RE: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
For me, a front-end developer fulfills the role of the glue between the designer and the back-end developer. Accordingly, the FE developer needs a high-level understanding of both the designer and BE developer's skills. In the real world the FE developer may get his/her hands dirty with a bit of both as well as FE stuff. According to Mike Davies (front-end developer at Yahoo! and Ex technical lead developer for Legal General) at the WSG London meeting in February explained that the poor performance of LG's site in no small part stemmed from developers wanting to move on up the ladder from FE development to the serious stuff of BE development. Consequently, no one was an expert in FE development (web standards and accessibility) and as a result their website's economic performance suffered greatly. The point he made was that developers, in general, don't want to specialise in FE development, because they can earn more doing the BE stuff. What LG discovered was that by doing a decent FE job it greatly improved their ROI. Listen to his account of the LG process here: http://muffinresearch.co.uk/wsg/audio/07/02/28/mike.mp3 Mike said after the LG project he made a deliberate decision to specialise in FE development, and took on the Yahoo job to do just that. Personally, I think designers, FE and BE developers need to accept and appreciate the other disciplines and stop being so precious about their own set of skills - team work guys. :) On a practical note, general qualifications can give a broad knowledge of the different areas, but we all need to specialise, which is where CPD comes into play. And that's where I see the dutch having made a bold/couragous move in doing what they've started. Let's observe and learn. Richard Williams No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.0/887 - Release Date: 05/07/2007 13:55 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
The datastore/backend guys will just make sure the data is in a nice format (JSON or something) and that its accessible from a url - their job is done my friends. Ouch. For me this points up the absurdity of the demarcation between front-end and back-end developer. Unless each of us understands the whole sweep of it we're going to make stupid mistakes that will make everyone else in our team miserable. Spare me, please, from working with someone who believes that their job is done at the boundary of any particular technology or technique. In my experience everything in this field is too interconnected for that kind of separation to work. It drives me crazy when graphic designers hand me one Photoshop mockup per page and figure that their job of designing the site is done. To do a decent job, a web graphic designer needs to understand CSS which requires familiarity with HTML markup and browser technology, and it helps hugely if they understand the economies of scripting, the logic of database queries, and the fundamentals of many other technologies that superficially have nothing to do with graphic design. Just as a good print designer needs to understand papers, inks, and printing technologies, a web graphic designer needs to know the stuff that the page is made of in order to make competent decisions. Looking at it from the back end, there are convoluted handshakes between MySQL and PHP and HTML and JavaScript and CSS, and bingo you're doing graphic design. Even if we don't do all the work ourselves we have to maintain a healthy appreciation for the limits, requirements, and efficiencies of all the technologies in the daisy chain if we're going to produce really great work. Of course there's a difference between 'having an understanding' of a technology and actually practicing it. I'm familiar with many of the capabilities of Photoshop, for example, even while I acknowledge that I'm a novice user and pass the fine work along to my partner the graphics expert. But when I'm engineering the back end of a project my consciousness has to extend all the way to the very front or we'll end up with something that's lame at best, broken at worst, a disappointment to the client, and expensive to fix. I appreciate the efforts of the folks in the Netherlands to come up with some standards of expertise by which they can judge a worker's competence, but the front-end/back-end model that's driven this discussion waves warning flags for me. I think it's a potentially harmful paradigm if formalized into job categories with impermeable boundaries. Did anyone but me read A.E. van Vogt's Voyage of the Space Beagle as a kid? Specialists are handy appliances, but give me a nexialist any day if you want a brilliant solution. Regards, Paul __ Paul Novitski Juniper Webcraft Ltd. http://juniperwebcraft.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
I think the question should not be which languages are you good at?, but what you have comprehensive awareness of. I'm also inclined to believe that's what ppk is likely to be focussing on - because just as much as he has a great sense of design and is one of javascript's greatest, his greatest focus has always been standards advocacy and spreading healthy attitudes in web dev. As so many people have pointed out, simply saying you've got good working knowledge of css and php is fine for a job - and as things to be demanded for a specific gig those are useful terms - but as career attributes they're simply no good because of the failure of such statements to address the constantly evolving media and the world around them. I would classify myself as a front-ender, but not because of my focus on design work - or my greater aptitude in ecma, css and markup compared to my php, asp or python. I think the greater qualification comes in standards awareness and interest/participation in the development of standards-concerned technologies. Given time I can learn pretty much any code, but what 'back-enders' value about me at work is not my clear understanding of the overflow property - it's the fact that I'll know when and why a particular browser will exhibit certain behaviour and how to fix it; or why a navigation system based on images without alt