Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Fwd: LO breeze design

[kainz.a]

Hi Heiko,

the open source comunnity is smaller than expacted.

I will see if I can join the hangout on Wednesday can you send me an
invite. I will prepare some screenshots.

Cheers,
Andreas

2015-03-09 15:06 GMT+01:00 Heiko Tietze heiko.tie...@user-prompt.com:

 Hi Andreas,

 LO design team has a weekly hangout meeting on Wednesday 6pm (UTC, 19:00
 MEZ). You can also talk to me (not necessarily about design) and Jay has
 always an open ear.

 Cheers,
 Heiko.

 On Mon, Mar 09, 2015 at 10:43:07AM +0100, kainz.a wrote:
 
  1. Who is response to the icon sets in LO (where can I get some feedback)



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[libreoffice-design] Re: LibreOffice 5.0 branding contest results

[kainz.a]

thanks you all.

will be a great release

Andreas
Am 10.07.2015 12:15 schrieb Jan Holesovsky ke...@collabora.com:

 Hi guys,

 Thank you so much for participating in the LibreOffice 5.0 branding
 contest!

   https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/5.0_Branding

 Deciding there was hard, all the ideas were good, but in the end, the
 branding for 5.0 uses concepts from Andreas and Jun.  As promised,
 you'll get a T-shirt :-) - please send me your size and address
 privately.

 The designs are not used verbatim though, they were combined and
 extended by a designer hired to do that after a discussion between the
 Board, Design and Marketing representatives.

 The new branding will be available in the RC3, and there might be slight
 changes to the further RC's based on the feedback.

 Thank you all, and hope you'll participate in the next contests again!

 All the best,
 Kendy



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Re: [libreoffice-design] "eat our own dog food"

[kainz.a]

you have right, I use kde and do design stuff for kde, BUT I use plasma 5.2
from Kubuntu 15.04 (cause there is an BUG in Dolphin at Kubuntu 15.10) and
make design stuff for plasma 5.5. It is a BIG problem that Plasma and KDE
don't offer CI like you have it in LibreOffice. When I don something in LO
I can push it to master and one day later I can install the daily build.

As always the right desicion is somewhere between only use LO and use
google docs or an specific propritory app.

When you link to calligra. The starting point about this mail was that I
start with breeze calligra icons and they want to find also other people to
join. In the end it is everywhere a small group how participate.

but would be cool to add some stuff that is usefull for our work into LO.

cu
Andreas Kainz

2015-12-04 10:38 GMT+01:00 Michel RENON :

> Hi,
>
> Le 04/12/2015 02:03, Heiko Tietze a écrit :
>
>> On Friday 04 December 2015 00:32:29 Michel RENON wrote:
>>
>>> So why not create mockups with LO Draw ?
>>>
>> Nothing against dog food, and of course Draw is a useful tool. But to
>> adopt a
>> paintting tool for mockups is like writing code with a text processor. My
>> scribbles are done with Balsamiq Mockups, which is a specialized tool.
>> You may
>> read [1] on how to use it. There are some similar applications with
>> different
>> features and other use cases. But no true usability engineer would apply
>> Inkscape for that purpose. It's the same for KDE: only designers do work
>> with
>> Krita or Inkscape (BTW: there is a complete kit for desktop applications
>> [2]).
>> So what is expected from a mockup tool:
>> * interactivity (on click either another page should open or the controls
>> have
>> to work as usual),
>>
>
> Today, the mockups are pasted in a gdoc, in pdf or in a wiki page.
> So interactivity is not used at all.
>
> If you really need interactivity, why not use Impress ?
> Just like Draw, it would be the opportunity to see if it's really a
> powerful tool.
> (Few years ago, I read a blog about using Powerpoint to create interactive
> mockups)
>
> * collaborativity (drafts need to get shared easily),
>>
>
> well, I think that using a std format (svg or odf) is better that a live
> tool based on a proprietary format
>
> * comprehensive set of control (you don't want to draw buttons every time,
>> and
>> those controls should be easy interchangable),
>>
>
> that's where LO would need huge enhancement !
> the current gallery would be a rough start, but it would be possible.
> Then it would be the opportunity to request enhancements to
> Draw/gallery/impress
>
>
> * look and feel like scribbles (pixel-perfect design is misleading),
>>
>
> 'scribbles like' is not mandatory, it's just a way to avoid drawing too
> much details.
> We can have same results with std drawing objects (std rectangle...)
>
> An example from OpenOffice :
>
> https://wiki.openoffice.org/w/images/9/94/2010-01-17_PrintingDialog_inclStringReview.png
>
> and one I made in few minutes, more than 2 years ago :
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/images/6/69/Template_manager_mre_v1.jpg
>
> Both are far from pixel-perfect, while being done with Draw.
>
> * support for layout (arrangement, placement etc.)
>>
>
> Again, this would be an opportunity to enhance Draw/Impress based on real
> usage needs.
> First one : live guide to align objects while dragging
>
>
> IMHO it makes no sense to enhance Draw for this purpose.
>>
>
> I agree it would remove some comfort, but at the end, we could also tell
> people "hey, we use Draw/Impress every day in the design team and look what
> we create ! So now, you can't say anymore that they are not powerful
> enough", and we would be trusty.
>
>
> From what I heard about OpenOffice/LibreOffice :
> - Writer is powerful, but looks outdated compared to Word
> - Calc is clearly behind Excel (tools, ease of use, UI), while being a
> serious software
> - Impress is non-existant compared to Powerpoint : buggy, unusable,
> completely outdated, few and uggly clipart, few and uggly templates
> - Draw : mixed reviews :
> - so we can draw with LibreOffice ???
> - seems powerful but not easy to discover/use
>
> My personal experience with Impress :
> I had to create a simple slideshow : slides with only text with bullets,
> no animations. It was difficult because a list of very annoying details. So
> I clearly say to other people "don't use Impress".
>
> So using LO internally would be a first step to enhance it.
> The more we find it difficult, the more we have to enhance it !
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michel
>
>
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[libreoffice-design] wrong icon size in Impress

[kainz.a]

Hi,

I'm not very happy with the new drop down menu in Impress for the Edit Mode
selection cause the icons are 68x54 px in size.

my problem is:

1. toolbar icons are 16px, 24px and in future 32px and for this drop down
button you scale the large 68x54px icons to the toolbar size (you can't
read the 68x54px icon at 16px scale size.

2. why LO don't use standard icon sizes like 8x8, 16x16, 22x22, 24x24,
32x32, 48x48, 64x64, 128x128

I would prefere to move the icons

from
   sd/res/displaymode_*
to
   cmd/sc_displaymode_*
   cmd/lc_displaymode_*
   cmd/32/displaymode_*

in the toolbar use the 16px (sc_displaymode_*) or 24px (lc_displaymode_*)
icon and in the drop down menu maybe the cmd/32/displaymode_* icons or the
same than in the toolbar.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Fwd: New Interface suggestion

[kainz.a]

as the focus and the unique element in LO is on the sidebar I would prefere
to add an open dokument previewer in the sidebar for all open dokument
types.

2015-12-11 12:22 GMT+01:00 Douglas Vigliazzi :

> Hi all,
> I was thinking how to improve LibreOffice interface and how to give an
> interface more clean and new, this way, can be improved productivity.
>
> https://oc.ieamar.unesp.br/owncloud/index.php/s/np8desaK9BJEWc2
>
> Best regards
>
> --
> Douglas Vigliazzi
> Linux user # 511083 / Ubuntu User # 35359
> The Document Foundation Member
> Brazilian LibreOffice Community
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Fwd: New Interface suggestion

[kainz.a]

can we add this tabs right to the menu bar cause in widescreen monitors (I
think large widescreen monitors are our target display) there is a lot of
space.

Andreas

2015-12-11 13:31 GMT+01:00 Douglas Vigliazzi <dougviglia...@gmail.com>:

> it's interesting, but, if we try to use tabs, like a web browsers to
> navigate by open documents in a single interface to access them, instead to
> change or navigate by many different windows.
>
> 2015-12-11 9:52 GMT-02:00 kainz.a <kain...@gmail.com>:
>
>> as the focus and the unique element in LO is on the sidebar I would
>> prefere to add an open dokument previewer in the sidebar for all open
>> dokument types.
>>
>> 2015-12-11 12:22 GMT+01:00 Douglas Vigliazzi <dougviglia...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>> I was thinking how to improve LibreOffice interface and how to give an
>>> interface more clean and new, this way, can be improved productivity.
>>>
>>> https://oc.ieamar.unesp.br/owncloud/index.php/s/np8desaK9BJEWc2
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>>
>>> --
>>> Douglas Vigliazzi
>>> Linux user # 511083 / Ubuntu User # 35359
>>> The Document Foundation Member
>>> Brazilian LibreOffice Community
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Douglas Vigliazzi
> Linux user # 511083 / Ubuntu User # 35359
> The Document Foundation Member
> Brazilian LibreOffice Community
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice 5.1 Announcement

[kainz.a]

Dark theme support and 32px icon set? I think it is in 5.1. maybe the 32px
icons are only for HIDPI, I'm not sure.

Cheers
Andreas K

2016-01-18 8:25 GMT+01:00 Charles-H. Schulz <
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org>:

> Hello Italo,
>
> I agree with your idea on the landing page. But we need 5 top features.
> :-) any suggestions? I will write mine.
>
> Best,
>
> Charles
>
> Le 18 janvier 2016 02:12:13 GMT+01:00, Italo Vignoli <
> it...@libreoffice.org> a écrit :
> >We must start thinking about a LibreOffice 5.1 landing page (a solution
> >could be to re-use LibreOffice 5.0 landing page, as the "five" motif is
> >still a good one, and we do not need a brand new one for each release)
> >and a LibreOffice 5.1 release page highlighting the top features.
> >
> >My list for the top 3 features is:
> >
> >1. New menus and toolbars for a better user interface
> >2. An improved Calc engine for interoperability and compatibility
> >3. OOXML interoperability has made another giant step forward
> >
> >Looking forward to other suggestions and comments.
> >
> >--
> >Italo Vignoli - Libreoffice Marketing & PR
> >mobile +39.348.5653829 - email / jabber it...@libreoffice.org
> >hangout / jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli
> >GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0
> >DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0
> >
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Some Ideation on LibreOffice Logo Improvements

[kainz.a]

Heiko, same as I thought

thanks for your awesome work Christoph

Cheers
Andreas

2016-01-23 23:45 GMT+01:00 Heiko Tietze :

> On Saturday, 23 January 2016 23:02:34 CET Christoph Noack wrote:
> > What are your initial thoughts, pros, cons, or ideas? I would really
> > appreciate your feedback - and your questions. And, if needed, I'll set
> > up a dedicated whiteboard for that topic ...?Thanks!
>
> The logo is perfect, especially in monochrome with the enlarged character
> spacing for the TDF letters.
> I'm not a fan of the bright green (the old branding color was nicer) in
> particular combined with the white font. And the lemons could be
> attributed as
> sour rather than fresh.  However, I'm not a designer, so don't care too
> much.
> From the UX POV the colored text in IconsInclMotif are questionable. In
> particular the yellow is hard to read. And the green of the logo interferes
> with Calc's green.
> The wallpaper feels a little bit untidy and irritating. To me, the dog-ear
> triangle from the logo without the page doesn't work. Last but not least
> the
> bugs have a friendly but warning color, very nice. Maybe you can make the
> bugs
> a little bit cuter, laydbugs perhaps? :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Heiko

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Proposal: Usability testing LibreOffice in a university course

[kainz.a]

Hi Christoph,

this would be really great. I'm not that involved in the usability stuff
but I do/did the breeze icon theme and I live in Vienna too.

