Re: Is Apache Myriad dead?

[Adam Bordelon]

I can vet and vote too, but I don't have a lot of time these days to run a
release myself.

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 4:33 AM, Darin Johnson 
wrote:

> Can you name the 3-5 active PMC members who will vet the next release?
>
> I'm willing to vet next release and contribute additional work we did to
> Myriad but only if I get a solid commitment from others.  Otherwise I'm
> happy to retire and let mapr host their fork.
>
> On Jun 6, 2017 2:29 AM, "Ted Dunning"  wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 12:56 AM, Swapnil Daingade <
> > swapnil.daing...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >> The problem is that there is essentially no real community that is
> >> happening.
> >>
> >> retiring doesn't help that
> >>
> >
> > The core problem here is lack of a viable PMC. A PMC has to have 3 active
> > members at any given point. Typically this requires about 8 live members.
> > Myriad is wildly short of that and thus will have serious problems doing
> > any releases.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> >> None of the engineers previously working on this will be working on
> >> this now. And that sort of situation isn't going to change.
> >>
> >> Events at MapR contributed to this situation. MapR scaled back its
> >> involvement in Myriad and all its committers left.
> >>
> >
> > Well, that is one way to look at it.
> >
> > On the other hand, if you actually were involved in the situations, you
> > would know that none of the committers left because they didn't get to
> work
> > on Myriad as part of their day jobs, nor did any of them feel enough
> > attachment to work after hours (as I do on my projects), nor did any of
> > them continue with the project after leaving for a new startup.
> >
> >
> >> MapR is of course free to take its own decisions. But it sounds like
> >> there is interest in working on Myriad, just not under the ASF umbrella.
> >> I feel without ASF, one company will have too much control on Myriad.
> >>
> >
> > The ASF is moving to retire Myriad because it can't make the cut as a
> > viable project. No company will have control over the Apache version of
> the
> > project at that point because the project is nothing to control.
> >
> > The desire to try to reboot the project outside of Apache has almost
> > everything to do with the fact that Apache processes and the lack of
> active
> > contributors means that nothing can happen. It isn't an end run around
> > Apache constraints for the purpose of control, it is an attempt to keep
> the
> > project alive at all.
> >
> >
> >> Ted, you yourself warned us against this
> >> http://www.zdnet.com/article/hadoop-veteran-ted-dunning-when
> >> -open-source-is-anything-but-open/
> >>
> >
> > Read the article. I warned about projects like Ambari. One company has
> all
> > of the PMC.
> >
> > At this point, the situation with Myriad is almost the opposite.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> >>That means that it will always be a distraction to get committers
> >> qualified as PMC so that they can approve releases and it will never
> really
> >> be possible to exit from incubation.
> >>
> >> I suggest we start with the contributions first.
> >>
> >
> > Can you name the 3-5 active PMC members who will vet the next release?
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Ted Dunning 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 10:15 PM, Swapnil Daingade <
> >>> swapnil.daing...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
>  In that case I suggest we not retire
> 
>  >> "Darin - yes we've done more planning internally, and we do plan on
>  having some engineers spend some time on this project, doing some
> (minor)
>  maintenance for our customers."
> 
> >>>
> >>> The problem is that there is essentially no real community that is
> >>> happening.
> >>>
> >>> None of the engineers previously working on this will be working on
> this
> >>> now. And that sort of situation isn't going to change.
> >>>
> >>> That means that it will always be a distraction to get committers
> >>> qualified as PMC so that they can approve releases and it will never
> really
> >>> be possible to exit from incubation.
> >>>
> >>> Outside of the Apache limits, we can have a much more flexible
> structure
> >>> of who can commit. We don't plan to limit who can commit. In fact, we
> will
> >>> probably make it more open than an Apache project normally is.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
>

Re: Is Apache Myriad dead?

[Darin Johnson]

Can you name the 3-5 active PMC members who will vet the next release?

I'm willing to vet next release and contribute additional work we did to
Myriad but only if I get a solid commitment from others.  Otherwise I'm
happy to retire and let mapr host their fork.

