[WSG] Content div sticking out the side of container div
Somehow I do not seem to have come across this problem before. I have two
divs, one contained within the other. If the viewport of the browser is
resized to be smaller than the contents of the inner div, the inner div
sticks out the side of the outer container div, which continues to resize
with the browser.
Surely the outer div should stop shrinking when it reaches the width of its
inner div, even if the viewport continues to be shrunk?
How can I fix this so that the outer div will not become any smaller than
the width of its inner div, when the width of the inner div will be unknown?
Here is example code that illustrates this. In my example, the inner div is
set to a fixed width, but for the web site I am developing, I will not know
the width of the inner div.
!DOCTYPE html
htmlheadtitleTest/title
style type=text/css
#wrap {
background:#CCC;
border:2px solid blue;
}
#contents {
width: 800px;
background:#99F;
border:2px solid yellow;
}
/style
/head
body
div id=wrap
Test
div id=contentstest/div
Test
/div
/body
/html
Thanks,
Stephen
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[WSG] Wrapping text before float drop
If I have two floats side by side, both are floated left as follow:
.myfloat{
float:left;
}
and both contain text as follows:
div class=myfloatLonger amount of text. Longer amount of text. Longer
amount of text. Longer amount of text./div
div class=myfloatSmall amount of text./div
Is there any way to prevent the second div from dropping below the first div
when the viewport is narrowed, without specifying widths for either of the
floats?
What I would like is for the text in the first div to wrap before the second
float drops below the first. Is this possible without using widths?
Thanks.
Stephen
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Re: [WSG] Wrapping text before float drop
I'm trying to avoid using widths, if possible, so the divs can adjust to the size of the content, but wrap text before float drop occurs. Think of how two columns work in a table, when they have no specified width. They adjust to the size of the content and the available width, and wrap their content if the available width is reduced. This should be easy in CSS, no? - Original Message - From: Patrick H. Lauke re...@splintered.co.uk Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 6:08 PM Not tested, but I'd start with a min-width:50% (with caveat that if I remember right, IE6 and below doesn't support min/max widths) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Wrapping text before float drop
From: Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 7:32 PM Think of how two columns work in a table, when they have no specified width. They adjust to the size of the content and the available width, and wrap their content if the available width is reduced. Do you *need* the floats? If not, look at CSS3 flex-box. It's not supported yet though is it by Internet Explorer? Interestingly, setting maximum-width to a % value for the floats gives me what I am looking for to a certain degree. Thanks, Stephen *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Wrapping text before float drop
Thanks Russ. Box-flex / flexible box does not yet appear to have much browser support, so that rules that out for now. Support for CSS3 columns will arrive in IE10 according to http://www.findmebyip.com/litmus, but Windows XP users are stuck with IE8 and can't even get IE9. Your solution using CSS tables works well, I may consider that. It just shows though that despite all the good reasons for using CSS, it has until now had limitations in its ability to provide the flexibility that we require, and even to replace some of the things that we could do with the all-powerful table. There's also a part of me that thinks using floats for column layout is not really the correct use of floats, just as tables was not correct, but we can only work with what we've got. Thanks, Stephen - Original Message - From: Russ Weakley r...@maxdesign.com.au To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 8:21 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Wrapping text before float drop Think of how two columns work in a table, when they have no specified width. They adjust to the size of the content and the available width, and wrap their content if the available width is reduced. This should be easy in CSS, no? The simple answer is that floats are not ideal in this situation. There are three ways you could solve this problem - but as Hassan mentions, they are best done without using float. All three solutions may present issues in older versions of IE. Without knowing exactly what you are trying to achieve, it is hard to recommend one of these solutions. - Option 1 - display: table, display: table-row, display: table-cell - http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visuren.html#display-prop For example, you could make the two containers operate like table cells. I am not really a fan of this approach, but it would give you the behaviour you are looking for. http://maxdesign.com.au/jobs/example-stevio/table.htm - Option 2 - columns - http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-multicol/ - Option 3 - Flexible Box - As Hassan mentioned, you could use the flexible box module as a solution http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-flexbox/ Not sure if any of these help... Russ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Correct behaviour of fieldset?
Thanks Russ for the detailed reply and examples. One thing that I did not make clear in my original email is that the reason why the width of the select list within the form may have a width greater than 30em, is because of the content of the select list (the text). The values listed in the select list will be drawn from a database and therefore the width of the select field is determined by the text within that field. The behaviour I want is that the form will have a set width that would expand if the width of the select fields is wider than the default width of the form. However, I tried applying a width to the select fields using CSS (I had not thought of that) and discovered another browser inconsistency:- - If the width of the text within the select list is greater than the specified width of the select list, then when you click on the list to make it appear, the width of the drop down list will expand to fit the width of the items within the list. - The exception to this is IE (I'm using IE8) which displays the dropdown list at the specified width. - Chrome, Opera and Firefox all expand the width of a select list when it is displayed. This would be a great solution except that IE8 acts differently! Regarding my original question about the expanding fieldset width, basically you are saying IE and Opera have it right? Regarding my bigger issue of having a form that expands as necessary, I have found that using the following styles for the form seems to work: min-width: 35em; display:inline-block; Is this the best solution? Thanks, Stephen - Original Message - From: Russ Weakley r...@maxdesign.com.au To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Correct behaviour of fieldset? Hey Stevio, There could be a range of reasons for the select element issue, so the only answer would be it depends. In your case, the issue MAY be related to font-size. Browsers may render the font-size of the select element slightly differently. This could mean that the em unit applied to the select element may be smaller in some browsers, and therefore the select element will not poke out the side of the form. Here is a quick online example: http://maxdesign.com.au/jobs/example-stevio/ There are three form examples on the page. All three of these forms have been set to 30em wide. The first form example has a select element with no width applied. The second form example has a select element set to 32em. Depending on the font-size of the select element, this may mean it pokes out the side of the form element. The third form example has a select element set to 32em AND set to 100% font-size. So, in all browsers EXCEPT IE6, the select element SHOULD stick out the side of the form in all cases. In other words, this is a consistent and correct behaviour. (Child elements that are wider than the parent element should stick outside the parent and be fully visible, unless some form of overflow has been applied). The only exception is IE6, which will operate differently. IE6 will force the parent to wrap around the child element. In this case, the form element will them become 32em wide in order to accommodate the select element. This is not the correct behaviour, but it is a well known IE6 behaviour :) HTH Russ On 01/11/2011, at 7:11 AM, Stevio wrote: I have noticed that the behaviour of fieldset is inconsistent across browsers. I am working on a form where I have a fieldset with a 1px border. If the form has a fixed width of 30em, but there is a select list within that form with a width greater than 30em, then the form width will not expand but the fieldset width *may* expand depending on which browser is being used. The fieldset width expands in Firefox and Chrome, but not in IE and Opera. What is the correct behaviour? Thanks, Stephen *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Correct behaviour of fieldset?
Thanks Todd, what I'm really looking for is a minimum width on the form, that expands as need be. However, just setting a minimum-width on a form does not set the form to that width. The width of a form as a block level element defaults to 100%. The solution that seems to work for the form is the following: min-width: 35em; display:inline-block; I want a default width of 35em just for consistency and just how I want it to look. I do not want it getting smaller than that. Stephen - Original Message - From: Tedd Sperling tedd.sperl...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 3:23 PM Why have a hard-coded width? If you are pulling the select-field text from a database, then you are probably using php to do it. As such, it is a simple matter to find the maximum length of the all the strings pulled and then set a width of the select fields to work. I suggest setting this value in a variable from within css -- I know css doesn't have variables, but that doesn't stop PHP from declaring one. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Correct behaviour of fieldset?
I have noticed that the behaviour of fieldset is inconsistent across browsers. I am working on a form where I have a fieldset with a 1px border. If the form has a fixed width of 30em, but there is a select list within that form with a width greater than 30em, then the form width will not expand but the fieldset width *may* expand depending on which browser is being used. The fieldset width expands in Firefox and Chrome, but not in IE and Opera. What is the correct behaviour? Thanks, Stephen *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Modal forms - what to call them?
