Re: [WSG] How do you cater to users with disabilities?
On 26/08/11 5:15 PM, Jay Tanna wrote: Personally I don't go out of my way to do anything special. I design the site as it comes and if some people can't access it - tough luck. There is no point in spending any additional time or money in buying specialist tools for people who are challenged in some form! Some people on certain forums call me dragon because of my no nonsense views and I don't normally let them down!. ^ ^ This would be what's termed a troll, folks. Let's just leave well alone :) Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Webstock - early-bird registrations close Friday
Hi everyone Yes, a shameless plug, but, if you're interested in attending Webstock: http://www.webstock.org.nz/ and I do hope you may be, early-bird pricing ends this Friday. Regards Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Launch of Webstock 2011
We have just launched Webstock 2011 http://webstock.org.nz. So if you feel like traveling to New Zealand for an awesome conference, we'd love to see you :) Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Advanced Javascript course (Sydney)?
On 17/09/10 4:36 PM, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote: Hi all, I am trying to find someone who can hold a one-day advanced Javascript course but have no luck. Thomas Fuchs and Amy Hoy do an online advanced Javascript class: http://javascriptmasterclass.com/ I can recommend then as really great teachers, although haven't done this course. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] JavaScript courses in Sydney
David McKinnon wrote: Hi, Can anyone recommend a good JavaScript course in Sydney? I've been teaching myself for a few years, so I have a reasonable idea how to write unobtrusive JavaScript and have mucked around with jQuery, but feel I need something practical to really consolidate my knowledge and move forward. Does anyone know a good, solid one- or two-day course? Or come across to NZ in Feb and have a workshop with John Resig himself :) http://www.webstock.org.nz/10/programme/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] [Conference plug] Webstock 2010
A quick, and shameless, plug that we've just launched Webstock 2010 http://webstock.org.nz If you're from outside NZ and thinking of attending, drop me a line. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Webstock 09 recordings available
Hi Just a quick note that all recordings from the Webstock 09 conference, and much more, are now available online at the Webstock site: http://www.webstock.org.nz/blog/2009/the-webstock-recordings/ Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] [Shameless Plug] Webstock 09 launch
A quick plug that we're really pleased to announce the launch of Webstock 09 www.webstock.org.nz In Wellington, New Zealand from 16-20 February. Speakers include: Russ Weakley (top of the list since this is his mailing list :) Bruce Sterling Ze Frank Jane McGonigal Adrian Holovaty Heather Champ Annalee Newitz Cameron Adams Matt Jones Would love to see people from outside NZ attend - February is mid-summer and lovely time for a holiday to go with a conference - so don't hesitate to drop me a line if you're interested in attending. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] form from the 7th level of hell
kevin mcmonagle wrote: joseph i keep my brightness at 0, and thought it matched. thanks for the tip Joseph Taylor wrote: Kevin, If I may make a recommendation, adjust the background color of your cells to match the bottom color of your background gradients so when text gets enlarged it still looks smooth inside the cell rather than having the graphic cut off. Kevin Honestly, there is no reason to send a simple thanks to the *whole* list. Just a reply to the person you're thanking would be appropriate and wouldn't increase the email overload for thousands of others on this list. Thank you. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] PNG file sizes
Rachel May wrote: I created the PNGs in Photoshop (CS3) and just wondering if there are any better tools or ways of saving the PNGs for smaller file size, while still retaining their high quality?? http://www.ignite-it.co.uk/ Best. Graphics. Optimiser. PlugIn. That I've found anyway :) Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Webstock recordings now available
http://webstock.org.nz/past/recordings.php Enjoy! Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Spolsky on IE8 flag
Lea de Groot wrote: Joel Spolsky has published an ... interesting article http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/03/17.html I think it's a great article. And one the nails why this has created so much heat. Among many killer quotes, this to end things: You see? No right answer. As usual, the idealists are 100% right in principle and, as usual, the pragmatists are right in practice. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] standards-compliant designers
Mark Harris wrote: 1 crap designer can turn out many, many crap sites. The damage done by Sieglal's Designing Killer Websites (1st edition - he recanted later) was huge. Back when I was starting, I bought it and used it as a bible of what not to do, but many used it as a how-to guide, and some of those sites still exist. I find this whole argument really interesting. :) See, I think the benefits of what Siegal and his book (and lots of other stuff around the same time) far outweigh the costs. And yes, I can understand why he recanted the book, and yes it was good that he did. But, remember, the web was even more in its infancy than it is now. No one knew it would become what it is today - the book was published a year before Google started for example! One of the huge huge factors is the growth of the web was how easy it was/is for people to create web pages. I agree entirely that content is the key thing on the web, but it was the ability to do cool things visually (and otherwise) they drew a lot of people into building websites in the early days. It was just plain fun (and magic even!). And Siegal was a big part of showing people what could be done, pushing boundaries, making people excited etc. I don't think we'd be where we are today without that huge burst of creativity. And I think a part of what caused that was people not knowing any better. And none of the above is an argument against not using web standards today! Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] BBC in Beta
Felix Miata wrote: On 2007/12/17 15:30 (GMT) Paul McCann apparently typed: Heads up, the BBC has a new site in Beta. http://www.bbc.co.uk/home/beta Thoughts/praise/comments :) snip usual font stuff /snip Overall, better, but, worse than good. Oh come on, let's not be so blinkered that we can't appreciate really good work in most areas! I think it's a great homepage. - The information architecture looks good. Directory options at the bottom are a nice feature. - The Customise homepage feature looks easy and understandable - I love how they've borrowed the NetVibes things of allowing people to move content blocks around the page - I'm not a huge fan of the colours, but it's not overwhelming and easy to orientate yourself on the page - It's an interesting pared-down no-frills visual look - The markup looks reasonably good - Seems to work with javascript disabled Well done I say. And streets ahead of comparable websites in NZ (and I'd wager elsewhere in the world): http://tvnz.co.nz/ http://www.tv3.co.nz/ http://www.sky.co.nz/ Although not Radio NZ which is great: http://www.radionz.co.nz/ Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] [plug] Webstock - extension of early-bird registration
Just a quick plug that early-bird registration for Webstock www.webstock.org.nz has been extended for a week and now closes on Friday 1 December. If you're thinking of attending, now is a good chance to register! We'd love to see you here and will make you especially welcome if you're from outside of New Zealand Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] source order
Rick Lecoat wrote: Hi there; I'm currently laying down the markup for a site and have been pondering whether to put page content above navigation in the source. I often read that this is a good idea, and that makes perfect sense to me as long as there are skip links so that people can reach the navigation easily, but I recently read an article at usability.com.au that would seem to indicate that few users of screen readers expect this to be the case. Is there a prevailing wisdom in this matter? Content first? Or navigation first? I think the article http://usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm *is* the prevailing wisdom in this matter :) To quote from the summary: This paper proposes that when it comes to accessibility, the quality of the actual code on a web page is much more important than the ordering of the page content. Meaningful and appropriately marked up headings, descriptive link text and the clear identification of different levels of navigation, allow screen reader users to most effectively use their technologies when visiting a website. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