On Jun 6, 2017 2:29 AM, "Ted Dunning"  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 12:56 AM, Swapnil Daingade <
> swapnil.daing...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >> The problem is that there is essentially no real community that is
>> happening.
>>
>> retiring doesn't help that
>>
>
> The core problem here is lack of a viable PMC. A PMC has to have 3 active
> members at any given point. Typically this requires about 8 live members.
> Myriad is wildly short of that and thus will have serious problems doing
> any releases.
>
>
>>
>> >> None of the engineers previously working on this will be working on
>> this now. And that sort of situation isn't going to change.
>>
>> Events at MapR contributed to this situation. MapR scaled back its
>> involvement in Myriad and all its committers left.
>>
>
> Well, that is one way to look at it.
>
> On the other hand, if you actually were involved in the situations, you
> would know that none of the committers left because they didn't get to work
> on Myriad as part of their day jobs, nor did any of them feel enough
> attachment to work after hours (as I do on my projects), nor did any of
> them continue with the project after leaving for a new startup.
>
>
>> MapR is of course free to take its own decisions. But it sounds like
>> there is interest in working on Myriad, just not under the ASF umbrella.
>> I feel without ASF, one company will have too much control on Myriad.
>>
>
> The ASF is moving to retire Myriad because it can't make the cut as a
> viable project. No company will have control over the Apache version of the
> project at that point because the project is nothing to control.
>
> The desire to try to reboot the project outside of Apache has almost
> everything to do with the fact that Apache processes and the lack of active
> contributors means that nothing can happen. It isn't an end run around
> Apache constraints for the purpose of control, it is an attempt to keep the
> project alive at all.
>
>
>> Ted, you yourself warned us against this
>> http://www.zdnet.com/article/hadoop-veteran-ted-dunning-when
>> -open-source-is-anything-but-open/
>>
>
> Read the article. I warned about projects like Ambari. One company has all
> of the PMC.
>
> At this point, the situation with Myriad is almost the opposite.
>
>
>>
>> >>That means that it will always be a distraction to get committers
>> qualified as PMC so that they can approve releases and it will never really
>> be possible to exit from incubation.
>>
>> I suggest we start with the contributions first.
>>
>
> Can you name the 3-5 active PMC members who will vet the next release?
>
>
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Ted Dunning 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 10:15 PM, Swapnil Daingade <
>>> swapnil.daing...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 In that case I suggest we not retire

 >> "Darin - yes we've done more planning internally, and we do plan on
 having some engineers spend some time on this project, doing some (minor)
 maintenance for our customers."

>>>
>>> The problem is that there is essentially no real community that is
>>> happening.
>>>
>>> None of the engineers previously working on this will be working on this
>>> now. And that sort of situation isn't going to change.
>>>
>>> That means that it will always be a distraction to get committers
>>> qualified as PMC so that they can approve releases and it will never really
>>> be possible to exit from incubation.
>>>
>>> Outside of the Apache limits, we can have a much more flexible structure
>>> of who can commit. We don't plan to limit who can commit. In fact, we will
>>> probably make it more open than an Apache project normally is.
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: Is Apache Myriad dead?

[Swapnil Daingade]

>> The problem is that there is essentially no real community that is
happening.

retiring doesn't help that

>> None of the engineers previously working on this will be working on this
now. And that sort of situation isn't going to change.

Events at MapR contributed to this situation. MapR scaled back its
involvement in Myriad and all its committers left.
MapR is of course free to take its own decisions. But it sounds like there
is interest in working on Myriad, just not under the ASF umbrella.
I feel without ASF, one company will have too much control on Myriad.

Ted, you yourself warned us against this
http://www.zdnet.com/article/hadoop-veteran-ted-dunning-when-open-source-is-anything-but-open/

>>That means that it will always be a distraction to get committers
qualified as PMC so that they can approve releases and it will never really
be possible to exit from incubation.

I suggest we start with the contributions first.

Regards
Swapnil


On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Ted Dunning  wrote:

>
> On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 10:15 PM, Swapnil Daingade <
> swapnil.daing...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In that case I suggest we not retire
>>
>> >> "Darin - yes we've done more planning internally, and we do plan on
>> having some engineers spend some time on this project, doing some (minor)
>> maintenance for our customers."
>>
>
> The problem is that there is essentially no real community that is
> happening.
>
> None of the engineers previously working on this will be working on this
> now. And that sort of situation isn't going to change.
>
> That means that it will always be a distraction to get committers
> qualified as PMC so that they can approve releases and it will never really
> be possible to exit from incubation.
>
> Outside of the Apache limits, we can have a much more flexible structure
> of who can commit. We don't plan to limit who can commit. In fact, we will
> probably make it more open than an Apache project normally is.
>
>

Re: Is Apache Myriad dead?

