Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

Nice On Mar 31, 2016 7:48 AM, "Álvaro Begué" wrote: > A very simple-minded way of trying to identify what a particular neuron in > the upper layers is doing is to find the 50 positions in the database that > make it produce the highest activation values. If the neuron is

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

On 31/03/2016, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de> wrote: > somehow he went into a > "strange loop", and in the end he was asked to stop posting. asked by the very person i was trying to help! That was the last straw. Ironically, whilst i was openly trying to help all montes, not just

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

A very simple-minded way of trying to identify what a particular neuron in the upper layers is doing is to find the 50 positions in the database that make it produce the highest activation values. If the neuron is in one of the convolutional layers, you get a full 19x19 image of activation values,

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

Then again DNNs also manage feature extraction on unlabeled data with increasing levels of abstraction towards upper layers. Perhaps one could apply such a specifically trained DNN to artificial board situations that emphasize specific concepts and examine the network's activation, trying to map

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

Ingo, That's precisely what has my knickers in a twist regarding djhbrown; his prior behavior. I'm with you in that I hope that he better manages his participation and uses list feedback to spend a little more time filtering what his "creativity" so it fits closer to the listening of this

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

Robert, This is exactly why I think the "explanation of the suggested moves" requires a much deeper baking into the participating ANN's (bottom up approach). And given what I have read thus far, I am still seeing the risk extraordinarily high and the payoff exceedingly low, outside an academic

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

Message: 3 Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 08:35:51 +0200 From: Robert Jasiek <jas...@snafu.de> To: computer-go@computer-go.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers Message-ID: <56fcc547@snafu.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed On 31.03.2016

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

Ingo Althöfer" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2016 4:31 AM To: computer-go@computer-go.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers Hello all, "Brian Sheppard" <sheppar...@aol.com> wrote: > ... This is out of line, IMO. Djhbrown asked a sensible ques

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

Hello all, "Brian Sheppard" wrote: > ... This is out of line, IMO. Djhbrown asked a sensible question that has > valuable intentions. I would like to see responsible, thoughtful, and > constructive replies. there is a natural explanation why some people here react allergic

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

On 31.03.2016 03:52, Bill Whig wrote: If the program would merely output 3-5 suggested positions, that would probably suffice. Even an advanced beginner, such as myself, could I believe, understand why they are good choices. Just having the "short list" would probably be quite an educational

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

"Similar to Neuro-Science, where reverse engineering methods like fMRI reveal structure in brain activity, we demonstrated how to describe the agent’s policy with simple logic rules by processing the network’s neural activity. This is important since often humans can understand the optimal policy

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

this is also interesting, to visualize "how the NN thinks" http://blog.acolyer.org/2016/03/02/graying-the-black-box-understanding-dqns/ On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 10:38 PM, Ben wrote: > It would be very interesting to see what these go playing neural networks > dream

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

rom:* Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] *On > Behalf Of *uurtamo . > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 30, 2016 7:43 PM > *To:* computer-go <computer-go@computer-go.org> > *Subject:* Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers > > > > He cann

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

If the program would merely output 3-5 suggested positions, that would probably suffice. Even an advanced beginner, such as myself, could I believe, understand why they are good choices. Just having the "short list" would probably be quite an educational tool! It would probably even help

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

To: computer-go <computer-go@computer-go.org> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers He cannot possibly write code On Mar 30, 2016 4:38 PM, "Jim O'Flaherty" <jim.oflaherty...@gmail.com <mailto:jim.oflaherty...@gmail.com> > wrote: I don't think djh

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

He cannot possibly write code On Mar 30, 2016 4:38 PM, "Jim O'Flaherty" wrote: > I don't think djhbrown is a software engineer. And he seems to have the > most fits. :) > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 6:37 PM, uurtamo . wrote: > >> This is clearly the

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

I don't think djhbrown is a software engineer. And he seems to have the most fits. :) On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 6:37 PM, uurtamo . wrote: > This is clearly the alphago final laugh; make an email list responder to > send programmers into fits. > > s. > On Mar 30, 2016 4:16 PM,

