[Aus-soaring] Visit to Adelaide Airport ATC postponed
Hi All For those that do not already know We had hoped to visit the Adelaide Airport Air traffic control centre tomorrow night but that was unable to be organised with them for this date (it also clashes with the SAGA Airworthiness course). We will advise when we can get a date tied down and email to all. Please forward this message to your club lists. I can only send to two of them :) Apologies for multiple messages for those on multiple lists. -Cath ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
The artificial horizon (AH) will only tell you if you are climbing or descending. It works on the direction you are travelling in. Most larger aircraft will have an angle of attack device, either a vane or probe, mounted on either side of the nose. This can be used in a stall warning system. Stall angle is not as simple on high speed / high altitude aircraft as it is to low speed / low altitude aircraft like gliders. Unlike gliders where the stall angle is a constant, an airliner cruising at ~Mach 0.8 (give or take a bit) stall angle is a complex variable. At those mach numbers it doesn't take too much accelleration of the air flow over (and under) the wing to exceed Mach 1. The presence of strong shock waves on the surface of the wing can greatly alter the lift. The typical affect is that the stall angle is greatly reduced. (Note that the lift that the wing produces per degree of angle of attack increases with Mach number up to a certain point which can compensate a bit.) Note also that when the airliner is low and slow, the stall angle returns to a relative constant as per what we are used to as glider pilots. Stall angle gets really complicated and modern airliners will have a computer to work it all out and provide warning to the crew. Most of the time this takes the form of a 'stick shaker' - a system which mechanically shakes the control column to alert the crew. it is not the first time that this has happened in recent history. I read in an Air Safety magazine relatively recently that an airliner pilot on approach into Alice Springs encountered stall warning twice. The first time he tried to power out of it as allegded with the Air France crew. the second time he remembered to lower the nose as well. On Mon 30/05/11 12:26 PM , DMcD slutsw...@gmail.com sent: I know nothing about nothing which is probably apparent from my postings, but can someone tell me, do instruments like an artificial horizon give these pilots any indication of nose angle or angle of incidence? I was attempting to explain a stall like this to #2 wife and had difficulty understanding why they did not put the nose down or look at an instrument to tell them their AOA since they would have had some minutes to think about this during what appears to have been a tail down plunge. At least if the SOPs have changed, I can persuade her to get on another plane. D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring [1] Links: -- [1] http://webmail-old.internode.on.net/parse.php?redirect=http%3A%2F%2Flists.internode.on.net%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Faus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
On 30/05/2011, at 12:26 PM, DMcD wrote: I was attempting to explain a stall like this to #2 wife and had difficulty understanding why they did not put the nose down or look at an instrument to tell them their AOA since they would have had some minutes to think about this during what appears to have been a tail down plunge. They were at high altitude and flying heavy. Thus Vs and Vmo would have been rather close together. It isn't entirely unusual for an airliner at altitude to only have a 10 - 15 KIAS range between maximum speed and stall speed. Indications from the flight data recorder released so far are that something happened which made all of the flight computers trip offline at the same time (possibly all three pitot/static probes icing over at the same time - speculation) In very short order, that'd have disengaged the autopilot, placed the aircraft into alternate law (where overspeed and stalling protections are disabled), and killed almost all of the instruments. The screens would have been full of cautions and warnings from the tripped systems, and audible alarms would have been blaring through the cockpit. At high altitude, when Vs and Vmo are close together, and the autopilot/autothrottles are offline, virtually any disturbance in the outside air or applied to the sidestick would have either made the aircraft stall or overspeed. The aircraft was in a thunderstorm, so there's your disturbance in the outside air. No vertical speed indication, no altimeter, no horizon reference at night in a thunderstorm, no ASI. So probably no way of recovering from the stall. - mark I tried an internal modem,new...@atdot.dotat.org but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
On 30/05/2011, at 5:07 PM, anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net wrote: Stall angle gets really complicated and modern airliners will have a computer to work it all out and provide warning to the crew. Most of the time this takes the form of a 'stick shaker' - a system which mechanically shakes the control column to alert the crew. Airbus aircraft don't have stickshakers, because Normal Law is supposed to make stalls impossible (the aircraft will override the pilot by adjusting power, pitch and height as the stall approaches) There's an audible alarm instead (sounds like a chirping of crickets). it is not the first time that this has happened in recent history. I read in an Air Safety magazine relatively recently that an airliner pilot on approach into Alice Springs encountered stall warning twice. That's one of the catalysts for Sen. Xenophon's current Senate inquiry into air safety. Another was sparked by a different crew in a Q400 approaching Mascot last year, which experienced a stick shaker warning and initiated a go-around, then had another stick-shaker warning on the second landing attempt and continued the approach regardless. (and the bodgied-up go-around procedures. and the microburst takeoff. and the near-miss north of Tullamarine... :) - mark I tried an internal modem,new...@atdot.dotat.org but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] FW: Stalls