Chris Wilson wrote: A private company should be able to do whatever the hell they like. Suit is without merit and frivolous. What's next, suing vehicle manufacturers for not providing a braille manual? I'm all for accesability, but there is no reason it should be mandated, and lack of is in no was discriminatory. Thoughts like this really belong in the comments section of the article. They could join such pearls of wisdom as: With all the companies selling their wares on the web, why don't the blind just move on (no pun intended) to an organization that caters to their needs? I'm waiting for a blind man to sue Playboy or Hustler magazine for 'equal access' I wondered if an Iraqi war veteran who lost his sight in combat joins the class action suit would that cause the judge to reverse herself (she might implode if she had to rule in favor of a soldier)? But then I realized that the hypothetical wasn't realistic because no one brave enough to serve America in war could ever be so stupid as to associate with this moron class action. [Mike - yup, not only disabled, but stupid *and* unpatriotic.] As a part-time website developer I need to point out a couple of things that need to be understood on this matter. First of all ... Although I can fully understand the problems of accessing websites for those with eyesight problems this type of need is normally taken care of with software the individual purchases and installs on their own computer ... not by the website itself ... Secondly ... to carry this a step further ... to be fully compliant the software at the website end would be required to be able to translate and verbalize the text into every spoken language on the face of the earth ... not just the language in which the text was written bty the website owners ... fail to do that and you would face never-ending lawsuits from people that didn't speak English or whatever the native language of the website ... [Mike - see, the problem is this guy is only a part-time web developer. If he was full-time, he'd totally have time and be able to solve the verbalise the text into every spoken language problem.] The fall of Rome was accomplished largely by similar politically correct social miscreants. [Mike - this last one is my favourite. Maybe Al Qaeda is behind the lawsuit?] This article has totally made my day in the it's so bad all you can do is laugh mode. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard
If you are going to argue for standards and accesability, follow your own advice first. Captain table layout over here. You don't even have alt tags on your images. Hypocritical aren't ya? Taking bets as to how long before Goodwin's law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law kicks in. I figure Russ will shut things down before then, but otherwise, an hour at most? :) Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Positioning a background image
So, I want to position a background-image. It's a single px image. I want it to start on the left-hand-side of its containing div, and 120px from the top. I want it to repeat downwards. I use (showing in longhand): background-color: #fff; background-image: url(/images/content-bg.gif); background-repeat: repeat-y; background-position: 10px 120px; The image starts at the top of the containing div, not 120px down. If I change background-repeat to: background-repeat: no-repeat; it starts as I want, 120px from the top. Why can't it repeat-y, but stating 120px from the top? What gives here? Is this expected? A bug? Is what I want possible? Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Positioning a background image
E Michael Brandt wrote: This is not possible with current browser support of css. repeat-y means repeat upwards and downwards, not just downwards as you would like (and who wouldn't like that?). There may be a way in your page layout to use two wrappers, placing the bg in the lower one on your page. That's annoying! But thanks for the explanation :) Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] 5,000th member
Russ I just want to say, on behalf of all 5,000 members I'm sure, thanks to you and Peter for the list. It's been your vision and dedication that's kept it going and nourished, and what you've both done has been influential in ways I'm sure you don't realise. Well done! :) Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] [Plug] Webstock 08
Webstock 08 www.webstock.org.nz - Wellington, New Zealand 11-15 February - has just launched. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] FullCodePress - shameless plug
FullCodePress www.fullcodepress.com - the geek Olympics! This weekend (18/19 August) the New Zealand web team, the Code Blacks http://www.fullcodepress.com/2007/07/16/nz-team-bios/ will take on the Australian team http://www.fullcodepress.com/2007/07/12/aussie-team-bios/ in a 24hr challenge to build a website for a non-profit organisation. Each team has 7 members, covering the range of skills needed to build a website. The teams won't know who they're building the site for until the competition starts. They'll then face a caffeine-loaded 24 hours, at the end of which two non-profit organisations will have a fully-functional website. A judging panel will assess each site against a range of criteria, including standards-compliance, accessibility, copy writing and design. Action will be live on the 18th and 19th via YouTube, flickr, twitter and various blogs, with interviews, updates on progress and pictures of tired and stressed team members!. Look for the tag fullcodepress. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] markup for headline and tagline
What markup do you favor for a headline-tagline pair? (The second element could be a tagline or a byline.) h1Thundering Pigs/h1 citea blog by Bob/cite h1Thundering Pigs/h1 p class=taglinea blog by Bob/p h1Thundering Pigs/h1 div class=taglinea blog by Bob/div h1Thundering Pigs/h1 h2a blog by Bob/h2 I've usually gone: h1Thundering Pigs spana blog by Bob/span/h1 Who knew you could do things different ways? ;) Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] asp and accessibility
Bob Schwartz wrote: Do database driven, dynamically created asp pages pass muster for accessibility? What makes a site accessible? Being on this list, you surely have some idea of the answer. But to help, some of the key things are: - it has semantic, well-structured HTML - in particular in uses headings well, it marks up forms and data-tables with appropriate accessibility features and it validates (or mostly validates) - it provides options for users to jump to parts of a page eg navigation, content(ie, they don't have to tab through endless links) Note that nowhere in there does it mention asp. Or in fact any server-side programming/scripting language. In terms of accessibility, what matters is what's outputted to the browser (user agent), not what language the backend is written and developed in. Short answer to you question: they can and they should, but they may not. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] asp and accessibility
Bob Schwartz wrote: Yes, I have an idea, but never having seen any of the devices people talk about here, I often have doubts about what I think I have understood. Go here: http://www.webstock.org.nz/recordings.php and listen to / look at Darren Fittler's presentation. He's blind and uses a screen-reader. Very informative. Mike *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Recommendations for Usability sub-contractor; SEC=UNCLASSIFIED
I think best would be people reply to Sarah off-list, because: - we don't want to get into a debate as to which usability consultants are good or not, or even what makes a good usability consultant - those of us outside of Canberra have very limited interest in the subject :) Mike who, believe it or not, is actually on the WSG Core team *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Certified Usable
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: Sydney-based Usability company PTG has made the claim that they can certify the usability of their websites: http://www.usabilitynews.com/news/article3005.asp In an article on the AIMIA website, Craig Errey, manager of PTG, says we're apparently the first group, worldwide, who can confidently state whether a product is usable or not, and stand by that claim. http://www.aimia.com.au/i-cms?page=1755 Bleh! Little more than a company tyring to gain market share by dubious means. Certification and peusdo-science (90% of the sample of end users can complete 90% of key tasks and x minutes +/- 10%) provide the illusion of competency and rigour - it you need it to sell yourself, I inherently distrust you. Creating a certification and then being the one who decides on it? As a commerical venture? Conflict of interest anyone? Mike (feeling more cynical than usual) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Confusing the users... In Page Links
Herrod, Lisa wrote: This is really interesting article in that it contradicts findings of a recent study we completed just 2 weeks ago. We recently conducted user testing on a site with 22 participants, which is a significant sample (often we test with 8 to 12). The demographic was 18 skilled workers and 4 employers of skilled workers. Balance of gender, spread of age and technical ability (novice to expert). We received very positive feedback from the users about in-page links, so much so that it was reported as a positive attribute of the site. In fact, about 25% commented that they liked these links, without being asked. You usability people, always with the testing! You don't know there's a 99% chance Jakob is always right? :) Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Font Sizes - Best practice
Lachlan Hunt wrote: russ - maxdesign wrote: Could it not be argued that the unimportant legal content is sometimes more important to some users than the general content on the page? :) I'm sure there are some that think such notices should be shown in large bold letters, read and agreed to by every user prior to getting access to the rest of the site. They do exactly that on DVDs and Videos, often on porn sites where the user must agree to being over 18, etc. Russ I think you need to do some research on porn site best practices here and report back to the list :) Mike never visited a porn site so wouldn't know ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Driven?