- Original Message - From: Patrick Horgan phorg...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 9:05 AM On 07/20/2011 09:43 AM, Stevio wrote: Take Facebook's current implementation of photos for example. A while back they introduced a modal viewing box for images. However, if you click F5 to refresh Firefox, you go back to the old style viewing of the image in it's own page. Often I do this because I prefer it, other times I persist with their viewing box. That's a really bad example, since that feature is user hostile, the F5 doesn't work in all browsers, and the same capabilities aren't available in both modes, for example with the popup much of the page is blocked and you can't click on links like home, and sometimes after browsing with the popup you get back where you were, and sometimes you don't. Please don't use it as an example. It makes you really wonder what problem they were trying to solve, and you should ask yourself the same. (Really page designers should always ask themselves that. It avoids doing something because it's a cool feature you learned about, but that makes things worse for users.) To the contrary, I think you strengthen my argument by highlighting the differences. There are advantages to both the modal and non-modal facebook implementation of images, and different users may prefer one over the other, which is the point I was trying to make. It is not a perfect illustration of what I am looking to do and I did not claim it was, so please do not over examine the comparison. If a user choice is clear and makes sense, and is not confusing, then why not give them that choice? My original intention was not to offer both choices but I have come to realise as I have developed the system, that if both options are implemented, then why not allow users to choose. They may prefer to be working on a page that is non-modal and they can click on links like home and have more workspace, or they may prefer to use a modal form to quickly add a record. Let's not write off an idea just because it isn't the way it's normally done. Thank you for your thoughts. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Modal forms - what to call them?
I am working on a CMS and within it, when a user wishes to add a record, I give them two options: 1) Add record - this goes to a new web page with a form. 2) Add record modally - this brings up a modal dialog box containing the form which allows them to add the record without leaving the page they were on (this page lists the current records). This uses jQuery. Once they add the record, the list of records is updated using AJAX. However, what user-friendly descriptive name should I use for the modal forms? I doubt many people know the word modal. Any suggestions? It would be laid out as follows: Add record (pop-up dialog box)? Clicking on 'Add record' takes the user to a new page, while clicking on 'pop-up dialog box' opens the modal form. However, I would like something shorter and simpler than 'pop-up dialog box'. Any thoughts? Thanks, Stephen *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Modal forms - what to call them?
User choice basically. They may prefer to see more of a form in its own page, or they may prefer to use a modal form to add the record. If JavaScript is disabled, the system still works fine with the non-modal form option. Take Facebook's current implementation of photos for example. A while back they introduced a modal viewing box for images. However, if you click F5 to refresh Firefox, you go back to the old style viewing of the image in it's own page. Often I do this because I prefer it, other times I persist with their viewing box. As for a user-friendly name for the modal link, so far I've come up with coolbox, float, or using an icon with an arrow. Any better suggestions? Thanks, Stephen - Original Message - From: Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Modal forms - what to call them? On 7/20/11 8:45 AM, Stevio wrote: I am working on a CMS and within it, when a user wishes to add a record, I give them two options: 1) Add record - this goes to a new web page with a form. 2) Add record modally - this brings up a modal dialog box containing the form which allows them to add the record without leaving the page they were on (this page lists the current records). This uses jQuery. Once they add the record, the list of records is updated using AJAX. However, I would like something shorter and simpler than 'pop-up dialog box'. Any thoughts? Just curious -- why offer a choice? Why not just offer the modal version if JS is enabled and the other if not? What is the user benefit of the non-modal option? And is it enough to justify introducing an extraneous decision into the workflow? Will the target user understand the implications of the choices and pick one unhesitatingly? Or think eh? what? :-) Just askin' ... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Modal forms - what to call them?
Hi Jason, I was just using that as an example, that users may prefer one way over the other, and so I wish to offer them a choice. It would be nice if Facebook offered the choice! See my original email - it needs a name because the word modal is not one that I think users would be familiar with. I need something to differentiate between opening the form in a separate page and in a modal form, preferably something short and to the point. Thanks, Stephen - Original Message - From: Jason Grant To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Modal forms - what to call them? Stephen, I think we are talking about different context with regards to Facebook example. You don't really get side by side options on Facebook to open in separate page or open in modal window. Why does this thing need to have a 'name' anyway? Cheers, Jason On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Stevio redea...@freeuk.com wrote: User choice basically. They may prefer to see more of a form in its own page, or they may prefer to use a modal form to add the record. If JavaScript is disabled, the system still works fine with the non-modal form option. Take Facebook's current implementation of photos for example. A while back they introduced a modal viewing box for images. However, if you click F5 to refresh Firefox, you go back to the old style viewing of the image in it's own page. Often I do this because I prefer it, other times I persist with their viewing box. As for a user-friendly name for the modal link, so far I've come up with coolbox, float, or using an icon with an arrow. Any better suggestions? Thanks, Stephen - Original Message - From: Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Modal forms - what to call them? On 7/20/11 8:45 AM, Stevio wrote: I am working on a CMS and within it, when a user wishes to add a record, I give them two options: 1) Add record - this goes to a new web page with a form. 2) Add record modally - this brings up a modal dialog box containing the form which allows them to add the record without leaving the page they were on (this page lists the current records). This uses jQuery. Once they add the record, the list of records is updated using AJAX. However, I would like something shorter and simpler than 'pop-up dialog box'. Any thoughts? Just curious -- why offer a choice? Why not just offer the modal version if JS is enabled and the other if not? What is the user benefit of the non-modal option? And is it enough to justify introducing an extraneous decision into the workflow? Will the target user understand the implications of the choices and pick one unhesitatingly? Or think eh? what? :-) Just askin' ... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc [Hons], MSc [Hons] Customer Experience Architect Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Shadow web sites (was Title tags - site name then keywords?)
Thanks for all the good advice, I appreciate that. Hopefully it is not going too far off topic if I ask one more SEO related question. What do you think of shadow web sites? This is something that has been offered to this customer by a major company. These shadow sites use a generic domain name, containing the customer's key words, and when someone clicks on it, it brings up the shadow web site which contains details of all the services the company offers. If they go to the bottom of the page, there is a link to the company's main web site. To quote from what they say now as you can see we just mirror your main site so they look the same and people know it's the same company, this gives you more exposure, more shop windows and helps with the SEO. I have already recommended against this as this is a practice specifically mentioned in the Google Webmaster Guidelines as something that should be avoided, and which could therefore harm your chances of being found in Google searches. Other search engines have also in the past specified that this practice is not recommended. You can see this in the following page from Google - http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=35769 It says near the bottom under Quality guidelines - specific guidelines: Don't create multiple pages, subdomains, or domains with substantially duplicate content. I'd still be interested in your thoughts on this practice. Regards, Stephen - Original Message - From: Stuart Foulstone stu...@bigeasyweb.co.uk To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 1:37 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Title tags - site name then keywords? Hi, Search engines are blind readers - design for accessibility. Each page on the Website should be on a specific topic (except, perhaps,for the Homepage). Put the topic first in the title tag, so that it is easily identifiable from the other pages. The top header in the page content should also relate to the topic. The keywords you wish to obtain search engine results for, for any particular page, are presumably the page topic. Stuart On Tue, April 19, 2011 8:30 pm, Stevio wrote: When it comes to search engine optimisation, are you better to list the site name/business name first in the title tag, and then keywords, or the other way round? e.g. ABC Engineering Ltd - Steel Fabrication, Pipework, Welding or Steel Fabrication, Pipework, Welding - ABC Engineering Ltd Are you likely to do better in search engines with the keywords first in the title tag? Thanks, Stephen *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Shadow web sites
Thanks Josh, that all sounds good. Just one question though - why do you say to avoid reciprocal links? - Original Message - From: Josh j...@viteb.com Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:06 PM I am josh and working as an online marketing manager having 5+ years of experience in this industry. Based on my experience what I recommend is; create shadow (we called supporting or satellite websites) if and only if you are having time and budget to work on those websites too. Let me explain in details... Those support website with duplicate or mirror content same as main website will never work. Previously this practice was popular because Google was giving some weight to domain name and people were building different website for different keywords with unique content to improve the rankings for specific domain specific keywords. But Google have stopped Giving weight to domain name !! see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAWFv43qubI Here are few important suggestion for optimizing your website: - Buy domain having business related or short name that is easy to remember - target most relevant keywords (1-3 phrase) having least competition initially and once you achieve those rankings move to highly competitive keywords. - never hide content or use any black hat methods (create website for users not for search engines) - Write fresh and unique content and use keyword density upto 5-6 % - Generate backlinks (only quality links and relevant theme). - avoid buying links from link farm or directories - Avoid submitting your website in thousands of directories (they are useless as search engine knows and devalued those links) - Avoid reciprocal links Apart from this, there are hundreds of factors that really affect the search engine rankings. I am sure this will help, Josh *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Title tags - site name then keywords?