[Darin Johnson]

Swapnil, the reasons Ted mentioned are precisely the reasons I've stopped
committing to Myriad (we're running a fork).  Apache is more overhead than
this project needs and actually hinders the project from developing to a
maturity level where a community can form.

Darin


On Jun 5, 2017 5:53 PM, "Ted Dunning"  wrote:


On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 10:15 PM, Swapnil Daingade <
swapnil.daing...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In that case I suggest we not retire
>
> >> "Darin - yes we've done more planning internally, and we do plan on
> having some engineers spend some time on this project, doing some (minor)
> maintenance for our customers."
>

The problem is that there is essentially no real community that is
happening.

None of the engineers previously working on this will be working on this
now. And that sort of situation isn't going to change.

That means that it will always be a distraction to get committers qualified
as PMC so that they can approve releases and it will never really be
possible to exit from incubation.

Outside of the Apache limits, we can have a much more flexible structure of
who can commit. We don't plan to limit who can commit. In fact, we will
probably make it more open than an Apache project normally is.

Re: Is Apache Myriad dead?

[Ted Dunning]

On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 10:15 PM, Swapnil Daingade <
swapnil.daing...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In that case I suggest we not retire
>
> >> "Darin - yes we've done more planning internally, and we do plan on
> having some engineers spend some time on this project, doing some (minor)
> maintenance for our customers."
>

The problem is that there is essentially no real community that is
happening.

None of the engineers previously working on this will be working on this
now. And that sort of situation isn't going to change.

That means that it will always be a distraction to get committers qualified
as PMC so that they can approve releases and it will never really be
possible to exit from incubation.

Outside of the Apache limits, we can have a much more flexible structure of
who can commit. We don't plan to limit who can commit. In fact, we will
probably make it more open than an Apache project normally is.

Re: Is Apache Myriad dead?

[Swapnil Daingade]

In that case I suggest we not retire

>> "Darin - yes we've done more planning internally, and we do plan on
having some engineers spend some time on this project, doing some (minor)
maintenance for our customers."

Regards
Swapnil


On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 7:34 AM, Will Ochandarena <wochandar...@mapr.com>
wrote:

