A last esthetic suggestion: let's mark the lower group and label with
1 the last move Black did in the ko:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L62m7i_IJX8FCB_8rIOwjYK3tR1GZZaq/view?usp=sharing
On 23 June 2018 at 00:19, Marcel Crasmaru wrote:
> Well all my reasoning was good but for the formula
Well all my reasoning was good but for the formula which is actually
F = z || (y && x) :-)
Mea culpa I didn't see that the ladder choices are reversed. I let
other people try showing that the group is alive in John's initial
problem (last move was B capture at x, the lower side
OK I think there is one thing to be done to make the solution longer:
1. mark the middle ko and then
2. problem should be: B just captured in the middle ko and W is to
move - is the group alive?
See here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1J5Xn4XkOqSsYx0AEBQJj6EL-SjNqNq-o/view?usp=sharing
Errata: assuming x is the top ko then the formula encoded by this problem is
z && (y || x)
with x = 1, y = 0, z = 0 and W cannot play at z. Thus W is already
dead you cannot make the formula true.
--Marcel
On 22 June 2018 at 22:19, Marcel Crasmaru wrote:
> The position looks OK is great - I
The position looks OK is great - I didn't find any side solutions.
Just one observation: I think this encodes x && y || y || z and W is
dead already thus is arguably a easier problem :)
Should make for a great wall poster.
On 22 June 2018 at 19:48, John Tromp wrote:
> at the bottom of my
at the bottom of my Go page http://tromp.github.io/go.html, which also
contains an sgf link.
Direct link to image: http://tromp.github.io/img/WO5lives.png
Enlarging the board to 29x29 allows for a much better final (I hope)
look, close to my first attempt.
-John
> The hunt for the simplest possible ko gadget continues...
Latest attempt at the usual place:
>>> at the bottom of my Go page http://tromp.github.io/go.html, which also
>>> contains an sgf link.
>>> Direct link to image: http://tromp.github.io/img/WO5lives.png
Unfortunately not as pretty as
> Hopefully fixed now.
Nope. Still no good. White can play O13, M11, or Q11 instead of recapturing ko.
The hunt for the simplest possible ko gadget continues...
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Hello,
I assume after white plays at U22, black T20, white T19, black should
have a choice of playing either at S21, capturing one white stone and
leading the ladder to the top ko, or at S20, leading the ladder to the
middle ko.
However, if black plays at S21, the sequence:
wS20 bT21 wR20 bS22
Hello,
I assume after white pla
2018-06-22 0:27 UTC+02:00, John Tromp :
Direct link to image: http://tromp.github.io/img/WO5lives.png
>
> Might be useful for go event organizers in need of arrow signs...
>
> regards,
> -John
> ___
> Computer-go
> I also think that what makes real go that hard is ko, but you've shown that
> it's
> equivalent to ladder, which frankly baffles me. I'd love to understand that.
Just different definitions of "hard"? Ko is still way harder (more
confusing, harder to discover a winning move when one exists)
On 21/06/18 18:45, Álvaro Begué wrote:
> I am here for the discussions about computer go,
> not gender politics.
Absolutely. Neither I am. I subscribed to ask help to finding a paper
about Go (the origin of this thread), that Marcel and Andreis kindly
helped me with, not to get misandrist
On 21/06/18 18:42, uurtamo wrote:
> Re: trolling
Apparently reminding people about the established meaning of words is
“““trolling””” these days.
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Did not intend to go to the whole group
On Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 5:01 PM uurtamo wrote:
> So deep down I think that first capture isn't that hard.
>
> I also think that what makes real go that hard is ko, but you've shown
> that it's equivalent to ladder, which frankly baffles me. I'd love to
>
So deep down I think that first capture isn't that hard.
I also think that what makes real go that hard is ko, but you've shown that
it's equivalent to ladder, which frankly baffles me. I'd love to understand
that.
You've done great combinatorics work and great small scale work.
What's your
Thanks for sharing your opinion.
- But I don't understand how it is related to the game of Go or computer
programs.
Maybe you accidentally emailed the wrong list?
Best regards,
Sighris
On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 4:37 PM Mario Xerxes Castelán Castro <
marioxcc...@yandex.com> wrote:
> “He” is
...or you could just not get your knickers in a twist over somebody's
pronoun selection. I am here for the discussions about computer go,
not gender politics.
