Cheers
> Paul
>
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Form best practice

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Jens-Uwe,

Apologies for the late reply - I'm in the middle of an inter-continental
move from Johannesburg to Oslo.

If I can help, please take a look at my article on dev.opera.com -
"Accessible Context Sensitive Help with Unobtrusive DOM Scripting":

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/accessible-context-sensitive-help-with-u/

This gives you my configuration of the HTML structure for a web form, along
with the JavaScript needed to reveal the embedded context sensitive help for
each form field. Also, you can download a complete project package,
including HTML, CSS, images, scripts, etc., from my blog site:
http://frank.helpware.net

Also, in the body of the article, you'll see a hyperlink to Gez Lemon's
website (Juicy Studio) where another type of form layout and embedded help
is detailed.

Hope this helps,

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Opera Software

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 5:36 AM, Jens-Uwe Korff <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> we are currently evaluating how we code up forms. In the process I'd
> like to review form best practices.
>
> I guess you've come across a good form with respect to either design,
> functionality, semantics or interaction.
>
> Please send me any bookmarks you might have of what you consider top of
> class.
>
> Thank you for your help!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jens
>
> The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying
> files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any
> use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail
> or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright.
> No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the
> written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in
> error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and
> delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness
> of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet
> communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal
> responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files.
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


-- 
Frank M. Palinkas


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Dreamweaver CS3

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi James,

It may also be worth looking at Microsoft's Visual Studio 2008 Web Designer
Express Edition - it's completely free (It has nothing to do with the
Expression series of tools). It has IDE Source Code Editors for (X)HTML,
XML, CSS, and JavaScript, etc. You can also download the limited MSDN
Library that accompanies it, also free of charge. There is no proprietary
code injection, and you can set a markup specification for cursory
validation as you write.

http://www.microsoft.com/express/vwd/

Apologies if considered off-topic.

Kind regards,

Frank

On Fri, Apr 4, 2008 at 1:19 PM, James Jeffery <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I've been thinking about buying the new version of Photoshop and
> Illustrator, as i just purchased a new dual core iMac. Currently i use
> BBEdit but im thinking about switching to Dreamweaver as i might aswell
> purchase the creative suite. Is the new dreamweaver any good for us
> developers?
>
> This may not seem related to web standards but i feel it does because back
> when i used dreamweaver - it was the days when it bloated out your code and
> caused friction for many developers.
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***




-- 
Frank M. Palinkas


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Good News and longdesc info

[Frank Palinkas]

Thanks Kate!

One thing I failed to mention: the value of being a member of this list is 
priceless.

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kate
Sent: 02 February 2008 03:25 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Good News and longdesc info

Well done Frank!!!
Kate
Bichon Frisé
http://jungaling.com/kynismarmissmillie/index.php
Malaysia:
http://julienne.wordpress.com/



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

[WSG] Good News and longdesc info

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi folks,

After almost two months of phone interviews and written tests, late yesterday I 
received an offer from Opera, Oslo for the Technical Writer position they had 
open. I'm still in shock. Some of you know I've been trying to get out of here 
for a while, and finally the work has paid off. This tech writer position 
requires hands-on knowledge and use of (X)HTML, CSS, and DOM/JavaScript by the 
author. This suits me perfect, seeing that all my work is done in IDE editors 
for those languages. Now all I have to do is live up to their standards, and 
I'll be ok. It's truly a privilege to be joining the Opera Team.

Dwain, as part of the written exams for Opera, I was asked to devise a solution 
similar to the longdesc attribute problem you describe. I did, but 
unfortunately I'm still under an NDA regarding the Opera job application 
process. When I receive notification that I can publish this solution from 
them, I'll make sure to let you and the list know immediately. Also, I'll 
submit it to Chris Mills, editor of dev.opera.com to see if he thinks if fit 
for publication to that site.

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Behavior Effecting Presentation or Structure - Precedence?

[Frank Palinkas]

Brilliant! Thank you Chris.


Frank,

try this...

if (typeof document.removeChild != undefined) {
var div = document.getElementById("remove");
div.parentNode.removeChild(div);
} else {
document.getElementById("remove").style.display = "none";
}

if you're doing a lot of checking throughout your code though set a
global flag...

var DOM = document.getElementById ? true : false;

and then...

if (DOM) {
...
}

email me direct if you want to discuss as it's probably off topic by now.

--
Chris Knowles


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Behavior Effecting Presentation or Structure - Precedence?

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Chris,

(My apologies to the list moderators if this is getting to Behavior orientated.)

> If so, then I'm not sure there's ever really a choice. e.g. in your
> example you would need to use both methods to cover a) and b):
> a) would need you to set the style to display: none
> and b) would need you to try and remove the node

I don't know if this will satisfy the conditions you raised, but combining the 
two methods with an if else statement may make sense:

/*

function remove()
{
if (remove)
{
var div = document.getElementById("remove");
div.parentNode.removeChild(div);
}
else
{
document.getElementById("remove").style.display = "none";
}
}

*/

Kind regards,

Frank


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Behavior Effecting Presentation or Structure - Precedence?

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Kevin, and thanks. I think I've found a simpler way to handle this. Please 
see my next reply to Chris Knowles.

Kind regards,

Frank


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of kevin mcmonagle
Sent: Monday, 07 January, 2008 10:57 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Behavior Effecting Presentation or Structure - Precedence?

This is way above me but isn't that what the below method does?

http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/ufo/

if so how does he do it?
it seems to be the savy solution



hope my reply is relevant

-kevin



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Behavior Effecting Presentation or Structure - Precedence?

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the reply. As you illustrate, trying to be definitive in this 
situation seems pretty much impossible. It's appreciated.

Kind regards,

Frank


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Knowles
Sent: Monday, 07 January, 2008 9:54 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Behavior Effecting Presentation or Structure - Precedence?

Frank Palinkas wrote:

>
> Am I correct in thinking that behavior should target structure first, and if 
> necessary, presentation second?
>

Frank,

when you have a choice I don't think it matters which one you choose.

But this raises another question I'd like to ask...take these situations:

a) the user agent has Javascript that doesn't support the DOM (but has
CSS enabled)
b) the user agent is Javascript enabled and not CSS enabled

how common is a) (maybe not on the desktop but what about other
devices?) and does b) actually exist out there?

If so, then I'm not sure there's ever really a choice. e.g. in your
example you would need to use both methods to cover a) and b):
a) would need you to set the style to display: none
and b) would need you to try and remove the node

--
Chris Knowles


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

[WSG] Behavior Effecting Presentation or Structure - Precedence?

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi All,

I hope everyone has had a pleasant, restful and blessed holiday.

May I pose a question regarding the Behavior layer with its intended effect on 
presentation or structure? I'm looking for an answer according to best practice 
and standards, as to which layer should we target to achieve a desired effect.

Scenario:
I have a div whose contents are only to be seen when scripting is not available 
(I don't employ the noscript element). The div is given an id attribute and 
value ("remove") acting as a hook to an external javascript function which 
performs the intended behavior. So far, so good. The function can affect either 
the style or the structure of the div and its contents. Both approaches work 
equally well. My question is which is the preferred/correct layer to target 
when we have a choice? The functions are exhibited below:

// - behavior affects the presentation layer
function remove1()
{
document.getElementById("remove").style.display = "none";
}
/

/ - behavior affects the structure layer
function remove2()
{
var div = document.getElementById("remove");
div.parentNode.removeChild(div);
}
/

Am I correct in thinking that behavior should target structure first, and if 
necessary, presentation second?

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

[Frank Palinkas]

To follow up on David's message to us, here's a video from Opera Watch
featuring Hakon Wium Lie (co-father of CSS and a principal owner of Opera) on
the subject at hand.

http://operawatch.com/news/2007/12/opera-cto-talks-about-the-operas-antitrust
-complaint-against-microsoft-video.html

My apologies to those who have already seen and heard this.

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer/Developer 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Storey
Sent: Friday, 14 December, 2007 11:16 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Opera files antitrust against MS: standards one part

I just one to make one point about this case clear (although I'm not  
involved in it in any way).  The complaint is manly about getting  
Microsoft to follow accepted web standards more closely, and isn't  
about money at all.  I believe we (Opera) have stated that we don't  
want to earn any money as a result of this complaint.  Hopefully this  
is not one of the cases where just lawyers win.

I'm hoping that IE8 comes out and surprises a lot of people with its  
level of standards support.  That would be a win for everyone.

David


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] typepad css problem

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Michael,

Maybe this can help with the styling? I use this when I need a hyperlink
styled as a button. As Mike illustrated, the hyperlink anchor is encapsulated
within a paragraph element. The "button" in the a:link and a:visited pseudo
classes are light grey background with black text. The a:hover, a:active, and
a:focus pseudo classes are black background with white text. The "button"
border colors change respectively according to the link state. Obviously, you
can adjust everything according to need.

///

(X)HTML:

_button name goes here_

//

CSS:

.top
{
margin: 2em 0em 0em 0.8em;
letter-spacing: 0.1em;
font-size: 0.8em;
background-image: none;
}

.top a:link, .top a:visited
{
padding: 0em 0.6em;
font-variant: small-caps;
color: #000;
background-color: #ddd;
background-image: none;
text-decoration: none;
border-top: 0.15em solid #bbb;
border-left: 0.15em solid #bbb;
border-bottom: 0.15em solid #000;
border-right: 0.15em solid #000;
}

.top a:hover, .top a:active, .top a:focus
{
padding: 0em 0.6em;
font-variant: small-caps;
color: #fff;
background-color: #000;
text-decoration: none;
background-image: none;
border-top: 0.15em solid #aaa;
border-left: 0.15em solid #aaa;
border-bottom: 0.15em solid #f5f5f5;
border-right: 0.15em solid #f5f5f5;
}

//

Hope this helps,

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] RE: Disabling Fonts in Font Stacks

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Philippe,

> How can we encourage the other (non-Mozilla) browser manufacturers
> to add support for this very useful feature?

If I understand your question, please download, install, and have a look at
Opera (release version 9.4).