Al Sparber wrote: I do agree that English is a crazy language - but that's as far as I go :-) The gent from Harvard provide the link to the W3C's definition of should, which seems to jive with mine. As for a standards-based page, agreeing that it is not a hard and fast rule that tables be banned for layout, can you present some logical arguments against this page - keeping strictly within the context of standards: http://www.projectseven.com/csslab/zealotry/linear_basics.htm Well, I don't think you can argue against it Al. The use of Bowie is a masterstroke. If you look at his various guises - vis: the thin white duke, aladdin sane, the young americans, his berlin period, for example - quite clearly they are thematic implementations of Bowie qua Bowie. How he's handled the ownership issues is a model of simultaneously working within, and subverting, the dominant capitalist paradigm. The importance of this, as you say, cannot be understated. Well done on presenting a complex notion so concisely. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web standards training course/events in Sydney next year?
Cade Whitbourn wrote: Anybody know of any good training courses or events that are being held in Sydney (or the other capital cities) next year on web standards/best practice web design/usability etc (other than WE06 and the regular wsg meetings?) Webstock http://www.webstock.org.nz/ Hey, it's in a capital city :) Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Forms, data tables and screenreaders
Hi I'm trying to recreate this visual look: http://testing.signify.co.nz/test.gif So, I'm thinking it's a form with two data tables inside the form. I've marked it up as such here: http://testing.signify.co.nz/test.html My limited understanding of screenreaders is that they have a mode for reading data tables and another mode for reading forms, and that there may be conflicts when trying to combine the two. Can anyone confirm if this is the case, and if so whether it would be triggered by my markup? Or, alternatively, whether there's a more appropriate markup to use? It may be possible to change the visual look if the markup just won't work with screenreaders, but I'd like to keep if possible as I think it works well visually. Thanks :) Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Next Wellington WSG meeting
Just a reminder that this will be on Thursday 17th November. More details here: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event50.cfm Free Webstock http://www.webstock.org.nz poster for everyone attending :) Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Webstock launches
http://www.webstock.org.nz Web Standards New Zealand is extremely pleased to announce the launch of Webstock - a web experience and conference - to be held 23-23 May 2006 in Wellington, New Zealand. Among the speakers are Kelly Goto, Doug Bowman (who both spoke at Web Essentials), Ben Goodger (lead engineer on Firefox) and Joel Spolsky (Joel on Software). We think it's going to be a wonderful time and extend an invitation to come to Wellington next year and enjoy the conference! Mike Brown for Web Standards New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards, accessability and validation?
Mark Harris wrote: At a WSG meeting in Wellington, earlier in the year (see http://www.gooduse.co.nz/thegoodnessarchives/000113.html), Jonathon Mosen did a live demo of JAWS to an audience of web developers. Watching the light bulbs go on as it read out an interminable database URL from an Amazon.com link was almost funny - you could see the ones who were thinking but *we* produce databases like that! We are hoping to have this available online as a Quicktime file soon. When it is, it's definitely worth showing to people. Jonathan is a wonderful speaker and funny speaker, and I guarantee that no one will see his presentation and go away feeling the same about accessibility! Mike for Web Standards New Zealand / Wellington WSG ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] standards, accessability and validation?
Leslie Riggs wrote: We are hoping to have this available online as a Quicktime file soon. When it is, it's definitely worth showing to people. Jonathan is a wonderful speaker and funny speaker, and I guarantee that no one will see his presentation and go away feeling the same about accessibility! Um, I'm kind of afraid to ask, but would there be any captioning on that for us poor deaf folk who won't hear this but do work for hearing clients? There's not at the moment. It would be great to have some, but I haven't any experience in captioning and not sure what's involved or how long it might take. Any volunteers? :) Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Text choices on our own sites
Samuel Richardson wrote: When I explain to clients why standards are important I bring up the following list: http://www.geminidevelopment.com.au/html/article_whycomplient.php And explain it to them point by point. Of course if I was a client, I'd immediately question the compliance of the spelling :) whycomplient Mike - unable to resist, even though I do live in a glass house ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch
John Lewis wrote: Hi Mike, I was interested to see that you are using the back-slash hack when importing your stylesheets, commented as: Excluding old versions of IE etc. I guess what I'm most interested in is how that decision was made? Is it part of your company's approach/philosophy or was it a choice the client made/business rule to not show styled pages for these browsers - thus lowering or containing the cost of the project? The obvious casualties being IE 5 for Mac and IE5.0. Hi John no, that was an informed client choice! We had orginally done the templates to look pretty much the same in IE5 (Win and Mac), but during the integration phase they decided to not send styles to those browsers. I think their statistics showed very few visits from those browsers. I guess this may be one of the first examples of a major (for NZ) public site making the choice not to send styles to those browsers. Yah for clients prepared to make that decision :) Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch
Andy Kirkwood|Motive wrote: My interest in Mike's post is in the client-developer relationship. What swayed the client toward excluding Mac IE from stylesheet support could be beneficial when considering the merits of such an approach with other standards-aware clients. Perhaps the RNZ decision means that Mac IE is now 'browser non grata'. Hi Andy it was a while ago I did the templates, so was going from memory! I've asked RNZ about the decision, but haven't heard back yet. Will let you know. It may have been the templates were half, or mostly, done when the decision was made. But from memory it was more of a philosophical decision - ie, time to move on, as we did with Netscape 4 a while ago. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Radio New Zealand site relaunch
http://www.radionz.co.nz As a disclaimer, I had some involvement with the HTML/CSS templates, but even so, I think it's a good example of a site that's nice visually and reasonably standards-compliant. Mike SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind ph: +64 4 803-3211 | fax: +64 4 803-3241 mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington Level 1, 250a Wakefield St, Wellington ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Styling legends and fieldsets
This really is a rhetorical question born of frustration, but why is the styling of legends and fieldsets so bad across browsers? Why can't you, visually, place the legend wherever you want? Even just being able to place it above the fieldset without overlaps and having the legend sit halfway on and halfway off the fieldset background would be nice! Is there any technical reason why this can't be implemented by browsers? It would certainly help in producing accessible forms if we didn't have to say, we can use legend and be properly accessible, or we can use heading and be able to place it where we want, but we can't use legend and place/style how we want. Choose one. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Avoiding the evil br
Richard Czeiger wrote: I think the bigger question is can someone proivde an example of when best to use the br / tag in general? What type of content semantically requires a line break. - Original Message - From: Hope Stewart I'm unsure whether I should in fact avoid using br: pstrongAll correspondence should be addressed to:/strongbr / The Secretarybr / Your Clubbr / PO Box 999br / Anytown VIC 3000/p Ok, I'll bite and ask why would you not use br / in the address example above? Aren't the semantics of an address that the different elements are (usually) on separate lines? Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Zoom Layouts
Hey I don't think there is, but is there any sort of consensus of the use of zoom layouts? http://www.alistapart.com/articles/lowvision/ http://www.joeclark.org/atmedia/atmedia-NOTES-2.html http://www.stopdesign.com/log/2005/06/24/zoom-layout.html In particular: 1) How do you signal that one is available? I'd like to use text (as opposed to an icon) but who is going to know what zoom layout means? Perhaps low-vision layout or low-vision version work better? 2) How it looks. Do you have light type on dark background or dark type on light background? I suspect that these just haven't been used enough for any good practice to have developed, but any thoughts would be of interest. Thanks! Mike SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind === ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Zoom Layouts
Patrick H. Lauke said: I actually had a bit of a discussion with Joe Clark on this issue during his London workshop last month. I'd argue that users of things like screen magnifiers, who are the target audience for zoom layouts, don't need excessively larger fonts and that the reversing of colours should also be taken care of by their AT. Meaning that the value of zoom layouts is what? Just that it's putting content is a single column to prevent overlap etc? And that the larger text and colour changes aren't actually needed? Again, I guess these are all the discussions we should be having now as the idea of doing this is new. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] avoid Verdana - I cant get the whole point.