When it comes to search engine optimisation, are you better to list the site name/business name first in the title tag, and then keywords, or the other way round? e.g. ABC Engineering Ltd - Steel Fabrication, Pipework, Welding or Steel Fabrication, Pipework, Welding - ABC Engineering Ltd Are you likely to do better in search engines with the keywords first in the title tag? Thanks, Stephen *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Overflow hidden and floated divs
I have a row of floated list items inside a container with height 1.2em,
which is inside a parent div with a background colour.
e.g. something like this (not the actual HTML of course ;) -
div with background colour
ul with height 1.2em
li floated/li
li floated/li
li floated/li
/ul
/div
If the floated list items were too wide, the rightmost list item jumped down
beneath, but the container did not expand so it looked bad.
However, if I add overflow:hidden; to the parent div, then the rightmost
list item still jumps down, but now the box expands down the way, so it
looks a lot better.
My question is why does it do this? I have looked up what overflow hidden is
meant to do and from what I read it sounds like the content should just get
clipped at the right hand side and not be shown. Why is it causing the box
to expand down the way?
Thanks.
Here is the CSS:
#navigationbar {
background-color:#DEDEDE;
overflow:hidden;
}
#navigationbar ul {
padding: 0.2em 0 0.2em 0;
margin: 0px;
list-style: none;
height:1.2em;
}
#navigationbar ul li {
padding: 0;
margin: 0;
display: block;
float: left;
}
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[WSG] Re: More than one H1?
Hey all, Am I the only one who is getting these messages directly sent to their deleted items? Please can you take the out of office bit out of the subject lines? I am sure there are others like me who have filters set up to automatically delete out of office messages. It's also a bit ironic that a subject about headings was started with the subject line Re: [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest lol! My own view is that a logo should not be wrapped in an H1 tag under normal circumstances. A logo is an image not a descriptive heading. If you want to have more than H1 tag then as others have said, there is nothing in the spec against it so go for it. If you are sure that Google will penalise you for it however, then just avoid it. Use an H2 tag for the second heading, even if you style it the same. Stephen - Original Message - From: Yuval Ararat To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 1:10 PM Subject: Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest) I am not sure that a page with multiple important subject does not exist. so IA wise and semantic wise this is not a must. google wise it is. On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:55 PM, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com wrote: Tim, Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must. However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices as well as general semantics and IA best practices. So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not the be all and end all of guidelines. Thanks, Jason On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White tjameswh...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld m...@langfeldesigns.com wrote: ... H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings. ... So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page. Let's look at what the specification says; A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically. There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1 as the most important and H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger fonts than less important ones. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5 Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be only 1 per page. In fact, the example shows two being used. ~ Tim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Right div dropping below left floated div when browser resized
I have two divs as follows (no link sorry, web page is protected) - a left
div for navigation, a right div containing a header and table (with tabular
data).
The problem is that when the browser window is reduced in size, to the point
that the table can no longer shrink to fit inside the available space, the
table (but not the whole right div) drops down so that the top of the table
is in line with the bottom of the left navigation div. This problem occurs
in IE6 but not IE7 or Firefox.
Any ideas how I can fix this so the table just stays in place like it should
when the horizontal scrollbar appears?
Code is below. Thanks.
div id=navigation
--content--
/div
div id=mainbody
h2My List/h2
div
table class=TableList
--table content--
/table
/div
CSS is:
#navigation {
float: left;
width: 180px;
margin-top: 20px;
margin-bottom: 10px;
margin-left: 9px;
margin-right: 9px;
padding-left: 1px;
padding-right: 1px;
background: #FF;
border-top: 2px solid #336699;
border-bottom: 2px solid #336699;
}
#mainbody {
margin-left: 210px;
margin-top: 20px;
margin-bottom: 20px;
margin-right: 20px;
border: 0px solid black;
}
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Re: [WSG] Right div dropping below left floated div when browser resized
Thanks Joseph, but I don't know the width however. The right width column
varies according to the width of the browser and it's content.
Stephen
- Original Message -
From: Joseph Taylor
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 10:00 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Right div dropping below left floated div when browser
resized
IE6 will drop your content down to a place where it'll fit.
You need to do something like this:
my_container {
min-width: XXpx;
_width: XXpx; /* just for IE6 */
}
IE6 needs specified width and then it'll behave like it was given a min-width.
Joseph R. B. Taylor
Designer / Developer
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com
On 6/30/09 4:42 PM, Stevio wrote:
I have two divs as follows (no link sorry, web page is protected) - a left
div for navigation, a right div containing a header and table (with tabular
data).
The problem is that when the browser window is reduced in size, to the
point that the table can no longer shrink to fit inside the available space,
the table (but not the whole right div) drops down so that the top of the table
is in line with the bottom of the left navigation div. This problem occurs in
IE6 but not IE7 or Firefox.
Any ideas how I can fix this so the table just stays in place like it
should when the horizontal scrollbar appears?
Code is below. Thanks.
div id=navigation
--content--
/div
div id=mainbody
h2My List/h2
div
table class=TableList
--table content--
/table
/div
CSS is:
#navigation {
float: left;
width: 180px;
margin-top: 20px;
margin-bottom: 10px;
margin-left: 9px;
margin-right: 9px;
padding-left: 1px;
padding-right: 1px;
background: #FF;
border-top: 2px solid #336699;
border-bottom: 2px solid #336699;
}
#mainbody {
margin-left: 210px;
margin-top: 20px;
margin-bottom: 20px;
margin-right: 20px;
border: 0px solid black;
}
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[WSG] Expand width of container to fit content's width?
Is it possible to expand a container's width to fit its content? For example, if I have a page where the content is wider than the width available at the browser's current size, which means the horizontal scrollbar appear, I want the container to expand to fit the width of the content instead of having the content sticking out the side (because that makes the design of the page look poor when the user scrolls horizontally). Thanks, Stephen *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Box model in IE7
I am using the following doctype: !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd; Correct me if I'm wrong but this switches on standards-compliant mode doesn't it? I'll maybe need to strip down my web page to try and work out what's going on. To be honest though it doesn't affect the web site, I am just curious as to the slightly different gaps in IE7 from Firefox. Stephen - Original Message - From: Rimantas Liubertas riman...@gmail.com To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Box model in IE7 Getting back on subject, I do not think the box model has been fixed in IE7, but I do not know for sure. You might try adding margin for separation with containing div tags in browsers. Once again: box model was fixed in IE6, given your page has proper doctype (and nothing above it). http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb250395.aspx#cssenhancements_topic3 Regards, Rimantas *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Box model in IE7
Is there a problem with the DocType I'm using? Thanks, Stephen - Original Message - From: Stevio To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:30 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Box model in IE7 !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd; - Original Message - From: Luke Hoggett Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:45 AM HI, What doctype are you using? cheers Luke Stevio wrote: Is the box model in IE7 still messed up? I thought they sorted it? I am floating a div to the right with a width of 50%. The div to the left has a right margin of 50%. I've put a 1px solid border on both of them. In IE7 there is a gap between them but in Firefox they are right against each other. Go figure? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Box model in IE7
Is the box model in IE7 still messed up? I thought they sorted it? I am floating a div to the right with a width of 50%. The div to the left has a right margin of 50%. I've put a 1px solid border on both of them. In IE7 there is a gap between them but in Firefox they are right against each other. Go figure? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Box model in IE7
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd; - Original Message - From: Luke Hoggett Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:45 AM HI, What doctype are you using? cheers Luke Stevio wrote: Is the box model in IE7 still messed up? I thought they sorted it? I am floating a div to the right with a width of 50%. The div to the left has a right margin of 50%. I've put a 1px solid border on both of them. In IE7 there is a gap between them but in Firefox they are right against each other. Go figure? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Borders in liquid layouts
I have created a web site design, with a graphical border down the sides of the design (15px wide on each side). To implement this using CSS would be quite simple if the design had a fixed width, but I am looking to implement a liquid layout. Essentially I reckon it comes down to equal height columns in liquid layouts. Any suggestions on how to best accomplish this? Thanks. Stephen *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] web developer toolbar for IE!!!!