The tool I think you're looking for can be found by going to:
Tools/Preferences/Advanced/Fonts. This opens the extensive "Desired font
selection" dialog box. Please have a look?

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Appropriate use of the ABBR tag and Roman Numerals

[Frank Palinkas]

May I just follow on to Patrick's astute advice. A very common misconception
standards/accessibility designers/developers have is that the title
attribute, regardless of the element it resides in, is turned on/activated by
default in most assistive technology devices. It's not. From my experience
with visually disabled users employing assistive technologies, they expect
that content previous to the element, or more importantly, concisely defined
in the text of the element, is what they need. IMHO, title attributes, for
the most part are redundant, bloat markup, and are unheeded by those devices,
and thus their users, that we strive to write for.

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Lauke
Sent: Thursday, 29 November, 2007 18:36 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Appropriate use of the ABBR tag and Roman Numerals

> Matthew Pennell

> It's not an abbreviated form of the full date by any stretch of the
imagination.

Tell that to the microformats crowd - they've practically stretched the idea
of "abbreviation" to anything, just so they can fit their machine readable
data into the page...

> Why not just use a span (or whatever other tag is convenient): 
[...]
> Functionally it's exactly the same as using ABBR.

Except that screen readers won't expand spans or read out their title in any
way. Though one could argue that screen readers should have their own
heuristics to spot (the more unambiguous) roman numerals and read them out
accordingly.

I think maybe the more fundamental question for Tate: why are you using roman
numerals if you know they're going to confuse people?

Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise & Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY  


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Web Form Best Practices

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Howard,

If I may add to the excellent advice already offered, and which caters to
another aspect of an accessible web form? Please take a look at my Fast Track
tutorial "Calling Accessible Context-Sensitive Help with Unobtrusive
DOM/JavaScript" at my web page: http://frank.helpware.net.

This concentrates on two accessible methods of adding c-s help to a web form,
and also demonstrates form markup structure without depending on table,
paragraph, or definition list elements. The majority of the unobtrusive
DOM/JavaScript was built with the help and guidance of Gez Lemon of The
Paciello Group (TGP), while other js elements are based on designs by Simon
Willison and Jeremy Keith. You can view it on line and also download the
complete zipped project package containing all external script, css, images
and web pages if it suits.

Hope this may add a bit more to your info.

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Howard Kim
Sent: Thursday, 15 November, 2007 0:56 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Web Form Best Practices

I hope this question is appropriate for this list.  I'm doing some research
on 
best practices for creating web forms with the following in mind:

* Accessibility
* Semantic Markup with CSS
* Form Layout & Design

I would like to come up with some "form templates" for my organization based
on 
best practices and web standards.  I was wondering if anyone knew of any 
resources related to this topic.  I've done a Google search for "web form
best 
practices" which came back with a huge number of responses.  Any help
focusing 
my search?

Many thanks.

~Howard


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Colour Blindness Statistics

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Rahul,

If it will help, please see my new Fast Track tutorial, "Building Accessible
Static Navigation with CSS" at my web page: http://frank.helpware.net. The
markup and css of the navigation section is graphically explained with design
emphasis being directed to color blind, hard-of-seeing and quick memory loss
users. You can view it on line and also download the complete project package
for your reference and experimentation.

Kind regards,

Frank 

///

I suppose I should have made myself clearer as to why I was asking  
for this information on this particular forum - I am writing a paper  
on how one can design sensibly, and take into account various  
impairments - colour blindness being one of them.

Joe Clarke mentions that 1 in 12 people, or about 8% of the entire  
planet has one type of colour blindness or the other. I will probably  
end up using that number, unless I find a more reliable source.

Thanks again,
  - Rahul.

[1] http://www.hhmi.org/senses/b130.html
[2] http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/c/color_blindness/prevalence.htm


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

[WSG] 3 New Fast Track Tutorials

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi All,

For those who may be interested, I've published three new Fast Track
tutorials to the http://frank.helpware.net site: 

"Building Accessible Static Navigation with CSS"
"Calling Accessible Context-Sensitive Help with Unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript" *
"Creating Auto-line Numbered Code Blocks with CSS" *

* These two tutorials will be presented at the upcoming 2008 WritersUA Annual
Conference in March at Portland, Oregon, USA. You can reach them through the
"Go to the Fast Track Tutorials" hyperlink on the home page of the preceding
web address.

All work is done in the Microsoft Visual Studio 2005 Source Code Editors for
(X)HTML, CSS and JScript. I've updated and redesigned all tutorials employing
the CSS 2.1 Liquid Box Model for layout/presentation, and built fully
accessible static navigation for mouse and keyboard into every web page. Each
web page illustrates the complete separation of Structure/Content ((X)HTML),
Presentation (CSS), and Behavior (Unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript), the semantic
nature of the content/markup relationship, and the application of
accessibility attributes and values according to the US Govt. Section 508
Rules of the ADA and the W3C Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0 - Level
Double A.

Please use these and the other tutorials whenever you may need them. They are
free to the technical writing, user assistance, and web design communities.
If thoughts of a contribution come to mind, may I kindly recommend your local
children's cancer crusade fund?

I'd like to humbly thank all those who took their personal time and energy to
review, comment, and provide technical and grammatical feedback to me. They
are represented in these groups: Help Authoring Tools and Techniques (HATT),
the Guild of Accessible Web Designers (GAWDS), and the Web Standards Group
(WSG).

Please enjoy! :-)

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

[WSG] Silverlight Followup - Silverlight 1.1 Alpha

[Frank Palinkas]

For those who may be interested and haven't seen this yet, here's the address
to a CodeProject article on Silverlight 1.1 Alpha:

http://www.codeproject.com/useritems/SLFun.asp

The 1.1 Alpha now incorporates the use of C# managed code and ASP.Net. 

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] javascript help

[Frank Palinkas]

Alexander,

 

What good will it do you if the correct answers are supplied and you have
absolutely no concept as to why they are correct?

 

Time to do some research, study, and experimentation, like everyone else.

 

Kind regards,

Frank

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Alexander Uribe
Sent: Thursday, 01 November, 2007 6:46 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] javascript help
 
Hi there,
 
I have some questions for an assignment that I can't figure out. If anyone
could be of assistance that would be much appreciated.
 





Join Lavalife for free. What are you waiting for?
 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*** 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] SilverLight

[Frank Palinkas]

/* And where we can't make a decision on your behalf, we offer a quick way to
set up accessibility through our tools. */

Concerning AJAX and Silverlight - I only pray that their interpretation ARIA
is not just another opera solo.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October, 2007 18:01 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] SilverLight

Quoting Christian Montoya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> On 10/30/07, Derek Featherstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Can you show us where they claim it is much easier for screen readers,
>> search spiders to work with? THAT is what I want to see...

I recently spotted it in this article
http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/05/11/silverlight_programming_q_and_a/

Quoting Keith Smith, product manager of the user experience platform  
and tools team at Microsoft covering Silverlight as well as WPF and  
tools like the new Expression Studio:

"Accessibility and localisation are areas where we think we have some  
very good solutions and tools support. Silverlight will adhere to all  
those standards and support screen readers but the most important  
thing is how easy it is for developers to discover [the accessibility  
options]. The pattern we follow with Ajax is to make smart decisions  
on behalf of the designer and developer ? so if you set the caption on  
a button we make sure that caption is copied automatically to the  
appropriate metadata. And where we can't make a decision on your  
behalf, we offer a quick way to set up accessibility through our  
tools. We have an accessibility checker for ASP.NET and Ajax and we  
want to do the same thing for Silverlight. But where we can put the  
processing burden on the computer, we want to do that."

I'll believe it when I see it, to be honest.

P
-- 
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] SilverLight

[Frank Palinkas]

Thanks Christian,

Agreed, more work has to be done. One problem I find with this is that the
build-generated (X)HTML pages are not contained within a packaged vehicle, as
in a .swf, etc. These free-standing pages are at the mercy of the Silverlight
plug-in being installed on the user's OS, and at this time, it only caters
for the Trident and Gecko range of browser/user agents. I'm not a managed
code expert by any means, so I do stand to be corrected here.

I've been through something similar before, experimenting with XML and XSLT +
CSS to produce single-sourced user assistance and developer technical
documentation. For instance, needing a javascript interpreter to sniff out
which browser is active and then override the OS generic XSLT processor to
allow a page to render in the chosen browser with its own XSLT processor.
Even so, the pages I created with this method all had their structure,
presentation and content dynamically generated, as in the Silverlight
example, and of no use (at this stage) beyond the graphic rendering.

I think that Gez Lemon from The Paciello Group has looked into the
accessibility aspects of these early versions of Silverlight, but am not
aware of his findings yet.

Kind regards,

Frank


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October, 2007 7:48 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] SilverLight

On 10/30/07, Frank Palinkas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> From an accessibility aspect, a screen scrapper maybe be able to do its
job.
> However, any attempt to work the markup will be futile.

Obviously this wouldn't be as easy as understanding plain HTML markup,
but what I was saying was that a device could refer to Scene.xaml.js
and parse that to get the relevant content/actions/etc. It's just
slightly better than having to look at a .swf to figure out what's
going on.

New work will have to be done to make sense of Silverlight but the
process should be easier than anything Adobe did with Flash... not
that I'm bashing Flash here.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] SilverLight

[Frank Palinkas]

Interesting. Some observations.

I downloaded and installed the Silverlight SDK 1.0. I built the example
project in VS 2005 running on WinXP Pro SP2 with no problems. However, it
would be better to run this on Vista with the Orcas Beta (VS 2008) because of
the generic XAML, WPF and .Net 3.0 and 3.5 frameworks inherent within those
platforms.

