Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

On 17 August 2016 at 03:47, Benedict Elliott Smith wrote: > What this project really needs, and the board is chomping at the bit about, > is diversity. The fact is, right now DataStax does 95% of the substantive > development on the project, and so they make all the

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

I think a separate mailing list for just ticket creation would be nice as well. I think that’s what many of us filter down the commits@ list to. That doesn’t have to happen in place of the proposed change but would make it easier for people to follow new issue creation. From there I go to

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 9:22 AM, Jonathan Ellis wrote: [ ... ] > I propose that we take advantage of the dev list to perform that > separation. Major new features and architectural improvements should be > discussed first here, then when consensus on design is achieved,

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 3:09 PM, Benedict Elliott Smith wrote: > This is a great example of email's inadequacies, as this innocuous (to me) > little textual > act resulted instead in *different* quagmire, while the first potential > quagmire is still in > play! > > Email is

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

Like many difficult problems, it is easier to point them out than to suggest improvements. Anyway, I wasn't proposing we change the mechanisms of communication, just excusing my simplification of (my view of) the problem to avoid ending up in a quagmire on that topic. This is a great example of

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Benedict Elliott Smith wrote: > I think all complex, nuanced and especially emotive topics are challenging > to discuss over textual media, due to things like the attention span of > your readers, the difficulties in structuring your text, and

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

I think all complex, nuanced and especially emotive topics are challenging to discuss over textual media, due to things like the attention span of your readers, the difficulties in structuring your text, and especially the hoops that have to be jumped through to minimise the potential for

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

+1 (non-binding) Thanks Jeremiah. This is moving us in the right direction. On Wed, Aug 17, 2016 at 5:31 AM, Jeremiah D Jordan < jeremiah.jor...@gmail.com> wrote: > Back to the topic at hand. First, let us establish that all of this stuff > will be happening “on the mailing lists”, all JIRA

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

E. Hamilton <dennis.hamil...@acm.org> >> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> > -Original Message- >>> > From: Eric Stevens [mailto:migh...@gmail.com] >>> > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 06:10 >>> > To: dev@cassandra.apache.org

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

The problem is we don't know how > to achieve that. > > > > On 16 August 2016 at 17:24, Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamil...@acm.org> > wrote: > > > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Eric Stevens [mailto:migh...@gmail.com] > &g

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

.org > Subject: Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development > > I agree with Benedict that we really shouldn't be getting into a > legalese > debate on this subject, however "it didn't happen" has been brought up > as a > hammer in this conversation multiple

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

wrote: > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Eric Stevens [mailto:migh...@gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2016 06:10 > > To: dev@cassandra.apache.org > > Subject: Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development > > > > I a

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

I agree with Benedict that we really shouldn't be getting into a legalese debate on this subject, however "it didn't happen" has been brought up as a hammer in this conversation multiple times, and I think it's important that we put it to rest. It's pretty clear cut that projects are free to

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 10:23 AM Jonathan Ellis wrote: > A long time ago, I was a proponent of keeping most development discussions > on Jira, where tickets can be self contained and the threadless nature > helps keep discussions from getting sidetracked. > > But Cassandra was

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

Unfortunately when rulebooks are consulted to shape this kind of discussion, their ambiguity begins to show. What does it mean for something "to happen" on a mailing list? It must be a loose interpretation, because clearly many things do not "happen" on the mailing list, such as all of the code

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

While all of these things are true, it's irrelevant. The ASF has a clear policy on this (the "it didn't happen" policy). Discussions and decisions about the project must be done on the mailing lists. You may disagree with the policy (as many have before you) and feel free to take it up with the

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

There are a few strengths of discussion on the ticketing system over mailing lists. Mailing lists were fundamentally designed in the 1970's and early 1980's, and the state of the art from a user experience perspective has barely advanced since then. * Mailing lists tend to end up with fragmented

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

... but it's important to note that if we take this approach, we need to be careful not to just summarize the conclusion of the discussion, but also approaches that were examined and found to be unviable, and why. Otherwise people looking at the ticket will have to cross reference back to a much

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 6:18 PM, Josh McKenzie wrote: > 2: 8844 would have been a great candidate for being discussed on the > mailing list rather than on JIRA. While I made it a point to front-load > design, we still ran into some unforeseen consequences from the design

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

2 thoughts: 1: I'd hate to see our daily test email getting lost in a flood of jira ticket opening / commenting on trivial day-to-day work. I already have email filters for those from the JIRA feed and, while I could also set up filters on this list, that's an extra burden to participation for