Any good? Is the better version reliable enough? - Original Message - From: sam sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 4:00 AM I have just installed the web developer tool bar for internet explorer http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=e59c3964-672d-4511-bb3e-2d5e1db91038displaylang=en ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Variable background image size
I am trying to have a left column with a different colour that resizes when the font size is resized. I saw this technique a while ago but I can't remember exactly how it works - where basically you have a background image that is larger than what your window will ever be usually, and you use background-position and ems (and/or percentages) to position the background column. When the font size is resized, the column will resize accordingly because of the background positioning setting. Is anyone familiar with this technique and can they remind me how it works? Thanks, Stephen ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Default display property of a TR
What is the default 'display' property of a TR element? Is there somewhere you can look this sort of thing up? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.5/110 - Release Date: 22/09/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] OT: Good Flash development mailing lists/forums
Does anyone know of any good, active and busy, Macromedia Flash development mailing lists or forums? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.0/103 - Release Date: 15/09/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Linearization
I am interesting in your thoughts on linearization. What it means and how you apply it? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/92 - Release Date: 07/09/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
- Original Message - From: Bert Doorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 9:09 AM Keep reading... http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050630/#layouttables-avoid It is *recommended* that authors not use the |table| element for layout purposes *unless the desired effect absolutely cannot be achieved using CSS*. Perhaps this is the crux of the matter. Most things can be achieved with CSS, especially if you use various hacks and scripts etc. However, at what point do we say, we are better doing this layout in tables rather than using complex CSS with various hacks? In terms of future maintenance, the CSS solution will be more difficult due to the complexity of the hacks and scripts. I like this list in that people are so willing to debate the issues, as that is how we learn and understand what is best, but I think we should not blindly use CSS. We must use it wisely and examine how we are using it so we don't make new mistakes. Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/92 - Release Date: 07/09/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space
I like Bert :-) He talks sense. And before you say it the other people also made very good points which I appreciate. A lot of it does seem very conceptual however, if you know what I mean. Terence said, Using them for layout is a bit like making up everything in p tags. Does anyone agree that we are abusing the use of CSS (square pegs in round holes?) with the way we force it to do things that it perhaps was not really designed for? Are floats really meant to be used for column design? If they are then why are there oodles of pages on the net about getting them to work right. We never had this problem with tables ;-) I disagree with the point about revisiting the design just because CSS is not up to the job. The web is a visual medium and we should be able to design pages to look how we want, with the condition of making sure they are readable and suitable for those accessing them. For those of you who use a background image, how do you get round the problem of the columns changing size? I hope you are not using a fixed width layout (as many CSS column layouts do)! ;-) Regarding my point about CSS taking longer. As I say I have been using CSS for various sites for quite a while, but it's the time taken to find the right hack for the right problem, making sure you have the best hack possible, trying to make sure you have all angles covered etc. If anyone knows of an up to date article detailing the most common CSS design problems and the best solutions then I would love to know of it! The whole concept of using tables for layout is flawed for a number of reasons. It makes assumptions about the type of device being used to render the page, the abilities of the person viewing it, adds unneccessary weight to the design, is harder to update, and directly interferes with the content. Final point I want to know is, in what way does a table (a simple 1 row 2 column table) actually cause any of the above problems you mention? How does it hinder someone from viewing it on a different device for example? How is it harder to update? I am not talking about multiple nested tables. I remember when Java was the next great thing. How Java applets were just what we needed. Yet I remember thinking, well where are the real world examples of how these applets are useful on a web site? The main examples I knew of were games. Then there was Flash. Flash has done a bit better but again, people rush to it and we had to suffer the period of Flash intro pages! Nice to look at ... once... but ultimately pointless. When you go to a web site you want information usually, not entertainment. Flash has now found it's right place as an aid to the visual appeal of web pages, or other uses, but is not so abused now. CSS is very different from both Java and Flash, but we need to keep things real and not go overboard. Why is it we use floats for layout when you could argue relative positioning is how it should be done? Are we using floats for the wrong purpose? Thanks, Stephen - Original Message - From: Bert Doorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 5:56 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space G'day again Once upon a time it was NN4, now it's IE6, and tomorrow who knows? And that's the point of designing to web standards. As for what the client wants, I say it's two of: good, fast, cheap. Yep. And some of those have difficulty with non table based layouts :-) However, I doubt very much that the big driver is the visual design Bert, and I doubt most people visiting or commissioning a web site give two hoots as to how its built. The vast majority of my clients don't care whether I use a table or divs (and would not even know the difference). But they do often want a particular layout and all except a few do look at it with a graphical browser. For the record, the people paying my bills *do* want standards based design - I'm working in e-govt - and they want content that is usable by people, and *easily* manipulated by machines. Standards based (good) does not rule out using the occasional table for layout if it's the quickest way to get something out there (fast and cheap). (e-govt - is that the real world? LOL) If a 2 column CSS layout with a band of color down one side is difficult to implement with todays technology, shouldn't we instead look for designs that work with the technology we are using? If it's your own site and you are happy to have a different layout, sure. Or if you can convince the client that your way is better. But if the client wants a particular look, We should give them what they want. If that means using a *single* table to get two columns of equal length and with different background colors, I will use the table. setting a background on one or two div's *still* uses less code than the equivalent markup for tables. Show me an example?* *Take into
Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space
Dwain wrote: Stevio wrote: I disagree with the point about revisiting the design just because CSS is not up to the job. The web is a visual medium and we should be able to design pages to look how we want, with the condition of making sure they are readable and suitable for those accessing them. i found this to be an interesting article: http://www.westciv.com/style_master/house/good_oil/dao/index.html Interesting yes. But two points. One is that it assumes the user knows how to change their font size. I suspect many do not. The default layout has to be the best one, as over 90% of the time that is what will be viewed and it will not be changed by the user. Secondly, their web site uses a fixed width layout that does not fit when the browser window is 800px wide. Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/90 - Release Date: 05/09/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space
- Original Message - From: Kenny Graham To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space Does anyone agree that we are abusing the use of CSS (square pegs in round holes?) with the way we force it to do things that it perhaps was not really designed for? Maybe to an extent, but not nearly as much as using tables for layout is abusing tables. They were never meant to be used as layout, or even for presentation. They were created for tabular data. At least in CSS, we're abusing a presentational language for presentational purposes. The web is a visual medium and we should be able to design pages to look how we want, with the condition of making sure they are readable and suitable for those accessing them. I disagree. The web is an information medium. The most common way to access that information is through a graphical web browser. A visual medium used to browse the information made available on the web (information medium). I rarely use a traditional, graphical web browser anymore. I have my computer read my RSS feeds and email aloud to me while I work and play games. I test pages I make in graphical browsers, and post flamebait as anonymous coward on Slashdot. That's about it. For those of you who use a background image, how do you get round the problem of the columns changing size? I hope you are not using a fixed width layout (as many CSS column layouts do)! ;-) *clicks my heels together three times and says Column support in CSS3? Column support in CSS3?* Final point I want to know is, in what way does a table (a simple 1 row 2 column table) actually cause any of the above problems you mention? How does it hinder someone from viewing it on a different device for example? How is it harder to update? I am not talking about multiple nested tables. Accessibility isn't just for blind people. It's also for the most disabled users of all: computers. Ever try to teach an HTML parsing script how to tell the difference between a table of data and a layout table? If people would just use semantic markup, it'd be as simple as It's in a table element? Must be tabular data. It's in a p element? Must be a paragraph. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/90 - Release Date: 05/09/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space
- Original Message - From: Kenny Graham Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 12:36 PM The web is a visual medium and we should be able to design pages to look how we want, with the condition of making sure they are readable and suitable for those accessing them.I disagree. The web is an information medium. The most common way to access that information is through a graphical "web browser". A visual medium used to "browse" the information made available on the web (information medium). Good description, I concede the point. I rarely use a traditional, graphical web browser anymore. I have my computer read my RSS feeds and email aloud to me while I work and play games. I test pages I make in graphical browsers, and post flamebait as anonymous coward on Slashdot. That's about it. I suggest you are in the minority in your use of the web. Most people will use web browsers. For those of you who use a background image, how do you get round the problem of the columns changing size? I hope you are not using a fixed width layout (as many CSS column layouts do)! ;-)*clicks my heels together three times and says "Column support in CSS3? Column support in CSS3?"* Lol. In which case the use of tables is perhaps still justified? Final point I want to know is, in what way does a table (a simple 1 row 2 column table) actually cause any of the above problems you mention? How does it hinder someone from viewing it on a different device for example? How is it harder to update? I am not talking about multiple nested tables.Accessibility isn't just for blind people. It's also for the most disabled users of all: computers. Ever try to teach an HTML parsing script how to tell the difference between a table of data and a layout table? If people would just use semantic markup, it'd be as simple as "It's in a table element? Must be tabular data. It's in a p element? Must be a paragraph." The point is however, that when you create columns, with equal length, you are in essence creating a table grid type layout for your information. Therefore the use of tables with their columns makes sense, even appropriate? When you create columns using CSS, you are creating a table-like look, are you not? Is CSS3 going to reinvent the wheel? No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/90 - Release Date: 05/09/2005
[WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space
What is the best way to expand a left floated navigation column to fill up the height of the available space? This column has a different colour, but the right column will usually be bigger. Is the best way still to use background image, or does anyone have a better way of doing it? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/90 - Release Date: 05/09/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space
From: Vicki Berry [EMAIL PROTECTED] Stevio wrote: What is the best way to expand a left floated navigation column to fill up the height of the available space? I really like this script from Project Seven, which also keeps the footer at the bottom of the viewport: http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/pvii_columns/index.htm Like all PVII offerings, it works in all modern browsers. Sometimes I think that somewhere along the way, things have become back to front. Let me offer a few quotes from the article Vicki gave the link for: If you create a 2-column table, and color one column red, and the other blue, both columns will extend the full table height - regardless of the content in either column. - a common design requirement. To Hack or to Script, that is the question - in reference to using CSS for columns. If you want to lay out your page without tables and still have equal-height columns, then you can use CSS hacks or Javascript. The article gives some arguments against using tables (usual one of separating structure from presentation), when logic would suggest from the above quotes that using tables would make a lot of sense. Can someone give me a good real life example however, of when using a simple 2 column table with 1 row would actually cause anyone any problems? What is wrong with using a simple 1 row 2 column table to layout a web page when using DIVs and CSS requires hacks and JavaScript to work in the way required? Why is using CSS in this case the better of two evils? Surely we are abusing CSS in just the same way we are abusing tables? Please remind me as I find myself wasting so much time with CSS design hacks when table design is so much quicker. I have been doing CSS and XHTML for a while too before you ask! I'm sure other people constantly have to look about to find the right hack for the particular problem they are facing. Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/90 - Release Date: 05/09/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Submenus anyone?