text is criminal; or how to ensure complete accessibility in a pre-made site while still having everything look the same. Likewise what back-enders have that I appreciate most is the ability to tell me why my sql databases aren't updating; why my server's ground to a halt; how I can ensure user security on a cms; etc. I reckon it's far more to do with practical ability and healthy thinking than literal knowledge. Lucien Stals wrote: That's interesting. I wonder how many of us are in a similar position? In my role, I work in a multimedia group of 5. (1 illustrator, 1 graphic designer, 1 multi media developer who does some front end web stuff, our manager and myself). I maintain many static web pages on our public site, and develop new stuff which is mainly static html, but also develop some php/mysql stuff and some javascript. The web sites server is maintained by the IT department. I've also recently become the maintainer of our intranet server (win2003 server which I know next to nothing about). This involves maintaining the server itself as well as maintenance of applications on the server and some development in php/mysql. What do the rest of you do? How many of us *don't* have to be a jack-of-all-trades? Lucien. Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, Jul 5, 2007 at 10:41 AM, Kevin Futter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/7/07 9:37 AM, Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I missed something in the original question. The front end part. Somebody else categorised some of the technologies as back end and that got me wondering. When I said I was a web developer, I meant back end development. So what is front end development? DHTML? Anything not related to visual design but *not* talking to a back end system? (as opposed to front end design) Developing for the web is such a mixed bag, I just can't see an easy way to categorise things into dev/design or front end / back end. I like Bruce's suggestion for a break down, but he too acknowledges the grey area around development. And I'd say that once you touch the db, you are definitely back end, not front end. In the end I guess I question the validity of defining developers in terms of front end and back end. Can we just stick to designers and developers? Lucien. I work in a school as part of a team of 3 IT people, so I need to be able to do it all - from configuring the server to developing the databases to designing the interfaces to building the back- end to crafting the HTML/CSS to coding the JavaScript where necessary. So, roles like that do indeed exist, especially in small businesses or where this kind of work is not core business. Am I an expert practitioner of all these disciplines and technologies? Of course not, but I get the job done, and know how to find out what I need to know. Your biggest asset in this game is your problem- solving ability, regardless of how you define your role. For the record, I usually describe myself as a 'web developer', but my school defines my role as 'IT Support'. (I'm also responsible for my share of IT support and staff training too, so it doesn't even end there!) Kevin Swinburne University of Technology CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
I would classify myself as a front-ender, but not because of my focus on design work - or my greater aptitude in ecma, css and markup compared to my php, asp or python. I think the greater qualification comes in standards awareness and interest/participation in the development of standards-concerned technologies. Just 2cents fromt he application world. I've been working with enterprise web applications for several years and the distinctions are actually pretty clear in our RFP's I work as an Information Architect, UI Designer, a Web Designer, a Human Factors Engineer and/or a Functional Analyst. The Front End Developers do the jsp, struts, ruby, set up of CVS/Perforce/Whatever, etc. The back-enders (programmers) do database, hibernate, etc. My end product is OO templates for the Front End Developers to use, with the html/css in a format meant to be served as headers, footer, navigational division (for role based presentation) so that they only deal with the content areas once the template parts are in the system. I also do all the wireframes, on one end and the html, css, js, and a fully working prototype that's used for reviews and by QA. Susan *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
Hi, I'm quite amazed by the somewhat nervous responses of people who are afraid of 'strict seperation', cause there is no such thing and there won't be any just because you use the term front-end developer'. Of course front-end developers need some basic knowledge of other areas of web development. That's obvious and not different from any other profession. You always need to know things about the other professions in your branche. If only for the fact that you need to know when to ask these colleagues for advise. But that doesn't mean it's not okay to have front-end specialists or to have a proper name for these specialists. In too many companies front-end development is still treated as the mentaly retarded little brother of programming. 'Something all programmers can do' (or designers for that matter). It is not! Well, at least not if want to do a decent job. By giving it its own name, people/companies will start to see that it's a specialism of its own. Even though the exact boundaries can be very blurry. cheers, Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