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

> Major new features and architectural improvements should be > discussed first here, then when consensus on design is achieved, moved to > Jira for implementation and review. > So the goal is to mitigate some of the (in most cases necessary) noise that bloated CASSANDRA-8844? (There are others,

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

+1 Sent from my iPhone On Aug 15, 2016, at 6:48 PM, Brandon Williams > wrote: So will I, if that happens, which has never happened in the last ~7 years. On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Jeff Jirsa

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

So will I, if that happens, which has never happened in the last ~7 years. On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Jeff Jirsa wrote: > > On 8/15/16, 2:15 PM, "Marvin Humphrey" wrote: > > > Julian Hyde, who made the proposal, is active in the Apache

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

On 8/15/16, 2:15 PM, "Marvin Humphrey" wrote: > Julian Hyde, who made the proposal, is active in the Apache Incubator … >I propose that when a JIRA is created, we send an email to both dev@ and >issues@. This will be an extra 40 emails per month on the dev list. I am

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

On 2016-08-15 11:34 (-0700), Jason Brown wrote: > Can you give a few examples of other healthy Apache projects which you feel > would be good example? Note: I'm not trying to bait the conversation, but > am genuinely interested in what other successful projects do. The

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

I am +1 on separating JIRA changes into a new issues@ ML and to have mail to start a design discussion in JIRA on the dev@ ML. FWIW, I’m coding for many many years and have seen a lot of attempts to organise discussions within businesses and in public. Most of these discussions were made on

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Dave Lester wrote: > Interesting, thanks for pointing out this distinction. > > Perhaps breaking out issues from the commits list would help make it > easier for folks to subscribe in the future? At least within the Apache > Mesos and

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

Interesting, thanks for pointing out this distinction. Perhaps breaking out issues from the commits list would help make it easier for folks to subscribe in the future? At least within the Apache Mesos and Apache Aurora projects, we’ve seen more people subscribe to issues@ lists than commits@

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

By this definition the Cassandra project is already compliant? There's a commits@ mailing list that behaves just as you describe. I'd personally like to see some reform with how these things work, but mostly because commits@ is rarely going to be subscribed to by anybody who isn't working full

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

> 1. I’d suggest setting up an iss...@cassandra.apache.org mailing list which > posts all changes to JIRA tickets (comments, issue reassignments, status > changes). This could be subscribed to like any other mailing list, and while > this list would be high volume it increases transparency of

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

On 08/15/2016 01:12 PM, Chris Mattmann wrote: > How is it harder to point someone to mail? Mailing lists can be simple to join and converse. Like some other folks, I'm on a large number of lists and get massive amounts of mail. Extremely busy mailing lists need user-level care for them to be

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

For all Apache projects, mailing lists are the source of truth. See: "If it didn't happen on a mailing list, it didn't happen." https://community.apache.org/newbiefaq.html#is-there-a-code-of-conduct-for-apache-projects

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

+1 (nonbinding) to at least announcing major architectural improvements on dev email. I don’t know that it’s going to help encourage more contributors like Chris suggests, but it seems like at worst it won’t hurt, and certainly should help make people aware of Jiras that would otherwise slip

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

Chris, Can you give a few examples of other healthy Apache projects which you feel would be good example? Note: I'm not trying to bait the conversation, but am genuinely interested in what other successful projects do. Thanks Jason On Monday, August 15, 2016, Chris Mattmann

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

I’m not a committer or PMC member. I’m a dev list follower and contributor. I’ve been working with different apache projects for years. I often don’t follow or filter the asf lists because I’m only interested in individual tickets. I often don’t care how the decision was made, though that

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

s/dev list followers// That’s (one of) the disconnect(s). It’s not *you the emboldened, powerful PMC* and then everyone else. On 8/15/16, 11:25 AM, "Jeremy Hanna" wrote: Regarding high level linking, if I’m in irc or slack or hipchat or a mailing list thread,

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

Regarding high level linking, if I’m in irc or slack or hipchat or a mailing list thread, it’s easy to reference a Jira ID and chat programs can link to it and bots can bring up various details. I don’t think a hash id for a mailing list is as simple or memorable. A feature of a mailing list

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

From my interactions with people who are not actively involved I think it is much easier for them to follow a JIRA link and then start being involved in the discussion than it is to get a link to the mail archive and then figure out how to get in on the discussion. People who aren't used to

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

How is it harder to point someone to mail? Have you seen lists.apache.org? Specifically: https://lists.apache.org/list.html?dev@cassandra.apache.org On 8/15/16, 10:08 AM, "Jeremiah D Jordan" wrote: I like keeping things in JIRA because then everything is in