In the past I don't get that much feedback about the icon semantic there
was a Usability Test from 2014 (
http://user-prompt.com/de/intermediate-results-of-the-icon-tests-breeze/)
about the semantic and there the feedback was that some icons need some
redesign. As breeze is used on Mac and Linux I would be very happy to get
some feedback.

cheers
Andreas

2016-03-24 12:23 GMT+01:00 Christoph Wimmer <
christoph.wim...@inso.tuwien.ac.at>:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I am a member of DECO research group at Vienna University of Technology (
> http://deco.inso.tuwien.ac.at) and we are teaching a course on usability
> engineering with around 60 students this summer term. For a lab assignment,
> the students will both plan and conduct usability tests for existing
> applications. We would like to let our students evaluate the current
> version of LibreOffice and were wondering if you would be interested in the
> results or maybe even closer collaboration.
> We believe this could be beneficial to everyone involved: The LibreOffice
> UX team could benefit from the results of the usability tests and our
> students would know that their work serves a real purpose by having a
> positive impact on a project with millions of users.
>
> Please let us know how you feel about this and how we could coordinate.
> For example, it would be great if you could let us know if there are any
> specific parts of LibreOffice that you think would benefit the most from
> usability testing.
>
> Thank you and best regards,
> Christoph Wimmer
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Home for the breeze icon theme

[kainz.a]

Hi,

about the HiDPI support what's happen with it? I already add 32px icons but
you can't use them in any LO version.

2016-08-01 13:14 GMT+02:00 Yousuf 'Jay' Philips :

> Hi Pedro,
>
> There is a bug report requesting the same thing (tdf#90194) and its
> possible that Breeze fits well for windows 10 theme, but there are more
> users on other versions of windows than windows 10, so i wouldnt be in
> favour of it.
>
> http://gs.statcounter.com/#desktop-os-ww-monthly-201506-201606
>
> Looking back, i think it was a mistake to move to Breeze on MacOS,
> especially just after moving to Sifr by default in the previous version
> after a survey confirmed that half of Mac users were switching to it. Some
> of the problems I see with Breeze on Mac is that it blends badly with the
> gradient background of the toolbar, though users who get LO from the
> appstore dont have this problem as the toolbar is has a white background.
>
> https://youtu.be/lBWjBRPFdz0?t=31s
>
>
> http://a4.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Purple7/v4/b1/85/37/b1853762-fa00-72e4-f672-f2d12117211d/screen800x500.jpeg
>
> Another problem is that Macs are primarily HiDPI and we dont have SVG
> icons support in yet.
>
> Yousuf
>
>
> On 08/01/2016 01:03 PM, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
>
>> This may be a bit off-topic, but couldn't the Breeze theme become the
>> default theme in Windows 10?
>> It fits a lot better with the design language of W10 than Tango (as KDE
>> usually fits better with Windows than Gnome). And Breeze is already the
>> default on MacOS...
>>
>>

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[libreoffice-design] Re: Home for the breeze icon theme

[kainz.a]

Hi,

For your information uri inform me before he closed the repository and the
kde stuff on github wasn't up to date.

But yes in general the png files isn't useful for new contributions and the
origin file is the important stuff. You wouldn't save exe files. The cpp
files are the needed.

Thanks for upload the files.
Andreas kainz

Am 31.07.2016 15:09 schrieb "Yousuf 'Jay' Philips" :

> Hi all,
>
> Andreas informed me that the github repo that was hosting LO's breeze icon
> theme, as well as all the breeze icons for kde, has been removed and he
> asked where can the breeze svgs be hosted. I've uploaded the SVGs to the
> core repo under /icon-themes/breeze/svg/.
>
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/27750
>
> This incident has gotten me thinking of how secure are we with our sifr
> and tango icon themes on github.
>
> https://github.com/libodesign/icons
>
> Yousuf
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Home for the breeze icon theme

[kainz.a]

KDE implement something like a look and feel package. the idea is that you
don't have to select I'd like to use this icons with that color scheme and
this widget layout.

So maybe you can have in the dialogue a preview of different layouts.
simple tollbar with tango icons e.g. for xp users, toolbar + sidebar with
breeze icons and dark theme, ... you can change everything in the settings
dialogue but in the start selection you say I'd like to have this.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Design Suggestions - Take 2

[kainz.a]

Hi Thibaut,

it's really awesome that you'd like to work on an advanced user interface
cause there you will see the big issues with the grouped concept better
(space problem) so please go for it. I'll hope you will find a usefull
solution for the space issue.

good luck
Andreas

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Weekly design/UX meeting on Feb/22

[kainz.a]

2017-02-22 22:20 GMT+01:00 Heiko Tietze :

> Hello everyone,
>
> some topics for tomorrow, feel free to submit more
>
> Organization
>
>  * Notebookbar procedure
>+ What/When do we accept additionally NBs in master?
>+ How to accept improvements to existing NBs?
>+ Make a plan on what we want to provide as factory settings
>

+ how can we guaranty that the Notebookbar look good for all icon themes
(32px icon size and new icons needed). I will work on breeze to make it
possible.
+ Alignment should be fixed also some tabs have the same actions twice. In
addition there is enough space for lc_ (24px) icons but sc_ (16px) icons
were used. In the toolbar the lc_ 24px icons are default
+ tabs look so ugly in Windows 7 (could this be fixed somehow?)
+ bugfixing is needed
- how can the icon size can be defined for drop down actions (now only sc_
(16px) icons were used) e.g. color icons
  https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1642456/LibreOffice/Sizing.png
- for drop down icons labels aren't possible for now
- shrink (and expand) toolbar depend on the windows wide

that's are the biggest issues from my review.

cheers
Andreas_K

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[libreoffice-design] context container

[kainz.a]

Dear LibreOffice Team,

I'd like to know which context container are available (for Writer) as fare
as I know there is

   - context-Text
   - context-Table
   - context-Graphic
   - context-Draw

But I think there are more context container the following containers I need

   - context-print
   (when you open the print preview)
   - context-TextObject
   (when you write a Text into an Shape or when you insert an Text Box)
   - In the end I need an context-container for all
   /swriter/toolbar/xxxobjectbar.xml files

I know context-print and context-TextObject didn't work so how they are
called or did I have to declare them somewhere in the code.

Thanks
Andreas_K

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Re: [libreoffice-design] missing icons(name)

[kainz.a]

thanks a lot

that help me

2017-02-16 17:36 GMT+01:00 Regina Henschel <rb.hensc...@t-online.de>:

> Hi Andreas,
>
> kainz.a schrieb:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I need icon names how can I find out the icon name of an function
>> e.g. uno:PasteUnformatted I know it didn't had an icon but when I know how
>> the icon is called I'll add one (in breeze).
>>
>
> If you do not compile LibreOffice yourself, but only want to add an icon
> via the customize dialog, then the name does not matter.
>
> In case you want to compile LibreOffice yourself, you find all needed
> information in the README of the 'icon-themes' folder.
>
> Short answer: All command characters to lower characters and prefix with
> lc_ for large icons and sc_ for small icons. In your example you get
> lc_pasteunformatted.png and sc_pasteunformatted.png
>
> Kind regards
> Regina
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes of the Design Hangout: 2017-Jan-12

[kainz.a]

Hi

2017-01-12 14:03 GMT+01:00 Heiko Tietze :

> Present: Jay, Tomazs, Kendy, Steve, Heiko
>
> Tickets
>
>  * Make Breeze the default icon set on Windows
>+ https://pirati.ca/display/a6551d712873888e843e54a74a8e772a61684afd
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90194
>+ https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/H6W86P19atW
>  + 60% Yes after one day
>+ Yes (Tomazs)
>+ No, because Breeze is not enough colorful and too thin (Jay, Kendy,
> Heiko)
>/keep it for now
>

In Win 7 tango fit's well. I don't know how it will fit in Win 10.
I can't change the breeze icon geometry, but as everything is svg,
color changing wouldn't be a problem to fit windows better.


>  * Installer icon
>(last week)
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=103677
>  https://bug-attachments.documentfoundation.org/
> attachment.cgi?id=128467
>+ Double-check if ico contains multiple images (Jay)
>+ Tango is not really up-to-date and not suitable for Windows (Jay)
>+ See what other installers use (Jay)
>+ Revert change like Stuart mentioned (Jay)
>+ Let's check other installers and decide next week what to do (Heiko)
>(this week)
>+ Andreas' solution is good (Kendy)
>+ leave it as it is as the default is very close to what we have (Jay)
>/ Make a test first with a nightly build that contains Andreas'
> solution (Kendy)
>

I used tango icons for the installer, cause the installer is for windows
and tango is the default icon set, so the default design language for
windows.

I can also make a proposal for another design language (breeze, galaxy,
sifr, ...)
but I wouldn't prefer to have an installer icon that fit's any LO design
language.
So say what you want and I will have a look if I can make it happen.

cheers
Andreas K

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Fwd: About UI/UX & LibreOffice

[kainz.a]

I like sidebar to, also now you have a mix which isnt good (dialogues)

But what happens if the user select laptop layout or only toolbar?

Cheers
Andreas

Am 09.01.2017 10:22 Vorm. schrieb "Stefan Weiberg" <
stefan.weib...@germandev.org>:

> Hi *,
>
> looks good to me. I generally prefer sidebars over menubars as displays
> tend to get wider in their resolution. Vertical space is precious.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Stefan
>
> On Sun, 2017-01-08 at 22:09 +0100, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > someone send me a proposal how the sidebar could be improved. I tried
> > to convince him from our awesome mailing list *g*, but he didn't want
> > to join for now. So here is the link to the mockup: http://budislavtv
> > p.deviantart.com/art/LibreOffice-SINGLE-WINDOW-Sidepanel-Concept-
> > 656226009?ga_submit_new=10%253A1483903742
> >
> > What's your impression?
> >
> > All the best,
> > Heiko
> >
> >  Forwarded Message 
> > Subject: Re: About UI/UX & LibreOffice
> > Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2017 19:39:23 +
> > From: Budislav Stepanov 
> > To: Heiko Tietze 
> >
> > > ...
> >
> > I am glad you like something :) I tried with those mailing lists long
> > time
> > ago and I know how it works. In the best case they would ask you for
> > opinion that is why I ask you directly so I know my answer. To
> > convince all
> > of them I would need time for one more life so this was only a nice
> > try, I
> > think I will stop here.
> >
> >
> >
> > If you want I set this on deviantart >
> > http://budislavtvp.deviantart.com/art/LibreOffice-SINGLE-WINDOW-Sidep
> > anel-Concept-656226009?ga_submit_new=10%253A1483903742
> > so you can ask users for opinion.
> >
> >
>
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[libreoffice-design] LO needed icons for 5.3

[kainz.a]

Dear LO Team,

please post somewhere which icons do you need for the 5.3 release (I didn't
know the time shadule, if it's not to late).

It would be very helpful if you have a wiki page where you add the list
with new icons in the next release cause I'd like to update the breeze icon
set, but without the icon names it's not easy.

