Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
Ok so Rogier says that a en esoteric non-standard version of Firefox gives a MINOR problem in navigaton on our help page.It MIGHT possibly affect perhaps 1 or 2 users out of more than100,000 users. There is no listing of anyone using debian in our OS stats. Which means it's only in the *Other listing. The problem these few users might see doesn't prevent them seeing the site, just makes ONE fo the menu drop downs a LITTLE difficult to use. They can still navigate the site. How much development time do you think that justifies? A day? 2 days? You think we should go get a machine, install debian, and run the problem down? Or just move on to more important problems? Until Rogier mentioned debian I had never even heard of it nor had anyone else I know. It's a NON-ISSUE IF you want to bother with it, good luck to you. But I've already wasted more time than its worth dealing with these emails. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Webmaster, Bluegrass Australia http://bluegrass.org.au Pacific Bluegrass Network - Not a preacher, not an expert but a fan - speaking from the heart. Talking dog on http://Bluegrasscountry.org - We are a Bluegrass Unlimited Reporting Program From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson Sent: Friday, 26 October 2007 4:10 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Come off it. Under no circumstance has it ever cost us more to do it right than to do it poorly; shoddy workmanship always results in higher costs. If it is costing you too much to do it right, you are doing more than just your coding wrong. * *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
I object to this notion that it's shoddy for me to ignore an insignificant number of users. And I resent your assertion that it is. Someone produces a version of some browser and it exists, and just because it exists, somewhere in the world, I'm being shoddy if I don't buy a machine to install that OS, learn about how it works, and then spend however long it takes to make special tweaks so a minor problem goes away for the 1 or 2 people that MIGHT possibly experience the problem? The people who made debian have produced shoddy work. Why do you accuse me of being shoddy?? It's THEM who are shoddy not me. No wonder no one uses it here. Good lord I'm glad you don't run my development process. Let bloody debian fix their problem! Why should I have to spend MY time fixing things because they don't get it right??? This page works fine on every browser and OS we have in our stats.We fixed the problem for those browsers a long time ago and moved on. If you cant see that there has to be some limit to the amount of time you can spend on a project tracking down every last tweak and quirk regardless of whether there are any affected users or not you are not fit to manage a commercial development operation. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com http://afpwebworks.com/ Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson Sent: Friday, 26 October 2007 4:10 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Come off it. Under no circumstance has it ever cost us more to do it right than to do it poorly; shoddy workmanship always results in higher costs. If it is costing you too much to do it right, you are doing more than just your coding wrong. On 10/25/07, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for your information, Rogier. Doesn't change my thinking though. Firefox with the Firefox logo works how it's supposed to, so there is a difference between the debian thing and the 'real' Firefox. And this difference isn't one we care about. First of all, if there are any users in that category, there isn't more than a handful. Secondly, they don't have to go to this page to use the site. This is separate 'help' information. Thirdly anyone who experiences the problem we were trying to solve can still navigate the site. So yes, it would be good to fix it. But there are far more pressing issues for us to work on and if any user finds they are experiencing the problem this was about, we don't care now, since all the users reflected in our site stats are not experiencing the problem. Cost/benefit once again. Ideally, we'd like the site to have no issues at all. But out of 100,000 users, 1 or 2 (at most!) might not be able to use the drop down menu to navigate out of the self-running demonstration and have to use the back button instead.If debian ever gets to the point in Australia where our users start using it, the cost/benefit ratio might change, at which time we might revisit the decision to move on to other issues. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rogier Schoenmaker Sent: Friday, 26 October 2007 5:03 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Mike, Just for your information Iceweasel IS firefox, just with another name (build from the firefox source by the debian team). Because of those stupid American patent laws you can't use a name of software without a logo and because the logo is copyrighted, debian doesn't wants it in their O.S. fyi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceweasel I understand that you have to prioritize how your site works with O.S.' es and browsers, but if you decide to use a plugin like flash you should go for it completely or don't. It's out of the question that users can't navigate your site, just because of some fancy flash. But that's my 2 cents. Rogier. On 25/10/2007, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think its wonderful how, every time I post something to this list, people will rush to tell me how we ought to be spending our scarce development dollars. Christian Montoya, why do you assume that we're so dumb we don't know anything about our customers? We have quite a large number of Firefox customers, but if they're using Firefox, the site works fine. I know because I've tested it in Firefox. I develop with Firefox. My client's testing regime includes Firefox. There were several people on this list who tested it in Firefox and didn't report any
RE: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
I think its wonderful how, every time I post something to this list, people will rush to tell me how we ought to be spending our scarce development dollars. Christian Montoya, why do you assume that we're so dumb we don't know anything about our customers? We have quite a large number of Firefox customers, but if they're using Firefox, the site works fine. I know because I've tested it in Firefox. I develop with Firefox. My client's testing regime includes Firefox. There were several people on this list who tested it in Firefox and didn't report any problems. The issue was raised by Roger who said there was a small problem with Firefox (IceWeasel) for debian whatever that is, not Firefox.You accuse us of making poor assumptions when that's indeed what you did in your patronising way. It might be true in big shops that there are unlimited development dollars sufficient to allocate teams of people to iron out every last little issue, but in small shops like mine (and they don't come smaller than my business!!) there isn't unlimited time available. Here's a lesson in business for some of you. There is a limited supply of time and dollars, and most jobs have a deadline. If you're running a development shop for profit, there often comes a time when you have to accept there will be issues with your output, and as lon gas it doesn't impact unduly on your customers sometimes you have to just let the issues remain in order to run the business. I can't afford to be spending time tracking down every last problem. And my client wont pay me to either. We make some compromise decisions along the way.We will not even be testing our site in the browsers mentioned by Roger: Firefox (IceWeasel) for debian, or Epiphany (whatever the hell they are). I've never heard of those browsers and I surely doubt many of my client's customers have either.The site works how we want it to in the major environments, and in the others it's still usable, if a little quirky. That's where it's gonna stop while we move on to more important issues like rebuilding the shopping cart that is showing signs of stress with the volumes we're getting, and redesigning the database which no longer copes with the range of products we have to accommodate. Those of you who think the minimum standard is perfection, good for you. Well done, I salute you. I wish I had your set of deadlines and funding to be able to do the same. Our standard is slightly lower at 'as good as we can get it within the time and money allowed.' Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: Wednesday, 24 October 2007 6:12 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Kear Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 6:14 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Since we are likely to have perhaps 1 or 2 users only using any of those browsers, and by far the vast majority of our users are using WindowsXP with IE6 or IE7 (remember this is not a IT related site - our customers are tshirt retailers and advertising agencies) I've decided the cost/benefit of fixing that isn't worth it. I work with a 6 non-techie business types who are all involved in advertising/licensing related functions and they all use Firefox by choice. Have you ever asked your users what they actually use? Do you have any stats on browsers (Google analytics will tell you this)? If not, you are just making a poor assumption. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
Thanks for your information, Rogier. Doesn't change my thinking though. Firefox with the Firefox logo works how it's supposed to, so there is a difference between the debian thing and the 'real' Firefox. And this difference isn't one we care about. First of all, if there are any users in that category, there isn't more than a handful. Secondly, they don't have to go to this page to use the site. This is separate 'help' information. Thirdly anyone who experiences the problem we were trying to solve can still navigate the site. So yes, it would be good to fix it. But there are far more pressing issues for us to work on and if any user finds they are experiencing the problem this was about, we don't care now, since all the users reflected in our site stats are not experiencing the problem. Cost/benefit once again. Ideally, we'd like the site to have no issues at all. But out of 100,000 users, 1 or 2 (at most!) might not be able to use the drop down menu to navigate out of the self-running demonstration and have to use the back button instead.If debian ever gets to the point in Australia where our users start using it, the cost/benefit ratio might change, at which time we might revisit the decision to move on to other issues. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rogier Schoenmaker Sent: Friday, 26 October 2007 5:03 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Mike, Just for your information Iceweasel IS firefox, just with another name (build from the firefox source by the debian team). Because of those stupid American patent laws you can't use a name of software without a logo and because the logo is copyrighted, debian doesn't wants it in their O.S. fyi: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceweasel I understand that you have to prioritize how your site works with O.S.' es and browsers, but if you decide to use a plugin like flash you should go for it completely or don't. It's out of the question that users can't navigate your site, just because of some fancy flash. But that's my 2 cents. Rogier. On 25/10/2007, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think its wonderful how, every time I post something to this list, people will rush to tell me how we ought to be spending our scarce development dollars. Christian Montoya, why do you assume that we're so dumb we don't know anything about our customers? We have quite a large number of Firefox customers, but if they're using Firefox, the site works fine. I know because I've tested it in Firefox. I develop with Firefox. My client's testing regime includes Firefox. There were several people on this list who tested it in Firefox and didn't report any problems. The issue was raised by Roger who said there was a small problem with Firefox (IceWeasel) for debian whatever that is, not Firefox.You accuse us of making poor assumptions when that's indeed what you did in your patronising way. It might be true in big shops that there are unlimited development dollars sufficient to allocate teams of people to iron out every last little issue, but in small shops like mine (and they don't come smaller than my business!!) there isn't unlimited time available. Here's a lesson in business for some of you. There is a limited supply of time and dollars, and most jobs have a deadline. If you're running a development shop for profit, there often comes a time when you have to accept there will be issues with your output, and as lon gas it doesn't impact unduly on your customers sometimes you have to just let the issues remain in order to run the business. I can't afford to be spending time tracking down every last problem. And my client wont pay me to either. We make some compromise decisions along the way.We will not even be testing our site in the browsers mentioned by Roger: Firefox (IceWeasel) for debian, or Epiphany (whatever the hell they are). I've never heard of those browsers and I surely doubt many of my client's customers have either.The site works how we want it to in the major environments, and in the others it's still usable, if a little quirky. That's where it's gonna stop while we move on to more important issues like rebuilding the shopping cart that is showing signs of stress with the volumes we're getting, and redesigning the database which no longer copes with the range of products we have to accommodate. Those of you who think the minimum standard is perfection, good for you. Well done, I salute you. I wish I had your set of deadlines and funding to be able to do the same. Our standard is slightly lower at 'as good as we can get it within the time and money allowed
RE: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
Thanks Rogier, I appreciate your help. Since we are likely to have perhaps 1 or 2 users only using any of those browsers, and by far the vast majority of our users are using WindowsXP with IE6 or IE7 (remember this is not a IT related site - our customers are tshirt retailers and advertising agencies) I've decided the cost/benefit of fixing that isn't worth it. The few users inconvenienced by the issue can just use the back button or click on one of the top menu items and get the drop downs from there. Sorry for those people, but them's the breaks. Sometimes you have problems you know are there, but just simply aren't high enough in the priorities to get fixed. I have several other deadlines with this client to meet, and they're far more important than this one. But you're right, Rogier, it ought to be fixed for those users, but it's not going to be unless I have a slow day sometime. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rogier Schoenmaker Sent: Tuesday, 23 October 2007 4:55 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Hello, Just so you know, there's no dropdown shown in Firefox (IceWeasel) for debian, neither for Epiphany and Konquerer doesn't seem to work with flash. Hope it's useful. Regards, Rogier Schoenmaker. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
Nick I'm away from my Mac machine for a couple of weeks .. Do you think you (or someone else with a mac) could do me a favour and have a look at the page in question and tell me if the problem is fixed or not on your mac? It's not all that critical for us, because Macs aren't very big amongst our customers - a very small proportion - but if I can set it so it works nice for them so much the better. The page is http://newwaves.com.au/nw/mockingupdemo.cfmIt'll only take a few seconds to determine if the menu drop down under Stock service shows several items or none. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com http://afpwebworks.com/ Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Cowie Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2007 1:57 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash On 16/10/2007, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This has fixed the problem for IE6 and Firefox on Windows, so I'm assuming it's fixed for most of our target browsers. Probably not. If your target OSes other than windows, the flash plugin works quite differently on OsX and *nix. I was experimenting with HTML over flash, and while param name=wmode value=transparent / works great on Windows. The flash plugin could not get the order right for OsX or *nix, no matter what I tried (source order, z-index etc). It was purely random 50% of the time the flash would appear over the HTML and the other 50% of the time the HTML would appear over the flash file. I was using it on a footer and could just scroll up and down the page a few times to get different results. So you need to check your menu system on one of those OSes. Just rollover the menu a few times and see what happens. -- Nick Cowie http://nickcowie.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
Thanks for your help Nick, and all the others who helped me with this. This demo file is a rush job, done at a distance - the flash designer is a relative of the client and lives in China, and doesn't understand any English. Makes it difficult. So there are a number of design issues on this site I just accept and try to make the best of it - making it work as well as I can. The client himself has a very clear ides of what he wants, and generally is pretty right about it, but my role is basically to just make it work, rather than provide design advice. There are quite a few things I'd do differently if I had my druthers. I inherited quite a lot of code issues too when I took over the site, and bit by bit I'm rebuilding the site and modernising the code. But like most sites, the client isn't going to rebuild the site that's working. Not as well as it might perhaps, but it's working. Thanks for your help everyone. As always this list has proved knowledgeable and helpful. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com http://afpwebworks.com/ Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Cowie Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2007 8:06 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Michael No problems with flash and the menu on my Mac OsX 10.4.9 with FF, Safari or Opera Other than issues above, menu typeface is tiny in both FF and Opera, increasing font size to read them does do damage to the menus with FF, still usable though. Flickering is also visible for me with Safari 2.0.4 ps that flash movie took ages to download. should be split into smaller pieces that get called as movie progresses. Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
Gday Nate, Thanks for your comments. The reason for using wmode was to fix the problem that existed before. All I wanted was to make sure the dhtml drop down menu came down on top of the flash movie not underneath it. Is that not the best way ? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com http://afpwebworks.com/ Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of nate hanna Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2007 12:59 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash Michael, No problems with flash and the menu on my Mac OSX 10.4.10 with FF, and Safari 419.x (Tiger version (not the new beta)). Ditto on the font being too small on the drop-down menu (see the attachment); and with the movie taking too long to download (you may want to either break the movie up into smaller movies or use the bandwidth profile in flash to help you spread out the download across multiple frames ( i.e. download a little up front and then continue the download as needed later so the user doesn't have to wait as long). As for the flickering that people are seeing in Safari... here is a helpful link from Adobe's CSS Advisor: Fixing http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/communityengine/index.cfm?event=showdetailspr oductId=1postId=1801 Safari's wmode flicker. Lastly, what was your reasoning for choosing wmode='transparent' typically you only want to do that if you need to reveal something behind flash within the HTML. Transparent wmode is NOT supported by Linux and has issues with some Macintosh browsers ( i.e. Safari). If you don't need to reveal anything under flash it's better to use wmode='opaque'. Furthermore, there are accessibility concerns when using wmode (i.e. flash becomes invisible to screen readers when wmode is set; see the following two links: * http://dynamicflash.com/2006/10/flash-accessibility-and-wmode/ * http://justin.everett-church.com/index.php/2006/02/23/wmode-woes/ Best Regards, Nate On 10/17/07, Nick Cowie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael No problems with flash and the menu on my Mac OsX 10.4.9 with FF, Safari or Opera Other than issues above, menu typeface is tiny in both FF and Opera, increasing font size to read them does do damage to the menus with FF, still usable though. Flickering is also visible for me with Safari 2.0.4 ps that flash movie took ages to download. should be split into smaller pieces that get called as movie progresses. Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
Thanks Michael and Kit, setting the wmode did the trick. Happily I didn't even need to go back to the flash programmer (who's in China and we have a language issue whenever we try to make a change - it's a long story but suffice to say I'm dealing with the designer in China like it or not!) Anyway for those who are following along at home, all I had to do was change the html code where it embeds the flash object in the page to add 'wmode','transparent' to the AC_FL_RunContent function parameters and param name=wmode value=transparent / to the object tag parameters. This has fixed the problem for IE6 and Firefox on Windows, so I'm assuming it's fixed for most of our target browsers. Thanks again for your help folks. Helped out a poor old developer-turned-designer-by-force once again. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] How to make DHML cover flash
I have a page where there are some dhtml menus with drop downs across the
top of the page, and a large flash object in the body of one of the pages.