Has anyone got any good examples of submenus that work good and are compliant with XHTML 1.0 strict? I've been using Project 7 menus but I'm finding they are just too difficult to sort out all the kinks, plus there has always been the problem that if you move the mouse fast enough they don't always close. I figure there must be better working menus than that. I usually have my links change background and foreground colour, so would like that, but would like the link to stay changed colours while the mouse is hovering over the submenu that has appeared, and then to go back to normal when I mouse off the submenu and it vanishes. Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/89 - Release Date: 02/09/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Two column left navigation
I have a web site with a left navigation system consisting of images and text in 2 columns. The image is displayed on the left, with the text link to the right of it. At the moment this is displayed using a table. What would be the best way to display this without using tables, i.e. with a couple of divs for each image and text pair? The width of the container is fixed (at 220px), and the size of the left images is 100px. Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/84 - Release Date: 29/08/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Designing for printing
How far do you go with designing for printing? I usually make sure my pages print ok on A4 (210mm by 297mm). For the web site I'm currently working on, I will make some adjustments using a print stylesheet to ensure this works ok. My web site is basically a two column design with the navigation column floated to the left. However, if the user decides to print onto A5, which is only 148 x 210mm, then the right side main content div will jump down below the left hand float because of the width (it includes images), and the print out will look really strange. Should I be trying to accommodate A5 printouts, or smaller printouts than the norm, and if so in what way? Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/84 - Release Date: 29/08/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Two column left navigation
Hi Kenny, That almost works, except the text of my links is more than one line long and wraps onto the next line. When it wraps, the 2nd line wraps underneath the image for some reason. Any suggestions? Stephen - Original Message - From: Kenny Graham To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Two column left navigation http://www.kennygraham.net/projects/wsg/stevio/index.htmlhttp://www.kennygraham.net/projects/wsg/stevio/style.css At the moment this is displayed using a table. What would be the best way todisplay this without using tables, i.e. with a couple of divs for each imageand text pair? No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/84 - Release Date: 29/08/2005
Re: [WSG] Does anyone still design for 640x480?
For newer sites I try to make them at least good at 800x600 but also like to make sure that things don't get messed up as they get smaller than that. However, if you are using CSS with a 3 col layout you have the problem of IE not having a correct implementation of min-width which means that columns can jump about below other things when you'd rather just have the vertical scrollbar appear. So that means messing about with finding solutions for that (and if you have a good simple one let me know). People argue your site should be able to handle any width, but since the web does include images, there will only be so far you can go as your image widths and text etc will create a minimum width of some value. Stephen - Original Message - From: Michael Kear To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:58 PM Subject: [WSG] Does anyone still design for 640x480? Yes, I know a good design will scale for any size screen (resolution if you prefer that term) but most designers I know pick a minimum size and work out their designs with this as a normal minimum. Any smaller sizes they just make the site work but not fret if things are not perfectly aligned. For example, I usually design pages that work well in screens 800x600 or larger but in smaller screens, everything will be there but if lines have wrapped horribly or tabs and boxes have dropped down to a new line, IÂ’m not going to worry. Is that what you are all doing nowdays? What sizes are you designing for? Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia Macromedia Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 02/08/2005
Re: [WSG] Does anyone still design for 640x480?
Don't forget however, just becausea user has their resolution at 800 by 600 it doesn't mean they view at that size. They might have the browser window smaller than the maximum screen size, or they could have any one of multiple sidebars that browsers allow you to display on the left hand size (search, history, favourites, etc). Stephen - Original Message - From: David Pietersen To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Does anyone still design for 640x480? Visitors to my State Government site are almost divided exactly in half between 800x600 and 1024x768, based on around 30,000 unique visits per day, and we actually provide 2 versions of our sitethrough testing the res before we render the HTML. There is a growing percentage of those with 1280x1024, but it is still tiny compared to the other two I mentioned. We get a VERY small hand full at 640x480, which I suspect is two or three regular visitors. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.9.9/62 - Release Date: 02/08/2005
[WSG] 3 col layout, preventing divs jumping down when page shrunk
When you have a 3 column layout, how do you prevent the middle column from jumping down in Internet Explorer as you shrink the width of the window? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.336 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/54 - Release Date: 21/07/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Keeping a floated item from overlapping when window resized
I'm sure I've done this before, but I have a div element floated to the right. When the window is resized to be smaller, how can I make sure that at some point the element on the right will not start to overlap the content in the middle, but instead the horizontal scroll bar appears? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.9/39 - Release Date: 04/07/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?
Does anyone have a link to an online article that shows you how to do this in Flash? Thanks, Stephen - Original Message - From: Mike Foskett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 5:14 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way? I completely agree, use Flash. I'd say the same for video too, for the same reasons. Why: One solution multiple platforms. Saturation on all computers is over 90%. That's more than any browser. No platform compatibility issues Mac / PC. No browser issues Firefox / IE / Netscape / Opera. With a single start / stop button in Flash, alongside a link to download the file. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.12 - Release Date: 17/05/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?
Here is the code I am using at the moment. Please let me know what browsers and platforms would have a problem accessing the mp3 file. object id=MPlayer6-4 height=69 classid=clsid:22D6F312-B0F6-11D0-94AB-0080C74C7E95 param name=AutoStart value=false param name=AutoSize value=true param name=AnimationAtStart value=true param name=EnableContextMenu value=true param name=filename value=media/file.mp3 param name=ShowStatusBar value=true param name=ShowControls value=true param name=ShowPositionControls value=true param name=EnableFullScreenControls value=false param name=volume value=-200 embed src=media/file.mp3 autostart=0 audiostream=1 showcontrols=1 width=280 height=69 volume=-200 type=application/x-mplayer2 showstatusbar=1 pluginspage=http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/MediaPlayer/;/embed diva href=media/file.mp3 class=bodylinkListen to advert/a/div /object Thanks, Stephen - Original Message - From: Stevio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way? Does anyone have a link to an online article that shows you how to do this in Flash? Thanks, Stephen - Original Message - From: Mike Foskett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 5:14 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way? I completely agree, use Flash. I'd say the same for video too, for the same reasons. Why: One solution multiple platforms. Saturation on all computers is over 90%. That's more than any browser. No platform compatibility issues Mac / PC. No browser issues Firefox / IE / Netscape / Opera. With a single start / stop button in Flash, alongside a link to download the file. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.12 - Release Date: 17/05/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 266.11.12 - Release Date: 17/05/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?
I have a sound file that my client wants me to put on his web site. It is a radio advert that they currently have running. The format of the file is m4a (mp4). I have used a program that converts it to mp3 or other formats if required. What is the best way to go about including it on a web page, and keeping it standards compliant (to at least HTML 4.01 Transitional)? Including sound files is not something I often do, you'll be glad to know. I will also NOT be setting it to start playing itself, it will be up to the user! Should I keep it in the m4a format or use mp3 or use something else? I got it working with the following code: object width=160 height=16 classid=clsid:02BF25D5-8C17-4B23-BC80-D3488ABDDC6B codebase=http://www.apple.com/qtactivex/qtplugin.cab; param name=src value=media/advert.mp4 param name=autoplay value=false param name=controller value=true embed src=media/advert.mp4 width=160 height=16 autoplay=false controller=false pluginspage=http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/; /object However, it doesn't work in Firefox. I need something that will work in different browsers and different platforms. Does anyone know the best way to do this? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.12 - Release Date: 17/05/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?