Julián Landerreche said: I have been reading few articles (like http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/verdana.html) about avoiding Verdana font. But I cant get the whole point in this issue. So, please, can someone point me what am I missing about avoiding Verdana? Honestly, I pretty much refuse to take heed of such advice when the guy's website is so very, well, ugly! He's saying - don't use Verdana because: It's slighly larger in size to others fonts at the same size - eg Arial. Thus a user without Verdana installed (not extremely likely currently) may be viewing the text in another font, and that font may look too small on the screen. H. This would be why we use ems or percentages. So the user can resize. The article reads like a beat-up on Verdana for fairly obscure reasons. I'd ignore it, for what that's worth. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Content that jumps
Taco Fleur - Pacific Fox wrote: The content has stopped jumping, haven't changed anything in the structure. Has anyone seen anything like this before? Yup. I've found that the content gets really tired from jumping after a while and stops. Usually it takes a few hours solid jumping for it to get that tired. It may start again after a good night's sleep though :) Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Browser tolerance - was Barclays standards redesign
Kenny Graham wrote: Exactly. I was actually thinking the other day, browsers should be more like compilers... they should refuse to parse incorrect code. Then the enforcement would be on the output end, too. It would be nice, but would only work if -every- browser did it. Otherwise the general opinion would be This new 'Standards Compliant' browser is broken! Luckilly IE still works. Would it be so nice? Suddenly virtually all legacy web content wouldn't be parsed. The web would have disappeared :) I really believe one of the key factors in the growth of the web, and the unparrelled transformation it's had on the world in the past decade, has been the fact that browsers are incredibily tolerant of HTML. That and HTML being a markup language, not a programming language. It's easy to learn! Albeit harder to learn to do well. These two things have allowed millions of people to create websites. Without this uptake we would not have the web we do now - for good or bad. I'm not defending sloppy markup, but browser tolerance of such has allowed us to get to where we are now. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Screen Resolution for Fluid Layouts
Lea de Groot said: Honestly, it doesn't seem to matter how big the screen is. Jo(e) Public surfs at 100%. I don't like it, but its true. For the number of years I've been building sites (over 6 years full time) I'm struggling to remember ever seeing a client or user (as opposed to a designer or developer) on Windows with anything *other* than their screen maximised at 100%. Maybe I just don't get out enough? :) Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Form markup question
Hi what's the correct markup for when you want to provide help, or an example, of what should be filled in for a particular form field? For example: Visually I want something like this Known as[ input text field ] Name you prefer to be know as ... I've thought to markup as follows: label for=knownKnown as/label span class=helpName you prefer to be known as: e.g. Bill instead of William/span input name=known id=known type=text value= and to float the span right. Does that seem a good option? any other suggestions? Thanks! Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] What not to do for colour blind users
David Pietersen wrote: Mordechai is totally right in that it is hue that makes it difficult, but it is only within the specific context of combining the two (either Red/Green or Blue/Green). I had a series of progressively more advanced CB tests when I went to join the Army, and ended up with a rating of 19, with 20 being the worst (on their scale anyway). I can totally see the difference between Red and Green, and in 99.9 percent of the time it makes no difference to anything. The only time I notice it is when someone wants me to look at the pretty red bird sitting in the green tree (unless it moves, I will NEVER find it), or once when I was driving past a field everyone wanted me to stop and take photos and it took me 10 mins to work out it was an apple orchid in full bloom- all I could see was a bunch of boring trees. The reason you can't be an electrician is that if there is a red wire in a bundle containing a lot of green ones, there is little chance you would see it. I can't ever recall a website that caused me grief. If I have come across one, it would have still been usable for me, I just would not see it that same way as the author. dp. This is a site I always show people to illustrate red/green colour blindness: http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/ I find it extremely difficult to tell the red cells from the green cells. I think it's a good example of how not to use red and green - ie together and in small areas. The site's still usable (although less usable for me than normal sighted people), but if it relied *only* on red and green to signal differences, it would be just able unsuable. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Wellington WSG meeting Thusday 16 June
Hi everyone just a reminder about the Wellington WSG meeting to be held tomorrow. Details of the meeting are here: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event41.cfm It's looking to be a good meeting - good speakers, food and drink provided and over 70 people attending. And should be a good feeling in the air after the Wellington rugby side beat the visiting Lions tonight :) Hope you can make it if you're in Wellington! Regards Mike Brown on behalf of the Wellington WSG ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish IE woes
Jason sorry about that. I managed to get it working and took it down. The problem was I hadn't added a background colour for the ul and that was affecting the dropdown in IE. Imagine! :) Mike Jason Foss said: Can you repost that link for me Mike? It's not working atm... On 6/7/05, Mike Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://mlol.signify.co.nz/templates/searchtest.html In IE6 I can't fully fully mouseover the dropdown menu items before they disappear. It works in IE5 and Mozilla. The HTML and CSS validate. And the problem isn't consistent - sometimes I can mouseover most of the dropdown menu, other times none of it. Any ideas, before I lose the rest of my hair and look like Russ :) I'm hoping it's just something simple I've missed. Thanks Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Suckerfish IE woes
http://mlol.signify.co.nz/templates/searchtest.html In IE6 I can't fully fully mouseover the dropdown menu items before they disappear. It works in IE5 and Mozilla. The HTML and CSS validate. And the problem isn't consistent - sometimes I can mouseover most of the dropdown menu, other times none of it. Any ideas, before I lose the rest of my hair and look like Russ :) I'm hoping it's just something simple I've missed. Thanks Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Web standards presentation