The Silverlight build process produces a .dll. You need the Silverlight
plug-in to render the resulting html page. Also, from a quick test, it will
only render in IE and the Gecko range. Forget Opera, Safari for windows, etc.
>From an accessibility aspect, a screen scrapper maybe be able to do its job.
However, any attempt to work the markup will be futile. The Default.htm web
page renders a "Click Me" button. Here is the markup behind the Default.htm
page produced by the build:

///

http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";>

FrankSilverlight_1









createSilverlight();





//

Everything is dynamically rendered by the javascript. This reminded me of the
need to use javascript (Sarissa library) to dynamically render XML via XSLT
in a multi-browser environment on a windows operating system.

If anyone wants the Silverlight project package that produces this, please
let me know and I'll zip and email it to you.

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis D. Falls
Sent: Tuesday, 30 October, 2007 5:52 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] SilverLight

I know from a developer stand point... the .NET languages (C# VB.NET
IronPython etc) and XAML are a lot nicer to use.  I hate ActionScript.  Lol
Great angle to look at though...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 11:26 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] SilverLight

On 10/29/07, Travis D. Falls <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So I have to ask... what do you all think of SilverLight... do you think
it
> is just another way to do Flash work in a different Tech. or will it be
> more?

It's a little more. I've been looking into it and the distinct
difference between Silverlight and Flash is that Silverlight is
rendered XML while Flash is a compiled format. Therefore, Microsoft
claims that Silverlight is much easier for screen readers, search
spiders, etc. to work with. We'll see if things really do work out
that way.

-- 
--
Christian Montoya
Rhristianmontoya.net


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Simon,

You're most welcome!

With this method, turning off scripting in a browser/user agent lets the
nested lists degrade gracefully, and all are exposed. 

Something else you may find useful - besides the expand/collapse image placed
left of an expandable list item , I also place a link state symbol to the
right of the link text. The changing and persisting of the symbols is
controlled by the anchor link pseudo classes in an external stylesheet. This
is to aid hard-of-seeing, color blind and memory disabled users to know if a
link is unvisited, visited or being focused on/hovered over.

Yes, I've seen flickering occur (on refresh, for example) on pages that have
numerous images embedded in them with the  element, along with the
script we're talking about. Please see Chris Knowles message referring to
Dean Edwards solution to this. Thanks Chris.

I'll email you the package and please do what you like with it, maybe improve
it. I'm always willing to learn and progress.

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Simon Cockayne
Sent: Monday, 29 October, 2007 13:24 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Re: WSG Digest

Hi Frank,

Thanks for feedback.

* What happens with CSS/Javascript disabled?

WCAG 1.0, rightly, wants graceful degradation of CSS/Javascript is
disabled...and so do I.

So...*without* using an alternate page...(e.g. a text only
ghetto...scary)...I'd like my (X)HTML-only page to give all the menu
options.

So...I tinkered with:

A) Showing *all* options in the (X)HTML content...so they *will*
appear expanded and therefore usable with just (X)HTML.

B) Then I use external (unobtrusive) Javascript window.onload to
remove (via DOM Scripting) all the L2 elements*...this works...but I
do see an initial "flicker"..i.e you can discern the original page
momentarily and then the L2 items being removed.

*Then I set up eventhandlers for the L1 items...so that L2 is added by
DOM scripting.


Have you come across this "flickering" problem...is there a better
way? Can I remove the DOM elements before they are displayed?


And...yes, please - I'd love to get the zip.

I will try to upload an example of my approach and send you the URL
one evening this week.

Cheers,

Simon
*****
From: Frank Palinkas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:06:11 +0200
Subject: RE: [WSG] Toggle L2 menu items (within WCAG)

Hi Simon,



I’m working on a similar issue using unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript to produce
the expand/collapse effect of nested unordered list items in a navigation
tree structure. This method (related containers) allows activation by both
mouse and keyboard, and the expanded nested list items remain open until
collapsed by the user. All DOM/Javascript is external to the structure layer
of the web page, along with event handlers and presentation layer styles. Gez
Lemon, from The Paciello Group (hi Steve), was instrumental in helping me get
the DOM/JavaScript sorted out â€" he is absolutely brilliant. There is still
some work to do on it, but the initial behavior layer is working properly.
This is definitely not the only way to accomplish this, but I thought It may
add to the suggestions being made by other list members. I can email you a
small zipped sample project folder for your inspection and possible use, if
you feel this may help. Please let me know?



Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help

W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert

M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+

Senior Technical Communicator

Web Standards & Accessibility Designer

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Toggle L2 menu items (within WCAG)

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Simon,

 

I’m working on a similar issue using unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript to produce
the expand/collapse effect of nested unordered list items in a navigation
tree structure. This method (related containers) allows activation by both
mouse and keyboard, and the expanded nested list items remain open until
collapsed by the user. All DOM/Javascript is external to the structure layer
of the web page, along with event handlers and presentation layer styles. Gez
Lemon, from The Paciello Group (hi Steve), was instrumental in helping me get
the DOM/JavaScript sorted out – he is absolutely brilliant. There is still
some work to do on it, but the initial behavior layer is working properly.
This is definitely not the only way to accomplish this, but I thought It may
add to the suggestions being made by other list members. I can email you a
small zipped sample project folder for your inspection and possible use, if
you feel this may help. Please let me know?

 

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help

W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert

M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   

Senior Technical Communicator 

Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Simon Cockayne
Sent: Sunday, 28 October, 2007 22:10 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Toggle L2 menu items (within WCAG)

 

Hi,

I am using an  to store "level 1" menu items , each of which directs
to a page representing a topic.

I know have a requirement to add in "level 2" menu items (zero or more
beneath each L1 menu item", when user clicks(selects) an L1 menu, the L2
options should become visible. 

Home
   Bio 
   Research
   Teaching 
  
 Classes 
 Cases
  
   
   Links 
 


I've started down the rod of using DOM scripting...to remove the L2 items
when the page loads and then toggle there addition/removal when a L1 item is
clickedbut the JS is getting complicated...trying to support IE and
Firefox. 

Is there a CSS way that can:

A) Show ALL items of CSS is no supported (for WCAG).
B) NOT impact SEO.

Cheers,

Simon

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Frank Palinkas]

Thanks Steven. Combined with Patrick's reply, and based on your experience
and deep involvement with accessibility, this is indeed excellent, practical
advice.

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steven Faulkner
Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 12:17 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

Hi Frank,
I would suggest that if you want the information available to screen
reader users or keyboard only users (as title attribute content is not
available to keyboard users), then don't place it in the title
attribute on links.

On 24/10/2007, Frank Palinkas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
> If I may follow on to Rebecca's query and based your reply, is it then
> considered good practice (in general) _not_ to add title attributes and
> values to hyperlinks?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Frank
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Steven Faulkner
> Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 11:20 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers
>
> Hi Rebecca,
> announcing of title attribute values on links is not a default screen
> reader behaviour and for JAWS the announcing of the title attribute is
> an OR choice (read title or link content) so effectively the title
> attribute conentt for links is unavailable to most screen reader
> users.
>
> On 24/10/2007, Rebecca Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm looking for up to date info on title attribute behaviour & screen
> > readers, especially where used on site global navigation.
> >
> > As an example, http://www.e.govt.nz uses fairly long title attributes
> > for the main navigation links, and this repeats throughout the site
> > (i.e., not just on the home page).
> >
> > For example, "About e-govt" in the left nav has:
> >
> > http://www.e.govt.nz/about-egovt";>
> >About e-govt
> > 
> >
> > Main thing I'm wondering is, with a screen reader, if reading out of
> > title attribute text is
> > enabled, are you forced to listen to the full title text each time it
> > is encountered, or can you skip over it?
> >
> > In the above example, the title attribute is applied to a span nested
> > inside the link, rather than to the link itself - would this make any
> > difference?
> >
> > (Comparing this to phone customer support or online banking services -
> > some force you to listen to the full spiel about each option before
> > you can do anything, others don't - they allow you to activate your
> > menu choice without listening to the full explanatory message.)
> >
> > Or are most screen reader users not using title attribute text - some
> > time ago there was an article published suggesting most had it
> > disabled...
> >
> > Would appreciate any information anyone might have on how this works!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Rebecca
> >
> >
> > ***
> > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > ***
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG Europe
> Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
> Web Accessibility Toolbar -
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Frank Palinkas]

Thanks Patrick. That answers my question, and reinforces the importance of
employing clear, and concise link text.  

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 12:10 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

Frank Palinkas wrote:

> If I may follow on to Rebecca's query and based your reply, is it then
> considered good practice (in general) _not_ to add title attributes and
> values to hyperlinks?

You can add them, but you must be aware that it's likely that screen 
reader users won't hear them by default. Also, sighted keyboard users 
will never see them either. You can add advisory/optional info in the 
title, but nothing that is critical to understanding what a link 
is/does. Most of the time, I find that it's better to ensure that the 
clearly visible link text is self-evident enough, and doing away with 
titles altogether.

P
-- 
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re*dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team
http://streetteam.webstandards.org/
__


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Steve,

If I may follow on to Rebecca's query and based your reply, is it then
considered good practice (in general) _not_ to add title attributes and
values to hyperlinks?

Kind regards,

Frank 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steven Faulkner
Sent: Wednesday, 24 October, 2007 11:20 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Title attribute and screen readers

Hi Rebecca,
announcing of title attribute values on links is not a default screen
reader behaviour and for JAWS the announcing of the title attribute is
an OR choice (read title or link content) so effectively the title
attribute conentt for links is unavailable to most screen reader
users.

On 24/10/2007, Rebecca Cox <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm looking for up to date info on title attribute behaviour & screen
> readers, especially where used on site global navigation.
>
> As an example, http://www.e.govt.nz uses fairly long title attributes
> for the main navigation links, and this repeats throughout the site
> (i.e., not just on the home page).
>
> For example, "About e-govt" in the left nav has:
>
> http://www.e.govt.nz/about-egovt";>
>About e-govt
> 
>
> Main thing I'm wondering is, with a screen reader, if reading out of
> title attribute text is
> enabled, are you forced to listen to the full title text each time it
> is encountered, or can you skip over it?
>
> In the above example, the title attribute is applied to a span nested
> inside the link, rather than to the link itself - would this make any
> difference?
>
> (Comparing this to phone customer support or online banking services -
> some force you to listen to the full spiel about each option before
> you can do anything, others don't - they allow you to activate your
> menu choice without listening to the full explanatory message.)
>
> Or are most screen reader users not using title attribute text - some
> time ago there was an article published suggesting most had it
> disabled...
>
> Would appreciate any information anyone might have on how this works!
>
> Cheers,
> Rebecca
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi James,

 

Tony has given you some great advice. If I may add to that, although it may
be difficult depending on the circumstance, try to keep a cool head at all
times. Your integrity comes first, backed up by your intellectual property.