What is the benefit in using Flash to do something that you can quite easily do without flash? Stephen - Original Message - From: sam sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way? I would use Flash to play the audio and provide an alternative link to the sound file as alternative content thanks SS -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.12 - Release Date: 17/05/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way?
Is there no standard way then to play an audio file (say mp3 for arguments sake) using the object tag? Is the only standard way to just link to it using a href=file.mp3? Stephen - Original Message - From: Mike Foskett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2005 5:14 PM Subject: RE: [WSG] Playing a sound file - what is the best way? I completely agree, use Flash. I'd say the same for video too, for the same reasons. Why: One solution multiple platforms. Saturation on all computers is over 90%. That's more than any browser. No platform compatibility issues Mac / PC. No browser issues Firefox / IE / Netscape / Opera. With a single start / stop button in Flash, alongside a link to download the file. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.12 - Release Date: 17/05/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Reapplying your CSS when the page length changes
Any ideas? Thanks, Stephen - Original Message - From: Stevio [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:39 PM Subject: [WSG] Reapplying your CSS when the page length changes I have some JavaScript code that causes some content to be displayed when the user mouseover's an element. This extra content causes the page length to increase. However, I have some absolutely positioned footers. When the extra content appears, the footer overlaps with it. The positioning styles do not seem to be getting reapplied when the extra content is shown. Is there a way, perhaps just a simple JavaScript function I can use, to tell the page to reapply the CSS to make sure everything is positioned right when the extra content is shown? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 10/05/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 10/05/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Using valid JavaScript
I am doing some work which involves resizing objects using JavaScript. However, properties like offsetHeight, innerHeight and clientHeight are not listed in the references here: http://www.w3schools.com/ Does that mean the guide at W3Schools is not very good, or that these properties are not supported by all browsers? Is there such a thing as valid, standards compliant JavaScript? Where can I find a reference guide of JavaScript properties that are supported across all browsers? What I am specifically trying to do is find out things like the height of the body and the height of particular elements within the page. Any suggestions or ideas welcome. Sorry if this is a bit off topic. (Is it?) Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.9 - Release Date: 12/05/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Using Object to replace IFrame
I have a page that works ok using an IFrame to load some content from another web site into this frame. The page is XHTML 1.0 Transitional compatible using an IFrame. To make it XHTML 1.0 Strict compatible, I would need to remove the IFrame and replace it with an object, from what I understand. I read something about it on the web but can't find it now. Using Object (using data attribute) to replace IFrame (using src attribute) works ok except in Internet Explorer, where the frame has some sort of bevelled border effect and the html file from the other site doesn't load into the object. If I load an html file from the same site it works ok, but not from another site. How can I make it work? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.9 - Release Date: 12/05/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Displaying hidden content when JavaScript disabled
I have some content that is hidden and only displayed using JavaScript. However, when JavaScript is disabled, I want to display all of the content to start with. I can do this by redefining styles within a noscript tag within the head section. Display: none is changed to Display: block for the various elements. However, my page does not then validate as being valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional code when I do this. It doesn't like the style declaration within the noscript tags. In fact, am I right in saying that . What can I do to display hidden content which will be valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional other than my solution above? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.9 - Release Date: 12/05/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Re: Displaying hidden content when JavaScript disabled
I can do this by redefining styles within a noscript tag within the head section. Display: none is changed to Display: block for the various elements. However, my page does not then validate as being valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional code when I do this. It doesn't like the style declaration within the noscript tags. In fact, am I right in saying that . I never finished this question. Am I right in saying that you are only supposed to have simple text between the noscript tags? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.9 - Release Date: 12/05/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Reapplying your CSS when the page length changes
I found a solution for my problem from this page:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/alternate/
I use this function:
function setActiveStyleSheet(title) {
var i, a, main;
for(i=0; (a = document.getElementsByTagName(link)[i]); i++) {
if(a.getAttribute(rel).indexOf(style) != -1
a.getAttribute(title)) {
a.disabled = true;
if(a.getAttribute(title) == title) a.disabled = false;
}
}
}
When I display the hidden content, which causes the page length to change,
the stylesheet is reapplied/refreshed using a call to this function.
This ensures my footer, which is absolutely positioned at the bottom of the
page, is moved to the bottom of the page when the additional content
appears, instead of overlapping with it.
The ONLY problem I have with all this is that in Firefox, the whole page
flickers when I mouseover the text that causes the additional content to
appear (and which calls the function to reapply the stylesheet). Any
suggestions for stopping the Firefox flicker?
Stephen
- Original Message -
From: Stevio [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Web Standards Group wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:39 PM
Subject: [WSG] Reapplying your CSS when the page length changes
I have some JavaScript code that causes some content to be displayed when
the user mouseover's an element. This extra content causes the page length
to increase.
However, I have some absolutely positioned footers. When the extra content
appears, the footer overlaps with it.
The positioning styles do not seem to be getting reapplied when the extra
content is shown.
Is there a way, perhaps just a simple JavaScript function I can use, to
tell the page to reapply the CSS to make sure everything is positioned
right when the extra content is shown?
Thanks,
Stephen
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[WSG] Flash Satay method article
Is the Flash Satay method from this article in 2002 still the most up to date and proper way of inserting Flash objects in a valid XHTML way? http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ Even the Macromedia web site has a copy of the article: http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/mx/dreamweaver/articles/flash_satay.html Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 10/05/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Reapplying your CSS when the page length changes
I have some JavaScript code that causes some content to be displayed when the user mouseover's an element. This extra content causes the page length to increase. However, I have some absolutely positioned footers. When the extra content appears, the footer overlaps with it. The positioning styles do not seem to be getting reapplied when the extra content is shown. Is there a way, perhaps just a simple JavaScript function I can use, to tell the page to reapply the CSS to make sure everything is positioned right when the extra content is shown? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.8 - Release Date: 10/05/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Overlapping footer
I am working on a 2 column layout with a header and footer, with the footer always pushed against the bottom of the page (or at the bottom of the content, if the page content is longer than the available space). http://www.cssweb.co.uk/templatetest2.html I am getting quite close to a solution. I have one problematic issue just now I am looking at. The footer is always at the bottom as you can see. However, when you resize the browser window and make the height of the window smaller, the footer will push up and overlap the content above. How can I make sure the footer will stop exactly at the black 1px border of the #maincontent div which contains the sidebar and the main content? I want this to work without knowing the height of the footer (i.e. if the footer height varies depending on its content the solution still works). I used this article to help with this solution (but not the scripting part): http://www.alistapart.com/articles/footers Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.2 - Release Date: 02/05/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] The mother of all html references?
I use http://www.w3schools.com/a lot. It has a lot of stuff on it for HTML, CSS, even ASP etc. - Original Message - From: Cole Kuryakin - x7m Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:02 PM I've been using this online html reference (http://www.htmlreference.com/) for the past 6 months or so, and so far it's been fine. Can anyone recommend another on-line reference that they prefer so I can take a look? No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.2 - Release Date: 02/05/2005
Re: [WSG] Overlapping footer
Hi Jay,
Thanks for that, but floating the footer left
instead of setting position to absolute, means that the footer is not at the
browser window, which is one of the requirements.
Thanks,
Stephen
- Original Message -
From:
Jay Gilmore
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2005 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Overlapping
footer
Stevio wrote:
How can I make sure the footer will stop exactly at the
black 1px border of the #maincontent div which contains the sidebar and
the main content? Stevio, I looked at your CSS
and all you have to do to make this work is to change the
following:#footer { position:
absolute; bottom: 0; padding:
0; margin: 0; background-color:
#FF; width: 75%; clear:
both; border: 0px solid
green;}to#footer { float:
left; bottom: 0; padding:
0; margin: 0; background-color:
#FF; width: 75%; clear:
both; border: 0px solid green;}It seems to work
fine. This way, even if you make the #sidebar or #maincontent huge, the footer
stays put.Jay
--
Jay GilmoreDeveloper/ConsultantSmashingRed Web MarketingP)
902.529.0651E) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [WSG] Voice family box model hack
Yeah but what does each of the following lines actually do? height: 100%; voice-family: \}\; voice-family: inherit; height: auto; Also, I am not clear on which browsers will end up using 100% height and which will not break but not use 100%. That MSDN article is quite interesting. Basically you can use those Conditional Comments to add specific code anywhere in your page for IE5, IE6, IE7 when it comes, and other browsers such as Firefox, Opera etc will just ignore it all because the code appears commented out to them. This in turn makes it easier to develop code specifically to fix IE problems. Why has that been such a well kept secret? Thanks, Stephen - Original Message - From: Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Voice family box model hack Stevio wrote: Can someone explain how the following works? Hi Stephen, You may want to read this: http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html Then this: http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/overview/ccomment_ovw.asp Unless I'm missing something, the latter is a simpler and - IMHO - cleaner solution to fix MSIE. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 27/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Two separate CSS issues
I am working on a 2 column layout with a header and footer, with the footer
always pushed against the bottom of the page (or at the bottom of the
content, if the page content is longer than the available space).
