I do put a certain amount of thought into my responses although
at times I might lose patience,Khazeh: In other words however
lowly i am i wish to identify with the position of the martyred uncle of
the Bab and i would beg and beseech once again brother Gilberto to
consider the real
Hi, Gilberto,
At 01:43 PM 10/20/2005, you wrote:
What do you mean by spiritual validity. Is it about becoming a certain kind
of person? Reaching enlightenment? Salvation? Something else?
In this case, I meant whatever God might consider to be a valid construction of
reality. Although we
On 10/24/05, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[quoting from]
(Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 447)
Gilberto:
Ok. Ive read that.
Right now, it is just a claim. There is no evidence for it. There is no
compelling reason to believe it.
So I basically have to just leave it
On 10/24/05, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi, Gilberto,
At 01:43 PM 10/20/2005, you wrote:
What do you mean by spiritual validity. Is it about becoming a certain
kind of person? Reaching enlightenment? Salvation? Something else?
In this case, I meant whatever God might consider
On 10/24/05, Michael Alcorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear all,
I believe the following is pertinent to this thread:
If, in the Day when all the peoples of the earth will be gathered together,
any man should, whilst standing in the presence of God, be asked: Wherefore
hast thou disbelieved in
Gilberto,
At 05:49 AM 10/24/2005, you wrote:
Do you have an example in mind for how two contradictory narratives would
both be correct? I would be tempted to say that if they are both correct,
then the contradiction isn't real. And vice versa.
Yes.
1. There is a God (Semitic religions) ...
Do you think it is possible to understand a religious text without
believing in it?
Dear Gilberto,
Yes, it's possible. I became a Baha'i by reading and reading Baha'i books,
specially those revealed by the Central Figures of the Faith. I could
understand them well and that's why I decided to
Such orders are present in many Holy Books of God, including Qur'an, and
the
*context* in which such instructions were given usually warrant God's
reason
for order them.
|
|I agree. I wasn't refering to the cases of fire and brimstone
|raining down on folks from heaven or heavenly plagues. I was
This is precisely why Baha'u'llah has come - to remove those elements which
cause confusion.
- Original Message -
From: Max Jasper [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2005 8:06 PM
Subject: RE: Fwd: Interesting thread
Such orders
Sure. So we agree?!?
-Gilberto
On 10/24/05, Max Jasper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Excellent! You say that Qur'an's instruction to kill was killing of
non-believers who waged war against Muhammad or Muslims. That's the
context
I was referring to.
|Ordinary warfare where you make sure not
On 10/22/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
I think that in general matters of human life, the sanctitiy of human
life, are related to the essential fundamental principles.
So are you saying that it is an essential fundamental principle to kill
apostates?
No. In the
Good morning,
I haven't seen any evidence. I've seen Bahai attempts at explaining the Quran in a non-mainstream way, but that's all. The Bahai interpretations aren't particularly compelling to me.
Its interesting, because I have not been convinced that your way of looking at it is all that
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Good morning,
Good morning : )
Gilberto:
I haven't seen any evidence. I've seen Bahai attempts at explaining
the Quran in a non-mainstream way, but that's all. The Bahai
interpretations aren't particularly compelling to me.
Hajir:
Gilberto: I have spent a chunk of time in this forum and soc.religion.bahaitrying to better understand the Bahai faith.
Haj:
Tell me something I don't know. : )
Gilberto:I might just take you up on that. I"m curious though. Do you think itis possible to understand a religious text
Do you think it
is possible to understand a religious text without believing in it?
Dear Gilberto,
Sure. Especially if one is prepared to listen for the Word of God whether
one is certain it can be found there or not.
warmest, Susan
The information contained in this e-mail and any
On 10/23/05, Susan Maneck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
(question directed at Hajir)
Do you think it
is possible to understand a religious text without believing in it?
Dear Gilberto,
Sure. Especially if one is prepared to listen for the Word of God whether
one is certain it can be found there
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
Do you think it
is possible to understand a religious text without believing in it?
Haj:
Not sure if you have to believe in it, but you sure do have to see it
through its own paradigm. Let me know how I can help.
Would it
Haj: Your arguments against the Baha'i notion of P.R. don't make sense at all. You argue against something that's alien to me, as if you are arguing against someone else's belief, not mine. That's probably why we disagree.
Gilberto:Part of me mentioning the amount of time I've been in
Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you
need to see it through the Muslim paradigm?