if anyone is interested, I did a presentation on web standards last week and have put it online: http://govis.signify.co.nz I hate to do the best viewed in thing :), but it's best viewed in Mozilla/Firefox in fullscreen mode. It uses Eric Meyer's S5 presentation thingie. If you print out, or look in print preview, there's speaking notes for each slide. It takes a slightly different tack to other arguments I've seen for web standards and even has a Pulp Fiction theme :) Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards presentation
Jan Brasna wrote: Mike, this is awesome, I love the notes! ;) Who was the target audience, please? Thanks! The audience was managers of websites, people who commission websites. Especially in the government sector. It wasn't designed as a hands-on presentation, but more as an introduction to web standards, why they are important, and what I think they encompass. And yes, feel free to link to it. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Strange horizontal spacing in nav list
jackie reid wrote: Hello everyone... I am in a quandry... ie displays my navigation with whopping great big spaces in between the list items. Why is this so... and how can i make them go away? Been trying to get it sorted for a couple of hours now and am getting frustrated to the max. Please go here to see the offending page http://www.mackayports.com/airport/index2.asp Ya mean you don't assiduiously read Russ' Links for light reading each time? :) It looks like the IE whitespace bug, and solution from Russ' last lot of links: http://www.csscreator.com/css-forum/ftopic9016.html Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE three pixel bug has beaten me
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote:
This is the second time I am coming across the IE three pixel bug, but this
time it really got me:
http://www.addictivemedia.com.au/clients/gta/home.html
Andreas
not sure if this will fix it, but try ending the hack with a comment
eg
style
/* Getting rid of the IE/PC Three Pixel Gap Bug \*/
* html #home_right {height: 1%;}
/* end IE hack */
/style
Mike
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Re: [WSG] Valid Code, but Poor Accessibility
Matthew Cruickshank wrote: David Nicol wrote: I would be very grateful if someone could direct me to an existing resource or article addressing the subject of how a validly-coded web site can fail to be truly accessible. i.e. why valid code is not, in itself, enough to guarantee accessibility. A slightly different take on it: I don't care about accessibility http://www.veen.com/jeff/archives/000503.html and a reply: I care about accessibility. http://www.bestkungfu.com/?p=453 I don't think either would disagree with each other, or what's been said here of course! I'm starting to think that standards compliance is as much a mind-set as anything else. It's about using a range of tools, knowledge, best practice to craft (and I think that's a wonderfully appropriate word!) good websites. And that's relevant here because a validly-coded site is likely to have been built by someone who knows and cares about accessibility - ie someone who gets standards-compliance. So, no guarantee that a validly-coded site will be accessible, but a very good pointer to its likelihood. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Rounded corner and IE Win help needed
Ok, so this is driving me crazy! http://cpanz.signify.co.nz/test/national-pod-template.html I have an unordered list being used for navigation. The bottom item on the list needs to have a rounded corner. I figure: - make the last li position: relative - add a span inside the last li the exact size of the corner image - position it absolute to bottom and right of the last li - have the corner image set as a background for the span - give the last li height: 1%; as if I don't IE Win positions the span further down the page cf: http://www.positioniseverything.net/abs_relbugs.html It all looks fine in Mozilla, Safari and Opera, but the span is being positioned wrongly in IE Win - ie, not at right and bottom of the last li. Any ideas? I've spent way too long trying to figure this out, so no doubt have missed something basic! Thanks. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Rounded corner and IE Win help needed
Sigurd Magnusson wrote:
Well if you put a border on the span you see that the image is in the
wrong place within the span;
Doing background-position: bottom right; within the ul#subnav li.last
span { certainly gets you most the way there; had you done that?
No! I hadn't thought it necessay because the span was given a width and
height the same size as the background image. Your suggestion does help.
It's still not quite right, but getting closer :)
Thanks!
Bert Doorn wrote:
http://cpanz.signify.co.nz/test/national-pod-template.html
I have an unordered list being used for navigation. The bottom item on
the list needs to have a rounded corner. I figure:
Any ideas? I've spent way too long trying to figure this out, so no
doubt have missed something basic!
Why not just make a background image for the last li instead of fiddling
with spans, absolute and relative positioning etc?
ul#subnav li.last {
background: #url(subnav-corner.gif) no-repeat right bottom;
}
If that (as I suspect) interferes with the links (corner disappears,
particularly on hover), put a background image on
li.last a
...and...
li.last a:hover
I had thought of that, but the li.last a:hover does interfere with the
corner:
http://cpanz.signify.co.nz/test/national-pod-template2.html
I can't put the corner as a background image on the a as you suggest
as it already has the little box with the arrow as a background image.
And I can't combime that with the bottom right corner as I don't know
how high the link will be - eg whether it's 1 or 2 lines.
Incidentally, you might ass more contrast - there's not enough of it,
especially on hover, making the (tiny) link text very hard to read.
Agreed, but I didn't design it, am just building it!
Thanks.
Mike
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Re: [WSG] Standards compliant site, clients wants to make updates themselves
Bert Doorn wrote: However, I get many prospects who want to update sites themselves. In many cases, these are very small businesses with just one or two people, none of which have any idea about (x)HTML. Most of them have very small budgets, so they can't afford a complete CMS type setup (and it's not the kind of thing I can supply) and they tend to only want a small site (a few pages) for next to nothing. Is it just me, or is this a common dilemma? Apart from abandoning standards compliance (not an option as far as I'm concerned), setting the site up in HTML4.01 Transitional and letting amateurs wreak havoc with Micro$oft FONTPlague, what options are there to design standards compliant sites, letting clients maintain them and still stay within web standards? What is the issue with HTML 4.01 Transitional? A site that validates to that is standards-compliant. Regarding updating, from what I've heard Macromedia Contribute is good for these sorts of jobs. It allows clients access to specified content areas of the site and produces pretty good markup. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Standards?