However the drop-down menu items are going underneath the flash object so
they can't be clicked on. I thought I should just put the flash into a
div with a z-index lower than the z-index of the drop down list item, but
that doesn't seem to work.Can anyone please tell me how I ought to deal
with this?
Here's what I have:
In the menus:
style
.dropmenudiv {
z-index : 800;
}
/style
ul
limenu item 1/li
liMenu item 2/li
Etc
/ul
!--1st drop down menu --
div id=dropmenu1 class=dropmenudiv
a href=/nw/tshirtsstock.cfmT Shirts/a
a href=/nw/polosstock.cfmPolos/a
a href=/nw/singletsstock.cfmSinglets/a
a href=/nw/sweatersstock.cfmSweaters/a
a href=/nw/shortsstock.cfmShorts/a
a href=/nw/rashtopsstock.cfmRash Tops/a
a href=/nw/clearance.cfmClearance/a
/div
And in the flash object:
div style=z-index: 1;
[flash object code here]
/div
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[WSG] It's times like this you remember how far you've come
I have the task of writing the database/dynamic stuff behind an e-commerce site. The design work and static pages are done by a professional design web dev house in Brisbane, and yesterday I got hold of their work. My job now is to merge their stuff with the shopping cart and other components I've written. And it's now I see how far I've come with my web dev techniques. This professional design and web dev house has pages that features the following: 1. every page contains the CSS in text in the head tag, not in a linked style sheet. 2. every page uses tables for layout. 3. all the tables are nested to multiple levels 4. many of the cells or tr tags have styles inline, or they use the bgcolor attribute (not consistently either way) 5. javascript is both typed at the top of the page in the head and also inline, scattered throughout the page. 6. no ULs anywhere. The navigation is also nested tables. 7. there is no doctype. 8. the code is scattered all over the page which tells me this professional dev studio doesn’t look at their code at all, only uses wysiwyg tools. 9. they uploaded the code so EVERYTHING goes in the root level of the site, no folders at all except they did put the images into an images folder, so you have to give them half a point for that. Now I have to work my own stuff into this site, and it's proving much more difficult than with my own work. My own code is organised, it's laid out on the page, commented and indented, I use includes to keep the elements of code separated and easy to find, and I don’t have any nested tables anywhere. In fact I haven’t used tables for anything except tabular data for 18 months now. This code just looks old fashioned and amateur. It's inaccessible, and difficult to maintain. Their page weight is about three times what it needs to be because the javascript and styles are downloaded with each page view, and the nested tables add enormously to the code weight. I resent the fact that this professional design house has accepted cash-type money from my client to design the public side of the web site and produced such a shoddy job. Not only that, I have to work inside it, to make all my work function in this dogs-breakfast of a mess. Now I see how far I have come in my development. My own sites have much smaller pages for the same content, they load faster, they're far more efficient, accessible, and easy to maintain than this pile of spaghetti. Now I have to decide whether I want to spend some of my own time now redoing their work, thereby easing the road for myself down the track, or because I wont get paid for that, just go along with it and work with it. Just venting. Thanks for being patient with me. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.6/709 - Release Date: 3/03/2007 8:12 AM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] BR tag causes odd behaviour ??
Can anyone see why the br / is causing the content to drop down below the adjacent floated div in the page http://afterlifelink.com.au/charges/index.cfm? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Macromedia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] BR tag causes odd behaviour ??
AH!!! Yes .. one of those slap-the-forehead moments. I put that in for
something to do with a form and forgot it also applied to the rest of the
site even when there were no forms.
DER!!
Ok thanks. I'll have to put the br clear:left; in the form another way.
Thanks Philippe!
Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
Macromedia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer
AFP Webworks Pty Ltd
http://afpwebworks.com
Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Philippe Wittenbergh
Sent: Monday, 17 October 2005 4:39 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] BR tag causes odd behaviour ??
On 17 Oct 2005, at 3:24 pm, Michael Kear wrote:
Can anyone see why the br / is causing the content to drop down
below the
adjacent floated div in the page
http://afterlifelink.com.au/charges/index.cfm?
Because that is what you tell it to do. At the bottom of
http://afterlifelink.com.au/css/formstyles.css
br{
clear : left;
}
Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://emps.l-c-n.com/
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RE: [WSG] BR tag causes odd behaviour ??
Thanks, Kenny. I looked at the page in question (which is the only one I've validated at this stage - the others will be validated in the near future) and didn't find any br. Did you find one? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Macromedia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kenny Graham Sent: Monday, 17 October 2005 4:57 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] BR tag causes odd behaviour ?? Because that is what you tell it to do. At the bottom of http://afterlifelink.com.au/css/formstyles.css Ok, maybe I should have looked at the css ;) but still, replace those brs with br /s if you're gonna call it xhtml in the doctype :) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] OT - need a contract designer
Please reply to this off-line because its off topic, but Im posting this here because its the biggest group of designers who understand accessibility that I know .. Sorry if I offend anyone ANYWAY I have been bidding for quite a large project, and have built in a guess for how much Ill need to pay for design. Now the contact has asked for a ball-park figure on how much to have no development at all, but instead a redesign of the home page. I need someone who knows about such things to have a look at what they want and give me a rough ballpark. (Rough ballpark is ok because Ill be adding lots of provisos to my bid and a firm price will need to be worked out later). If they totally redevelop the site, I can go with the figure Ive guessed at. If theyre only going to redesign, I have to have a good idea of how many hours its likely to come to, or it could come back to bite later on. If you want to be involved in this project, likely to happen for real in the next month, please call me in Sydney on 0422-985-585 cos I need a guestimate today. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Macromedia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month
[WSG] Making CSS Buttons active
Im building a site with a navigation button stack in the left column, and Im trying to figure out how to make the whole button active. I know Ive seen it happening somewhere but I cant find an example right now. Can anyone show me how that is achieved? Im not sure if Im making myself clear, but when I style the nested list, I get nice buttons being displayed, and when the cursor hovers over the word in the button, the hover effect works fine, but when the cursor is over the button but not over the word, the hover effect doesnt work. If I have a button thats a lot wider than the word (for example on the home button where the active area of the button is far smaller than sign up now I know Ive seen this with java applets, but I sure dont want to go down that road again I have that on my own site now and its a pain. I felt certain there was a way using nested lists and CSS to make the entire button area clickable. Isnt there? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Macromedia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month
RE: [WSG] Making CSS Buttons active
Thanks for the suggestion. Thats what I thought. Im using display:block, so I must have some other error or something in there. Ill go through the style sheet line by line again and see if I can see whats negating the display:block . Thanks for the suggestion. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Macromedia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 29 July 2005 8:19 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Making CSS Buttons active You need to use the property display:block;. I suggest you see some of the great examples at http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/ - Original Message - From: Michael Kear To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:10 PM Subject: [WSG] Making CSS Buttons active Im building a site with a navigation button stack in the left column, and Im trying to figure out how to make the whole button active. I know Ive seen it happening somewhere but I cant find an example right now. Can anyone show me how that is achieved? Im not sure if Im making myself clear, but when I style the nested list, I get nice buttons being displayed, and when the cursor hovers over the word in the button, the hover effect works fine, but when the cursor is over the button but not over the word, the hover effect doesnt work. If I have a button thats a lot wider than the word (for example on the home button where the active area of the button is far smaller than sign up now I know Ive seen this with java applets, but I sure dont want to go down that road again I have that on my own site now and its a pain. I felt certain there was a way using nested lists and CSS to make the entire button area clickable. Isnt there? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Macromedia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month
[WSG] Need a fresh eye - cite check please
I think I need a fresh eye on this ... I've run out of things to try. Can anyone see why in IE, I have a 10px gap at the right of the container div, but in Firefox it looks how it's supposed to.The image of Patty in the masthead graphic should touch the right border, as should the horizontal rules in the navigation menu and the footer. The site in question is at http://pattyclayton.com/home.cfm And the relevant style sheets are http://pattyclayton.com/css/pattyclayton.css http://pattyclayton.com/css/formstyles.css and http://pattyclayton.com/css/menu.css Any other criticism or comments would be welcome too, if you felt like making them. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Macromedia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Need a fresh eye - site check please
Thanks Nils. I've got it fixed now. You were close, but not exactly correct. It turned out it was not the image itself, but the size of the div containing the image that was the culprit. I needed to set the left and right margins to -10px to override the 10px padding of the containing div. The reason I missed it, was that I had that set correctly in an earlier version of the style sheet, and forgot to copy across the #masthead div to the new style sheet. Thanks a lot for helping - you pointed me at the error I'd been hunting for for hours. And thanks for your comments about the link colours. They were decided by the client and I've advised her to change them. Waiting to see what she says. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Macromedia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nils Kr. Falch Sent: Tuesday, 26 July 2005 11:15 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Need a fresh eye - cite check please On 7/26/05, Michael Kear [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I need a fresh eye on this ... I've run out of things to try. Can anyone see why in IE, I have a 10px gap at the right of the container div, but in Firefox it looks how it's supposed to.The image of Patty in the masthead graphic should touch the right border, as should the horizontal rules in the navigation menu and the footer. It is probably the width of the image in the masthead that is causing the problem. The container is 660px wide whereas the image has a set width of 670. Reducing the image width or increasing the container width seems to fix the gap problem, Any other criticism or comments would be welcome too, if you felt like making them. Just a note on the colour choise. Neither red text on red background or red text on black background are a wise choise. It is too little contrast between the colours. I especially had some problem reading the link text. I would recomend the Color contrast checker: http://www.snook.ca/technical/colour_contrast/colour.html That was posted in Some links for light reading the other day ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] OT: Site help please
This is off-topic, and I'm sorry for that, but I need some independent people to have a look at a page and verify I'm seeing what the rest of the world sees - because my client doesn't .. . SO any replies off-list please so we don't end up with a long off-topic debate. My client swears when he goes to this site, he sees the a new site is coming here .. page that I had there as a holding page while I built his site. I've removed that file, but his AOL-Australia is still serving it to him.When I go to the site, I see a home page, with some text, nav buttons, pictures of the furniture the client makes etc. It's obviously not a watch this space page. Can anyone please tell me which you see? The site is at http://www.grandchesterdesigns.com.au Thanks. Sorry to be going off-topic like this but I don't have anyone else to ask that's independent. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Macromedia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Juicy Studio offline
Since a lot of my competitors' names are being mentioned here, I feel justified in plugging my own. Sorry if I'm going over the bounds. I try not to self-promote in these forums. I'm in the hosting business too. http://afpwebworks.com I host on Windows boxes, with ColdFusion, .ASP, php, perl, even good old html works! Databases included are MS SQLServer, MySQL, Access, and you can run it all from a control panel, so you can make changes any time you like without needing to depend on me to do it. You can have as many email accounts as you like, ftp accounts too, and create your own subdomains on the fly if you like. I use that for staging sites or proposals . e.g. on my site http://afpwebworks.com I have http://staging.afpwebworks.com and http://client1.afpwebworks.com and http://client2.afpwebworks.com You can set them up and take them down yourself in minutes without having to need any input from me. And I don't charge additional for each new site or sub-site - only for the disk space and bandwidth you use. You can even register domain names instantly for only $20/year. Check us out: http://afpwebworks.com Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Macromedia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Douglas Clifton Sent: Wednesday, 4 May 2005 11:27 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Juicy Studio offline For those of you who don't know Gez Lemon of Juicy Studio, he has been an incredible source of information, articles and tips for the Web developer community for a long time. He's currently on vacation and his hosting provider has gone and given him the shaft while he's away from his home-base. I'd like to ask anyone that can help, or provide suggestions for a new host he can move to or any other ideas that you can might have to do so. Support your fellow developers! Visit his site for more information about the situation and how to contact him with suggestions. http://juicystudio.com/ Thank you! -- Douglas Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://loadaveragezero.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Why does my menu float high in IE?
Can anyone see why my menu is floating above the content div in IE6? It's supposed to be touching the white area below it, as it does in Firefox and Netscape, but for a reason I can't find, in IE6 it floats above and resists any attempt I've made to bring it to heel. Obviously it's possible to get it to behave, because others have made it do so, but all the things I've tried have come to naught. I'm clearly missing something simple, but can't figure out what it is. I just KNOW its going to be one of those moments when you slap your forehead and say OH YEAH!! OF COURSE!!! The page in question is at http://staging.atalkingdog.com and the style sheet is at http://staging.atalkingdog.com/styles/atalkingdog3.css Cheers, Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com AFP Webworks Pty Ltd ColdFusion, .asp, .asp.net, php, perl hosting starting at A$15/month.