You'd have to persuade me that there is a a single Muslim paradigm and
that this is the same paradigm as the Qur'an itself first.
The information contained in this e-mail and
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you
need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would be
wrong with viewing the Bahai writings through the Muslim paradigm?
Haj:
I think I would
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Haj:
Your arguments against the Baha'i notion of P.R. don't make sense at all.
You argue against something that's alien to me, as if you are arguing
against someone else's belief, not mine. That's probably why we disagree.
Gilberto:
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto: Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would be wrong with viewing the Bahai writings through the
Well, I'm not so sure that there is a Muslim paradigm as such: there is
a Wahhabi Sunni paradigm, there is a Si`ah paradigm, there is a
Sufi/mystical pradigm, a Hanbali Sunni paradigm, a Shafi`i paradigm, etc.,
etc. For example, my understanding is that for a very simple and
straightforward thing
Gilberto:
So do Bahais understand the Quran?Haj:
See Scott's response.
.
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On 10/23/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam wrote:
Gilberto:
Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you
need to see it through the Muslim paradigm? If not, what would be
wrong with
On 10/23/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well, I'm not so sure that there is a Muslim paradigm as such: there is
a Wahhabi Sunni paradigm, there is a Si`ah paradigm, there is a
Sufi/mystical pradigm, a Hanbali Sunni paradigm, a Shafi`i paradigm, etc.,
etc.
Yes and no. When
On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
But the things I've said about progressive revelation are actually
based on things I've read from the writings as well as things I've
heard from other Bahais.
Haj:
But they don't look familiar to me the way to characterize
Gilberto:So would you believe that in
order to understand the Bahai writings that you have to believe in them? And
again I would repeat, in order to understand the Quran, is it necessary to adopt
a Muslim paradigm?Scott:You asked Khazeh why if he loved
Muhammed he was not a Muslim, that is
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/23/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: On 10/23/05, Hajir Moghaddam wrote: Gilberto: Would it also be fair to say that to really understand the Quran you need to see it through the Muslim
Gilberto:
Ok. I heard you. So then I asked you to tell me specifically where I"mwrong. If you don't think I get it, what is it specifically that I'mnot seeing? Did I say something that wasn't true? Did I ommitsomething important? Something else? What?Haj:
Youoversimplify Baha'i principles.
On 10/23/05, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
without wishing to enter this arena of discussion again because its one
requirement seems to be instant and rapid response [and this servant] is
used to detailed analysis and reverence and thoughtful response__ without
wishing to
Even if they last for over a millenia before changing, moral values shouldn't just be a "fad". I'm sure there are ways that specific circumstances change. But we should be able to apply *some* kind of moral reasoning based on more fundamental principles.
Gilberto, I agree. For this
On 10/22/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
Even if they last for over a millenia before changing, moral values
shouldn't just be a fad. I'm sure there are ways that specific
circumstances change. But we should be able to apply *some* kind of moral
reasoning based on more
On 10/22/05, Max Jasper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
When God punishes man for his perversity, that is not called genocide.
genocide is done by man to man.
I agree. I wasn't refering to the cases of fire and brimstone raining
down on folks from heaven or heavenly plagues. I was talking about
those
Gilberto,
But there are parts of the shariah which I would include in that fundamental
essential aspect but which Bahais would not.
What is a fundamental essential aspect of the Islamic law that I as a Baha'i disagreed was essential? All religions teach:
1. pure and kind heartedness
2.
Hajir,
I think the following is pretty repetitive on my part.. I think there
is a core idea behind most of the responses which I'm trying to get
across and came up in different ways.
On 10/22/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
But there are parts of the shariah which I
Gilberto,
I'm surprised you haven't brought up the concept of abrogation 'naskh'and progressive revelation within the Qur'an itself. Why do you object to progressive revelation and abrogation by Baha'i Writings over the Qur'an, but hide the issues over abrogration and progressive revelation
I think that in general matters of human life, the sanctitiy of human life, are related to the essential fundamental principles.
So are you saying that it is an essential fundamental principle to kill apostates?