On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 6:24 PM, Mario Xerxes Castelán Castro
wrote:
> “He” is the genetic singular pronoun in English. If anybody
Re: trolling
On Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 4:37 PM Mario Xerxes Castelán Castro <
marioxcc...@yandex.com> wrote:
> “He” is the genetic singular pronoun in English. If anybody feels
> excluded, is because he wants to feel excluded or is intentionally
> playing the ignorant card. What happen is that the
>>> Direct link to image: http://tromp.github.io/img/WO5lives.png
Might be useful for go event organizers in need of arrow signs...
regards,
-John
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“He” is the genetic singular pronoun in English. If anybody feels
excluded, is because he wants to feel excluded or is intentionally
playing the ignorant card. What happen is that the social justice
warrior-dominated United States is the source of many attempts to
redefine reality when it goes
>> I have attempted to reduce this y || (x && z) problem to the minimum
>> number of stones
>> at the bottom of my Go page http://tromp.github.io/go.html, which also
>> contains an sgf link.
>> Direct link to image: http://tromp.github.io/img/WO5lives.png
>
> Unfortunately, my ko gadgets don't
Without discouraging speech of any kind, I'd like to suggest that the prior
statement was of the form "axe to grind" or "mild trolling".
s.
On Thu, Jun 21, 2018, 1:45 PM Dan Schmidt wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 1:41 PM, Mario Xerxes Castelán Castro <
> marioxcc...@yandex.com> wrote:
>
>
On Thu, Jun 21st, Dan Schmidt wrote:
...
>
> Standards change...
>
Nothing to complex there...
> ... here is one starting point if you are interested in the topic, as you
> seem to be: https://www.apaonline.org/page/nonsexist (the American
> Philosophical Association's "Guidelines for
On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 1:41 PM, Mario Xerxes Castelán Castro <
marioxcc...@yandex.com> wrote:
Why the misandry? In English, “he” serves for both neutral and male
> gender, but “she” always excludes men.
>
Standards change. I could give examples of constructions that used to be
considered polite
On 21/06/18 11:51, John Tromp wrote:
> Unfortunately, my ko gadgets don't work properly.
> Black can connect 2 of her stones (eg. at P12) to break the ko for White.
> Back to the drawing board...
Why the misandry? In English, “he” serves for both neutral and male
gender, but “she” always excludes
> I have attempted to reduce this y || (x && z) problem to the minimum
> number of stones
> at the bottom of my Go page http://tromp.github.io/go.html, which also
> contains an sgf link.
> Direct link to image: http://tromp.github.io/img/WO5lives.png
Unfortunately, my ko gadgets don't work
> If we call the three kos x,y,z from top to bottom, then a succesfull
> White ladder amounts to
> (x || y) && (y || z). Which is equivalent to y || (x && z).
> So with y currently false, and White unable to flip it, White should
> take the bottom ko to make z true.
> Black can the make x false,
On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Marcel Crasmaru wrote:
> "what is the computational difficulty of Capture GO?" then as far as I know
> no one proved anything yet. Capture GO might be in P but to prove this
> doesn't look like an easy task. I personally think it is either
>
> (1) in P but very
Understood, and thanks. I didn't mean to throw the conversation sideways
too much.
Steve
On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 7:22 AM Marcel Crasmaru wrote:
> > _first capture_, no?
>
> I think there is some misunderstanding here as in this thread several
> problems are discussed in parallel.
>
> If by
> _first capture_, no?
I think there is some misunderstanding here as in this thread several
problems are discussed in parallel.
If by _first capture_ you mean to find an answer to the question "what
is the computational difficulty of Capture GO?" then as far as I know
no one proved anything
_first capture_, no?
s.
On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 6:59 PM Marcel Crasmaru wrote:
> I've eventually managed to create a problem that should show a full
> reduction from a Robson problem to Go - I hope is correct.
>
> The Problem:
>
> Black can the make x false, but that allows White to make y true, after which
> she can successfully escape in a ladder.
I think you are right and the solution is W takes at z, B is forced to
take at x, W is forced to take at y and no matter what B does next W
escapes from one of the ladders
On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 12:03 PM, Marcel Crasmaru wrote:
>> White can start one ladder as a ko threat to take back the middle ko, and
>> black will then take the top ko.
> I claim that White cannot use the ladders as a ko thread because:
> - if W plays R4 as a ko threat then B responds with S4
> White can start one ladder as a ko threat to take back the middle ko, and
> black will then take the top ko.
Thank you John for verifying the problem!
I claim that White cannot use the ladders as a ko thread because:
- if W plays R4 as a ko threat then B responds with S4
- if next W takes a
On Tue, Jun 19, 2018 at 3:52 AM, Marcel Crasmaru wrote:
> I've eventually managed to create a problem that should show a full
> reduction from a Robson problem to Go - I hope is correct.