 

If it may help you in your studies, I can email you several Fast track
tutorial project packages regarding the application of web standards and
accessibility in various scenarios:

 

"Building Accessible Static Navigation with CSS"

"Calling Accessible Context-Sensitive Help with Unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript"

"Creating Accessible Tabular Data Tables"

"Creating Auto-line Numbered Code Blocks"

 

These are free-of-charge, so don't worry about any kind of compensation. I
write all code and content within the Visual Studio 2005 IDE Source Code
Editors, so there's no extraneous code added to the HTML, CSS and
DOM/JavaScript of a proprietary nature by a WYSIWYG authoring environment.
I'll be presenting these at the next WritersUA Annual conference in March
2008 at Portland, Oregon, USA. Please let me know, and I'll be happy to send
them.

 

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help

W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert

M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   

Senior Technical Communicator 

Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Jeffery
Sent: Saturday, 20 October, 2007 12:00 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Web Standards In Colleges and Universities

 

Thanks Toney.

Most of the documents we are handed from the tutor are grammatically wrong
and contain a huge amount of spelling errors, such as:

"Place the curser over the table cell click ok when you done" 

Im not sure who is writing them, but again, another issue.

I will have a private chat with him, and see what he says. Im all for pushing
Web Standards forward, and when i see a college in Birmingham (thats classed 
as on of the best) teaching outdated methods it makes me angry for both
the industry and for the thousands of students.

It may not be his fault, your right.

James

On 10/20/07, Tony Crockford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 20 Oct 2007, at 10:18, James Jeffery wrote:
>  Should i use my essay and examples and
> take it to the head of
> the college? I really don't know how to go about this, but its
> definatly a 
> problem.


Who set the syllabus?

Assuming it's the college administration, then they are the people to
discuss your concerns with.

don't assume the tutor is at fault.

have a private chat with him, if he truly isn't aware of web 
standards, then you can tell him that you will be speaking to the
college administration about the syllabus being taught and its
shortcomings.

if he is aware, but is bound by the syllabus, then you may find an 
ally in your quest.

either way, have the private chat,  challenging him in front of
class, is bound to create a defensive stance from him.

if the syllabus is wrong (as it appears to be) work your way through 
the college administration, explaining that the methods being taught
are wrong and using this as support for your case:

http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/government_it/web_guidelines/ 
consultations.aspx

"In order to meet European objectives for inclusive e-government and
so that the UK public sector meets its obligations with regards to
disability legislation, we have proposed that all government websites 
must meet Level Double-A of the W3C guidelines by December 2008.
Government websites are strongly recommended to develop an
accessibility policy to aid the planning and procurement of inclusive
websites. This includes building a business case, analysing user 
needs, developing an accessibility test plan and procuring accessible
content authoring tools. The guidance covers some of the design
solutions to common problems faced by users but is mainly aimed at
strategic managers and project managers to assist with planning and 
procurement."



try not to be adversarial, you'll get a better response with a "can
you explain why we are learning outdated methods" approach.



hth and good luck...





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*

RE: [WSG] introducing a prompt to download or open a pdf

[Frank Palinkas]

Responding to Paul, 

I'm doing the same, with the addition of a note to the user that a new window
will open upon activation of the icon/hyperlink. Some may think this is
overkill, but I'd rather have the user aware of what's going to occur.

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Minty
Sent: Tuesday, 16 October, 2007 8:53 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] introducing a prompt to download or open a pdf

 
> Sent: Tuesday, 16 October 2007 4:16 PM
> To: web standards group
> Subject: [WSG] introducing a prompt to download or open a pdf
>
> i know that this has come up before, but would someone point me to
best practices to introduce a > > > prompt to open or download a pdf or
any file for that matter?
>
> dwain

Dwain,

Funnily enough I'm working on a design pattern for this, as it doesn't
seem to be documented very well in the usual design pattern collections.

I'd recommend displaying with a PDF icon, the text 'PDF' and a file size
(in Kb or Mb). I suggest setting the target to a new window, then the
user can righ click to save.

If you want to go further, I'd suggest having two links labelled 'open'
and 'save'. You could put in a pop-up with the option; but I think that
this would break the expected behaviour more. You could also detect the
connection speed and suggest a download time; but this may not give you
much ROI.

It's always good to have an HTML version of the content; but you've
probably already thought of that.

I'd be keen to know other people's thoughts; especially if you know of
any design patterns for this.

Cheers
Paul

Paul Minty Director

mintleaf studio 
We design & create stylish websites

Post: Box 6 108 Flinders Street Melbourne VIC 3000
Level 2 108 Flinders Street Melbourne
T. 03 9662 9344   
F. 03 9662 9255   
M. 0418 307 475
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mintleafstudio.com.au






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Story Boards

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Marvin,

 

In April of this year I came across an add-in template for Microsoft Visio,
enabling a user to produce wire-frames and more within the Visio work
environment. Here is the address to the web page and small downloadable
package:

 

http://www.guuui.com/issues/02_07.php

 

Maybe this will help get the job done?

 

Kind regards,

Frank 

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of marvin hunkin
Sent: Wednesday, 10 October, 2007 5:47 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Story Boards

 

Hi.
doing a project for my website development course.
now, part of the requirements says that i need to create a story board to
represent what content is to be displayed on each page.
Now sighted students, would draw navigation and story board diagrams.
now, had to do this in word tables and tried html.
but my lecturer is still not happy with what i have come up with.
now, just wondering, is there any software, that might be able to represent
the story boards for the four websites that i am developing for this
semester.
any tips, tricks, or any other similar experiences.
let me know, if anyone been in the same position.
unfortunately the guy who did start to develop an accessible text to speech
drawing software, got his phd, and did not complete the project and still in
limbo.
he got to the third user tests, and then nicked off.
he did this at Burkely University in Callifornia and the product was to be
called Intercommunication Draw 2.
okay, can you help out or give suggestions or how to resolve these problems?
cheers Marvin. 



Join Lavalife for free. What are you waiting for?
 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*** 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Load Javascript early or on-demand?

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Kit,

Don't know if this will help, but Simon Willison created an
addLoadEvent(func) to get multiple scripts loading correctly on a page.

Please see his blog: 

http://simonwillison.net/2004/May/26/addLoadEvent/

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kit Grose
Sent: Tuesday, 09 October, 2007 8:10 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Load Javascript early or on-demand?

G'day all,

I've had some internal debate about this topic, so I thought I'd put  
it to the list:

Imagine a large (300 dynamic pages+) site with a real client focus on  
speed. An average user is expected to visit around 5% of the site per  
visit (~15 pages), and the user is expected to visit with an unprimed  
cache around 75% of the time.

One very popular page of the site expects to get hits from more than  
half of all visitors, and uses all kinds of (unobtrusive) Javascript  
goodies, requiring Script.aculo.us (and therefore Prototype). The  
page is the only page on the entire site that uses either library.

The server is quite slow, so HTTP requests are at a premium.

So the question I ask is this: do you
1. load the libraries as part of the global header on every page so  
that visitors to the swishy page aren't waiting an exorbitant time to  
view all the Javascript goodies while waiting for two entire JS  
libraries (and the actual behaviour for the page) to download, but  
extending the initial load time of the site, or
2. load the libraries on the page in question only, slowing the intra- 
site navigation, but not penalising users who never intend to visit  
that particular page of the site.

In essence, is it more important to optimise the initial load time,  
or load-time per subsequent page?


Cheers,

Kit Grose
Frontend Developer
iQmultimedia
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] 5,000th member

[Frank Palinkas]

Indeed! Without any doubt, I own a ton to all of you, especially the
moderators.

Kind regards, with due respect and admiration,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Designer
Sent: Tuesday, 25 September, 2007 12:28 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] 5,000th member

Mike Brown wrote:
> Russ
> 
> I just want to say, on behalf of all 5,000 members I'm sure, thanks to you
> and Peter for the list.
> 
> It's been your vision and dedication that's kept it going and nourished,
> and what you've both done has been influential in ways I'm sure you don't
> realise.
> 
> Well done! :)
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
> 
> 
> 
> 
Hear Hear!

I have learn't more from the mails in this group than anywhere else - 
and it's not only about particular markup  - it's about attitudes and 
approaches.  Invaluable!

Thank you!

-- 
Bob

www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] How many of us are public and how many private?

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi John,

Thought I'd send this off-list to you:

Commercial Sector: I build web-based tech documentation for the development
division of an international logistics/supply chain company - Supergroup
Trading Ltd in South Africa (can't wait to get outta here).

Non-profit Sector: I produce gratis Fast Track tutorials geared toward the
tech writing/help authoring/web design communities. 

Hope that helps?

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 

website: http://frank.helpware.net 
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Member: 
Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) 
Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.)
Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) 

Supergroup Trading Ltd. 
Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa 
website: http://www.supergroup.co.za

Work:   +27 011 523 4931 
Home:   +27 011 455 5287 
Fax:    +27 011 455 3112 
Mobile: +27 074 109 1908


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Horner
Sent: Wednesday, 12 September, 2007 7:17 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] How many of us are public and how many private?

I've noticed that a lot of articles about web design seem to assume that
the web developer/designer is working in the commercial sector, and
often it's assumed that we're freelance too.

As an example, we'll often see arguments on here based on "the target
audience" meaning e.g. that you're designing a website designed to sell
a product -- your product is nappies, therefore your audience is parents
with babies. Public websites often have a target audience of "everyone".