I'll tested the experimental notebook bar and there are some icons missing
in breeze but also in (all) other icon sets, so the list would be useful
not only for me.

cheers
Andreas_K

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[libreoffice-design] Re: LO needed icons for 5.3

[kainz.a]

but there are some missing icons for the netbook toolbar (in ALL icon
sets), can I have the icon names for this missing ones.

cheers
Andreas

2016-12-22 13:37 GMT+01:00 Yousuf Philips <ypha...@gmail.com>:

> Hi Andreas,
>
> Not many icons were changed/added for 5.3, but anything that i've noticed
> went into the breeze work google doc.
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dpMFgmkQy4BsyRIKH97ZLPTU
> 6NdvXIYk3Yossj6sSQM/edit#
>
> If anyone else find missing icons in the breeze icon theme, please do let
> us know.
>
> Yousuf
>
>
> On 12/20/2016 03:32 AM, kainz.a wrote:
>
>> Dear LO Team,
>>
>> please post somewhere which icons do you need for the 5.3 release (I
>> didn't know the time shadule, if it's not to late).
>>
>> It would be very helpful if you have a wiki page where you add the list
>> with new icons in the next release cause I'd like to update the breeze
>> icon set, but without the icon names it's not easy.
>>
>> I'll tested the experimental notebook bar and there are some icons
>> missing in breeze but also in (all) other icon sets, so the list would
>> be useful not only for me.
>>
>> cheers
>> Andreas_K
>>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes of the Design Hangout: 2017-Mar-23

[kainz.a]

Hi Papamatti,

you are the sifr designer. good to know. I work now on some toolbar stuff
but after that I'd like to get an better overview about the different icon
sets. So maybe I can help. My goal is to have the different icon sets in
the core repo. I can also help with svg stuff. And I'd like to have the
icon in 16, 24 and 32px like breeze.

Andreas_K
the breeze icon designer

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Branding for LibreOffice 6.0

[kainz.a]

>
> Task:
> * New motif (Question: Or do we want to keep the triangles rather than
> moving forward to hexagons?)
>   + Current design
> + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Visual_Elements
> * Applying the motif to new splash screen / banner (661x169px)
>   + Current design
> + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding
>   + Previous ideas
> + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Playground/Splash_screen
> + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding/Banner_
> Proposals
> * Applying the motif to flyers, stickers etc.
>   + Current flyers
> + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Gallery_Flyers
> * (Can we technically introduce a new progress bar and do we want to?
> There is a proposal https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Chin_Zee_Yuen
> )
> * (What else?)
>
>
what do you need in which resolution?
- splash screen (661x169px)
- start screen, motif?
- LibreOffice logo?
- Application logos?


> Restriction
> * Follow guidelines for colors and branding
>   + https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding
> * Create at least two ideas that can be presented to the community
> * Finish the job until end of July 2017
> * Use open data format or at least SVG
> (What else?)
>
> Metaphors (i.e. For what stands LibreOffice?)
> * Transparency, Sustainability, Freedom
> * Community
> * MUFFIN
> * Green
> * Six, hexagon, ...
>

- Connection between webpage and LibreOffice Design?
- New features for LibreOffice 6?
- Marketing Strategy, what's the selling point for 6.0?
- Why do you release LibreOffice 6 in Q1/2018

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes of the Design Hangout: 2017-Mar-16

[kainz.a]

If you need some svg templates, that should not be the Problem tell me only
how they have to be prepared.

Am 16.03.2017 14:21 schrieb "Noel Grandin" :

>
>
> On 2017/03/16 2:11 PM, Heiko Tietze wrote:
>
>>  * Custom Shapes
>>+ Had a kick-off today
>>  + http://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/UX-CustomShapes
>>
>
> Your survey could perhaps do with some result collapsing,
> which means the results look more like:
>
>   Flowchart + BPMN (81 Votes)
>   Network + Cisco (57 Votes)
>   Electrical + Circuit + Electronic (49 Votes)
>   Database + Entity-relationship (47 Votes)
>   UML (36 Votes)
>   Building site + Civil Engineering (26 Votes)
>   Logic (20 Votes)
>   Function Structure Diagram (13 Votes)
>   Gradient (12 Votes)
>   EPC (11 Votes)
>   Chronogram (10 Votes)
>
> which also more closely matches my experience with seeing people using
> programs like Draw and Visio.
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Reason for creating document

[kainz.a]

Hi Lach,

I had something similar in mind, that you get the used things that were
available in the document (simple document, book with bookmarks,
references, ...) but when I play now with the ui files I have to say it is
nice when you get an interface that fit's the users need. In addition it
would be very difficult when the UI change each time, that the user feel
femilar with it.

cheers
Andresa

2017-04-20 15:01 GMT+02:00 Sławomir Lach :

> My idea is about fit UI of LO for current use reason. When user creates
> new document, LO can ask for reason, like printing, notes, etc., so UI
> is fit for selected use reason. For example, writter could show text in
> webpage view mode, etc. The reason should been written into document.
> Another idea is to create link to run LO apps with special parameter,
> so user could run for example notes program and system will run
> lowritter --notes-ui in resposne.
>
> Best regards,
> Lach Sławomir.
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Weekly design/UX meeting on Apr/20

[kainz.a]

* dialog design
   + tab layout in dialogues tdf#106323


2017-04-20 0:53 GMT+02:00 Heiko Tietze :

> Hello everyone,
>
> some topics for tomorrow, feel free to submit other
>
>  * Procedure for tickets needsUXAdvice
>+ ux-advice should be added to cc list when the keyword is set
>+ should it be removed when the keyword is deleted?
>
>  * Revert selection mode to standard when done
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=88474
>+ currently when you cancel the selection the mode is reverted from
> Adding, for instance, to Standard
>+ pro reverting to Standard (as today): cancel is not the normal
> operation and most users
>  expect it to be reverted
>+ con: other tools keep the manually set mode until the user changes it
> back
>+ Microsoft toggles selection mode per alt (block mode) and ctrl
> (addition) (but not in combination)
>  making the discussion obsolete
>
>  * Confirmation for overall actions such as deletion of comments
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78302
>+ Do we want to introduce a guideline to confirm actions that affect
> not only the current selection?
>+ Yes means to let the user confirm 'delete all comments', for example,
> No means to keep the current behavior
>
>  * Notebookbar
>* Contextual sections
>  + Add copy? https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_
> bug.cgi?id=105974
>
> Hope to see you tomorrow 10am UTC (12:00 CEST) on Jitsi
> https://meet.jit.si/LibreOfficeDesign
>
> Cheers,
> Heiko
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar's tabbed implementation

[kainz.a]

Hi Jay,

look good to me I like the 3 row layout. I would add the Digital Signatures
left to Properties and maybe (only maybe) the wizards as drop down menu to
Templates.

Than I only miss send via mail, but I didn't find a place for it.

as there are sometimes icons and sometimes not (recent, versions, open
template), how would it look if only the main group action get an icon?

cheers
Andreas

2017-04-20 7:49 GMT+02:00 Yousuf Philips :

> Hi All,
>
> I'm working the tabbed (aka ribbon) implementation of the Notebookbar by
> adding and organizing the available buttons and controls in its various
> tabs and wonder if there are others interested in collaborating with me on
> it.
>
> I've been working on the File tab and i'm close to completion, so here is
> a preview - http://imgur.com/im8TNRx
>
> Yousuf Philips
>
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[libreoffice-design] Notebookbar Buttons instead of Tabs

[kainz.a]

Hi,

would it be possible to have buttons that can open the context-xxx thing.
The "problem" is that when I have a context toolbar it is really awesome
but it would be nice to show the user what are the context toolbars AND to
save space it would be way easier to say if you want to insert something to
to the insert Button, ...

http://imgur.com/a/qcRYa

I know it's something like a tabbed toolbar, BUT at tabbed toolbares it's
not possible to mix between tabs and icons. As you see in the linked
pickture with the buttons it would be possible. In addition there are way
more posibilities if you can use a button to open the context toolbar than
tabs.

And it look better ;-) In the end I can make something like this
https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/12/Figure6.png

@eszka please help me.

thanks in advance
Andreas_K

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Branding 6.0

[kainz.a]

look really good, I'm impressed. maybe a bit less colors focus on one color
instead of two.

but very cool.

andreas

2017-08-10 21:03 GMT+02:00 Line :

> The download links :
>
> The png : http://ovh.to/45KGb3u
>
> The svg : http://ovh.to/grn5wd2
>
> (I putted the max. time limit : 30 days to download)
>
> Good evening
>
> Line
>
>
> Le 10/08/2017 à 20:15, Line a écrit :
>
>> Please find some tests attached. I confess that I've begun yesterday
>> evening ^ ^
>>
>> Is there a particular process to share pictures ? Or is it ok with
>> attached files process ? (sorry for this another newbie's question)
>>
>> In the .svg I let the fonts editable (LibreOffice Vegur font), if you'd
>> like to do somethink else.
>> The name of the font used in the last picture for "Event" and the "6" is
>> "Caveat" : https://www.fontsquirrel.com/fonts/caveat
>>
>> This file is not clean for deliverable, it's just a try.
>>
>> Hope it may help
>>
>> All comments welcome to improve
>>
>> Line
>>
>> PS : I won't be at my computer for 2-3 days, so don't worry if I don't
>> reply in the meanwhile
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 10/08/2017 à 17:02, Heiko Tietze a écrit :
>>
>>> Hi Line,
>>>
>>> Prerequisite is to have the drawings in SVG or even better ODG (the
>>> final images are svg, png, and bmp). The cubes are realized in LibreOffice
>>> Draw as real 3D objects with a defined pitch and rotation, which wasn't
>>> easy to setup. Making these objects into triangles sounds like hard work.
>>> Of course, you are free to make proposals. We should respect the community
>>> decision made in the voting. So cubes are set. But colors and details are
>>> free to modify. You can download the current state from the wiki and modify
>>> it with Draw.
>>>
>>> Looking forward your ideas,
>>> Heiko
>>>
>>> On 10.08.2017 16:36, Line wrote:
>>>
 Thank you all so much for your warm replies :-)

 So, let's go for my comments :

 I really like the idea of cube/hexagon from K-J. Because cube = 6
 faces, and it's the version 6 of LibreOffice ;-)

 For the dice, it maybe a little bit touchy. It's great because it's
 playfull. But here in France we say that dices are part of "jeux de
 hasard"; in english "games of chance", but "hasard" can have a negatif
 meaning here.

 Styling : I really like the drawing by K-J. Maybe can we try some
 others styles ? For examples :
 - 3-colors : the main LO green color + grey + white. It could improve
 the consistency with others LO visual materials
 https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding
 - maybe inserting some triangles like in this picture, to boost the
 global branding : https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibO_
 CommunityAnniversary_10years_300x300.png
 - maybe trying the draw with only lines, no fullfilment ?
 - why not playing with geometry and do some impossible figure, like the
 Escher cube (the picture bellow is just for the concept, not the style) :
 https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/Escher_Cube.png
 Meaning : "With LibreOffice, we can do all and the impossible tasks" ;-)

 Do you think I can make some tries from the concept by K-J or it's rude
 to do so ? I don't know the customs here but wouls like to respect them.