It seems like Qantas have it right... QUICK REFERENCE HANDBOOK A330 STALL RECOVERY rec As soon as any stall indication (could be aural warning, buffet) is recognised, apply the immediate actions : - NOSE DOWN PITCH CONTROL .APPLY This will reduce angle of attack. Note:. In case of lack of pitch down authority, reducing thrust may be necessary. - BANK.. - BANK... .. WINGS LEVEL When out of stall (no longer stall indications): - THRUST.. INCREASE SMOTTHLY AS NEEDED Note:. In case of one engine inoperative, progressively compensate the thrust asymmetry with rudder. - SPEEDBRAKES.. - FLIGHT PATH. RECOVERY SMOOTHLY If in clean configuration and below 20 000 feet: - FLAP 1 ... SELECT -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring- boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011 10:57 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls WTF http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/05/28/357321/revised-stall- procedures-centre-on-angle-of-attack-not.html Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
As Mark says stall angle is complicated but they manage to present a lot of it on the primary flight display alongside the airspeed strip: cid:image001.gif@01CC1EFA.198ADD10 From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mark Newton Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011 6:32 PM To: anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Cc: DMcD Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls On 30/05/2011, at 5:07 PM, anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net wrote: Stall angle gets really complicated and modern airliners will have a computer to work it all out and provide warning to the crew. Most of the time this takes the form of a 'stick shaker' - a system which mechanically shakes the control column to alert the crew. Airbus aircraft don't have stickshakers, because Normal Law is supposed to make stalls impossible (the aircraft will override the pilot by adjusting power, pitch and height as the stall approaches) There's an audible alarm instead (sounds like a chirping of crickets). it is not the first time that this has happened in recent history. I read in an Air Safety magazine relatively recently that an airliner pilot on approach into Alice Springs encountered stall warning twice. That's one of the catalysts for Sen. Xenophon's current Senate inquiry into air safety. Another was sparked by a different crew in a Q400 approaching Mascot last year, which experienced a stick shaker warning and initiated a go-around, then had another stick-shaker warning on the second landing attempt and continued the approach regardless. (and the bodgied-up go-around procedures. and the microburst takeoff. and the near-miss north of Tullamarine... :) - mark I tried an internal modem,new...@atdot.dotat.org but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - image001.gif___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
At 12:56 PM 30/05/2011, you wrote: I know nothing about nothing which is probably apparent from my postings, but can someone tell me, do instruments like an artificial horizon give these pilots any indication of nose angle or angle of incidence? I was attempting to explain a stall like this to #2 wife and had difficulty understanding why they did not put the nose down or look at an instrument to tell them their AOA since they would have had some minutes to think about this during what appears to have been a tail down plunge. At least if the SOPs have changed, I can persuade her to get on another plane. D ___ Angle of incidence is an engineering term to denote the angle which the wing chord line (or tailplane chord line) meets the fuselage datum. The attitude indicator shows where the nose is pointed. In Head Up Displays this known as the waterline. It can be a W shape with wings each side. The velocity vector is the direction in which the aircraft is moving. On a HUD this is usually a little diamond shape. The velocity vector can also show sideslip. The angle of attack is the angle of the wing chord line to the relative wind. I don't know what the Airbus philosophy on the main attitude display is. Maybe Adam can enlighten us. I suspect AoA may be a number somewhere on the display. I hope at least that. I think I can see one scenario for the AF447 case. At 35degrees AoA the descent angle would be very steep and the attitude may even have been shown to be slightly nose down relative to the horizon. The crew may have been trying to pull the nose up but to no avail. Mike . Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
On 30/05/2011, at 6:51 PM, David Conway wrote: As Mark says stall angle is complicated but they manage to present a lot of it on the primary flight display alongside the airspeed strip: Yep, although on AF-744 the PFD would have been inoperative. (one of the alerts very early in the piece was an underspeed warning showing 65 kts) Airbus PFDs are driven by the air data computers. The flight data recorder indicates that all three air data computers tripped offline -- which would have removed the PFD's data feed, which would have rendered the entirety of both pilots' PFDs inoperative. They were flying blind, at Mach 0.8 at night in a thunderstorm with no instruments. The only real mystery is why it took five entire minutes for them to hit the water. - mark I tried an internal modem,new...@atdot.dotat.org but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] FW: Stalls