[WSG] How to align form elements
Ive got round this problem with a table kludge in the past, and Id like to learn how to fix it in CSS the elements in my form don't line up the labels arent in line with the input boxes they relate to. Can anyone tell me how to fix it? Its much worse in Firefox than it is in IE. In fact in IE Id say its acceptable just but in Firefox there is a marked difference in position between the labels and the input box they relate to. See http://atalkingdog.com/form.htm for the example and CSS that relates to it. What do I change to fix this? Can anyone help? Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com .com, .net, .org etc domains start at A$20/year
RE: [WSG] How to align form elements
AH, Yes! Thank you! That did the trick sure 'nuff. I knew that. I did! I
had just momentarily forgotten thats all.
(Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.)
Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com
Business Strength ColdFusion,PHP,ASP,ASP.NET hosting from $15/Month
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jason Turnbull
Sent: Sunday, 2 January 2005 11:01 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] How to align form elements
Michael Kear wrote:
in Firefox there is a marked difference in position
between the labels and the input box they relate to.
See http://atalkingdog.com/form.htm
Michael
Adding this style will line up the form
br{
clear:left
}
or add a clearing class to each br element within the form.
Regards
Jason Turnbull
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RE: [WSG] Color Scheme Tools (Was: My Site)
How SOON they forget! I was very disappointed at how many colour tools went some of the way and didn't go all the way to doing what I want. For example too many didn't allow you to save the results. And the flash based ones meant you couldn't even cut and paste the HEX results anywhere - when you got a good colour selection it was paper and pencil time. And all these sites with colours against black backgrounds. Very dramatic, but that's not how a large number ( maybe most? ) business sites are built. They're built on white or light backgrounds. Changes all the colour dynamics. And I wanted to be able to see graduations of colours and how they related to each other.And the blocks of colour were too small in most of the tools for me to get a good idea of the real effect of the colours. So I built my own. How soon they have forgotten!! Have a look at http://afpwebworks.com/ColourSchemer/. You enter two colours either as #RRGGBB or as #RGB and the number of steps you want, and it will give you a blend from one to the other, with large blocks of colour, with white text and black text and text in each of the colours, showing how they interact with each other. Also the URL of the result can be saved or emailed to people, and will reproduce the colour effect. For example here's a nice Christmassy one: http://afpwebworks.com/ColourSchemer/index.cfm?colour1=CC3300colour2=00CC77 numberofsteps=5submit=Submit Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Cummiskey Sent: Friday, 24 December 2004 2:43 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Color Scheme Tools (Was: My Site) I like: http://www.webwhirlers.com/colors/wheel.asp has a colour wheel and some theory behind colors. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Sometimes you just cant help people ...
I was talking to a blind friend over the weekend, and since he uses Jaws screen reading software, the subject of web sites came up. I was observing as how we in the profession were trying to make things easier for people using other devices than a browser to use the web. For example, one of the things were increasingly doing these days is having a skip to content link at the top of the page. In many cases its only visible to screen readers. Then he floored me. He said oh yes! Ive seen those. (interesting turn of phrase from a guy whos been blind since birth) but what are they for? Ive never used them because I don't know what they do. The point is, he didnt know what the skip-to-content link was for and therefore he wouldnt use it, lest he find himself a long way away from where he wanted to go (the content) and then have trouble getting back again. Perhaps we need to be a bit more expansive in the link itself. Perhaps instead of skip to content we need to have the link say skip to the content of this page or somesuch. A blind reader will hear Jaws say VISITED LINK.: SKIP TO CONTENT and thinking about it, it isnt totally obvious what that does. Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com .com, .net, .org etc domains start at A$20/year
RE: [WSG] Site check please - launched it finally!
Ok well compare that with this one: Median Windows Settings 96DPI (normal fonts) IE7.1 set to Medium How does one get IE 7.1? Oh DER!!! I'm using IE6.0.2900 - the one that came with WinXP Pro SP2. It's NETSCAPE that's up to 7.1. Whoops. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Site check please - launched it finally!
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Felix Miata Sent: Sunday, 14 November 2004 6:36 AM 5) I'd suggest setting your body font size to 76% or 0.7em. It looks just a little better at that size. It already is .7em, which is only half default size (49% of the total pixels per character box of the default size). Thanks for your thoughts Felix. The size is already at 0.7em because I adopted the excellent suggestion of Hugh Todd and changed it. If one is using IE6 and the median screen resolution of 1024x768, scrolling is required to discover the H2 Too small to read? (which at 1.5em X 13px is ~2.5px smaller than my Gecko default). If one gets to the point of seeing it and clicking on it, he is delivered a page that also has everything except headings and TD (What's on the air today: data is much larger in IE than is p on the rest of the page) set to 13px (which is who knows how big compared to the user's default, which in my case translates to a minescule 35%), on this a page ostensibly intended to help the user overcome too small page text. How is a user supposed to read this? What a paradox - help that needs help! On this help page at the very least the help text should be big enough to read - e.g. 1.0em. But then that begs the question - if the text was big enough in the first place, the visitor wouldn't need the page in the first place, would he? I put the too small to read? page in there because the deputy chairman of the station who is overseeing the project couldn't read the site. In my browser, it all looks fine. In his it doesn't. It's a conundrum. If he set up his browser properly, the site would look ok. You don't think the 'help' page is much use obviously. Well my problem is, I can't see the issue I'm trying to solve. I don't know how to set up my browser wrongly so I get the same view that our deputy chairman does. You do apparently. Since the help page looks wrong to you, and I can't see the problem that I'm trying to solve, perhaps rather than merely criticising you could help me out here by suggesting what would be a better setting. I figured that for anyone who saw the text on the site as being too small, the only way I could give them a page that they could definitely see would be one with text fixed at the normal pixel size used in the old-fashioned sites - namely with body text fixed at 11-15 pixels (I chose 13px). To be honest I don't know how to deal with this issue and perhaps others might like to suggest a way. If they can't see the site because it's too small, and I want to keep the relative font sizing, how to I deliver a help page that they can see? It's silly to give them a page with fonts in relative sizes (1.0em) because that's the problem they're trying to solve! For the others that size is huge. The chevrons placed to the left of the teaserpara.h2 in Gecko are obscuring the h2 in IE. The chevrons obscuring text? Not in any browser I use at any resolution I've been able to test at. Perhaps you can give me some more details of your resolution settings, os etc. I didn't look into the why, but at higher resolutions, the topmost menu wraps below itself on top of the dark background. Also, the date is split into two parts, part on the left, the rest imposed illegibly on the dark blue background of the top of the schedule table. I'd be most grateful if you DID look into the why, because on my browsers, at all resolutions I can test at down to 800x600 (below that I'm not interested in) it scales nicely, and is right aligned, and comes across to about 80% of the width of the page. The remaining space is to be used by two more major divisions of the site once they're ready. I'm not sure what higher resolution you are using but I work at 1280x1024 and I don't know if many of our users are going to be going higher than that. If there are problems with layout higher at resolutions higher than 1280x1024 I guess we'll have to live with it. 2 or 3 users aren't going to be a problem. What higher resolution are you talking about, Felix? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Site check please - launched it finally!
Felix, I think you need to be a little less aggressive and judgemental in your opinions. You seem to be trying to make me out as an idiot and incompetent at setting up my system. In fact it's deliberately a default installation. I don't change my browser's defaults for fear of getting into the very situation you're trying to make out. Apparently you think I've tinkered around with my system to the extent that I don't know what the defaults are any more. Well the machine I develop my sites on is kept at a default installation for just this reason. You posted a picture of how it looks on your browser, but I've never seen it look like that on a mac, or on IE7, opera, Firefox (two versions) or Netscape. Here's what you posted: Median windoze settings: 96 DPI (small fonts) IE6 set to medium 1024x768 http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/tmp/hawkradioW98-IE1.png Ok well compare that with this one: Median Windows Settings 96DPI (normal fonts) IE7.1 set to Medium 1024x768 http://hawkradio.org.au/images/hawkradio1024x768.png You'll see that the text in the what's on today table on the right is smaller than body text, which is intended. (On yours the table text is much larger than body text) Body text is readable. The H2 headings on the home page are aligned as they ought to be, just to the right of the chevron graphic. I contend that since my IE7 looks the same as all the other browsers (with the exception of the opera menu issue described by someone else earlier) that it's in fact your ancient Win98/IE6 that's the problem I need to find a hack for, not my competence in setting up my machine. ( yes, I DO need to find a solution because there will be site users with that configuration) I said I needed to put the help page there because the deputy chairman of the station was having problems reading the site and you made a stupid comment that maybe his eyes were much older than mine. You don't know anything about the situation here so don't make idiotic assumptions. It doesn't matter if he is older than me or not (actually he's 15 years younger) and it makes no difference anyway. And I find your assertion that You, as countless others, create problems because you DON'T configure your own to suit your own taste BEFORE beginning design work, instead assuming as do too many others, that most do nothing as do you yourself, and that those who do simply don't matter to you.. to be quite offensive. I do care about the site's users. The site is there for them and for the radio station not for me. Felix I'm perfectly ready to acknowledge I'm a learner. I've been a learner for 54 years. I've only built 10 CSS sites, so I have a lot to learn. But if you want anyone to pay attention to your opinions you need to learn to show a bit of respect and use less intemperate language. Back off buster. If you have some thing to say I'm interested to know what it is but if you are just going to be offensive you don't count in my view. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Question to the others ...
... and to Felix if he's going to be a bit less aggressive Felix said that my width (on http://hawkradio.org.au if you're coming in late to this saga) ought to be set at 100ex. He says: Make your overall width 100ex instead of 780px and the relationship between container width and text size will hold constant. Firstly, what kind of measurement is ex? I have never seen that before. Secondly, how would a fluid width layout work with a faux column like I've used?I guess it wouldn't. So how can you get the column effect I've designed, with the columns going the full depth of the page regardless of which column is longer, without using the fixed-width graphic? Since the graphic is 780px wide, surely the container has to be 780px wide too. No? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Another body tag question ...
Another body style question following from Felix's rant ...
I looked at what Yahoo do in their style, (http://www.yahoo.com) and they
have the following as their body style:
body{font:84%/1.2em arial,sans-serif;direction:ltr}
What's the point of setting the body font at 84% of 1.2em? (which is what I
assume is what's happening). That's 100.8% if my arithmetic is correct, so
is there any point to this instead of setting it to 100%/1.0em?
What does the 'direction:ltr' part do?
Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com
.com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year
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RE: [WSG] Another body tag question ...
Thanks Chris, Neerav. I need to put on my ever-growing list of things to learn about 'Learn about CSS shorthand instead of using the stylesweeper in topstyle to do it for you!' Thanks. Makes sense. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Stratford Sent: Sunday, 14 November 2004 4:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Another body tag question ... Hey Michael, The 84% is the Font-size. And the 1.2m is the Line-height. Michael Kear wrote: Another body style question following from Felix's rant ... ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Site check please - launched it finally!
You might recall that some time ago I offered the opportunity to starting-designers to have a go at designing a radio station web site. I said there was no money involved but wed try to pay with advertising and promotion etc for the designer. Well heres progress on whats happened. Through my own lack of organisation I was unable to get our end sorted out to brief a designer, so I had to design it all myself. Im still not 100% happy with the way it looks, and Id still welcome input from designers, on the same basis perhaps replace the existing style sheets with a better design from an aesthetic standpoint if anyone wants to do it, but the site is in a whole nother league than the one that preceeded it and which I inherited two years ago. The url is http://hawkradio.org.au and its a fully dynamic site. The server is in the Midwest of the USA, but the site knows the time of day in Windsor, and can show the current programme details and whats on today. Were going to have a lot more information about the shows. When I have finished removing the last few bugs from the content management system, Im going to allow some shows to have their own sub-site so they can post playlists, information, recipes, garden notes, sports scores or whatever is appropriate to their shows, and profiles of the presenters. Theyll all be maintained by the djs themselves without needing input from me, although some will require approval from the programme management before their work goes live. Im adding a news feed from the Sydney Morning Herald in a few days, and a calendar of community events which will be input by the local Rotary, Lions, Chamber of commerce and other community groups. This will be used for input to the whats on around the Hawkesbury page as well as getting more listener involvement. Also to come is a photo gallery pictures of the station out and about around the Hawkesbury, and our happy smiling faces of listeners. Believe it or not there are lots and LOTS of them, and when we go to local events nearly every weekend, we have hundreds of people coming over and telling us they listen and like us better than the big city commercial stations. They say we play more varied material and they get bored with the same 40 songs day after day on the commercial stations. Were working up packages for advertising too. Were restricted by our licence to carrying a maximum of 4 minutes of ads per hour, so we can add value to the ad packages by putting banners, links, spots and other messages on our web site which isnt restricted at all. The sites built to XHTML1.0 transitional, mostly because the WYSIWYG editor doesnt produce valid XHTML strict, and the programme guide page is a long way from valid. But its a tricky bit of code and Im too busy right now to rebuild it. But its on the list. Id love to know what you all think. I think its not too bad for a colour-challenged code monkey Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com .com, .net, .org etc domains start at A$20/year
RE: [WSG] Site check please - launched it finally!