Here is the page (ignore the colours - they are just for identifying divs!):
http://www.cssweb.co.uk/templatetest.html
I am coming across two problems:
1) When viewing in Firefox - there is whitespace at the top of the page
above the Document Heading, which is within an H1 tag. If I add:
#header h1 {
margin:0;
}
then this problem disappears.
Shouldn't the H1 be contained within the header div? Why is the above
required? This problem does not happen in IE6.
2) When viewing in IE6 - the floated sidebar div (yellow with red border)
does not appear on top of the pink space where it should be. Why is that?
Thanks,
Stephen
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Re: [WSG] Two separate CSS issues
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the suggestion but it didn't work! Stefan's suggestion did not
work either. Any other ideas anyone?
Anyone know why a floated div is hidden in IE6?
Stephen
- Original Message -
From: designer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Two separate CSS issues
These days I always use:
#{margin : 0; padding : 0} at the start of my CSS. This removes all the
'default' padding, margins etc from everything, and you set your own,
throughout.
Sometimes a pain if you're being lazy or in a rush, but it does allow for
excellent control of your layout.
Bob McClelland,
Cornwall (U.K.)
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
- Original Message -
From: Stefan Lemmen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Two separate CSS issues
For the first problem try this:
body, html {
margin:0;
padding:0;
}
Stefan Lemmen
Holland
On 4/28/05, Stevio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am working on a 2 column layout with a header and footer, with the
footer
always pushed against the bottom of the page (or at the bottom of the
content, if the page content is longer than the available space).
Here is the page (ignore the colours - they are just for identifying
divs!):
http://www.cssweb.co.uk/templatetest.html
I am coming across two problems:
1) When viewing in Firefox - there is whitespace at the top of the page
above the Document Heading, which is within an H1 tag. If I add:
#header h1 {
margin:0;
}
then this problem disappears.
Shouldn't the H1 be contained within the header div? Why is the above
required? This problem does not happen in IE6.
2) When viewing in IE6 - the floated sidebar div (yellow with red border)
does not appear on top of the pink space where it should be. Why is that?
Thanks,
Stephen
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[WSG] Voice family box model hack
Can someone explain how the following works?
#container {
position: relative;
min-height: 100%;
height: 100%;
voice-family: \}\;
voice-family: inherit;
height: auto;
}
htmlbody #container {
height: auto;
}
Which browsers do and do not use the height 100% and height auto values?
This is from:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/footers
Thanks,
Stephen
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[WSG] 100% height of viewport
Is there a way to stretch an element to be 100% height of the viewport? Also what is the best way to create a footer, which is at the foot at the page no matter the height of the viewport, but below and not overlapping any other elements? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 25/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
Tee, have a look at one more: http://vivabit.co.uk/articles/wsbp/ - I thinks it was not mendioned yet. One of the first points on that web site is: Sites built with web standards take less time to develop I have to disagree. Trying to lay a site out with CSS can be very complicated and time consuming, given all that hacks that you have to research and use in order to get things to look right and work right across multiple browsers. Table layout, on the other hand, is straightforward and simple. It might be more complicated to maintain when you come back to it a while later and have to work out the nested table colspan'ed layout and make an adjustment to it. However, would a CSS layout be any easier to come back and maintain? (I don't know, I'll find out in a while I suppose.) Here is something that annoys me too - people dismiss table layout because basically, using tables for layout is not what tables are intended for. Therefore using tables for layout is a 'hack'.However, whenever you try to use CSS for layout, you find out you have to use various 'hacks' to get it all to work right. Therefore, you negate on of the main reasons for using CSS layout in the first place. Not only that, newer CSS versions introduce tables into CSS! Reinventing the wheel anyone? Is it just a case of CSS layout (and browser's implementation of it) not being mature enough yet to really trust and use fully, or should we carry on regardless with it? An example of a hack is to use a background image behind the layers of your 3 column layout. Surely the proper thing to do should be to specify background colours in the stylesheet, which is a lot easier to maintain than changing an image's colours and widths. Plus it often means that you are building in fixed column widths, not recommended usually in an ideal world. Here's another thought - is using floats to design things like 3 column layouts a hack in itself? Shouldn't relative positioning be the proper way to do it? Maybe not I just ask :-) Please don't shoot me down in flames for these views! One of the things I like about this list as opposed to another list I am on is that you people discuss these issues in an open, reasonable way and acknowledge such problems. I look forward to your replies! :-) It helps me with my understanding of CSS, web design and the best way to carry on designing. Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.2 - Release Date: 21/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
- Original Message - From: Lea de Groot [EMAIL PROTECTED] ah, but (from what you say elsewhere in your post) you are just learning CSS layout - of course you are finding it more difficult. I wouldn't say I am just learning CSS, I've been using it for a while. I would say I am not an expert either however. I, on the other hand, haven't done full on table-layout in something like 5 years now. I assure you, I don't remember all the little tricks and hacks required for that and it would take me ages to make it look just so. Don't be confused between the effort of the learner and the effort of the master :) Lea de Groot Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet http://elysiansystems.com/ I had a look at your web site out of interest to see what it's like :-) I'm using IE6 on Windows XP, 1024 by 768 resolution (probably a very common configuration). There are some strange problems with your footer and copyright area. The copyright line is mostly hidden to the left of the green area. Only '005' shows. Also, when you mouseover your footer links, they jump to the left slightly. Sometimes your copyright line does show and then is hidden when you mouseover the links. A white gap also appears sometimes between the two green side columns and the footer as you scroll. These are the sort of things that drive me nuts when designing with CSS! And to be fair you must agree these problems do not occur with table layouts? If this was my site I would then have the choice - research why these problems are happening, find the hacks to make them work, and then implement and test. Or convert to tables. What often happens in these cases is that I do the research and the best option ends up being to use tables anyway, as it is the best and most reliable option. I realise as well that many problems with the use of CSS can be laid at the feet of IE6. However, IE6 is the dominant browser and is what most of your clients and their clients are using. As long as that is the case then first and foremost, your site has to work in this browser. Please don't mistake me for being anti-CSS. I am not. My designs at the moment tend to be a mix between CSS and table layouts. CSS is also great for text styling. I just feel it has some way to go before it is the definitive solution for layout, and that people are too quick to dismiss table layout. Thank you for your feedback. Here's a final thought for this email - one of the reasons that the internet became such a big thing is because it was so easy to create web sites, not necessarily good web sites, but easy nonetheless. The concept of sticking tags round things to affect how they behave is relatively simple. Using tables for layout is also a fairly intuitive thing, so using them was not a problem for people making web sites. However, I think you would agree that there is a steeper learning curve in learning to use CSS, which therefore means that less people are going to be able to create web sites. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.2 - Release Date: 21/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Web standards as a selling point?
From: Rimantas Liubertas [EMAIL PROTECTED] This topic is very flamable, so I won't go on it any more (at least in this thread ;), Don't worry about that. It's important to discuss these issues I think. Anyone who has been in this business for a while as I have, will have seen the latest and greatest development ideas come and go. Remember when Java applets were the future of the internet? Remember all those Flash intro pages with the skip buttons (lol)? Latest is not always greatest - if we're going to use something we need to be convinced it is the right and best thing to use. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.2 - Release Date: 21/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Mystical belief in the power of Web Standards, Usability, and tableless CSS
Interesting thoughts from Vincent Flanders: http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/biggest-web-design-mistakes-in-2004.html Go to number 3: Mystical belief in the power of Web Standards, Usability, and tableless CSS What do you think? Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.18 - Release Date: 19/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Border not right with Firefox on Flash object
Does anyone know why applying a 1px border using CSS or HTML to a Flash object messes up in Firefox and only displays as a margin along the bottom and half way up the sides? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.12 - Release Date: 15/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New site, same question: opinion?