It's an interesting question. I don't like titles, but when I got my business cards printed up for my current job, I had them call me a web developer because I have the skills you listed. (And since AJAX requires knowledge of Javascript and XML, or some other transport format, then I'd say it falls into the developer category.) I specifically don't call myself a web designer because my design skills are far short of what I would expect from a designer. (And I'm talking about designer strictly in the context of visual/graphic design.) I know my way around Fireworks, and I've even got a degree in fine arts (sculpture) under my belt. But I've worked with designers, and I know I'm not one. Obviously many people in the web field wear different hats, and most of us don't comfortably fit into a clean and clear definition of designer or developer. I've done enough jobs where I did all the design work as well. They would have been better, and more expensive, if there had been a proper designer involved. But I know, and like, the code cutting side of the web. So I call myself a developer. Lucien. Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Wed, Jul 4, 2007 at 4:55 PM, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested in the front end part of the Dutch group's name. We were having a discussion at work the other day about which skills you should have to have in order to call yourself a web developer. I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following: * HTML * CSS * Javascript * XML * Perl or PHP * SQL but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to call themselves a web developer? You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop (non- interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really a programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately? However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do we call someone with all the skills above? == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Swinburne University of Technology CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment. Please consider the environment before printing this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
hey John :) I think highlighting AJAX as a technology would be like highlighting POSH. But that's an interesting point to raise, because there are technical skill sets and methodological/ philosophical approaches to applying technical skills. I think this is perhaps where skills like AJAX, standards, semantics, accessibility and POSH (as much as I do *dislike* that term) fit in. Lisa On 04/07/07, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested in the front end part of the Dutch group's name. We were having a discussion at work the other day about which skills you should have to have in order to call yourself a web developer. I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following: * HTML * CSS * Javascript * XML * Perl or PHP * SQL but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to call themselves a web developer? You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop (non-interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really a programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately? However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do we call someone with all the skills above? = The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. = *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No, you cannot make your navigation out of turtles that move across the screen and are only available for forty percent of the day - Sean Madden *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
Extensive knowledge on HTML, CSS and Javascript would be what i call a 'front end-developer'. But even then that isn't enough, front-end developers should have alot of knowledge in the Accessiblity and Usability, and if they are can design aswell, thats all the better. When i say extensive, i mean understanding the ins and outs of the above not just enough to get you by. PHP and SQL are back-end, i dont know of many companies who will employ 1 guy to do all the jobs. I had the unfortunate job 2 years ago, a company i was doing work exerience at employed me for £100 a week and 10% on the overall price for the job, which was poor, and i had to do everything. I walked out within 3 days, they expected me to complete full blown systems within days. I know all of the above, apart from perl, ive never used it, i doubt i will need to, but i wouldn't advertise the fact i can do 'ALL' the jobs on my own in the same time it would take a team of developers. To much hard work, so little money. Theres my 2 pence. On 7/4/07, lisa herrod [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hey John :) I think highlighting AJAX as a technology would be like highlighting POSH. But that's an interesting point to raise, because there are technical skill sets and methodological/ philosophical approaches to applying technical skills. I think this is perhaps where skills like AJAX, standards, semantics, accessibility and POSH (as much as I do *dislike* that term) fit in. Lisa On 04/07/07, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm interested in the front end part of the Dutch group's name. We were having a discussion at work the other day about which skills you should have to have in order to call yourself a web developer. I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following: * HTML * CSS * Javascript * XML * Perl or PHP * SQL but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to call themselves a web developer? You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop (non-interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really a programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately? However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do we call someone with all the skills above? = The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. = *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- No, you cannot make your navigation out of turtles that move across the screen and are only available for forty percent of the day - Sean Madden *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
On 7/3/07, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following: * HTML * CSS * Javascript * XML * Perl or PHP * SQL but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to call themselves a web developer? You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop (non-interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really a programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately? However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do we call someone with all the skills above? The company I will be working at in the fall separates the back-end developers (PHP MySQL, ASP, Perl) from the front-end developers (HTML, CSS, Javascript). The front-end developers might have to know some back-end languages to a degree, but you really can do a lot with just HTML, CSS, Javascript, and XML. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.net .. designtocss.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