 Best

 Line


 Le 10/08/2017 à 08:34, K-J LibreOffice a écrit :

> Hi Line,
> Am 09.08.2017 um 18:00 schrieb Line:
>
>> Hi dear LibreOffice team,
>>
>> I'm newbie on this mailing-list, and I don't know if I'm allowed to
>> tell my humble opinion.
>>
> Yes of course.
>
> First of all, a big sorry for my english, I'm French (the best
>> argument ever ;-))
>>
> My German's English isn't better.
>
> Second, a big Thanks to all of you for your contribution to make
>> LibreOffice better.
>>
>> I'm graphic designer (speciallity webdesign) and I've got a
>> suggestion to share, based on the nice work done by K-J.
>>
> It would be good if you share your thoughts and suggestions. I have
> learned many here in project by the others' comments, thoughts, 
> suggestions
> and improvements. And getting advices from a professional is much more
> worth to listen.
>
>
>

>>
>>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Weekly design/UX meeting on Jul/26

[kainz.a]

Am 26.07.2017 21:27 schrieb "Heiko Tietze" :

Hello everyone,

we have some topics to discuss tomorrow:

Organization

 * Participation in the design meeting declined
   + one reply on direct emails

 * New survey planned about LibreOffice Aspects



What do you mean with security? Macros are unsecure but users how want to
use them will use them also when they are unsecure.

Compatibility with ms office or between different libreoffice versions.
Eyerybody will say 100% what you can't guarantee on each question. Are open
document files compatible between your used office suites? This would mean
save your files in odt, ... not in docx and say than libreoffice isn't
compatible. MS can open odt files. For me it would be very interested if I
save the office files in odt if the different users can use libreoffice or
ms office and you didn't have to care.

Stability would be interested with the link to the office version. Is
stable really more stable than frash? Again this is also a question to the
devs not the users. Would be nice to have a bit of automated user
statistics.

Technical support is a really good question. Ubuntu start with a lot of
wiki and community support. I use always ubuntuusers.de that's the reason I
didn't want to switch somewhere else and cause I am happy.

3 days ago there was a office 365 article in the newspaper. Everybody talk
about the costs.
http://mobil.derstandard.at/261654137/Office-365-Abo-fuer-Microsoft-nun-lukrativer-als-traditioneller-Office
Our IT company in the work didn't want to support office 365 cause the
cloud office files were stored as backup in the ms cloud. We have big data
security requirements from our clients and than we should writer our
documents on an US server. Does nobody see a security issue only costs?
That's a libreoffice selling point.

what mean innovation. You can also ask do you want an ms clone or should we
find individual solutions. I would love to see innovations but than you
need the manpower. Clone ms functionality need a lot of work.

Trusted producer. What should you learn from that question. Ms ship add
with win 10 you can call it spyware but most users trust ms. Would you like
to ship spyware with libreoffice?

What do you mean with usability. You can ask does libreoffice support your
workflow or something like this.

I don't know a friend or college how use libreoffice so before ask if
someone would ask me the first question would be how many people I know how
use libreoffice.

Fresh, stable, master. Really good question did libreoffice didn't have an
answer which version was regularly updated.

Affiliate what does it mean? Administrator for office, server, ...
Which apps do you use on a regular base, ...
Home, office user, student, ...

Member of document foundation. Link to the benefits.

Windows 7 bis 10 win 10 should be also available.

Andreas

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Weekly design/UX meeting on Jul/26

[kainz.a]

2017-07-26 23:16 GMT+02:00 Heiko Tietze <tietze.he...@googlemail.com>:

> On 26.07.2017 22:49, kainz.a wrote:
> >> * New survey planned about LibreOffice Aspects
>
> > What do you mean with security?
>
> This question is identical to what has been asked in the Github survey.
> This survey is related to Open Source software development where security
> is one of the most important aspects compared to closed and proprietary
> software (users choose Open Source products because of the better
> security). The results would reveal whether or not our users have a
> different view on the Open Source topic.
> I also got asked about replicability (you can use the full source code or
> parts in other projects) and transparency (looking into a function is
> possible). Those terms are of course a challenge for translators.
>
>
Thanks didn't know. So the user group of the survey are end users and you
want to know if they are interested into the same things like system
admins. Interesting question.

thanks for the feedback.
Andreas

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Weekly design/UX meeting on Jul/26

[kainz.a]

Maybe a question about extensions

do you would like to share templates with the community or with authorized
groups (company, friends)

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Branding 6.0

[kainz.a]

great work all together.

look really good. well done
Andreas_K

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Branding 6.0

[kainz.a]

Welcome Line,

what's your suggestion?

cheers
Andreas_K

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes of the Design Hangout: 2017-Aug-17

[kainz.a]

I always read you mails about the meetings to get to know what's on the
roadmap.

2017-08-17 15:43 GMT+02:00 Heiko Tietze :

> As it was only Stuart and me in the design meeting today, we just talked
> about special character handling and postpone the topics for the next week.
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Branding 6.0

[kainz.a]

Like I wrote a bit less different colors like in A of the attached link.

https://files.arsenalrace.at/owncloud/index.php/s/8iHg7WvhFTNL0Sq

you can join the #libreoffice-design irc channel

best regards
Andreas

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting Aug-31

[kainz.a]

>
>  * New Tango icons
>+ https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/41688/
>+ glossy or not
>

Thanks for the discussion. I used the adwaita svg file from the gnome
project to make the icon. can remove the glossy if needed.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] New icon for Updater GUI necessary

[kainz.a]

Hi,

screenshot where the icon is needed, icon name and the icon size (px)

thanks

2017-08-22 20:39 GMT+02:00 Markus Mohrhard :

> Hey,
>
> I already tried it yesterday on IRC but did not get a response. For the
> work on the automatic updater we need a new icon. Attached is the icon that
> is currently used but was copied from the Mozilla source code.
>
> The icon will be used as the official icon of the updater executable and
> should be seen on Windows in the task bar and on Linux for example in GTK3
> as the icon of the active program.
>
> Regards,
> Markus
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for design meeting 2018-May-09

[kainz.a]

Notebookbar future plans from jay

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xmtJPPnQfEWbccDSRD3-_xAmMGAMELs16VBXe1iLZ7Q/edit?usp=sharing

2018-05-09 7:30 GMT+02:00 Heiko Tietze :

> On 08.05.2018 12:29, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> > I would also add to the discussion what are the blocker bugs that are
> preventing removing the Notebookbar from being an experimental feature so
> that we can do a final push to have it as a full fledged feature.
>
> We used to have this open discussions in the past and ended up in meetings
> that last very long. I'm trying to find topics/tickets/questions that makes
> it easy to answer with yes/no after carefully balancing the pro and cons.
> And prioritization of tasks is up to the GSoC student and mentor. So what
> you can do is to collect the issues, think Jay have done it in a GDoc, and
> update the list. Or run a separate discussion on the ML.
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting 2018-Jun-13

[kainz.a]

>   * Harmonization of main menus
>+ http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.
> com/Menubar-td4241658.html
>  + Base https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/55542/
>  + Writer https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/55505/
>  + Math https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/55545/
>  + Basic https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/55540/
>  + Chart https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/55544/
>  + Bibliography https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/55546/
>  Merged in master and 6.1
>  + Start center  https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/55601/



>
>+ Go for harmonization as many of those menu entries will be disabled?
>

I don't think that disabled (not available) actions should be available in
the menubar. But the arrangement (sorting and grouping) should be
everywhere the same.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar status for LibreOffice 6.1

[kainz.a]

Hi,

Groupedbar and Tabbedbar's are ready. I already update the UI so that they
can be "released". Groupedbar and Tabbedbar has a full and a compact view.

Groupedbar and Tabbedbar's were tested with Colibre icon theme. All actions
has an Icon, Icon + Label or Label only.

For switch between different User Interfaces there is a Menu button on the
top right. Tabbedbar has in addition on the top left an show menubar icon.

Contextual Groups (called Heikobar) and Contextual Single didn't get an
update.
- Contextual Single should be removed from the build cause it's only an
design study where many stuff is missing.
- Contextual Groups need an update or should be turned off until it will be
updated, cause if the menubar is turned off you can't switch the UI (you
have to delate your profile or whatever). The problem is that it's the
first in the list.

Design wise Notebookbar waiting for testers. The problem is, that there are
open bugs so the developers can't move the feature out of experimental.

In a movie I would show the different idea behind tabbedbar (where your
content is grouped in tabbs) and groupedbars (where all "main" content is
always available and the rest in the drop dowm group label.

User feedback is really needed!

Cheers
Andreas_K

2018-05-30 9:41 GMT+02:00 Mike Saunders <
mike.saund...@documentfoundation.org>:

> Hello!
>
> So the release of LibreOffice 6.1 is still a couple of months away, but
> we in the marketing community are starting to plan the release
> announcement, videos and other materials.
>
> How is the Notebookbar looking? I assume it'll still be experimental in
> 6.1? I recall someone (Andreas?) saying that one of the Notebookbar
> variants is getting close to completion, however, so we could mention
> that in the press release / video.
>
> Indeed, I could make a separate video showing how to try it. The two
> things to bear in mind are:
>
> 1) It must be easy to revert to the "normal" layout
> 2) If there are many different Notebookbar variants in the experimental
> mode, we need to be careful that users don't accidentally enable the
> wrong one, and complain...
>
> Cheers,
> Mike
>
> --
> Mike Saunders, Marketing & PR
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar status for LibreOffice 6.1

[kainz.a]

Nr. 1 and 2 can I fix as fare as I know isn't it. So can you make a mockup
Pedro and let's fix it.

Excluding that the issue is that there is no dev available to do bugfixing.
Hope the GSOC student can fix something but since now the output isn't high.

Another question is, should we announce an feature where no dev is working
on it?

Cheers
Andreas

2018-05-30 12:15 GMT+02:00 Pedro Rosmaninho :

> There's very few blocker bugs frankly.
> The main ones are:
> 1 - Media (Audio and Video) toolbar still doesn't have a Tabbedbar and
> Groupedbar eequivalent,
> 2 - Chart editing toolbar also doesn't have a Tabbedbar and Groupedbar
> equivalent (the commands that can be added to the Object editing
> Tabbedbar/Groupedbar are mentioned here
> <https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117690>)
> 3 - After finishing those two issues, toolbars should be deactivated for
> the Notebookbar so that they don't open below the Notebookbar UI -
> inconsistent behaviour).
>
> Excluding that it's just minor issues that can quickly be solved.
>
>
> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 9:02 AM kainz.a  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Groupedbar and Tabbedbar's are ready. I already update the UI so that they
>> can be "released". Groupedbar and Tabbedbar has a full and a compact view.
>>
>> Groupedbar and Tabbedbar's were tested with Colibre icon theme. All
>> actions
>> has an Icon, Icon + Label or Label only.
>>
>> For switch between different User Interfaces there is a Menu button on the
>> top right. Tabbedbar has in addition on the top left an show menubar icon.
>>
>> Contextual Groups (called Heikobar) and Contextual Single didn't get an
>> update.
>> - Contextual Single should be removed from the build cause it's only an
>> design study where many stuff is missing.
>> - Contextual Groups need an update or should be turned off until it will
>> be
>> updated, cause if the menubar is turned off you can't switch the UI (you
>> have to delate your profile or whatever). The problem is that it's the
>> first in the list.
>>
>> Design wise Notebookbar waiting for testers. The problem is, that there
>> are
>> open bugs so the developers can't move the feature out of experimental.
>>
>> In a movie I would show the different idea behind tabbedbar (where your
>> content is grouped in tabbs) and groupedbars (where all "main" content is
>> always available and the rest in the drop dowm group label.
>>
>> User feedback is really needed!
>>
>> Cheers
>> Andreas_K
>>
>> 2018-05-30 9:41 GMT+02:00 Mike Saunders <
>> mike.saund...@documentfoundation.org>:
>>
>> > Hello!
>> >
>> > So the release of LibreOffice 6.1 is still a couple of months away, but
>> > we in the marketing community are starting to plan the release
>> > announcement, videos and other materials.
>> >
>> > How is the Notebookbar looking? I assume it'll still be experimental in
>> > 6.1? I recall someone (Andreas?) saying that one of the Notebookbar
>> > variants is getting close to completion, however, so we could mention
>> > that in the press release / video.
>> >
>> > Indeed, I could make a separate video showing how to try it. The two
>> > things to bear in mind are:
>> >
>> > 1) It must be easy to revert to the "normal" layout
>> > 2) If there are many different Notebookbar variants in the experimental
>> > mode, we need to be careful that users don't accidentally enable the
>> > wrong one, and complain...
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Mike
>> >
>> > --
>> > Mike Saunders, Marketing & PR
>> > The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Kurf%C3%BCrstendamm+188,+10707+Berlin,+DE=gmail=g>
>> >
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018-May-30