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

This is clearly the alphago final laugh; make an email list responder to send programmers into fits. s. On Mar 30, 2016 4:16 PM, "djhbrown ." wrote: > thank you very much Ben for sharing the inception work, which may well > open the door to a new avenue of AI research. i am

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

thank you very much Ben for sharing the inception work, which may well open the door to a new avenue of AI research. i am particularly impressed by one pithy statement the authors make: "We must go deeper: Iterations" i remember as an undergrad being impressed by the expressive power of

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

ing into DTs is advisable. > > > > Best, > > Brian > > > > > > *From:* Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] *On > Behalf Of *Jim O'Flaherty > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 30, 2016 4:24 PM > *To:* computer-go@computer-go.org > *Subject

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

, then looking into DTs is advisable. Best, Brian From: Computer-go [mailto:computer-go-boun...@computer-go.org] On Behalf Of Jim O'Flaherty Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2016 4:24 PM To: computer-go@computer-go.org Subject: Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers I agree, "c

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

It would be very interesting to see what these go playing neural networks dream about [1]. Admittedly it does not explain any specific moves the AI does - but it might show some interesting patterns that are encoded in the NN and might even give some insight into "how the NN thinks". Put

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

I agree, "cannot" is too strong. But, values close enough to "extremely difficult as to be unlikely" is why I used it. On Mar 30, 2016 11:12 AM, "Robert Jasiek" wrote: > On 30.03.2016 16:58, Jim O'Flaherty wrote: > >> My own study says that we cannot top down include "English

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

On 30 Mar 2016, at 03:04, djhbrown . wrote: > > as to preconceived notions, my own notions are postconceived, having > studied artificial intelligence and biological computation over 40 > post-doctoral years during which i have published 50 or so > peer-reviewed scientific

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

djhbrown, Even from a pure playing stronger perspective, it is not game over yet because there is no guarantee yet for always avoiding sudden entering of holes of bad play, verification by reading is missing and there is no optimisation for better score when winning the game anyway. For other

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

On 30.03.2016 16:58, Jim O'Flaherty wrote: My own study says that we cannot top down include "English explanations" of how the ANNs (Artificial Neural Networks, of which DCNN is just one type) arrive a conclusions. "cannot" is a strong word. I would use it only if it were proven

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

My own study says that we cannot top down include "English explanations" of how the ANNs (Artificial Neural Networks, of which DCNN is just one type) arrive a conclusions. If you want to translate the computational value of an ANN into something other than the essential operation that it is

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

I fully agree with Goncalo that it would be worth investigating how one could write an algorithm to express in English what Alpha's or DCNNigo's nets have learned, and a month ago (before her astonishing achievement in March) offerred some ideas on how this might be approached in a youtube comment

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

Come on let's all calm down please. :) David I think the great challenge is in having good insight with AlphaGo strength. Many Faces already provides some textual move suggestions, as do probably other programs. Any program that doesn't use exclusively machine learning or global search, like GNU

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

> no lack of respect for DeepMind's achievement was contained in my > posting; on the contrary, i was as surprised as anyone at how well she > did and it gave me great pause for thought. > Well, you wrote this: > but convolutional neural networks and monte-carlo simulators have not > advanced

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

one has to expect a certain amount of abuse when going public, and to expect that eager critics will misrepresent what was said. no lack of respect for DeepMind's achievement was contained in my posting; on the contrary, i was as surprised as anyone at how well she did and it gave me great pause

Re: [Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

Your lack of respect for task performance is misguided imo. Your preconceived notions of what intelligence is, will lead you astray. ___ Computer-go mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go

[Computer-go] new challenge for Go programmers

now that alpha rules the world, the usual suspects throng of plagiarising copyycat psychopath serial killers are already busy cloning her, but there is a faint chance that there may also be some subscribers to this list who would like to contribute/investigate something to/in AI by way of