> Darin - yes we've done more planning internally, and we do plan on having
> some engineers spend some time on this project, doing some (minor)
> maintenance for our customers.
>
>
> That said, given the overall project community has waned over the last
> year, we aren't opposed to letting the project sunset, doing our
> maintenance outside of Apache (but still in open source).
>
>
> To that end, we (MapR) happily volunteer to take ownership of the code,
> keeping it in our git repo<https://github.com/mapr>.  If it happens to
> pick up steam with a diverse community, we'll look at submitting it back to
> the incubator.
>
>
> Since i'm not a committer I'm not sure how involved I can be with the
> sunsetting process, but i'm happy to help however I can.  Perhaps Ted and
> the other mentors can comment on what the next steps would be.
>
>
> Will
>
>
> 
> From: Darin Johnson <dbjohnson1...@gmail.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 3, 2017 1:07:48 PM
> To: Dev
> Cc: lrese...@apache.org; tdunn...@apache.org; dan...@apache.org;
> b...@apache.org; Will Ochandarena
> Subject: Re: Is Apache Myriad dead?
>
> Will, any update we've got an Apache review and I'm planning to recommend
> retirement.
>
> On May 3, 2017 10:50 AM, "Will Ochandarena" <wochandar...@mapr.com wochandar...@mapr.com>> wrote:
> All - sorry for the delay in commenting.  We (MapR) are in the midst of
> roadmap planning for Myriad and other projects.
>
>
> Please give us a couple of weeks to plan our resourcing.  I'll come back
> soon with a proposal for how we take the project forward.
>
>
> Will Ochandarena
>
> MapR Product Management
>
> 
> From: Adam Bordelon <a...@mesosphere.io<mailto:a...@mesosphere.io>>
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 8:40:30 PM
> To: dev@myriad.incubator.apache.org<mailto:dev@myriad.incubator.apache.org
> >
> Cc: dan...@apache.org<mailto:dan...@apache.org>; tdunn...@apache.org
> <mailto:tdunn...@apache.org>; lrese...@apache.org<mailto:lre
> se...@apache.org>; b...@apache.org<mailto:b...@apache.org>
> Subject: Re: Is Apache Myriad dead?
>
> Maybe not dead, but it's in a coma, and I'm not sure if/when it'll wake up
> again.
> I'm not opposed to retiring, except that moving off of Apache infra sounds
> like work.
>
> On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 5:46 AM, Klaus Ma <k8...@icloud.com<mailto:k82cn
> @icloud.com>> wrote:
>
> > +1 on retire
> >
> > > On 28 Apr 2017, at 20:33, Darin Johnson <dbjohnson1...@gmail.com<
> mailto:dbjohnson1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think that's an accurate assessment, as much as I'd like to say
> > otherwise.
> > >
> > > I'd suggest we start a vote to retire.
> > >
> > > Darin
> > >
> > > On Apr 28, 2017 5:52 AM, "Niels Basjes" <ni...@basjes.nl<mailto:Niels@
> basjes.nl>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > A few weeks ago at the Dataworks/Hadoop Summit in Munich I discussed
> the
> > > upcoming docker support in Yarn (Hadoop 3.0) and I mentioned Apache
> > Myriad
> > > as a seemingly related project.
> > > Someone then stated that Myriad is a dead project and I should avoid
> it.
> > >
> > > Out of curiosity to check the validity of that statement I had a look
> at
> > > the project today and I found that
> > > - In 2017 only 2 jira tickets were touched (actually 3, but 1 is a
> > > duplicate)
> > > - The last commit to any branch I could find was about 7 months ago.
> The
> > > last JIRA ticket was 'Fixed' around the same time.
> > > - The dev mailing (when ignoring these jira issues and ASF generic
> > > messages) is also almost silent.
> > >
> > > To me this looks like just about everyone involved lost interest in the
> > > project about 6 months ago.
> > >
> > > So can I conclude this project is actually dead?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Best regards
> > >
> > > Niels Basjes
> > > nielsbas...@apache.org<mailto:nielsbas...@apache.org>
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Is Apache Myriad dead?

[Will Ochandarena]

Darin - yes we've done more planning internally, and we do plan on having some 
engineers spend some time on this project, doing some (minor) maintenance for 
our customers.


That said, given the overall project community has waned over the last year, we 
aren't opposed to letting the project sunset, doing our maintenance outside of 
Apache (but still in open source).


To that end, we (MapR) happily volunteer to take ownership of the code, keeping 
it in our git repo<https://github.com/mapr>.  If it happens to pick up steam 
with a diverse community, we'll look at submitting it back to the incubator.


Since i'm not a committer I'm not sure how involved I can be with the 
sunsetting process, but i'm happy to help however I can.  Perhaps Ted and the 
other mentors can comment on what the next steps would be.


Will



From: Darin Johnson <dbjohnson1...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 3, 2017 1:07:48 PM
To: Dev
Cc: lrese...@apache.org; tdunn...@apache.org; dan...@apache.org; 
b...@apache.org; Will Ochandarena
Subject: Re: Is Apache Myriad dead?

Will, any update we've got an Apache review and I'm planning to recommend 
retirement.

On May 3, 2017 10:50 AM, "Will Ochandarena" 
<wochandar...@mapr.com<mailto:wochandar...@mapr.com>> wrote:
All - sorry for the delay in commenting.  We (MapR) are in the midst of roadmap 
planning for Myriad and other projects.


Please give us a couple of weeks to plan our resourcing.  I'll come back soon 
with a proposal for how we take the project forward.


Will Ochandarena

MapR Product Management


From: Adam Bordelon <a...@mesosphere.io<mailto:a...@mesosphere.io>>
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 8:40:30 PM
To: dev@myriad.incubator.apache.org<mailto:dev@myriad.incubator.apache.org>
Cc: dan...@apache.org<mailto:dan...@apache.org>; 
tdunn...@apache.org<mailto:tdunn...@apache.org>; 
lrese...@apache.org<mailto:lrese...@apache.org>; 
b...@apache.org<mailto:b...@apache.org>
Subject: Re: Is Apache Myriad dead?

Maybe not dead, but it's in a coma, and I'm not sure if/when it'll wake up
again.
I'm not opposed to retiring, except that moving off of Apache infra sounds
like work.