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

I get 2500+ emails a day and I don't filter dev as I like to stay engaged. If this list becomes too noisy everyone will just filter it into a black hole. Sad. Sent from my iPhone On Aug 15, 2016, at 3:05 PM, Russell Bradberry > wrote: So then

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

I don’t want to put words into Jonathan’s mouth, but my guess is that he’s trying to strike a balance between Apache Cassandra’s almost exclusive use of JIRA and like nil conversation on the dev@ list, with an incremental way to *get there* in terms of moving the project to actually use the dev

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

So then what was the point of Ellis’s proposal, and this discussion, if there was never a choice in the matter in the first place? On 8/15/16, 2:03 PM, "Chris Mattmann" wrote: I’m sorry but you are massively confused if you believe that the ASF mailing lists

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

I’m sorry but you are massively confused if you believe that the ASF mailing lists aren’t the source of truth. They are. That’s not optional. If you are an ASF project, mailing lists are the source of truth. Period. On 8/15/16, 11:01 AM, "Michael Kjellman" wrote:

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

I'm a big fan of mailing lists, but google makes issues very findable for new people to the project as JIRA gets indexed. They won't be able to find the same thing on an email they didn't get -- because they weren't in the project in the first place. Mailing lists are good for broad discussion

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

Realize it’s not just about committers and PMC members that are *already* on the PMC or that are developing the project. It’s about how to engage the *entire* community including those that are not yet on the committer or PMC roster. That is the future (and current) lifeblood of the project. The

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

As an active committer, the most important thing for me is to be able to *look up* design discussion and decision easily later. I often look up the git history or CHANGES.txt for changes that I'm interested in, then look up JIRA by following JIRA ticket number written to the comment or text. If

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

This is a good outward flow of info to the dev list. However, there needs to be inward flow too – having the convo on the dev list will be a good start to that. I hope to see more inclusivity here. On 8/15/16, 10:26 AM, "Aleksey Yeschenko" wrote: Well, if you read

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

On 8/15/16, 10:27 AM, "Jeremiah D Jordan" wrote: > In fact, I don’t see JIRA sent to the dev list at all so you are basically > forking the conversation to a high noise list by putting it all in JIRA. This is why I proposed we send a link to the

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

I would also like to add, that for posterity’s sake, JIRA is much more friendly. People want to understand the reasoning behind the changes that have been made. Like why did we default to G1GC? These are all kept in the discussions on the JIRA tickets that implemented the features.

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

> In fact, I don’t see JIRA sent to the dev list at all so you are basically > forking the conversation to a high noise list by putting it all in JIRA. This is why I proposed we send a link to the design lira’s to the dev list. > Putting discussion in JIRA, is fine, but realize, > there is a

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

Well, if you read carefully what Jeremiah and I have just proposed, it wouldn’t be an issue. The notable major changes would start off on dev@ (think, a summary, a link to the JIRA, and maybe an attached spec doc). No need to follow the JIRA feed. Watch dev@ for those announcements and start

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

Discussion belongs on the dev list. Putting discussion in JIRA, is fine, but realize, there is a lot of noise in that signal and people may or may not be watching the JIRA list. In fact, I don’t see JIRA sent to the dev list at all so you are basically forking the conversation to a high noise

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

+1 We should do this for large contributions. Also we should link the dev discussion thread in the JIRA for reference. On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Jeremiah D Jordan < jeremiah.jor...@gmail.com> wrote: > I like keeping things in JIRA because then everything is in one place, and > it is easy

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

I too feel like it would be sufficient to announce those major JIRAs on the dev@ list, but keep all discussion itself to JIRA, where it belongs. You don’t need to follow every ticket this way, just subscribe to dev@ and then start watching the select major JIRAs you care about. --  AY On 15

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

I like keeping things in JIRA because then everything is in one place, and it is easy to refer someone to it in the future. But I agree that JIRA tickets with a bunch of design discussion and POC’s and such in them can get pretty long and convoluted. I don’t really like the idea of moving all

Re: A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

(non binding) +1 On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 7:23 AM Jonathan Ellis wrote: > A long time ago, I was a proponent of keeping most development discussions > on Jira, where tickets can be self contained and the threadless nature > helps keep discussions from getting sidetracked. > >

A proposal to move away from Jira-centric development

A long time ago, I was a proponent of keeping most development discussions on Jira, where tickets can be self contained and the threadless nature helps keep discussions from getting sidetracked. But Cassandra was a lot smaller then, and as we've grown it has become necessary to separate out the