On 30/05/2011, at 6:34 PM, David Conway wrote: It seems like Qantas have it right... I wonder what they say about stick shakers in Q400's? - mark I tried an internal modem,new...@atdot.dotat.org but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
At 07:37 PM 30/05/2011, you wrote: Airbus PFDs are driven by the air data computers. The flight data recorder indicates that all three air data computers tripped offline -- which would have removed the PFD's data feed, which would have rendered the entirety of both pilots' PFDs inoperative. Any Airbus drivers care to tell us if this is correct? No backup attitude indication at all? Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
There is a backup system and separate display to the PFD's (ISIS) cid:image001.gif@01CC1EF9.2FFEA7D0 -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring- boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011 7:13 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls At 07:37 PM 30/05/2011, you wrote: Airbus PFDs are driven by the air data computers. The flight data recorder indicates that all three air data computers tripped offline - - which would have removed the PFD's data feed, which would have rendered the entirety of both pilots' PFDs inoperative. Any Airbus drivers care to tell us if this is correct? No backup attitude indication at all? Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring image001.gif___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
So when they are talking about recovering from stalls, they dont mean the cheap seats, its something those big things with the whatcha callits out the sides do. JR ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
Hi; Here is the release from BEA which may answer some questions (and raise others): http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol.af.447/point.enquete.af447.27mai2011.en.pdf On Mon, 30 May 2011, Mike Borgelt wrote: At 12:56 PM 30/05/2011, you wrote: I know nothing about nothing which is probably apparent from my postings, but can someone tell me, do instruments like an artificial horizon give these pilots any indication of nose angle or angle of incidence? I was attempting to explain a stall like this to #2 wife and had difficulty understanding why they did not put the nose down or look at an instrument to tell them their AOA since they would have had some minutes to think about this during what appears to have been a tail down plunge. At least if the SOPs have changed, I can persuade her to get on another plane. D ___ Angle of incidence is an engineering term to denote the angle which the wing chord line (or tailplane chord line) meets the fuselage datum. The attitude indicator shows where the nose is pointed. In Head Up Displays this known as the waterline. It can be a W shape with wings each side. The velocity vector is the direction in which the aircraft is moving. On a HUD this is usually a little diamond shape. The velocity vector can also show sideslip. The angle of attack is the angle of the wing chord line to the relative wind. I don't know what the Airbus philosophy on the main attitude display is. Maybe Adam can enlighten us. I suspect AoA may be a number somewhere on the display. I hope at least that. I think I can see one scenario for the AF447 case. At 35degrees AoA the descent angle would be very steep and the attitude may even have been shown to be slightly nose down relative to the horizon. The crew may have been trying to pull the nose up but to no avail. Mike Cheers -- Peter F Bradshaw: http://www.exadios.com (public keys avaliable there). Personal site: http://personal.exadios.com I love truth, and the way the government still uses it occasionally to keep us guessing. - Sam Kekovich. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
Hi; On Mon, 30 May 2011, Mark Newton wrote: On 30/05/2011, at 12:26 PM, DMcD wrote: I was attempting to explain a stall like this to #2 wife and had difficulty understanding why they did not put the nose down or look at an instrument to tell them their AOA since they would have had some minutes to think about this during what appears to have been a tail down plunge. They were at high altitude and flying heavy. Thus Vs and Vmo would have been rather close together. It isn't entirely unusual for an airliner at altitude to only have a 10 - 15 KIAS range between maximum speed and stall speed. Indications from the flight data recorder released so far are that something happened which made all of the flight computers trip offline at the same time (possibly all three pitot/static probes icing over at the same time - speculation) In very short order, that'd have disengaged the autopilot, placed the aircraft into alternate law (where overspeed and stalling protections are disabled), and killed almost all of the instruments. The screens would have been full of cautions and warnings from the tripped systems, and audible alarms would have been blaring through the cockpit. At high altitude, when Vs and Vmo are close together, and the autopilot/autothrottles are offline, virtually any disturbance in the outside air or applied to the sidestick would have either made the aircraft stall or overspeed. The aircraft was in a thunderstorm, so there's your disturbance in the outside air. No vertical speed indication, no altimeter, no horizon reference at night in a thunderstorm, no ASI. So probably no way of recovering from the stall. - mark I don't understand why they would not have had artificial horizon or vertical speed indicator. They certainly had an altimeter becase they called 10,000' as it went by. Cheers -- Peter F Bradshaw: http://www.exadios.com (public keys avaliable there). Personal site: http://personal.exadios.com I love truth, and the way the government still uses it occasionally to keep us guessing. - Sam Kekovich. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls - specifically AF 447