Lots of web content gets made, as Richard Stallman said about software,
just because it needs to be made: shrink-wrapped, boxed commercial
software is the tip of the iceberg compared to all the apps and drivers
and utilities and tools in the world which are created without any
thought of profit, simply because they're needed.

So I wonder, how many people on this list are in the commercial sector
and how many are in the non-profit / public / government / education
sector?



=
=
The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential
and
may contain legally privileged or copyright material.   It is intended only
for
the use of the addressee(s).  If you are not the intended recipient of this
email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or
any attachments.  If you have received this message in error, please notify
the
sender immediately and delete this email from your system.  The ABC does not
represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free.   Before
opening any attachment you should check for viruses.  The ABC's liability is
limited to resupplying any email and attachments
=
=


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the reply. 

/* "Explain to them how much more money they can make..." */
My apologies, I should have stated that employing web standards and
accessibility will give them the _ability_ or _enhance their opportunity_ to
reach a larger audience and thus improve their chances of generating more
income. These tools are absent in their current website environment, and
their addition is a positive and constructive move forward for the brand and
its exposure.

/* "And they don't necessarily want everyone to view their website." */
Agreed. Apples to apples. By everyone/all I mean those particular to the
target audience. However, unless the site is protected by a secure log on
username and password, there's not much to prevent anyone from visiting it.
Also, it will give the marketers additional cannon fodder to advertise
accessibility, opening up new business opportunities i.e. government tenders,
etc.

/* We're asking them to risk losing some of what they already have in return
for an unquantifiable benefit. */
I find it difficult to understand that they would be losing anything. We are
in their presence because of a problem or need that must be addressed, of
which they themselves are aware. We are offering a positive and innovative
move forward for them - a solution. From where I sit, they have everything to
gain by going the route you suggest.

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Wednesday, 15 August, 2007 22:55 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

"Explain to them how much more money they can make..."

Just how much can they make? Where's the proof? That's what they always ask
and that's what we can't answer. There are no plausible case studies to
support this. It's pure conjecture. Yes I do know about the Legal & General
case study but so many factors are involved that it is impossible to
quantify the benefit deriving from the improved accessibility or standards
compliance. They were also starting from a very poor base.

And they don't necessarily want everyone to view their website. Marketers
specialise in segmentation, meaning that they want to present the best value
proposition for their target market. Their target market is rarely everyone,
and for some products it may be a very narrow demographic.

We're asking them to risk losing some of what they already have in return
for an unquantifiable benefit. By contrast, we have nothing to lose. Is it
any wonder they are sceptical?

Steve
 


 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi,

 

IMHO I would like to add one important factor to this. Money.

 

>From my experience, regardless of how "pretty", "wow", etc., a client wants
their site to be, what they're really saying to you is that they need it to
produce a load of money for them. Keep that foremost in mind when design
decisions are being made. An accessible, standards-based, semantic, and fully
usable website is worth its weight in gold. Ask the client how many users he
wants coming in the virtual front door and making a purchase. They'll
probably say everyone. However, they don't think of the multitudes of
physically challenged/disabled users also looking for their products. Guide
them in this direction. Explain to them how much more money they can make by
establishing an all-user friendly storefront. Boring? Last time I checked,
money wasn't boring.

 

If that doesn't work, then politely wish them a good day and congratulations
on eventually becoming their own best customer.

 

Kind regards,

Frank

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Jeffery
Sent: Wednesday, 15 August, 2007 12:27 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Usability & Accessibility Over Design?

 

Ok i think some people have missed the point a bit, but its probably my
fault.

When i said design, i was referring to the hi-end graphical content. The
sites that are
there to amaze people and go 'how did they do that' which is they way alot of
people 
seem to be heading due to convention.

A client generally knows nothing about anything, he tells you what he wants
and
expects the result. This is what im talking about. The clients see sites with
some
eye candy, and want something 'better' than that. If you give them a site
that looks 
like, say the microformats site (which is a perfect example of the way
websites these
days should be) then there usual reply is ('Its boring, there isnt much to
it').

I understand it is possible to create some amazing sites with usability and
accessibility 
at the front of the line, but the only people that know this are people like
you and me,
again a client knows nothing and 90% of them don't care.They just want what
they
asked for. If you question why his navigation fonts are very small, his reply
is something 
like ("becuase i need to fit them all on the one line so it dont look like
the navigation
is taking focus") and you cant really argue the point, because they dont tend
to listen.

I dont know what clients others have worked with, ive worked with some right
nasty 
ones, they tell the designer onthe other end of the office how they want it,
if you attempt
to pick at it, they tell you there going to go elsewere, no i cant argue, ill
get the sack.

Tis why i said, if there was a law the client would have no choice. 



On 8/15/07, Jixor - Stephen I <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

If it has poor usability its actually bad design, because design isn't just
visual style.

If visual style wins out over usability then its ALWAYS BAD DESIGN.

There is no way around it... Unless this is some highly specialized site like
a quirky flash game or something else that we are not concerned with here.

If you can't work usability into the visual style that you have in mind then
you need to step back and re-think the way you work.

Accessibility shares many aspects with usability because not all
accessibility concerns regard markup and features for highly impaired users.
However generally for most accessibility guidelines following them will
improve usability for your average user too.



James Jeffery wrote: 

Good Evening.

Does Or Should Design Out-Weight Usability and/or Accessibility?

Ive been faced with a number of situations during development on a number of
projects
that has forced me make a choice you have all probably had to make
Usability/Accessibility
over design.

I know Usability and Accessibility are very different subjects, but they are
both just as
important. The users experience should be a good one, its sort of like a shop
keeper or 
store manager, he has to make sure both non-disabled and disabled shoppers
are happy
when shopping, otherwise they wont come back. The shop keeper also would have
to
try to make a disabled persons shopping trip a good one, because after all,
disabled 
shoppers deserve the same access as non-disabled shoppers.

Bringing it back to web development, personally i think that a disabled user
deserves
to browse the internet with the same level of support and access as non
disabled 
users.

And back to the question, should design come before Usability/Accessibility?

Sometimes you can do both, such as Image Replacement, or you can offer
visually
impaired users a version of your site with high contrasting colors. But there
are times 
when designers and developers do things either without thinking about
disabled users
or thinking 'Stuff them, i want my hi-end graphical interface on my site' or 
'Stuff them, i have no time to make it accessible' or even 'Stuff

RE: [WSG] Introducing myself

[Frank Palinkas]

Title: Bericht





Baie Welkom 
Koen!
 
First, many thanks for reviewing my Fast 
track tutorial and providing constructive feedback. I'm glad you decided to join 
the WSG and mailing list, and provide us with your Hollands insight when needed. 
There are many helpful and learned individuals here, so please keep an on the 
postings. A warm welcome once again,
 
Kind regards,
 
Frank




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
on behalf of Koen WillemsSent: Sun 8/12/2007 6:44 PMTo: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] Introducing 
myself

Hi all,This is a message to introduce myselfI'm male, 47 and 
live in the northern part of The Netherlands. My wife and I have two sons, the older one being a 
succesfull game-programmerAfter working several years in the management of a 
couple of municipalities, I now work as a 
senior-lawyer for a municipality.What has that to do with webstandards? Well in fact ...nothing.
But I can tell you my greatest passion during the last 2.5 decades 
was programming (just anything) on a 
computer. I remember buying my first 
computer back in 1983. It was a ZX Spectrum. In those days I first tried to program some machine code, but without 
any significant success. I just shouted it 
from the roof when after after entering '1 + 1' the screen showed '2' (or something near 
2).The last couple of years I became more and more interested in accessibility of (government)information on the 
web. I consider that a condition for any 
modern democracy to function.In 2004 with some friends I founded an 
association who maintains a Dutch forum 
for starting php-programmers, called PHPFreakz. You can find the forum at http://www.phpfreakz.nl After beeing chairman of 
that association for a couple of years I 
withdraw. I'm now just a 'member of honour'.At present I'm member 
of the advisory committee for the Dutch 
'Webguidelines for Governmentsites'(http://webrichtlijnen.overheid.nl/english/ ). Some English spoken posts about these 
guidelines can be found here:* http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2007/01/new_dutch_acces.html* http://www.webstandards.org/2007/01/15/the-dutch-embrace-web-standards/
* http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200702/the_dutch_accessibility_law_is_awesome/
Background information on these guidelines was given in a 
presentationRaph de Rooij recently gave at http://gilbanedc.com/. You can find his presentation 
here: http://www.raph.nl/presentation.pdfFurthermore 
I'm member of the Normative Committee of a Dutch foundation called 'Drempelvrij' (In English: 
'Barrierfree'). This foundation is 
responsable for the certifying of websites thats meets WCAG 1.0 
.So, I'm not a professional webdesigner, since I don't make websites 
for a living. There's one website i made 
recently: http://www.regels-stadskanaal.nl 
On the site one can find all the legislation of the municipalty I work for. The site became a prototype of the ' 
Guidelines for governmentsites'.
Suggestions to improve this site a very 
welcomeCheers,Koen Willems

***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***

***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***

RE: [WSG] (X)HTML Best Practice Sheet goes live - correct link

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Tee,

Thanks! Point noted and understood. 

Kind regards,

Frank


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tee G. Peng
Sent: Friday, 10 August, 2007 10:34 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] (X)HTML Best Practice Sheet goes live - correct link


On Aug 10, 2007, at 12:53 AM, Dean Edridge wrote:

> Frank Palinkas wrote:
>>
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Frank M. Palinkas
>> Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
>> W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert 
>> M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   Senior Technical  
>> Communicator Web Standards & Accessibility Designer  
>> 
>> website: http://frank.helpware.net email:  
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>  Member:  
>> Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) Guild of  
>> Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.)Web Standards Group  
>> (W.S.G.) 
>> Supergroup Trading Ltd. Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa website:  
>> http://www.supergroup.co.za
>> 
>> Work:   +27 011 523 4931 Home:   +27 011 455 5287 Fax:+27 011  
>> 455 3112 Mobile: +27 074 109 1908
>> 
>>

Wow! this is the longer signature I ever seen and it's quite  
unpleasant to need to scorll down in order to read the message.