Kay Smoljak wrote: On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:57:46 -, designer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can appreciate that I am getting a 'quality' product, but from a practical point of view, what am I getting that improves my business? As far as visitors to my site are concerned there seems to be no advantage - after all, my competitor's sites may well be outdated, but they do actually WORK, so my customers don't see any benefit. The advantages are geared towards both the business-owner and the user: - lower bandwidth intensive/cheaper to host (probably not an issue for your particular client) and also faster-loading for the end user - easier to update/redesign in the future - more accessible (presumably, depending on what was replaced) - *perhaps* more search engine friendly (again, depends what was replaced) - forwards-compatible, browser-wise - available to a wider audience of browser-users Jacobus van Niekerk wrote: Here is some comments she might like ;) http://www.adaptivepath.com/publications/essays/archives/000266.php http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/benefits/ Ok - playing devil's advocate a bit :) I think it's pretty much a waste of time explaining standards and arguing standards to someone like your client. And that's not meant as a put-down of them. Try it - watch their eyes glaze as you show how the competitors' sites don't validate. They shouldn't have to care about standards. They shouldn't have to know about standards. Their time is too short, they're too busy running their business. Just build a standards-compliant site as something you do as a matter of course. I don't see any reason not to do that. We have no more need to explain this to a client than an electrican needs to explain to me the standards they work to. I assume they are there somewhere, and I expect they will work to them. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE 5 Mac choking on CSS?
Tom Livingston wrote: Hello all, Here's my page: http://66.155.251.20/picotte.com/property/ Can anyone see what might be causing IE 5.2.3 Mac (OS X 10.3.x) to choke? 2 separate installs here will not load this page, but other pages are fine... Tom haven't got time to test the page, but I've had the same problem before and it was caused by not giving a floated element a width. It seemed that IE5 Mac froze on that. If you have any floated elements, check to see they have widths. HTH Regards Mike Brown SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Wellington WSG - update
Hi just an update, I guess mainly for those in Wellington and possibly wider NZ, but I think also good to let others know what we're planning! I'm pleased to announce that on Thrusday 24th February 2005, we'll be holding a WSG presentation in Wellington. Venue and cost are to be determined, but it's likely to run from around 5pm - 8pm. I'll be sending out more details in January, including venue, cost, how to book and details about the presentations themselves. But I can confirm our speakers for the presentation. I'm really excited about who they are, and think it's not something to be missed! We will be having: -- Russ Weakley Russ Weakley has worked in the design field for over 18 years, the last 8 as a web designer. Russ is currently the web designer for Australian Museum Online and specializes in front-end development, user interface, navigation, site structure and graphics. Russ co-chairs the Web Standards Group, whose role is to assist in the education of web developers in new technologies and accessibility issues as well as doing presentations to various industry groups. Russ has also produced a series of widely acclaimed CSS-based tutorials including Listamatic, Listamatic2, Listutorial, Floatutorial and Selectutorial. -- Jonathan Mosen Blind since birth, Jonathan Mosen has taken an interest in the civil rights of the blind from his teenage years. He's an accomplished broadcaster and has worked at the Royal New Zealand Foundation for the Blind, and twice been President of the Association of Blind Citizens of New Zealand. Jonathan established the PC-Audio e-mail list in August 1998. This list now has over 600 contributors from around the globe. The list provides assistance with listening to and recording audio on the PC, with emphasis on techniques that assist the screen reader user, and information on products that work particularly well with screen readers. Jonathan also established a general blindness technology discussion list called blindtech, where blind computer users can come for expert assistance and to share knowledge. He also tests pre-release versions of many popular access products on behalf of their developers, assisting in the design of new features and the detection of bugs. -- John Allsopp John Allsopp is a founder of Westciv, an Australian web software development and training company, which provides some of the best CSS resources and tutorials on the web. Westciv's software and training are used in dozens of countries around the World. The head developer of the leading cross platform CSS editor, Style Master, John has written on web development issues for numerous web and print publications and was one of the earliest members of the Web Standards Project. He is a tireless Web Standards activist. All three are accomplished speakers and presenters. The presentations will have value both to a specialist web standards audience and a more general audience - eg managers, business analysts, visual designers etc. In particular, I think the chance to observe Jonathan using assistive technology to access the web will be eye-opening for those of us who take vision for granted. Have a great Christmas/holidays everyone! Regards Mike Brown ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] e-Government Implementation Guidelines
Andy Kirkwood | MOTIVE wrote: E-GOVERNMENT IMPLEMENTATION GUIDELINES We're attempting to compile a list of international e-government web guidelines. (In NZ these standards have had a significant impact upon the acceptance and perceived legitimacy of web standards.) Andy something along the same lines has already been compiled here: http://www.webaim.org/coordination/law/ Might be a good starting point in and of itself, and also to avoid duplication. Regards Mike Brown SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic markup for publication titles
SEMANTIC MARKUP FOR PUBLICATION TITLES In print the name of a publication is typically type-set in an oblique or italic font. A similar *visual* effect can be achieved either through the use of: - an italic font-tag iPublication/i (probably deprecated) - an emphasis tag emPublication/em - styling a span span class=pubPublication/span (with companion CSS) As far as I'm aware, none of these methods have anything to recommend them from a semantic perspective. Is there an alternative convention or standards-endorsed markup to communicate that the enclosed text refers to a publication? Elegance preferred (i.e. rather than adding title tags to any of the above options). use cite eg citePublication/cite By default it's rendered in italics usually, but you can of course style further. Mike SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind === ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic markup for publication titles
Natalie Buxton said: Cite isn't really appropriate is it? CITE: Contains a citation or a reference to other sources So you are not referencing a source, just mentioning a publication. well, I think it *is* a reference to [an]other source. Although I think the specs could be clearer! Examples certainly seem to use cite for this purpose. Some comment on this:http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/HTML3.2/5.15.html Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] First Wellington WSG meeting
ok, so I'm so not a blogger! But my first attempt - a very brief rundown of the Wellington meeting - is here: http://discuss.webstandardsgroup.org/archives/18.htm It was a great meeting. We had close to 40 show up and there's a lot of interest in the group and getting it working well next year. Thanks to everyone who showed up, and to Terry Wood for his help and presentation! I'm looking forward to a lot of good things coming from this. Oh, and of course thanks to Russ and Peter and others here for the help and impetus to set things up in Wellington. Regards Mike Brown SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Standard for text email newsletters
Hi has anyone come across, or used, the following text email newsletter standard: http://www.headstar.com/ten/ If so, or even if you haven't but are able to look through, how useful do you think it is? And do you think it has potential in terms of encouraging organisations to adopt it as a standard for text emails? Regards Mike Brown SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind ph: +64 4 803-3211 | fax: +64 4 803-3241 mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington Level 1, 250a Wakefield St, Wellington This communication, including any attachment, is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete/destroy this communication; you may not read and must not copy, send on or retain any part of this communication. Please do not disclose to any third party anything about this communication. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Defining A Definition List