[kainz.a]

the grid isn't really usefull in LibreOffice and the main reason is that
it's not really visible. I prefer the grid in Inkscape but in LibreOffice
it's not really useful.

cheers
Andreas

2018-05-31 14:41 GMT+02:00 Maarten Brouwers :

> Typically lurking here, but this touches an important issue.
>
> > If a sighted person report to us the contrast is not good we shouldn't
> think in term of number of people, IMO we should think in term of
> usability. Most of visual-impaired people I've met and also myself need
> contrasted stuff on their screen. It's also useful for elderly people and
> most of people we obtain a better UX on their computer.
>
> Made a similar comment in bugzilla: https://bugs.
> documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117348#c23  documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117348> …also you don’t turn on
> gridlines to be subtle, you turn them on to be useful. Perfectly sighted
> people can sometimes be "visually impaired" when working outside in the
> sun, have a low quality screen, etc. Pedro is right here.
>
> g.,
>
> Maarten
>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2018-Aug-08

[kainz.a]

Am Di., 7. Aug. 2018 um 16:56 Uhr schrieb Heiko Tietze <
tietze.he...@gmail.com>:

> Hello all,
>
> here is the agenda for the design/UX meeting tomorrow
>
> Tickets
>
>  * Heavy changes regarding menu; review needed
>+ https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/56912/


and this
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/56980/

>
>
>  * Bundle the new "EB Garamond" font with LibreOffice
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=119085
>+ https://fonts.google.com/specimen/EB+Garamond
>+ https://github.com/georgd/EB-Garamond
>+ SIL Open Font License 1.1
>+ packed 2.5MB incl. OTF and TTF
>+ prefer an easy way to load fonts from extension site but for slighlty
> now tend to agree (Heiko)
>
>  * Styles & Formatting deck is overpopulated with styles
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69551 (and
> tdf#118664)
>+ bad generic statement, disagree with the idea of "too many" styles
>+ what is a "good number of styles"?, what should to be dropped
> exactly? (Heiko)
>+ we have several options to filter/sort styles (Stuart)
>=> postponed
>
>  * Introduce more text box styles in Draw/Impress
>* https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94369
>+ what exactly (these styles are hard-coded)
>=> postponed
>
reply to the bug report. I'm for add the pinned styles from writer.


>  * Confusion with CALC: Show Comment on/off
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107144
>+ comment 4
>
>  * Autocomplete taking special characters
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=118399
>+ WFM (Heiko)
>
>
>
> Full pad is here https://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/design
>
> Hope to see you at 6pm UTC (20:00 CEST) on Jitsi at
> https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design
>
> Cheers,
> Heiko
>
> PS: There will be no meeting next week, Aug/15th.
>
>
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[libreoffice-design] Re: Extension webpage layout update

[kainz.a]

Morning

That's a good plan. I would go with 2-3 people (hopefully). But 3
playgrounds should be enough.

The design team discussion is ordinary at #libreoffice-design

Thanks a lot
Andreas k

Andreas Mantke  schrieb am Fr., 10.
Aug. 2018, 06:31:

> Hi Andreas,
>
> it's not recommend to do this on / inside the productive site, but we
> could set up a playground, where you could play live with the website
> design.
>
> Could you please explain how many team members want to work on this topic?
> Maybe we / I could create a seperate playground for each of them, this you
> could compare different approaches.
>
> Cheers,
> Andreas
>
> Am 9. August 2018 22:59:08 MESZ schrieb "kainz.a" :
> >Hi Mantke,
> >
> >is it possible that the LibreOffice design team can play around with
> >the
> >css files of the extension webpage? I'm thinking of a subfolder where
> >we
> >can have write access and play around with the extension webpage theme.
> >So
> >something like a live design playground.
> >
> >thanks for your feedback
> >Andreas Kainz
> >
> >2018-04-13 15:34 GMT+02:00 Andreas Mantke <
> >andreas.man...@documentfoundation.org>:
> >
> >> Hi Andreas,
> >>
> >> Am 11.04.2018 um 09:03 schrieb hostmas...@documentfoundation.org:
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > I'm a LibreOffice designer and want to ask if it's possible to make
> >some
> >> small changes in the layout (no bold text, ...) I'm not interested
> >into a
> >> redesign, only update the css file.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers
> >> > Andreas Kainz
> >>
> >> it's possible to make (small) changes in the theming of the
> >LibreOffice
> >> extensions and templates website. The source code of the site is
> >here:
> >> https://github.com/tdf/extensions.libreoffice.org
> >>
> >> There is also a description about the theme development and how you
> >> could change the css.
> >>
> >> Kind regards,
> >> Andreas
> >>
> >> --
> >> Andreas Mantke 
> >> Twitter: @andreaslibo Skype: andreaslibo
> >> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, Germany
> >> Rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
> >> Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
> >>
>
> --
> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail
> gesendet.
>

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[libreoffice-design] Re: Extension webpage layout update

[kainz.a]

Hi Mantke,

is it possible that the LibreOffice design team can play around with the
css files of the extension webpage? I'm thinking of a subfolder where we
can have write access and play around with the extension webpage theme. So
something like a live design playground.

thanks for your feedback
Andreas Kainz

2018-04-13 15:34 GMT+02:00 Andreas Mantke <
andreas.man...@documentfoundation.org>:

> Hi Andreas,
>
> Am 11.04.2018 um 09:03 schrieb hostmas...@documentfoundation.org:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm a LibreOffice designer and want to ask if it's possible to make some
> small changes in the layout (no bold text, ...) I'm not interested into a
> redesign, only update the css file.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Andreas Kainz
>
> it's possible to make (small) changes in the theming of the LibreOffice
> extensions and templates website. The source code of the site is here:
> https://github.com/tdf/extensions.libreoffice.org
>
> There is also a description about the theme development and how you
> could change the css.
>
> Kind regards,
> Andreas
>
> --
> Andreas Mantke 
> Twitter: @andreaslibo Skype: andreaslibo
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, Germany
> Rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
> Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018-Sep-05

[kainz.a]

I am not sure how many work firefox personas are. In general l would prefer
different color schemes instead of personas.

Stephan Bergmann  schrieb am Do., 6. Sep. 2018, 08:41:

> On 05/09/18 20:49, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> >   * Personas not found again
> > + importance high/major!
> > + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=118881
> > +
> http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/About-Persona-lightweight-themes-td4244320.html
> > + Options:
> >   + remove this feature completely
> >   + don't access images via network but ship a few and make the
> feature an extension
> >   + revamp the code to adopt the new API
> >   + ?
> > => preference to simplification and extension (Heiko)
>
> Not sure from the above what part exactly of the feature you want to
> turn into an extension (the code itself or the persona data), but one
> note:  In general, be careful when including new kinds of data content
> in extensions.  That creates new interfaces between LO and extensions,
> and those interfaces need to be kept compatible, which is a maintenance
> burden.
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[kainz.a]

First I don't think we need a default cause default is the standard
toolbars and all others aren't default arranged in a list.

If one should be preferred I go with tabbed toolbar cause the concept is
well known since 10 years and it scale pretty well. Groupedbar is for my
workflow better but I use a 24" uhdpi office screen on the 12" laptop I
would use tabbedbar or tabbed compact.

In the end the main question is how we guarantee that new features get
implemented in the different implementations.

Cheers
Andreas_k

jan  schrieb am Do., 29. März 2018, 19:33:

> I would go with the tabbed bar.
>
> * It is somewhat scalable (e.g. for potential addons ) by adding tabs if
> really needed.
> * It is similar to the MS office style
> ** It makes it easier for people who want to switch from MSO
> ** It can be a good argument for decision makers that it is like
> applications people know.
> ** I assume MS made quite some effort to get the ribbon concept right so
> doing something similar is likely to be a good idea.
>
> All this might be better estimated with a usability test comparing the
> alternatives in depth, but as long as we did not do this, I would
> suggest above reasoning.
>
> Jan
>
> Am 29.03.2018 um 18:23 schrieb Heiko Tietze:
> > On 29.03.2018 18:02, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> >> IMO, the Groupedbar should be the chosen one.
> >> Here are the reasons why I think it is the most suited one:
> >> 1 - *It has a unique look among Office suites
> >> 2 - It's distinctive from the Ribbon UI
> >
> > That was my question. Personally I wouldn't go with the Groupedbar
> because it has no advantage over classic toolbars, there is a lot of
> unclear movement, and I doubt that Benjamin find his way easily through the
> options. Not saying it's bad design.
> >
> > And your reasons are different from the originally discussed idea to
> make it easy to switch from other programs: "It's encouraged to have
> Notebookbars that simulate alternative programs but "crazy" ideas with
> completely new UI approaches are also welcome."
> >
> > But it's up to the community, which is first the design team. So more
> opinions please.
> >
> >
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Fwd: A proposal for a new set of icons for libreoffice apps

[kainz.a]

I love new icon themes,

please upload them somewhere and submit the link

Andreas_k


2018-03-24 20:00 GMT+01:00 Heiko Tietze :

> Hi Guilherme,
>
> you cannot attach binaries to messages at the mailing list. If you dont
> have own space use your user profile at the LibreOffice wiki. And why not
> just setup an extension? https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2017/
> 10/23/how-to-bundle-icon-themes/
>
> Cheers,
> Heiko
>
> On 24.03.2018 19:26, Guilherme Batista wrote:
> > Dear libreoffice design team,
> >
> > I have deciced to send this email, because I have got an idea for a new
> set
> > of icons that could be used on libreoffice apps. I am sending some png
> and
> > svg files with some concepts for the new icons.
> > I am not a professional designer. My only intention is to contibute to
> this
> > amazing project. If you like my drawings, I would enjoy some feedback.
> >
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Merged Toolbar/Notebookbar menu

[kainz.a]

What's the difference between toolbars, sidebar and notebookbars. They are
different from a dev point of view but from a user perspective they
shouldn't be separate.

So from my point of view no prefix

but as you ordinary don't want to switch the UI often (you have one
work-flow) I'm for a section in the configuration dialog where there is
also some explanation.

In addition the section is the menubar is needed (also for some notebookbar
implementation this drop down list was used).

Add the different layouts into the configuration dialog give also the
information what's a notebookbar and a standard toolbar (the icon size can
be different configured).