Sorry, Dean and Frank, I am not making any compliant. I am here to  
learn the best web practise from many of you guys and I see that some  
of the members condemn top posting; I think bottom posting (is this  
how it's called?) is equally bad when one needs to scroll all the way  
down to read a few line of message. I think this is one of the  
accessible issue perhaps not many people pay attention to.  One of my  
client is semi-paralyze and doesn't make use of assistive software  
because, according to her,  it's too expensive and too much learning  
curve. One time she made a comment to me that I should write my  
message in the top so that she doesn't need to scroll all the way  
down ( I always trim my post when I response). I was in her office  
recently and witnessed how she uses computer, it was unimaginable  
inconvenient and uncomfortable for me to watch. She has mobile  
problem on her hands too. I watched her literally spending some 3 or  
4 minutes to scroll all the way down in order to read an email.

tee



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] (X)HTML Best Practice Sheet goes live - correct link

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Lars,

Thanks for the hard work and time taken to do this. It's appreciated.

May I make one suggestion please? The character reference (✓) you're
using for the "checkmark" symbol does not render in IE6 or below. However, it
does render perfectly in the latest versions of Opera, Firefox, Netscape and
Safari for Windows. IE 6 and below renders it as a plain square box. If you
don't mind this occurring in IE 6 and below, then please ignore my comment.
If it is of importance, then maybe using a "plus" (+) sign (+) or
another cross-browser recognized character reference will do.

Thanks again,

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 

website: http://frank.helpware.net 
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Member: 
Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) 
Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.)
Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) 

Supergroup Trading Ltd. 
Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa 
website: http://www.supergroup.co.za

Work:   +27 011 523 4931 
Home:   +27 011 455 5287 
Fax:    +27 011 455 3112 
Mobile: +27 074 109 1908


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Keryx Web
Sent: Thursday, 09 August, 2007 22:57 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] (X)HTML Best Practice Sheet goes live - correct link

Andrew Freedman skrev:
> Any chance that you could perhaps upload the page or post the correct link?


Ooops!

http://keryx.se/resources/html-elements.xhtml

Sorry all!


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] To target or not

[Frank Palinkas]

I'm with you also. However, as a tech writer I don't have the luxury of
calling the shots on which method is employed by a dev project team. I
decided to be ready for both external and internal calls from the app. 

 

Kind regards,

Frank

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 13 July, 2007 10:30 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] To target or not

 





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 8:32 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] To target or not

Id say dont use pop-ups, nobody likes them w!

:P

 

I agree - in this day and age it makes far more sense to show and hide a div
(or whatever) on your page than to throw a whole new page unless you have
reams of info to display.

 

Mike

 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*** 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] To target or not

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Matthew,

Being the tech writer for a software dev division, when calling
context-sensitive help from a web form is needed I use unobtrusive
DOM/Javascript to either let a user open a popup within the app window
(traditional method) or call the help from within (embedded) each form field.
I have a new Fast Track tutorial in final draft demonstrating how to
accomplish both methods titled "Calling Context-Sensitive Help with
Unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript". These methods are not limited to web forms and
can be applied in other ways if needed. If it would help you, please contact
me off-list and I can email you (or anyone else interested) a small zipped
package of the tutorial project folder containing the markup, content, .css,
images and DOM/JavaScript.

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 

website: http://frank.helpware.net 
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Member: 
Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) 
Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.)
Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) 

Supergroup Trading Ltd. 
Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa 
website: http://www.supergroup.co.za

Work:   +27 011 523 4931 
Home:   +27 011 455 5287 
Fax:    +27 011 455 3112 
Mobile: +27 074 109 1908



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matthew Ohlman
Sent: Friday, 13 July, 2007 4:21 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] To target or not

Hello List,

I was curious what others opinions were on this issue...

Since W3C doesn't allow the target attribute in XHTML Strict, which do 
you think is better?  Having the window opening up with JavaScript or 
just keeping the page in the same window like W3C wants. 

I assume the reason for not allowing the target attribute is for 
accessibility--because screen readers can not control pop-ups.  
Therefore it seems logical to me to keep it in the same window--even if 
it is an external site, etc.

What does everyone think?

Matthew
-- 
Matthew Ohlman
www.ohlman.com


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Page Structure

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Andrew,

 

I would say the most important _thing_ in a newspaper is the title of lead
story for that part of the day. The analogy to a web document would be the
topic name of the page and be marked up as the h1. The name of the newspaper
itself doesn't offer any timely information or _news_. Thus, I would limit
that name to a masthead, along with a tagline if it's part of the
identity/logo of the publishing house.

 

Kind regards,

Frank

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andrew Maben
Sent: Monday, 02 July, 2007 15:17 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Cc: Andrew Maben
Subject: Re: [WSG] Page Structure

 

On Jun 28, 2007, at 8:47 AM, Tony Crockford wrote:





Why is the company logo and strap line the most important thing on every page
of a web site.

 

OR - why does "most important *thing* on the page" have to correspond to
?

 

Take a newspaper: arguably the most important *thing* on the front page is
the name of the paper. Does that correspond to ? I think not: surely 
belongs to the most important news item on the page?

 

Andrew

 

109B SE 4th Av

Gainesville

FL 32601

 

Cell: 352-870-6661

 

http://www.andrewmaben.  net

[EMAIL PROTECTED]  

 

"In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions."





 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*** 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Skip to Content?

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi All,

>From the feedback and very reasonable/realistic points made, I'm going to
make sure that _all_ users will be able to deal with the navigation in a
manner that will suit them (visible and off screen). I don't consider this a
redundancy, but as professionally catering to whoever may open the page
regardless of their physical condition.

Thank you all for your learned comments and help. It's much appreciated.

Kind regards,

Frank


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Little
Sent: Thursday, 28 June, 2007 12:33 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?

> On 28 Jun 2007, at 6:50 PM, Frank Palinkas wrote:
>
> > If the global site navigation on a page is marked up below the
> > content...
>
> Hang on - if your nav is *below* the content, wouldn't the link be
> better as 'skip to navigation'?


I think in this case it would be a good idea to have both links, e.g.
something like:


 Skip to content | Skip
to navigation


Hiding the links as suggested via positioning.

David



-- 
David Little

-e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-w: www.littled.net


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Skip to Content?

[Frank Palinkas]

Thanks David, much appreciate your feedback. That's exactly what I thought,
but I'm not inclined to assume anything.

As you mention, I'm experimenting with moving the "skip to content" link off
screen with a margin-left of -em, leaving its markup intact just above
the floated global nav div.

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Little
Sent: Thursday, 28 June, 2007 11:06 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Skip to Content?

Hi,

I'd still include the link (as the first link on the page) as I
imagine you're still going to have other browser content before you
get to your page's main content (headers, logos etc.) -- unless you
want users of screenreaders to have to sit through that for every
page.

I'd say anything that adds to the usability of a site for any group is
worth including. Also, it's very easy to hide these links from other
"standard" browsers if you so wish, so it's not really much of an
overhead to include them.

Hope this helps,
David

On 28/06/07, Frank Palinkas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Just a quick question and please pardon my ignorance..
>
> If the global site navigation on a page is marked up below the content, and
> then floated left (or right) to bring it visually next to the content in a
> two column manner, is it good practice to include a "Skip to Content" link
as
> part of the navigation markup for users with assistive technologies?
>
> More simply put, given that the global nav is structurally situated below
the
> content, will this preclude the use of a skip to content link?
>
> Looking forward to your comments,
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Frank
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


-- 
David Little

-m: 077 6596 5655
-e: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-w: www.littled.net


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

[WSG] Skip to Content?

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi All,

Just a quick question and please pardon my ignorance..

If the global site navigation on a page is marked up below the content, and
then floated left (or right) to bring it visually next to the content in a
two column manner, is it good practice to include a "Skip to Content" link as
part of the navigation markup for users with assistive technologies? 

More simply put, given that the global nav is structurally situated below the
content, will this preclude the use of a skip to content link?

Looking forward to your comments,

Kind regards,

Frank



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Page Structure

[Frank Palinkas]

FWIW, my take would be:

//



tickets, accommodation & travel packages for major events throughout the uk,
europe and worldwide 

Rugby World Cup 2007 Packages


//

Float the logo id to the right. This will position the h1 topic beneath the
header tagline. Everything is captured within the masthead div.

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tony Crockford
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June, 2007 13:01 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Page Structure

Web Man Walking wrote:
Glory Days
> tickets, accommodation & travel packages for major events
> throughout the uk, europe and worldwide
> 
> 
>   Rugby World Cup 2007 Packages
> 
> 
> Would I penalised for something like this?

My understanding would be that the first h1 is the ones the search 
spiders use to determine what the page is about.  Hence I don't use 
headings for branding.

why do you want to put strapline and company names in hx's?


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] JavaScript gurus - exercise in vanity

[Frank Palinkas]

I'd like to add Gez Lemon to the list please.

Kind regards,

Frank 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Barney Carroll
Sent: Tuesday, 19 June, 2007 12:48 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] JavaScript gurus - exercise in vanity

Cameron Singe wrote:
> I read a book by Christian Heilmann on beginning javascript, I would 
> rate him as a guru

Definitely. FYI Lars, http://domscripting.com/ is Christian's hub site. 
Jeremy Keith should also be above most of these people as popular and 
populist (just under PPK, possibly) - http://adactio.com/articles/.

And seeing as we might as well get back on topic, PPK and Christian 
Heilmann are brilliant standards advocates and accessibility gurus as well.


Regards,
Barney


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] WCAG Samurai Errata

[Frank Palinkas]

Thanks Jason,

That's what I'm looking for. Also, I think Gez Lemon's comment about letting
a user set their own access keys makes a lot of sense to me.

Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jason Turnbull
Sent: Friday, 08 June, 2007 9:53 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] WCAG Samurai Errata

Matthew Pennell wrote:
>> I think it's been shown that just about all keys interfere with someone's
shortcuts, 
>> whether it's a browser, screenreader, foreign characters, or whatever.