Quite a lot of further information (mixed in with varying amounts of falsehood) on this specific accident can be found here: http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/452836-af447-thread-no-3-a.html Filter as required - after a while you will work out which contributors know what they are talking about. CAUTION: You can while away quite a bit if time on this one, and your confidence in some aspects of some airline operations may suffer. Terry ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
At 07:55 PM 30/05/2011, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary==_NextPart_000_0096_01CC1EFF.5B554370 Content-Language: en-au There is a backup system and separate display to the PFD's (ISIS) So hopefully when the computers went off line the back up display worked from the gyros and accelerometers? With the quality of the gyros and accelerometers they would be using the attitude display at least ought to work usefully for some minutes at least, without air data inputs. Mike cid:image001.gif@01CC1EF9.2FFEA7D0 inline: 2d1dba7.gif Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
On 30/05/2011, at 8:18 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote: So hopefully when the computers went off line the back up display worked from the gyros and accelerometers? With the quality of the gyros and accelerometers they would be using the attitude display at least ought to work usefully for some minutes at least, without air data inputs. The ISIS is another electronic system, not a gyro-based steam-gauge system. It takes data from the third set of pitot/static probes. If they're iced over, then the ISIS doesn't work. - mark I tried an internal modem,new...@atdot.dotat.org but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls
At 08:58 PM 30/05/2011, you wrote: On 30/05/2011, at 8:18 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote: So hopefully when the computers went off line the back up display worked from the gyros and accelerometers? With the quality of the gyros and accelerometers they would be using the attitude display at least ought to work usefully for some minutes at least, without air data inputs. The ISIS is another electronic system, not a gyro-based steam-gauge system. It takes data from the third set of pitot/static probes. If they're iced over, then the ISIS doesn't work. Go back and look at David's diagram. See the box marked ISIS? See the little legends in it that say accelerometers, gyrometers? The gyros are probably solid state laser ring or fiber optic rate gyros, not mechanical ones. They may even be MEMS gyros but given the age of the design I doubt it. MEMS gyros are in things like the Dynon instruments etc found in Experimental homebuilts. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since 1978 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Get rid of the gliders
Another US stoush about sharing an airport. http://poststar.com/news/local/article_eed6e5ee-8ae9-11e0-9bc0-001cc4c03286.html Chris___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Backup instruments and human factors with electronic displays
Would be curious to know what the status of the standby pitots and statics were in the Air France flight (if such information is possible to ascertain from the data recorders). Assuming there was enough electricity to the standby unit, I guess the only useful standby instrument would've been the Artificial Horizon if the standby statics and pitots were malfunctioning (hence the backup altimeter and ASI would have also been in error). An alternate static source is not useful in a pressurised cockpit! Hopefully all will be revealed after the investigation. As an aside, interesting human factors exercise: I did my AFR recently in a Partenavia (P68C) with a SAGEM glass cockpit. First time I have flown with a glass cockpit, quite a culture shock. The standby instruments (Steam gauge ASI and Altimeter, electrically powered AH) were discretely at the top middle of the instrument panel. I had familiarised myself with the set-up on the ground in the week before and felt reasonably confident about dealing with it. The instructor told me that it was common for people to focus on the displays and not lookout, so I was prepared for that too. Nevertheless, early on in the flight, I found myself with head down in cockpit staring at the speed tapes and engine instruments with lookout suffering, much to my embarrassment. Certainly the novelty factor was very strong and should not be under estimated. From then on, I really had to focus the work cycle on keeping head out of cockpit with occasional glances at the pretty displays. The difficulty was that familiar information was presented in unfamiliar ways (for example in the steam gauge version the engine manifold pressure gauge is above the tachometer, whereas on the electronic PFD, the tachometer was the top gauge and the manifold pressure the bottom gauge. So I had to read in to tell me it was a manifold pressure gauge, and read RPM for the tacho). I also seemed to look at the standby instruments more often, because I was familiar with them and I could the required information at a glance. It made me think of the increasing instrumentation used in gliders and how that might distract pilots from looking out. I note that some pilots have a big sticker on the instrument panel that says LOOKOUT Certainly food for thought. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