G'day Chris Thanks for pointing that menu thing out. Somewhere along the line I've changed a setting somewhere because that other 'About' is supposed to say 'About the web site'. And yes, it's me. My show is a specialty bluegrass music show from 2am - dawn every Friday to about 3000 people around Sydney and replayed 10 times a week on the internet station http://bluegrasscountry.org to about 85,000 people a week. (more than 2SM in Sydney at peak time!) Not bad for volunteer run show in a very niche music huh. g That sound you hear is my horn tooting as I blow it. No one else is going to! Cheers Mike Kear p.s. I'm really sorry to the half dozen or so people who volunteered to design the site. You weren't selected, not because you weren't good enough, but because I couldn't get my ducks in a row in time to do it all. My apologies to you all, and thanks for volunteering anyway. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Stratford Sent: Saturday, 13 November 2004 5:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Site check please - launched it finally! Hey Michael, Looks great! One thing I would say is that the menu structure may be confusing - maybe not. But whenever the menu drops down - eg: for ABOUT. I didnt think there would or should be differnt links for the two menu items called about... it looks like this: ABOUT ABOUT GEEKY STUFF STATION NEWS The top level about, and the 2nd level About are both different links... Maybe that just confused me. also. is this you? MUSIC FROM FOGGY HOLLOW http://hawkradio.org.au/bluegrass/ with Mike Kear Bluegrass, Newgrass Acoustic Country ?? Michael Kear wrote: You might recall that some time ago I offered the opportunity to starting-designers to have a go at designing a radio station web site. I said there was no money involved but we'd try to pay with advertising and promotion etc for the designer. Well here's progress on what's happened. Through my own lack of organisation I was unable to get our end sorted out to brief a designer, so I had to design it all myself. I'm still not 100% happy with the way it looks, and I'd still welcome input from designers, on the same basis - perhaps replace the existing style sheets with a better design from an aesthetic standpoint if anyone wants to do it, but the site is in a whole 'nother league than the one that preceeded it and which I inherited two years ago. The url is http://hawkradio.org.au http://hawkradio.org.au/ and it's a fully dynamic site. The server is in the Midwest of the USA, but the site knows the time of day in Windsor, and can show the current programme details and what's on today. We're going to have a lot more information about the shows. When I have finished removing the last few bugs from the content management system, I'm going to allow some shows to have their own sub-site so they can post playlists, information, recipes, garden notes, sports scores or whatever is appropriate to their shows, and profiles of the presenters. They'll all be maintained by the djs themselves without needing input from me, although some will require approval from the programme management before their work goes live. I'm adding a news feed from the Sydney Morning Herald in a few days, and a calendar of community events which will be input by the local Rotary, Lions, Chamber of commerce and other community groups. This will be used for input to the what's on around the Hawkesbury page as well as getting more listener involvement. Also to come is a photo gallery - pictures of the station out and about around the Hawkesbury, and our happy smiling faces of listeners. Believe it or not there are lots and LOTS of them, and when we go to local events nearly every weekend, we have hundreds of people coming over and telling us they listen and like us better than the big city commercial stations. They say we play more varied material and they get bored with the same 40 songs day after day on the commercial stations. We're working up packages for advertising too. We're restricted by our licence to carrying a maximum of 4 minutes of ads per hour, so we can add value to the ad packages by putting banners, links, spots and other messages on our web site which isn't restricted at all. The site's built to XHTML1.0 transitional, mostly because the WYSIWYG editor doesn't produce valid XHTML strict, and the programme guide page is a long way from valid. But it's a tricky bit of code and I'm too busy right now to rebuild it. But it's on the list. I'd love to know what you all think. I think it's not too bad for a colour-challenged code monkey Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com .com, .net, .org etc domains start at A$20/year -- Chris Stratford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.neester.com
[WSG] Colour Scheme aids
Not sure if this is off-topic or not. If it is, I apologise now. But I hope it isnt off-topic, so Ill continue . Does anyone have a favourite colour scheme tool? What Im looking for is a tool for design-challenged klutzes like me (well ok its actually FOR me. I admit it!) where I can take a couple of given colours such as in a logo, and create a suggested colour scheme for a site? With alternative contrasting or complementary colours. I can spend as long trying to work out colours as I can on the whole rest of the designing process. I have read plenty of tutorials on the subject, so thats not what Im looking for. The trouble is, every tutorial I read makes it more obvious that Im a ditz when it comes to colour and design. (Something my wife has been telling me for 30 years). I get more and more confused as I read more. What Id like to find is something I saw once years ago and cant find any more Id like to enter say two colours that I get from a logo, and click to get a few colour scheme suggestions that would work together with those colours. From there I could refine the lighter and darker colours I need using my own blender tool on my web site. (If you havent seen that, Im really proud of it. Its the first design tool Ive ever made. Its at http://afpwebworks.com/ColourSchemer/index.cfm - you put in the starting colour, and the finishing colour, and the number of steps you want up to 20 and itll give you the values of the 20 steps from one colour to the other, with blocks and text in those colours. ) Anyway, can anyone help me out with a colour scheme design tool please? Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com .com, .net, .org etc domains start at A$20/year
[WSG] Select form element doesnt validate
I'm trying to validate a page, and I'm getting this error. Line 183, column 28: the name and VI delimiter can be omitted from an attribute specification only if SHORTTAG YES is specified And also .. Line 184, column 29: there is no attribute SELECTED I have two problems with this . I tried to find what the syntax of this should be, and couldn't find a link anywhere to the actual syntax definition. I don't know what a VI Delimiter is, and looked for a definition. I'd have thought that W3C would have it somewhere linked to the validator, but not where I can see. And also I was sure that SELECTED=selected was correct, but apparently not. Again I looked for the dinkum definition but couldn't find it. Anyone know where it is? Here's the code for the offending form element involved: label for=ReferredbyReferred By:/labelselect id=Referredby name=Referredby option value=0 selectedSearch Engine/option option value=5 SELECTED = Selected Heard about the site on the radio/option option value=1 Web Ring/option option value=2 E-Mail/option option value=3 Friend/option option value=4 Just Surfed In/option /select Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com .com, .net, .org etc domains start at A$20/year ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Select form element doesnt validate
Ok, I figured out by trial and error that SELECTED=selected is wrong, but selected=selected is correct, but I still don't see a link anywhere to the correct syntax. I figure if a validator is going to say that's wrong they ought to provide a link so you can find out what's right. Don't you think? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Kear Sent: Tuesday, 26 October 2004 9:47 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Select form element doesnt validate I'm trying to validate a page, and I'm getting this error. Line 183, column 28: the name and VI delimiter can be omitted from an attribute specification only if SHORTTAG YES is specified And also .. Line 184, column 29: there is no attribute SELECTED I have two problems with this . I tried to find what the syntax of this should be, and couldn't find a link anywhere to the actual syntax definition. I don't know what a VI Delimiter is, and looked for a definition. I'd have thought that W3C would have it somewhere linked to the validator, but not where I can see. And also I was sure that SELECTED=selected was correct, but apparently not. Again I looked for the dinkum definition but couldn't find it. Anyone know where it is? Here's the code for the offending form element involved: label for=ReferredbyReferred By:/labelselect id=Referredby name=Referredby option value=0 selectedSearch Engine/option option value=5 SELECTED = Selected Heard about the site on the radio/option option value=1 Web Ring/option option value=2 E-Mail/option option value=3 Friend/option option value=4 Just Surfed In/option /select Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com .com, .net, .org etc domains start at A$20/year ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Select form element doesnt validate
True, Patrick, it's not a teaching tool. But you do need to be able to find out what is correct if it says it's wrong. The link in the big red bar doesn't link to a syntax reference at all, but a general document about XHTML and changes from html etc. I was looking for something to tell me specifically what is the valid syntax for a drop down select box, and I couldn't find one. Still can't. Can anyone tell me where to find the specific syntax for a select dropdown? Or any other tag?You can't find it from the validator page, and I'd have thought you ought to be able to. As it is, it's a bit like when your dad whacked you as a kid for doing something wrong. You wailed what was that for? and he says you did something wrong - something to do with your clothes. and he wont tell you that you should have picked your clothes up off the bathroom floor after your shower. In my book that's poor parenting, and I think it would be a very simple task for W3C to add a link to the correct syntax somewhere in that validator tool. Now another possibility is that I couldn't see a link to the correct syntax that was right there in front of my face. Well after searching the validator results page for 30 minutes I couldn't see it, and if there was such a link, it's not very well designed. It ought to be obvious. So ... where DO I find a reference document showing the correct syntax for XHTML tags? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Tuesday, 26 October 2004 11:21 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Select form element doesnt validate Michael Kear wrote: I figure if a validator is going to say that's wrong they ought to provide a link so you can find out what's right. Don't you think? There are no less than 2 links to the exact specification of the doctype your document purports to use (one at the top, in the form, just next to the dropdown where you can force a different doctype, and one in the big brown/red bar that tells you when something is not valid). Also, the actual error messages are quite verbose if you read them properly. For example, in the case of there is no attribute type errors, you have, among other things: How to fix: check the spelling and case of the element and attribute, (Remember XHTML is all lower-case) and/or check that they are both allowed in the chosen document type, and/or use CSS instead of this attribute. (and yes, in this case it was the lower-case issue that was to blame). Beyond that, it's a validating tool, not a teaching tool... Patrick H. Lauke ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] top of page link class not taking effect
You do remember that any link that refers to an anchor on the same page is by definition a visited link don't you. You can't just set text-decoration:none; on the link, you have to make sure it's set on the visited link too. Could that be the cause? Do you have some styling related to visited links that's being inherited here? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year -Original Message- To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] top of page link class not taking effect G'day it's the appearance of the link that's the problem. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Is XHTML harmful?
-Original Message- Shane Helm - he say: All code of every web page should be validated. Any errors need to be corrected. If your typo is in a tag, then it could produce undesirable results. We should all make sure our code on every web page we create has no errors, whether simple typos or forgotten closing tags; whether we use HTML or XHTML. Best, Shane Helm Quite so. I'm ashamed to say I built several web sites without validating anything. I worked on the basis that if it looked ok in IE and perhaps Netscape, and didn't look too bad in the mac we had at the next desk, that was ok. Anyone else who has something different was on their own. Lots of luck, pal. Since I've learned more about web standards and accessibility I've had occasion to rebuild one of those sites, and I built it to XHML1.0Strict. I'm not sure if using XHTML was better, or just because I validated the code, but the new version of the site is faster, smaller, better, laid out better, the code all works. It's easier to maintain. Far faster to find the place in a page that needs work than it did before. Perhaps it's got nothing to do with XHTML per se, but because I coded to a much more stringent standard, I did a better job of it. It was frustrating at first, seeing all those errors coming up, and the nasty ole validator being picky and splitting hairs over a non-supported attribute here or a forgotten / there but the end result is a much better job, and now I am much more disciplined in the code I write. The tighter discipline on my own coding habits means I get more pages right first time now than I did before. Benefit: faster results of higher quality than before. Maybe XHTML has nothing to do with it, maybe it does. But the overall effect is a big improvement all around for me. I reckon validating makes good sense from many points of view. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Re: Free Editors
It's not entirely Off topic. At the MXDU conference last year, Sean Cornfield who is the Macromedia webmaster, said that they're gradually working towards standards compliance and accessibility. He said they are taking it seriously and whenever they work on a part of the site, they bring it up to more modern standards. But there are more than 40,000 pages on the site, so it's no trivial task. A lot of the pages are rarely visited archived pages, so it's a big question whether it's worth the effort to update some of them. Macromedia are concerned with accessibility issues, and have listened to people who tell them, for example, that flash isn't accessible. In the new FlashMX2004Pro v7.2 just released (that's the development tool), there are improvements specifically to make flash elements accessible. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Amit Karmakar Sent: Saturday, 18 September 2004 2:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Re: Free Editors And speaking of Macromedia itself how accessible is http://macromedia.com/bin/accessibility.cgi Again no legend no fieldset Sorry this is slightly OT [snip] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors
Sorry Mark, but I don't think you're correct. Until very recently, they only worked on IE. Run the page on any other browser and you either get an error, or a plain textarea form control. And until the day before yesterday, there wasn't any I knew of that claimed to have XHTML support. Except one that claimed to have XHML support and produced all upper case tags, and allowed BR to remain in the output. And yes, Dreamweaver handles XHTML excellently. You can load an old page into it, select Convert to XHTML on the file menu and bingo! Valid XHML1.0 Transitional. A little tweaking and you have XHTML1.0Strict. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Harwood Sent: Thursday, 16 September 2004 9:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] WYSIWYG Editors Olajide, You question is a bit vage, any WYSIWYG editor will work on all browsers depending on the markup you input! I think your asking which offers the best XHTML CSS Support? I wouldnt know, as i thrown on using them for XHTML CSS coding, But Dreamweaver MX 2004 is supose to handly XHTML CSS very well but its still down to how well the user implements the code as too how X-browser compatible the output will be Mark Harwood ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] I found a compliant Radio station site!
Ive been looking, on and off, for a standards-compliant radio station site for ages, and Ive finally found one. NZs government-owned Radio New Zealand has a compliant site, coded in XHTML1.0 strict. Its even got a page about its compliance and how its accessibility features work. The site LOOKs really REALLY boring, which I think they could have improved a lot, but the structure and navigation etc proves that you can indeed have an informative media site that doesnt have all the garbage thats on most media sites. Its at http://www.radionz.co.nz and the accessibility statement is at http://www.radionz.co.nz/index.php?nav=1section=access Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com .com, .net, .org etc domains start at A$20/year
[WSG] Two form styling problems
Im styling a form on a new site, and have two problems that perhaps you knowledgeable people can help me with: Form is at http://koalaframing.com.au/contactus.cfm , style sheet is at http://koalaframing.com.au/styles/koalaframing.css [A] Im puzzled at why my submit button has leapt up to the top of the textarea box but only in Firefox. In IE its in the correct place, at the bottom of the form, and also in Opera. (Netscape I havent been able to check because my copy of NN is broken and needs to be reinstalled) [B] in Firefox, when I apply any styling to the drop-down select box, it loses the down-arrow on the right side, so firefox users will assume its not a drop-down box. Is this a bug or a feature enhancement? or is there some styling I need to apply to put the arrow back? Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com .com, .net, .org etc domains start at A$20/year
RE: [WSG] Two form styling problems
OK so I added a single keystroke to the html and two keystrokes to the CSS, and in areas not related to the problem, and uploaded them. The changes have made no difference. I still have the problem. So can anyone see why these problems appear? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year -Original Message- From: Adam Steer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 30 August 2004 3:04 PM To: Michael Kear Subject: Re: [WSG] Two form styling problems Hi Michael ...check your code and CSS first - neither validate. The code is simple - just close your link tag where the stylesheet is called. The CSS I haven't looked at in detail but w3c didn't like it too much... In Safari, I see similar problems to what you report in Mozilla - also, the submit button appears completely unstyled and the 'message' box pops out of the orange background. In ie5 [MacOS X], it probably looks about right, but your drop-down list doesn't line up with the 'e-mail' field... Anyway, validate things first and see how you go... Cheers Adam. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Online browser XTHML editor
I've been looking for a year now for an editor that will produce XHTML. I've chatted electronically with most of the developers/owners and I think as a group they didn't have XHTML on their radar screens at all. The guy who produces FCKEditor for example ( have trouble reading that without mildly shocking myself) told me that yes, he must get around to doing a XHTML version one day soon. Until then it'll change all tags to upper case, it'll allow BR and FONT tags. The only one I've found that produces XHTML is a coldfusion one that Italian Massimo Foti has made. It has the added advantage of a reduced feature set too, so people can't add a hundred fonts etc to their text. It's a lot better at restricting the user's choices to your style sheet options than the others are it seems. Disclaimer: let me add that I have only looked at the coldfusion apps because that's all I need - there may well be other apps that do XHTML in PHP or .ASP or whatever. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sarah Peeke (XERT) Sent: Tuesday, 24 August 2004 5:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Online browser XTHML editor I've found a half way measure at: http://www.flyspeck.net which does not require a CMS in place, but it doesn't appear to handle XHTML. Can anyone tell me how much of an issue this would be if the client is only updating paragraphs of text, an image upload - simple stuff? There is some degree of control over Flyspeck's editable areas (ref: http://www.flyspeck.net/technical_info/more_control.php ) Thanks for all the other suggestions which I'm looking into too. Sarah ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Unaccessible - NY Attorney General busts two big name sites
I was interested that the Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission uses tables for layout in their web site at: http://www.hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/index.html http://www.hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/faq/f.a.q.html Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoff Deering Sent: Friday, 20 August 2004 8:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Unaccessible - NY Attorney General busts two big name sites [snip] In this post I am just trying to make a few points; 1) That there is probably a lot of opportunity to take corps to court, but the disability community are more tolerant than liturguous. 2) Big corps are basically pretty ignorant about accessibility (but this movement in design is probably the best thing to begin changing that). http://www.w3.org/WAI/Policy/#Australia http://www.hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/index.html http://www.hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/faq/f.a.q.html ___ Geoff Deering ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] applying style to the 3rd column of a table?