Cheers
Andreas_K

2018-03-25 21:02 GMT+02:00 Heiko Tietze :

> Hello,
>
> in the patch https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/49575/ Kshitij is working
> on issue tdf#115131 (merging the two menu flavors). The patch works find
> but we stumbled over the label question. Right now it looks like this
>
> Toolbar
>   Standard
>   Single
>   Sidebar
>   - separator -
>   Notebookbar > Contextual groups
>   Notebookbar > Contextual single
>   Notebookbar > Tabbed
>
> My comment was to remove the prefix but Jay disagreed with the remark that
> such a combined menu would better be called UI Layout. The change may look
> like this
>
> UI Layout
>   Standard
>   Single
>   Sidebar
>   - separator -
>   Contextual groups
>   Contextual single
>   Tabbed
>
> Now I wonder how users may read "UI Layout > Single", for instance. And
> calling it "Single Toolbar" is also not that nice thinking about "Standard"
> or "Standard Toolbar" (and suffixes are similarly awkward as prefixes).
>
> I still prefer this plain solution as any prefix is a clear indicator for
> bad usability (meaning the items are actually meant for a submenu). Any
> opinion?
>
> Cheers,
> Heiko
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Agenda for the design meeting 2018 Mar/21

[kainz.a]

*Colibre backport for 6.0 to get a bigger audience*
+1 stuart

backport the zip file for the icon theme would'n be a big deal
but introduce a new default without a previous release could be an issue.

As already written Colibre follow the icon guidelines from MSO
and since yesterday Colibre is complete. So now I'll make design fixes
and when someone find a missing icon, I'll happy to fix it.

*One icon theme for all platforms*
-1 heiko

In general it's a good idea to have a brand or cooperate design,
but we have Breeze for KDE/Plasma, Tango for Gnome,
Elementary for Elementary and Colibre for Windows.
In addition LibreOffice use also the platform style (gnome, kde, windows)
so when you want one icon theme, than you should make also only one style.

As I wrote I'm not again move icon themes to the extension wepage,
but than LO should also get a unique design and don't fit each platform
as much as possible.


*Galaxy and Tango*

Galaxy is somewhere "hardcoded" into the code (I don't know where)
so I'm not sure if it's possible to remove Galaxy.

Tango is unmaintained and fare away from complete.
I moved the existing tango svg icons to a separate folder so that
the svg files wasn't shipped any more with the images_tango.zip file
this reduce the zip file from 8 mb to 1 mb.

*Breeze, Elementary and Colibre*

I updated Elementary icons for 6.0 and now Elementary is finished like
breeze or colibre. I also maintain all three icon themes. And I think I did
it well in the last years. All three icon themes are made in inkscape so
all are available in svg and png. And I'll vote for make all three svg icon
themes available in LibreOffice Online.

*Community Vote*

Last time we vote was a disaster (mascot, sorry). I'm again a community vote
cause I don't see a benefit Colibre was designed for Windows 10 and it fit's
what if the community say we want to have Elementary default. I would be
again this vote also if you choose breeze. I like both and I think breeze
is the most modern icon theme, but it was designed for plasma not for
windows.

I see a benefit if we involve the community to make colibre better
to report bugs, ...

*My vote*

I will vote for no change for remove icon themes from the core repository
and Colibre as default for LibreOffice 6.1
Backport for LO 6.0 would be fine but no default change in LO 6.0

And sorry I can't participate the design meeting tomorrow.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Agenda for the design meeting 2018 Mar/21

[kainz.a]

Hi Pedro,

thanks for the Notebookbar buglist. We have a GSOC Student how will work on
notebookbar so it's also my dream that notebookbar will be awaiy from
experimental. My dream would be also 6.1 but I hope it will happen at least
with 6.2.

As the notebookbar is different implemented then the default and sidebar
layout I don't think it should be default in the near future. Bigest
problem is that when the NB bugs are fixed the NB isn't configurable by the
LO UI.

But I hopen NB will be ready for use in the near future for the people how
will like it.

I know zereo about coding, but I did the Groupedbar full/compact and
tabbedbar compact. So you don't need ANY coding experience to join the LO
design group on telegram or anywhere else. You can make notebookbars
without coding with the gnome glade app which is a GUI to make the
notebookbar.

Cheers
Andreas_K

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Agenda for the design meeting 2018 Mar/21

[kainz.a]

> How the NB will be configurable if not from the UI file? How it is
> generated?
>

You made the UI file with Glade a GUI design app from the gnome project.
It's "cool" but definitly not the way a user can edit the UI. Also the
sidebar items aren't configurable. For now there is no way to edit the
Notebookbar as a LO user. Maybe in the future, ...

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[kainz.a]

When I look at popular webpages where you can share your content like image
webpages, openclipart, ... they are all very simple.

One overview page with Screenshots and description how is the developer and
categories.

Upload page with uploader, title, description, category and licence. Maybe
tested with version.

Detail page show the selected item and related stuff like other stuff from
user, related things.

Page moderator can edit categories and block content.

Users can rate and review stuff. Maybe it could be useful that users can
submit updates and the origin contributor can review it or update it. So
something like collaborative work.

Contributors have an profile with links to payment pages like patrons, ...
on each template or extensions page you see user information and patron
page links.

The page can be used for extensions, templates, documentations, ...

Nice things would be to have something like a connection to libreoffice
online where you can see if the template, extensions work (for page
moderators).

Categories: each app is an category and than some (not more than 10) other
categories.

Bjoern Michaelsen  schrieb am Fr., 12.
Okt. 2018, 16:02:

> Hi Maarten,
>
> On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 02:06:54PM +0200, Maarten Brouwers (murb) wrote:
> > What about adapting Mozilla’s extension-site?
>
> So lets phrase the problem differently: We are not lacking tools or
> platforms.
> We are lacking volunteers to maintain, develop and moderate on platforms.
> So if
> you find a team of 2 to 3 enthusiastic volunteers that are willing to push
> a
> platform forward that is great. That platform can be Mozilla Addons,
> Askbot,
> Plone or something else.
>
> OTOH that is for later: This is the design list and the focus should be on
> identifying the vital core features needed on a solution. I opened the
> discussion with Askbot as it provides this:
> - We currently have a well-maintained instance.
> - We currently have active moderators on that site.
> - We were able to purchase development on AskBot.
>
> So the workflow has to be:
>
> 1/ Identify core needs and usecases
> 2/ Find volunteers, enthusiasts and maintainers, who can provide these core
>usecases with ~whatever tool they want.
> 3/ Implement MVP on a platform and extend usecases as volunteer resources
> allow
>(maybe topped up with some payed development, if that is worth it)
>
> The tools are NOT the important part of this. People are. Considering
> AskBot,
> which has 100 to 1000 moderators:
>
> https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/badges/14/supporter/
> https://ask.libreoffice.org/en/badges/9/critic/
>
> instead of _only_ considering Plone, because "we always used it" is putting
> people first.
>
> So tl;dr: This is the design list, we do 1/ "Identify core needs and
> usecases"
> here. No tools/platform discussion[1]. Next up would be finding
> enthusiastic
> people willing to work on this. For the most part, they can use whatever
> tool
> they want, if they get stuff done. Even if I think their tool is horrible
> or
> "a bus turned into a car", I am happy, if the users of the site are happy
> and
> there is an active set of volunteers[2] maintaining it.
>
> Best,
>
> Bjoern
>
>
> [1] And again: Saying "Do not limit yourself to Plone" is exactly that: It
> keeps the tools out of a discussion that should identify core usecases.
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_factor
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Requirements for extension site

[kainz.a]

For me the next step would be to get feedback how will help to update the
extension page.

I will help. My skills are design stuff. I know css and php.

Cor Nouws  schrieb am Sa., 13. Okt. 2018, 11:13:

> Heiko Tietze wrote on 13-10-18 09:52:
>
> > document is shared on
> > https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/E5RX5xK6jxQPLdK and open for
> > discussion.
>
> Thanks, I added some comments, suggestions. And text (Ctrl+Shft+E starts
> / stops tracking changes ;) )
> I didn't (yet) look in the mail from Andreas_k (1) to add/compare but
> think the set we are looking for, can be nice and basic.
>
> Cheers,
> Cor
>
>
> 1)  https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg08889.html
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[kainz.a]

Is it possible to use libreoffice online and nextcloud for templates and
extensions?

Cor Nouws  schrieb am Sa., 13. Okt. 2018, 10:56:

> Bjoern Michaelsen wrote on 13-10-18 10:09:
>
> > That is not really an argument against _evaluating_ AskBot as a platform.
> > Evaluating means looking into what can be done with a platform and what
> the
> > challenges are.
> >
> > Beyond that, I have to say I am not too surprised that finding something
> in
> > Askbots 29000 entries is task a bit harder than finding a template in
> the ...
> > twelve[1] templates hosted on the extensions website.
> >
> > Proper tagging (which can be done programmatically) should make twelve
> > templates searchable with AskBot even if it misses things sometimes with
> 29000
> > other entries.
>
> True, tagging will help a lot.
> The availability of a proper way to find, search, however, is a
> condition we know in advance that we have to meet. So good to explicitly
> state it.
> It was by the way the only thing I missed in the nice sum up by Andreas,
> yesterday:
>   https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg08889.html
>
> Now up to the thread Heiko started, with the link to "Requirements
> (2018-Sep-06)"
>   https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg08899.html
>
> Cheers,
> Cor
> --
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[kainz.a]

Hi,

first thanks for ask the question about the extension webpage. And thanks
to Andi that he maintain the page since a long time now.

I'm always for concentrate stuff as it's easier to maintain and easier for
people to use.

For me templates and extension didn't have the same "developer" group.
extensions should have ongoing releases so a git orientated workflow is
more usefull. The source of a lot extensions are on githab or gitlab, ...
Templates will be done by office users so an simple upload will be usefull.

From design point of view I would love to have everything together on
libreoffice.org everywhere the same css file and the same layout.

Another big question is about development. Which platform supports a
community orientated development, which mean when there is a group how do
they work together on the webpage / platform. As example Andi do the
extension page maintanance someone would like to play around with different
design layouts, does the platform support cooperative work and an
"playground" for new developments?

Cheers
Andreas Kainz



Am Fr., 12. Okt. 2018 um 02:27 Uhr schrieb Ricardo Dos Santos <
ricardo.uxdesig...@gmail.com>:

> Hello,
>
> Is there a possibility of an adaptation of the pages and continue using
> Plone?
>
> Or the effort does not pay?
>
> Thanks for attention,
>
> Ricardo
>
> Em qui, 11 de out de 2018 21:17, Daniel A. Rodriguez <
> drodrig...@libreoffice.org> escreveu:
>
> > El jue., 11 oct. 2018 a las 20:24, Thorsten Behrens
> > () escribió:
> > >
> > > Hi Bjoern, *,
> > >
> > > Bjoern Michaelsen wrote:
> > > > This is despite volunteer efforts trying to move this forward, but
> > > > stalling due to limited resources, which led to TDF even attempting
> > > > to get commercial support for Plone[2] to augment the the limited
> > > > volunteer ressources available.
> > > >
> > > Just to spell the above out a bit - despite heroic efforts from Andi,
> > > indeed it appeared the plone site never attracted enough other
> > > contributors.
> > >
> > > So tons of kudos go to Andi here; still I agree with Bjoern that it
> > > would be good to also look for alternative solutions now.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > -- Thorsten
> >
> >
> > So, if the problems are well known and no platform cover all the
> > project needs, what about a tender to get something from scratch?
> >
> > --
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Zoom in grid

[kainz.a]

Yes please update the grid that it can be useable.