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I wouldn't want to impose my 21st century values, sensibilities, ethics,
standards, etc. upon God nor upon His Prophet Muhammad in the 7th
century. If the Prophet Muhmmad said it (and I have no compelling reason
that He didn't), then it was the Will of God for Him to make that
statement at
On 10/21/05, Iskandar Hai [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I wouldn't want to impose my 21st century values, sensibilities, ethics,
standards, etc. upon God nor upon His Prophet Muhammad in the 7th
century. If the Prophet Muhmmad said it (and I have no compelling reason
that He didn't), then it was
Gilberto,
At 09:59 PM 10/19/2005, you wrote:
I would say that Islam is true and other religions are not true (although
many contain alot of wisdom and truth). I think anyone who believes in
anything also disbelieves in the negations of that thing.
I don't necessarily.
Although the divine
Gilberto,
At 11:38 PM 10/19/2005, you wrote:
Which religion says all religions are true?
Many New Agers hold to that viewpoint, including Adi Da (born Franklin Jones),
the founder of the true world-religion of Adidam (formerly Free Daism), and
Ken Wilber. Adi Da is Wilber's former guru.
On 10/20/05, Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto,
At 09:59 PM 10/19/2005, you wrote:
I would say that Islam is true and other religions are not true (although
many contain alot of wisdom and truth). I think anyone who believes in
anything also disbelieves in the negations of
I don't have any particularly compelling reason to belive that the hadith
that the authoritative Bukhari cites is fake but I'd love to be see
compelling evidence that the Prophet Muhammad never said such a thing.
Regards,
Iskandar
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
On 10/19/05,
Iskandar and Hajir,
I really would appreciate a more responsive answer. Do you even
believe that it is within the realm of possiblity that Muhammad
(saaws) a Manifestation of God, the same God that you believe sent the
Bab and Bahaullah to usher in an era of world peace, do you believe
that it is
Gilberto,
At 07:42 AM 10/20/2005, you wrote:
I would say that if you can translate different perspectives into one
another in a way which reconciles them, then one doesn't really negate the
other. in the first place.
Wouldn't that need to assume some kind of omniscience? In other words, why
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/20/05, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto, At 07:42 AM 10/20/2005, you wrote: I would say that if you can "translate" different perspectives into one another in a way which reconciles them, then one doesn't really negate the
I certainly wish that Bukhari had not quoted it; but, I think that the
Prophet Muhammad said it. Again, I'd love to be see some compelling
evidence that the hadith is a fake and that He never said it. But, the
fact that I, now in the 21st century, wish that He had not said it is not
a compelling
Hi, Gilberto,
I'm not trying or intending to assume omniscience. It's all a work in
progress. It's all tentative. Suppose there are two people and one of
them says I believe in 6 gods while the other one says, I believe in 203
gods. It might turn out that the two of them can sit down
together
On 10/20/05, Mark Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What I am arguing for is contextualization. It is difficult enough comparing
narratives of the same religious category (different Baha'i faiths, Islams,
Buddhisms, etc.) Comparing narratives produced within different historical
and cultural
On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I certainly wish that Bukhari had not quoted it; but, I think that the
Prophet Muhammad said it. Again, I'd love to be see some compelling
evidence that the hadith is a fake and that He never said it. But, the
fact that I, now in the
On 10/20/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 10/20/05, Mark A. Foster wrote:
Gilberto,
At 07:42 AM 10/20/2005, you wrote:
I would say that if you can translate different perspectives into one
another in a way which reconciles them,
I certainly wish that Bukhari had not quoted it; but, I think that theProphet Muhammad said it. Again, I'd love to be see some compellingevidence that the hadith is a fake and that He never said it. But, thefact that I, now in the 21st century, wish that He had not said it is nota
I wouldn't want to read into that hadith things that are not obviously and
clearly in it. That would be distortion and misrepresentation. Unless, of
course, one can find another particular hadith that specifically,
explicitly, and clearly addresses this hadith and elaborates on it and
clarifies
On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I wouldn't want to read into that hadith things that are not obviously and
clearly in it. That would be distortion and misrepresentation.
Personally, I would want to avoid fundamentalism and a certain narrow
minded approach. For most
I'm very happy you said that, Gilberto: "So it would be clearly wrong to kill someone who had done nothing wrong."
The problem is, it is "wrong" for a Muslim to become a Baha'i. This is a greatest form of challenge for any religion that springs out of Islam, especially a religion that
On 10/20/05, Iskandar Hai, M.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Thanks for your attempts at clarifying the issue; but, with all due
respect, I'm not persuaded yet that the Bukhari hadith that Hajir
mentioned is fake. But I'd love to be able to belive what you say below.
I'm not trying to argue that
Gilberto:
I've said this before but the Bahai faith obviously sets up a hierarchy of different religions with the most recent religion (itself) on the top. And I think that is necessarily messed up.