Ah! That'll be why I didn't archive it. I figure life's too short to be fretting about IE and non-IE capabilities. I figure while I have the say-so on the design aspect of a site, I'll just not use anything that doesn't work in all browsers. i.e. if it's IE only, it doesn't get done. The vast majority of things can be achieved in a number of ways, and if a design feature requires some proprietary or non-standard behaviour in the browser, then I'll go looking for ways to achieve the same thing, perhaps in a different way, but in a cross-browser standards compliant fashion. Of course if your job is to code up the design handed to you by a designer, signed off by the client, then perhaps you don't have quite as much flexibility. But in general, unless a technique is widely supported, I don't bother to go into much detail with it. When the new version of CSS is released, I'll read about it, understand the issues, but won't bother learning much about it until there is a wide acceptance of it in the marketplace. There's enough going through my mind for me to learn about, without having to learn things I'm maybe going to use some time in the future, maybe not. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of scott parsons Sent: Friday, 13 August 2004 4:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] applying style to the 3rd column of a table? you can but only in IE due to IE having some weirdness occuring in the way they layout the page. BUT if you style the columns using the IE method, and style the third td (td+td+td etc) which will be understood by most modern browsers you should be able to get the column styled for everybody. perhaps not the best way to go about things but it will work s ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] applying style to the 3rd column of a table?
I thought I read somewhere that you can style tables by columns, just as you
can by rows and cells.In the article I read, the example showed TH
across the top of the table, and the first column of cells was styled using
some kind of column selector, not picking the first cell in each row. (this
is one of those senior moments I guess, because I can't find where I read
that now - it was in one of Russ's light reading posts a few months back I
think.)
But if it's what I think it is, that would allow you to give a column an id
and style it that way.
No?
Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: Friday, 13 August 2004 1:56 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] applying style to the 3rd column of a table?
You may want to look at COLGROUPs
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/tables.html#h-11.2.4
Patrick H. Lauke
Justin French wrote:
Hi Folks,
Is there any way (without ids or classes) to target the 3rd (for
example) column of a table to apply styles?
What I'm hoping for is something like...
table td[3]{ text-align:right; }
... but I can't see anything like that in my references.
TIA
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[WSG] Followup- what's happening with design project
A quick followup to let you know whats happened since I asked for volunteers to help me build a standards-compliant accessible radio station web site . Ive had 5 designers put their hands up to volunteer, and Im in the process of evaluating them now. Im taking account of the fact that they havent got a lot of experience in designing XHTML sites, and hopefully well end up with a showcase site thatll stand in good stead in the portfolio and help them get ahead in this business as a result. Also, Peter Ottery offered to submit a design, in the event that no one came forward. Given his already heavy workload at F2, I think this was extraordinarily generous of him, and Im most grateful for his offer. I think once weve set out a plan for the new site and how were going to do it (and whos going to do what) we might set up a blog somewhere so anyone else whos interested can follow the progress. Its not as though it needs to be highly secret. Would that be of interest to anyone? Anyway, Im very grateful to Peter Ottery for offering to submit a design, and to the 5 people who volunteered. Regardless of how this turns out, I will try to make sure they all get some kind of recognition for volunteering. Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com
[WSG] OT: Last call for interested young desgners
Sorry for the kind-of off-topic post, so rather than compound my transgression please respond directly to me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] rather than on the list. I have to make a decision in the next few days about how were going to design our new site, and if you want to be considered, nows the time to let me know. This job would suit a young web designer starting out, or someone who hasnt got the opportunity to design a standards-compliant site and wants one in their portfolio. Heres the deal; Its a radio station well organised and well run, with state-of-the art equipment and weve been broadcasting 24 hours a day for 25 years. We contribute programs to the national satellite network and also some programs networked worldwide. Were a very advanced station from the point of view of broadcasting, but our web site looks like someone threw it together in an afternoon using a hacked copy of FrontPage. The station is prepared to try new things provided they make sense, so its a wide brief for a designer. Were going to build a fully dynamic site using web standards, and build to XHTML 1.0 strict if we can manage it, XHTML1.0 transitional if we cant. We want a site thats as accessible as we can make it. Were about half way through the coding the database and maintenance objects and getting close to needing to have a design to work to now. Theres a site map already and were building it with lots of flexibility for adding and removing parts of the site dynamically. The design brief is to create an eyecatching design for the radio station using CSS and the only required element is to retain the current logo its on tshirts, caps, pens, printed matter, our outside broadcast bus, signs transmitter etc etc so we cant change that. Other wise, the only limitation on the design is good sense. We don't want the designer to build the site, merely to produce a design for the site- overall design colour scheme, look and feel, a few pages etc for us to use as templates. Payment: Yeah right. This is a volunteer station and Im contributing my skills and hosting as part of my contribution to the station. There is no payment. But we can pay you in other ways recommendations, your logo on the site so you can use it in your portfolio (thats why it will probably suit a young designer starting out rather than someone who has a portfolio already). If youre in the western Sydney area, it might suit you to have some ads on the station too. Basically were asking a lot and we want to make it worth while to whoever designs the site, but realise its not good business for someone with an established reputation as a designer. The short answer is we cant pay money but we want to make it worth your effort in other ways if we can. We don't want anything for free, just don't have money to pay you with. There might well be some paying work coming up for you later if you do a reasonable job. Yes I know, Ive heard that lots of times too. Youll just have to trust me. If youre interested in this outlandish proposition, want to have a free go at an advanced site in the media sector, to build a site that is better than the huge number of pretty useless and non-standard radio station sites, and do it to the latest accessibility and compliant techniques, then reply by email or give me a call on 02-4577-4898. Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com
RE: [WSG] technique of converting to tablefree layout
I've mostly used the good old MkI delete key - the most-used key on my keyboard. When I started renovating web sites, and using word docs and FrontPage sites, I tried using automated methods - search and replace and the like - and found there was always something left. A single b or a i somewhere that affected half the remaining page. Or a font tag that didn't exactly match the search criteria so it would be left. Or a table that I really did want kept would be deleted.These fixes I found would often take just as long as going through the page and deleting stuff in the first place. Another way is to select/copy from the rendered page in a browser. That way you only pick up the content if you get the select right, and you don't pick up all the associated table structure. Dreamweaver has powerful search and replace functions. For example, you can have it delete all font tags, regardless of the attributes, or all span tags. And with a single click you can convert the file to XHTML. It'll go through the file closing off tags, fixing case, adding quotes to attributes etc. And Dreamweaver's Word Clean-up function is magic. Watch it reduce a simple word html document of 500 lines to about 50 or fewer with no change in the rendered content! Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lea de Groot Subject: Re: [WSG] technique of converting to tablefree layout [snip] Yes, once someone said 'regexp' i went Doh! and got on with the job :) What can I say, except I have a headcold? :) Thanks, all Lea -- Lea de Groot * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Good radio station sites?
Title: FW: [WSG] Good radio station sites? Thank you Peter, thats exactly the idea I had in mind. I could design it myself but I think its an opportunity for a designer starting out in standards/css/xhtml design. Its a project that doesnt pay anything in money terms. But therell be credit on the site, and the designer can put it in their portfolio. There is no restrictions on the design, except for good sense, and the fact that we don't want to change our logo because its used in lots of places. So a designer has a pretty wide brief. Its a way for a designer to learn to design a site that covers a lot of different types of pages, and using only CSS for styling. On a resume thats going to look pretty good. A media site, designed to the latest standards. Looks good to me. Not many people have time to take on probono projects, but I have 3 I look after, as part of my commitment to my hobbies and a way of adding back to organisations that do a lot for me. But it also offers me the way to use my skills and learn to do things where I don't have a client wanting that done right now. For example, when I needed to learn how to convert a site from old fashioned tables based layout to CSS based layout, I didnt have a client ready to do that at the time. But I have these probono sites, and I picked one for a re-vamp. I needed to learn how to make a content management system, and didnt have a well-heeled client ready to build one, so I built one for one of my probono sites. If this site works out as well as we hope, were going to be making an issue of it on the station. Our listenership covers most of the Sydney metro area and we run ads pointing to the site 8 times a day. Were going to be raising its profile a lot in the national radio organisation CBAA and other media groups. Were going to be putting effort into making it a feature of the station. Our station is one of the oldest community stations in the country 25 years continuous 24hour a day broadcasting and we are technically very advanced. For example our sports calling equipment is more advanced than 2GBs. We might run the station on a shoestring but the equipment we use is state-of-the-art. Its an all-digital station and our gear isnt old second hand cast-offs from other stations. Were one of the few radio stations in the country that can run 3 outside broadcasts simultaneously with no one back in the studio in town. (we recently had a group doing crosses from a hospital fundraiser, and calling the NRL game at Panthers Stadium at the same time as running the station from the Hawkesbury Show from our OB bus). The station is prepared to have a go at things. As to the design brief, the station management has accepted my idea that we should rebuild our pretty boring site into something thats a showcase an example for others to follow. Weve laid out a pretty ambitious siteplan for the content were going to have, and I have ambitious plans for how Im going to build it. I want to use the latest coldfusion techniques, and use XHTML strict if I can manage it, so the resulting code is right up to date. And we need a design thats eyecatching, up to date, and cuts some new ground in media web sites. I hope someone sees some personal benefit from committing their time to doing a design for it. Ive found doing probono work gives me the confidence to say yes I can build a site like that because with probono I can take risks and try things I wouldnt be game to try on a clients dime. I havent had any offers so far Peter, but if I don't, Ill definitely take you up on it. Thanks for your offer. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com From: Peter Ottery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 16 July 2004 10:52 AM To: 'Michael Kear' Subject: FW: [WSG] Good radio station sites? Hi Michael, sounds like a really worthwhile cause and good on you for taking on the challenge! :) I'm guessing (and hoping) you get a few offers from young designers that have some time on their hands and are willing to contribute some design talent to the project. But in the event that you dont - let me know and I'd be prepared to contribute a design for it. What i mean is - theres potentially some young and talented kids out there that could really benefit from adding something like this to their portfolio (and get something out of the exercise for themselves) but yeah - i know what its like, and everyone is busy - so if you dont get any offers to help out - let me know and I'd love to help out. pete Peter Ottery Head of Design f2 Network (02) 8596 4450 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.f2.com.au
RE: [WSG] A California meeting? was Brisbane July Meeting - Report
Ah yes, Los Angeles, Paradise. At least you can SEE the air they make you breathe. g Cheers Mike Kear Hi Lea, Marina Del Rey, CA is a suburb of Los Angeles, California. Paradise!!! :-) Best, Jim Barricks * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Good radio station sites?
My research of radio station sites in the last 48 hours has told me that the vast majority of them are ... well to put it bluntly, they're a wank. Few of them provide content that's relevant to the activities of the stations, aside from program guides and some pictures of some of the hosts. But of course that could well mean that the stations don't have much of an idea themselves about a purpose for their existence. No sense of involvement with their communities, and trying to engage the activities of their listeners. I haven't found a single one yet that's even close to being built on web standards. The notable exceptions would be the BBC and the Australian ABC sites and the US NPR sites which have heaps of content related to the station's shows and activities. The ones that do provide relevant content are pretty dismal in web standards terms - pretty awful looking and the code is amateur for most of them. So we're embarking on what we hope is going to be a different kind of radio station site. Our station is a community station, running on a shoestring, but our sound isn't amateur so our web site can't be. Our station is supposed to be a part of our local community and we're going to have a go at involving the community in the web site as well as the station. Community events, local news that sort of thing, if we can figure out the way to do it without taking a lot of ongoing effort. And we're going to build it using XHTML. Strict if we can go that far. We're going to fully separate content from logic from presentation so updates in the future will be easy. In other words it's going to be a proof of the concept that building to web standards saves development time, effort and ongoing maintenance. Even though it's a probono site for me, we're going to keep records of the time spent. Does anyone want to have a go at the design side of it? We want to produce a flexible, outstanding standards-based site and have few limitations on what we can and can't do, other than functional limitations. We can't pay money - there's no money for the project. It's my contribution to the station, but we can pay with ads on the station. It would suit someone working around western Sydney if the ads would mean something to your business. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Horner Sent: Thursday, 15 July 2004 5:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Good radio station sites? I'd be interested in John Horner's comments on this, as he's a member of this list. Hey, put me on the spot why don't you? Given the ABC is a government organisation shouldn't they really be fulfilling some requirements of the DDA? Yes, yes we should, though traditionally Triple J has operated very much as their own unit, both in terms of online and the organisation in general, and that's probably as it should be. I really can't answer for their decisions or even be sure what they were. Nice design tho'. Well exactly. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Good radio station sites?