Am Mi., 17. Okt. 2018 um 10:41 Uhr schrieb Pedro Rosmaninho <
mota.pr...@gmail.com>:

> Yes please. I also complained about this and the horrible contrast of the
> grid.
>
> On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 8:40 AM 和尚蟹  wrote:
>
> > Because of the current grid, it is only a point to look at, so it will
> not
> > be
> > clear. If you zoom in on the grid, you will see it clearly.
> >
> >
> >
> > <
> >
> http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/file/t495194/Image_1.png
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > <
> >
> http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/file/t495194/Image_5.png
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from:
> >
> http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/Design-f1935996.html
> >
> > --
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Topic for design team to investigate: Content hosting consolidation on ask.libreoffice.org

[kainz.a]

HI,

for the basic UX there are still some ideas from the design team
https://docs.google.com/document/d/12dbdmzi3dy5TwNsIao0MXZSnl7X4jMk5zKwy8Azeohg
(sorry that it is on gdocs)

I also want to say if we have an good extension layout for templates
it can be used also for the documentation webpage
cause both show the same content templates show an template to download
and bocumentation show an book, ... whatever to download.

And please keep it simple. Define the different users and what they want.
LibO user: Install the extension and keep it up to date
Template contributor: Share his template, don't care about LibO version
extension contributor: Extend LibO functionality
Maintainer: Easy setup with collaborative workflow

I'm sorry that Andi didn't join the discussion,
cause it should support his work
and hopefully find new contributors.

Cheers
Andreas

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2018-Oct-24

[kainz.a]

> commented in bug.
>
> >  * Grid lines
> >+ (patch submitted meanwhile)
>
> Look good to me, I'd like to suggest to change the Grid to an dynamich
> Grid cause have an 1x1 mm grid is not what you need on A4 size. Have
> dynamic grid would be super awesome. Inkscape do it the same it sync the
> grid depend on the zoom.
>

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[libreoffice-design] Notebookbar out of Experimental

[kainz.a]

Hi,

I know the notebookbar implementation has bugs but it's under development
since around 4 years and on each release the news pages wrote about this
experimental feature.

I talked at Munich Hackfest about the big open bugs
- bad keyboard navigation
you can use F6 like in every other LibO app (F6 switch from Menubar to
Toolbar to NB to Sidebar), but it would be awesome if
svtlo-ManagedMenuButton will support keyboard shortcut focus if menubar is
hidden and also sfxlo-NotebookbarToolBox widgets which was used to add the
different uno commands didn't work with F6 -> tab
I hope to get some patches to fix this issue, you are welcome to help.

- chart didn't support NB
the chart bug (if you open an chart in writer you see the notebookbar and
the toolbar) can be fixed by add an NB to chart module (which I can do) and
use this NB instead of the chart toolbar. But there is no progress in this
change cause chart if different from other modules.

- OS-X glitches
on OS-X there are several UI issues. I don't have an Mac so I can't say to
much.

The biggest issue is that there is NO developer working on the NB stuff. We
talk each release to bring NB out of experimental. As there is no real
progress (excluding the ui files) I recommend to bring some implementations
(tabbed, groupedbar) ouf of experimental for 6.2. Than we get more user
feedback and maybe some new developers.

cheers
Andreas_K

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Re: Notebookbar in LibreOffice 6.2 Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar status for LibreOffice 6.1

[kainz.a]

Hi Cor

There are two bugs that should be fixed first.

1. Keyboard navigation didn't work well
2. Chart module don't respect NB. Add an chart to writer and see the issue.

but the main issue is, there is NO developer how will fix bugs when nb is
out of experimental. This has to be fixed first. If there is one dev how
care about upcoming bugs than nb can be out of experimental and than I be
motivated to finish the nb work, cause there is some work missing like nb
for draw.

If you find a developer, let me know, than it would be a pleasure for me to
work with her/him. It would be the right time to start now for 6.2

Cheers
Andreas_k

infinitytec  schrieb am Do., 13. Sep. 2018, 00:23:

> I agree.
> I have been really enjoying the polish that the tabbed Notebookbar has in
> 6.1.
>
> Dare I even say it may be a good idea to have the tabbed notebookbar as
> default on Windows builds? It would better integrate with the system, like
> Colibre.
>
>
>
> *Any sufficiently advanced technology is magic to those who do not
> understand it.*
> *-A variation on Clarke's Third Law*
>
>  Original message 
> From: Cor Nouws 
> Date: 9/12/18 3:57 PM (GMT-06:00)
> To: "kainz.a" , Mike Saunders <
> mike.saund...@documentfoundation.org>
> Cc: design@global.libreoffice.org
> Subject: Notebookbar in LibreOffice 6.2 Re: [libreoffice-design]
> Notebookbar   status for LibreOffice 6.1
>
> Hi Andreas, all,
>
> kainz.a wrote on 30-05-18 10:02:
>
> > Groupedbar and Tabbedbar's are ready. I already update the UI so that
> they
> > can be "released". Groupedbar and Tabbedbar has a full and a compact
> view.
> > ...
>
> As far as I've seen, all is still under experimental in master 6.2
>
> It would support testing / visibility to already change that now.
> What do you think?
>
> --
> Cor Nouws
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Re: Notebookbar in LibreOffice 6.2 Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar status for LibreOffice 6.1

[kainz.a]

As long as there is no developer how will do bugfixing for at least 2
releases we don't have to talk about change defaults.

Maybe we can show an startup configuration dialogue or like ubuntu did show
how to change to another layout.

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Re: Notebookbar in LibreOffice 6.2 Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar status for LibreOffice 6.1

[kainz.a]

Pedro, I'm always open for improvements

best would be to fill a bug report and I can do the ui changes.

Am Do., 13. Sep. 2018 um 10:42 Uhr schrieb Pedro Rosmaninho <
mota.pr...@gmail.com>:

> There are some things on the layout that need to be improved and do not
> require a dev. Some things that can be done with Glade. :)
>
> As for having a dev to work on bugfixing I completely agree with you.
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 9:35 AM kainz.a  wrote:
>
>> As long as there is no developer how will do bugfixing for at least 2
>> releases we don't have to talk about change defaults.
>>
>> Maybe we can show an startup configuration dialogue or like ubuntu did
>> show how to change to another layout.
>>
>

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Re: Notebookbar in LibreOffice 6.2 Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar status for LibreOffice 6.1

[kainz.a]

> Is it possible if someone implement first time wizard to choose interface?
>

Or maybe at least an slideshow to the installer.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re[2]: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018-Sep-05

[kainz.a]

Pedro,

you are absolute right. When you have a look at oxygen icons they were
dropped cause there was no maintainer available since years. after they
were dropped a new designer say he want to maintain.

In general a CLEAR statement why something will be dropped is better than
have something that is broken.

Am Mi., 12. Sep. 2018 um 16:00 Uhr schrieb Pedro Rosmaninho <
mota.pr...@gmail.com>:

> That's all very nice but... Who fixes it?
> It´s nice to vote to keep something in, but when that something is
> constantly breaking and there's minimal dev interest to fix or improve it
> (and it needs some dire improvements) why keep it then? Would any of the
> people in favor be willing to fix it and improve it? It's as simple as that.
>
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 1:50 PM Halmai, Csongor  wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> from my personal perspective, I don't use personas, I never did. But...
>>
>> I taught hundreds of people, children and adults as well and I can say
>> most people like "funny little harmless" things
>> like this.
>>
>> Just imagine how many users change their desktop background, even if they
>> cannot see it the whole day. They simply just
>> like personalize it. I think such a little thing that makes LO more
>> attractive for the newcomers, should be kept.
>>
>> If it breaks then it should be fixed.
>>
>> Csongor
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2018.09.12. 3:44, infinitytec wrote:
>> > I'd have to agree with the idea of removing Personas. Why? Because they
>> keep breaking. A couple of prebuilt solid themes would do the trick. Allow
>> people to make and tweak themes as well, and even add images. It could,
>> perhaps, still be compatible with the Persona system, but rely only on LO
>> to function, as I know some issues have been caused on Mozilla's end.
>> >
>> >
>> > Any sufficiently advanced technology is magic to those who do not
>> understand it.-A variation on Clarke's Third Law
>> >  Original message From: Jean-Francois Nifenecker <
>> jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net> Date: 9/11/18  12:22 PM
>> (GMT-06:00) To: "Роман К." <79045_79...@mail.ru>, Pedro Rosmaninho <
>> mota.pr...@gmail.com> Cc: sberg...@redhat.com,
>> design@global.libreoffice.org, libreoffice-dev <
>> libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org>, "kainz.a" 
>> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re[2]: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from
>> the
>> >design meeting 2018-Sep-05
>> > Le 06/09/2018 à 12:32, Роман К. a écrit :
>> >> Hello, all. I agree with "killing" Firefox personas. And I like adding
>> just 4-5 solid color themes.
>> >>
>> > I've (manually) added the LibreOffice 4 Light Ambiance persona from
>> > Firefox on my trainer PC
>> > (
>> https://addons.mozilla.org/fr/firefox/addon/libreoffice-4-light-ambiance/?src=search
>> ).
>> >
>> > Adding them is a chore: you've got to use the advanced mode because, as
>> > already stated, the UI is not working anymore for a lng time.
>> >
>> > After having doubts about personas (in fact I was very reluctant to
>> > using them), I can tell that it draws attention during training
>> sessions ;-)
>> >
>> > So, I'd strongly vote to keep (and fix) the personas thingy and against
>> > having only solid themes.
>> >
>>
>>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-MAR-28 (Thu)

[kainz.a]

>
>  * Rework of Options dialog
>* Requirements/Tickets:
> https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/RyJoZ8Nt6bNfSmt
>+ Categorization:
> https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/cPGtpCTJKTLRNBF
>


Nice that you start with redesign the configure dialogue.

I am not a fan of switch between simple and advanced.
1. I'm an advanced user? Or an dummy user? We have the separation between
fresh and still release. Divide users or settings into two groups is very
difficult and for the user the 1st thing to define before the user start
configure stuff.
2. Maintenance

I am for simple by default for everybody and advanced configure hide behind
an button or in an sidebar section where the user see, I don't want to
touch (e.g. open gl).

For the general layout I would use existing design elements. Like:

- Sidebar in configure dialogue look like navigator in libo.
- settings are structured and layouted like an writer document
- therefore the general dialogue size has to be more adaptable, or have the
same size than the libo document.

Cheers
Andreas_k

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

[kainz.a]

I use only real databases in enterprise and connect them via a webserver to
writer cause my main documents are writer files and some basic parameters
comes from the databases.

The good thing is that I can separate the database stuff from the user
stuff. So the user can write the documents, make the layout, ... and can
use the values from the databases. You only have to link the file with the
database query.

I would love to see some improvements in this direction, not only we are
not compatible with mso. Nobody like macros so we don't have to copy it but
offer an better solution, could improve our situation.

Am Mo., 11. Feb. 2019, 03:42 hat Franklin Weng 
geschrieben:

> On February 11, 2019 7:44:49 AM GMT+08:00, Pedro Rosmaninho <
> mota.pr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >How do the macros in LO work? I thought they were Basic macros? What's
> >the
> >difference for the VBA macros of excel?
> >
>
> StarBasic, not Visual basic.  Excel VBA cannot directly convert to
> StarBasic so they need to be rewritten or recorded again.
>
> I would suggest using Python to recreate macros instead of using
> StarBasic, just that currently there is not many documents available.
>
> --
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> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

[kainz.a]

maybe it's true, but I would prefer to have first level support for open
source solutions instead of look that LibO is compatible with MSO macros.
Have the same (or better) functionality with open source solutions would be
way cooler (maybe in cooperation with LOOL and Cloud storage.