Print Preview in IE6 cuts off part of the right of the page. Stephen - Original Message - From: Piero Fissore Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 4:05 PM The url is www.immaginecreativa.it/unipn (it's not complete yet). The concept was: standard compliant; accessibility. What do you think about? No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.5 - Release Date: 07/04/2005
[WSG] Multiple classes applied to one element
From what I understand, if you want to apply multiple classes to the one element, you do the following: p class=class1 class2 Is this proper valid code accepted in modern browsers or is there anything I should know to concern me with about using it? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.1 - Release Date: 01/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Multiple classes applied to one element
- Original Message - From: Kornel Lesinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] Except that multiple classes selector doesn't really work in Internet Explorer, ofcourse. http://www.quirksmode.org/css/multipleclasses.html Are you meant/allowed to define classes like that page says: The example given is a definition of: p.underline.small (See the page for all the definitions.) The example above is a definition for when an element uses both of these classes (which both have their own definitions), but that is going one step further than I need. Up to now I would not define a class like that, but maybe it is valid. Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.1 - Release Date: 01/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Two images on the one line
What is the simplest way to line two images up together on the one line, with a gap in-between and a caption centred below the image. The left image should be aligned left against the container, and the right image aligned right against the container. I think I've been working on this too long... Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.1 - Release Date: 01/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Two images on the one line
Hi Mani, Thanks for that. It looks nice in Firefox but doesn't work in IE6. Stephen - Original Message - From: Mani Sheriar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 7:19 PM Try this: XHTML --- div id=container --snip-- View it: http://www.manisheriar.com/wsg/twoImages/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.1 - Release Date: 01/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Shrink to accomodate what it contains
Tables will shrink to the width of what they will contain. Is it possible to do this with a div to contain an image with a caption centred below it, without having to set the div to the exact width of the image? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.1 - Release Date: 01/04/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Extra hidden content
How do you handle the situation of hidden elements becoming displayed when the normal stylesheet is not used? Is this a problem that concerns you? For example, I quite often have two headers - one which integrates with the site design when viewed on screen, and one which is used for printing (simplified, no background colours etc). Various other elements might be hidden and shown when printing, such as side elements removed etc to narrow the page for printing. The problem can come when the page is viewed without the stylesheet, and two headers can be displayed, for example. What do you think of this? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.0 - Release Date: 31/03/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Simple 2 column layout?
- Original Message - From: Lachlan Hardy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Despite my strong disapproval of fixed width (I know, I know, the redesign is coming), the following works for me Do you object to a column being a fixed width? I understand your objection to a fixed width overall layout, but why object to a column being fixed width? As a side issue to that, if you have a 2 or 3 column layout with background colours and all heights to be equal, and you do not know the width of each column (NOT fixed width), how then do you use the background image hack for the colours of the columns? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 15/03/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Simple 2 column layout?
Interesting, interesting. I how have a left column with a percentage width, and a right column without a width. The wrap div surrounding everything has a width of 92%. So far it's working quite well. Now I want to handle the problem of the page being resized to a narrow width which causes the right column div to jump below the left floated column. I don't want this. What would you advise? Use the min-width property, along with the PVII Set Min Width extension? http://www.projectseven.com/extensions/info/minwidth/ Thanks, Stephen - Original Message - From: Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 2:27 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Simple 2 column layout? Hi, How about *not* giving the second col a width (the one that is not in fixed width) Kim Trusz, Andrew wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stevio Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 6:08 PM To: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] Simple 2 column layout? Thanks for that, getting those widths right always annoys me cause the box model doesn't work right! To expand on the simple 2 column layout, how can I have a fixed width left column (for navigation) and a right column that fills the rest of the space. This is achieved in tables by setting the left cell to, for example, 150 width, and the right column to 100%. Thanks, Stephen =** There's a conceptual issue here. The point of styling with css is to get out of the box of one's own monitor and to style for the range of devices available to users. That's users not authors. The only way to do this is to maximize flexibility. This is where the ease of tables fails. Set a pixel fixed width for a left cell, let the right cell fill the screen. Now increase the screen resolution. The amount of real estate to fill in the right cell just increased dramatically. Go the other way, keep decreasing the screen width to a cell phone or pda. The screen real estate is gobbled up by the fixed with left cell and the right cell an undecipherable sliver. Start to change font size and it just gets worse. The fixed width left cell disintegrates. The right cell holds coherency longer. Overall, it just doesn't work well. Percentages offer a partial solution. At lower resolutions a percentage based column setup holds up pretty much down to the single word width, a bit longer than may actually be useful. For higher resolutions, the single line column problem doubles with both cells being single lines with the added possibility of a lot of real estate separating the end of one text grouping and the beginning of the other. Font size, however, starts to cause the same kinds of problems. Huge, gigantic letters breaking out all over. Fixing the right cell size only compounds the problem. That leaves em's for sizing. One can set a width for either or both columns which will better withstand resolution and font changes in both directions. The problem is how big is an em? It's really such a flexible measure that it makes people uncomfortable. How many em to a line? What looks good on changes of screen resolution can frankly look a little flakey and shabby on different monitors with the same resolution. It does look slightly odd when the header graphic is off center a tiny bit. This leads to discussions of being a pixel or two off on header positions etc. Although designing for slightly less than viewport maximum will fix most all of that by compacting the design. So you want 2 simple columns? Then make 2 columns. Float both of them. Left or right, determined by whichever content you want to come first in the code. Float them because then they are columns not a float sitting on a wide margined normal flowed element. Fix their width with em to maximize durability and usability. And this is where the box model shines. It's just the sum of seven components: 1 content, 2 paddings, 2 borders, and 2 margins, side to side and up and down, all constrained by the width of the container, if any. Change those factors and one changes the appearance of the columns without compromising the content or the accessibility of the content. And that's the beauty of css for styling. Allows both users and authors to separately control how pretty the picture is; once the authors learn to let trust users. Brilliant design actually. drew ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help
Re: [WSG] Simple 2 column layout?
Thanks for that, getting those widths right always annoys me cause the box
model doesn't work right!
To expand on the simple 2 column layout, how can I have a fixed width left
column (for navigation) and a right column that fills the rest of the space.
This is achieved in tables by setting the left cell to, for example, 150
width, and the right column to 100%.
Thanks,
Stephen
- Original Message -
From: Lachlan Hardy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2005 7:27 PM
You didn't ask for header and footer, but if you don't want them just
remove...
HTML:
body
div id=header...some header content.../div
div id=somecol...some column content.../div
div id=someothercol...some other column content.../div
div id=footer...some footer content.../div
/body
CSS:
#somecol {
float: left;
margin-left: 1%;
width: 40%;
}
#someothercol {
float: left;
margin-left: 1%;
width: 40%;
}
#footer {
clear: both;
}
Increase the widths as appropriate, just remember that percentages are
dealt with slightly differently by most browsers (all?) so that widths
that work in one may not work in all others - basically, the widths and
margins should never amount to 100%, but in some browsers a better number
is 98% total
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
[WSG] Simple 2 column layout?
What is the simplest way to layout 2 columns? Nothing fancy, just a bit of content in each one. No background colour. Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.3 - Release Date: 15/03/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Information about validation logos
I have put together a page using some information from various sites and adding / changing bits to come up with the following page: http://www.fit2gether.co.uk/aboutsite.html You will see that there is a small link at the bottom of the page that a user can click on to get to this page. What do you think of the way I have done this and what I have on this page? That's the web site complete now barring any final changes requested. Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.0 - Release Date: 02/03/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Logos explanations
Also, does anyone know of a good web site that details clearly and concisely all the main things you should do to make a web site accessible? The best source is the WAI guidelines. Sites must comply with priority 1, should comply with priority 2 and may comply with priority 3: http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/full-checklist.html Some of this is a bit subjective. Does a web designer just go through it and decide himself if the web site they have made meets the checkpoints? e.g. 14.1 Use the clearest and simplest language appropriate for a site's content. That is very subjective. There is a simpler web standards checklist (which covers basic accessibility) here: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/checklist.cfm Thanks. Do you ever feel overwhelmed at the amount of validation and accessibility guidelines that new sites should be tested by and meet? Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.0 - Release Date: 02/03/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] getting two colums to be of the same height
From: Marco van Hylckama Vlieg [EMAIL PROTECTED] Is there any cross browser, standards compliant way to get those two grey columns to be the same height? Use tables ;-) Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.306 / Virus Database: 266.5.1 - Release Date: 27/02/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] To display or not to display validation logos?
Has anyone written anything like this we could use? Also, excuse my slight ignorance here, but just because a page validates as XHTML and CSS compatible, does that make it accessible? Obviously it helps, but there is more to accessibility than that isn't there. I also use tables in my pages in a couple of places, for the main navigation links and for the 2 column layout of the main content area. Thanks, Stephen - Original Message - From: Kornel Lesinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 11:09 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] To display or not to display validation logos? Perhaps we need a simple page to link to, explaining what standards are for,in terms that the non-tech viewer can appreciate? I like that idea... -- regards, Kornel Lesiski -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.306 / Virus Database: 266.5.0 - Release Date: 25/02/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