Frank Palinkas wrote:
> Interesting. Please tell me where this info is shown? I'd like to know
more.

Some Info:
http://www.wats.ca/show.php?contentid=32 
http://www.wats.ca/show.php?contentid=43
http://juicystudio.com/article/firefox2-accesskeys.php

Regards
Jason



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] WCAG Samurai Errata

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Matthew,

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

/* So what would happen on a page with 15 links above the form? Presumably a
keyboard user would tab through the first 10, then just down to the form,
through that, and then back to the last 5, then move onto any links after the
form. Not exactly expected behaviour. */

 

I always add a Skip Navigation button directly after the h1 topic enabling a
user to bypass both global and internal page links. This moves the focus to
the first subtopic. I use 11 as a starting guide, not as a rule.

 

/* I think it's been shown that just about all keys interfere with someone's
shortcuts, whether it's a browser, screenreader, foreign characters, or
whatever. */

 

Interesting. Please tell me where this info is shown? I'd like to know more.

 

Kind regards,

Frank

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matthew Pennell
Sent: Friday, 08 June, 2007 8:26 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] WCAG Samurai Errata

 

On 08/06/07, Frank Palinkas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

/* Guideline 9.4: Do not attempt to create your own tab order. That
is a job for a browser and adaptive technology. */

When and where needed (in web forms for instance), I create a
tabindex order starting with the number 11 and proceed from there. This
usually bypasses the generic built-in browser tab order.


So what would happen on a page with 15 links above the form? Presumably a
keyboard user would tab through the first 10, then just down to the form,
through that, and then back to the last 5, then move onto any links after the
form. Not exactly expected behaviour. 

 

/* Guideline 9.5: Don't provide your own keyboard shortcuts. That is
a job for a browser or adaptive technology. */

I provide keyboard shortcuts for global navigation situated on each
web page. I cross-browser test to make sure each character I'm using for the
Alt + key shortcut doesn't interfere with generic browser shortcuts.

I think it's been shown that just about all keys interfere with someone's
shortcuts, whether it's a browser, screenreader, foreign characters, or
whatever. 

Matthew.


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] WCAG Samurai Errata

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Kane,

 

If it’s of help:

 

/* Guideline 9.4: Do not attempt to create your own tab order. That is a job
for a browser and adaptive technology. */

When and where needed (in web forms for instance), I create a tabindex order
starting with the number 11 and proceed from there. This usually bypasses the
generic built-in browser tab order.

 

/* Guideline 9.5: Don’t provide your own keyboard shortcuts. That is a job
for a browser or adaptive technology. */

I provide keyboard shortcuts for global navigation situated on each web page.
I cross-browser test to make sure each character I’m using for the Alt + key
shortcut doesn’t interfere with generic browser shortcuts.

 

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help

W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert

M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   

Senior Technical Communicator 

Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 

website: http://frank.helpware.net 
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Member: 

Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) 

Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.)

Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) 

Supergroup Trading Ltd. 
Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa 
website: http://www.supergroup.co.za

Work:   +27 011 523 4931 
Home:   +27 011 455 5287 
Fax:+27 011 455 3112 
Mobile: +27 074 109 1908


 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kane Tapping
Sent: Friday, 08 June, 2007 7:23 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] WCAG Samurai Errata

 



Hi,

I have been reading with interest the WCAG Samurai Errata (
http://wcagsamurai.org/errata/intro.html ) and am suprised to have not found
it discussed on WSG as of yet. 

It raises many discussion points two of which mirror my own personal
opinion... 

Guideline 9.4: Do not attempt to create your own tab order. That is a job for
a browser and adaptive technology. 
Guideline 9.5: Don’t provide your own keyboard shortcuts. That is a job for a
browser or adaptive technology.

I have always found these priority three guidelines to be counter productive
because they often conflict with the built-in navigation controls from
browsers and screen readers making the website harder to use by those you are
trying to help by following the guidelines. 

What is your opinion on the errata ? 

Kind Regards,

Kane Tapping
Web Standards Developer
Web and Content Management Services
Griffith University. 4111. Australia.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
Phone: +61 (0)7 3735 7630 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Michael,

Not sure if this will help you, but on occasion I've been presented with .pdf
files to convert to (x)html for web-based tech docs. I do this manually by
creating templates in the Visual Studio 2005 markup source code editors, and
then copy and paste the content from the .pdf's. This way I have complete
control over the structure, presentation and behavior of the resulting web
doc.

This is ok if the .pdf's haven't been secured by a user name and password. If
they have, then I'm outta luck as the copy/paste routine won't work.
Personally, I wouldn't trust any .pdf to .html conversion app. If they exist,
I feel it would create more work than what I already have to do in this
scenario.

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 

website: http://frank.helpware.net 
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Member: 
Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) 
Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.)
Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) 

Supergroup Trading Ltd. 
Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa 
website: http://www.supergroup.co.za

Work:   +27 011 523 4931 
Home:   +27 011 455 5287 
Fax:    +27 011 455 3112 
Mobile: +27 074 109 1908


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael MD
Sent: Friday, 08 June, 2007 6:41 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Use of PDFs - Accessibility issues



> Here is the thread that discussed making PDFs accessible:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/wsg@webstandardsgroup.org/msg28067.html
>
> The effort involved in creating the PDFs in an accessible format will be
> significant.
>
> Handheld users frequently avoid opening PDFs since they are often a large
> file size - bandwidth and cost being the limiting factors here.


how many mobile phone can read pdf? .. I suspect not many yet  ... (I have 
yet to see one which can)

btw does anyone know of anything that can export html (even if it is crap 
html) from a pdf ?

(apart from Acrobat Pro itself  - I can't justify spending that sort of 
money for just the occasional attempt to extract useful content from that 
occasasional pdf sent by clueless "media publicists" which would otherwise 
just be deleted)





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?

[Frank Palinkas]

> but that doesn't mean that the resulting document actually makes any sense
whatsoever...

Thank you Patrick. Especially to those using assistive devices.

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 

website: http://frank.helpware.net 
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Member: 
Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) 
Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.)
Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) 

Supergroup Trading Ltd. 
Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa 
website: http://www.supergroup.co.za

Work:   +27 011 523 4931 
Home:   +27 011 455 5287 
Fax:    +27 011 455 3112 
Mobile: +27 074 109 1908



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Lauke
Sent: Tuesday, 05 June, 2007 10:06 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Re: Use of Fieldsets other than in form?

> Nick Gleitzman

> Forgot this point: valid doesn't mean correct, or sensible. 
> It's really 
> easy to write code that validates, but which is semantic rubbish. The 
> Validator is a great tool for checking the correctness of markup, but 
> it can't interpret context - it's just a dumb piece of software.

Validation is akin to a word processor's spellchecker: it can tell you if you
spelt everything correctly, but that doesn't mean that the resulting document
actually makes any sense whatsoever...

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
External Relations Division
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY  


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Content Management issue ?

[Frank Palinkas]

Thanks Schalk!

Please keep us informed?

Frank


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Schalk Neethling
Sent: Wednesday, 30 May, 2007 11:36 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Content Management issue ?

Hey there All,

This seems to be a huge problem on the web today. I am in the process of 
building a CMS that will be from the ground up built to standards 
compliant and accessible. Also, the big issue is to ensure that whatever 
the CMS outputs abides by the same rules.

The project is being developed as an open source project so anyone that 
wishes to know more and want to join in and help in the building of the 
CMS is more then welcome. It is being hosted on 
code.google.com/p/alliedbridge

Kind Regards
Schalk

Nick Roper wrote:
> Hi Mark,
>
> Have you looked at Karova?
>
> www.karova.com
>
> It is XML/XSLT based, so that may be an issue if you want a PHP based 
> solution, but you can get in and edit the XSLTs and of course CSS, so 
> it is pretty flexible and compliant. Not sure about the Protx support. 
> One thing to be aware of is that it is a hosted solution, and not 
> available to install on your own server as far as I know.
>
> It has been used for some large clients such as World Wildlife Fund 
> (not our client unfortunately), and we used it to build a store at the 
> following URL if you want a look:
>
> http://retailstore.haptic.co.uk
>
> I think they were working on a PHP-based version, and are working on 
> more friendly URLs - so might be worth a look.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nick
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi John and Mike,

Just a question please?

For simple forms, I really like the technique of separating Required from
Optional fields. Instead of dividing the form into two fieldsets
(Required/Optional) would it be semantically/accessibly correct to instead
use a header element (for example h4) to separate/identify the two areas?
This would keep the form contained within one fieldset, generic to the form's
identity? 

For example:

///



Enquiry Form 


Required Fields:


Subject: Select a subject.

Select
Option 1
Option 2
Option 3


Name: Enter your full name.


Email: Enter your email address.


Message: Enter your message.



Optional Fields:


Updates: Check this box to receive updates.










Kind regards,

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike at Green-Beast.com
Sent: Monday, 28 May, 2007 4:25 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] The use of asterisks in forms to indicate required fields

John Faulds wrote:

> But sometimes at least one phone number might
> be required but others are optional (e.g. mobile,
> home, fax etc) - doesn't seem as logical to split
> your phone number fields up into different
> groupings.

Great point, John. That's a conundrum for sure. And it will happen, the 
frequency thereof is probably in proportion to a form's complexity. In the 
example you illustrate it might be okay to stick to the required/optional 
thing, like so.

Enter contact info in the form below.

fieldset
legend: required
label/input: name
label/input: email
label/input: phone

fieldset
legend: optional
label/input: fax
label/inout: web

But I can definitely see instances where that just woudn't do and the 
logical groupings wouldn't allow such an easy solution. That's when we'd 
have to revisit one of the other methods we've been comtemplating I suppose, 
treating each occurence independantly unless a one-size-fits-all solution is 
found. A likely candidate might be putting the word in the in the label.

fieldset
legend: foo stuff
label/input: required foo one
label/input: optional foo two
label/input: required foo red
label/input: optional foo blue

:-)

Cheers.
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Mocking up web interfaces

[Frank Palinkas]

VS 2005: HTML, CSS, etc. source code editors.