John Horner schreef: I'm interested in the front end part of the Dutch group's name. We were having a discussion at work the other day about which skills you should have to have in order to call yourself a web developer. I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following: * HTML * CSS * Javascript * XML * Perl or PHP * SQL but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to call themselves a web developer? I guess the minimum would be one of those from your list (although there are many more languages/databases can be used of course). As soon as you're working with code for the web, being either markup or scripting/programming, you may call yourself a web developer in my opinion. In the Netherlands 'web developer' is mostly used for back-end developers though, of for people who do both front-end and back-end. As long as it's a free profession, knowledge about best practices and web standards are not really required. They are of course if you want to be a good front-end developer. But if you built IE-only sites in a 1996 manner or just all Flash sites, you're still a web developer. On the other hand... if you're an expert in accessibility or usability, but you don't work on the code itself, you're not a developer in my opinion, but an architect, consultant or interaction designer. In most cases there's a great overlap though. I use the term 'web designer' for visual and interaction designers working for the web and 'webmaster' for those who are responsible for maintaining the content. To sum things up, for me a front-end developer uses at least one of the following techniques: - (X)HTML - CSS - JavaScript (client side) - Flash (?) cheers, Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
... To sum things up, for me a front-end developer uses at least one of the following techniques: - (X)HTML - CSS - JavaScript (client side) - Flash (?) I think that even for front-end developer some level of the knowledge about web servers and HTTP is essential. And cross-browser development, of course. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
Rimantas Liubertas schreef: ... To sum things up, for me a front-end developer uses at least one of the following techniques: - (X)HTML - CSS - JavaScript (client side) - Flash (?) I think that even for front-end developer some level of the knowledge about web servers and HTTP is essential. And cross-browser development, of course. Only if you want to be a better front-end developer, maybe. cheers, Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
This is an interesting discussion. I find I cannot/don't want to call myself a web designer, and have been using the term developer because of the fact I am more into and better at php, mysql, xml and the cms aspect than design. Designer- appearance, structure including web standards layout. Developer- the mechanics of the site, publishing it (cms), programming up to a poficiency level (grey area), and development of xml, php, databases etc.. Programmer - works with a major programming language at a very high proficiency level and can program from scratch. I consider web standards and the cms the foundation that all three build upon. Bruce P bkdesign - Original Message - From: John Horner To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 2:55 AM Subject: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer? I'm interested in the front end part of the Dutch group's name. We were having a discussion at work the other day about which skills you should have to have in order to call yourself a web developer. I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following: * HTML * CSS * Javascript * XML * Perl or PHP * SQL but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to call themselves a web developer? You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop (non-interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really a programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately? However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do we call someone with all the skills above? = The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. = *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
I think I missed something in the original question. The front end part. Somebody else categorised some of the technologies as back end and that got me wondering. When I said I was a web developer, I meant back end development. So what is front end development? DHTML? Anything not related to visual design but *not* talking to a back end system? (as opposed to front end design) Developing for the web is such a mixed bag, I just can't see an easy way to categorise things into dev/design or front end / back end. I like Bruce's suggestion for a break down, but he too acknowledges the grey area around development. And I'd say that once you touch the db, you are definitely back end, not front end. In the end I guess I question the validity of defining developers in terms of front end and back end. Can we just stick to designers and developers? Lucien. Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Wed, Jul 4, 2007 at 10:57 PM, Bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is an interesting discussion. I find I cannot/don't want to call myself a web designer, and have been using the term developer because of the fact I am more into and better at php, mysql, xml and the cms aspect than design. Designer- appearance, structure including web standards layout. Developer- the mechanics of the site, publishing it (cms), programming up to a poficiency level (grey area), and development of xml, php, databases etc.. Programmer - works with a major programming language at a very high proficiency level and can program from scratch. I consider web standards and the cms the foundation that all three build upon. Bruce P bkdesign - Original Message - From: John Horner To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 2:55 AM Subject: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer? I'm interested in the front end part of the Dutch group's name. We were having a discussion at work the other day about which skills you should have to have in order to call yourself a web developer. I just finished a project which required knowledge of the following: * HTML * CSS * Javascript * XML * Perl or PHP * SQL but what's the minimum set of skills we think someone should have to call themselves a web developer? You could make a case, I'm sure, for just HTML and CSS. You develop (non- interactive) web pages with HTML and CSS. Javascript is really a programming language. Should AJAX be listed seperately? However, if that's enough to call yourself a web developer, what do we call someone with all the skills above? = The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. = *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Swinburne University of Technology CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment. Please consider
RE: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
i wouldn't advertise the fact i can do 'ALL' the jobs on my own in the same time it would take a team of developers. To much hard work, so little money. That's an interesting point in itself. Should you try to be a one-stop-shop? It's certainly a lot easier for the client, but how good can anyone's skills be if spread over five or six disciplines? I speak as someone who discovered the double field in MySQL only last week. I'm also thinking a web developer needs to be competent in at least one high-end graphics tool, probably Photoshop by default. When a graphic designer passes you a PSD file with 47 layers in various groups, each with layer styles and featuring fonts you don't have, you need to be able to sort it out. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
On 05/07/07, Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I like Bruce's suggestion for a break down, but he too acknowledges the grey area around development. And I'd say that once you touch the db, you are definitely back end, not front end. In the end I guess I question the validity of defining developers in terms of front end and back end. Can we just stick to designers and developers? I must admit, I tend to categorise work as front-end or back-end based on whether or not a database (or some other data repository, such as complex XML files) is involved. As soon as you're doing anything more than a static web page, it's moved into back-end territory. My definition of designer vs developer is these days coloured by the company I'm working for. The designers are the people who come up with the ideas and the layouts and the graphics. The developers are the people who write code, be that (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript, ColdFusion, PHP, etc. And as with everything in this industry, there are a lot of grey areas in both sets of definitions. Some of our designers, for example, are starting to learn a bit about (X)HTML and CSS and are providing us with basic style sheets along with the design proofs so that we at least start with all of the colours and sizes that they had in mind. We then tweak them as we work to play around with positioning and all of the other complex stuff. Just my thoughts, anyway. :) Cheers, Seona. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
Seona Bellamy wrote: My definition of designer vs developer is these days coloured by the company I'm working for. The designers are the people who come up with the ideas and the layouts and the graphics. The developers are the people who write code, be that (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript, ColdFusion, PHP, etc. although i would like to think of myself as a developer, i guess i'm really a designer. i write (x)html and css, but have little or no experience with php, mysql or javascript. so i write mostly static pages, but the clientèle i write for don't need much in a dynamic web site; however, that should not prevent me from learning php, javascript and mysql. so i guess you could say i'm a front-end developer due to certain lacking skills to make me a full fledged developer. dwain -- Dwain Alford web: http://www.studiokdd.com The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
On 5/7/07 9:37 AM, Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I missed something in the original question. The front end part. Somebody else categorised some of the technologies as back end and that got me wondering. When I said I was a web developer, I meant back end development. So what is front end development? DHTML? Anything not related to visual design but *not* talking to a back end system? (as opposed to front end design) Developing for the web is such a mixed bag, I just can't see an easy way to categorise things into dev/design or front end / back end. I like Bruce's suggestion for a break down, but he too acknowledges the grey area around development. And I'd say that once you touch the db, you are definitely back end, not front end. In the end I guess I question the validity of defining developers in terms of front end and back end. Can we just stick to designers and developers? Lucien. I work in a school as part of a team of 3 IT people, so I need to be able to do it all - from configuring the server to developing the databases to designing the interfaces to building the back-end to crafting the HTML/CSS to coding the JavaScript where necessary. So, roles like that do indeed exist, especially in small businesses or where this kind of work is not core business. Am I an expert practitioner of all these disciplines and technologies? Of course not, but I get the job done, and know how to find out what I need to know. Your biggest asset in this game is your problem-solving ability, regardless of how you define your role. For the record, I usually describe myself as a 'web developer', but my school defines my role as 'IT Support'. (I'm also responsible for my share of IT support and staff training too, so it doesn't even end there!) Kevin -- Kevin Futter Webmaster, St. Bernard's College http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/ # This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by MailMarshal # This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not disclose or use the information in this e-mail if you are not the intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. The College does not guarantee that this e-mail is virus or error free. The attached files are provided and may only be used on the basis that the user assumes all responsibility for any loss, damage or consequence resulting directly or indirectly from the use of the attached files, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or not. The content and opinions in this e-mail are not necessarily those of the College. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