Does anyone know of any decent standards-based radio station sites? Ive been looking around lately for a project and I havent found a single one that is any good at all from an accessibility/standards standpoint. It seems for the majority of radio stations theyve either let their promotions department go crazy and produce something totally off-the-wall in design terms, then tried their darndest to force html to reproduce that on a screen, or theyve gone to the other extreme and got Billy Jones from next door to do it, because he does HTML at high school and hell only cost them $50, a tshirt and a couple of free CDs for the project. Can anyone point me to any really professional, high-quality, standards-based radio station web sites? Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com
[WSG] I've done it again ...
Ive lost a reference to another excellent article I read about how to guarantee that two or three columns will go all the way to the bottom of the page, regardless of the length of any of the columns. Can anyone help? The article Im looking for shows how to have columns styled all the way to the bottom of the page whether the centre (main) column is the longer or not. I think Im going to have to make an index of all these articles so I can find them again. I read good stuff and think thats useful and Ill use that next time I have to do that! only when that time comes around, I cant find it again. How do the rest of you handle that? Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com
RE: [WSG] I've done it again ...
No it wasn't that one Mordechai, but it's a terrific article. That's a fantastic resource. And it can build your styles automatically too!! Thanks for finding it. I never fail to be astonished at the worthwhile and downright practical ideas coming from this list, day after day. Thanks again! Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mordechai Peller Sent: Wednesday, 7 July 2004 12:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] I've done it again ... Michael Kear wrote: I've lost a reference to another excellent article I read about how to guarantee that two or three columns will go all the way to the bottom of the page, regardless of the length of any of the columns. Can anyone help? Was it http://positioniseverything.net/piefecta-rigid.html;? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Looking for help and critiques on a new site
Seona, I feel your pain. There have been times I've asked serious questions to a list and had either flippant replies or no replies at all. I've wanted to say LOOK YOU BUNCH OF B*S*A*DS, I REALLY NEED TO KNOW THIS. YOU ANSWER EVERYONE ELSES QUESTIONS WHATS SO DIFFERENT ABOUT MINE? In many years of being on lists, I've never found that giving in to such temptation really works. All you do is get flooded with lots of 'chill out' or 'hey lose the attitude' messages. But no one here is obliged to help you. We're all just like you - doing our thing as best we can and sharing our knowledge where we can. If no one responded, perhaps no one wanted to, or perhaps no one really saw your question, or perhaps the people who might otherwise have helped were busy doing other stuff or any of a dozen other reasons. The only thing you can really do is just ask your question again politely and see if that works better. Perhaps it was timing that was the problem, nothing to do with you. Anyway, if it helps you, you have a spelling error on your page- Australians spell it 'organisation not organization. Cheers Mike Kear _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Seona Bellamy Sent: Sunday, 4 July 2004 8:55 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Looking for help and critiques on a new site Well, I've been away from email for a few days, and I've carefully combed through the ton of posts I came back to, but it looks like the response to my queries has been truly underwhelming. I do offer my sincere thanks to the two people who responded to my JavaScript problem, but I must confess to being disappointed that no one has offered any critiques of the site itself or solutions (or even suggestions) on how to deal with the other two problems. When I put the question about the JavaScript validation there, it was something of an afterthought which I'm now almost wishing I hadn't included (although that might have meant that the whole post would simply vanish into obscurity like when I first posted these questions a few weeks ago). So I'm left with a few possible conclusions: a) The questions weren't on-topic enough to be worth answering - don't think this one is the case. b) The questions weren't interesting enough to be worth answering. c) I'm just chatting to myself here - really hope this one isn't the case. [snip] attachment: winmail.dat
RE: [WSG] 100% Inaccessible
I guess Im learning something about design after all! I looked at that e-booking site and decided it looks frankly .. old fashioned in web terms. Meaning its looking S 2001 now. I have a friend in the games business, and I looked at his site yesterday and it looked very 1990s to me. Old fashioned and been there, done that. (I didnt tell him though hes a very good friend and very proud of it). So perhaps Im picking up some design stuff after all. A few years ago someone could have said a site was old fashioned and unless it was pure text Id have been completely perplexed. But of course that is an important aspect of what were doing here. When we figure an accessible/css site is old fashioned, its a simple matter of crafting another set of style sheets and load them up. No need to touch any of the logic, database access, login/authentication stuff, just redo the presentation stuff. (Yes, I know a site redesign is frequently no trivial task but Im sure you get my point). As far as this particular site goes, if ebooking.com.au had simply validated his code on each page, it would have probably run fine in all browsers. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Stratford Subject: [WSG] 100% Inaccessible I know this is OT. But I have had it up to here (**motions towards my ceiling**) with websites that dont even load in other browsers... I just send www.ebooking.com.au a very vivid email about how their website is TERRIBLY INACCESSIBLE... Try and load it in any other browser than IE... AFAIK - It wont load in: FireFox... (I assume Mozilla too then!) Safari... Just a little OT rant... No need to reply to the list. Send whatever hate URLS you have to my inbox... - Chris Stratford
[WSG] Importing hacks into CSS? Whats the point?
I was reading the article Integrated Web Design: Strategies for Long-Term CSS Hack Management: http://www.informit.com/articles/article.asp?p=170511 Referred to by Russ in his very useful links for light reading and I read this article. Amongst other things it suggests not putting hacks into your CSS file, but instead importing them from another external hack file. Like this: [code] /* importing hi-pass filter */ @import hi-pass.css; [/code] The article says that by using this method, you have all your hacks in files external to the main css file and can easily be dispensed with when you finally determine that time has moved along and the hacks are no longer required. Fair enough. I understand the point, I think, except that I don't think you gain anything at all by it, except more complexity in the site's file structure. Every hack now represents one more file that has to be uploaded, version controlled, backed up, managed etc. I'd have thought it was simpler to have the hack actually in the main css file, and commented adequately so it was easy to find there.Or am I missing the point? Does anyone else agree? Disagree? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Problem with floated divs in gallery site
John, I do like your idea of using the program method of working out the padding for the top. That's an excellent idea. I'm in the process of making my own ColdFusion picture gallery ready for sharing with others, and this trick of yours will go well with it. Very elegant answer I think! And the finished page looks terrific too. Well done. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Penlington Sent: Friday, 25 June 2004 2:25 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Problem with floated divs in gallery site Hi all again! RE: My problem with floated divs in gallery site - and trying to get those thumbnail images to align at the bottom. I've solved the problem - in two ways - and thanks for those suggestions. You'll find the result at: http://www.bluemountainsgardener.info/fgtest/max_miller_solved.asp It shows both solutions - the first using divs and the second using a CSS table. Both are on the same page with CSS embedded. The results look exactly the same in IE6, Mozilla 1.5 and Opera 7.23 I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Apple Mac browsers !! For the div version, I used program code (ASP) to subtract each thumbnail's height from 100 (the maximum height of any thumbnail) and made that the value for *padding-top* as an inline style for the img tag. As each thumbnail is a live link to a bigger image on a different page, I ended up having to add a*border='0'* attribute to the image tag to get rid of the link-induced border around the image plus the padding. This was sloppy coding, I know, but it was so late at night!! [snip] * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Problem with floated divs in gallery site
What if you changed your design a little so you don't need to do that? Like for example putting the caption on the top instead of the bottom? I havent tried this but what about putting the image and its caption in a div, then putting THAT in another div, with fixed height attributes and have the image/caption div at the bottom of it? Cant do that? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
The author's an idiot. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marc Greenstock Sent: Monday, 14 June 2004 8:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Interesting reading A friend of mine sent me this link; http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_05.aspx He loves to play devils advocate so he just refuses to adopt current standards, it's ok though cause he's the competition. Happy reading :) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
Ok let me expand on my earlier opinion and give a bit more detail He's a bloody idiot. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marc Greenstock Sent: Monday, 14 June 2004 8:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] Interesting reading A friend of mine sent me this link; http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_05.aspx He loves to play devils advocate so he just refuses to adopt current standards, it's ok though cause he's the competition. Happy reading :) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Interesting reading
I guess my characterisation of this author didn't meet with universal approval. Fair enough Lea, but I don't take any of it back. Some thoughts about what he's written: IF Microsoft introduced the most fantastic, whiz-bang, easy-to-use new feature in the next version of IE, that wouldn't be enough to get a wise developer to use it. It's only when the majority of the site users can use it (and for most web developers that includes mozilla users, mac users, opera users et.al) that they'll actually build it into their sites. Unless I have a site where 95% or more are using this new browser I wouldn't use the new feature. So Microsoft and Netscape and the others can innovate all they want and I approve of that, but until there's a positive advantage for me as a site owner or developer, it's all academic. Oh, and what do we have when the other browsers all support this new feature?? A STANDARD!! He says that If they, Microsoft won't even make their very own webpages compliant, don't expect the next version of IE to be fully compatible with other browsers.But he ignores the point that it's in Microsoft's interests to have their pages break in other browsers. I had a MS techo tell me once when I tried to point out a broken page in Netscape, well you should be using a proper browser instead of Netscape. That's ok for Microsoft - its in their interests - but its not ok for the vast mass of us, who need every user we can get. I'm not here to plug Microsoft's products or Firefox or Opera - they'll have to do it without me. I'm here to develop my own business and those of my clients, and they need to have sites that are workable and practical for as many of their users as possible. I have yet to find a better way to achieve this than to omit all proprietary browser features and stick to valid, compliant code. Why do large organisations not switch to standards compliance? Well some do. A splendid case in point is the Sydney Morning Herald, which site we've heard about and witnessed the change right here on this list. Through that we know that it's not a trivial matter to change a large system to or from anything. At MXDU this year, Macromedia's site manager (was it Sean Cornfield?) talked about how Macromedia is moving towards compliance. He said they have 40,000 pages to convert, and they have to do it in stages as they get to review each part of the site. It's a massive job and they just don't have the money to dedicate to switching to standards compliance if there isn't any other reason to touch that part of the site. SO he said their site is moving towards compliance but will take time to get there. Sounds like a sensible view to me. The author of that site's an idiot. No he's not ... he's a expletive deleted idiot. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lea de Groot Sent: Monday, 14 June 2004 9:09 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Interesting reading On Mon, 14 Jun 2004 20:00:45 +1000, Marc Greenstock wrote: http://www.decloak.com/Dev/CSSTables/CSS_Tables_05.aspx Gentlemen, The article in question uses inflammatory language and fails to back up its claims. Might I suggest we retain our professional demeanour and not sink to the author's level? or Mind your language, please! Lea * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] file extensions
I can't think of a single site anywhere on the web that's not using file extensions for the images on the site. Does anyone know of one? And in a shared hosting environment, where you have asp, asp.net, php, cfm, html and shtml pages all residing and running simultaneously, I can't see how it would work, in practical terms. Yes, I know about content negotiation - NOW - but IIS and Apache (the two most prominent web servers) don't set up that way, few host administrators would know how to do this, and all the development tools load their options and config files based on the file extension. This would surely be the LEAST observed standard anywhere on the web wouldn't it? Or have I been living in a different world? As it happens, I tend to use non-specific urls myself where I can, but because I want it easy to remember. For example I'll have the url on my bluegrass Australia site so that a section is in its own folder. Therefore to access the magazine section the url is http://bluegrass.org.au/magazine/. But it's not for any standards reason - I had no idea until today that standard existed. But simply for reasons that it's easier for people to remember. For the same reason we set our sites up so they don't need any 'www' (but work equally well with the 'www') Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anders Nawroth Sent: Sunday, 13 June 2004 7:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] file extensions Michael Kear wrote: What's the point of doing this? Saving 4 characters per image as a way of reducing bandwidth? Is there any other purpose? */ /* There is another purpose. See this W3C Note: http://www.w3.org/TR/chips/#gl3 [snip] * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] file extensions
But in a shared environment, which is where the vast majority of sites actually are, all the users on a site would have to stop using .CFM extensions on their coldfusion pages if you were sending .cfm pages to PHP. That just isn't practical. And it would PREVENT people moving their coldfusion sites into that system without extensive re-writing. Not just changing filenames, but also all cfincludes references, all custom tag calls, CFC component calls etc. Similarly the other way, if you configured the system to process .PHP files through the cold fusion server. Everyone would have to stop using .php extensions for their php files, thus preventing anyone copying a .php site into that system without re-writing it. Most of the dynamic sites on the net are actually in shared hosting environments, not on owned or dedicated servers. I cant see the point in this standard. It seems to offer a tiny advantage for a vast cost, if all you want to do is get rid of .cfm extensions on file names, and .gif and .jpg extensions on images. On the other hand if what you want to get rid of is the ?randID=12324587clientID3212345 kind of thing, then dump PHP and go with ColdFusion. It's a piece of cake. There's no need to pass variables from page to page as a URL string unless you want to. You can do it internally using two methods - session variables or client variables. But to get back to the standards aspect - I cant see the point in having non-standard installations in a shared hosting environment just to meet this W3C standard, which doesn't seem to provide any benefits apart from saving a few bytes in bandwidth. Cheers Mike Kear -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Ellis Sent: Sunday, 13 June 2004 9:58 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] file extensions Hi The portability of URI's is an important point here: as discussed, if a web developer wants to move from X to Y server side language yet retain the URL stucture then this is the way to go, in Apache it's just a simple matter of telling it how to handle certain extension-less files. That said, you should be able to set up a server to handle PHP scripts with .cfm extensions via the PHP interpreter and vice versa (as an example). I wrote an article over at the Sydney PHP Group on doing this with Apache, shared hosting or otherwise, questions welcome offlist or post to that group. http://sydney.ug.php.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=61 HTH James * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] file extensions
Whats the point of doing this? Saving 4 characters per image as a way of reducing bandwidth? Is there any other purpose? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christopher Kennon Sent: Sunday, 13 June 2004 9:28 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] file extensions Hi, Below is the url and excerpt from the passage in question. I've tried it and it works. The images are displayed, but someone looking over the code commented that it appeared that an image was used, but the extension was missing. Thus the question was inspired. Chris http://www.sitepoint.com/article/effective-website-acceleration/2
[WSG] Floats changing when mouseover How to fix?