>
> The Problem:
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tmClDIs-baXUqRC7fQ2iKzMRXoQuGmz2/view?usp=sharing
> Black
Hi Mario,
> I am interested in formalizing results about the game of Go as my next
> project. I have have a repository of computer-verified proofs here:
> https://puszcza.gnu.org.ua/projects/hol-proofs/
I am very interested in such a project; please let me know about your
progress! I don't know
I've eventually managed to create a problem that should show a full
reduction from a Robson problem to Go - I hope is correct.
The Problem:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tmClDIs-baXUqRC7fQ2iKzMRXoQuGmz2/view?usp=sharing
Black just captured in the marked ko. How should White play to save
the
My understanding: ko fights will take this to (at least, I haven't seen the
EXP argument) PSPACE.
no ko fights and no counting (i.e. first capture) could put this in P.
s.
On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 3:21 PM John Tromp wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 10:24 PM, Álvaro Begué
> wrote:
> > I don't
Considerations around captures and playing on previously occupied spots,
including Ko fights, are quite complex and they are indeed behind the
EXPTIME-hardness of Go (Robson's result).
On the other hand, there are meaningful strategic choices to be made even
in the ladders or first-capture go
On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 10:24 PM, Álvaro Begué wrote:
> I don't think ko fights have anything to do with this. John Tromp told
> me that ladders are PSPACE complete: https://tromp.github.io/lad.ps
Ko fights are needed to take Go problems beyond PSPACE.
For Japanese rules they suffice to go
On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 10:30 PM, Marcel Crasmaru wrote:
>> FWIW, first-capture go (i.e. winner is first one to make a capture) should
>> not be PSPACE-complete.
>
> Actually this is not obvious.
>
> If you are able to replace the White Choice gadget shown at page V in
> this paper:
Ko fights are the thing. Ladders are hard, but without ko fights I'm pretty
sure it's not even PSPACE-complete.
Steve
On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 1:52 PM Álvaro Begué wrote:
> I don't think ko fights have anything to do with this. John Tromp told
> me that ladders are PSPACE complete:
> FWIW, first-capture go (i.e. winner is first one to make a capture) should
> not be PSPACE-complete.
Actually this is not obvious.
If you are able to replace the White Choice gadget shown at page V in
this paper: https://tromp.github.io/lad.ps with an equivalent Go
gadget that doesn't capture
I don't think ko fights have anything to do with this. John Tromp told
me that ladders are PSPACE complete: https://tromp.github.io/lad.ps
Álvaro.
On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 2:58 PM, uurtamo wrote:
> FWIW, first-capture go (i.e. winner is first one to make a capture) should
> not be
You can also find here one of my attempts to create a difficult Robson
like problem on a Go board but I guess I've run into difficulties and
didn't finish it:
https://senseis.xmp.net/?Crasmarum%2FStrangeTsumego
However, it might help you understand how to convert Robson's problem
instances to
FWIW, first-capture go (i.e. winner is first one to make a capture) should
not be PSPACE-complete.
the thing in go that makes it hard is ko fights, which don't exist in
capture go.
s.
On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 11:55 AM Marcel Crasmaru
wrote:
> Errata: > reduction from GO to an EXP hard problem
Also - a downloadable link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tLCYr74UwVQsXAE2QrcwrGALIduH34b8/view?usp=sharing
--Marcel
On 18 June 2018 at 19:35, Andries E. Brouwer wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 11:54:51AM -0500, Mario Xerxes Castelán Castro wrote:
>> Hello. I am asking for help finding
Thanks you very much, Marcel. I will be reading your thesis. I am
interested in formalizing results about the game of Go as my next
project. I have have a repository of computer-verified proofs here:
https://puszcza.gnu.org.ua/projects/hol-proofs/ Right now I am still
finishing a formalization of
Errata: > reduction from GO to an EXP hard problem
should be the other way around :)
--Marcel
On 18 June 2018 at 19:36, Marcel Crasmaru wrote:
>> J. M. Robson (1983) “The Complexity of Go”. Proceedings of the IFIP
>> Congress 1983 p. 413-417.
>
> If you are interested in how to prove that
On Mon, Jun 18, 2018 at 11:54:51AM -0500, Mario Xerxes Castelán Castro wrote:
> Hello. I am asking for help finding the following paper:
>
> J. M. Robson (1983) “The Complexity of Go”. Proceedings of the IFIP
> Congress 1983 p. 413-417.
>
> I could not find it online. There is no DOI anywhere
Hello. I am asking for help finding the following paper:
J. M. Robson (1983) “The Complexity of Go”. Proceedings of the IFIP
Congress 1983 p. 413-417.
I could not find it online. There is no DOI anywhere to be found (I
searched Crossref and here:
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