Bert Doorn wrote: Just to clarify my point. I did not mean to ask whether it is possible to call a list of one item a list. More a question of why would you call it a list and in HTML terms, why use the extra element. If we take this further, we might as well make every section in a html document (heading and paragraphs below it) a definition list and forget about headings and paragraphs. In fact, why not just make everything a div, span or object, so it all becomes very generic. (No, I'm not advocating that approach) sometimes a list is just a list! You would call a list of one item a list if you would call the same group and structure of words a list if it contained more than one item. See, even the act of assuming it's an item gives credence to it being a list. So many ways of grouping related items are correct, and without further information on the differences we're just guessing. By all means though if one looks better or suits a personal preference then just use it, but it's not like we can draw any best practices from this. Sure, it's personal preference, just like using tables nested n levels deep, often replacing a single paragraph with a complex table (no, I don't advocate that either). I'm sure we've all seen examples of this (ab)use of tables. Are definition lists in danger of replacing tables for layout? well, possibly they are - see Terry's earlier post. But even if they are, it in no way means that *in every situation* it's personal preference as to what is semantically best. That's what's called a slippery slope argument - just because you can find some examples where things aren't clear-cut, doesn't mean every case isn't clear cut. Again, sometimes a list is a list and a list is the right thing. Regards Mike Brown SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Safari form problem
Hi Safari (1.2.4) has a problem with the layout of this form: http://dev5.signify.co.nz/templates/form.html All other tested browsers render it fine. Safari seemingly isn't clearing the textarea in the first fieldset, and is adding a huge amount of whitespace at the top of the second fieldset. Any ideas why? The css used is here: http://dev5.signify.co.nz/templates/css/appform.css Thanks. Mike Brown SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] select as form label
Nick Lo wrote: Thanks for your response, unfortunately that wasn't my question though I realise at a glance it's how my question read. It was specifically referring to this type of instance... p label class=blank for=input_phone_1 select name=input_phone_1_type id=input_phone_1_type option value=Please Select/option option value=work selected=selectedwork/option option value=homehome/option option value=faxfax/option option value=mobilemobile/option option value=otherother/option /select /label br / input type=text name=input_phone_1 id=input_phone_1 value= /p Nick shouldn't your label be: label class=blank for=input_phone_1_type Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE5 Mac hanging on loading a page
Mike This page: Mike http://morst.signify.co.nz/templates/ig3-template.asp Mike which validates as HTML 4.01 Strict, causes a consistent problem with Mike IE5 Mac, whereby the page won't load or display. I end up having to Mike Force Quit the browser. To anyone still worrying about this :) A floated element on the page, a span, didn't have a width declared, and needed one for IE5 Mac. That was causing the hanging. It is a known problem, but one I'd forgotten about. Thanks to Philippe Wittenbergh for the solution! Mike Brown SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] IE5 Mac hanging on loading a page
Help! This page: http://morst.signify.co.nz/templates/ig3-template.asp which validates as HTML 4.01 Strict, causes a consistent problem with IE5 Mac, whereby the page won't load or display. I end up having to Force Quit the browser. It's been replicated on another IE Mac outside of our offices. I'm stuck, and also only use Macs for browser testing so don't have a lot of experience with them. Any ideas? Regards Mike Brown SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re[2]: [WSG] IE5 Mac hanging on loading a page
Andrew In Safari on the Mac it looks pretty much the same as
Andrew it does in IE on the PC. If you're interested, you can see it
Andrew at http://www.imagine-hosting.com/images/IG-3-template.gif
Andrew My IE 5.2 on the Mac behaved as you report and I had to force quit.
Andrew Thge only suspect I could see in your code was this:
Andrew @media tty {
Andrew i{content:\;/* */}} @import '/bioie5.css'; /*;}
Andrew }/* */
Andrew /*\*//*/
Andrew @import /bioie5mac.css;
Andrew /**/
Andrew What's with this?
Andrew
The top hack is the mid-pass filter
http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/midpass.html
sending styles to IE5* Win only
The bottom one is the IE5/Mac Band Pass Filter
http://tantek.com/log/2004/07.html#ie5macbandpass
sending styles to IE5 Mac only
I should have said in earlier post, that there are other pages with
the same CSS and meta stuff which display fine in IE5 Mac:
http://morst.signify.co.nz/templates/ig4-template.asp
http://morst.signify.co.nz/templates/ig2-template.asp
It's just this one page for some reason!
thanks though
Mike Brown
SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/
Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge
To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] best way to format Skip Nav link
Brian What's the best way to fomat a skip navigation link at the top of a Brian page so it doesn't appear in modern/styled browsers, but is still Brian accessible to small-screen / mobile platforms and reduced-ability Brian environments (screen readers and the like)? Hi Brian Another way of thinking about it is that it *should* be visible to everyone, including those with modern browsers. For eaxmple, someone might be: - perfectly sighted - using ther latest version of IE/Mozilla - mobility impaired and unable to use a mouse They would use the keyboard to navigate around a site. I'm sure they would appreciate a visible skip to content link to save them tabbing through the navigation on each page. My take is that the visible skip link really isn't incorporated much into designs. I imagine mainly due to ignorance and/or a belief that such things look ugly. I'm hopeful that soon they will be incorporated into designs in, of course, the most tasteful way :) Bottom line, if you can add it to the design, it's a good thing to do. Regards Mike Brown SIGNIFY LTD :: the logic behind ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] [OT] NZ vs Aust
Natalie Yeah, but the Kiwis are not Australians, they are New Zealanders, so Natalie we have an excuse ;p ok, I know this is waaay off-topic, and I *do* promise no more posts on it, but trash talking is trash talking :) So, to use a couple of pertinent title tags from Natalie's site http://www.pixelkitty.net/ ... No, Kiwis are not Australians - Love it or Shove it and as for Australians .. hmmm ... - all talk, no walk springs to mind :) Mike Brown (ducking and running in NZ) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ Proud presenters of Web Essentials 04 http://we04.com/ Web standards, accessibility, inspiration, knowledge To be held in Sydney, September 30 and October 1, 2004 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] divs and copying their content
Barry this might actually be something simple that I've Barry forgotten but I'm noticing more div layed out sites are harder Barry to accuratly select the text content. Select a word or two and Barry next thing you know you've highlighted (and copied/pasted) half Barry the page inc images. Barry to see what I mean, see if you can cleanly select a Barry couple of words from http://webstandards.org/. you'll probably Barry end up with more than you selected Barry can anyone explain why? I had the same (probably) problem recently. It doesn't happen in IE 5x Win, only IE6. It seems it's a problem caused by the combination of absolute positioning) and IE6 working in standards-compatible mode. This looks like a possible soultion: http://lists.evolt.org/archive/Week-of-Mon-20020902/121759.html another page about it here: http://blog.tom.me.uk/2003/07/23/boie6selecta.php HTH Regards Mike Brown SIGNIFY :: the logic behind ph: +64 4 803-3211 | fax: +64 4 803-3241 mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington Level 8, CMC Building, 89 Courtenay Pl, Wellington * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re[2]: [WSG] Budget Design
At this present time, for our team a small budget website consists of a 5 to 10 page (for want of a better word) XHTML/CSS site with CMS and can cost the client anywhere from AU$3.5K to AU$5.5K depending on customisation. Justin I'm also in AU, and this appears to be a fair *market* price for such Justin work, although in my case it's more like 10-15 pages. Of course, I Justin can't tell you whether this is a fair price for the work you perform, Justin or if you're covering your costs and making a profit, but $3-5k seems Justin to be what the market will handle here right now for something with Justin basic CMS and a general quality (XHTML, CSS, WAG, etc). and this is why discussions about prices are usually taboo. Not so much the giving away of trade secrets, but that they're of *very* limited value to most everyone on a mailing list such as this. I don't live in Australia. We don't charge in Australian dollars. The prices you give above are meaningless to me, as would the prices I might give you. And even to those living in the same country/region/city - who can say what's a fair price? What are your expenses? How desparate are you for work? Is there likely to be ongoing work from the client? All sorts of factors come into play when pricing a job. I know what you're asking, and it would be nice to have some figures to work with, but really, pricing is part of running a business, and beyond general principles, no one can help you in your particular situation. I can't even say something like, don't undercharge you work - value it and charge appropriately, because there will be times where you undercharge because you desparately need the work. :) Regards Mike Brown SIGNIFY :: the logic behind ph: +64 4 803-3211 | fax: +64 4 803-3241 mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington Level 8, CMC Building, 89 Courtenay Pl, Wellington * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
Re: [WSG] css from photoshop file?