On 05/07/07, dwain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seona Bellamy wrote: My definition of designer vs developer is these days coloured by the company I'm working for. The designers are the people who come up with the ideas and the layouts and the graphics. The developers are the people who write code, be that (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript, ColdFusion, PHP, etc. although i would like to think of myself as a developer, i guess i'm really a designer. i write (x)html and css, but have little or no experience with php, mysql or javascript. so i write mostly static pages, but the clientèle i write for don't need much in a dynamic web site; however, that should not prevent me from learning php, javascript and mysql. so i guess you could say i'm a front-end developer due to certain lacking skills to make me a full fledged developer. That's probably a fair enough assessment, although I don't think you should compare being a front-end developer to being a fully-fledged developer as if the former were necessarily a bad thing. As you say, if your clients don't demand much beyond static pages, then that is what you are going to build. On the other hand, I do agree that it shouldn't prevent you from learning the other side of things, if for no other reason than that you'll be prepared if a client comes along who DOES want more than a static site. And, of course, you'd also have the option to try upselling some of your existing clients. ;) Cheers, Seona. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
On 05/07/07, John Horner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i wouldn't advertise the fact i can do 'ALL' the jobs on my own in the same time it would take a team of developers. To much hard work, so little money. That's an interesting point in itself. Should you try to be a one-stop-shop? It's certainly a lot easier for the client, but how good can anyone's skills be if spread over five or six disciplines? I speak as someone who discovered the double field in MySQL only last week. That's a really good point. Having worked for myself for a number of years, trying to be a one-stop-shop, I can vouch for the fact that it's almost impossible to be great at everything. This was highlighted for me when I started subbing out the design work to a graphic artist friend of mine. I tend to sum up my skills these days as I can make sites that look good, but a trained graphic artist can make sites that look WOW! :) I do agree that it is important to be able to find your way around a graphics program or two, both so that you can deal with the designs your graphics person hands you and so that you can speak the same language as them when you're talking about a job. *grin* Nothing like not understanding the jargon to open the door to mistakes. Cheers, Seona. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
That's interesting. I wonder how many of us are in a similar position? In my role, I work in a multimedia group of 5. (1 illustrator, 1 graphic designer, 1 multi media developer who does some front end web stuff, our manager and myself). I maintain many static web pages on our public site, and develop new stuff which is mainly static html, but also develop some php/mysql stuff and some javascript. The web sites server is maintained by the IT department. I've also recently become the maintainer of our intranet server (win2003 server which I know next to nothing about). This involves maintaining the server itself as well as maintenance of applications on the server and some development in php/mysql. What do the rest of you do? How many of us *don't* have to be a jack-of-all-trades? Lucien. Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Thu, Jul 5, 2007 at 10:41 AM, Kevin Futter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/7/07 9:37 AM, Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think I missed something in the original question. The front end part. Somebody else categorised some of the technologies as back end and that got me wondering. When I said I was a web developer, I meant back end development. So what is front end development? DHTML? Anything not related to visual design but *not* talking to a back end system? (as opposed to front end design) Developing for the web is such a mixed bag, I just can't see an easy way to categorise things into dev/design or front end / back end. I like Bruce's suggestion for a break down, but he too acknowledges the grey area around development. And I'd say that once you touch the db, you are definitely back end, not front end. In the end I guess I question the validity of defining developers in terms of front end and back end. Can we just stick to designers and developers? Lucien. I work in a school as part of a team of 3 IT people, so I need to be able to do it all - from configuring the server to developing the databases to designing the interfaces to building the back- end to crafting the HTML/CSS to coding the JavaScript where necessary. So, roles like that do indeed exist, especially in small businesses or where this kind of work is not core business. Am I an expert practitioner of all these disciplines and technologies? Of course not, but I get the job done, and know how to find out what I need to know. Your biggest asset in this game is your problem- solving ability, regardless of how you define your role. For the record, I usually describe myself as a 'web developer', but my school defines my role as 'IT Support'. (I'm also responsible for my share of IT support and staff training too, so it doesn't even end there!) Kevin Swinburne University of Technology CRICOS Provider Code: 00111D NOTICE This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and intended only for the use of the addressee. They may contain information that is privileged or protected by copyright. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution, printing, copying or use is strictly prohibited. The University does not warrant that this e-mail and any attachments are secure and there is also a risk that it may be corrupted in transmission. It is your responsibility to check any attachments for viruses or defects before opening them. If you have received this transmission in error, please contact us on +61 3 9214 8000 and delete it immediately from your system. We do not accept liability in connection with computer virus, data corruption, delay, interruption, unauthorised access or unauthorised amendment. Please consider the environment before printing this email. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
On 05/07/07, Lucien Stals [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do the rest of you do? How many of us *don't* have to be a jack-of-all-trades? I guess that partly depends how you define all trades. Now that I no longer have to do graphical work, I simply consider myself a web developer. That said, this includes working with (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript when I can't avoid it, ColdFusion, and MS SQL. So some people might consider that being a bit cross-trade, if you like, because I'm working with both front and and back end technologies. Because of where I started, though, I see it as being able to concentrate on what I do best and leaving the pretties to someone else. ;) ~Seona. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
Seona Bellamy wrote: On 05/07/07, *dwain* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seona Bellamy wrote: My definition of designer vs developer is these days coloured by the company I'm working for. The designers are the people who come up with the ideas and the layouts and the graphics. The developers are the people who write code, be that (X)HTML, CSS, JavaScript, ColdFusion, PHP, etc. although i would like to think of myself as a developer, i guess i'm really a designer. i write (x)html and css, but have little or no experience with php, mysql or javascript. so i write mostly static pages, but the clientèle i write for don't need much in a dynamic web site; however, that should not prevent me from learning php, javascript and mysql. so i guess you could say i'm a front-end developer due to certain lacking skills to make me a full fledged developer. That's probably a fair enough assessment, although I don't think you should compare being a front-end developer to being a fully-fledged developer as if the former were necessarily a bad thing. i hope that i didn't imply that a front end developer is less of a developer that a full fledged developer. i guess what i meant is that i'm not a well rounded developer yet to be a full fledged developer (front and back end). cheers, dwain -- Dwain Alford web: http://www.studiokdd.com The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Kandinsky *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
Lucien Stals schreef: What do the rest of you do? How many of us *don't* have to be a jack-of-all-trades? Me. I work at a fairly big company (100+ employees, about half of which build websites, other departments focus on SEO, (email) marketing and trainings related to internet). I only deal with front-end stuff these days: XHTML, CSS and JavaScript. The team I'm in consists of 1 other front-end developer, 3 visual designers and 1 interaction designer. I build static templates that are later implemented into CMSs (Sitecore / Smartsite) by others. cheers, Sander *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Who's A Front End Developer?
Javascript is really starting to move into the realm of software/application developer. Currently a bleeding edge javascript programmer has to have extensive knowledge of the entire 'web platform'. This includes: server/datastore programming, sound understanding of client/server architecture, standards compliant content delivery, client end compatibility, event driven and accessible user interface design/implementation. And the list goes on... Now, frankly thats a kick-ass javascript programmer. More than likely, you don't need him - let alone can afford him or can hire him as he's hired already by Yahoo or Google or something... You want someone who knows how to implement a graphic designers ideas into a static, browser compatible and hopefully standard semantic markup with a good separtion of presentation from logic. Anything else is a bonus - a bit of experience with javascript (especially use of a framework like Prototype or Mootools), some experience with Flash is also nice if you are into that sort of thing too. Thats about the level of javascript I believe you need to from a front-end developer. I think though, eventually your front-end developer isn't going to need to know Javascript inside and out. They probably won't need to have such an extensive knowledge of the 'web platform' either. Instead, all the work of on frameworks and libraries will reduce the requirement to know 'everything'. The datastore/backend guys will just make sure the data is in a nice format (JSON or something) and that its accessible from a url - their job is done my friends. User interfaces will probably be designed using IDE's (Check out Tibco if you don't believe me) They will be accessible by default due to the use of better mark-up languages with richer widgets and components. Browsers will be compliant to standards and code will be portable between browser and desktop (We can dream can't we?!) In fact, it will be just like Windows application programming - man how boring! Karl *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