Hajir:
Are you suggesting that Islam doesn't do that, while the Baha'i Faith does?
Gilberto:
So if you are married to the Bahai faith and think its the greatest religion in the world, that's your perception. But that doesn't mean that everyone else is going to see it the same way. And another person might be perfectly happy without being married to Bahai.
Hajir:
Are
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they havedisbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not fromamong them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but ifthey turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them,and take not from among
"Whosoever killed a person unless it be for killing a person or for creating disorder in the land it shall be as if he killed all mankind; and whoso saved a life, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind." (5:32)
"According to this verse of the Qur'an, if one human being is
On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
I've said this before but the Bahai faith obviously sets up a
hierarchy of different religions with the most recent religion
(itself) on the top. And I think that is necessarily messed up.
Hajir:
Are you suggesting that
On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
So if you are married to the Bahai faith and think its the greatest
religion in the world, that's your perception. But that doesn't mean
that everyone else is going to see it the same way. And another person
might be
On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have
disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from
among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if
they turn back, then seize them and
Given the context of the discussion, I would ask you to be honest and
explicit about what you are saying. What is the point you are trying
to make?
-Gilberto
On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Whosoever killed a person – unless it be for killing a person or for
creating
Gilberto: I don't think Islam sets up a hierarchy of religions according totime, no.
Hajir: Does Islam set up a hierarchy of religions at all?
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Gilberto:
No. The whole point of the analogy is to be non-hierarchical. If Johnis married to Jane, John will probably say that his wife is the mostbeautiful woman in the world. If Ahmed is married to Fatima, Ahmedwill also probably say that his wife is the most beautiful woman inthe world.
On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
No. The whole point of the analogy is to be non-hierarchical. If John
is married to Jane, John will probably say that his wife is the most
beautiful woman in the world. If Ahmed is married to Fatima, Ahmed
will also probably say
subjective... I meant subjective.
But I don't think I'm arguing over subjective qualities. I think if we are looking for Truth, we should be able to identify it by more concrete means.
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On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gilberto:
I'm not sure what is your point. There are other passages in the Quran
which talk about not being the aggressor in the first place. There is
no justification in the Quran for attacking peaceful, tax-paying
non-Muslims.
Hajir: Does Islam set up a hierarchy of religions at all? Gilberto: I wouldn't call it a hierarchy. Hajir: Do you mean that Islam is superior to the Baha'i Faith in this sense?Gilberto: I would say that Islam is true and other religions are not true(although many contain alot of wisdom
Hajir: What about the Hadith?
Gilberto: There is no justification in Islam for attacking peaceful, tax-payingnon-Muslims.
Hajir:
Please explain this Hadith to me:
"Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577:
I heard the Prophet saying, "In the last days (of the world) there will appear
Title: Message
I am
relatively sure he would claim this refers to Baha'is, and they must be killed
as the Prophet instructed.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to
On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hajir:
What about the Hadith?
Gilberto: There is no justification in Islam for attacking peaceful,
tax-paying
non-Muslims.
Hajir:
Please explain this Hadith to me:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577:
I heard the Prophet
On 10/19/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hajir: Does Islam set up a hierarchy of religions at all?
Gilberto: I wouldn't call it a hierarchy.
Hajir: Do you mean that Islam is superior to the Baha'i Faith in this
sense?
Gilberto: I would say that Islam is true and other
You have no basis for making such assumptions.
On 10/20/05, Max Jasper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am relatively sure he would claim this refers to Baha'is, and they must be
killed as the Prophet instructed.
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto
(e-mail) is
Is it appropriate and OK for a listmember to call Khazeh and his honest
and sincere remarks as dishonest and INCREDIBLY dishonest?
Iskandar
On Sun, 16 Oct 2005, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
-- Forwarded message --
From: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Oct 15, 2005 5:24
I was angry because of what he was saying about the Quran (in the
month of the Quran) and spoke out of that anger. I just think there is
a deep contradiction in saying that you love the Quran and respect it
as God's word but then on the other hand criticizing it as being out
of date and
-- Forwarded message --
From: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Oct 15, 2005 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: Interesting thread
To: Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dear Khazeh:
On 10/15/05, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am worried that we are again repeating
-- Forwarded message --
From: Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Oct 15, 2005 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: Interesting thread
To: Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On 10/15/05, Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote
This servant will continue if any one shows interest…
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