Neerav I have always written standards compliant css for a site around a Neerav clients recommendations as to colours and position of logos etc. Now Neerav I've been asked: Neerav You'd be fine doing the templates from supplied photoshop files? Neerav I guess this would mean replicating the look of a PSD file with css Neerav code? Would this kind of client expect standards compliant css or rigid Neerav WYSIWYG works in IE code, any tips to ensure that the result will be Neerav decent css are appreciated. Ask them and see! :) Seriously. Actually, it can be an issue with deeper pitfalls. Who's your client? A designer/design company, or the actual end client? There's a difference. What might be ok to an end client might not be acceptable to a designer, and vice-versa. You may need to make decisions about what to do depending on the (small p) politics of the job. Who's paying you in other words! We routinely write standards compliant CSS sites based on photoshop/fireworks layouts supplied by design companies. Off the top of my head, some things you may need to sort out with the designer: :: is it a fluid or fixed-width layout? :: do you use fonts or images for navigation? :: do elements on the page have to be exactly the pixels apart shown in the design, or do you have some flexibility there? :: is it clear from the design what elements are heading elements - h1, h2, etc? HTH Regards Mike Brown SIGNIFY :: the logic behind ph: +64 4 803-3211 | fax: +64 4 803-3241 mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington Level 8, CMC Building, 89 Courtenay Pl, Wellington This communication, including any attachment, is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete/destroy this communication; you may not read and must not copy, send on or retain any part of this communication. Please do not disclose to any third party anything about this communication. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
[WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
ok, so at the risk of getting flamed :) I'm writing about what the purpose of this list is. I've found it to be a very good resource and fully support the idea of promoting the understanding and use of web standards. What I've been struggling with over the past 2/3 months though is the increasing volume of posts concerned with what I'd call how-to matters. Questions about getting something to work with CSS, or about needing help with a web-related problem. These, and answers to them, have far and away made up the bulk of posts to the list. If the purpose of this list is to answer these questions, then that's fine. But personally I'd probably unsubscribe as the volume is just too much. There are excellent lists already out there: css-discuss http://www.css-discuss.org/ webdesign-L http://webdesign-L.com/ that are set up for this type of help. I don't think we should try and duplicate what they do. Rather, I think this list is much more valuable discussing web standards, promoting them, commenting on them, sharing resources, educating each other etc etc What do others think about this? I have emailed Russ about this, and he was of the view that the list members of the list community should set the rules for posting, topics of discussion etc, and also that he was happy for me to post to the list about this and get feedback etc. I guess that my main concern is drowning under weight of emails! I'm on the two lists mentioned above and really don't want to be on another duplicating what they do. But I do want to be on a list discussing web standards. Regards Mike Brown SIGNIFY :: the logic behind ph: +64 4 803-3211 | fax: +64 4 803-3241 mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington Level 8, CMC Building, 89 Courtenay Pl, Wellington * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re[2]: [WSG] Purpose of this mailing list
Mark I realise that there are other CSS QA lists out there, but this list is Mark different in the sense that it is really the extension of a group and the Mark group's meetings. I would say that at the moment the membership of the list Mark these days far exceeds the attendance of our meetings, but the list has Mark evolved out of the group group meetings. That's probably what I didn't realise - that the list is an extension of the group. Although I knew it orginated in Australia, I thought it was more of a stand-alone list. Mark What would you think about a blog RSS feed for news stuff (or would this Mark just be another CSS blog)? Or two lists, one for news and one for Mark implementation issues? Personally I like lists in that I like the push of lists (things come to me) rather than the pull of blogs/forums etc (I need to go to them). = Just as a general comment about learning all the hands-on stuff, please don't anyone get the impression that I'm against that. We all need to learn and be shown, and I'm continually impressed by the willingness of people on mailing lists to give their time and expertise up for this. It's just that personally, I've learnt most from the other two lists I've mentioned and don't, for me, see the point of belonging to another list that replicates that. And please, don't anyone be put off by Paul's comment on webdesign-L: the list-mom and most of the members seem to be arrogant elitist techno-fascists who sneer and chide those of us further down the learning curve It ain't so :) Finally, if the concensus is that mostly people are happy with posting about these sorts of issues (the how-to questions), then that's all cool and how a list should develop. But it's good to ask questions like mine from time to time! Mike * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re[2]: [WSG] classguide
David I'm currently writing the styleguide for BHP Billiton's site David templates, and I am including in it a section on div id's and David classes, and what they represent. David Information in this section includes how the different divs work in David the context of the page, and in context with other divs, basic David outlining of how the the divs structure and inheritance works and David I've made sure our naming conventions for id's and classes can be David read and understood by people who weren't involved in the project. David If you were interested, and able to share, I'd certainly love to see what you come up with. What to provide as documentation to clients, and how to structure it, is something we're about to start looking at in more detail. Ideally, I'd like to have some sort of template that would lay out the sort of detail you're talking about above, that we could provide as a matter of course to all clients. If it's commercially sensitive, that's cool and no problem! On another note related to names for div id's and classes, I'm realising the value of having a core stylesheet and then separating out styles for individual pages/templates and having these in seperate stylesheets which can be downloaded only by the pages they are needed on. I realised this once my stylesheet got to over 600 lines and I was taking ages to find the items in it I was working on, and strange things were happening with the cascade as things were being overwritten! Is this approach (multiple stylesheets) something others use on larger sites with a lot of styling? Regards Mike Brown SIGNIFY :: the logic behind ph: +64 4 803-3211 | fax: +64 4 803-3241 mob: +64 0274 885-992 | http://www.signify.co.nz P.O. Box 24-068, Manners St, Wellington Level 8, CMC Building, 89 Courtenay Pl, Wellington This communication, including any attachment, is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you should delete/destroy this communication; you may not read and must not copy, send on or retain any part of this communication. Please do not disclose to any third party anything about this communication. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