Am Di., 12. Feb. 2019 um 10:58 Uhr schrieb Pedro Rosmaninho <
mota.pr...@gmail.com>:

> These are the types of compatibility issues that really cripple LO
> adoption, even moreso than full file format compatibility.
>
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:57 AM Pedro Rosmaninho 
> wrote:
>
> > Well adding support for VBA would be nice, since it's not developed by
> > Microsoft anymore but they wont remove.
> > So why not add support for it, even without removing LO's implementation?
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 11:35 AM Olivier Hallot <
> > olivier.hal...@libreoffice.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Franklin
> >>
> >> Em 11/02/2019 09:21, Franklin Weng escreveu:
> >> > This Python scripts help is for LibreOfficeDev (6.3) ONLY, right?
> >>
> >> Actually these pages are for any LibreOffice release, Python  scripts
> >> were available from lng time. But we started adding Help pages after
> >> string freeze deadline for 6.2. For what it worth, "6.3" is the master
> >> branch.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> --
> >> Olivier Hallot
> >> LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
> >> Comunidade LibreOffice
> >> Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
> >> http://tdf.io/joinus
> >>
> >>
> >> --
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Material Color Palette

[kainz.a]

there are now 6 color paletts installed in LibO
1. chart
2. freecolour-hlc
3. html
4. libreoffice
5. standard
6. tonal

chart is not really an color platte, it's there for charts in general.
LibreOffice has the branding colors and was used to generate marketing
materials for LibO so it's more an internal palett. html is an full palett
but the target is in general html stuff. freecolour-hlc is really cool but
has 1.000 colors so the average user may need some color  space background.

So in general there are the standard and tonal color paletts available to
do tasks for writer, calc, draw and impress. that was also the reason to
add material palett cause it's well known and you have a well designed
palett for drawing stuff in draw, make shape styles for impress or make
nice tables and charts in chart.

cheers
Andreas_k

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Open Badges

[kainz.a]

As already written I like the shield layout and about the categories we can
use crowns or banners like it was done for origin coat of arms. I'm not
sure if you'd like to mix different contents but at shield's it's not a big
issue to have 2, 4 elements on it.

https://imgur.com/a/P6iploI

as I'd like to update the LibO app icon, I propos an more simple background
and I think the donkey ear is to big. In addition I read from time to time,
the donkey ear should be used only for TDF.

cheers
Andreas_K

Am Mi., 24. Juli 2019 um 09:47 Uhr schrieb Heiko Tietze <
heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org>:

> On 24.07.19 09:24, kainz.a wrote:
> > As in libo each app has it's specific color, I would suggest to have for
> > each part an specific color. Eg. From the standard color palette, cause
> > branding is for app and mime icons.
>
> Color coding has limits and I doubt we can easily distinguish contents or
> tasks by color. But share your ideas and we talk about it.
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2019-Aug-08

[kainz.a]

>+ we should listen more to the users and do more interviews (Franklin)
>+ asking for issues would be QA work so perhaps we think about
>  usability tests or standardized questionnaires
>=> to be continued
>

the issue is, we don't have any automatic tracking features in LibO so it's
very, very difficult to track what is usefull, what not, what is an common
task that is not so easy in LibO than in other apps, ...

So have some standardized tests for the users, could help. In addition
maybe we can work here together with universities where students learn how
to make such kind of tests and analyse them.

cheers
Andreas_K

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Open Badges

[kainz.a]

I like the shield logos on whiteboard. Maybe with bright colors and fine.

As in libo each app has it's specific color, I would suggest to have for
each part an specific color. Eg. From the standard color palette, cause
branding is for app and mime icons.

Have fun
Andreas

K-J LibreOffice  schrieb am Mi., 24. Juli 2019, 08:50:

> Hi,
> some annoying questions:
> 1. Timeline?
> 2. Are my proposals [2] also in the discussion? Or do you want only new
> design?
> 3. Where to collect the ideas? On the whiteboard [2] or on a new page?
> 4. Where to discuss? Here or on Telegram?
>
>
> Am 24.07.2019 um 08:15 schrieb Heiko Tietze:
> [...]
> > [2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards/Badges>
>
>
> --
> Grüße
> k-j
>
> Member of TheDocumentFoundation
> https://www.documentfoundation.org/governance/members/
> https://de.libreoffice.org
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2020-MAR-04 (WED)

[kainz.a]

>
>  * Area Fill update presets
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=130928
>+ which pattern and how many, see c7f.
>

I'm for have more presets in core (3x9) instead of less (3x4) cause it's
not so easy make/find good presets and if you have a look at other office
suites they offer way more presets than we. Also I think the presets from
the bug report are good quality.

cheers
Andreas_K

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2020-MAR-26 (THU)

[kainz.a]

I would prefer to find a solution for gallery in general and than which
gallery we would like to have

* Gallery elements only available as extension
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=131529

There was 2015 an user survey which gallery elements would be usefull
   +
https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2015/04/02/libreoffice-design-session-shapes/


 * Musical notes as a gallery
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=131418
>+ easy to include the notes and a respective template, for sure not as
> perfect as dedicated apps
>+ or wf as there is no immediate need and perhaps out of scope
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice Impress Template Contest by the Indonesian Community

[kainz.a]

For sure we can drop current templates, but we also have to check that the
new templates have good quality.

cheers
Andreas_K

Am Di., 27. Okt. 2020 um 14:06 Uhr schrieb Heiko Tietze <
heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org>:

> Pretty cool templates but I wouldn't ship much more than what we do right
> now.
> So the question is: Which from the current templates do we drop?
>
> On 12.10.20 16:20, Mike Saunders wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Check this out:
> >
> >
> https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2020/10/12/libreoffice-impress-template-contest-by-the-indonesian-community/
> >
> > https://lumbung.libreoffice.id
> >
> > IMO it'd be great to have some of them included in LO by default. What
> > do you think?
> >
>
> --
> Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor
> Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
> Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Next year's GSoC project

[kainz.a]

That's great!

I'm for a mix between Find & Replace with Functions deck and the navigator.
Will send a proposal about this global search idea.

Once again, great that GSOC is a success.

Andreas_K

Am Fr., 7. Aug. 2020 um 10:53 Uhr schrieb Heiko Tietze <
heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org>:

> Hello,
>
> since we are quite successful with the GSoC projects, which hopefully not
> only
> results from capable students and dedicated mentors but also well-prepared
> proposals, I'd like to start thinking about what we can do next year. For
> example: Table of Contents (tdf#135388), Bibliography (tdf#101258),
> Functions
> deck (tdf#92416), Find & Replace in a deck (tdf#95405), etc.
>
> So the question is: What (enhancement) request should we consider?
>
> Once the task is decided we have to collect all surrounding topics from
> Bugzilla, flesh out the requirements, and create mockups for a better
> solution.
> It's work for a couple of month, so I believe the time to start this is
> now.
>
> Thanks in advance for your input,
> Heiko
>
> PS: Sure, the many bugs should be solved first (perhaps with a "100 paper
> cuts"
> project) but that's nothing the design/UX team can support much.
> --
> Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor
> Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Two-years plan

[kainz.a]

Hi All,

Thanks for coming up with this topic, Heiko. The idea came to my mind after
the discussion about a dialogue about the different UI / notebookbar
implementations, where we discuss reducing the notebookbar implementations,
... I work very long on the different notebookbars and had always in mind
to find a good solution for users AND developers. Which means that if there
was a bug I made compromises cause there was no developer available, ... In
the end nobody knows what to do with all this work. So I think it would be
way more useful to make some targets and work on them instead of doing
whatever you want and in the end nobody wants it.

My general ideas for goals for a 2 year plan are:
- find general UI solutions (HIG's) where ALL community members will work
on.
- define targets (meta bugs) where developers and designers will work on.
- reduce different UI layouts to simplify the UI.

Some more specific goals:
- define the UI for desktop, mobile, tablet and web (LOOL) so that we have
a unify "brand/layout"
- have one theming engine for the different platforms which fit mobile,
desktop, online, color scheme, ...

I'm happy to work on any goal doesn't matter if it's from community, CIB,
Colabora, ...

cheers
Andreas_K


Am Fr., 14. Aug. 2020 um 16:54 Uhr schrieb Csongor Halmai :

> Hi All,
>
> I don't know too much (khm. I don't know anything:)) about the internal
> structure of the LO code base. But the question is what I would like
> to see in 2 years so, if you don't mind, I let me go crazy and come up
> with wild ideas, regardless of how easy they are to implement.
>
>
>
> I think it is a waste of the developer resources to redesign the user
> interface every fifth year, when the fashion changes. What did work
> very well in the past, is the add-on system of Firefox. I would like to
> see something similar in LibreOffice.
>
> (I am talking about the first version of the FF addons, when there was a
> lot of freedom, not the newer model, when a lot of nice old addons
> don't work anymore.)
>
>
> It would be great if there was a separate code base in LO which
> manipulates the document itself and a sharply separated other one which is
> responsible for the UI. They should communicate on an interface which
> makes it possible to write UI add-ons for LibreOffice in
> easier-to-learn programming languages, for example Python and/or
> JavaScript, not just C/C++/
>
> In that case, the community would win a lot of competing UIs from
> enthusiastic developers and some of them would be really good. People, who
> are experts of UIs but don't necessarily want to learn the deep secrets of
> the LO code base, would be able to make their on add-ons, like
> thousands of Firefox add-ons made the browser really popular.
>
> After this structural change, people who know LO deeper, can focus on new
> functions, performance improvements, better compatibility and
> other useful things while people, who want to make spectacular UI, can
> focus on just the UI, without knowing too much about the internal
> parts of LO.
>
> There would always be one or two official UI packages which offers an
> acceptable balance between functionality, beauty and used resouces but
> people could choose 3rd party UI add-ons freely, from a LibeOffice add-on
> store.
>
>
>
>
> Disclaimer: I am writing this idea without having any clue what the
> current structure of the code base is and how complicated this change
> would be. Take this just as it is. As an idea which can be ignored if it
> is totally useless. :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Csongor
>
>
>
>
> On 14/08/2020 06:45, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > other communities such as KDE [1] plan the work for next releases. This
> idea
> > also comes up repeatedly for LibreOffice; and while steering in a narrow
> sense
> > is not possible, it make sense to have a common vision for the next two
> years.
> >
> > That's why Andreas Kainz suggested an IRC meeting. We should do this
> similar to
> > the question what topics to foster for next year's GSoC [2]. An example
> for such
> > a 2-year plan clould be to rework all property dialogs and to get rid of
> tabs in
> > favor of a sidebar with text/icons (see tdf#113418; controversially
> discussed in
> > the design meeting today).
> >
> > Please think about where you see LibreOffice in 2 years and what you
> want the
> > design/UX group to achieve. I suggest to share the ideas first here.
> >
> > The meeting should be on Sep/02 at 6pm UTC / 20:00 CEST (Berlin)
> (replacing the
> > usual weekly meeting). We talk on IRC #libreoffice-design (bridged to
> Telegram).
> >
> > Looking forward your thoughts,
> > Heiko
> >
> > [1] https://community.kde.org/Schedules
> > [2] https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg09343.html
> >
>
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