I know I've seen the answer to this somewhere but I'm blowed if I can find where now.. On my page at http://bluegrass.org.au/Magazine/newreleases/index.cfm. Using IE6, when you put the mouse over the link more . the float containing the image reduces in size to match the 'more' link. Then when you mouseover the image, which is also a link, you see the whole image again. (the CSS is at http://bluegrass.org.au/styles/Bluegrass_Australia.css ) Can anyone tell me what to do about it please? Or point me to the article about this that I can't find now? Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] How to Make Your Web Site Work with Windows XP Service Pack 2
Not many of these restrictions affect me, because I do most of my dynamic things on the server side with ColdFusion. But I read this with some alarm - does it mean that the DHTML menus I spent so much time getting to work will cease dropping down? [quote] Q: What does Internet Explorer consider a pop-up window? Internet Explorer will attempt to block any window opened automatically from: A script, with the exception of createPopup(). Modal and modeless dialogs. DHTML elements overlapping content on the page [/quote] Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] How to Make Your Web Site Work with Windows XP Service Pack 2
So James I have to go off and sign on for yet ANOTHER forum (I already have more than 800 emails a day to wade through, and 8 forums to check each day) just to ask if my DHTML menus are going to break here??? Surely there's someone here who knows the answer. How hard is it to just answer the question instead of starting a debate about whether or not to discuss it here or whether I should pack my bags and move to another forum. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Ellis Sent: Thursday, 10 June 2004 1:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] How to Make Your Web Site Work with Windows XP Service Pack 2 Hi all This would be better discussed on a place like the Sitepoint.com forums, as it's about general web development. Having a discussion about where you have sent screenshots is not for the list, it's for the person you sent the screenshots to. Cheers James * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Which editors do you guys recommend?
Title: [WSG] Which editors do you guys recommend?
For those that use notepad and type
everything in by hand, theres a far better answer for you
Ultraedit (ultraedit.com). It is a simple text editor, but it has syntax
highlighting, can handle files as big as your whole hard drive, can edit
hex, you can cut and paste in columns as well as blocks of text. You can
search and replace over whole groups of files as well as folders. You can
search and replace on text or on hex as well, so for example you could replace
all the carriage returns or tabs with something else. I never use notepad for
anything any more. And it has a FTP function so you can upload your files
directly from ultraedit. Its ultraedit for me.
But for my normal use, I use dreamweaver
MX2004 usually in code view. It has tag completion and hints, so itll
tell me what the attributes are for any tag as I start to type it, itll
correct syntax errors if I want it to, and a click on the up arrow and the file
Im editing is loaded onto the site. I don't have to keep remembering
the passwords, addresses etc of all the sites Im working on.
And for CSS editing, I use topstyle. There
might be better ones, but I started using it a few years ago and never saw the
need to switch away.
Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean M. Hall AKA Dante
Sent: Sunday, 6 June 2004 3:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Which editors do
you guys recommend?
I've been searching for a good editor (don't say BBEdit)
that has syntax highlighting and will not insert stuff (like if I type '(' in a
script tag the editor will insert a ')' right after it, I don't like that).
Until then it's note pad for me.
RE: [WSG] Which editors do you guys recommend?
G'day Kym, Anything to help a fellow traveller. Now if only I could find some contract work to employ my skills gainfully. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kym Kovan Sent: Sunday, 6 June 2004 4:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Which editors do you guys recommend? Hi Mike, You just saved me a heap of typing :-) Its Ditto to for me, plus a bit: ULtraEdit has to be one of the best text editors about DreamWeaver when doing designy type stuff HomeSite+ for pounding out code (my main task in life g) TopStyle for the CSS And responding to Dante's comment, both Dreamweaver and Homesite have the tag-completion you mentioned, and don't like, as well as the tag attribute hint functions that Mike mentioned and in both cases you can turn it off :-) -- Yours, Kym * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
Here's an interesting article on the implications for a web development shop on using web standards for development rather than the antique table-based methods we all used to use. This author compares the time taken to develop a site then and now, after changing to using standards. If this doesn't convince a web professional to take a serious look at these standards nothing will. http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/archives/web_standards_roi.php Some people are interested in accessibility issues. Others are interested in standards. Others are interested in faster sites. But if I said I have a revolutionary technique that will reduce the time and therefore the cost of building a web site to a THIRD of what it probably takes now, you'd be interested. If you thought this claim had any credibility you'd be very interested indeed or you wouldn't deserve to be in business. Here's someone else corroborating what I've been saying for months now. http://www.7nights.com/asterisk/archives/web_standards_roi.php Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
I don't know I've never read it. You go to Maccaws.org and you have to go off to another link to read anything useful. Like the old days of the portals. No one had any content, only links to more sites that are themselves just pages of more links. I can't be bothered going from link to link to link to link to find something worth reading. If a poster cant be bothered putting a link to actual content, why should I have to bother? Why would I have to hunt out what on earth Maccaws.org means in order to find out if I want to read it or not. If you see my post about the other article, you'll see in my post why I think it's worth reading. You don't have to go any further to decide if you want to follow it up yourself. Maccaws.org tells me nothing except that it's perhaps a site about South American parrots. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of t94xr.net.nz webmaster Sent: Thursday, 3 June 2004 10:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards. If this doesn't convince a web professional to take a serious look at these standards nothing will. and MACCAWS ( www.MACCAWS.org ) doesnt do this? Camz * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
I've since taken a quick look at macaws.org and at a cursory speed-scan there doesn't seem to be anything in that article called What Every Web Site Owner Should Know About Standards: A Web Standards Primer at http://www.maccaws.org/kit/primer/ that has anything about the business reasons for a web development shop why they should bother to learn it. The article I'm referring to in this thread is about the business reasons why web developers ought to be learning these things - namely that you can produce sites in half the time or less. And maintain them in the future with far fewer man-hours. And the are numbers to back it up. Maccaws.org doesn't seem to have any reference to the business of web development. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of t94xr.net.nz webmaster Sent: Thursday, 3 June 2004 10:22 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards. If this doesn't convince a web professional to take a serious look at these standards nothing will. and MACCAWS ( www.MACCAWS.org ) doesnt do this? Camz * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
Jesse you are obviously not a business owner or a general manager. And if you are, you're not thinking like a business owner. If you can produce work far faster now than you could before, you can charge less. But that's only one of your options. You charge less if you need a competitive advantage. On the other hand you might want charge the same amount for the site, and keep the additional profit. It's what happens when business reduce costs without reducing output. It's called improving productivity. In this case you'd be getting twice as much from your developers, without having to stand behind them with a whip. Or you can pass some of the saving on to the clients and keep some yourself. There are a lot of options. The point is, when you can produce anything faster, cheaper and better, you are improving your business and you have choices. SO far most of the standards discussion has been about the 'better' part - producing better web sites - and that's very important. But here's an article that describes how using standards lets you produce sites faster and cheaper as well. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J Rodgers Sent: Thursday, 3 June 2004 12:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards. Hi, new to the list but I couldn't resist this one as I have seen this first hand... The fact it takes less time and saves the client money could be the reason many designers don't want to leave tables behind. Think about the money a shop would lose? They would have to get more clients and improve overall. Its not right, but I have argued with many designers that have said 'standards compliance will cost more.' I wish I could charge $100 an hour.. Stupid salary :( Jesse * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards.
You're right, the sarcasm was lost on me. My bad. Sorry. Cheers Mike Kear -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J Rodgers Sent: Thursday, 3 June 2004 1:12 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] At last - here are the dollars in web standards. Actually I was thinking like the consultant that tried to pull the 'standards cost more' argument with two non-profits I do volunteer work for. The article you link to shows exactly what I have been saying for a long time.. I think scarcasm was lost in my post. Moving to XHTML/CSS will save me and my team a load of time and make life easier.. Saves me loads of time daily with small projects. Jesse * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] OT: need help from a mac user please
This is off topic so please respond off-list, but I need some help from Mac users I have a client who sees an error that I cant produce. When I go to http://nqpropertyreview.com and click enter, I am presented with a login screen, which is whats required. So are all of the 50 people so far that Ive asked to check it. But the client doesnt. The client sees an error message saying something like [quote] Cannot decode string , The input string is not base-64 encoded [/quote] The only difference I can find between what I have and the client, is that the client is using Mac with IE5.2. Id really like some Mac users to take a look at the site and see if they get the same error, to see if we can locate whats causing the problem. The page validates so its nothing to do with the HTML.. The error is to do with the server side scripting in ColdFusion but the error message doesnt appear in the ColdFusion documentation either. If you do get the error, please cut and paste the whole error message and send it to me We now return you to our regular WSG programming. Thank you for your patience. Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com
RE: [WSG] legal requirements for accessability
There's a saying in the sales business (/me thinking back all those years to when I was a sales trainer):Sell them what they want, and all the rest comes along for free. If the customer loves the car's hot stereo, sell them the hot stereo and the rest of the car comes along for free. IF the house buyer falls in love with the kitchen, let them have the kitchen, and the rest of the house comes along for free. IF they want an accessible site, sell them an accessible site, and the good design and easy navigation comes along for free. If they want a web presence, sell them a web presence, and the accessible design, good layout, easy navigation comes along for free. SO it's your job when you first meet a prospective client to find out what it is they want. And what they need. (Not necessarily the same things) Then you sell them that. When you build it, you build it as well as it's possible to do, given your cost and time parameters. Just because the client wanted this and that and something else, without mentioning standards compliance, doesn't mean you cant build a site like that. When you get a house built, you tell the builder you want this room, that cupboard, this kind of roof, that kind of bathroom, but he still builds structural strength, water proofing, adequate foundations etc in even if you didn't specify it in your requirements. And as to cost, I've found that building to standards has REDUCED my time (and therefore my cost) to build a site. By forcing discipline on my html code, and completely separating content and presentation, it's made many things more simple. And since the ongoing maintenance of the site is FAR easier, it's going to make the cost of ownership of a site over the whole life much lower than it would otherwise have been.It's my opinion that if you are losing business because you are quoting on standards-compliant sites, then you're doing it all wrong. Standards compliance should give you a competitive advantage over the other mugs who haven't learned about standards yet. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lachlan Hardy Sent: Wednesday, 26 May 2004 5:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] legal requirements for accessability [snip] So, please, folks, while we're here : How do you get your clients to care about accessibility? Are you dealing with folks large enough that they actually consider the chance that they might be sued, or do they actually care if people can use their site? The same goes for standards, actually. I understand the concept of just doing it. And that's what I do. Until the client asks about such and such and I let slip either of those cursed words : 'standards' or 'accessibility'. Whoa. Reign in there, fella! Who told you to go around doing things like this? How much is that costing me? Every time I have quoted for a job by mentioning standards or accessibility, my quote has been rejected. If I don't mention it in the quote and it comes up later, I'm royally stuffed I may be drifting off the thread here. Hell, I may have cut it! But I feel the point is pertinent : my clients don't care about the legalities, and if I try to push the point, they are no longer my client So, how do the rest of you deal with this? * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Width difference in IE - OK in Firefox
Im stumped at what Ive done wrong here. Ive copied (or at least I THOUGHT I copied!) a structure from another site that worked, but its playing out wrong for IE6. can anyone tell me what Im doing wrong here please? The sites at http://paraklesis.com.au and the style sheet is at http://paraklesis.com.au/styles/paraklesis.css It looks fine in Firefox, and Netscape 7.1 but not in IE6. Whats happening in IE is that the outer container is too wide on the right (its supposed to be 597pixels wide, which is the width of the heading graphic). Its 597 in the other browsers, but in IE its 614px wide. And despite being wider, it still squeezes the right sidebar out and forces it to float below the left content box. Ive been staring at this wretched thing for hours now and I guess Im too close to it now to see whats wrong. Can anyone see what Ive done? (oh yes, I know the content is far too long and the client has lots of work to do in that area and I have some work to do on the floats for the menu buttons. But its the bigger boxes Im working on now.). Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com
RE: [WSG] Width difference in IE - OK in Firefox
Title: Message I found it!!! Thanks for your suggestion David, but that wasnt it. However it did prompt me to go looking at the site where I got the original inspiration from (translation I went back ot the site I stole it from in the first place before I tinkered with it beyond recognition to all but the original designer). The problem was the left margin setting for the right hand sidebar. It was set to 420px from the left, which put that box too far to the right, and it was forcing the right side of the main container box out to the right in IE. It just overlaid the edge of that box in the other browsers, and since it was transparent, I didnt see it overlapping in NN and FF. The solution: reduce the left margin on the sidebar to 410px and it was done. As a result Ive learned this lesson: When youre laying out the basic blocks for your page, its a good idea to give each a different colour background, so you can see just where all the boxes are falling, which ones are touching and which arent. When you have everything laid out how you want, and floating in the right places, THEN change the background colours to white or transparent or whatever your design calls for. Using different colour backgrounds is better than the technique Ive been using up to now (giving each a border of a different colour) because borders take up space. Background colours don't take up horizontal or vertical space, so therefore don't affect the way the boxes float and/or line up against each other. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David McDonald Sent: Monday, 24 May 2004 11:53 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] Width difference in IE - OK in Firefox Try using display:inline on the floated element in question. It's most probably one of the IE bugs listed here: http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer.html Regards, David McDonald Web Designer http://www.davidmcdonald.org Southbank, Melbourne Australia
RE: [WSG] WSG Redesign Closed
Well I for one thought it was a worthwhile project, and a good thing to try. I didn't submit a design because I don't put myself in the same class as many of the others on this list. I wouldn't want to have my design work judged alongside professional designers. Now if you're talking about code and functionality and stuff, well my professional reputation will put me in the running I reckon, but not design skills. I'm here on this list as a learner, and I'm learning as fast as I can. But able to contribute a classy design as the showcase of this group? Not me. Couldn't do it. And specially not using the CSS/Accessibility techniques we're all learning. I'd venture to suggest there were quite a few of the members of this list who were in the same category as me. The impression I have is that there aren't all that many of the 600 list members who'd say they were fully conversant with all the techniques advocated by this group. Don't regard the response as lack of interest. Call it lack of expertise on the part of the list members with techniques that while familiar to you, are new and revolutionary to most of the web development world. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Firminger Sent: Saturday, 22 May 2004 2:29 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] WSG Redesign Closed Hi Members, Voting has now closed for the WSG design competition. For your information, here are the top 3 results: Voting (total 144 votes): 69 votes (47.9%) - Russ Weakley 35 votes (24.3%) - Current Site 17 votes (11.8%) - Lindsay Evans Rating (sum of points awarded -2 to 2): 154 - Russ Weakley 61 - Lindsay Evans 39 - Current Site * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Lines on top - anyone see why?