- I'm a technical writer/designer dealing mostly with unmanaged markup,
presentation and behavior code.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael MD
Sent: Thursday, 24 May, 2007 10:33 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Mocking up web interfaces

>
> Notepad.
> Best,

editpad

 - but I'm a developer normally dealing with code rather than visual 
design - 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question

[Frank Palinkas]

Hi Mike,

I think there is a misunderstanding here. Removing the onclick event handler
from the markup is all that is being done, thereby the unobtrusive value of
the exercise. The DOM/JavaScript does not "insert" any links. The link
remains intact within the markup as it should be. It merely uses the rel
attribute of the  element as a trigger to launch the new window, as
would the onclick event handler attribute if it was placed within the 
element.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 10 May, 2007 15:06 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question

Unfortunately, using JavaScript to insert such links is no more than a fudge
- you cannot rely on JavaScript being turned off in a screen-reader users
browser, and this cannot be regarded as 'unobtrusive', or even 'progressive
enhancement' as it is a fundamental change in behaviour.

Mike 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frank Palinkas
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:35 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
> 
> If I read you right, sure it does. You can use unobtrusive 
> DOM/JavaScript to
> replace the onclick event handler in the (x)html markup with 
> a rel attribute
> in the  element. If the DOM/JavaScript is turned off, 
> the page will
> open through the link supplied as normal in a full, new 
> window. Also, an
> assistive device may read the  element's title 
> attribute (if employed)
> to identify where the link will take them to if chosen. 
> 
> You can find more info on the use of unobtrusive 
> DOM/JavaScript in Jeremy
> Keith's book, "DOM Scripting: Web Design with JavaScript and 
> the Document
> Object Model", and James Edwards and Cameron Adams book "The 
> JavaScript
> Anthology - 101 Tips, Tricks and Hacks". You can check Amazon 
> for reviews,
> etc. on them.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Frank M. Palinkas
> Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
> W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
> M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
> Senior Technical Communicator 
> Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 
> 
> website: http://frank.helpware.net 
> email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  
> Member: 
> Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) 
> Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.)
> Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) 
> 
> Supergroup Trading Ltd. 
> Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa 
> website: http://www.supergroup.co.za
> 
> Work:   +27 011 523 4931 
> Home:   +27 011 455 5287 
> Fax:    +27 011 455 3112 
> Mobile: +27 074 109 1908
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, 10 May, 2007 12:11 PM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
> 
>  
> I believe what Jermayn is asking to keep the web standards 
> intact, without
> opening a new window, as accessibility doesnt allow us to 
> open pages in new
> window.
> 
> suggestions ?
> 
> regards
> -P
> 
> Original Message:
> -
> From: Nirmal Kumar [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:21:43 +0530
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question
> 
> 
> Hi,
> You can use this code to open the pdf in a new window ...
>click
> here
> 
> Thanks
> 
> On 5/9/07, Jermayn Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi group,
> > This may only relate to Western Australian people but 
> someone else  may
> > know...
> >
> > I have a page that has links to a pdf and the client wanted to know
> > whether it can be linked to a new window or not. They dont 
> really care
> > about best practises etc but rather what the state Internet 
> guidlines
> > are. I have looked through the 107 page doco but cannot 
> find anything.
> >
> > Thanks for you rhelp
> > Jermayn
> >
> >
> >
> **
> **
> 
> > The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance 
> Commission of
> > Weste

RE: [WSG] wa state guidlines question

[Frank Palinkas]

If I read you right, sure it does. You can use unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript to
replace the onclick event handler in the (x)html markup with a rel attribute
in the  element. If the DOM/JavaScript is turned off, the page will
open through the link supplied as normal in a full, new window. Also, an
assistive device may read the  element's title attribute (if employed)
to identify where the link will take them to if chosen. 

You can find more info on the use of unobtrusive DOM/JavaScript in Jeremy
Keith's book, "DOM Scripting: Web Design with JavaScript and the Document
Object Model", and James Edwards and Cameron Adams book "The JavaScript
Anthology - 101 Tips, Tricks and Hacks". You can check Amazon for reviews,
etc. on them.

Hope this helps,

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
W3C HTML Working Group (H.T.M.L.W.G.) - Invited Expert
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+   
Senior Technical Communicator 
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer 

website: http://frank.helpware.net 
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
Member: 
Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.) 
Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.)
Web Standards Group (W.S.G.) 

Supergroup Trading Ltd. 
Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa 
website: http://www.supergroup.co.za

Work:   +27 011 523 4931 
Home:   +27 011 455 5287 
Fax:    +27 011 455 3112 
Mobile: +27 074 109 1908


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 10 May, 2007 12:11 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question

 
I believe what Jermayn is asking to keep the web standards intact, without
opening a new window, as accessibility doesnt allow us to open pages in new
window.

suggestions ?

regards
-P

Original Message:
-
From: Nirmal Kumar [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu, 10 May 2007 14:21:43 +0530
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] wa state guidlines question


Hi,
You can use this code to open the pdf in a new window ...
   click
here

Thanks

On 5/9/07, Jermayn Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi group,
> This may only relate to Western Australian people but someone else  may
> know...
>
> I have a page that has links to a pdf and the client wanted to know
> whether it can be linked to a new window or not. They dont really care
> about best practises etc but rather what the state Internet guidlines
> are. I have looked through the 107 page doco but cannot find anything.
>
> Thanks for you rhelp
> Jermayn
>
>
>


> The above message has been scanned and meets the Insurance Commission of
> Western Australia's Email security policy requirements for outbound
> transmission.
>
> This email (facsimile) and any attachments may be confidential and
> privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
> that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this email
> (facsimile) is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email
> (facsimile) in error please contact the Insurance Commission.
>
> Web: www.icwa.wa.gov.au
> Phone: +61 08 9264 
>
>
>

*
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***


mail2web LIVE - Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology -
http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*

RE: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...

[Frank Palinkas]

If I may add one other point that hasn't been touched on yet (that I'm aware
of)...

IMHO, if the elimination of either the table Column coordinate or Row
coordinate takes place, it will break the semantic nature of the table
element. If you continue to use the table element with one coordinate and its
corresponding data entries, the table element is then only being used for
presentational purposes, thus the need for an appropriate semantic method,
i.e. a definition list or other. 

I also use table attributes, especially to enhance assistive device
identification and transfer of cognitive data from the table structure to the
user.

Kind regards,

Frank M. Palinkas
Microsoft M.V.P. - Windows Help
M.C.P., M.C.T., M.C.S.E., M.C.D.B.A., A+
Senior Technical Communicator
Web Standards & Accessibility Designer  
 
website: http://frank.helpware.net  
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
Member:  
Society for Technical Communications (S.T.C.)  
Guild of Accessible Web Designers (G.A.W.D.S.)
Web Standards Group (W.S.G.)  
 
super group trading ltd.  
Sandhurst, Gauteng, South Africa  
website: http://www.supergroup.co.za 

Work:   +27 011 523 4931  
Home:   +27 011 455 5287  
Fax:+27 011 455 3112  
Mobile: +27 074 109 1908 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz
Sent: Thursday, 08 March, 2007 20:25 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...

Nick Fitzsimons wrote:
> On 8 Mar 2007, at 16:37:15, Thierry Koblentz wrote:
>> But this definition applies to more than just table elements,
>> isn't? In the
>> above, we could replace the words "first column" with "dt" and
>> "second column" with "dd" and it would make as much sense...

> On the other hand, I personally believe that the use of a dl in this
> example would make no *semantic* sense. After all, given the term
> "President", the definition of that term would be something like "The
> individual in charge of the organisation". "John Smith" simply cannot
> be seen as a *definition* of the term "President", but is rather the
> personal name of that entity which is *denoted* by the term
> "President".
> If it was called a "denotation list", then fair enough; but it's a
> definition list, for grouping terms with their definitions (whatever
> vague examples may be given in the standard).

I see your point, but I'm not sure I agree as "definition" is often replaced
by "description" which leaves more room for interpretation.
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.3
The two examples given would relate to the "definition" concept you point
out, but what about:

Another application of DL, for example, is for marking up dialogues, with
each DT naming a speaker, and each DD containing his or her words.

In this case, the words in the DDs are *not* the definition of the speakers,
it's even far from that...

> Note also that all the elements and attributes of the HTML table
> model that promote accessibility (summary, caption, axis, headers,
> scope, abbr) are absent when a list of some kind is used. Still, I've
> never come across anybody other than myself who uses them anyway :-(

I don't think simple tables call for all the attributes in the box though.
But anyway, talking about accessibility, marking up the given example with
"accessible" table markup, would - imho - make screenreader users listen to
information (mostly related to the table itself, not its content) they
wouldn't even need to understand the data if it was marked up as a simple DL
for example.

---
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...

[Frank Palinkas]

FWIW, my interpretation of what constitutes tabular data relies on the
meaning of the data being directly associated to its grid coordinates, i.e.
the intersection of a column and row. The column coordinate + the row
coordinate gives specific meaning to the data located at the intersection of
these items.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz
Sent: Thursday, 08 March, 2007 9:13 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Talking about tabular data...

Paul Novitski wrote:
> At 3/6/2007 05:51 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:
>>  President..John Smith
>>  Vice-president.Janet Jones
>>
>> In other words, the items in the two columns line up horizontally,
>> and the cell on the left is filled out with dots.
>> 

> The example you present here is clearly two-column tabular data
> (whether marked up as a table or not).
> We live in that golden universe where markup and presentation are
> very (never completely) separate.  The question of whether your table
> of officers is tabular data (duh) is independent of how it's
> presented.
> Is anyone actually suggesting that the presence or
> absence of the dots influences the determination of the semantic
> structure of the information?

Forget about how it should be marked up or presented, the "issue" is about
*defining* what tabular data is.
What's your definition of tabular data? Actually, what if there was only one
row for our example?
Would you consider marking up the following with a table?

President..John Smith

What for you makes a list of "name/value" pairs tabular data?

---
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***