On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 5:46 AM, Klaus Ma 
<k8...@icloud.com<mailto:k8...@icloud.com>> wrote:

> +1 on retire
>
> > On 28 Apr 2017, at 20:33, Darin Johnson 
> > <dbjohnson1...@gmail.com<mailto:dbjohnson1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > I think that's an accurate assessment, as much as I'd like to say
> otherwise.
> >
> > I'd suggest we start a vote to retire.
> >
> > Darin
> >
> > On Apr 28, 2017 5:52 AM, "Niels Basjes" 
> > <ni...@basjes.nl<mailto:ni...@basjes.nl>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > A few weeks ago at the Dataworks/Hadoop Summit in Munich I discussed the
> > upcoming docker support in Yarn (Hadoop 3.0) and I mentioned Apache
> Myriad
> > as a seemingly related project.
> > Someone then stated that Myriad is a dead project and I should avoid it.
> >
> > Out of curiosity to check the validity of that statement I had a look at
> > the project today and I found that
> > - In 2017 only 2 jira tickets were touched (actually 3, but 1 is a
> > duplicate)
> > - The last commit to any branch I could find was about 7 months ago. The
> > last JIRA ticket was 'Fixed' around the same time.
> > - The dev mailing (when ignoring these jira issues and ASF generic
> > messages) is also almost silent.
> >
> > To me this looks like just about everyone involved lost interest in the
> > project about 6 months ago.
> >
> > So can I conclude this project is actually dead?
> >
> > --
> > Best regards
> >
> > Niels Basjes
> > nielsbas...@apache.org<mailto:nielsbas...@apache.org>
>
>

Re: Is Apache Myriad dead?

[Darin Johnson]

That sounds OK to me, I'd like to see Myriad continue but realistically I
can't support it on my own.

Darin

On Wed, May 3, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Will Ochandarena <wochandar...@mapr.com>
wrote:

> All - sorry for the delay in commenting.  We (MapR) are in the midst of
> roadmap planning for Myriad and other projects.
>
>
> Please give us a couple of weeks to plan our resourcing.  I'll come back
> soon with a proposal for how we take the project forward.
>
>
> Will Ochandarena
>
> MapR Product Management
>
> 
> From: Adam Bordelon <a...@mesosphere.io>
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 8:40:30 PM
> To: dev@myriad.incubator.apache.org
> Cc: dan...@apache.org; tdunn...@apache.org; lrese...@apache.org;
> b...@apache.org
> Subject: Re: Is Apache Myriad dead?
>
> Maybe not dead, but it's in a coma, and I'm not sure if/when it'll wake up
> again.
> I'm not opposed to retiring, except that moving off of Apache infra sounds
> like work.
>
> On Fri, Apr 28, 2017 at 5:46 AM, Klaus Ma <k8...@icloud.com> wrote:
>
> > +1 on retire
> >
> > > On 28 Apr 2017, at 20:33, Darin Johnson <dbjohnson1...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > I think that's an accurate assessment, as much as I'd like to say
> > otherwise.
> > >
> > > I'd suggest we start a vote to retire.
> > >
> > > Darin
> > >
> > > On Apr 28, 2017 5:52 AM, "Niels Basjes" <ni...@basjes.nl> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > A few weeks ago at the Dataworks/Hadoop Summit in Munich I discussed
> the
> > > upcoming docker support in Yarn (Hadoop 3.0) and I mentioned Apache
> > Myriad
> > > as a seemingly related project.
> > > Someone then stated that Myriad is a dead project and I should avoid
> it.
> > >
> > > Out of curiosity to check the validity of that statement I had a look
> at
> > > the project today and I found that
> > > - In 2017 only 2 jira tickets were touched (actually 3, but 1 is a
> > > duplicate)
> > > - The last commit to any branch I could find was about 7 months ago.
> The
> > > last JIRA ticket was 'Fixed' around the same time.
> > > - The dev mailing (when ignoring these jira issues and ASF generic
> > > messages) is also almost silent.
> > >
> > > To me this looks like just about everyone involved lost interest in the
> > > project about 6 months ago.
> > >
> > > So can I conclude this project is actually dead?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Best regards
> > >
> > > Niels Basjes
> > > nielsbas...@apache.org
> >
> >
>