Thanks for the idea, Martin. That did the trick, although not in the #heading selector, but in the dl selector, which is the object that contains all those floated elements. The #heading is only the top component of the floated box. Thanks a lot, it's been niggling away at me for ages, that one. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of martin janner Sent: Wednesday, 19 May 2004 3:51 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Lines on top - anyone see why? Michael Kear skrev: Thanks anyway. I guess no one has any ideas how I can make the lines go underneath the floated box on my page in IE. Try position:relative; on the floated box(#heading) / m a r t i n * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Lines on top - anyone see why?
Ive added a specials box to my auslegs site using that cute round-corner technique we read about on this list a few days ago. (Mountaintop Corners : http://www.alistapart.com/articles/mountaintop/) Im really pleased with how it works and how good it looks. Except for one page. Can anyone see why the grey horizontal borders on the news page at http://auslegs.com.au/news/index.cfm are going on top of the specials box instead of underneath or stopping to the left? The CSS is at http://auslegs.com.au/styles/Auslegs.css Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com
[WSG] Lines on top - anyone see why?
Second try I didnt see anyone post about this yesterday everyone was too busy debating PHP and _javascript_ instead. Perhaps today then .. Ive added a specials box to my auslegs site using that cute round-corner technique we read about on this list a few days ago. (Mountaintop Corners : http://www.alistapart.com/articles/mountaintop/) Im really pleased with how it works and how good it looks. Except for one page. Can anyone see why the grey horizontal borders on the news page at http://auslegs.com.au/news/index.cfm are going on top of the specials box instead of underneath or stopping to the left? The CSS is at http://auslegs.com.au/styles/Auslegs.css Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com
RE: [WSG] Lines on top - anyone see why?
I should have been a little more specific. Sorry . It looks fine in Firefox to me too. However the client looks at his site in IE6, and that's where the problem manifests itself. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 19 May 2004 8:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Lines on top - anyone see why? Internet Explorer sucks at rendering floats correctly. It looks fine in Mozilla/Firefox. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Lines on top - anyone see why?
Thanks anyway. I guess no one has any ideas how I can make the lines go underneath the floated box on my page in IE. I don't suppose it's impossible? Surely not. I can't use percentages in the float because it has to be fixed 130px width, because of the graphics creating the round corners. I guess I'll have to tell the client that the design isn't possible and we'll have to change it. Pity. First time I've asked a question here and had no answers except one that I can't use. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 19 May 2004 8:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Lines on top - anyone see why? Internet Explorer sucks at rendering floats correctly. It looks fine in Mozilla/Firefox. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Tables are bad because...
Sorry but there isnt a place for font tags. font has been deprecated and sooner or later it'll cease working. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Tables are bad because... El vie, 14-05-2004 a las 08:55, Nick Lo escribió: Although as I'd already posted today... http://www.mezzoblue.com/archives/2004/05/13/gasp_tables/index.php After the 'there's a place for i and b' and 'there's a place for layout tables' posts, i feel i should be writing my own 'there's a place for font' post :o) * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign
AH, you're like me Kay - you see something cool then you start looking around for a project to use it on. Where can I do that? I have to have a site that's ready for re-development again surely! Then for me, when the time comes to do a brand new site, I find all those ideas vanish from my mind and all I can think of is a boring site just like all the others I've done. It can take AGES to think of a concept for a new site. How do you 'designer people' handle this? Do you keep it all in your head? Or do you have some kind of notebook or snippet system to hold all those neat tricks somewhere for when you can use them another day? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kay Smoljak Sent: Friday, 14 May 2004 1:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign New redesign for digital web, looks cool. www.digital-web.com Wow. Nice, not really sure about how the different areas of the page gel at higher resolutions... but so many nice bits. The current section indicators are cute, the what's new title rocks, the tabs are cool. And somewhere, SOMEWHERE, by the end of today, I swear I will have pull quotes in little rounded panels. Somewhere :) K. -- Kay Smoljak Senior Developer/QC Leader/Search Optimisation PerthWeb Pty Ltd - http://www.perthweb.com.au/ Ph: 08 9226 1366 - Fax: 08 9226 1375 * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] digital web magazine redesign
Justin French said: ...But personally, I'd find very little satisfaction drawing inspiration directly from bookmarks. I'd much rather take every pull-quote I've ever seen, throw them all in a blender, and come up with my OWN solution appropriate to the job at hand I know what you mean. That's the approach I've been using up to now. But getting a design is like pulling teeth for me. I know I'm not a designer or an artist (and I don't play one on tv either), but I am trying to see if I can learn to improve the process somehow to get better results faster (or is it less slow?) So I was hoping I'd find out you 'proper' designers have a trick other than its all in the talent and creative side of your brain, son! Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority
Look in the meta tags ... [quote] META content=Microsoft FrontPage 5.0 name=GENERATOR [/quote] HAR!! HAR!! HAR!! HARGUFFAW!!! Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lea de Groot Sent: Sunday, 2 May 2004 4:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Australian Communications Authority On Sun, 2 May 2004 16:05:53 +1000, Christiaan Knol wrote: 2. Safari - NO navigation Oh It was my browser that was the problem. Silly me, I was thinking that it was the site.. g * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] target=_blank substitute
You're right, Patrick, but life is a series of compromises. I spend a lot of effort in getting users to my site, and I don't want to go sending them away again with a link on my site. If they want to click on a link external to my site, they get a new window so their existing window stays in my site. It's not accessible, that's true, but if they stay inside my site, no new windows open. And I'm not going to go sending 97% of users out of my site with a link, just so 3% can have an accessible access to that one or two links. We're talking about a minority of links on the site that lead outside the site, and a minority of users who are affected. So I think it's a fair compromise, to make external links less accessible. One of the most important aspects of a site's success is getting traffic and keeping it in the site, and we ought not to lose sight of that in our pursuit of accessibility. What use is a fully accessible site that gets pulled down because it's a failure on economic or other grounds? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Griffiths Sent: Sunday, 18 April 2004 7:16 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] target=_blank substitute This is both an accessible and valid method: Valid yes, but accessible? I click on a link. I look at the page. I try to click on the back button. What? Why doesn't this work? Oh. Because it's opened in a new window. Close window. Return to the site (and page) I want to be on. This whole malarkey makes the site less accessible for me, let alone for a person who can't actually see what's going on. [snip] Patrick Griffiths (PTG) http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/ http://www.htmldog.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] target=_blank substitute
Patrick - A practical example which will serve to illustrate my point. Go to the Microsoft.com site, and decide whether to install any update. (Choose any of them, they're all just as bad as each other.) In order to install this update, you have to have this other update installed. Oh... do I have that installed? Better click on that link to read what it was about. Nope. Never heard of that one. But before I can install that update, I have to have this other one installed. Have I got that one installed? Who the hell knows. Better click on this link to find out what this previous update was all about. But there are implications with installing that update, because there's a link to read this before installing this update. Click on that link. Now where are you? Can you install that first update or not? Navigating anywhere in Microsoft's site is a nightmare. You go down a maze of links until its almost impossible to work your way back where you came from. You mention the 'back' button. What about alt-tab? I use that far more than 'back'. The issue is not as clear-cut as you seem to say. I'm not saying my way is the 'right' way and others are 'wrong'. Just that it's like most things on the web- there are several ways to do anything and pros and cons for each. In my case, I get someone into my site, and I don't want to see them heading off again by just clicking on a tool my site gives them to leave. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Griffiths Sent: Sunday, 18 April 2004 8:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] target=_blank substitute You're right, Patrick, but life is a series of compromises. I spend a lot of effort in getting users to my site, and I don't want to go sending them away again with a link on my site. If they want to click on a link external to my site, they get a new window so their existing window stays in my site. It's not accessible, that's true, but if they stay inside my site, no new windows open. And I'm not going to go sending 97% of users out of my site with a link, just so 3% can have an accessible access to that one or two links. OK. Let's forget about accessibility for a moment then. The back button is one of the most commonly used navigational tools. By opening new windows you disable that feature. You're hindering usability and actually making it more effort for people to come back to your site. It's just not possible to lock people into your site. If they want to go away from it, they're going to. If they want to come back to it, that's great but keeping your site in the background isn't going to help that at all - they know they should be able to reach it by a 'click' or two of the back button. Patrick Griffiths (PTG) http://www.htmldog.com/ptg/ http://www.htmldog.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer
I think there must be something wrong with your email service Darian because I haven't seen it yet. And it's the day AFTER tomorrow already. Cheers Mike Kear -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Darian Cabot Sent: Saturday, 3 April 2004 9:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] hiring a standards-savvy designer Sorry. Everytime I reply it takes a long time to appear in the thread. I dunno if it's my mail service or what, but that message I wrote didn't appear for ages. (_) ...you might see this one by tomorrow?? :P and by that time maybe it's also on the discussion board (-_-; ) Darian Cabot * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions?
G'day Brian, I'm assuming you're using a narrower monitor than mine, or lower resolution so your screen real estate is less than mine. I've now laid it out differently so it's not so wide. Also I've added the italics and heading text for you. g And now the tool will accept 3 digit abbreviated colours, although I haven't added checking to make sure the colour numbers are valid yet. Let no one say we don't listen at AFP Webworks!! http://afpwebworks.com/colourschemer/ Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of theGrafixGuy Sent: Wednesday, 31 March 2004 5:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions? Looks good! Though for sake of presentation style, I'd have it layout the results in a more formatted manner. The results page looks ad-hoc if you know what I mean. Also, if easily done, I'd like to see header examples as well as bold and italic - but that is just me. Brian * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions?
Yes, good idea Leo. I think theres a little flash gadget you can add to coldfusion pages that does that. Ill have a look for it. Thanks. Cheers Mike Kear From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leo J. O'Campo Sent: Thursday, 1 April 2004 6:20 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions? Mike I think it would be more useful if it had a color picker along with the hex number input. Using hex number input alone doesn't work for those who don't know the hex numbers they need or would like to browser color schemes. I have been using hex values for color long before the web existed and I still don't remember which values belong to what colors. I use a donationware program called iColors on the Mac and it is a great little single purpose color app but I'm not sure if it's available on the PC. It allows you to select any pixel on the screen in any app and will show you the color and hex value. Leo On Wednesday, March 31, 2004, at 01:24 AM, Michael Kear wrote: For my own benefit, I have been developing a colour schemer tool, and Ive put it on my web site for others to use, comment about, help me improve. There are lots of colour development tools around, I know, but I got into doing my own because all the tools I have known about use _javascript_ and the scheme cant be saved. For example theres a great one at http://www.pixy.cz/apps/barvy/index-en.html but if you click anywhere on the page, or try to cut and paste the colour numbers, it changes the scheme and you cant get back again easily. The only way to record the scheme you work on so hard, is to get a pen and paper and write down all the colour numbers. So I started developing my own, so I can produce a chart for each site Im working on with the colours Ive decided on for the site listed out. Ive put it on my web site and Id really appreciate if you could go have a look, and let me know if theres any way I can make it more useful, any features I should add. (One feature Im going to add is to have it email the resulting plan to you when you click a button, so you have a chart to use as a reference). http://afpwebworks.com/colourschemer/ is the address. (note the Australian COLOUR not the American COLOR) Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com
RE: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions?
Title: Message Thanks Leslie. I did know that table didnt display properly in some browsers. Its a footer file that dates back to 18 months ago antique. Im rebuilding my site using a new CMS Im writing and a shopping cart Im writing, so I didnt pay much attention to that part of it. However I want to package this up as a free utility for coldfusion developers, and I have to write a new footer for that purpose. So I think Ill put it on the page you have been looking at too. My new site is going to be XHTML1.0 Strict if I can get it that far. Itll depend on being able to get a WYSIWYG inline editor thatll produce valid XHTML code. Certainly Im going to lose all tables except for tabular data (At the moment only one page on the whole site qualifies for that). This page doesnt have any tables either, except in the footer. Thanks for looking at it, and thanks for the nice comments. Does anyone have any ideas of ways to make the gadget more useful for design purposes? IN my case, Im so artistically challenged, I have to keep charts to show me which colours to use, or my work will end up like a rainbow (see an earlier page also my work but dates back 18 months - at http://www.hawkradio.org.au/bluegrass and youll see what I mean. I think Ill use that page as a before page in a design class. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia AFP Webworks http://afpwebworks.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Leslie Riggs Sent: Thursday, 1 April 2004 1:28 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions? http://afpwebworks.com/colourschemer/ is the address. (note the Australian COLOUR not the American COLOR) NICE. Handy tool! One detail that I noticed while looking at itusing Firefox 0.8, Moz 1.6and Netscape 7.1,has to do with the table that contains the three images that appears below the two text input boxes. When I first opened the page, it looks fine, sits pretty, all centered and everything. However, after entering my two color choices, the page comes back with the chart (very nice, by the way, I like it) and the table does not sit centeredbelow the chart anymore. It's pushed off to the right,looks like it's on the baseline next to the chart. Opera 7.23 shows that table below the chart, aligned left. IE6 looks just fine, table below the chart, centered. Just thought you'd want to know. -Leslie Riggs
[WSG] New Colour Schemer - draft - any suggestions?
For my own benefit, I have been developing a colour schemer tool, and Ive put it on my web site for others to use, comment about, help me improve. There are lots of colour development tools around, I know, but I got into doing my own because all the tools I have known about use _javascript_ and the scheme cant be saved. For example theres a great one at http://www.pixy.cz/apps/barvy/index-en.html but if you click anywhere on the page, or try to cut and paste the colour numbers, it changes the scheme and you cant get back again easily. The only way to record the scheme you work on so hard, is to get a pen and paper and write down all the colour numbers. So I started developing my own, so I can produce a chart for each site Im working on with the colours Ive decided on for the site listed out. Ive put it on my web site and Id really appreciate if you could go have a look, and let me know if theres any way I can make it more useful, any features I should add. (One feature Im going to add is to have it email the resulting plan to you when you click a button, so you have a chart to use as a reference). http://afpwebworks.com/colourschemer/ is the address. (note the Australian COLOUR not the American COLOR) Cheers Mike Kear AFP Webworks Windsor, NSW, Australia http://afpwebworks.com
